help ! horse dragging toe thoughts ?? UPDATE found source help

[symphony123]

Hello
I have been a long time reader of this forum and have found it to be extremely educational i was hoping for some insight on my mare !
Background oh horse
Mare is a 15 yr old ottb competed in hunters , has been bred once
I have owned her since she was three and throughout that time she has been the hardest horse i have owned, unruly and attitude galore.
I have had a vets look at her , chiro and massage with no outcome.
She drags her right hind and wears her toe off she used to be quite forward and on the right even more so , she now is less reluctant to go forward.
We were at the vet last week for lameness exam did flexions , flouroscapy (sp) of right hind , blocked right front x-ray’s all the way to the knee and have found nothing. any idea's ??
this has been driving me crazy !

[pharmgirl]

So, the stifle was ruled out? If so, I am more inclined to think SI. Sometimes it's not completely apparent even with chiro, but my boy does that when his SI isn't right.

[symphony123]

hi
stifle was ruled out , hocks , saddle fit , i have had a chiro out throughout
the years and no results.

[pharmgirl]

At this point, I would suggest possibly getting a bone scan done to see what might be an issue. It doesn't show everything, but might help localize where the issue is. With my guy, most signs pointed towards the SI but we did a scan just in case- it ended up showing the SI to be his main problem.

[CanterQueen]

Has anyone thought to test for EPM? My gelding had what looked like a stifle issue and it turned out to be early stage EPM. Might want to think about that - IMHO. ;)

[Simkie]

Yep, sounds like it's time for a bone scan.

I just went through figuring out a mystery lameness in my horse. Turns out it was bony changes in her neck. I think it's probably pretty likely that WAY more horses have issues in the cervical spine than previously thought. Perhaps imaging the neck would be useful in your case.

[Serigraph]

I'm interested in replies to this too, as I am leasing a horse that does this.

OP, does your horse do this at the trot only? Mine does and he is not really wearing his toe. I can feel a weak stifle (slips sometimes) though when I ride

[symphony123]

hi thanks guys
I appreciate the idea's
We are going to be looking at the si , this has been long journey
a previous vet years ago suggested i put her down, through massage
chiro and lots of proper riding she came sound and showed competetively
although always had a slight hint of it and lots of outburst from her.
Now the hind always drags regardless

[CanterQueen]

OP, does your horse do this at the trot only? Mine does and he is not really wearing his toe. I can feel a weak stifle (slips sometimes) though when I ride

Again, I'd suggest testing for EPM. My gelding still has lasting effects from his EPM even though we caught it early. He "loses" his leg occasionally while under saddle or when making small circles.

We even sent him to horsey swim therapy camp over the summer and while he built some great muscle mass, he still has issues with that hind leg.

[symphony123]

hi
she doesn’t lose her hind she consistently drags it and wears the toe. Very apparent at the trot , at the canter she seems to be more
forward on the rien that she drags (her right side)
I first though stifle or hock but we have ruled that out

[CanterQueen]

Symphony, My bad, I didn't say that my gelding drags his toe as well. Wears off the toe on that side -- farrier has been squaring off his hinds to compensate for the wear. The EPM makes it hard for him to completely pick up that hind leg. He also tends to favor one side under saddle.

Good luck with your horse!!

[symphony123]

canter queen
thanks , im hoping for the best of course. I have been through alot with this mare over the course of 10years.
What would be other signs of epm ?
the more i research the more to me it sounds like a si issue
but i think im hoping so at least we finally know something

[CanterQueen]

Symphony,
Google EPM in horses and you should get lots of information. I do know that it gets worse with time and some horses have to be put down because it attacks the neuro system. Treatment (at least through my vet) was lengthy and expensive. And even tho we caught it early in my young gelding (he was six), he still has permanent lingering damage. Rideable and sound, but not back 100%.

[symphony123]

Thanks will do.
Can people tell me about their experinces with si injections ?

[Serigraph]

CanterQueen - can you tell me about YOUR horses symptoms of EPM?

[goeslikestink]

hi
she doesn’t lose her hind she consistently drags it and wears the toe. Very apparent at the trot , at the canter she seems to be more
forward on the rien that she drags (her right side)
I first though stifle or hock but we have ruled that out

bog or bone spavins give a false illusion of bad back and also makes the horse drag its toes on the fronts as the hinds cant get underneath the horse

[lstevenson]

HOW have you ruled out hock or stifle issues? You say they blocked the RF up to the knee. What about the RH??

[RiverBendPol]

I'd be looking at the S-I also. When my Mikey (EPSM) blew his S-I, the hind toe drag was the detail that clued us into what to study.

[Hopeful Hunter]

Have you tested for Lyme Disease?

Lyme often presents as sorta NQR, and I have seen it present as toe dragging once. Might be worth a test....

[Kit]

I'm thinking SI as well. Didn't your vet check the sacroilliac? I'd get a good Bowen person to check her out as they might find something.

[Concetta]

Stifles are the first thing to come to mind,then possibly something in her back,also...you could check for EPM and also Lyme,lymphangitis etc? also reluctance to go forward could be ulcer related as well

[dbts]

I strongly suggest focusing on the SI as well. The toe dragging is a huge clue pointing to an SI problem. If injections are going to be done, do both sides at once. This covers all bases.

[symphony123]

hi
Again thank you everyone for all your replies. The vet in the last visit did not check the si he intially thought hocks or stifle when that was ruled out he thought front possibly nivicular or knee's , all that has been ruled out so we planned to take her home shoe her make sure she had no bone bruising so now off to the vet tomorrow again to do back ultra-sound. scared and excited all at the same time. I rode her yesterday lightly w/t/c and just love riding her really hope that we find something so i can start showing her again in the hunters. Anyone who has injected the si how long was it before you saw results ? did you work with a chiropractor as well as the vet or possibly massage ?

[symphony123]

Hello
so spent all day yesterday at the vets he is convinced the toe dragging on the right hind is due to a right front lameness, we blocked everything in the front right until there was nothing left to block. still has the hind lameness and a slight head bobbing. horse is going back on friday for reblocking as he wants to be sure that every block works.
I have uploaded a video of her trotting on the lunge.
Any thoughts ?
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=wGvE0iTeMbIhttp://http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=wGvE0iTeMbI

[Serigraph]

Nothing to add except thanks for posting that video. My lease horse is doing the same thing on the right hind, except his is not as exaggerated as your horse. My horse will not trot under saddle though.

Have they done any blood tests?

[symphony123]

Hi
no we have not done blood tests she is going back on friday for re blocking the right front. I personally do not believe it is the right front. (in my un professional opinion )

[lstevenson]

The horse is definitely lame on the RF.

[tikidoc]

My horse had a similar problem this summer. Six yo WB gelding. Started dragging his right rear toe at the trot. Had the vet out, who said he flexed 1/5 on the right rear. Hock films clear, stifle films clear. They referred us up to the sport horse vet at Hagyard's in Lexington KY. Side note, my truck died on the way up and a trainer I take lessons with and his wife were nice enough to rescue me (I was planning to stay with them for one night) and it took me 5 days to get home. Anyways, the vet there re-Xrayed hocks and stifles, all fine. But said he though he was off on the right front (I didn't see it, neither did anyone else) so he blocked his right front coffin joint and the horse trotted off sound, no rear toe drag. The Xrays of the right front were pretty much OK but the bottom edge of the coffin bone looked rough.

He injected both front coffins and both hocks (he explained the logic of doing hocks - it had something to do with weight redistribution) and told me to get the horse shod in front. He didn't think we would have to do injections again. It was a dry summer, hard ground and it may just be inflammation from the concussion, that shoes should help a lot. Horse has been sound since.

I still don't understand why pain in the right front would manifest with dragging the right hind, but you can't argue with the results of blocking the right front.

[Posting Trot]

Interesting video.

A bone scan might be a good idea if you can swing it financially. It will tell you, at least, what isn't the problem even if you don't get an absolute diagnosis.

What do her feet look like? Her feet may not hurt (if they did the blocking would have helped), but if they're unbalanced, they can throw off the whole body and cause all over body soreness. If you could post pix of her feet (taken more or less from the ground level--i.e., put the camera on the ground), it might be helpful.

Does she flinch her back when you run your fingernail alongside the spine? That is an indication of back pain which can cause all sorts of problems. If she's all over body sore I'd go back to investigating the feet.

Or, and I don't know if this is a problem where you live or where the mare came from, but all over bodysoreness *can* be an indication of lyme disease. It's relatively cheap to have the vet pull some blood to check.

Was the vet pretty sure that arthritis in the hocks wasn't a problem? How old is the horse? Arthritis is pretty common. You might try as a relatively cheap experiment, giving the horse the loading dose of Conquer gel (an oral HA gel) for 2 to 3 weeks. If arthritis is at least part of the problem, you may see a huge improvement in that time. If it's not, you're not out much money.

Another possible way of dealing with this is simply turn the horse out for 6 months. Move her to a barn where she'll be out at least 10 to 12 hours a day, pull her shoes (if she has them), give her the best nutrition you can, but just let her be for 6 months. Dr. Green can work wonders.

Good luck.

[symphony123]

hi thank you so much for all your replies !!!
the vet is positive there is not arthritis in the right hind leg or front,
We have xrayed front right and flouroscopied right hind. She is shod on all 4's i have a great ferrier (vet agree's) We have tried the turn out she actually had time off to have a baby and it still seems to be there. she doesnt flinch at all acutally when you run your fingers down her spine. she lives in a stall with a in and out crusher dust paddock with a 3 acre grass paddock attached. i have posted another video from this morning. please exscuse the quality im tyring to do it in the morning before i leave for work by myself in my pj's (lol)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNM5LMlMFCk

[BornToRide]

Hello
so spent all day yesterday at the vets he is convinced the toe dragging on the right hind is due to a right front lameness, we blocked everything in the front right until there was nothing left to block. still has the hind lameness and a slight head bobbing. horse is going back on friday for reblocking as he wants to be sure that every block works.
I have uploaded a video of her trotting on the lunge.
Any thoughts ?
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=wGvE0iTeMbIhttp://http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=wGvE0iTeMbI
I disagree - I see nothing wrong in the front - the legs move evenly and I guess the blocking confirmed that, but something is definitely wrong with the right hind. It also gets worse when she loads it more going to the right on a circle.
Have tendon issues been considered? Does she do better on hard ground and worse in soft footing? If so, you are most likely dealing with tendons.

Other things to possibly explore are selenium deficiency, EPSM, RER, Lyme and EPM. She also looks VERY stuck in her sacro-iliac joints!

[symphony123]

born to ride thank you !
i completley agree I see her very stiff in the si area and wanted to inject the si joint although he is convince it is the right front. My thought on the right front is she may have a bruised sole she was barefoot until two weeks ago when we shod her all around. She is going back to the vets on friday he would like to re-block the right front again up to shoulder to rule out (at his cost) im frusterated at this point as i see her right hind being the issue and have always though it was the back. we have ruled out stifle hock fetlock in that hind and arthritis so to me that seems the obvoius choice ?

[BornToRide]

I would not do that again unless tendons on the right hind have been ruled out. An Ultrasound should be able to tell if something is damaged.

How well does she flex and extend her pelvis? There are reflex points you can activate to check this. For extension they are located on the back in the lumbar area, just before the sacro-iliac joints. Pushing or scratching those usually makes a horse push the hind end out.

The ones for flexion are located left and right at the top of the tail (aboout 2 inches down from where the tail starts). You will usually find those in slight indentations in the muscles. Scratch or push into those and the horse wil flex the pelvis.

This will show you how tight (or not) she might be at the S/I joints. You may want to use a hoof pick if your fingers don't get much of a reaction. It helps to concentrate the pressure more on the reflex points.

When you do this, be careful not to get kicked. Stop if she becomes to agitated at any point or warns you and try again later. If you can,try at least several times to see if she gets better with each try and alternate back and forth between extension and flexion.

[pharmgirl]

BornToRide- that test/exercise for flexing the pelvis was a very good indicator with my guy and his SI. When that wasn't bothering him, he would just tuck under his pelvis. When he injured his SI, doing that to him would make him buckle almost to the ground! (even caught the vet off guard when he did it)

I checked out the video and didn't really see anything with the RF either. My guy had some bad angles in his feet at the time he injured his SI, and I do remember that he would sometimes be a tad short in the RF esp. when just walking out of a stall or something. Bone scan revealed nothing, and it did just block out at the foot so the vets figured it was just some compensation from the RH. He hasn't shown any issues at all with the RF since we fixed his hoof angles and his SI.

[BornToRide]

Yes, it is a very good indicator of S/I Joint flexibility or issues - I use it all the tiem when I work on horses :)

[Posting Trot]

Just a thought: you might look into selenium deficiency as part of the problem. Are you located in a selenium deficient area? How much supplemental selenium is the horse getting via grain and other supplements? Has the vet ever checked the horse's selenium level via blood tests?

It might be worth investigating.

[coco21]

I will be very interested in knowing the outcome of your vets findings. Please keep us updated. I also have a horse that is dragging his RH toe. The vet has blocked the hocks and stifles... still lame. He was away for Thanksgiving so we're in limbo to do further investigation until he returns.
I didn't see any lameness in the right front of your horse either.

[symphony123]

Hi
She is off to the vets tomorrow for more evaulation. I will update tomorrow
night with any finding's if any. such a frusterating situation. Im hoping to talk him into looking into the si joint and possibly injecting.
heres to hoping we find something

[Altamont Sport Horses]

Arthritis in the hip joint? And/or pinched nerve in the hip causing something comparable to sciatica. In humans there is a large bundle of nerves that travels through a large muscle group in the butt, can't remember the name, when it gets very tight it will pinch those nerves and cause leg pain. Doing a flex test might not effect this one way or another.

[Serigraph]

What is the treatment for sciatica in horses or pinched nerves? Anyone know?

I too am interested in the findings as one of mine is doing this as well. Good luck and keep us posted!

[BornToRide]

Arthritis in the hip joint? And/or pinched nerve in the hip causing something comparable to sciatica. In humans there is a large bundle of nerves that travels through a large muscle group in the butt, can't remember the name, when it gets very tight it will pinch those nerves and cause leg pain. Doing a flex test might not effect this one way or another. That's the periformis muscle - that's not a problem in horses as far as I know. If there was some root nerve impingment, I would expect to see more lameness or more dragging along with muscle loss.

[Altamont Sport Horses]

What is the treatment for sciatica in horses or pinched nerves? Anyone know?

I too am interested in the findings as one of mine is doing this as well. Good luck and keep us posted!

I would think that deep tissue massage and the proper stretching exercises would help sciatica. That is what I do for my sciatica. And if there is an orthopedic or spinal problem causing it or resulting from the muscle problem then chiropractic could help in conjunction with the massage and stretching.

There are also things that you can do to help strengthen the topline (or help keep it strong) and the SI area that would help support the back better. Super easy and a chiropractor can show you how to do them. They take 5 seconds each to do. :)

[BornToRide]

Deep tissue isn't always the best answer - I generally get better results using less invasive techniques, like fascial release combined with trigger point work and I have gotten similar feedback from my human clients :)

[CanterQueen]

CanterQueen - can you tell me about YOUR horses symptoms of EPM?

Well, I've just posted a thread in Horse Care, I think my boy is having some recurring issue with his past EPM episode. He's doing the same things he was doing when I had the vet out and it was diagnosed as EPM a year ago. It looks like a locking back stifle; he drags his left hind leg and doesn't seem to be able to get it up and "under" himself.

Even after treatment with Marquis, he would "slip" sometimes at the walk. We sent him to equine swim therapy and it didn't really seem to help with this (he developed some nice muscle mass, but still slips).

I'm wondering if EPM can "come back". Any thoughts??????

[symphony123]

Hello
Just got off the phone with the vet , they have now ruled out neck issue's ,shoulder, front right, hind right, high suspensory (sp) in right. now checking spine , will keep you updated
thanks !

[symphony123]

so I just thought i would update you on our findings on Friday.
After re blocking front right and hind my vet decided to start on the neck he found a spur between her c6 and c7 :( She is on bute for a week to help take down the inflammation and then we are possibly going to inject.
Anybody have any experience with this. I would like to still show my mare she does the hunters and i dont believe she's quite ready to retire but the thought of making her do her job if its painful saddens's me.
Any help would be appreciated.

[BornToRide]

This to me does not explain the lameness in the right hind and whose to say that spur is actually causing problems? I mean it is not normal, but did it actually cause symptoms? If you'd look at a person front to back you'd possibly find all sorts of anomalies that don't cause anything. Back diagnostics have found this. Some people had considerable changes yet had no issues, while other with little changes were in a lot of pain.

[symphony123]

hi
agreed, i can send the xray's off to a radioligist (sp) to have viewed maybe thats something i should consider. Would that tell me more about the spur do you think ?

[BornToRide]

A bone spur is usually created when there's too much strain on a tendon/bone attachment , usually from chronic overuse and muscle imbalances. The body tries to re-inforce that connection by laying down bone cells, thereby creating the spur.

[Fharoah]

Have you considered a bone scan to see if there are any other hot spots? I know you have likely spent alot.

I am trying to rehab a lame horse right now that I don't know, I understand how hard it is. Best Luck, I hope injecting the neck helps!

[Altamont Sport Horses]

I agree, when I read the findings I thought "Are you sure that is it and that there isn't more?" I've never had a bone scan done but have heard about it and it seems to be a great way to identify problems instead of justing x-raying here and there. Also, it seems like you might save yourself more money in the long run if you try to get as much diagnostics done at one time, if necessary, instead of incurring multiple farm calls and exam fees.