Horse switching leads on hind end?

[eSpresso]

Hello-
I've had my horse for about 4 months now, and I've never had a problem with him under saddle, for the most part, he would get better and better with each ride. Lately he's becoming a tank when I ride and very frisky (probably due to the weather) He wants to canter and canter and never stop. That's not my problem though...

When we're cantering, no matter what lead he's on, he'll switch his hind end repeatedly, although mostly stays in a cross canter, and I either try to fix it in the canter, or bring him back to the trot, and ask for a canter again.

I thought, maybe because it's dark out, and hes really excited, and just can't help it. (He was trying to buck and jump around the whole time I rode him, and his mind was off in la la land, it was like riding a worm.)

So, when I rode him the next day, things went MUCH better, I mostly trotted, because I cantered him a lot the previous day. At the end of my ride, I let hiim canter a few laps and did some circles... No problem with switching his hind lead.

Today, I only had time to lunge before I went to work, and he was in a nutsy mood again. As soon as I asked for the canter, he galloped, bucked, and did LOTS of weird things with his hind end. He would move with both legs close together, kind of like a bunny hop, switch his hind leads multiple times in a row, and kick under his belly.

I have NOT a clue why he may be doing this, and it's really annoying, because I don't want this to become the normal thing, that I'll have to train out of him.

I did clip him early in the week, so might that be what's bothering him?
He also just finished his treatment for lyme disease...

[flyracing]

Could be that he is attempting to get away from pain. The switching and obnoxious behavoir could be a sign of ulcer or hind gut acidosis. I have a horse that always get ucler in the winter time (clipped) because he doesn't seem comfortable in cold weather, alwasy tense. This seems to be related to him developing ulcers that don't respond to uclergard (which is a bummer). Could be some other source of pain though and its unlikely that its nothing.

[enjoytheride]

When my mare has a tight back and her head in the air she swaps out behind. When she loosens up she stays true. Since your gelding started out fine I'd lean toward a recent back problem. Try getting him checked out by a chiro.

[SimplySensational]

My gelding used to do this when he was getting his balance in the arena and doing smaller circles than out in the big ring during summer. he was just unbalanced and struggling to feel secure while in the canter (he's got a pretty strung out stride naturally and wasn't able to collect much at this point). It may be something as simple as that. i got him checked by the chiropractor at the time, and he said he was pretty much as healthy as can be and didn't have anything wrong with his back and said his muscling and flexibility were great for where he was at in his training.

for him we just worked more on getting his balance and exercises to strengthen his back end and he was fine fairly soon after.

[VicarageVee]

We have had this problem with several OTTBs, but lungeing, not under saddle.
It has always resolved itself over time and is often a result of general weakness over the back. Just hold the correct canter as long as he is willing, and if he breaks come back to the trot and reestablish the correct lead. Do not allow him to swap repeatedly.

[Camstock]

I've had this too with a big OTTB. In an arena he couldn't hold himself in balance. He would swap leads behind, buck by just popping his butt in the air etc. The quickest fix was to get him out in a big area and do some trotting work to get him more fit and stronger over his back. The canter is fixing itself. We are now foxhunting (gently) and having to deal with the varied terrain has helped him immensely.

Just a thought, but when he used to do it alot I didn't correct him when he was cross cantering. It seems to me that horses don't really like to cross canter and they will work it out just as soon as they can. My changing my position or picking up the reins to "help" him is counterproductive. It is an ugly ride for a while, but it has always come around, so I am happy to just wait it out. Best of luck.

[yellowbritches]

Classic symptom of a horse who has some SI issues and may need is SI injected. Bucking is also a very common symptom. I would suggest a good soundness exam. Better to nip this in the bud now before it gets worse.

FWIW, horses usually respond EXTREMELY well to getting their SIs injected and are often like new, and feel incredible. You often don't realize how weak they felt until this is done.

[flea52]

I had the exact problem with my mare over the summer. At first we thought it happened when she came into heat, but then she continued the behavior. She physically could not hold the lead behind and would switch behind, then break to the trot. Also, a lot of bucking and head tossing. I had a chiro look at her, she did some acupuncture once a week for a month and told me to lunge her in side reins and do a lot of lateral work undersaddle to strengthen her stifles. Didn't help. Had the vet out, he looked at her for 2 min on the lunge line and injected her SI - problem solved.

Call your vet first, I should have, my mare is as happy as can be now.

[bip]

Are you certain that the Lyme is resolved? If this is a sudden problem out of nowhere, I would suspect the Lyme. The body clip or the change in temps could be a factor, but I'm assuming your horse has been clipped before and experienced a change in temps w/o having this problem...which makes me think that it is those things plus some residual Lyme issues that are causing the problem.

[eSpresso]

Okay, I just recently purchased this horse, I've been free leasing him since the end of June, and had him vetted a few weeks ago before I bought him. Nothing was noticed.

He hadn't been ridden for almost a year before I got him, he was just sitting in a field.
He was tested for lyme in 2006 I believe, and was positive, but never treated. He was retested when my vet came out to do the pre-purchase exam, and tested positive again. He just finished his treatments, and undersaddle is a different horse. Before he only bucked once or twice when I put on too much leg, because he was 'snarky towards my leg' I suppose. Now, it's become more of a normal thing.

If you want to see videos of his movement during the summer, I have them on my blog, http://itsanewhorse.blogspot.com

He's been going well previous to this week, not having any problems at all. Had a dressage and Jumping lesson and he was fabulous!


Other points mentioned in responses...
-I have a large arena, so he's not working on smaller circles. He has very good balance.
-He is longer in the back, but he seems to be holding up well. He doesn't react sensitive or soreness when being touched or brushed on his back.

I think that's it.
I don't have to work today, so when I get home from school, I'll ride, and give another update.

[Camstock]

Yellowbritches is always full of good insights. Now I wonder if, even though my horse is doing well, I should have his SI looked at. Chiropracted already, but not vet SI exam. Do tell, YB, what do they inject them with and is it a process that needs to be repeated, like hocks? Also, any insight into what causes SI problems?

Edited to add, sorry, if I am a hijacker here. I was thinking that the OP and other people might be interested in these questions too.

[bip]

Classic symptom of a horse who has some SI issues and may need is SI injected. Bucking is also a very common symptom. I would suggest a good soundness exam. Better to nip this in the bud now before it gets worse.

How often does this need to be done? And what determines how often it needs to be redone?

[eSpresso]

Wait... What is an SI.

I originally thought that was the same as getting hocks injected....

[yellowbritches]

SI = Sacroiliac

SI injections AREN'T joint injections. They use similar things that they use in joint injections (depo medrol and Flucort were used on the older pony we had done yesterday...I think this is standard, though the vet used less steroid on the pony as a precaution). My understanding is that it relieves the inflammation of the ligaments that run across that area. A horse's pelvis is very flexible, but horses that do a lot of dressage and jumping put a lot of strain on those areas...that's why they tend to get sore across that area.

The pony we had done yesterday hadn't been done in a couple of years...though, he's been used less in those couple of years and is starting to be used more again. We don't seem to inject the SI area as often as we do, say, hocks. And some horses get it done once then never need it again. I know we had one horse that had it done with some regularity, but he was a mess anyway (his pelvis was very asymmetrical and he had multiple back issues, hind limb issues, and navicular issues).

We had a looooong discussion about this with our vet in recent history. He feels that people often end up dragging their feet on getting this done, and feels that most behavioral issues seen in young horses could be avoided if people would pay attention to the way their young horses felt and got their SI injected when they feel discomfort. I think his feelings are that if you relieve the discomfort, they develop properly and don't NEED it done again.

Signs typically are bucking into or during the canter, swapping behind in the canter or swapping out altogether, missing lead changes, bucking in their changes, kicking out in the depart, rearing, not wanting to go forward, stopping at jumps. The list can go on, but those are some big common ones.

Vets usually palpate the back, and if the SI is sore, they will usually give you a pretty substantial reaction.

[flypony74]

Once you've eliminated any physical issues, you might try riding him slightly haunches-in. He may be losing his hip on the circle, causing him to swap.

[flea52]

Yellowbritches pretty much summed up everything about SI pain. My vet had me read a great article while my mare was going through this. I've cut a pasted some interesting parts. If anyone wants the full article I can post a link, the site is free but you do have to register on it to read full articles.

"Complaints included lack of hindlimb power, deterioration of quality of movement, change in behavior, reluctance to work on the bit, difficulty in lateral movements, changing legs behind in canter, failure to perform correct flying changes, or refusal to jump," she said. "Some horses had also become awkward to shoe the hindlimbs.

"To an untrained observer, many of the horses appeared clinically normal and had been training and competing up until the time of clinical investigation, but with reduced performance. A second group of horses had a sudden onset of bucking behavior when ridden, tending to buck and kick out simultaneously and sometimes repeatedly to one side."

When examined moving in hand on a hard surface, Dyson said, the most common feature among the study horses with perceived sacroiliac problems was reduced hindlimb impulsion. "Some horses," she said, "had a rolling hindlimb gait, some moved exceptionally widely behind, others moved closely and a few plaited. Many horses had more than one gait abnormality…Stiffness and poor hindlimb impulsion were common features on the longe…A few horses tended to break to canter rather than increase hindlimb impulsion, whereas others showed a poor-quality canter…Clinical signs were invariably worse when the horse was ridden and sometimes only apparent under these conditions……In some horses, the deterioration in gait when the horse was ridden was profound and dramatic."

"Some of these horses," Dyson said, "were also extremely reluctant to go forward. In less severely affected horses, kicking behavior only became evident when the horse was asked to collect and work with increased hindlimb engagement."

A part of the study involved injecting the sacroiliac joint of the affected horses with an analgesic and then determining response. The result of that part of the research, Dyson said, surprised many of the researchers because of the dramatic effect.

She had this to say: "Marked improvement in gait was observed in many horses and highlighted the degree of discomfort that the horse had been suffering, despite relatively subtle clinical signs in some horses before injection. Horses generally moved much more freely and willingly and with increased animation. There was improved hindlimb impulsion and a change in balance because of increased engagement of the hindlimbs and subsequent lightening of the forehand. The horses tended to have a more consistent contact with the bit. There was a marked reduction in back stiffness. In several horses that had previously refused to lift either hindlimb from the ground, both hindlimbs could be lifted after infiltration."

There was also a significant change in the behavior of horses that had bucked and kicked out. "Horses that bucked or kicked out," Dyson said, "usually responded dramatically by almost complete cessation of this behavior and marked increase in willingness to move forward (after having the analgesic administered)."

[yellowbritches]

Hey Flea, that looks like a great article! Do you know where I can find it??? We have a client who just DOES NOT GET this SI stuff. Maybe seeing something like that in print would be helpful.

[flea52]

This is the link to the SI article:

http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=5445#

once you get there you can only see the beginning of the article, you have to register with the website (free but a pain!). If you'd rather, you can PM me with your e-mail address and I can forward it to you. The article is super long, but explains things so clearly, it might be really helpful for your client.

[findeight]

Usually a sign of pain from something when they suddenly start doing this.

With mine, it is hocks.

But, PUHLEEZE don't just inject anything without the diagnostics to prove what and why they are needed and a clear idea of what you want them to accomplish. You need a good lamness evaluation to start with...if your vet thinks it not needed despite the sudden skipping and cross cantering, get another opinion.

Wasted time and money over the years chasing things that were not there trying to fix the ones that were there but we did not know it. All in the name of saving money or being too cocksure we were right about what was wrong.

[jumper19]

My horse does the same exact thing. Or rather did, but now it happens alot less often. He's an OTTB as well. Anyway I would be working him and ask for the right canter and as long as I wasn't putting his attention of anything else (leg yields, haunches in on the circle, etc.), his back legs would constantly switch leads every stride. He would stay relaxed and on the bit, it would just turn into a very harsh ride. Turns out that when we went from the field where I usually rode to the arena the countercanter in his haunches wouldn't happen. That's becuase I would tend to get a little sloppy in the field with my postion, but yet in the arena I would stay tall and proper with my back straight. The whole time with my back just the tiniest bit off was sending him mixed signals. Now he still does it even after I stop and reevaluate my center of balance, but I still think it's my fault more than him having issues.

[JulesGules]

Really good advice here - I agree with the consensus that the SI might be the culprit. A thorough lameness exam should give you an idea of where to go on this one.

One point - the sacroiliac IS a joint! It's the joint between the sacrum (the caudal end of the spine) and the pelvis.

It's really important in hindend pushing/collection/jumping power which is why plenty of horses either coming in to work or moving up a level in their work get inflammation there. The old standard way to do the injection only gets the caudal part of the joint (most people refer to it as the criscross method or something like that); it's done blind, and unfortunately the needle path is fairly close to the sciatic nerve. If you've ever seen a horse get hit even slightly in the nerve with a needle, you won't forget it. The best way to inject the area is to ultrasound guide the needle into both the front and back portions of the joint - this way MUST be ultrasound guided or there is a chance the needle ends up in the rectum...very bad. Or you just end up injection the steroids into the muscle, which is fine but pretty useless. Done with the ultrasound, it's a quick, easy procedure with very little risk.

Anyway, hope you get it figured out!

[yellowbritches]

While the sacroiliac IS a joint, the injection is not made into the joint itself. From what I understand (both from the explanations I've gotten from our vet and from reading), the joint itself is nearly impossible to get the medication into, like you would if you injected the hock.

From a related article from the Horse:
No technique resulted in injection within the virtual joint space, but most injections were very close to it (from 1.1 cm away with the caudal approach to 2.4 cm away with the craniomedial approach). In live horses, diffusion of medical substances (such as regional anesthesia or joint therapies such as corticosteroids) into the joint would occur. The caudal approach resulted in injection closer to the sacroiliac joint itself, making it the best choice for joint medication. However, he noted that this approach does carry a risk of puncturing the gut if the needle is inserted too deeply.

The whole article is at http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=11676&nID=9&src=RA (like Flea said, you have to sign up or sign in to read the whole thing. The Horse is a great resource, so worth the registering!).

The one thing worth repeating is get a GOOD lameness exam. OP, do you have a vet in your area that specializes in lameness/sports medicine??? Often I find that the vets who do mainly medical stuff (colics, shots, runny noses, etc), don't have the same skill at finding and diagnosing properly lameness issues. By using a vet who ONLY does this stuff, you great increase your chances of getting to the root of the issue, quickly.

[VicarageVee]

Wait... What is an SI.

I originally thought that was the same as getting hocks injected....

Almost all of our UL horses have their SI's injected. Usually, the injections hold for between 12-18 months in heavy work.

[VicarageVee]

But, PUHLEEZE don't just inject anything without the diagnostics to prove what and why they are needed and a clear idea of what you want them to accomplish. You need a good lamness evaluation to start with.

Yes. Also, do consider (especially if your horse is long-backed or has big movement behind) that he might not yet be strong enough across his back to hold the correct lead in a frame. You might need to inject the SI, but we rarely inject SIs in horses who aren't running at the FEI levels... Unless, that is, your horse has general soundness and comfort issues.

[yventer]

Almost all of our UL horses have their SI's injected. Usually, the injections hold for between 12-18 months in heavy work.

Really? Why almost all?? I've had high-performance horses with some S-I issues, but I was never under the impression that injections were as much the "norm" for that problem (unless the problem was severe), as they are now for hocks and stifles.

Please educate me,

Yvonne

[eSpresso]

Hey- So I thiught I would give a little update.

I rode him today, and he was wonderful, cantering on the correct leads, not switching, only a buck or two, and not being a tank. I will watch out for him the next couple of weeks, and if it does not stay consistent and good like he has, then I will make an appointment with the vet to get a lameness exam.

Thanks guys!

[serendipityhunter]

OP, I'm not sure where you are located but if you are near MD or VA and continue to have problems, Dr. Kent Allen would be your best bet figuring this out.

[eSpresso]

I am in Western Massachusetts.

[Twomanydawgs]

My mare started swapping out behind..had the vet out...he injected the hocks..presto clean lead changes and no swapping out! Cost =$280 both hocks.