Yet another bit question

[Icecapade]

So in my searching I'm trying to find the right bit. As it has become painfully apparent that I'm cheating with my beloved pelham. Fine, I'll give.

So we went from a two piece basic D ring snaffle... that we fought and fought and fought. I said OK, I'll try a loose ring french link... ordered a size smaller than what I had in the past as my little 13 hander seems to be overwhelmed by the number 5... this bit though seems awefully fat.

And he is 'better' in the sense that he doesn't hollow and do the Arab brace, nose parallel to the ground bracing (a result I believe from the 2 piece poking him)

He seems OK with it as far as fit, it just barely clears the sides of his mouth but more likely to lean and brace through the underside of the neck it seems and when he pitches a fit he really just leans and braces badly. But then again... you put this horse in a snaffle and he has never respected it... he ever since I have had him has braced on it.

What would be the next step as far as bits are concerned, oh dressage guro's, I do not know the answer to this question. Jump to a smaller thinner three piece? Someone suggest a slow twist, which I'm not sure I like the idea of jumping to a twist, or if they are even legal (are they??? I am a baby in the legal world of dressage)

[Ambrey]

A twist is not legal.

Your pony sounds a lot like mine- this is the bit I got him:

http://www.doversaddlery.com/product.asp?splid=0608RRT&pn=X1-01769&bhcd2=1227306980

but to be honest, the bracing is a training/riding issue and not a bit issue in our case.

[JackSprats Mom]

I have to agree with Ambrey in this sounds more like a training issue then a bit issue BUT having said that some horses do prefer some types of bits over others.

I would raid your trainers tack room and try a variety of bits if you can as buying them each time can be costly.

My Arab loves his baucher and hates his loose ring snaffle. I've occassionally tried swapping him around but he just goes so much better and more consistently in his baucher then any other bit so now I leave it.

However if this is more training them bit dislike you'll find the same bracing problem in almost any other bit. Just the stronger the bit (like a pelham) the more you can fake it.

[jcotton]

You may want to try a happy mouth straight bar snaffle (similar to a mullen mouth type). He may work with an eggbutt. Sometimes loose rings send too much information to their mouth. I have a horse that does the same thing yours is doing and have been in bit dilemma mode with him for awhile. He is currently at the trainers and she feels that an eggbutt french link will work best for him. His problem is he is narrow mouthed as well as low palated, so he needs a 4.75 but not too thin. And a single joint does not allow room in his mouth with his low palate.

As said before, borrow bits if you can before buying a tack room full. Although some think who dies with the most bits wins or change it to tools, toys, fabric or whatever.......

[Icecapade]

having had him his whole life and riding over hundreds of miles... I'm disinclined to say its training.

*but* I have not been in a dressage ring, just good riding with solid basics regarding that.... so I'm not willing to write that off completely... I hate to think it but its possible. two weeks and I'll have my second lesson, its a group lesson so less likely to be uber productive but the last lesson was OK.... and the trainer suggested something thinner regarding his behavior, maybe I can find some key to starting the unlocking process for whatever the issue is!

I don't have a full time trainer to raid their tack bin... but have had a few offers for the one they suggested (which apparently is like a 75 $ bit. gagh me) I make enough to support my horse and lessons every say 6-8 weeks, so solving it if its a training will be rough!

I'll look into those though, see if anyone at my barn has them to let me play with in the near future! I'm not happy with the idea of changing so many variables so quickly... playing with lessons and development some stuff is new.. and then playing with new bits too... to much margin for missing the real problem I think, but it needs work.. I can't keep going with a stiff bracing horse... breaks my heart and my temper!

[SimplySensational]

My friend had a TB gelding who used to HANGGGG alllllll the time. Really, really heavy. It was a training issue for him as well, but once we switched the big from a regular rubber loosering (thick/fat) snaffle to an eggbutt (thinner) french link, he was MILES better than before, even without too much 're-training.' Something thinner usually works better for most horses that hang because there just isn't as much to hang on and it's not as comfortable (in my experience anyways!). I also found my myler bit worked wonders for my guy who never was THAT heavy on my hands, but not light either. he's great now after getting one of those.

[pintopiaffe]

Have you tried a simple mullen mouth eggbutt? Some horses simply prefer a mullen. HS has a loosering mullen which was quite literally a miracle bit for my mare.

The comfy contact by Neue Schule, and the 'comfort mouth' by Myler are legal in the right cheeks. (full cheek, dee & eggbutt with no 'hooks', loosering & baucher)

A baucher hangs like a pelham. I had a mullen baucher made for me that someone just ground the shanks off the type of pelham my horse adores. Alas, it's not quite *it* for him.

The curved arms of a JP also seem to agree with horses who like pelhams, they run a tad thicker than mylers, with a more gentle curve.

There are lots of options. I think it's part science, part intuition, and part art to find the right bit. But my theory is, it's their mouth, they should have a choice.

[JackSprats Mom]

I'm not happy with the idea of changing so many variables so quickly... playing with lessons and development some stuff is new.. and then playing with new bits too... to much margin for missing the real problem I think, but it needs work.. I can't keep going with a stiff bracing horse... breaks my heart and my temper!

Did this behavior just start when you changed bits? Or was it there before? At least that would narrow it down. If it just started then you really have to look closely at whether the pelham just gave you leverage to hide it?

Also don't judge a bit on one ride. I would suggest riding in it for a week so see how he settles into it.

Check with your tack store- mine rents bits out so you can try before you buy which might help you. Also narrow done a few obviously different types to see which he seems better in, for example- loose ring, baucher, mullen mouth.

It can be hard with bits. I guess the other thing to take into account it what you are trying to achieve at the end of all this? If you don't plan on showing and he goes well in the pelham and your trainer doesn't feel like its just masking the issue then why change?

[Icecapade]

any time I ever rode a snaffle he braced... ever since he was much younger. i can take him in a bosal... I double bridle, almost anything, and he won't brace, but the snaffle goes in and especially out doing on the trail, its the neck up back hollow I'm not going to listen to a damn word you say, it was always a fight. Never with any other bit...

which is why I just stopped riding him in a snaffle, it didn't make sense to fight him espcially doing endurance at the time, I need him to be relaxed reponsive and spending engery going forward not being a stallion and/or stubborn.

It seems the more arena work we do (when we worked at home it was all trail work, even all technique was on the trials) the worse he gets. Shrug. I've had the snaffle for three weeks, the trainer I had a lesson with hopped on and they got into a bit and he finally relented to the task at hand but was very stiff and it was quiet obvious. He was the one who suggested... its awfully fat and he is never going to have any problem bracing on it... you might try something else. I will continue to ride him in the three piece but I'm going to start a game plan for rotating through bits I think. I'll go to my next lesson on the 13th in the three piece and see how that goes with the work I took from said last lesson. If there is no improvement I'll begin bit swapping over the course of a few months I would imagine.

Anyway thanks guys! =) I'll keep you all posted this is a new process for getting him to be not an arab and try to relax and stretch ALL the time, not just when he really needs to be athletic on hills or whatever.

[pintopiaffe]

BOY, it sounds like you need one of the different snaffles... If he's Arab, it's not unusual. They just don't have room in their mouths for the traditional 'hollow mouth snaffle.'

FWIW, I have a couple who HATE looserings. I used to ride everything in a loosering. It was how dressage was done. Then I found out that some horses really prefer the stability and the way other bits hang (i.e. a fullcheek)

Some mail-order places do trials/rental as well. Pelham Saddlery (get it? :p ) used to have trials/rentals of Mylers.

If you search my username, there was a long and (got) heated thread about bits, bitting, horses who prefer pelhams, etc. I schooled my guy quite a bit one summer in the pelham. Mostly with the curb rein tied up. But he went SO MUCH BETTER in it. And what correct schooling with a relaxed, happy horse did was develop the right muscles and strength. Then when he was stronger, I found a (baucher) bit he was ok in. Not 'like butter' like in the pelham, but good 'enough.' We've worked more, I pop the double on him from time to time--he goes super well in the double, and goes better after... And after 3 or 4 years in a Baucher, I just got a sleeve-ring with curved arms that he seems to like. For various reasons it was time for a bit with a little more movement... HE likes the stability of the Baucher, but my teacher felt it was time to try something else. We're trying. So far so good.

Anyway... you have options. Unless your teacher is completely against starting out in the pelham, I'd use it for now. Tie up the curb reins or remove them. If the horse isn't going well on just the snaffle reins of the pelham, THEN there is a bigger issue which will take going back to the beginning. But if he's happy on the snaffle rein... learn some of the new work... get stronger (both of you!) and as you can, try some of the less traditional--but legal--mouthpieces.

IF your instructor INSISTS on a 'legal now' bit, then he or she *should* be willing to help you FIND one.

If you ride over the winter, I would be happy to loan you a couple of mine to try for the price of mailing. *I* won't be using them in the winter. I have some of this and some of that. ;) <hi, my name is pintopiaffe and I'm a bitaholic... :uhoh: :winkgrin: >

[Icecapade]

lol I love it.

yeah he is tiny, and I never really figured about mouth size too much except the snaffle pinch problem. His pehlam he just dealt with... its by far my favorite to ride in as a whole. He really goes well in it... I spent a day riding, I had three session and I started with a heavy braided hackamore... just for basics. Moved to the snaffle... in the afternoon session I switched to my pehlam. the difference was amazing, which is why its frustrating (I remember several threads about that bit I had just gotton on here I think at that point) that its so a. frowned upon and b. not legal. But who am I to buck the system. We will probably continue to ride trail and train long rides in it though. I can ride him off just the snaffle fairly well, its been a while, but we played that game before. (I do ride w/ the double set)

I might take you up on that offer! I don't know of any places locally that will do that. So we might play the bit swap game. sounds like a round robin or something.

I don't have a consistent trainer... I'm just starting that, so it was merely a suggestion from someone who rode him and worked with me for about two hours... like I said... we will try to consolidate the issue before really diving into, but I like to do my research and make sure I'm prepared... forwarned is forarmed they say!

... hi...icecapade... and I'm becoming a bitaholic. ;)

[Ambrey]

any time I ever rode a snaffle he braced... ever since he was much younger. i can take him in a bosal... I double bridle, almost anything, and he won't brace, but the snaffle goes in and especially out doing on the trail, its the neck up back hollow I'm not going to listen to a damn word you say, it was always a fight. Never with any other bit...


The reason I say it's a training issue is that he isn't bracing from discomfort, he's bracing because he can and he wants to ;) At least, for the most part that's the issue with my pony. He's just never been trained not to (or in my pony's case, he has been but has conveniently forgotten).

That is what my trainer is working on now with my pony. Of course, he'll still brace if the hands get too hard on his mouth, but my trainer is making great progress so at least we know he CAN accept steady contact.

This pony is so soft mouthed I've never even considered putting him in a pelham, though.

I'm also learning a lot about resistance on my big guy- I do ride him in a pelham, but he resists in a different way. When I am in the zone, I can get past his resistance without using the curb rein at all. It does take effort though, and keeping with him at every stride. And, of course, he's been in training even longer than the pony ;)

[partlycloudy]

You can change bits til the cows come home, but if the horse doesn't accept the two most basic fundamentals of dressage you'll get nowhere. they are:
1) accept the outside rein contact
2) yield to the leg

Every.single, horse. I've sat on that has 'issues' it all boils down to these two things. Doesn't matter if it is resisting, bracing, running ,bucking or what have you, they are all just symptoms of the same problem.
Put your horse in a snaffle,put it on the lunge in sidereins or vienna reins, send it forward with your whip and teach it these two basic things and I will guarantee you (if YOU know how to ride) the 'problems' will disappear.

[goeslikestink]

You can change bits til the cows come home, but if the horse doesn't accept the two most basic fundamentals of dressage you'll get nowhere. they are:
1) accept the outside rein contact
2) yield to the leg

Every.single, horse. I've sat on that has 'issues' it all boils down to these two things. Doesn't matter if it is resisting, bracing, running ,bucking or what have you, they are all just symptoms of the same problem.
Put your horse in a snaffle,put it on the lunge in sidereins or vienna reins, send it forward with your whip and teach it these two basic things and I will guarantee you (if YOU know how to ride) the 'problems' will disappear.


execellent post

[goeslikestink]

So in my searching I'm trying to find the right bit. As it has become painfully apparent that I'm cheating with my beloved pelham. Fine, I'll give.

So we went from a two piece basic D ring snaffle... that we fought and fought and fought. I said OK, I'll try a loose ring french link... ordered a size smaller than what I had in the past as my little 13 hander seems to be overwhelmed by the number 5... this bit though seems awefully fat.

And he is 'better' in the sense that he doesn't hollow and do the Arab brace, nose parallel to the ground bracing (a result I believe from the 2 piece poking him)

He seems OK with it as far as fit, it just barely clears the sides of his mouth but more likely to lean and brace through the underside of the neck it seems and when he pitches a fit he really just leans and braces badly. But then again... you put this horse in a snaffle and he has never respected it... he ever since I have had him has braced on it.

What would be the next step as far as bits are concerned, oh dressage guro's, I do not know the answer to this question. Jump to a smaller thinner three piece? Someone suggest a slow twist, which I'm not sure I like the idea of jumping to a twist, or if they are even legal (are they??? I am a baby in the legal world of dressage)



the bit is only servere as the hands tha use them if you having problesm with the horse advading the bit its down to bad hands

read this link and take note
http://www.meredithmanor.com/features/articles/faith/fixing_bit_evasions.asp

and now read this link - has all the bits and nose bands with working diagrams of how they all act on a horse so i want you think of hands and bit connection

http://www.sustainabledressage.com/tack/bridle.php#kineton


follow links in posts in this thread see your not alone
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=173434&highlight=leaning+in+the+saddle

and theres another called leaning in the saddle with simular problems or
bits problems
tack is the 1st place as you have done to look for pain issues but that includes the bridle
ie bit and hands as this can efect the horses way of going as i said above the other normal pain related stuff is teeth , and general care think
the horse has been moved so has to make freinds again all things have changed ie home feed enviroment stable paddock, light( as in sdidferent part of usa light might go down quicker or his stable might be dimly lit or stable to small for the size of horse he is)
could be hes in a bissy part of the yard or to quiet part of the yard all this makes for stress on ahorse and his only way saying to you something hes not happy with is to retailate so look at his new home walk in his stable and see what he sees is it windy area is drafty is it open has he or is in with field chums think horse
the quickest way to make ahorse comfy in new home is to do what normal ie
a rountine work is the only thing that normally stays the same, but in your case he hasnt had it consitantly so hes grumpy as he has no foundation to build his self asteem from
ie no perticular rountine a horse loves rountine loves to work they dont like lying about with nthing to do
your horse was 1st level which the horse knows his job hes more expreinced than you
so try and make him more settled by a better rountine and that starts by exercising him constitantly

next- look at your hands--and position stop fighting him and learn to relax you cant balance if your not relaxed and will tense this will transmit to the horse directly
and fiddling with hsi face or head is just sending him confused signals of direction which he objects to
confusion, in ahorses mind is a fear factor 1st is to flee 2nd is to advade you by doing what hes doing

[Icecapade]

execellent post



Thats what I am really troubled with... he is fairly well trained for an 'unschooled' horse. I can do leg yields and turn him by just looking over my shoulder. We are stiff to the right which is either new, or I have totally missed it in the 15 years that I have had him.

I've never had a great lower leg (thanks to years of endurance riding) but on the flip side that has given me a very independent seat... years of trail trimming means you sit and stay on the horse on the side of the mountain whilst you trim branches well above your head.

I'm under the impression that in doing mostly trail work he was expertly and athletically able to avoid and pretend. Now that we are chained to an arena, he can't hide anymore.

Thank for the links... I had not read the first one... I had read the second, and perused the third from another article you were addressing. I really think its avoiding b/c he is a little bastard like that.... and I don't have the skill sto truly drive him into where he needs to go. But... i'm not sure! I'd post a video... but one. I"m scared. and two I have no one to hold while I ride!

On the upside... I'm excited that I believe I have found a trainer who is not far, not expensive and competing I-1. Which is well above me, so I'm pretty sure she can help us!

[Ambrey]

I don't think it's as dramatic as all that :) Just think of it this way- the pelham was always a shortcut, and now that you want to advance you're going to have to go back and retrace some steps. He just doesn't have the basics of working in a snaffle, and you might not have the basics of riding him in a snaffle (or maybe you do, I don't know).

Hopefully the trainer will be able to help you :)

[Icecapade]

lol... he probably doesn't really. I think the original training was natural horseman ship style stuff to start...

he deals... and because I have basics, but not finesse with it, we are probably clashing. we shall see!

I"m hoping with the trainer! =)

thanks for the help guys

[Ambrey]

Hey, I'm with ya. It's a learning process, you have to be in it for the long haul :)

I just have so many things to work on personally that I haven't even moved on to the "riding him in a snaffle" part ;)