What will it take for y'all to forgive AT?--spinoff from irony

[gully's pilot]

I've been reading the irony column on the new safety stuff--with interest, and some amusement, and I'm not wholly sure what I think about it all. Gnep posted a satire of Amy Tryon calling someone regarding their dangerous riding--it's funny, Gnep, but it's also somewhat mean-spirited. And someone else posted, "Now the AT supports will get their panties twisted"--not quite that, but to that effect.

I am an AT supporter--I've said so before--but my panties aren't twisted (thankfully), and I ask this not in exasperation, but as a real question: at what point do you all think the public forgives and forgets? What does she need to do, what has she not done, how much time has to go by before you--and by you I mean readers of this forum who not only don't support Amy but speak out against her--are willing to let the past remain so?

From where I sit, she expressed regret and remorse, was sanctioned by the FEI and, whatever you may think of the sentence she was given (which, after all, came from the FEI, not Amy), served that sentence; the horse's owners issued a statement of support for her, and she's not done anything similiar since, nor have I heard she did anything like that in the past. So--what do you need to happen before we can let this drop? It's been 2 1/2 years. I'm Catholic, we believe in forgiveness and all that.

[bambam]

for the love of all that is holy- can we please please please not have this discussion???? This topic has been beaten to death and nothing productive can come of it.

[bosox]

so only 1.5 years.

Not sure---but after watching her ride at the Games--and seeing her almost flip...don't think she is really the person to call someone else out.

[RAyers]

I am rather indifferent to AT. I am not a fan, nor do I think she is the devil incarnate. I think you put us on a couple of jumpers and I can beat the pants off her. Put us on XC and she can beat the pants off me. So,she ain't that special, just has experience.

She is, to me, the PREDOMINANT example that they system is BROKEN and she will always be associated with that. Why is it she is found guilty of abuse resulting in the death of a horse and gets 2 months suspension while the same year a junior comes off XC with a horse that has a bloody nose and gets the same 2 months?!

AT's case proves to everyone that killing a horse is not so bad so long as it is done in competition. So why should any of us care what we do to these animals? All that will happen is a "tut-tut." "Be a good boy, and sit in the corner until dessert is served."

It is nothing personal against AT but that the RULES MUST BE APPIED EQUITABLY AT ALL LEVELS!

Reed

[gully's pilot]

Reed--I entirely, 100% agree with you that the system is not working right--that the two suspensions were not handed out equitably--that promoting a system of secrecy and "big names" for this safety call-out is not the way we should go--but here exactly is my point. You say that Amy, herself, will ALWAYS be associated with the system--that her case is showing to the world that the death of Le Samurai wasn't important.

I don't like the way the FEI handled it. I think that the way they handled it might always be an example of an unfair system. But Amy herself? To me, this just seems awfully harsh. I don't know her well, but I do know her, a bit on a personal level, and I don't think that she feels the death of Le Samurai wasn't important--quite the opposite. She herself is not saying, has never said, that the death of Le Samurai was trivial, should have been ignored.

I hate to see her name become "what is wrong with our sport." I think it's a huge burden to put on the shoulders of a basically good and caring horseperson.

[LexInVA]

I think this is a pretty loaded topic of discussion. Not so much for the controversy behind the subject matter but because it's connected to so many other things that are considered to be serious problems within the sport of Eventing in this country. I believe this is going to turn into another "Amy Tryon needs to burn in Hell for what she's done!" trainwreck but I do think the topic merits discussion in a rational fashion if possible, especially if you can put it into context with all the other things that are going on.

[Jealoushe]

For me to forgive, it would take an admittance, that she made a mistake. No more lame excuses and going around what happened. Just a - yepp, I knew the horse wasn't right, but we were almost at the end and I thought we would make it. I made the wrong choice and I'm sorry.

It just ain't gunna happen.

[Whisper]

If someone stole or embezzled and was convicted, even after they served their term, nobody's going to want them to act as the treasurer or in any financial capacity for their company or organization. A convicted pedophile shouldn't have anything do do with kids, even after they serve their time. Darren and Amy just aren't good safety reps! It's not so much about forgiveness (especially in Darren's case, obviously), just that they are the current poster children for "what *NOT* to do." Surely they can find a couple of people who don't have a recent, widely publicised scandal in this area to serve?

[RAyers]

I hate to say but this past week I directly dealt with (as in I was part of the group who had the final say on their case) two horrendous CRIMMINAL acts resulting in student judicial (as well as county police) intervention. I look at these 19 and 20 year old kids and I know their lives are destroyed, most likely forever. They will ALWAYS be associated with single incidents that may or may not be associated with bad judgement.

This is the AT case EXACTLY, except she did not face prison time as these kids will. Well, as much as I would love to hope for redemption for each, they did some things that went against the LAWS we have. They had to be punished and punished heavily for what they did, repgardless of if they were stupendous, upstanding citizens, regardless of their future potential.

And that is where AT needs to be. She may be a great person but she must pay the consequences for her actions and part of that consequence is Le Samurai. Because it IS important.

Reed

As a Taoist, I too believe in forgiveness but even Christ recognized the rule of law with, And he said unto them, "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's." Luke 20:25.



Reed--I entirely, 100% agree with you that the system is not working right--that the two suspensions were not handed out equitably--that promoting a system of secrecy and "big names" for this safety call-out is not the way we should go--but here exactly is my point. You say that Amy, herself, will ALWAYS be associated with the system--that her case is showing to the world that the death of Le Samurai wasn't important.

I don't like the way the FEI handled it. I think that the way they handled it might always be an example of an unfair system. But Amy herself? To me, this just seems awfully harsh. I don't know her well, but I do know her, a bit on a personal level, and I don't think that she feels the death of Le Samurai wasn't important--quite the opposite. She herself is not saying, has never said, that the death of Le Samurai was trivial, should have been ignored.

I hate to see her name become "what is wrong with our sport." I think it's a huge burden to put on the shoulders of a basically good and caring horseperson.

[EventFan]

For me to forgive, it would take an admittance, that she made a mistake. No more lame excuses and going around what happened. Just a - yepp, I knew the horse wasn't right, but we were almost at the end and I thought we would make it. I made the wrong choice and I'm sorry.

It just ain't gunna happen.

That is it for me too, just an admittance from AT that she made a mistake. Standing there watching her just before the arch, then hearing her "reason" for continuing is too much. I feel the same way about LA though, when she says "he didn't pick his feet up". Painful. I've had the misfortune of being present at both incidents, and I hope I never see another one that up close and personal.

[NCRider]

Not to reopen the can of worms, but it seems to already be open.
I was reading this thread and I thought she had apologized so I looked it up. This is directly from the Press Release: "I also want to reiterate my unequivocal apology to the Tribunal, the FEI, the USEF, the Broussards, Eventers and horse people everywhere for the mistake I made during the cross country at the Lexington Three-Day Event. I misperceived the situation and acted incorrectly." This seems like an apology to me. I've never met the woman, have only seen the video, but I will say I she seems sincere about this. People seem to want to crucify her for a mistake and I don't get that. I do understand the PR problem of having people who have made very public mistakes as the designated "reprimanders" but perhaps hearing "hey, you are riding dangerously" might mean more from someone who has made a very public mistake and experienced all of the horrible aftermath of it. In addition, some of these people are the most "successful" prominent riders at this time and I wonder if an up and coming "hot shot" rider might pay more attention to a lecture from AT or KOC than from someone they might regard as old school.

[Jealoushe]

Ya, she apologized, for "not knowing what was happening"

Again, it would take an apology, and an ADMITTANCE of the truth....I don't buy that line.......not one bit!!!!!!!

So...as I said...it ain't gunna happen. Sorry, but you don't have to like everyone in the world do you.

[Thames Pirate]

Ya, she apologized, for "not knowing what was happening"

Again, it would take an apology, and an ADMITTANCE of the truth....I don't buy that line.......not one bit!!!!!!!

So...as I said...it ain't gunna happen. Sorry, but you don't have to like everyone in the world do you.

That's a bit harsh. Passing judgment based on what you do or don't believe--who are any of us to judge what AT felt? She admitted to misperceiving the situation. That's not good enough because you KNOW beyond any doubt that she knew what was wrong with the horse and acted willfully?

I don't know AT (just seen her around at events on rare occasions). I wasn't at Rolex. However, even the commentators on the video I saw online (who were doing live commentary) thought the horse had thrown a shoe at first (before the final jump). So did I (for what my opinion is worth). She wasn't the only one who misperceived the situation.

Should she have known better? Of course. Did she admit to a mistake and apologize? Yes. Do you have to like her/clinic with her? Of course not. I just wonder why we choose to believe some people and not others. Should she say "I knew the horse was lame and I made it jump anyway" even if it's a lie?

Maybe it's naive, but I like to think the best of people. I am less cynical and as a result happier and more pleasant to those around me. I am inclined to believe her. If subsequently speaking out against negative commentary and person-bashing when that person cannot defend themselves or is not believed when he/she does makes me an AT supporter with my panties in a twist, then I will gladly take the label and remain a trusting, positive, and fair-minded person.

[whoacorwin]

I saw AT at Rolex and was so horrified to witness such a obvious case of abuse. I had always supported this sport and admired the ULR's and was in awe of the special horses that do such a incredible feat. I wandered around in a daze almost...went back to the barn area and spoke with a well respected horseman, who knew La Samarai when Robin had him in CA. He could tell something was wrong when he witnnessed AT use her stick to get him in and out of the last water.... this was a horse who apparently had way to much go and never needed to be urged to jump... and this was several jumps till I saw him franticly swapping leads and then stumbling in pain to and over the final fence. I could not sleep at all that night wondering what the hell could have happened. I so wanted AT to just speak the truth...not go from excuse to excuse....thought he lost a shoe, to tired to and focused on finishing the course to feel what was going on, he took one bad step and then felt like he was better. It was bad enough to have her lie, and then to have the FEI hold her accountable for what she did not do, not what she did was a disgrace and then we have to have the ULR's either say nothing or defend her...come on what is there to respect in this sport anymore, except the amazing horses?
The chance for me to forgive AT came and went.....I personally could never ride a horse again if I let my ambition allow me to unintentionally or intentionaly cause such a horrific end for a horse, especially a horse who had so much heart to continue on as Le Samurai did.

[LAZ]

To the OP--

I believe the short answer is

some people never will.

Some people will in time.

Some people understood that it was a horrible, horrible mistake and bad judgement and already have.

Some people believe that it was a horrible, horrible mistake that shes wishes she could take back for the rest of her life, and think "there but for the grace of God go I".

(for the record I'm with the 4th choice)

[zagafi]

LAZ, I'm with you on that 4th choice. I don't understand the need to crucify someone for a horrible mistake--and it was horrible, there's no question--but it was an error in judgment, not willful abuse.

[2LaZ2race]

I said

"aaaahhh geeez! lets see how long it takes for the Team Tryon supporters to get here"

Meaning... oh no a fight is going to break out now. I really don't care one way or another.

[2ndyrgal]

is supposed to be about "dangerous riding", not about someone that made a devastatingly poor choice one fence from home nearly two years ago. It is not up to "us" to forgive AT, do or do not, it makes not one bit of difference to her or the horses she throws a leg over every day. I really doubt she forgives herself, she's taken her very public flogging and what is said to and about her in very public forums like this is far far worse than any suspension that the FEI could have imposed. She is an experienced rider, and I'm sure that she didn't just jump that last fence for fun knowing if it was something bad she'd be spun the next day anyway. There is no way of knowing how long that horse went on heart alone, and though I'm sure he felt ragged and tired, well, I've had perfectly sound race horses fall out from underneath me. Three strides before, they were, or at least felt, fine. A less game horse would have quit her, he didn't. Put blame where you must, but just put praise on her horse, some are much more stoic than others, my horse with a twisted large intestine simply refused food for 5 days, and it was only on the last day that he tanked and he was at HDM the entire time. Barely even ran a fever, and didn't roll or paw or even lay down or break a sweat for five days. Let it be.

[deltawave]

She doesn't really need my "forgiveness", but FWIW I don't think she's a terrible person, a terrible horseman, or anything but another upper level rider and human being: imperfect, prone to mistakes, in a high-profile position where every one of them is scrutinized, and struggling to keep her place at the top. I don't wish her any ill at all, and I would shake her hand if I had the opportunity to meet her. Sort of neutral, I guess. *shrug*

[EventFan]

"I also want to reiterate my unequivocal apology to the Tribunal, the FEI, the USEF, the Broussards, Eventers and horse people everywhere for the mistake I made during the cross country at the Lexington Three-Day Event. I misperceived the situation and acted incorrectly."

I had not read or heard this statement, and I am happy to see it. By recognizing she made a mistake, it seems to me that she is admitting that she made a grave error. Prior to this incident, she was my favorite rider. I probably won't ever admire her in the same way again, but my respect did go up upon reading the above statement. I'm not out to crucify her, or to never forgive her. But it will forever tarnish my idea of someone that I had really looked up to.

[Gnep]

Since you mentioned Me.

I realy don't care about AT, neither in a negative nor positive manner. I have been a few times at the same shows, Galway, and Rebecca, but thats about it.
A very good friend of mine told me she is a very nice Lady and a good horseperson, and I take my friends word for granted, I trust his judgement.

My beef, she killed a horse, to be blunt, not in an accident. She said she was very sorry.
Normaly if something like that happens you kinde step back and reflect about what just has happened, what you have done and than show through your action and behaviour that you recognize what you have done.
I did not see that and a lot of people neither.
Her first action was to rush to get Pogio qualified for the Olympics, before the FEI could penalize her.

It is the attitude, I just killed a horse, but well, I got a nother one and nobody is going to stop me, I am going to be at the Olympics
And on top, every single one that was or is involved with the Team and the Leadership of our Oraganisations considered that perfectly OK and even defended that.

Sadly AT will stand as the example for a broken sport, who has completly lost its moral values. The highest value we have is THE HORSE. If you look up the mission statements of our Organisations, you will find this were well expressed.
The National Team should not only present the people with the highest skill levels, but with very high moral standards.

I do not see the remorse, not one bit, opposit, ignorance or arogance, I did my 2 month, all good, payed 1000, all good, Olympics here I come and now beeing one of the people that call people up.

I think she has not gotten it, never did, never will. The people who put her on theTeam and now on the caller list neither.

[RiverBendPol]

For me, it is not a case of 'forgiveness'. I see Amy as someone who's blood was up, she was in first place, she'd had a pretty super run thus far, she was one from home and when that horse broke, her quest for glory took over her good, lifelong horsemanship skills. She made a stupid, unnecessary, irrevocable mistake all because she figured she didn't have far to go and could possibly 'win this thing'. We've all been there but I, for one, have pulled up. Thank God I have never had an injury take place below me that was anywhere NEAR the severity of Le Samuri's, I hope and pray I never will. I did, however, watch my 22 year old lifelong partner and upper level competitor bow his SDFT trotting in his field last month. In the split second it took for him to go from a cheery trot in the morning mist to standing still, holding his paw out in front of him, rubbing the back of his leg with his nose, I KNEW it was a major injury. It did end his life. There was NO QUESTION it was a very, very bad hurt the instant it happened. If I had been on his back there is NO WAY I'd have possibly been able to think it was anything but a career ender. Don't try to tell me I couldn't know bc I wasn't in Amy's situation. You can tell when your horse isn't right and when he's as broken as Le Samuri was, there is no doubt whatsoever.
Long story short, I don't give a fig about Amy Tryon, I have no respect for her, I'll never cross the street to take a lesson from her and I do NOT think she should be any kind of a representative for safety nor anything else having to do with the welfare of event horses.

[CiegoStar]

It was just SO egregious. The way she CANTERED THROUGH THE FINISH FLAGS before dismounting, even though she knew her horse wouldn't pass the jog for stadium. That was not a split-second decision made in the throes of high adrenaline. Disgusting.

Now, what will it take for forgiveness? While I think Bill Clinton was a fine president, he made a similar error when the Monica Lewinksy story hit. He admitted he made a mistake and wanted to skip over atonement and go straight for forgiveness. Wrong - you must go through the atonement phase, or else the people around you can't let it go.

The FEI should have nailed AT. Then I think we'd be inclined to have sympathy for her. They did her no favors with the joke of a punishment that they meted out. Reed is right - many people suffer much more for much smaller mistakes that don't cost a life. She skipped a vital step in a universal process.

[gully's pilot]

Well, this post is actually achieving what I hoped it would--not a train wreck, but an honest, so far as I can tell, exploration of people's feelings.

There are those who feel certain Amy knew exactly what was wrong, and chose to kick on anyhow. To me, this doesn't make logical sense: she had showjumping the next day. If something were seriously wrong with Le Samaurai, no way would she win, no matter whether or not she pushed him through the finish flags.

There are those who feel, 'there but for the grace of God go I.' For the record, I'm in this camp. I can't forget a certain event where I DIDN'T cause an injury to Gully, but by God through nothing but ignorance came very close, and have only myself to blame. And I also ran him at the AECs and then three weeks later he was operated on both back legs--I'd been fighting the feeling that he wasn't quite right, even though my vet and various others thought he looked okay. When the surgeon told me what was wrong, I blinked and said, "But this horse ran clear at the AECs two weeks ago," and the surgeon said, "What can I say? He's got heart." Can you imagine? He wasn't visibly lame--but I'm sure, now, that he was hurting, and he was foot-perfect--double clear in xc and sj. And I love this horse with my whole heart, and would absolutely never ask him to suffer for me. So, perhaps that's why I'm more willing to cut Amy some slack. I'll never ride Advanced or for the Team, but i know I've made mistakes despite being a decent horseperson and having nothing but the best of intentions.

There are intermediates who don't care much one way or another, which I think is perfectly fine.

I guess I have trouble understanding those who feel that Amy was lying, is lying, and those who know for sure that if they were in the saddle, they'd have understood the situation fully and acted differently. I sort of wish I had that brand of certainty, but, again, I don't--I've had enough times when I was less than perfect, both with horses and without, that I can't avoid a sense of humility.

But mostly, I just wanted to know, what do people want that they haven't gotten? And I thank you all for answering honestly.

I would like to say that there's a difference between a pedophile and this situation. Let's consider what people can be arrested for: pedophiles, it's well documented that there's not much chance of rehabilitation. Animal hoarders, probably ditto, also serial killers. But drunk drivers? Maybe. Negligient homicide? Quite possibly. In my town a fifteen-year-old girl was recently given probation in a case in which the girl, driving a pickup in company with a friend (not intoxicated, but clearly not a licensed driver), went too fast, swung off the road around a turn, hit a house, and killed a woman who was lying on the couch, sick with the flu. It's a horrible tragedy; the woman is dead, and her family outraged. They wanted the 15-year-old sent to prison for murder. But of course the kid didn't intend harm--should she pay with the rest of her life?

So, to whoever--Reed?--suggested this was like letting a pedophile out, I disagree. This is being willing to believe that someone who made a big mistake with horrible consequences a) didn't intend the outcome they got; b) isn't likely to make the same mistake again.

[CiegoStar]

Gully, I don't think there is any parallel between what happened to your horse after AECs and AT's situation. You knew in your gut something was wrong and you had your horse checked out by experts. That was all you could do! Here's the thing: Amy Tryon IS an expert. She IS supposed to be the best the sport has to offer. SHE, not you or me or an amateur learning as we go along, should have known more.

There's a lot of things about the situation that don't make sense (ie, why would she continue if she knew her horse wouldn't pass the jog. My answer for that: she fervently HOPED he would pass the jog.). If this were an isolated incident, it wouldn't bother me nearly so much. But the fact of the matter is that our sport feels like it's in crisis. And when someone like AT makes a horrible mistake, and then a short time later is rewarded with a berth on our Olympic team representing our sport and our nation, well, I feel bothered and ashamed.

If I were someone like Corrine Ashton, someone who'd toiled and worked hard and been a steller horsewoman, only to be passed over for the likes of AT, I'd be very discouraged about this sport, that's for damn sure.

[Jealoushe]

That's a bit harsh. Passing judgment based on what you do or don't believe--who are any of us to judge what AT felt? She admitted to misperceiving the situation. That's not good enough because you KNOW beyond any doubt that she knew what was wrong with the horse and acted willfully?

I don't know AT (just seen her around at events on rare occasions). I wasn't at Rolex. However, even the commentators on the video I saw online (who were doing live commentary) thought the horse had thrown a shoe at first (before the final jump). So did I (for what my opinion is worth). She wasn't the only one who misperceived the situation.


Thats right, I don't have to like her or her riding. BUT if you are riding at that level you damn well should be able to feel whats a lost shoe and whats a horses leg about to NEVER WORK AGAIN. I don't know what she was thinking, but I do know I would have been able to feel the difference...and that's enough for me. Maybe that's b*tchy, but hey all my horses are alive and well munchin hay in their stalls. My horse gets 2 days off the minute I ever suspect any slight boo boo.

As for those who say "what about showjumping the next day?" Have you ANY clue the amounts of work and this and that some riders/grooms can do to bring a horse back so its sound enough to compete the next day? I doubt that was even a question in her mind...she just was so worried about getting over that finish line.

Everyone is sick of the AT bashing.....well I'm sick of everyone telling us that are bothered to get over it. I'm not over and if I have to deal with those who don't care then you should have to deal with those who DO.

Im grumpy

[deltawave]

Gully, that's about the best and most even-handed summary of the whole thing I've read yet. I'm with you. :yes:

[RAyers]

...

So, to whoever--Reed?--suggested this was like letting a pedophile out, I disagree. This is being willing to believe that someone who made a big mistake with horrible consequences a) didn't intend the outcome they got; b) isn't likely to make the same mistake again.

Nobody mentioned pedophile, only you so don't tag any of us with that. Using your idea though, I agree, it this is not the same thing as a pedophile. I would go more along the line of vehicular assault or manslaughter (e.g. hitting a pedestrian or crime of passion) or 3rd degree felony rape. Something that is not premeditated but a SIGNIFICANT lasting injury or harm occurs.

So, it is the exact same thing as the instances I presented. Of course I can not go into details due to legal issues. I just realize the students' situation is similar to ATs, except the rules and punishment were not applied fairly or with consideration. Remember, she was found GUILTY so the question is did she serve the appropriate sentence?

I don't need nor care what AT was thinking or not. I just see a failed system that implies a top rider career is more important than the life of a horse.

At AECs I pulled up in the schooling area as my horse did not feel right. He stopped at a cross rail so I withdrew. It turned out he has a small suspensory strain in the hind. The vet was very complimentary about how I was able to feel it.

Reed

[whoacorwin]

I know that anyone who has been in the barn Sat after XC at any major event that has a jog on Sunday knows that tons of ice, lazers, magnets, farrier work, vets, etc have brought many a seriously "iffy" horse to being accepted Sun AM. The worst thing about it to me is I used to think we were doing a really cool thing sticking horses in buckets of ice and all the other crap just to get that horse to show jump. I would doubt that the jog was foremost in AT mind on course.

[gully's pilot]

If someone stole or embezzled and was convicted, even after they served their term, nobody's going to want them to act as the treasurer or in any financial capacity for their company or organization. A convicted pedophile shouldn't have anything do do with kids, even after they serve their time. Darren and Amy just aren't good safety reps! It's not so much about forgiveness (especially in Darren's case, obviously), just that they are the current poster children for "what *NOT* to do." Surely they can find a couple of people who don't have a recent, widely publicised scandal in this area to serve?
__________________


That was Whisper, Reed, not you--I got the two posts confused in my mind, and I'm sorry for that. I understand why you can't give details of your case--I'm just not sure anybody's life should be ruined over a single act. I do understand the opinion that Amy shouldn't serve as a safety rep--I'm not sure, is it only on the basis of having passed the ICP certification? But I see so much venom, and so many people who are certain that in her shoes they would have done differently--and while I fervently hope that I would have, I'm not sure. It's my own uncertainty that brought me to ask. I want to know how others are thinking.

[RoeVee]

To me, it isn't a forgiveness thing. She isn't suited to be a voice for the sport.

I don't know AT, but I DO know I don't want AT representing the US in the Olympics. ever. Olympics, idealistic or not, are suppose to be the 'heroes' of the sport. In watching Rolex w/ Le Samuri and watching this past Olympics - I see a woman that consistently puts her career over the well-being of her horses. And Amy being a caller for the Watch List - are you kidding me - she should be ON the watch list. Pushing a horse to its death - intentional or not - that rider should always be on probabation. Because if she really didn't know the horse was that critically hurt - her judgement should always be suspect.

I think there are *many* other ULR that can better represent the US - riders that have the professional skills and the moral fiber to be leaders in the sport.

I am not 'angry' w/ Amy nor does she need to do 'anything' to prove she is sorry - but she should not be a 'voice' in this sport.

[bosox]

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=177218

why did this jr rider know something was wrong w/her horse instantly--but the professional did not. :confused:

Yes--different injuries--but did she (AT) miss the lesson where our up down instructors said to us "when in doubt, get off?"

[snoopy]

If I were someone like Corrine Ashton, someone who'd toiled and worked hard and been a steller horsewoman, only to be passed over for the likes of AT, I'd be very discouraged about this sport, that's for damn sure.

Corinne is indeed a very classy lady....:yes:

[event1]

I am a forgiving person but for what it is worth-I still have not forgiven AT and won't UNTIL I hear what I consider to be a heatfelt apology that is completely sincere and not her "duty", as well as an act of kindness on her part to honor the memory of that wonderful and huge hearted horse that she was on. I don't exactly know what that could be but SOMETHING.....plant a damn tree in his honor at the horse park-or give some free clinic to young riders about properly conditioning your horse (which IMO-the lack thereof is the reason LeSamuri broke down) or something that shows that she is making a personal statement to have taken responsibility for what happened-and she is doing "whatever" to make sure it doesn't happen again and to help clear her name. I guess what I am trying to say is that although she did her sentence (which I thought was too light!), it would make me feel alot better about her as a person and a horseman to see her going above and beyond the call of duty-which to me, she has not done. She did what was expected-and nothing more.....that to me is just not enough.:(

[poltroon]

Personally, I see this as an issue that has very little to do with Amy, and more to do with our sport and our sport's culture.

I am in the "but for the grace of God go I" camp. She had a terrible error in judgement, and she had the misfortune to make it on national television. Most professional horsemen I know have a deep dark story of a horse who died or was never the same because of a mistake they made.

I think to say "she lies" is ridiculous. I think it's obvious that if she had known the horse had a serious injury that she would have pulled up.

But I think that she didn't know is in part because of the way we have all been brought up to ride in eventing, at least those of my generation and before, the whole 'riding for the team' aspect, the whole 'finish at any cost' that has been an important part of selecting riders for the national team. We've read International Velvet, we know the stories of riders show jumping in broken collarbones after falls cross-county, we were all taught about the difference between riding as an individual - where you could risk being brilliant and not finishing - versus riding for the team where you would take safer options to get a solid score.

Once upon a time this was the right attitude, probably. After seeing what happened to Le Samurai, I think it is clear that it is no longer so. We need to foster an environment where it's acceptable for a rider to pull up with a questionable horse and not blow their chances for a national team. Even if there's nothing obvious at the end of the day. Better to pull up and be ready for another time.

This attitude issue can't be laid at the feet of any one person: it certainly predated Amy, and Mark Phillips, and for that matter Mike Plumb.

Watching that video opened my eyes wide to how quickly a horse can shred himself doing the sport I love, and will make me more cautious when I have a horse taking strange steps. I don't think I am alone in that reaction.

[JER]

There are those who feel, 'there but for the grace of God go I.'

Speaking from personal experience, this is tough one for me. It's one thing to feel your horse have a catastrophic breakdown underneath you. It's quite another to urge him on for as long as AT did. There were mitigating factors, you could say, in her concern for her horse's welfare.

I had a horse suffer a life-ending breakdown out hunting. I was off immediately and made sure the horse never took another step. I've also had horses get rocks/junk in their hooves and hopped off them immediately. Could I press a horse on for 30+ seconds and ask them to jump when they were horribly lame? I haven't done it yet; I really don't know what could make me do this -- mostly because the trauma of that fatal accident is very much still with me many years later.

But mistakes are human. Some are silly, like the guy who guessed "Mustard-Filled Chocolate Eclair" on Wheel of Fortune. Some are very serious, like the guy I knew who inexplicably drifted over to the edge of the road and killed someone picking up their morning newspaper in the driveway. He and his passenger had no idea what happened or how it happened but it happened and he had to live with it.

When someone makes a mistake that costs a life, I think the best thing is to give them privacy and time to reassess and heal. What happened will always be a trigger point on a personal and public level. Which means you don't put them out in public as a judge of other people's actions for a good long time, if ever.

[pwynnnorman]

I do not see the remorse, not one bit, opposit, ignorance or arogance, I did my 2 month, all good, payed 1000, all good, Olympics here I come and now beeing one of the people that call people up.

I think she has not gotten it, never did, never will. The people who put her on theTeam and now on the caller list neither.

Gnep, I must admit a statement like this infuriates me.

Just because YOU don't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there.

What I see in the AT issue is the same kind of outrageous irrationality that went on during the election campaign...so I guess it isn't going away.

But there are two undeniable facts out there that folks aren't acknowledging, jsut as with the election: support and competency.

SUPPORT: A majority of the populace supported Obama. Are all those people's perspectives just illustrating their selfishness or stupidity, or do those perspectives merely represent another viewpoint that deserves respect? It is possible to disagree without being WRONG. People continue to support AT. They are not WRONG to do so. Even if you dislike AT, those who choose to support her still deserve respect -- and I think folks should think about that when they post about AT. I feel insulted by some of the things people post about the people I know and work with. I'm not stupid and I'm not callous, but I am sick of feeling personally insulting by what some people write.

COMPETENCY: Rational people recognize that there is great value to be had in sheer competency. You don't abandon it just because a mistake was made. If that was the case, there would be no UL riders at all. The fact is that AT is unquestionably one of the most competent individuals developing event horses out there. Her record with horse after horse is speaks for itself. One of the greatest supporters of the sport recently purchased a horse AT produced and I had the opportunity to watch that horse take its first UL course under another rider--and never have I seen a more rideable creature than that one. To produce a ride like that in a young horse is not something any true horseperson just tosses aside as of no import to a challenging sport.

Again, I see this just like the current political climate: from the recordbreaking competence of the Obama campaign to the more recent isseus involving the radically irrational right jumping on Obama's choice of attorney general because the man was involved in a few unpopular pardons, I am stunned by how some choose to focus on trivial things while the country faces huge issues that will require, first and foremost, exceptional competence to resolve. Again, to disagree with someone's opinion is (or should not) should not automatically make them WRONG, just as a single, significant error does not necessarily make someone ill-suited to perform a critical role, especially if both past and subsequent performance proves the error was an abberation.

Being irrational and/or unreasonable scares me a lot more than being a human who errs. I would, without hesitation, vote for AT to sit on any equestrian decisionmaking committee.

Gnep, I'm not sure I'd vote for you. You're not one of the irrational ones, but I do feel strongly that you can be exceptionally unreasonable. I've PM'ed you about things we agree on, but I disagree with you on this one, big time, and have posted this because I DO respect you, which is why I really wish you'd reconsider being so sure about what you cannot possibly know.

[Sannois]

I think its a dead issue. Why it comes back I do not know.
I used to really follow Amy.. Working woman get to the level she has.
I think she has to live with what hapened to that horse. Isn't it time to get on with this. ITs old its tired. IT will never be forgotten.. one I will not forget is lainie.. :no:

[LisaB]

I think she's a shining example of the broken system. Objective only. I think we need to use her, Darren, and Laine as examples of the holes in our system.
I do try to leave emotions out of it when it comes to her.
There is something broken in all 3 of these brains to make such decisions to cause this kind of uproar. But we need to stop their broken brains from hurting horses.

[beeblebrox]

This statement is not in reference to the original post but to Lisa post below:


"LisaB
I think she's a shining example of the broken system. Objective only. I think we need to use her, Darren, and Laine as examples of the holes in our system.
I do try to leave emotions out of it when it comes to her.
There is something broken in all 3 of these brains to make such decisions to cause this kind of uproar. But we need to stop their broken brains from hurting horses."


I am not sure weather to laugh or cry at your post. "Broken Brains? The sport of eventing will no more be able to keep riders from doing dangerous things in the moment as ANY OTHER sport. What had DC or AT done before the tragic incidents that proved your Broken brain theory LisaB? I need to know. They both had decent reputations before so this is not some lead up to disaster and both made mistakes that will now be etched into memory for the time in the sport of eventing. THIS does not equal broken brains. I am not a personal fan of either in the personality department as "personally" in the past I had found Darren arrogant to deal with in ICP and in general and Amy aloof and not friendly (yes yes a thousand times I have heard she is shy) but I know shy people and they manage to be polite. But of course my personal feelings on their personality has nothing do do with the price of tea in china but I do not hold some candle for either just do not agree with your broken brain comment.

How come you left off all the other people who have had horses killed underneath them? So many TOP TOP bnt and juniors too, are their brains broken?

[gully's pilot]

There is something broken in all 3 of these brains to make such decisions to cause this kind of uproar. But we need to stop their broken brains from hurting horses.

See, I think this is a huge leap in logic. It's one thing when there's a pattern, which there may or may not be in Darren or Laine's cases--I haven't looked into it, and I don't really want to go down that road right now--in Amy's case, I've not heard of a single other incident, and we can all point to several UL horses that she's brought along for their entire careers. So--am I wrong? I can see Le Samurai's death as an example of what's wrong with our system--the post regarding the difference between riding for a team and riding as an individual was spot on, I felt, especially the idea that "taking one for the team" is probably something we need to quit doing--but I don't believe it points to a deep fundamental character flaw in Amy herself. I think she made a mistake. Most of us do, particularly if we stick around this sport long enough.

And Wynn, I loved your post. And I think you're entirely right about That's Smart--I've been around that horse, he's a lovely animal with a wonderful foundation, which didn't drop from the sky, and isn't the result of poor horsemanship.

There have been a lot of thoughtful posts here, and I really appreciate people taking the time to voice their opinions both politely and thoroughly.

[Gnep]

PWY,
I am willing to except, when she says I made a dead honest mistake and anybody who has ridden X-C knows how adrenalin, the concentration and the challenge can cloud your mind.

It is like the person that sits with his coleagues after a long hard work day and has a little cocktail hour and istead just having that one drink has two and than clips that pedestrian on the way home.
Dead honest mistake, no intention, but nevert he less horrible and with a real need for punishment and a removal of the driver licens for a longer period of time.

You would not reward that person with a trucker licens or a Porsche, or with a new car or what ever within lets say 6 month.

Going to the Olympics is a Reward a extraordinaery Reward, should be, beeing part of that Elite Group of people that is considered for qualifikation is a reward extraordinaer.

Her dead honest mistake resulted in the death of horse, yes the FEI punished her for it, it was a proper court proceeding and the result has to be accepted, like it or not.
What I have No understanding for the instant going back to business as usual attitude and basicly the instant Reward, The Shit Happens attitude.

The people tat support AT are not wrong, as I said, afriend of mine told me that she is agreat Lady and a very good horseperson and I take that for granted, because I respect that persons judgement. She is not evel, mean, cruel or what ever.

I am not questioning her outstanding competence as a horseperson and I do not call as so many for her beeing suspended for live or what ever, absolutely not.

And I do not see any reason why she should not at one time represent her country with the National Team.

But instantly?

And I do not see any reason why she should not be a high level contributer for causes that are important to the Sport.

But instantly ?

The never missing a step, as if nothing happened. That is what I have no understanding for, absolut no understanding.

It is not person orientated, more system orientated and the system influences the person.
I hope you understand what I mean.

[glfprncs]

Never mind...the point of my post has obviously been missed...

[flyingchange]

I go back and forth. I have only once been on a horse - jump schooling in a lesson - when he went lame. He went badly, 3 legged after coming off a jump. I gave him a few strides and jumped off and pulled the boot off. He had thankfully just stung himself and trotted out of it.

If I, a LL eventer with just a speck of the experience that Amy has, could feel a lame horse underneath me, how could she not? And you don't take chances with horses' legs. If they are lame, you STOP and GET OFF. It doesn't matter if it ends up being just a sting or a pulled shoe. It doesn't matter where you are and what the next fence is. You STOP when your horse is lame.

For her to be one of the 'watchers' and 'notifiers' on the watch list is unbelievable to me.

I don't know. I think it's true that she does symbolize what is wrong with this sport. And almost 2 years after LS's death, things don't seem to be any better at the ULs in this sport.

[Thames Pirate]

My sister, who at the time was 17, was driving her horse home from a lesson. She drifted off the road, overcorrected, braked, and spun out. The trailer flipped and her horse was killed. She to this day cannot say if she was tired and started to fall asleep or just wasn't paying attention. She cannot talk about what went through her head as she hit the brake (hitting the gas would have saved them). She made a mistake and her horse paid the price. How is this different? She had been driving a trailer for 2 years and knew the responsibility. She will probably never recover, though a short time later she bought a new horse and is back competing. We all learned the adage "get back on," so why are we villifying AT for doing that?

None of us can know what went through Amy's head the moment the horse stumbled or at what point she realized he was irreperably lame. We cannot know how she feels about it. She admitted to making a fatal mistak, she apologized--what more can she do? She can't bring him back. I'm sure if she could, she would do it in less than a heartbeat--much like my sister would.

Amy was chosen for the team because she is an exceptional rider. It wasn't a reward, and the choice isn't supposed to be the riders whom we like or think are worthy--it's supposed to be the riders who will help us win. We can argue the "good old boys" club theory until we are blue in the face, and I don't entirely disagree with that argument. I do disagree with the idea that it was done as a reward rather than because AT and Poggio are experienced and good at what they do. Someone, somewhere thought she'd be a good choice to help the team medal. While they were wrong, is it because they were a poor choice or b/c they were having a bad day?

If you choose to villify AT, you should equally villify my little sister, who still feels guilty and sometimes stops when driving by the spot where her horse died. Villify the hundreds of riders like her, whose mistakes have cost lives.

I disagree that she is no longer qualified to tell riders what they are doing wrong/what is abusive. If anything, she is likely MORE qualified. My sister is now extremely qualified to talk about safety, tow vehicles, hitches (sway bars or a bigger tow vehicle would have saved her horse as well), and driving conditions. Why can't we accept that maybe she LEARNED from her mistake? Maybe this was a first for AT--I don't know her history. Some of us learned the lesson at Novice, others didn't. Some of us have been lucky enough to be able to learn it from watching others, just as I learned more about trailer safety from my sister's accident. Should she have learned it earlier? Sure. But she didn't. We can't know until it happens again (hopefully never, but . . .). If AT pushes a questionable horse again--at any level--we'll know. Until then, I choose to refrain from discussing the qualifications of someone so obviously more qualified than I am.

[deltawave]

Thames Pirate, you're tied with Gully's Pilot now in my book for most sensible attitude on this whole tired subject. :yes:

[CiegoStar]

:no: I'm starting to agree with whoever said no one can or will agree on this.

I do NOT see the correlation between a 17 year old driving a rig and Amy Tryon galloping 20+ strides on a three legged horse, jumping a 4' fence, galloping another few dozen strides and then pulling up. These are two completely unrelated events with different circumstances, different causes and different effects.

In my heart (not that it matters to AT) I have forgiven her. What she does in her personal competitive career really has nothing to do with me. What infuriated me was the FEI's pitiful handling of the whole situation. Frankly, we should count our lucky stars that eventing has virtually no public following once AT was named to the Olympic Team. It showed me that the USEA, USEF and FEI put winning first, and not the welfare of the horse. That is extremely disappointing to me.

[flyingchange]

ditto Ciego.

not really seeing the comparability of LS to the trailer accident.

but whatever.

[Ajierene]

Mostly I just think it is interesting that someone posted a somewhat derogatory post about Karen O'Connor and one about Amy Tryon in the same thread and only a spin off of 'forgiveness' for Amy was started.

I don't think the original post was derived from any more negative feelings about Amy than Karen, just who has fodder for the 'political commentary', so to speak.

[Dawnd]

What bothers me about AT is that, from a purely armchair position, I don't believe that she was "of the best" that our country had to offer as an Olympic team member. (Nor Karen with Mandiba).

If she was "of the best" (or illustrative of the best), the US team is not very good. We should have followed JCW's advise in his Practical Horseman's article to return to the drawing board. (And not rehire CMP)

Now what bothers me about the FEI is their inability to put real metal to a guilty verdict.

Politics is killing the sport.

[deltawave]

The common denominator is HUMAN ERROR. To which ALL of us are prone. Making a bad decision, screwing up, whatever you care to call it. It's not something we like to face in our own personal realities, so we are inclined to make up all kinds of elaborate explanations for our own, and also to pass judgement on those of others.

[quietann]

Oddly enough, it was the Le Samurai incident that led me to find the COTH forums. It was discussed briefly on a more general board, and I was interested in eventing, so I went searching for some "real eventers" to find their opinions. Guess I came to the right place :)

On a purely personal level, I think AT's had enough fingerpointing/blame etc. It was a horrible thing, she screwed up and she knows it, and she was punished -- albeit very lightly -- by the FEI. Enough!

On a *public* level, though, I think that having her in any visible position representing the USEA, the USA, etc. is a bad idea, especially when there are riders and horses just as good as she is, or better (she really didn't look good at the Olympics at all... I could not see why she was on the team!) She could continue her riding career as just another upper-level rider, without the cloud of her past lingering over anyone but her.

(BTW -- total sidenote, but I may not be able to event again. My accident in July resulted in a big metal plate being put in to hold my collarbone together, and if I fell and landed on it, I could shatter all the bones around it. My orthopedist -- who works with pro athletes -- knows that I will keep riding no matter what, so he has suggested that I give up jumping, as that is where I've had nearly all my falls, and where the risks of re-injury are highest. Which would mean no eventing :no::cry: )

[Gnep]

Lisa B,
They are not broken brains, they are just human, you make mistakes as human, some handle those mistakes in ways we/you/or the rest will be happy with. Some don't, just because they handle tragic in a different way, does not mean they are broken.

When I had to shoot my old man last year in the blizzard, I was asked if I cried, my answer, I have no tears for this life left. It shocked the questioner, in her eyes I am a heartles bastard, that does not care.
Same when I lost my Woman Harlekin.
Everybody handles tragedy differant.

My black humor considering KOC, or AT, should not be taken out of contens and does not belong in this thread, I could write similar stuff, about me, Reed, Phillip Dutton, God, Obama and Queen Mary, it is humor, Comic to make a point, overpaint and people will get it, some not, well, big deal.

We should never forget, humor is the last straw of sanity we can hang on to, if you loose that, blow your brains out.

[vineyridge]

What shocked me about the FEI proceedings was the number of ULRs who basically testified that horse breakdowns leading to death are just a part of UL eventing and that the FEI accepted that position as mitigation.

AT's "mistake" with Le Samurai was not much different from PD's "mistake" at FH. His rotational fall could have killed him OR the horse and was the result of bad judgment--from an excess of adrenaline, I would postulate. The one thing that SHOULD differentiate ULRs from smurfs is their ability to control their adrenaline and make reasonable decisions during their rounds.

But we learn from the FEI proceedings that breakdowns and deaths at ULs are just part of the cost of playing the game; and then we all should ask, not if AT should be forgiven, but if that attitude is acceptable at all. If it isn't, then the riders who make those "mistakes", should not be able to carry on as if nothing at all had really happened. That change in attitude needs to come from TPTB.

Sorry to butt into this discussion, but the AT brouhaha and the response of TPTB disturbed me terribly.

[LLDM]

COMPETENCY: Rational people recognize that there is great value to be had in sheer competency. You don't abandon it just because a mistake was made. If that was the case, there would be no UL riders at all. The fact is that AT is unquestionably one of the most competent individuals developing event horses out there. Her record with horse after horse is speaks for itself. One of the greatest supporters of the sport recently purchased a horse AT produced and I had the opportunity to watch that horse take its first UL course under another rider--and never have I seen a more rideable creature than that one. To produce a ride like that in a young horse is not something any true horseperson just tosses aside as of no import to a challenging sport.


But - Competency is meaningless if it is not employed. Unless and until our sport is willing to use the examples of these tragedies as "teachable moments" they will hinder all of us, the sport in general and the individuals involved (most of all).

I have no real reason to believe that AT is any more or less competent than any other Rolex Alumnus out there - and the quality obviously varies there. The are a number of ex TEAM members I wouldn't have let hot walk a tough shetland pony without an escort either. The mentality that winners are the best horsemen is what's gotten us into this deep hole of mistrust and misunderstanding.

For me, this is all about lost faith. I have no faith in the leaders or the "in" ULR's of this sport. It seems to have become (or is continuing to become) a "win at all costs" sport. And the one's at the top seem to be bent on consolidating their power structure because their vision is the only true vision.

As far as the AT thing goes - There are consequences to decisions. Some are official and some are incidental. It might not be terribly surprising that there are those who believe that - at least for the time being - that AT is not the best person to hand out dangerous riding penalties. And she is far from the only one.

However, if AT herself had made it a point to honestly address how and where things went wrong - and how to avoid such a fate themselves - Well that would be competency employed. And I would see this thing much differently now.

SCFarm

[Carol Ames]

From where I sit, she expressed regret and remorse, was sanctioned by the FEI and, whatever you may think of the sentence she was given (which, after all, came from the FEI, not Amy), served that sentence; the horse's owners issued a statement of support for her, and she's not done anything similiar since, nor have I heard she did anything like that in the past. So--what do you need to happen before we can let this drop? It's been 2 1/2 years. I'm Catholic, we believe in forgiveness and all that. http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3669815)

[Carol Ames]

I find it difficult to forgive the lowlights:sadsmile: who, I would bet have never been exposed :no:to the atmosphere at a Selection trial :eek:or the glare of "wannabes who, have never ridden a horse at that level/ speed; None of us was on the horse that day at that :no:moment., I know from my own experiences that what a rider feels is often quite different:sadsmile: from what a spectator in a relatively "calm 'space with the advantage of 20-20 hindsight , corroborated by video; Were a competitor to pull up , and ask the jump judge or bystander if the horse looked ok would that have been"unauthorized assistance?:confused:"

[Carol Ames]

I really must laugh at t:lol:his! Is this not the forum which, vilified CMP for not bringing home a team medal:confused:?showed me that the USEA, USEF and FEI put winning first, and not the welfare of the horse. That is extremely disappointing to me. http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3671912)

[flutie1]

From where I sit, she expressed regret and remorse, was sanctioned by the FEI and, whatever you may think of the sentence she was given (which, after all, came from the FEI, not Amy), served that sentence; the horse's owners issued a statement of support for her, and she's not done anything similiar since, nor have I heard she did anything like that in the past. So--what do you need to happen before we can let this drop? It's been 2 1/2 years. I'm Catholic, we believe in forgiveness and all that. http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3669815)

Yay Carol - well said!!

As I've said many times before, I believe that whatever punishment the FEI handed out to Amy is nothing compared to the punishment she bears upon herself. Until you've walked in her shoes .....

flutie

[Evalee Hunter]

. . . . From where I sit, she expressed regret and remorse, was sanctioned by the FEI and, whatever you may think of the sentence she was given (which, after all, came from the FEI, not Amy), served that sentence; the horse's owners issued a statement of support for her, and she's not done anything similiar since, nor have I heard she did anything like that in the past. So--what do you need to happen before we can let this drop? It's been 2 1/2 years. I'm Catholic, we believe in forgiveness and all that.

From where I sit, she expressed regret and remorse, was sanctioned by the FEI and, whatever you may think of the sentence she was given (which, after all, came from the FEI, not Amy), served that sentence; the horse's owners issued a statement of support for her, and she's not done anything similiar since, nor have I heard she did anything like that in the past. So--what do you need to happen before we can let this drop? It's been 2 1/2 years. I'm Catholic, we believe in forgiveness and all that. http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3669815)

Yay Carol - well said!!

As I've said many times before, I believe that whatever punishment the FEI handed out to Amy is nothing compared to the punishment she bears upon herself. Until you've walked in her shoes .....

flutie

flutie - I think if you will compare the two quote above yours, you will see that Carol was quoting gully's pilot. I'm not sure, really, what Carol was trying to say. The link takes you to a picture of the "quote" button.

[Thomas_1]

I'm sure she neither needs nor wants my forgiveness.

Neither am I persuaded there's anything I feel the urge to forgive. That would imply that I believed she'd wronged me or mine and that I felt angry or hurt by what she'd done.

I just think she's a crap unfit rider and can't understand why or how she's eventing and putting horses through the trouble.

[Ajierene]

Thomas, your post did make me chuckle. I have a similar feeling. I had no opinion of her until I saw her in the Olympics. I told my trainer, up until her fall she reminded me of how I rode when I first started eventing and couldn't trust my mare not to suddenly refuse a fence because that stack of hay is really hiding a monster.

While I can understand that your first Olympics can be stressful - I thought the Chinese rider rode much better than her. She looked braced and unsure. Shortly before her fall, she looked like she was pulling back, but she did not look like she was sitting back to do a true half halt, but just hauling on the reins. So I agree, mistake aside, I don't think she is all that good.

[gully's pilot]

Thomas, I think you're mistaking "fit" for "thin." If you'd ever been around Amy closeup, you'd know she's very fit. Fireman fit, in fact. Whatever else anybody can say about her, unfit she ain't. Nor would she show up at the Olympics unfit--way too much of a professional for that.

I myself, after a breathtaking (literally) run last year, am now considerably more fit, having made peace with my Stairmaster. I have yet, sadly enough, to become more thin.

[LisaB]

I stand by the 'brokeness' of these people. Not just because of this one catastrophic incident each one of them has had. I've seen these people time and again and I think we need to concentrate on stopping them from doing what they did. Their scenarios, sans the person/personality, needs to be picked apart and find that cog in the wheel that needs to be fixed.
Yeah, there are countless other ULR's that have had horses die from under them. But their reactions and remorse and actions didn't lead to such a public reaction. Why? Really really ask yourselves that. I know my answer to that question, do you?
Gnep, understood about having to put your horse down and sorry for that. But you put a horse out its misery. We just had to do that to a dog.
So, can we stop the personal crap? The scenarios need to be addressed. We won't get anywhere when folks get their knickers in a twist. It has got to be addressed and we can't sweep these awful events under the rug.

[LAZ]

Yeah, there are countless other ULR's that have had horses die from under them. But their reactions and remorse and actions didn't lead to such a public reaction. Why? Really really ask yourselves that. I know my answer to that question, do you?
.

My answer is the advent of the internet and the advent of easy-to-use affordable recorders. In the not so distant past we had to rely on our own eyes, or the eyes of people that actually were involved in an incident (whether as a participant or an observer), and/or wait for the paper magazine to get our news.

Now there is instant replay on nearly everything, (ad nauseum on TV) and many of those replays are available to everyone, anytime on the internet or TV. In years past this was not the case.

And because people are 'anonymous' on the internet they feel free to spout off opinions, many times vitriolic and mean spirited opinions. I doubt 5% of the people that have posted on the AT, DC, or LA threads would stand up and say the things they've said on these threads to the person's face. It's become a feeding frenzy.

[RiddleMeThis]

My sister, who at the time was 17, was driving her horse home from a lesson. She drifted off the road, overcorrected, braked, and spun out. The trailer flipped and her horse was killed. She to this day cannot say if she was tired and started to fall asleep or just wasn't paying attention. She cannot talk about what went through her head as she hit the brake (hitting the gas would have saved them). She made a mistake and her horse paid the price. How is this different? She had been driving a trailer for 2 years and knew the responsibility. She will probably never recover, though a short time later she bought a new horse and is back competing. The difference is the ability and amount of time that each had to correct the mistake. Once your sister had pressed the brake there was most likely little to nothing she could do from that point on.

From what I gather from this thread and previous threads is that they arent mad at her for having a fall but for PUSHING a lame horse for 30+ seconds over a jump and to the finish line.

She could have pulled up at ANY time in those 30+ seconds. She did not, she pushed him on, over a jump, and through the finish line.

In the case of your sister its one small mistake. In ATs case its 30+ mistakes, one for every second she pushed that horse on, while it was notably lame.
We all learned the adage "get back on," so why are we villifying AT for doing that?
There is a difference between "get back on" and get back on like nothing ever happened.

Now I personally dont have a preference one way or the other, but agree that she should not have gotten what she did, Olympics etc, so quickly. At some point? Sure, but not that fast.

[Thomas_1]

Thomas, I think you're mistaking "fit" for "thin." If you'd ever been around Amy closeup, you'd know she's very fit. Fireman fit, in fact. Whatever else anybody can say about her, unfit she ain't. Nor would she show up at the Olympics unfit--way too much of a professional for that.

I myself, after a breathtaking (literally) run last year, am now considerably more fit, having made peace with my Stairmaster. I have yet, sadly enough, to become more thin. Well actually I wasn't at all. IMO you can be thin and unfit too. However saying as you mention it, not only was she carrying way too much weight, fat even, but she seemed to me to lack basic fitness for riding. Mind you it's hard to tell when someone is bouncing all over the place and heaving a horses face off because they lack balance and technique.

Then again maybe she falls off and does so badly for other reasons ;)

[flutie1]

flutie - I think if you will compare the two quote above yours, you will see that Carol was quoting gully's pilot. I'm not sure, really, what Carol was trying to say. The link takes you to a picture of the "quote" button.

Whoever said it, I repeat Yay!

[flutie1]

I'm sure she neither needs nor wants my forgiveness.

I just think she's a crap unfit rider and can't understand why or how she's eventing and putting horses through the trouble.

"A crap unfit rider" who has made the majority of her upper level horses from scratch, turned a pack horse into an Olympic team horse, won both CCI 3 Stars offered in the U.S. this year on two different horses.

Gee, Thomas, if these are the achievements of a "crap" rider, what results do fit, uncrappy riders produce? Specifics please ..........

[pinkdiamondracing]

I'm sorry, but I still don't buy the " I wasn't aware what was happening" excuse.
I have galloped racehorses and have had several of them bow tendons, pull suspensories, and even had one snap an ankle while I was on them, and I have to tell you there is absolutely NO WAY she couldn't have been aware of what was happening underneath her. Having a horse break down under you feels a lot like driving a car with a wheel missing, it doesn't go so well. There's just no mistaking the feeling that something has gone horribly awry.

This is just my opinion .
ETA= I don't however think she is a "crap rider". She has made some fantastic horses from OTTB's and for this she should be commended.
I think she made a horrible mistake.
I don't have to like that, but that doesn't mean that she would make the same mistake again, unlike someone else who continues to operate in the " I didn't do anything wrong" fantasy world.

[magnolia73]

She had some bad judgement. It must have taken nerves of steel to gallop to that large fence on a horse that didn't feel quite right. I don't know if it is admirable, but her nerves and bravery are part of why she is good at what she does. I don't think there are too many riders at her level that would not make the same mistake. I think they get where they are by taking risks. Yeah- talent, extra balance- but a little extra mental ability to cope with risk figures in.

I don't think she is the real problem- the real problem is that the sport needs some oversight for the sake of the horses that needs to be driven and managed by those that are not so willing to be risky. Look at how far crazy Laine Ashker got- is she the problem? Or is the problem that no one ever said "That was scary- you will get hurt- slow down and drop back a level NOW!" There is no one to say to Phillip Dutton- maybe riding 8 horses over these courses is a bit much for one day. Shoot, we could not even have the staff in order to tell a head injury victim to sit out a year.

I guarantee you Dale Earnhardt Jr is not sitting in judgement of safe NASCAR driving (is that an oxymoron?). Mean Joe Green didn't judge what was unsportsmanlike conduct or roughing the kicker. Why the hell would these riders- risk tolerant to an exceptional degree be the people out judging safety??

Amy Tryon is no more or less than a symbol. She made a stupid mistake in a really public venue then did not react the way people wanted her to. I don't think she needs my forgiveness or respect. She pays the price every time someone thinks twice about sending her a horse or taking her clinic. If she still has supporters- so be it, she must do a good job for them. People often get second chances- hopefully she knows how lucky she is to have made the team- but luckier that her stupidity and error did not send her crashing through that last jump and to a hospital.

[Jealoushe]

I find it difficult to forgive the lowlights:sadsmile: who, I would bet have never been exposed :no:to the atmosphere at a Selection trial :eek:or the glare of "wannabes who, have never ridden a horse at that level/ speed; None of us was on the horse that day at that :no:moment., I know from my own experiences that what a rider feels is often quite different:sadsmile: from what a spectator in a relatively "calm 'space with the advantage of 20-20 hindsight , corroborated by video; Were a competitor to pull up , and ask the jump judge or bystander if the horse looked ok would that have been"unauthorized assistance?:confused:"



NOT that I realy got ANY of this post...but it seems you are calling out the "smurfs"...and thats dangerous territory around here!

Just because we are "lowlights" or whatever the hell you called us............doesn't mean we don't know how to ride, or what's involved in upper level eventing.

[sisu27]

To answer the original question, I can't ever forgive her. Not that she cares or it matters. I saw it, I watched the dvd after just to confirm what I saw. I saw someone flog an obviously lame horse over a fence and the finish line and pull up AFTER the finish line. I may never have run around Rolex but in my opinion there is nothing she can say that will make that horses death "ok". I am as competitive as anyone but if my horsee feels a bit off I stop. I would rather be overly cautious and have him live to compete another day...but that's just me.
I also agree that she at least looks unfit. I generally dislike the haulers and maulers anyways so she was never someone I would aspire to follow.

[poltroon]

Thomas, your post did make me chuckle. I have a similar feeling. I had no opinion of her until I saw her in the Olympics. I told my trainer, up until her fall she reminded me of how I rode when I first started eventing and couldn't trust my mare not to suddenly refuse a fence because that stack of hay is really hiding a monster.

While I can understand that your first Olympics can be stressful - I thought the Chinese rider rode much better than her. She looked braced and unsure. Shortly before her fall, she looked like she was pulling back, but she did not look like she was sitting back to do a true half halt, but just hauling on the reins. So I agree, mistake aside, I don't think she is all that good.

It wasn't her first Olympics. Indeed, Amy and Poggio were the most accomplished, most consistent pair chosen for that team. They were part of the team bronze in Athens (6th individual) and team gold for the WEG in 2002, individual bronze at the WEG in 2006.

And as for Amy's fitness, while she is not a small person and never has been, in order to be a firefighter, you have to be able to go up stairs at 60 steps per minute for 3 minutes while carrying 75 lbs of gear... and then walk on to a series of other physical tests. Whatever else you may think or feel about Amy, the idea that she is unfit or inexperienced is not supported by the facts.

[vineyridge]

Was looking at Poggio's record for this year (and last year). It was not sterling, to put it mildly. I know he has all that great experience and all, but what made him a good choice for the Team based on recent results.

[JER]

And as for Amy's fitness, while she is not a small person and never has been, in order to be a firefighter, you have to be able to go up stairs at 60 steps per minute for 3 minutes while carrying 75 lbs of gear... and then walk on to a series of other physical tests. Whatever else you may think or feel about Amy, the idea that she is unfit or inexperienced is not supported by the facts.

Just commenting as I've trained with aspiring firepeople...

You have to do that to pass the entrance exam. It's not like you're tested on it again.

Also, Amy quit her fire job a few years ago. Whatever fitness work she does is on her own time now.

IIRC, AT got quite sick in HK, some kind of flu or virus or infection, and spent some time in the hospital there immediately after the event. She was probably not 100% or even close to it (physiologically speaking) on XC day which may have shown itself as an apparent lack of fitness.

[gully's pilot]

Amy got an infection in her knee after she fell on it, and was hospitalized to get I.V. antibiotics.

I spent a week with her in June, about 10 days before she left for England. She was fit then, believe me.

Sisu27, forgiving Amy doesn't mean that LS's death was OK. It means no longer being angry with her about LS's death. You're right, she doesn't need forgiveness from any of the posters here, but lots of people still seem really angry toward her. Your post sounds as though you'd only forgive someone if you could see yourself potentially doing the wrong they did--is that true? If so, it's an interesting thought, but not one I see working out very well in a long span of life.

I went through a really difficult time several years ago--totally non-horse-related--and I think it made me a whole lot less judgemental of humanity as a whole, because I had to rely on so many other people, and was so humbled for the outpourings of support I received. I don't wish my sort of difficulties on anyone--but for me they were, in the end, a positive thing.

[deltawave]

I went through a really difficult time several years ago--totally non-horse-related--and I think it made me a whole lot less judgemental of humanity as a whole

This is pretty obvious reading your thoughts on the matter.

I've also, on more than one occasion, been responsible for REALLY BAD THINGS happening, not to horses, but to fellow human beings. Makes you really, really reluctant to judge other people for making mistakes. Even bad mistakes. I haven't walked a mile in AT's shoes, nor has she walked a mile in mine, but I do believe I can put myself in her place, and have done so. Forgiveness and empathy isn't something you necessarily seek out from others, but it's an awfully nice thing to sense when you look someone in the eye. Doesn't do the donor any harm, either. We could do with some more of it, all things considered, in our world. :yes:

[zagafi]

This is pretty obvious reading your thoughts on the matter.

I've also, on more than one occasion, been responsible for REALLY BAD THINGS happening, not to horses, but to fellow human beings. Makes you really, really reluctant to judge other people for making mistakes. Even bad mistakes. I haven't walked a mile in AT's shoes, nor has she walked a mile in mine, but I do believe I can put myself in her place, and have done so. Forgiveness and empathy isn't something you necessarily seek out from others, but it's an awfully nice thing to sense when you look someone in the eye. Doesn't do the donor any harm, either. We could do with some more of it, all things considered, in our world. :yes:

Amen, sister.

[GotSpots]

Was looking at Poggio's record for this year (and last year). It was not sterling, to put it mildly. I know he has all that great experience and all, but what made him a good choice for the Team based on recent results.
Vineyridge, I don't pretend to have any inside knowledge on this horse/rider, but many Advanced horses -- particularly ones who have already well established -- are not run for time or for "placings" at horse trials or even early CICs. Thus, it's pretty common not to see lots of primary colored ribbons for an established horse/rider: selectors look to see if they are getting competitive scores in dressage and jumping clean or nearly so in stadium. As long as the horse/rider has already shown they can make time when it counts, most people do not run fast XC if they don't have to. I would not be at all critical of an experienced horse who was carefully managed by not being heavily campaigned or competed every other weekend and who was very consistent to the jumps -- indeed, that's in my book a very good sign. it's a little different when someone is trying to become established at a level or demonstrating that s/he can prove themselves on a big stage: then you want to see that they don't fall apart in show jump, or are pretty consistent in getting better ribbons.

Remember at the end of the day that the selectors have a ridiculously hard job: they are trying to match talent and experience and soundness and luck and have all four show up in top form on three particular days. It's outrageously hard to get that right, particularly when occasionally the horses haven't read the handbook. At the best, I would guess they placed a bet on having the U.S.'s most experienced combination who has proven repeatedly that they will jump around and leave the jumps up on Sunday. This time, it didn't go as predicted and it is heartbreaking. But it wasn't a low probability bet for them to have made.

[Kementari]

This is pretty obvious reading your thoughts on the matter.

I've also, on more than one occasion, been responsible for REALLY BAD THINGS happening, not to horses, but to fellow human beings. Makes you really, really reluctant to judge other people for making mistakes. Even bad mistakes. I haven't walked a mile in AT's shoes, nor has she walked a mile in mine, but I do believe I can put myself in her place, and have done so. Forgiveness and empathy isn't something you necessarily seek out from others, but it's an awfully nice thing to sense when you look someone in the eye. Doesn't do the donor any harm, either. We could do with some more of it, all things considered, in our world. :yes:

Double amen. :yes:

I have always thought that if there is just one thing we should always remember when dealing with our fellow human beings, it is "There but for the grace of God go I" (or, for the non-religious, "There but for fortune...").

[mbarrett]

I think people have very different levels of forgiveness. Some people will never forgive AT for the Le Samari breakdown, while others have come to terms with it and have moved on.

I think it comes down to the fact that all of us, including BNRs, are human too. We/they make mistakes. We all make mistakes. Some big, some small. Some do major harm, some do not. Some are in the public eye, some are not.

I think none of us can really pass judgment because we are all human. The ultimate judgement will take place by a higher authority.

Remember, we will all make mistakes. Most of us will never make a mistake like AT did, but who's to know you won't? Can any of us name a person who has NEVER made any type of mistake in their life? As far as I know, there are no perfect people.

As for me, life goes on, the FEI has passed out their punishment, and AT will have to live with the accident the rest of her life. I'm sure it'll play in her head over and over in the darkness of night. That's punishment enough, it's never ending, it's torture.

Frankly, I've moved on from the whole thing.

[Camstock]

I'm with LAZ who said: "Some people believe that it was a horrible, horrible mistake that shes wishes she could take back for the rest of her life, and think "there but for the grace of God go I"."

I wish peace to Amy, and bless and thank Le Samarai's spirit. His death doesn't go in vain for me. I am reminded that every swing into the tack on a sound horse is a blessing.

[Alice]

I'd like to think we would all forgive a mistake.

But it gets more difficult when you are asked to forgive a 30+ seconds of a mistake(s).

And my feelings about the incident have changed. Originally while reading about it I felt not only sorry for the loss of a great horse, but sympathy for AT as well. That all went out the window after viewing the video.

So initially I was of the thinking that accidents happen whenever we use horses for sport, poor AT, to exactly the opposite after viewing the actual incident.

Forgive a mistake? Absolutely. No need to point out we've all made them. But an on-going heinous error in a professional's judgement? That is asking forgivenss for quite a bit more.

Representative of a country? Member of governing bodies? Hmmm. Nope.

[retreadeventer]

Pushing a horse to its death - intentional or not - that rider should always be on probabation. .


hahhahhahahahah
Then about ALL of the top ten percent advanced riders in America wouldn't be suitable morally for the team.....?

In the horse business any length of time you are going to have one die under you someplace, especially if it's not a pasture potato or weekend trail horse. Are you specifically talking about a horse dying as a result of cross country competition? Or anyplace? Then there are a HOST of USET riders that wouldn't fit your criteria. The law of averages has caught up to them as it would anyone in the horse business more than five minutes.

[Kementari]

But it gets more difficult when you are asked to forgive a 30+ seconds of a mistake(s).

30 seconds out of a lifetime is barely measurable. If I made only 30 seconds of major, life-altering mistakes in my life, I would consider myself lucky.

[deltawave]

But it gets more difficult when you are asked to forgive a 30+ seconds of a mistake(s).

Wow, I'm pretty sure I must've used up my allotted 30 seconds by now, too. :(

[Sudi's Girl]

Ok, I’ve been biting my lip on this one for a while, but I’ll go ahead and share my input, fwiw.

I guess the problem I see is AT is not just a run of the mill eventer who made a horrible mistake – and we cannot treat her as such. She’s a professional, a trainer, an Olympian - a representative of OUR country who made a VERY public mistake. Whether she knew what was going on is simply irrelevant. Whether or not she is a good person is also irrelevant. When someone in that “position of authority” (for lack of a better phrase) makes that kind of mistake, the world is going to want to see her step back for a while and “pay her time.” Whether they like it or not, someone in that position is obligated to be an example to everyone else – it’s expected that they show good sportsmanship. Something like this simply can’t be blown off. And IMO, that’s a risk she took the first time she represented our country at an event. At that level you get two extremes: the really good AND the really bad. Unfortunately, she's getting hammered with the really bad right now. And this is not to say that someone like AT will never make a mistake (obviously not one ULR is perfect). But, half of the mistake is how you fix it – and this is where I believe a lot of the controversy is stemming.

Do I wish her to have to suffer through threads like this for the rest of her life? No way. I don’t wish that on anyone.

[KellyS]

And this is not to say that someone like AT will never make a mistake (obviously not one ULR is perfect). But, half of the mistake is how you fix it – and this is where I believe a lot of the controversy is stemming.

Really well put...this is where the difference was for me...

I saw the break down on video and it made me absolutely sick to my stomach. I felt horrible for Amy and at that point did not judge her one way or the other.

However, the turning point for me was listening to the excuses that she produced in the immediate aftermath of the tragic incident. The one excuse offered up by her (and CMP) was that Le Samurai was "locked" on to the fence and it would have been more dangerous to pull him up. I couldn't believe they were saying that when it was so obvious (to anyone watching that video or there in person) that the horse was so, so lame and ready to stop as soon as his rider stopped pressing him to continue.

I really could care less about the apologies issued after that...it was the immediate response to the incident, before anyone was trying to make it politically correct, that made me lose respect for her as a horsewoman and eventer. Sure, we've all had lapses in judgement, some minor and some even tragic, but it's how you handle it in the aftermath. Most people on this board will be the first to admit when they've made a mistake, instead of trying to justify why they made it.

I do wish Amy the best; however, whether right or wrong, I will never have the respect I had for her before that day at Rolex. I'm so disillusioned with upper level eventing now; this just happened to be one of the incidents that fostered that feeling. And does how we feel really matter? Whether we want her as a spokesperson for the sport or not, TPB are going to put who they want where they want. :sigh:

[RoeVee]

retreadeventer - you have a very different since of 'humor' than I do for that to merit a 'hahaha'.

Yeah, I would say any rider that got slapped by the FEI - for HORSE ABUSE while riding during a competition -should be on the list of riders to 'watch'. That person should certainly NOT be calling people about the safety of the horse. You see *alot* of riders taking falls, many horses getting killed, a bazillion mistakes - but haven't seen many FEI sanctions of 'horse abuse'. Why do you think that is? Could it possibly have anything to do with the duration of which Amy made that crippled horse keep going? A horse that was a cross country *machine* - that was trotting 3 legged lame to the last fence, and still pushed on to make it through the timers so Amy could finish her x-c course. I think probably! I think that is why she got labeled with 'horse abuse'. The FEI didn't think it was a 'mistake' they thought it was 'abuse'.

Really, nothing funny about it. She got charged with horse abuse and everyone is like, meh, no biggie. Just part of everyday life for a US ULR.

Apparently, the selection of 'qualified' riders able to talk for the USEA is so shallow, that someone w/ 'horse abuse' on their record is stellar as compared to the rest of the pool from which to pick. Just sad.

Or maybe I just haven't been following FEI sanctions closely enough - who else of US ULRs has been sanctioned by the FEI with horse abuse. I know Philip Dutton got slapped for the weighted boots - but I don't think that was classified as 'horse abuse'. Maybe horse abuse is so 'common' w/ the ULRs as not to merit any attention?

[Whisper]

I just wanted to clarify my earlier post, Gully! I didn't mean that she can't be re-habbed, and frankly, I think of it more as a mistake that could happen to even the best horsepeople. If it was *SO* obvious in person, why didn't anyone in the audience try to flag her down and get her to stop? However, right now, she's associated in the public mind with very bad judgement and a dead horse. So, she's not a good person to be on any safety committee. In Darren's case, the horse wound up ok, and I think concerns for *HIM* being a safety rep have more to do with how quickly he got back into the game, and the level/quantity of horses he rode in his first competition back. So, likewise, he's an "anti-safety poster child." People just aren't going to respect their judgement on safety topics, and their presence on a safety committee would be likely to impair the public's view of the entire committee. I believe the thinking would be along the lines of, "With people like *THAT*, who are *THEY* to judge?!"

[RoeVee]

exactly Whisper! Wish her the best but she should not be a voice for the sport right now.

[JER]

30 seconds out of a lifetime is barely measurable. If I made only 30 seconds of major, life-altering mistakes in my life, I would consider myself lucky.

While 30 seconds out of a lifetime is barely measurable, 30 seconds of suffering is actually very measurable.

This is a common courtroom tactic when a plaintiff is suing for damages or when a prosecutor is going for a first- or second-degree murder charge. The attorney describes the circumstances of the crime and the victim's suffering, then lets the clock run for 30 seconds (or however long) while the courtroom is silent. 30 seconds is long enough for a perpetrator to change his mind about an attack and long enough to inflict considerable suffering.

(I am not an attorney but I've had to write too many courtroom scenes. :))

The week after Rolex, I was at Badminton, where I saw a French rider pull up his horse that had an artery cut by the jump flag. His horse never took a lame step, it just looked like a routine knock of a fence flag, and he was just a short turn away from his next fence, but the crowd was yelling and waving to get his attention. He pulled up very quickly, saw the blood on his horse's leg and jumped off.

gully's pilot, I didn't know you had a personal connection to AT. That makes 'forgiveness' relevant in some way that it doesn't to those of us who don't know her or have any reason to know her. I don't think about the LS incident in terms of forgiveness at all -- I think it's an example of how the FEI/USEF system is broken and corrupt.

[Whisper]

His horse never took a lame step, it just looked like a routine knock of a fence flag, and he was just a short turn away from his next fence, but the crowd was yelling and waving to get his attention. He pulled up very quickly, saw the blood on his horse's leg and jumped off.

See, that's the point I was making. I wasn't there, obviously, but I saw the video, and didn't hear about *anyone*, much less the whole crowd, trying to flag her down and let her know something was wrong!

Some horses have a bit of a rough, unbalanced gallop anyway. In 2-point, it's harder for me to feel what the horse's footfalls are doing, though I assume that more advanced/experienced riders are better at it. I've rode servicably sound, but slightly "off" horses before (they were cleared by the vet to work, and often started out creaky, but warmed up out of it). In many cases, keeping working them lightly, to the best of their ability, is good for them, and helps keep their condition from worsening (especially stuff like arthritis and stifle issues). I can usually tell if one of the horses with a chronic problem is having a bad day, and if something feels weird, I'll ask a ground person to take a look. I can't guarantee if if a horse were to suffer an injury, I would immediately feel it. I think so, I hope so, but I can't know for sure, especially since some horses are very stoic, and some feel weird all the time.

Yes, the horse suffered for 30 seconds, but I don't think she *deliberately* abused/tortured the horse at all. There is a big difference between that and a criminal act.

[deltawave]

Whether she knew what was going on is simply irrelevant. Whether or not she is a good person is also irrelevant. It's not irrelevant to me. Yes, I see your point that she shouldn't be a representative for safety-mindedness right now, any more so than Darren Chiacchia should. But in terms of the original poster's question--"what would it take for (me) to forgive AT?"--her stated apology and the fact that I have also screwed up royally and inflicted some very serious things on another living being is VERY relevant.

Yes, she was convicted of "abuse". Yes, she is responsible for the death of the horse. Her sentence was handed down and served. Why, exactly, is she still a pariah to some people? Forgiveness is not the same thing as "I can pretend it never happened". It did happen. It's over. I just don't see how or why this can't be something that people move on and recover from. Someone's bad judgment in the heat of the moment is held against them forever in peoples' every day lives? Really? Wow, I'm sure glad the people I know and love feel differently.

[JGHIRETIRE]

Here's a question - (I'm sure I'll get ripped for this) but why is it up to us to forgive her?? Why are we so important that it matters??

I am truly of the opinion that no one can know what it was like for her. It's easy to say what we shoulda/coulda done but none of us was there.

I also think that no one can be harder on her than she is on herself.

[RoeVee]

Interesting point Deltawave - I assumed the poster meant 'forgive' in the aspect that AT could be a leader for USEA and should be a caller for the 'Watch List'. Or represent the US in the Olympics. Or the various other aspects that AT is currently doing or did.

On a personal 'forgiveness' - I don't think many posters on this board know her at that 'level'. I certainly don't.

[Sudi's Girl]

But in terms of the original poster's question--"what would it take for (me) to forgive AT?"--her stated apology and the fact that I have also screwed up royally and inflicted some very serious things on another living being is VERY relevant.
--------agreed - I don't know her any better than to accept that, and that's fine.

Yes, she was convicted of "abuse". Yes, she is responsible for the death of the horse. Her sentence was handed down and served. Why, exactly, is she still a pariah to some people?
--------Because the sentence wasn't fitting perhaps? At least that's the sentiment that I'm perceiving from the members of this board. What I'm picking up is that part of her sentence should be "not to represent the US in international competition for ...extended period of time" and "Not to represent safety."
FWIW, I think she is definitely qualified to come back and fill in these capacities eventually - everyone deserves a chance to learn from their mistakes. However, the immediacy of these events is what I see as making a stir.

Forgiveness is not the same thing as "I can pretend it never happened". It did happen. It's over. I just don't see how or why this can't be something that people move on and recover from. Someone's bad judgment in the heat of the moment is held against them forever in peoples' every day lives? Really? Wow, I'm sure glad the people I know and love feel differently.

Well this certainly isn't something I carry around with me on a daily basis - in fact it's not something I think about until I come onto this board really. I totally agree that this subject has been beaten to death. What's done is done and decisions have been made. Let's let it rest.

[JER]

Yes, the horse suffered for 30 seconds, but I don't think she *deliberately* abused/tortured the horse at all. There is a big difference between that and a criminal act.

It's the difference between first-degree animal cruelty and second-degree animal cruelty.

In animal abuse/cruelty/negligence cases, you can be convicted of abuse without intent to abuse or knowledge of the abuse. If an ignorant owner/caretaker fails to provide for an animal, it's still abuse, just a lesser charge.

Either way, abuse is abuse, especially from the POV of the abused. And this underscores why TPTB shouldn't take these matters lightly when they decide to police themselves. As has happened in other sports (equestrian and non), a local jurisdiction might decide to step in and take on the case according to the law and the courts, which might be less understanding of the circumstances.

It follows that our safety committees and ICP rosters and Watch Lists should hold up to outside scrutiny. Does it raise eyebrows and questions to have a convicted animal abuser in those positions? Of course.

[sisu27]

Sisu27, forgiving Amy doesn't mean that LS's death was OK. It means no longer being angry with her about LS's death. You're right, she doesn't need forgiveness from any of the posters here, but lots of people still seem really angry toward her. Your post sounds as though you'd only forgive someone if you could see yourself potentially doing the wrong they did--is that true? If so, it's an interesting thought, but not one I see working out very well in a long span of life.

No, my point was that if smurfs like me can feel a horse is very slightly off and make the decision to pull up then I would think that an ULR with ten times the experience that I have would also be able to do so. The only thing I can think is that she chose not to and I can't forgive her for that. That horse wasn't just a little off. We all make mistakes no matter how hard we try but I have trouble calling what I saw a mistake. I call it negligent and it makes me sick. I'm sure she didn't set out to kill her horse that day but it is sort a matter of semantics in this case.

[deltawave]

The only thing I can think is that she chose not to and I can't forgive her for that.

That's not the only scenario I can think of. In fact, I have a really hard time imagining that particular scenario altogether. She felt the horse go off and just didn't care? That defies everything I've ever seen, heard, or witnessed about her or any other horseman at that level.

On the other hand, it's pretty easy for me to imagine her feeling something, freezing mentally, and having adrenalin kick in as it usually does on XC, and screwing up. Making the wrong choice. Who here hasn't done so in the thick of a stressful situation?

[sisu27]

That's not the only scenario I can think of. In fact, I have a really hard time imagining that particular scenario altogether. She felt the horse go off and just didn't care? That defies everything I've ever seen, heard, or witnessed about her or any other horseman at that level.

On the other hand, it's pretty easy for me to imagine her feeling something, freezing mentally, and having adrenalin kick in as it usually does on XC, and screwing up. Making the wrong choice. Who here hasn't done so in the thick of a stressful situation?

I was standing there, I watched the DVD when I got home to confirm I wasn't losing my mind. The horse was seriously 3-legged...for quite a while. I would love to believe your scenario is possible but I struggle with that. I'm not super emotional but that scene rocked my sense of what "horsemen" at "that level" were all about. LA didn't help to preserve my apparent idealistic view of ULRs in eventing as the ultimate horsemen that is now gone forever. Sorry, that's just where I'm at. I will continue to event and continue to go to Rolex every year dreaming of one day getting a ride at that level but it will never be the same after the last 2 years.

[retreadeventer]

retreadeventer - you have a very different since of 'humor' than I do for that to merit a 'hahaha'.

Yeah, I would say any rider that got slapped by the FEI - for HORSE ABUSE while riding during a competition -should be on the list of riders to 'watch'. That person should certainly NOT be calling people about the safety of the horse. You see *alot* of riders taking falls, many horses getting killed, a bazillion mistakes - but haven't seen many FEI sanctions of 'horse abuse'. Why do you think that is? Could it possibly have anything to do with the duration of which Amy made that crippled horse keep going? A horse that was a cross country *machine* - that was trotting 3 legged lame to the last fence, and still pushed on to make it through the timers so Amy could finish her x-c course. I think probably! I think that is why she got labeled with 'horse abuse'. The FEI didn't think it was a 'mistake' they thought it was 'abuse'.

Really, nothing funny about it. She got charged with horse abuse and everyone is like, meh, no biggie. Just part of everyday life for a US ULR.

Apparently, the selection of 'qualified' riders able to talk for the USEA is so shallow, that someone w/ 'horse abuse' on their record is stellar as compared to the rest of the pool from which to pick. Just sad.

Or maybe I just haven't been following FEI sanctions closely enough - who else of US ULRs has been sanctioned by the FEI with horse abuse. I know Philip Dutton got slapped for the weighted boots - but I don't think that was classified as 'horse abuse'. Maybe horse abuse is so 'common' w/ the ULRs as not to merit any attention?


You know, we've had this discussion before on this board - over and over.

Personally, I think one of the reasons for the continual repeat of the criticisms is most people who are critical don't understand what happened. Why, why, why. What she did. What the horse did. What she didn't do. What the FEI did. What the FEI didn't do. What we should do, what we shouldn't do.

Listen up, folks: horses are like that.
Sometimes there just aren't answers.
Sometimes you just don't know why the horse continues. Sometimes you don't know why the horse that won a race the week before and has been perfect all week goes out onto the track and is winning until three steps before the wire and inexplicably crosses his legs and falls down. That's the horse business, folks. That's what happens when you work with a 1,000-lb. animal with a brain the size of an apple who has a mind of your own. And some have great hearts and love what they do and keep doing it until they surprise even themselves with a problem that stops them in their tracks.

I think it bears repeating. At the risk of sounding tired of the continual ignorance shown by some posters, nobody specifically, just the tone of the posts -- you just don't know.

Unless and until you have ridden horses at the highest levels of competition, you really don't know how it feels to have a horse break down underneath you. It's not just that simple as "feeling them a bit off". Sometimes you are LUCKY to feel that, horses go for a LONG time on stuff you have no idea they have. I bet about half the people posting on this thread have a horse with a lameness or life threatening condition *right now* they don't even know about. Sorry to burst any bubbles out there. If it were and we all were perfect then nobody would have to worry about FEI tribunals and bulletin boards that can't seem to stop hurting people because they "don't understand". It's creepy how people just can't seem to get over the fact that horses are not perfect and that there are some things we can't explain. Blaming people doesn't fix it. Accept that there are mysteries in the horse world and stop accusing people.

Let me give you an example of "abuse" and how difficult it is to armchair quarterback.
I raised a filly from conception to three years old. I was there when she was bred, foaled, weaned, broken to lead, to harness and to race. She was BORN headshy. That's just the way she was. Some horses are just sensitive that way and she was one. That filly was NEVER EVER struck with anything ever. I handled her for her whole life. Yet I had a vet who came out to do something in the barn, went to grab her halter like the old geldings next to her, and had her jump away from his darting hand, accuse me of "abuse". That horse is headshy; who beat her around the head? Was his question. That was totally offensive to me. No one had ever touched her. Yet he assumed, with a 5-second familiarity with the horse, that I abused her to get her headshy like that.

The longer you are around lots of horses, the more you learn about them and how they are. Some horses hide lots of stuff because they live to work. Some horses are born headshy. Sometimes there are no answers. Some of you need to get to a point where you realize this and stop the hurtful and derogatory messages that help nothing and no one. Obviously it still bothers a lot of people, and I think it is because they think they know about horses and how they are. And I'm telling you you don't, no one does, not the greatest horsemen alive. When the next perfect horseman posts on this board, he77 will freeze over.
JMHO.

[kdow]

On the other hand, it's pretty easy for me to imagine her feeling something, freezing mentally, and having adrenalin kick in as it usually does on XC, and screwing up. Making the wrong choice. Who here hasn't done so in the thick of a stressful situation?

My concern there would be- if the adrenalin response is such that she loses her ability to make sound decisions, and she does not have a baseline of training to fall back on in that situation, then should she be riding at a level where she can expect to encounter that level of adrenalin?

I.e. if you cannot exercise good judgment in a given situation (such as high level competition) then you should not PUT YOURSELF in that situation. Now, you may not know that you can't handle a situation until you have experience with it, but since it was not AT's first high level event, she can't use the excuse that she didn't know what to expect re: adrenalin and so on. (And if someone was going to use that excuse, I'd darn well expect that they wouldn't be competing at that level again any time soon.)

I also personally have a big issue with any kind of "adrenalin rush" reasoning for excusing AT from responsibility, since as I understand it she's worked successfully as some type of first-responder (firefighter?) for several years, and I am quite sure in that job she had more than enough experiences during which she could become familiar with the way her biochemistry changes during moments of heightened stress/tension/excitement- and certainly during a fire, she was expected to be able to DO HER JOB ANYWAY. In fact, she was employed in part BECAUSE of her ability to do her job under stressful conditions. Not everyone is cut out to be a firefighter/EMT/etc.

It seems fair to say, given her employment history, that it's not unreasonable to expect her to be able to do her job (i.e. be a responsible horseman and rider) under the conditions of an event also.

[And so those who like can ignore my post entirely: No, I am not an event rider, so I haven't been in an upper level eventing competition. However, I have worked for many years in a job which was high stress and required me to be able to function rationally under emergency conditions, so I do think I have some experience with regards to the basic idea of what you do when you're hit with an adrenalin rush.]

[deltawave]

My concern there would be- if the adrenalin response is such that she loses her ability to make sound decisions, and she does not have a baseline of training to fall back on in that situation, then should she be riding at a level where she can expect to encounter that level of adrenalin?Well, is anyone? She's a firefighter. I daresay she's been in worse situations than galloping around Rolex. So have I. MOST of the time, the instinctive response is the correct one, and all goes according to plan/training/practice. The rest of the time it's called being human. I don't know what else to say or how to say it. We aren't machines.

First person to get to the end of a long life without screwing something up royally raise their hand. I'm not going to hold my breath. :) AT had the misfortune to do it in front of a large group of people. Most of our royal f**kups are private.

[flyingchange]

The most ironic posts I have read on this thread are the ones that cast judgement on other posters while at the same time chastizing them for being judgemental.

[gully's pilot]

Deltawave, we've got to get together sometime--the more I read your posts, the more I like you.

[deltawave]

Same here. :)

[Jealoushe]

The most ironic posts I have read on this thread are the ones that cast judgement on other posters while at the same time chastizing them for being judgemental.

agreed, like I said earlier in this thread...

If people are allowed to be annoyed because some people can't forgive and forget (me)......then those people (me, and others) are allowed to be annoyed at those who have forgave and forgot.

[RoeVee]

Jealoushe and FlyingChange - I am with you two.

[kdow]

Well, is anyone? She's a firefighter. I daresay she's been in worse situations than galloping around Rolex. So have I. MOST of the time, the instinctive response is the correct one, and all goes according to plan/training/practice. The rest of the time it's called being human. I don't know what else to say or how to say it. We aren't machines.


We aren't machines, but we are responsible. And particularly as riders, we are responsible for the safety and wellbeing of the horses we ride. To me, this means that in a situation where adrenaline may be clouding your judgment, the default response (i.e. the 'in case of emergency' training) should be the one which is *SAFEST* for the *HORSE*. (With the proviso that it should not put the rider or other people in the area at increased risk, but that doesn't seem to apply in this case.)

I.e. you say before you even get on the horse "if I feel like he's NQR, I will stop and find out, regardless of where I am on course, because I'd rather lose the competition than permanently lame or kill my horse" - and then you don't HAVE to decide while your judgment is impaired, because you already know what you're going to do if there's any question in your mind about what is going on with the horse.

Now, I am not saying that AT is obviously guilty as sin and intentionally rode LS into the ground- there are any number of things which could have been going on which resulted in the situation as it played out, some of which put the blame squarely at her doorstep, and others of which are simply tragic accidents/mistakes. There's a whole range to choose from.

All I'm saying is that the "oh, adrenalin rush" excuse doesn't work for me because an adrenalin rush is an expected element of competing, particularly at the upper levels, and learning how to deal with that and having rules and techniques for dealing with the rush and associated problems SHOULD BE part of being a responsible and functional competitive rider. *PARTICULARLY* for one who has had experience training for high stress situations in other areas, and can thus be reasonably expected to have a better than average understanding of how she personally responds to the need to make decisions in a high stress environment.

If it had been her first really big competition, then maybe she'd get a little benefit of the doubt. But it wasn't, and so she doesn't.

[RoeVee]

Gully's Pilot - I think you got your answer to your post.

Some people view AT's incident at Rolex as part of being an upper level rider.

Some people view AT's incident at Rolex as horse abuse, which she was convicted of by the FEI. As such, she is unfit to be a leader in our sport.

I don't think this about 'forgiving' AT. Just people view the same facts/video differently.

Hopefully, this will be the last thread about AT. Maybe with time, people will feel differently; or maybe with time, the USEA can find different people that can lead the sport.

[JAM]

That's not the only scenario I can think of. In fact, I have a really hard time imagining that particular scenario altogether. She felt the horse go off and just didn't care? That defies everything I've ever seen, heard, or witnessed about her or any other horseman at that level.

On the other hand, it's pretty easy for me to imagine her feeling something, freezing mentally, and having adrenalin kick in as it usually does on XC, and screwing up. Making the wrong choice. Who here hasn't done so in the thick of a stressful situation?
If she froze mentally, why did she get off the horse instantly after crossing the finish line and look down at the horse's legs?

[Foxtrot's]

I have kept out of this thread so far - but we can sure learn a lot about our fellow COTHers from reading this, whichever view we take.

[deltawave]

You'd have to ask her, I guess.

[equestrianerd]

If she froze mentally, why did she get off the horse instantly after crossing the finish line and look down at the horse's legs?

I'm not really an AT fan, but that's preceded the 2007 Rolex. Regardless, I don't know anyone who would finish a 4* cross-country course and not jump off and check the legs. Presumably (never having run a horse at that level) the only other immediate things to check are heart rate, temperature (?), and respiration, and those aren't really possible the instant you get off the horse. The legs, however, are pretty obvious...I'd want to know if my horse has a cut from a fence, or a hot leg, or somehow smacked a jump the wrong way and now has a knee the size of a melon, etc. (This is assuming we had an awesome trip, I'd especially want to know if I thought there was something questionable about the trip.)

I agree that my indignation (for lack of a better word) is with the system, not AT herself. Having lost a horse (from a pasture accident, not out from under me in competition), I can only imagine what she's gone through emotionally, and won't judge her apology/lack thereof. I do think TPTB have a wide range of riders they could have chosen from (both for Olympics and spokespeople/watch list people), and perhaps AT herself is not the best choice.

[sisu27]

No nerd...she pulled up right over the finish line...not where everyone else dismounts (in the box)but immediately upon crossing the finish line she dismounted.

[LLDM]

Forgiving AT as a person is entirely different from approving of her as a decision maker for dangerous riding, a member of any safety committee and/or wanting her to represent the USA on a TEAM.

I never hated her. But hate immensely what she did to Le Samurai.

What would it take for me not to "react" when Amy's name is trotted out for yet another position of power? It would take some substantial effort (from those who continue to trot her out) to address that part of horse safety that comes from pushing the envelope.

All the "safe" fences, dangerous rider lists/penalties/DQs, course design improvements, educational opportunities, etc., etc., etc. will not save one horse if people are not taught and actively encouraged to err on the side of their horse. Those who pull up when in doubt should be the ones who are elevated - not the ones who fail to do so.

It will always be more about what they do - not what they say.

But, if the upper levels of eventing are really as Retread has described them (and I am afraid they are), my interest in attempting to improve it will continue to shrivel.

SCFarm

[whoacorwin]

Am I the only one who, as I read through all the thoughts on AT and her treatment of LS , begininng to think perhaps the Elite Upper Levels of the sport should be done away with?

If the main excuse/reason for her behavior is the extreme emotion that courses through a ULR on course to cause such a "lapse" in judgement that only those Elite Riders can understand, do we really want to continue to endanger the horses and these riders?

If this is truly what happens out there as many have spoken up to verify I ask again, is it worth it? Cause I am just not getting it.

[RoeVee]

LLDM - very well stated. It is not about HER but about the role she is always filling!!!

[KellyS]

My husband, who is a police officer and also a volunteer firefighter, has an interesting saying--

"In a split second, you have to make a decision that others will spend a lifetime judging."

This was referring to the decision whether to shot someone or not, but it's a decision that police officers are faced with and they make a split second decision that can mean the difference between life and death.

It's very similar to the situations faced in firefighting--split second decisions are made and once again, lives are often in the balance. Both police officers and firefighters are trained about how to react to these situations--and for a spouse, it means that my husband comes home at the end of a shift.

In Amy's case, she had seconds upon seconds to make a decision. Thirty seconds to decide whether to pull an obviously lame, laboring horse up, which is a lifetime when a horse's every step is immensely painful. For someone trained to make decisions in a second, with lives in the balance, I don't buy the excuse that she "froze mentally."

Compare it to the situation with Barbaro--his jockey jumped off him as soon as he felt something was terribly off. He had all the pressures of the Triple Crown hype hanging over him and was riding a fit racehorse traveling at much faster speeds than Le Samurai was at the end of cross country. But he made a split second decision--one that put the horse's best interests at heart.

[2Cool4U]

I haven't posted about the Amy incident because it has taken me 1.5 years to really understand how I feel. I saw the video clip and I was appalled. Yes, immediately I was extremely angry with AT for what she put LS thru when CLEARLY the horse was lame. I don't buy that "she didn't know". I don't forgive her, but I've let it go.

My anger now is directed towards TPTB. They continue to make extremely poor decisions. How can they name AT as a "DR watcher" knowing that the majority of the people that financially support the sport, have not forgiven the "mistake"? My gripe is not with just AT, but DC & LA, too. I wish CMP would just go away.

I feel that the only way to make a statement to TPTB about how you feel is to not financially support the sport anymore. I have done so. I am not renewing my memberships this year. Not because of the AT "mistake" but the many other ways that TPTB have made poor decisions. If enough people would do the same, it might bring some awareness to the issue.

I love the sport, don't get me wrong. I don't compete at the ULs. I can still have fun at unrecognized events. That's what it should be about....FUN. This political crap is just more frustration that I can live without.

[TBCollector]

Fabulous post, Kelly.
Beyond the specific AT situation are TPTB's favoritism and perceived blind support of certain riders (AT included). Look at the Olympic selection process...I mean, good god. That was exactly the team of riders they planned on sending all year. It borders on cruel to make someone like Jennifer Wooten drive across the country thinking she might actually have a shot at a Team spot with (hello!) a horse that actually deserved to be on it...and then tell her (as MP did), "Hey, good job, but you need to get some more upper level horses and clients, and let's talk in four years)."

My husband, who is a police officer and also a volunteer firefighter, has an interesting saying--

"In a split second, you have to make a decision that others will spend a lifetime judging."

This was referring to the decision whether to shot someone or not, but it's a decision that police officers are faced with and they make a split second decision that can mean the difference between life and death.

It's very similar to the situations faced in firefighting--split second decisions are made and once again, lives are often in the balance. Both police officers and firefighters are trained about how to react to these situations--and for a spouse, it means that my husband comes home at the end of a shift.

In Amy's case, she had seconds upon seconds to make a decision. Thirty seconds to decide whether to pull an obviously lame, laboring horse up, which is a lifetime when a horse's every step is immensely painful. For someone trained to make decisions in a second, with lives in the balance, I don't buy the excuse that she "froze mentally."

Compare it to the situation with Barbaro--his jockey jumped off him as soon as he felt something was terribly off. He had all the pressures of the Triple Crown hype hanging over him and was riding a fit racehorse traveling at much faster speeds than Le Samurai was at the end of cross country. But he made a split second decision--one that put the horse's best interests at heart.

[magnolia73]

If the main excuse/reason for her behavior is the extreme emotion that courses through a ULR on course to cause such a "lapse" in judgement that only those Elite Riders can understand, do we really want to continue to endanger the horses and these riders?

What's the saying- don't hate the player, hate the game. It is a bit disturbing that so few ULR have a record with no close calls, major crashes requiring an ambulance, and career or even life ending injuries for horses. If the learning curve to get to the Olympics is a few dead or destroyed horses, its a wee bit too steep.

[JenJ]

IMO, she has exhibited poor judgment in NOT declining such a public powerful position as being an enforcer of the Watch List.
She clearly has the support of other UL riders, of her sponsors and owners and students and clients, etc. and has every right to continue her career as a rider, coach, trainer. But she has to know and understand that her very public mistake took place with countless people watching live or on the live internet feed and that all us "nobodies" were horrified and sickened by what we saw, and that the mention of her name will unfortunately immediately bring back those memories. I can forgive her but it will be a long time before, if ever, I forget.

I think she would do herself a big favour to stay out of the spotlight for a few years.

[Ruth0552]

For me it is not about forgiveness...

When I started riding as a kid it was because I. Love. Horses. I think at every level and in every discipline, the horses come first. They are not machines or handbags. They are living breathing creatures that deserve my respect and require my assistance to survive. Any professional in this sport who cannot put the horse first 100% of the time is not deserving of my respect. I realize that everyone makes mistakes, but I also realize that all too often in the upper levels of every discipline (not just eventing), riders minds are clouded by competition and they fail to put the horses first.

[vineyridge]

I would guess that for many of us what would completely rehabilitate AT in our minds would be for her to be once again in that situation--1st at Rolex, toward the end of XC with a laboring or lame horse--and get off right then. That would show that she really has taken the LS lesson to heart and learned from it.

If broken horses are so much a part of UL Riding, that opportunity is sure to come at some point. (being mildly ironic here.)

[snoopy]

[B]Fabulous post, Kelly.
Beyond the specific AT situation are TPTB's favoritism and perceived blind support of certain riders (AT included). Look at the Olympic selection process...I mean, good god. That was exactly the team of riders they planned on sending all year. It borders on cruel to make someone like Jennifer Wooten drive across the country thinking she might actually have a shot at a Team spot with (hello!) a horse that actually deserved to be on it...and then tell her (as MP did), "Hey, good job, but you need to get some more upper level horses and clients, and let's talk in four years)."



Yes that is the galling thing...these riders spend alot of money in time, travel, and competing thinking they stand a chance. I have said time and time again that Mark's "chat up" line is...:how many horses/owners do you have and who are your sponsors". There is no doubt in my mind that he said that to Jennifer. The team (as he would have liked to see it) was chosen VERY early in the spring, though because of some devestating events, it did not work out as he would have liked.

[Snapdragon]

That line of thinking is perplexing to me. If you have the great horse and you're both going like gangbusters, why does it matter whether you have sponsors/clients/horses in the bag? For what?

The selection is for the now, not for the future. Oh, and gee, once given the great opportunity to compete in the Olympics, that would certainly give a rider a leg up on getting more sponsors/clients/horses.

Makes me even more amazed by those riders with the one great horse who put themselves out there and subject themselves to such an insulting mindset.

I guess the cynic in me could guess it's just a line of BS to justify selecting the not-so-ready horses with the politically connected riders.

[Gnep]

I will respin this thread.
Does anybody have to forgive AT anything, besides the people directly affected, thats horse ownwer, grooms the so called Team AT, absolutely No. Thats makes the question rather moot.
If not stupid.

The question should be, should anybody that has been found guilty by the highest court of the sport, for what ever, be a spokes person, or a representif of the USEF, USEA and those Members. Should somebody, who has been considered in violation of the rules by the stewards and DQed and is waiting for the hearings, be allowed to quailify for the National Team.

To respin it further, is it smart, or good for the sport, to install a system to controll dangerous riding, were yellow carded riders, riders that are convicted for seriously breaking the rules, be the ones who decide who will go on the list.
Is it smart to install a system, that will have 1% judge 99% and the 1% judge themself

Is it smart, to install a system, that comes from the top down, were the top is who has the problem.

Hypotetical, if PD, KOC, AT, or even Mike ( I know him and like him ), I don't know the other guy, calls me I would laugh my skinny butt of, because I would have no problem to show them, that they do the same thing, Dangerous Riding, on a regular base, or have done it, it would be a very embarising call for them.

Same naturally for the people who put you and me on the list.

It is a very badly thought out idea, open to fraud, cronyism, the top 1% controlling the majority, self apointed.

To me this is a leadership, that has no idea, absolutely no idea, how to deal with the problem, throw a ton of rules at it, and someting will work, no plan, no understanding and completly out of touch with the reality.

They are not helping the sport, with their poor decisions.

[wabadou]

It is a very badly thought out idea, open to fraud, cronyism, the top 1% controlling the majority, self apointed.

To me this is a leadership, that has no idea, absolutely no idea, how to deal with the problem, throw a ton of rules at it, and someting will work, no plan, no understanding and completly out of touch with the reality.
.

Amen.
Do as I say but not as I do....it not only smacks of hypocrisy but all that aside the basic question remains...who the *heck* thought this was a good idea and what alternate reality are they coming from..???

JMHO...

[2boys]

For me it is not about forgiveness...

When I started riding as a kid it was because I. Love. Horses. I think at every level and in every discipline, the horses come first. They are not machines or handbags. They are living breathing creatures that deserve my respect and require my assistance to survive. Any professional in this sport who cannot put the horse first 100% of the time is not deserving of my respect. I realize that everyone makes mistakes, but I also realize that all too often in the upper levels of every discipline (not just eventing), riders minds are clouded by competition and they fail to put the horses first.

Ditto this. And whether or not anyone cares if *I* personally forgive them probably IS a moot point. But I appreciate a forum in which I am able to read and/or express opinions related to such issues. Upper level everythings (whether it be government, ULRs/ULTs, etc,) tend to ignore the "lower level" folk. It is nice that *we* can have a voice in this.

I also think it is interesting how upper level crowds tend to blow off lower level crowds with phrases like, "you don't know what it takes to be up here". What is sort of ironic is that maybe we maintain at the lower levels because we tend to put our animals' well-beings in a higher place... hmmm Just throwing it out there.

[ValleyMiss]

I have stayed out of the AT discussions until now, but I do feel the need to point out a few thing. Personally, I don't know AT at all. DO I think she is a horrible person? No. Do I think she has made some bad decisions? Yes. DO I think she should be in such a prominent position in our sport? No.

I was at Rolex in 2007. I stood and watched AT over the last few fences and her horse was very noticably laboring before he jumped the next to last fence. It's not a question of her having 20 or so strides to feel if something was wrong with LS. He pulled a shoe at the Normandy Bank. Now I can't remember which fence that was on course, but there was probably at least 10 jumping efforts between there and the end of the course. I know the jump judge at that fence. And it wasn't a case of he stepped on the shoe and pulled it off, leaving it on the ground. No the shoe went flying up in the air when he pulled it. That is the reason I have a hard time getting over the LS issue. She had plenty of time to realise that something wasn't right. But instead she kicked on a horse that was trying to tell her he was hurting. She kicked him on and hoped that they could get him sound enough to pass the jog.

Should she be crucified for the rest of her life over this? No, as many others have said she was punished by the FEI (yeah I think her punishment was a joke but that's a problem with the FEI not AT) And I am sure that she punishes herself for what happened. But since then she has continued to put herself first and not the good of the sport. She should not have been named to the Olympic Team. There is too much animosity towards here both here and abroad. At this time, she was not the best choice to represent our country. And then to go the Games not at 100%. I was only watching from home on my computer but her cross country ride was scary. She was yanking on her horse's mouth the entire time and it looked like she was barely hanging on. And the part that really upset me was when she fell off. She just got up and walked away, walked away from her horse. Now I could be wrong because it wasn't a close up shot, but she looked pissed off to have fallen and been eliminated. She never even looked at her horse to see if he was ok. That bugs me. That shows me that you care about winning and not the horse.

I don't think it is our place to forgive AT for what happened. That's not in our hands. Will we get to a point where people can move past this? I don't know. I find it hard to do that when she it being thrust into the limelight of our sport at a time when it needs better role models. Might things be different if she would have laid low for a while, maybe waited until the 2012 Games? Yeah I think so, I for one might have had a better reaction to her being named to our team if a few more years had passed.

Just my two cents, I'm sure many people will disagree. And that's fine, this is one topic I think we will be divided on for a long time to come.

[sofiethewonderhorse]

The team (as he would have liked to see it) was chosen VERY early in the spring, though because of some devestating events, it did not work out as he would have liked.

Hi Snoop, nice to see you again..

I do strongly disagree (you are used to this by now right? :winkgrin:)

Devon won FH by luck of the draw...he was up against several competitors who could have just as easily won....remember?, going into Stadium, Devon was 6th. Rails dropped. Do you think that the other four Competitors dropped Rails so Devon could win? Do you honestly think Amy dropped rails on Leyland so that Devon could win?

In the Spring, we certainly did not think Devon was a candidate and it never occurred to us that he would be selected to the A Training List. In fact, we didn't think he would be selected to any training list!

Another poster has asked why 'proven riders' were chosen in an off year instead of developing riders (in an off year).

Horses have to develop too: the ancient masters dictated to 'develop the horse separate from the rider'

Isn't that exactly what we have seen?

I can think of one 'developing rider' whose parents properly mounted her (with a very experienced horse): she is having safe, successful Rounds at the 3 & 4 star level; she is a beautiful rider and a lovely young woman. She is developing confidence and has the potential to be a very successful Representative for the US .


This is a Country that provides ZERO financial support for its International Athletes (pick a sport, doesn't matter). We just happen to love one of the most expensive sports in the world.

How can we change this? That is the ultimate of 'survival of the fittest' question for those who compete at the UL's

Regards,

Kathryn

[snoopy]

K

I am perplexed by your post....My post and the quote your drew your response from has nothing to do with Devon, but rather the team chosen for HK...or the team that Mark et all would to have liked to have chosen well before the selection trials. There was infact a desired team already in the minds of those who were in the postion to name that team. A series of unfortunate events made that team impossible.

With regards to Devon...well we are in agreement (gasp!!!). He deserves to be on the training list for sure. No one can deny that this is one impressive horse, and one that will surely go on to some great things and most likely represent the US in future competitions...and deservedly so, you must be excited for what is about to come!!!!

And how ironic that after all these posts on the subject of AT (which I purposely stayed mute out of respect for you) that you would target my post for reply.

[hb]

Compare it to the situation with Barbaro--his jockey jumped off him as soon as he felt something was terribly off. He had all the pressures of the Triple Crown hype hanging over him and was riding a fit racehorse traveling at much faster speeds than Le Samurai was at the end of cross country. But he made a split second decision--one that put the horse's best interests at heart.


How many horses had Barbaro's jockey had break down underneath him? What did he do the very first time it happened, was he sure what was going on then? Jockeys have a much different base of experience in this area than most event riders.

[vineyridge]

How many horses had Barbaro's jockey had break down underneath him? What did he do the very first time it happened, was he sure what was going on then? Jockeys have a much different base of experience in this area than most event riders.

pinkdiamondracing talked about this in her earlier post on this thread.

How many of us have had a horse go lame under us while galloping? I certainly have, and it's very obvious when it's on the front. Can't say about a rear lameness without personal experience. But I don't ride as often or as many different horses as a professional rider, so for it to happen to me means it must happen a LOT.

[vineyridge]

How can we change this? That is the ultimate of 'survival of the fittest' question for those who compete at the UL's

We can change it with money, pure and simple. Pwynnorman talked about how to raise money in small increments in one of the other threads. It can be done. Multiple small donations from a single giver and many single givers can add up to a lot of money fast. We get a developing horse/rider fund set up to accept donations by credit card and paypal or something like paypal that isn't quite so expensive, and then send in dribbles over and over. That's how Obama raised his hundreds of millions. There aren't nearly as many eventers but eventers are conditioned to work for the good of the whole. Of course it would be set up to be a charitable deduction.

Until USEF and USEA clean up their acts, they might not be the best choices to administer such a fund; but if one were out there, its very existence might give it some clout with the organizations. The organization that is already there for raising money for individual riders has no quality control, but a fund that had enough money to funnel into a Developing Horse/Rider squad could perhaps sponsor WS abroad and here.

[snoopy]

We can change it with money, pure and simple. Pwynnorman talked about how to raise money in small increments in one of the other threads. It can be done. Multiple small donations from a single giver and many single givers can add up to a lot of money fast. We get a developing horse/rider fund set up to accept donations by credit card and paypal or something like paypal that isn't quite so expensive, and then send in dribbles over and over. That's how Obama raised his hundreds of millions. There aren't nearly as many eventers but eventers are conditioned to work for the good of the whole. Of course it would be set up to be a charitable deduction.

Until USEF and USEA clean up their acts, they might not be the best choices to administer such a fund; but if one were out there, its very existence might give it some clout with the organizations. The organization that is already there for raising money for individual riders has no quality control, but a fund that had enough money to funnel into a Developing Horse/Rider squad could perhaps sponsor WS abroad and here.



with all the talk a favouritism...real or perceived...how would a fund like this be set up to ensure that it was going to those who truley deserved it? There would need to be a concrete criteria that once acheived would allow a particular horse and rider to have access to this fund regardless of personal preference of those who currently chose the training list.

[vineyridge]

with all the talk a favouritism...real or perceived...how would a fund like this be set up to ensure that it was going to those who truley deserved it? There would need to be a concrete criteria once acheived would allow a particular horse and rider to have access to this fund regardless of personal preference of those who currently chose the training list.

I absolutely agree about setting up concrete criteria for access. Seems to me that the criteria would have to be perfectly transparent and literally posted on the fund's website so givers would know how the fund worked before giving. No secrecy, and perhaps a need requirement. If we assume that upper leveling costs 60 or 70k per year per horse, sponsorship doesn't seem feasible. I would think that it would be a lot cheaper to send a young rider and his/her horse to Europe for experience and learning than to try and fund our Team. Also the fund could make grants or microloans for event fees and travel expenses, which would probably be cheaper than sponsorship.

[sofiethewonderhorse]

K

I am perplexed by your post....My post and the quote your drew your response from has nothing to do with Devon, but rather the team chosen for HK...or the team that Mark et all would to have liked to have chosen well before the selection trials. There was infact a desired team already in the minds of those who were in the postion to name that team. A series of unfortunate events made that team impossible.

With regards to Devon...well we are in agreement (gasp!!!). He deserves to be on the training list for sure. No one can deny that this is one impressive horse, and one that will surely go on to some great things and most likely represent the US in future competitions...and deservedly so, you must be excited for what is about to come!!!!

And how ironic that after all these posts on the subject of AT (which I purposely stayed mute out of respect for you) that you would target my post for reply.

Sorry Snoopy, didn't read the entire 8 pages worth, I thought you were referring to the current Winter Training Selection, not the HK team.

You are probably right about HK, the team was probably chosen fairly early on (I have no insider information here).


Happy Thanksgiving

kls

[8seconds]

I know this is an old thread, but I did some thinking about it. I saw first hand what AT did and it was unforgiveable. I also saw LA. We can B & M all we want but we can't change anything. But if we are really affected, we can write to the USET, USEF, and USEA and politely refuse any and all donations if they are going to consider the likes of AT for the team again. At least in the near future. I personally was appalled that AT was chosen for the team and later, as I watched her performance in HK, very embarassed for the USA.
I have had kids that could have done a better job on that course. To have to watch someone ride like that, fall off and then have no concern for her horse was, once again, unforgiveable. I think her true colors are coming to light.

[flutie1]

Here we go again. Haven't we beaten this subject to a pulp?
Spare us!

[snoopy]

I think it can be expected that those new to the BB will undoubtably want to add their own perspective to a topic that has been done time and time again by those of us, who see it as old. But new posters have a voice as well and cannot be faulted for expressing their opinions as so many of us have done in the past.

[deltawave]

I suggest a Christmas-week moratorium on personal snarkiness, sort of a "Peace on Earth, Good Will to All" mode.

Any takers? :) I will refrain from busting chops over on Horse Care. :D

[flutie1]

I suggest a Christmas-week moratorium on personal snarkiness, sort of a "Peace on Earth, Good Will to All" mode.

Any takers? :) I will refrain from busting chops over on Horse Care. :D

I'm up for a "make nice" week. You're on!

[ideayoda]

If a top competitor cannot feel gross uneveness, or is unwilling to pull up, either way there is a problem. One would be of feel, the other of intention.

With DC it is matter of pushing a young horse too fast and not listening to it early on the course (the vid shows a horse clearly backing off from the beginning).

In one the horse suffered, in the other the rider. The rider makes the choices and lives or fails because of those choices.

However, the governing bodies should make HARSHLY clear (with fines and longer suspensions) that the horse comes FIRST. As it is the rider does (witness dressage internationally for a case in point), but the horse is less likely to die/pay the bill.

Courses MUST be more methodical, to promote good training. Yes of course things SHOULD BE done at home, but often (with lack of good leadership) they are not. People ride xcountry like it was a hunter course, it is not, and they ride without good (equitation) skills on the flat (ie flexion is preciptious and the horse too shortened and is rounded by the hand), the horses are rarely straight.

[LLDM]

I don't think it is a lack of Christmas spirit that causes these threads to pop up again this time of year. I think it is more likely the "year-in-review" threads that dredge up the issues over again.

To avoid such perils, maybe we should ask/request that the year end recaps wait until after Christmas. Maybe a final vent week before ringing in a new year with more optimism and less baggage?

One would hope that the salient points have been made and the message is clear to those with the power to enact changes. In addition, one might note just how deeply and firmly these issues are felt and by how many. Also <dammit, why do I see Sarah Palin's face every time I use that word now?> it might go a long way toward toning these issues down when the comprehensive plans and strategies are more widely known and published by our governing bodies.

Ho, Ho, Ho!!!

SCFarm

[LynLyn]

Listen to the Lucinda Green talk at the annual convention that is on the USEA web site. She mentions just how fast things happen on course, you do not know what is going on, and what it is like to try and mentaly work through what you think just happened.

[CarrieK]

I suggest a Christmas-week moratorium on personal snarkiness, sort of a "Peace on Earth, Good Will to All" mode.

Any takers? :) I will refrain from busting chops over on Horse Care. :D
Oh, don't tell me you got sucked into one of those barefoot/shod kerfluffles? Because I have this image of you up on that pedestal being wiser than that... ;)

I agree with snoopy re: new folks.

[riderboy]

All I can say is that the unedited footage was available for purchase after the 2007 Rolex. They caught the entire sequence of the breakdown and subsequent ride. If you can watch that and then defend her God help you.

[deltawave]

My mother always said I never met an argument I couldn't help but join. :D

I like to play Devil's Advocate, you know? Defending soy beans, horseshoes, molasses, draw reins, blankets, bran, and people like Amy Tryon from the lynch mobs. ;)

I know--why don't we lock up AT and LA with a bunch of barefoot vs. shoes people and let them all just have a big pillow fight? Throw in some Parelli devotees to act as referees. :lol:

[Brandy76]

and, of course, LA has updated her site, where she again says she was on the short list::no:

The only good thing is she has no Advanced horses right now, and maybe time and maturity will make her more aware

[2ndyrgal]

I can take a position on anything. I'm not giving L.A. a pass, I'm putting it down to head trauma (perhaps a difficult birth???). Except A.T. Coming down that hill, I can't help but wonder if it just hadn't been the very last fence. Shame it was truly his very last fence.