What entitles a junior to be paid for rides?

[Haalter]

I seem to remember a thread like this a while back, but couldn't find it. I guess I just wanted to vent a little about this, so here goes...

Back when I was a junior, I was *thrilled* if I was asked to hack, let alone jump or show, someone else's nice horse. This didn't happen regularly until I was winning at 3'6", and I never actually got paid to ride someone else's horse until I was winning at 4'6".

Anyhow...I have a few nice horses, one which has won in the A/A hunters and another which has been successful through the level 3 jumpers, neither one a world beater, but both quite nice, both pleasant to ride. What shocks me is that instead of being thrilled to have the opportunity to ride these horses, instead I have juniors who want to be paid to ride them. What is this sense of entitlement about? I'm not talking about juniors who are catchriding at indoors, just local juniors who have had some local success at the local 3' level. And these aren't project horses, they are proven show horses that I'd have been thrilled to ride when I was a junior at a BN barn. What gives?

[heartinrye]

I'll ride them for free and do it with a smile :)

But seriously I have no idea why juniors feel so entitiled, I had to leave town for a few days this summer, asked a jr rider, similar to your situation, a decent local rider with sucess in the 3', to ride my horses for me (one a well known jumper, but a lovebug at home and a fairly easy 3'6 horse) and they wanted to be paid- so sorry! Found a just aged out adult who did it happily and with a HUGE smile, which made me feel even better!

[ef80]

Absolutely nothing entitles them, there are a million kids out there who will gladly jump at the chance to ride and show FOR FREE. Maybe it makes me sound old, but this entitlement nonsense seems to be a generational thing or a desire to be able to say "Look at me, I'm elite - I got PAID to ride this horse."

I'm of the mind that if Adults get classified as Pros for getting a discount on board or lessons for working their trainer's sale horse or teaching a couple of walk-trot lessons then the same rules should be applied to Juniors - no paying them to ride, no large "tokens of appreciation", no discounts, etc.

If you are seeking out a specific Junior to show the horse and they aren't terribly interested- I can certainly see where people would sweeten the deal with cash or whateverl, but that's not something you do for an average dime-a-dozen Junior. That's a kid who's a well known name in your area - east coast/west coast/PNW etc.

[Spud&Saf]

I think juniors today generally (not all of them) just don't understand the cost associated with making one of these horses and what a great opportunity it is to ride one of them. A lot of the more talented juniors will have had access to these types of mounts for most of their career, so they do not necessarily appreciate the value of being able to ride one - just a dime a dozen to them.

I have a similar situation to the one you are offering. I am an adult amateur in my mid 20s. I work full time, I have a mortgage and I am single. I could not dream to afford to own or show one of these types of lovely animals on my own, but I do enjoy the privilege of getting to ride a couple owned by a lady generous enough to share hers with me and assist me in getting out there and reaching my showing goals. Yes, it is a win win situation in a sense, as she gets her horses worked and shown, and I get to ride them. However, I do not ever for a second think that she is the one getting the deal! It is most certainly me who is getting a wonderful opportunity and I am thankful for it. I do not have an impressive show record and I do not fancy myself as being overly talented in the tack. This wonderful owner has certainly taken a chance on me. I am making sure I work and train as hard as I can so I do not disappoint her or let the horses down.

Maybe you could find some diamond in the rough type younger adult ammys like me who are have stepped into the real world and have grown up enough to truly appreciate what you have generously offered?

[HunterJumper106]

An opinion from a junior--I love riding other horses! I do it whenever I'm asked as long as I have the time and I definitely don't ask to be paid for it. I have had much local success at the 3ft and show on the A circuit in the eq/hunters and some jumpers but I don't campaign the circuit.

The only thing I ask is that the owner provides what I need to ride the horse (bridle, special saddle pads, boots, fly spray, shampoos etc). And if I am showing the horse/pony for someone they should pay for entries/stall/additional training etc. but I do not expect to be paid for it.

It is nice to keep the good ribbons/prizes sometimes and occasionally if I show a horse a lot or ride a horse a lot for someone they will give me a gift card or a small present or buy my dinner at a show or something but I certainly don't expect it and don't get it all the time...

[jubilee.eventing]

A am always glad to ride a nice horse, or to exercise a horse for a friend for free... but I have had entries paid on catch rides at shows (greenies or the occasional pony who has dumped it's rider). I have also been paid to work with children's mounts who are not suitable for their rider. I find nothing wrong with it, I have to help support my riding in some way.

[RugBug]

Maybe it makes me sound old, but this entitlement nonsense seems to be a generational thing or a desire to be able to say "Look at me, I'm elite - I got PAID to ride this horse."


I think it's a product of the self-esteem movement. Many young people these days have so much self-esteem they think they are god's gift.

A recent (although perhaps a bit flawed) study showed that compared to teens in the mid 70s, teens today have higher self-esteem, believe they will be highly successful, feel they will be good parents, and feel like they are smarter/do better in school than their grades actually prove.

We've made these kids believe that they deserve to be paid.

[TheHunterKid90]

A word from a junior rider....

That is rediculous. I consider myself to be a "local junior winning at the local rated shows" (we're not talking Capital Challenge/Washington deal) and I would be positively thrilled to have a owner ask me to show their horse! I have had this happen many times and always agree and do it with a smile. If the horse is a greenbean then it's definately a compliment on my ability....if it's a more made horse then it's a compliment on my tactfulness and ability to bring out the finer points in a horse.
I have shown in both situations and always have fun and thank the owner/trainer for the oppurtunity to ride/show their horse.
My rule of thumb is...if I ask an owner if I can show their horse (mine comes up lame...it's a qualifying Eq class etc) then *I* pay for entry fees...if they approach me and ask me to show their horse (Hunters, Jumpers, Eventing) then They pay the entry fees.

Sounds to me like you've got a big ego on your hands with the junior you are dealing with! Don't let her take advantage of you!

[Dixon]

There are hungrier juniors out there that would love to ride your horses for free, but they may not be at your barn. The problem with many show barns is the juniors are all so rich and have all the mounts they need, so they aren't hungry to add quality or variety to their rides. Plus their folks tell them they walk on water, indulge the kid's every whim, and emphasize that everything the kid does should somehow enhance their resume for college application purposes. Kids then think nothing is worthwhile unless they can call it a paid position. Heck with them. You might consider asking around to trainers at nearby barns where the kids have to muck stalls or otherwise earn their way, and will be grateful to ride your horses.

[Haalter]

The problem with many show barns is the juniors are all so rich and have all the mounts they need, so they aren't hungry to add quality or variety to their rides. Dixon, your post makes sense, but the ironic thing is, I'm not at a big show barn, and my horses are considerably nicer than the ones the kids own. And really, I gladly rode a lot of horses when I was a kid that weren't as nice as mine - it helped me learn to develop the skills I would need for riding a variety of horses as a professional. At least, that's what I told myself every time I hit the dirt ;)

I'm still waiting for someone to post on this thread and tell me why I'm wrong, but from the responses so far, that's probably not going to happen here...maybe I should be posting this on one of those teen forums (or at least waiting til the after school day is over to read the replies) :lol:

[TheHunterKid90]

I'm still waiting for someone to post on this thread and tell me why I'm wrong, but from the responses so far, that's probably not going to happen here...maybe I should be posting this on one of those teen forums (or at least waiting til the after school day is over to read the replies) :lol:


That made me laugh out loud! :lol::lol::lol:

[Shirland Farm]

As a junior I happily rode (and sometimes showed) every barely broke race track reject my trainer brought into the barn. Of course they weren't as nice as my show horses (some turned out to be!) but they definitely taught me a ton and made me a much much better rider. They also made me appreciate my own horses more ;)

I'm still surprised that these kids think they should be paid. I wonder who put that in their head? Probably the other teens at the barn... teens will be teens I guess. Then again, times are getting tough, and a lot of people are looking to make an extra buck.....

[grandprixjump]

And if the changes happen, some of these juniors won't be in such a hurry to get paid to ride. Part of the change was IF they get paid to TRAIN, RIDE, Teach, Etc. EVEN as a junior, they would have to request a status change with USEF to be an Adult Ammy. Meaning NO teaching, training, riding for pay, for 1 year to qualify.. That was my understanding of the proposed changes anyway..

[Windswept Stable]

As the mother of daughters who have recently out-aged & were asked a good bit to catch ride at shows, we had a rule-- if my daughter benefited from the ride -- i.e -nice 3'6" horse - I paid the bill. Heck-- I have even paid the bill on a winning 3' horse. But if the owner or the pony or horse benefited--then the owner paid the bills. Money was never expected or requested for the services. For a job well done-- More often than not, the owners we thankful provided a monetary gift or tack shop gift certificate or something like that. But from time to them there were those that thought I should pay the bill to have my 17 yr old rider give their green pony a schooling ride. Gee--no thanks. Winner or not...we didnt really need to win at that level at that point.

Sounds like you are being more than fair. If you need the kids to ride, tell them you will pay for their gas to the show and give them food money for the day.
That should be more than plenty to satisfy them. If its not-- find another kid.

[VarsityHero4]

You're totally wrong! I'm a "just aged out" junior and even as somebody who wants to become a professional and train and sell, I'm still happy to get anything I can swing my leg over. Whether it wants to pack me around or get me off ASAP, I'll ride it. I hate when I hear so many people generalizing so many juniors as not ambitious or appreciative. The thing is that there are A LOT of juniors these days who have parents with enough money to buy them whatever they want and there is such a high concentration of horses out there that they can often find something dead-broke for the amount of money they have. In "the old days" was nobody spoiled? (I recall a movie called "Danny" from the 80's) Perhaps there is just a larger concentration of showing riders these days and so there are more spoiled ones. You definitely can't say that juniors are the only ones that want it all handed to them at the ring.

You have to stop by the more local type barns, where maybe they don't even know what a Dutch Warmblood is. I've always worked incredibly hard to pay for my horses because my parents were the type that didn't want to throw a bunch of money into something I might quit tomorrow (HOW WRONG WERE THEY?! lol) I've never been a big winner and I've never been asked to show somebody's horse for them, but I've always hacked or schooled horses for whatever trainer I was with regardless of pay. Sometimes they would throw some money my way but never more than $5 for a ride. IMO it's made me a very adjustable rider because I've ridden everything from the 3 yr old just getting started to the retired GP horse, now I finally made enough money off of buying really cheap horses and selling them for more than I bought them that I have a nice horse that's going well and let me tell you, there's nothing in this world like that feeling of accomplishment.

Just remember, the world is a big place, don't be so quick to jump on an entire generation before you look harder. The fact is, there are just more people than there were before.

[Jumphigh83]

I know MANY people that would pay the entries for some competent jr to ride their horses (at shows) BUT good luck finding one that will come and do the homework...all games, no practices. It isn't like it was when I was young. I prayed that Fluffy would buck off/stop/scare Suzy Hasahorse so I could get to ride Fluffy..there were at least a half dozen of us sitting around, mucking, tacking, brushing, hot walking in the hopes that something would "happen" and we would get a ride....those days are GONE...all the entitled princesses (and princes) want to get paid to ride...so those that would "back" a junior are mostly either selling their horses or leaving them in the backyard as lawn ornaments. Everybody loses. Self esteem is highly overrated. How about learning humility, patience and tenacity? Then again, look at the US today. Everyone wants their Uncle Sam to provide for them. Why go out and hustle when you can sit home and collect a check? No wonder the immigrant workers are taking over the horse industry..they actually WORK...

[Sing Mia Song]

The only junior who should be paid to ride is one who is very, very talented, and is both improving the horse and accomplishing a goal for you (whether that's getting it to Indoors or a year-end award, or putting enough miles on it to get it sold). In my mind, there have been very few who were true "pro juniors." Nicki Shahinian was one, because she could have ridden a giraffe and made it the hack winner.

I agree that you will find people with superegos everywhere and it's not limited to a particular generation. I think you just need to find the right kid or adult.

[gg4918]

Side note: I'm an amateur but i'll ride them for free! I have the same record as majority of those kids (indoors, finals, etc.) Just graduated junior ranks for the 2009 show season
PLLLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSSEEEEEEEEE!!!
:D :D :D

[achcosuva]

As a junior (under 18, still in highschool, mom footed the majority of my bills) I would've (and did!) ride anything for free. Bucking, bolting, refusing jumps, really pretty much anything but a dangerous rearer as I've never been a big fan of backflips, especially horse-back-flips. A nice horse would've been a huge bonus! However, as a rather poor college student, I only rode horses that people paid me to ride. I didn't have the time or the money to ride for free. I worked several jobs and went to school full time. If I were riding a horse, it was an hour that I was taking away from either "study" time or "earning money" time. Therefore, the hours of time I wasted neither making money nor studying (which were few and far between), I spent riding my own horse. I rode several very sweet horses which people paid me to exercise, but they were not exactly the highly trained horses you describe (which no one in their right mind would pay a mere peon of a college student to ride!)

Is the junior in question paying for her own riding expenses without her parents? If so, I imagine she may not be willing to take an hour of potential making-money-time off several days a week (it does add up!), even if it's to ride a super nice horse. On the other hand, it's probably more likely that she is just full of herself, has been paid to ride problem horses, and doesn't understand it's a privilege to ride something as nice as you describe.

[ExJumper]

A junior catchriding at indoors deserves to be paid. A junior with local 3' success does not deserve to be paid. If I want to sell my horse as a junior horse, I want to see what it does against other junior horses, not against the 1st year horses. So I put a junior on it. If it is a very good junior, I would expect to pay for it.

The problem you have isn't "why do juniors deserve to get paid to ride," it is "why do these idiots who I talked to THINK they deserve to get paid." The answer to that is that they are idiots who think they are more important than they really are.

But don't paint all juniors with the same brush. Some very good juniors need to get paid to finance their riding. Some very good juniors are so good that they simply couldn't ride everything that people offer them. If someone offered a Rox Dene clone to a very good junior but couldn't pay, the junior (if she was smart) would do it for free. But for you average everyday horse? The very good junior should get paid if that is what she wants.

Some juniors think that they are little trainers. These are the dumb ones who win the 3' championship at the local show and then want to get paid to get your horse some experience in the pre-childrens. This is the fault of the kids, not a fault of the system.

So don't crap on the whole system because you have come across a group of spoiled kinds that don't ride that well and think they deserve to get paid.

I seem to remember a thread like this a while back, but couldn't find it. I guess I just wanted to vent a little about this, so here goes...

Back when I was a junior, I was *thrilled* if I was asked to hack, let alone jump or show, someone else's nice horse. This didn't happen regularly until I was winning at 3'6", and I never actually got paid to ride someone else's horse until I was winning at 4'6".

Anyhow...I have a few nice horses, one which has won in the A/A hunters and another which has been successful through the level 3 jumpers, neither one a world beater, but both quite nice, both pleasant to ride. What shocks me is that instead of being thrilled to have the opportunity to ride these horses, instead I have juniors who want to be paid to ride them. What is this sense of entitlement about? I'm not talking about juniors who are catchriding at indoors, just local juniors who have had some local success at the local 3' level. And these aren't project horses, they are proven show horses that I'd have been thrilled to ride when I was a junior at a BN barn. What gives?

[Jleegriffith]

As the mother of daughters who have recently out-aged & were asked a good bit to catch ride at shows, we had a rule-- if my daughter benefited from the ride -- i.e -nice 3'6" horse - I paid the bill. Heck-- I have even paid the bill on a winning 3' horse. But if the owner or the pony or horse benefited--then the owner paid the bills. Money was never expected or requested for the services. For a job well done-- More often than not, the owners we thankful provided a monetary gift or tack shop gift certificate or something like that. But from time to them there were those that thought I should pay the bill to have my 17 yr old rider give their green pony a schooling ride. Gee--no thanks. Winner or not...we didnt really need to win at that level at that point.


I was often paid to ride when I was Junior based on similar criteria. I grew up riding tough ponies and ottb's so many people in the local area paid me to ride their tough horses or help start the greenies. I also rode several experienced horses yet my parents nor I ever requested payment for those types of rides. I would have rode for free but my parents looked at it like these people would have been paying someone to school their horse and it might as well help fund my horses. I would have ridden anything and everything and for the most part I did.

I would love..really love to have somebody/anybody come and ride with me. I have a lovely group of horses all with show mileage and sane brains but finding somebody who wants to put the time in is really hard to do. I was just recently thinking about sending some emails to local colleges and barns to see if I could find a rider or two who just wanted to exercise some horses.

[Trixie]

I hate when I hear so many people generalizing so many juniors as not ambitious or appreciative.

I'm not sure anyone said that juniors are not ambitious, and obviously, the juniors in question are not appreciative.

The way I see it, is if they're adding value to your horse by giving it a NAME in the show ring: you pay the bills and most likely the kid.

Now, the amount of kids that are capable of giving a horse a name in the show ring... well, there are VERY few and they are far between. They need to be able to ride like a pro and not screw up: and let's face it, most riders with some local 3' success aren't going to ride like professionals. They are not the second coming of Margie Engle. They are 3' riders.

The good news about that is that there are probably a thousand other juniors who ride just as nicely and would be thrilled for the opportunity. Don't waste your time with the ones that are ungrateful.


The problem you have isn't "why do juniors deserve to get paid to ride," it is "why do these idiots who I talked to THINK they deserve to get paid." The answer to that is that they are idiots who think they are more important than they really are.

:yes:

[MissintheSouth]

Craziness. The juniors who are entitled to get paid to ride are the mini pros who put in winning trip after winning trip on catch ridden horses at BIG shows. There are few juniors who can actually ride any horse well in good company consistently, and those do deserve to get paid.

But your average local show kid who has a miss here and there? No way.

That being said, there is a big difference between "getting paid" and paying the bills for someone. As a junior, I would never have expected to be paid, but if I was riding for someone else (to help the horse, give it show exposure in the non-pro ring, etc) then the owner was expected to pay the show bills. If I was using the horse for the weekend for me (like for an eq class or a partial lease situation) then I was expected to pay.

[Janet]

I think there is a difference beween "riding" and "showing".

It is also a question of supply and demand, and whether it is "one off" or a continuing role.

When I was a junior (and that was MANY decades ago, so nothing to do with THIS generation of juinors) I had a summer job exercising 2 horses for a woman who was pregnant. I got paid for my time, and probably would not have done it without being paid, even though they were very nice horses.

But I also rode a young (barely backed) Connemara for a neighbor/breeder, and didn' expect to be paid for that.

Similarly, when my own horse was lame or otherwise unavailable, I showed horses leant to me by other people- I didn't get paid for that either.

[Haalter]

Wow, lots of responses!

FWIW, I should do some clarifying:

First off, I am not expecting a "junior professional" who just got back from showing multiple rides at indoors to pay the show bills for my local quality horses. I'm talking about local juniors getting to hack them, have lessons on them (lessons they don't have to pay for, but they're not getting paid for taking them either) and the horses' show expenses are paid by me, at shows where these kids are already showing their own horses. Sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me, and apparently to most of the folks replying to this thread as well.


To anyone who was offended, or perhaps thought that I was generalizing about all junior riders everywhere, I am only speaking the truth about my own experience. If it were only one kid, I'd assume it was an anomaly, but it's been a few. And yes, perhaps I should have phrased my initial post differently. Clearly there are some juniors who are deserving of pay. But these are not the kids I'm talking about, and I tried to make that clear in my first post.

[Bent Hickory]

What shocks me is that instead of being thrilled to have the opportunity to ride these horses, instead I have juniors who want to be paid to ride them. What is this sense of entitlement about? I'm not talking about juniors who are catchriding at indoors, just local juniors who have had some local success at the local 3' level. And these aren't project horses, they are proven show horses that I'd have been thrilled to ride when I was a junior at a BN barn. What gives?

OK - I'll bite. What exactly are you asking them to do? Catch ride at a show? Or ride your horses 3-4 times per week to keep them fit/going? Because one looks like fun and the other looks like "work."

When a trainer gets on one of my horses, I expect to pay them for their time. When one of Windswept's daughters get on one of my ponies for a schooling or at a show, I expect to pay them for their time.

There's a difference between doing someone a favor and wanting something for nothing...

[Haalter]

OK - I'll bite. What exactly are you asking them to do? Catch ride at a show? Or ride your horses 3-4 times per week to keep them fit/going? Because one looks like fun and the other looks like "work."

At the level these kids are riding, they'd need to put in some schooling rides on these horses in order to be ready to show. IMO, it's part of the deal: you want a nice horse to show for free? You need to help get it ready and learn to ride it well enough that the shows are a successful endeavor. And to me, as a teen, riding as many extra horses as I could get my hands on, even just hacking at home was fun, not work!

[ponyjumper4]

Then it sounds to me you are trying to get some excerise rides on your horse. To me, that's work, and you should expect to pay for it--whether it be a junior or an adult. Good for you if you find someone that will do it for free. It all depends on the situation. there are some situations where I would do rides for free like if I was horseless or wanted to get extra rides on something, etc. However, if someone approached me to school their horses a few times a week, I would expect to be paid for my time or at least expect it to come up in the conversation where I can then choose depending on that situation and what it offers me if I want to accept money or not.

[HFMini]

I'm a junior whose shown 2'6" for multiple years on the local circuit, and a complete greenie I brought along for a two years in an A.

I would jump on that deal in an instant. Schooling rides would make it even a better deal for me.

I don't know whats wrong with the kids you're asking?? haha

[Giddy-up]

Then it sounds to me you are trying to get some excerise rides on your horse. To me, that's work, and you should expect to pay for it--whether it be a junior or an adult.

Perhaps it's just me, but I haven't met any juniors lately that I would pay to hack my horse. Most likely after them hacking my horse a few times, I would need to pay for a pro ride to "fix" him. I don't see why a junior should expect to get paid to hop on the horse & hack it for 20-30 minutes. And by "hack" I mean just that--they are w/t/c-ing around. Not training it. Not improving the flat work. Just keeping him fit. I suppose if they were a very talented rider & were actually training/improving the horse they could ask for payment, but the local level junior riders I see--nope.

OP--I think you are offering a very sweet deal (lessons & shows paid for in exchange for riding the horse a few times a week). Hopefully you'll find a rider (junior or adult) that is excited by that offer & takes it.

[heartinrye]

Then it sounds to me you are trying to get some excerise rides on your horse. To me, that's work, and you should expect to pay for it--whether it be a junior or an adult. Good for you if you find someone that will do it for free. It all depends on the situation. there are some situations where I would do rides for free like if I was horseless or wanted to get extra rides on something, etc. However, if someone approached me to school their horses a few times a week, I would expect to be paid for my time or at least expect it to come up in the conversation where I can then choose depending on that situation and what it offers me if I want to accept money or not.

Honestly, you want to find a kid who WANTS to ride your horse, as a jr aging out in 10 days, I would have killed for extra horses to ride. When I moved to a bigger barn this summer I would tune-up the old, saintly, lesson horses just becuase that meant more time in the saddle. Did the thought of getting paid ever cross my mind? No

A few months ago a family went out of town for 2 weeks and mom asked me to ride kids horse, she offered me $, but I had enjoyed riding the horse and refused. She ended up paying for my next two lessons without my knowing.

Maybe instead of 'paying' the kid, say Hey do you want to qualify for ____ Medal? You can show my horse in the qualifying classes, and if you end up qualifying you can take my horse to finals. Good exposure for your horse and an incentive for the kid to want to ride/do well on your horse.

[Haalter]

Then it sounds to me you are trying to get some excerise rides on your horse. To me, that's work, and you should expect to pay for it--whether it be a junior or an adult. Please read my post again for comprehension, and understand that these kids do not ride well enough to hop on my nice horses at a show and jump competently around a 3'6" course. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that they learn to get around a 3'6" course at home on these horses before I pay their way at a show. If I wanted to pay for my horses to be "exercised", schooled, or catch-ridden, I'd pay a professional, not a children's hunter rider.

[TheHunterKid90]

Wow, lots of responses!

FWIW, I should do some clarifying:

First off, I am not expecting a "junior professional" who just got back from showing multiple rides at indoors to pay the show bills for my local quality horses. I'm talking about local juniors getting to hack them, have lessons on them (lessons they don't have to pay for, but they're not getting paid for taking them either) and the horses' show expenses are paid by me, at shows where these kids are already showing their own horses. Sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me, and apparently to most of the folks replying to this thread as well.


To anyone who was offended, or perhaps thought that I was generalizing about all junior riders everywhere, I am only speaking the truth about my own experience. If it were only one kid, I'd assume it was an anomaly, but it's been a few. And yes, perhaps I should have phrased my initial post differently. Clearly there are some juniors who are deserving of pay. But these are not the kids I'm talking about, and I tried to make that clear in my first post.


Uhmm, I'll come ride/show your horses for you! You offer a REALLY good deal and if I had that oppurtunity with you I'd jump on it in a heartbeat. Sheesh!

[RugBug]

Perhaps it's just me, but I haven't met any juniors lately that I would pay to hack my horse. Most likely after them hacking my horse a few times, I would need to pay for a pro ride to "fix" him. I don't see why a junior should expect to get paid to hop on the horse & hack it for 20-30 minutes. And by "hack" I mean just that--they are w/t/c-ing around. Not training it. Not improving the flat work. Just keeping him fit.

OP--I think you are offering a very sweet deal (lessons & shows paid for in exchange for riding the horse a few times a week). Hopefully you'll find a rider (junior or adult) that is excited by that offer & takes it.

Agree with the whole of your post. I would've jumped at the chance to be in such a situation as a junior (or even now).

I wouldn't pay a junior to hack my horse. I've paid kids to HANDWALK my horse, because heck...that IS work and is terribly boring. But the junior that was riding my horse during the undersaddle portion of re-hab? I didn't pay her. Riding my horse is fun...even if it's just at the trot. He's the nicest horse she's ever sat on...(because I paid a pro to ride him multiple times a week) and she doesn't have anything else to ride. If it ever gets to the point that she might want to show him, she will pay all show costs.

[Bent Hickory]

You want a nice horse to show for free? You need to help get it ready and learn to ride it well enough that the shows are a successful endeavor.

So you're offering your horses to these riders purely out of the kindness of your heart, then right? No benefit to you at all? Solely out of the interest of developing a young rider...?

I call shenanigans. Sounds like you have a horse(s) that needs to get ridden and shown and you EXPECT someone to jump at the chance to do that for free.

I can imagine one of the riders posting this from the exact opposite perspective. "Some woman has a couple of "nothing special" horses at my barn. These horses seldom, if ever, get ridden and basically stay in their stall 24/7. She's trying to sell them but no bites as they are not in consistent work. She approached me about riding and showing them for her in order to get them sold. The catch is, she expects me to do this for free and is upset because I won't. Can you believe it?"

How bad do you need these horses ridden vs. how bad does one of these riders need a "local mount?" That will determine whether or not you have to pay.

[bascher]

As a junior, an even now as a college AA, I'm always more than happy to jump on someone else's horse for absolutely NOTHING. I feel that it teaches me so much when I ride other horses, besides the fact that it is simply fun. Even if I get asked to get on a horse because it's coming back from an injury or because it just needs exercise, I would gladly do it without feeling entitled to anything. As I said before, I really feel that I gain experience, knowledge, and overall better riding skills from riding other horses, no matter what the situation, so that is all the "payment" that I feel anyway should feel "entitled" to.

[RugBug]

So you're offering your horses to these riders purely out of the kindness of your heart, then right? No benefit to you at all? Solely out of the interest of developing a young rider...?

I call shenanigans. Sounds like you have a horse(s) that needs to get ridden and shown and you EXPECT someone to jump at the chance to do that for free.

I can imagine one of the riders posting this from the exact opposite perspective. "Some woman has a couple of "nothing special" horses at my barn. These horses seldom, if ever, get ridden and basically stay in their stall 24/7. She's trying to sell them but no bites as they are not in consistent work. She approached me about riding and showing them for her in order to get them sold. The catch is, she expects me to do this for free and is upset because I won't. Can you believe it?"


My response to that scenario would be: "Someone wants you to ride their horse, will pay for lessons and showing? Why the hell haven't you jumped at the opportunity? "

But you are right, if these kids are already up to their eyeballs in saddle time, they won't be looking at it like someone who is looking to add more saddle time. 'Course they may also be kids who aren't 'horse crazy' and only enjoy riding as something else that they do.

I would also venture that these same kids are the type to turn down free rides because a horse is 'just a lesson horse'. They think they can't learn anything because 'beginners' ride that horse. Etc. I call them snots. I may have horses that I'm not particularly fond of riding, but I rarely turn down an extra ride unless I think the horse is dangerous....and I usually get plenty of saddle time and have to rearrange my schedule to fit more in. But it's worth it to me. Everytime I'm in the saddle, on ANY horse, I learn. But, I'm one of those obssessed horse-crazy types.

[ponyjumper4]

Please read my post again for comprehension, and understand that these kids do not ride well enough to hop on my nice horses at a show and jump competently around a 3'6" course. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that they learn to get around a 3'6" course at home on these horses before I pay their way at a show. If I wanted to pay for my horses to be "exercised", schooled, or catch-ridden, I'd pay a professional, not a children's hunter rider.

If your first post was as clear as to what you were offering as the one several posts later that I had to go back and find, it would make it easier to comprehend what it is you are asking. Your first post sounded as if you wanted somebody to hack your horse. You should expect to pay for it unless your insurance covers those that are hacking your horses for you. It's not like it used to be years ago, even when I was the junior getting on the evil ponies for free, and sometimes paid, only 10 or so years ago.

Now, having found your more detailed post, that's a pretty sweet deal.

[Trixie]

I call shenanigans. Sounds like you have a horse(s) that needs to get ridden and shown and you EXPECT someone to jump at the chance to do that for free.

I can imagine one of the riders posting this from the exact opposite perspective. "Some woman has a couple of "nothing special" horses at my barn. These horses seldom, if ever, get ridden and basically stay in their stall 24/7. She's trying to sell them but no bites as they are not in consistent work. She approached me about riding and showing them for her in order to get them sold. The catch is, she expects me to do this for free and is upset because I won't. Can you believe it?"

You call "shenanigans" because someone is offering a horse to ride on their dime?

I see nothing about the horses being marketed for sale. Most folks, when attempting to market and sell a horse, find themselves someone who can actually do a decent job of MARKETING THE HORSE - not some kid with minor success at the local 3' level that isn't ready to go around a 3'6" course.

You see, I was raised on the idea that riding is a priviledge, not a right. If a non-professional LOWER LEVEL rider (ie, a rider who is not presently in business) without many other options doesn't wish to ride on the terms provided by the owner, they may graciously decline, but personally, I've always considered any offer to ride to be an honor, even if the horse is not the fanciest thing I've ever sat on.

As someone who has exclusively ridden for other people, I would fully expect to be out of a job if I *EVER* treated someone else's animals as if they were "nothing special" horses. That's disgraceful.

[BelladonnaLily]

In my case, I have only needed a rider on greenies...heck, if I owned a packer my own kids would be riding them! So in my case, when I ask a kid to ride, I pay for the entries. I try to do something else nice for these kids along the way. I might have a really good junior come put some rides on a pony and show him a little this winter and in this case since she'd be going out of her way to come over and ride him, I will be paying her...as long as it won't be breaking any rules for her. Her mother could potentially be riding him so as well, and as a professional, I'd be paying her anyway.

[Biscotti]

Um, if it is some sketch junior with a local record, then hell no, I would not give them anything, and they would pay entry fees to any classes they showed in. If they were just out hacking my horse, getting it into shape, I'd let them ride for free, since they'd be doing ME and MY HORSE a service, and that, in essence, is their payment.

If it was a junior getting miles on my horse for the sake of the horse having junior miles, no payment. If it is a BNJR then hell yes, I am going to shell out a lot to have my horse ridden by them. But until these kids are out winning, placing top 10 at the REAL indoors and in PB, they aren't going to get any money, and are going to have to pay if they want to show.

[Haalter]

So you're offering your horses to these riders purely out of the kindness of your heart, then right? No benefit to you at all? Solely out of the interest of developing a young rider...?

I call shenanigans. Sounds like you have a horse(s) that needs to get ridden and shown and you EXPECT someone to jump at the chance to do that for free.

Actually, I'd like to develop these young riders out of kindness as well as a sense of business: their parents are paying me to board these kids' own horses, take lessons and show with me. Franklly, the kids' families do not have the budget to buy horses as nice as the ones I'm offering. I've had similar deals with other kids and other horses in the past; those kids have since aged out and moved on to college, etc and I thought I'd offer some younger, less experienced kids the same opportunity. Incidentally, I did not pay these other juniors to ride, and they appreciated the experience. And ironically, while I didn't pay these juniors, the mileage and the visibility they got showing mine led one to get some paid riding gigs at other farms, and she is now a full-time professional.



I can imagine one of the riders posting this from the exact opposite perspective. "Some woman has a couple of "nothing special" horses at my barn. These horses seldom, if ever, get ridden and basically stay in their stall 24/7. She's trying to sell them but no bites as they are not in consistent work. She approached me about riding and showing them for her in order to get them sold. The catch is, she expects me to do this for free and is upset because I won't. Can you believe it?"
Actually, both horses are fit, ready to show, and while they may not be "special" at the top level, both are very nice horses who have won at 3' and 3'6" at rated shows this year. And I'm not "some woman" at their barn - I'm the trainer they have chosen to ride with. I think the scenario you are describing is quite different than what I'm talking about.


Oh, and neither horse is for sale. One may be someday, but the other will be mine for life.

[Tilly]

Another junior checking in here. I would love to have extra horses to ride! I used to ride quite a few different horses for my old trainer, [I rode her green 4 yr old and her older Prix St. Georges mare, and horses inbetween], along with friends' horses, but now that we've moved I can't find any extras. And when I rode other people's horses I didn't just 'hack'. I worked on things, mostly flat work, although I did jump one friend's horse every once in awhile. I don't even really hack on my own horse, when I ride, we work on something, even if it's just walk/halt/walk.:yes:
I know how hard it is to create a made horse, my pony was completely green broke when I bought her, I've had to do all her training, and I appreciate how lucky I've been in having my own horse, one that I had to train myself.

The only reason I think a junior should be paid to ride a horse is if he/she was training the horse, or being paid to exercise the horse while the owner is on vacation.

I would kill to be back at my old barn. Heck, I would kill to get one extra ride a week on another horse. I ride best when I'm riding different horses. I think that's probably true for everyone.

[blackwatch86]

I'll just throw my 2 cents/experience in here for fun.

When I was a junior (5 years ago) I catch rode anything I could find. My trainer always had tons of sale ponies and horses and I rode most of them at home all week before the shows, then I showed junior and children's hunters and children's jumpers at WEF as well as during the summer shows (even in the junior jumpers a bit). I was supposed to show a junior hunter at Indoors before I broke my arm (I'm still angry about it). Before that I showed lots of ponies (ok, so I'm short and still showed 5 or 6 large ponies my last junior year...haha) and never expected to be paid, ever.

Now, I was given a lot of nice gifts. I usually got gift certificates for stores that were on the show grounds, but I once got a nice pair of sunglasses and another time I got a custom saddle pad. Somebody bought me a Hadfield's raincoat on a rainy day when I was showing their children's hunter, haha.

But the point is, I would have ridden these horses even if I hadn't received anything. And although most of them were top quality horses, a lot of the ones I rode (and didn't show) were either really young or really naughty, and I was more than happy to get on.

I think you just have to find a junior whose main goal in life is to have more time in the saddle. Because when I was a junior all I wanted in life was to spend every waking hour at the barn or in the saddle.

There are plenty of kids like that out there - just keep searching & don't give up hope! It sounds like you have a nice horse who deserves to be ridden by somebody who is jumping at the chance to get on him :)

[kdriding]

I only wish someone by us was in need of a rider. My daughter would jump at the opportunity. She has a VERY nice horse of her own, but the more time in the saddle and variety of rides the better. So, if you are in MA and close to us, I can have her at your barn asap!;)

[Giddy-up]

OP--you are just offering this opportunity to the wrong riders.

As their trainer, you know the experience would benefit them, but obviously the rider doesn't want it as much as they & their parent's want to believe they do. A junior who wants it would have jumped on this before you finished explaining it & would have never dreamed of asking for payment. Perhaps you need to offer this to a rider with no horse or a rider who has a horse, but is looking for more riding time still. Your riders (no offense to them) just don't seem interested enough if they don't want to be bothered with any extra all expense paid saddle/show time unless they are getting paid.

[meupatdoes]

OK - I'll bite. What exactly are you asking them to do? Catch ride at a show? Or ride your horses 3-4 times per week to keep them fit/going? Because one looks like fun and the other looks like "work."

Since when does riding a horse 3-4 times per week to keep them fit/going look like "work"? It's not work, it's RIDING, and anytime you have the opportunity to ride somebody else's horse with them paying all of its upkeep and you getting to do the fun part, it is a privilege.

I used to ride with a trainer who had a combination of fancy show horses and auction purchases in her barn. I rode five or six a day, was as happy to ride the auction horses as the show horses, and was grateful for the opportunity to sit on so many horses. If my trainer was gone for the weekend at another auction I made sure the constantly rotating string of sale horses stayed in work, doing all my grooming, tacking and putting away for all six. I did not get paid; I did not even get a discount on board for my show horses.

I guess you would have turned your nose up at the opportunity to teach Patches the paint/draft cross how to canter both directions, but I was happy to do it.

People think "riding" is clocking around the show ring on a made horse that someone else is paying the bills on and everything else is "work".

You have got to be kidding me. "Work" is mucking the stable or what I do in my office every day to afford the sport.

[PonyHunter70]

I am a junior myself, and I am doing fairly well at the locals, considering my pony is still young, and I did the final training on him. I don't catchride for other barns, but there are several ponies/horses that I hop on at my barn. I have done everything from helping train a 3yr old to just tune ups at shows, and I don't get paid. Personally I find the experience worth a whole lot more than the money. I mean getting the chance to train a three year old, and see her owner go in and win classes. It makes me so happy to know that I helped with that, and it makes me a better rider over all. I have gotten perks though from the training rides. One of the moms at our barn gave me a gift card to a local tack shop after her daughter won champion after I got on her pony. I have also gotten to show someone's pony that I helped train. I was chasing points in local eq, and my parents didn't want to pay for my pony to be at the show, so they let me take their pony in the division, of course I paid for the division, but that was it. It is all just fun and experience to me, so I don't understand why it is necessary to pay a junior to ride your horse.

[FarnleyGarnet]

The only time I could imagine paying a Junior to ride my horse would be asking a BNJrider to show my horse at an A show. Horse would be completely ready for rider to just hop on, school a fence or 2 and walk in the ring. I'd be paying the rider because I wanted my horse be shown at his best in a division I can no longer compete in myself and probably because I was already marketing or considering marketing him as a Childrens or Junior Hunter.

That being said, it doesn't sound like the OP's situation is what I just described. Sounds like these junior riders see riding any horse other than their own as a chore. I'd jump at the opportunity to ride a nice horse for free. In fact, I would be perfectly happy to pay for my own lessons and show expenses. We'd be helping each other out.

I'm positive there is at least 1 junior rider out there (or an AA) who is looking for a situation like you're offering. Maybe a girl who shows potential but can't afford to buy her own horse. Maybe this girl would treat your horse as if he was her own and spend hours grooming him, feeding treats, cleaning his tack, noticing every bump or scrach, etc. After a few weeks on your horse she might become the rider you're looking for, and she would genuinely apprectiate the opportunity you've given her. Hell if you're around Northern VA pm me and I'll be that girl! :)

If you still can't think of a girl like I described put some nice photos in an ad and charge a big lease fee. I'll bet a lot of those juniors you described would start nagging their parents about leasing your guy. For some reason free equals low quality to some people. Raise the price and people perceive a higher value.

[Giddy-up]

If you still can't think of a girl like I described put some nice photos in an ad and charge a big lease fee. I'll bet a lot of those juniors you described would start nagging their parents about leasing your guy. For some reason free equals low quality to some people. Raise the price and people perceive a higher value.

so true. :lol::lol::lol:

[Bent Hickory]

Since when does riding a horse 3-4 times per week to keep them fit/going look like "work"? It's not work, it's RIDING, and anytime you have the opportunity to ride somebody else's horse with them paying all of its upkeep and you getting to do the fun part, it is a privilege.

I'll tell my trainer that. I'll also tell that to all the 20-something young men and women in my area that hack out hunt horses to prepare them for the foxhunting season. Maybe they should just do it for the privilege.

The OP claims to be acting out of the goodness of her heart in the interests of these young riders. If so, good for her.

[Trixie]

I'll also tell that to all the 20-something young men and women in my area that hack out hunt horses to prepare them for the foxhunting season. Maybe they should just do it for the privilege.

I'd consider that acting in a professional capacity. They're preparing the horses for something, working soley for the benefit of the horse/trainer, not to improve their own skills.

It sounds in this case as if the junior needs the ride to improve, not that the horses need the juniors to put schooling/show miles on them.

[meupatdoes]

I'll tell my trainer that. I'll also tell that to all the 20-something young men and women in my area that hack out hunt horses to prepare them for the foxhunting season. Maybe they should just do it for the privilege.

The OP claims to be acting out of the goodness of her heart in the interests of these young riders. If so, good for her.

Note that none of the people you plan on telling all this to are juniors, or even adults who ride in an amateur capacity.

[Bent Hickory]

Note that none of the people you plan on telling all this to are juniors, or even adults who ride in an amateur capacity.

Note that your statements regarding what is or what is not work with regard to riding was not caveated to exclude juniors or adults riding in an amateur capacity.

In fact, your exact words were "anytime you have the opportunity to ride somebody else's horse with them paying all of its upkeep and you getting to do the fun part, it is a privilege."

[Mini_Me]

I'm positive there is at least 1 junior rider out there (or an AA) who is looking for a situation like you're offering. Maybe a girl who shows potential but can't afford to buy her own horse. Maybe this girl would treat your horse as if he was her own and spend hours grooming him, feeding treats, cleaning his tack, noticing every bump or scrach, etc. After a few weeks on your horse she might become the rider you're looking for, and she would genuinely apprectiate the opportunity you've given her. Hell if you're around Northern VA pm me and I'll be that girl! :)



*Waves arms wildly* I'm over here!!!

OP, you can bring those horses up to Calgary anytime and I'll be happen to ride, lesson, and show them for as long as you like.:winkgrin:

[Donkey]

If your juniours don't want the ride, get a working student (pt or ft).

They'll appreciate the rides and training and you can get something out of the deal too.

IMO kids that own aren't nearly as grateul for extra rides as kids that don't

[Haalter]

Since when does riding a horse 3-4 times per week to keep them fit/going look like "work"? It's not work, it's RIDING, and anytime you have the opportunity to ride somebody else's horse with them paying all of its upkeep and you getting to do the fun part, it is a privilege.
Meupatdoes, thank you for posting so eloquently exactly what I've been trying to say. I didn't think it was necessary to quote your entire post, but I agree 100% with every word you said...thank you.

Again, just to clarify, I'm not talking about getting free training from professionals here, I'm talking about children's level riders who say they want to compete in the big eq, and aspire to be professionals someday, yet are turning down opportunities that would help them get there. In my opinion, you don't go from being a 3' rider to being a competent professional without doing a lot of (often unpaid) riding in between.

[Bent Hickory]

I guess you would have turned your nose up at the opportunity to teach Patches the paint/draft cross how to canter both directions, but I was happy to do it.

For the record, I'm not turning my nose up at anything -- just offering an alternate perspective to the situation presented by the OP.

FWIW My daughters have ridden/shown ponies for other owners several times. In fact, they have ridden ponies for Windswept and Windswept's daughters have ridden ponies for me. My girls do it for the experience (and are absolutely thrilled to do so), but I fully expect to pay/compensate/gift Windswept's daughters.

[Schune]

As a once-was-junior rider, I can say for certain that I would have kissed the ground in order to get an extra ride on ANY horse, whether it be green, schoolmaster, three-legged, peg-footed, etc. etc.

Now, as a twenty-year-old and college sophmore, I'm STILL of that mindset. Right now on the school's IHSA team I get one ride a week, and I'm dying. As soon as I get my car down here, I'll be putting a post in the Horseless rider/Riderless horse thread.

Haalter, if you're near Columbus, call me! I'd kiss your feet to ride ;)

[correy]

When I was a junior (mind you this was less than 10 years ago so we aren't talking about a hugely different generation!) I caught rode all the time, and I'm not talking local shows (although I rode some there as well if a greenie in the barn needed to go), I won consistently in the As including Indoors. I don't remember a time that I actually got "paid." Yes, a lot of trainers/owners would buy me a gift, but no one would ever hand me cash and it never even occurred to me to ask. The most I would ever ask for is if they asked me to travel for a show, that I hadn't been planning on going to, that they pay for the hotel. Although, if i managed to scrounge up a USET horse for the weekend, my parents would usually offer to pay for that, since the show benefited me as well.

If I was going to show a horse that was from my barn I would definitely hack it/lesson on it/whatever to make sure I could do as good a job as possible at the horse show. There was no reason to go show and then do a terrible job! I wouldn't typically go to other farms to ride horses before the show though, most of them were pretty far away.

One trainer, that I rode 2 for at most of the shows would get me a little something every time, like a cute bracelet or something sweet but not ridiculously expensive. Another trainer I helped campaign a horse for off and on throughout the year got me a new show coat, which was awesome! A different trainer that I rode anywhere from 1-4 hunters for for a while let me take the owners junior jumper around at one show because they knew I'd much rather be in the jumper ring!!
The only time I can remember being paid is when I went to another trainers barn to hack 4-5 horses everyday for a week or so because they were gone showing elsewhere and needed the horses at home to stay in shape. I was a working student at another barn so they felt they should compensate me for my time. I wasn't going to disagree with them =)

Anyways, back to my point, catch riding is a privilege. Especially at the lower levels! The idea that "professional juniors" should be paid is hard enough for me to swallow, I can't even imagine your students thinking they should be paid for you to train them? Don't they pay you already? They should be thrilled that they're getting extra lessons for free!

Sorry for the novel!

[justathought]

ExJumper said, "Some very good juniors need to get paid to finance their riding. Some very good juniors are so good that they simply couldn't ride everything that people offer them. If someone offered a Rox Dene clone to a very good junior but couldn't pay, the junior (if she was smart) would do it for free. But for you average everyday horse? The very good junior should get paid if that is what she wants."

There was another thread about this quite awhile ago. The truth is juniors think they can get paid to ride because people pay them. In my view, juniors should not be paid, even the top ones. Every opportunity to get on another horse, to show another horse improves the rider and that is sufficient reward for someone who is not a professional. I subscribe to the view that juniors cannot be professional because they cannot be legally liable for their actions and therefore they should not be paid for riding. I know there are those who disagree...

[dogchushu]

Wait a second... I can't be the only one who encounters kids who continually bug me with "Can I ride your horse? I bet I could ride your horse! Can I ride your horse? CanIcanIcanIcanI?" (Meanwhile, my horse and I shudder to think of what they'd do if they threw a leg over her!) Do you mean that if I break down and let them climb aboard they'd then give me a bill? :eek:

There are some juniors I'd pay to ride my horse if I needed her worked. However, they've got some mad skillz they've developed by, well, riding lots of horses! I'm sure they weren't always paid to ride. They got that way only after many hours in the saddle, either because someone nice offered them rides on good horses and/or they put in sweat equity on the bad horses no one else wanted to ride.

[Candle]

Kids and teens are taught to look at everything as a prospective job. They are expected to be more independent at a younger age and pay for more. American emphasis on individualism at all costs, blah blah blah. So, juniors ask to be paid. Why not just politely say no instead of promoting the idea that they should give their skills away for free every time when that is decidedly not the way mainstream culture is going? People are getting paid for anything and everything these days, more and more niche markets are being filled by people asking to be paid for random things. I call it enterprising, you call it over-ego-ed and entitled. I don't necessarily agree that they SHOULD get paid, mind you, but the mere fact that they are asking isn't all that outlandish.

[LookinSouth]

Maybe you could find some diamond in the rough type younger adult ammys like me who are have stepped into the real world and have grown up enough to truly appreciate what you have generously offered?


I second this. Don't waste your time waiting for a grateful junior to come around. They are far and few between. I truly think many have no idea about the costs and sacrifices associated with owning a horse as mummy and daddy foot all the bills.:no:
There are plenty of working young adult ammies who cannot even afford to own a horse who would KILL for an opportunity to lesson and show for FREE. Heck, I have a fairly nice horse of my own to ride and I would schlep across the state for that offer tommorrow.

[rideoff]

As someone who is aging out at the end of this year, I can't imagine asking someone to pay me to ride their horse. I'm fairly competent in the hunter and jumper ring but I couldn't imagine asking for reimbursement to ride someone's horse. I'm happy just to get an extra ride, regardless of what I get to do with it (I'm over the moon when I get to flat a horse!) or the quality of the horse.

I guess I could understand a top winning junior (in the 3'6", not the 3') charging for rides, but having never been in the position of having so many rides of my own that I don't have time for another, I wouldn't dream of asking someone for payment myself. My feeling is that in the pool of 3' children's riders, there are enough competent riders who aren't going to charge you that it would be quite unnecessary to pay someone to ride a horse, especially one that's suitable for its respective division and pleasant to ride.

That having been said, for a young junior who doesn't drive themselves, I can see where parents (especially non-horsey ones) would be reluctant to drive their kid all over the place to ride another horse.

[Haalter]

Kids and teens are taught to look at everything as a prospective job. They are expected to be more independent at a younger age and pay for more.
I don't want to be one of those adults who says, "when I was your age, I walked to school backwards through the snow without shoes..." but what you said is about the opposite of my experience.

When I was a junior, I did all the extra work I could - braiding, stalls, babysitting, etc - to help defray the cost of showing. By the time I was 17, I *was* getting paid for some riding and up-down lessons, but I feel like I'd earned that privilege by then - I was definitely past the children's hunter level in my riding, and I'd ridden whatever anybody would let me ride for free on the way there.

These days, parents constantly tell me how difficult it is for their high schooler to handle the stress of a job like stall cleaning a few hours a week on top of going to school. When I bring a load of hay in, I am willing to pay the teens $10/hour to help unload it (something I often did for free as a teen if the BM needed an extra hand) and most of them say it's too hard. Just last week a mom called me to say her daughter couldn't unload hay this time because last time "her back was sore the next day" the last time she helped out. And these are the same kids who want to be paid for riding :rolleyes: Maybe I sound bitter, or maybe I just have a particularly spoiled crop of kids this year, but there you have it.

[Windswept Stable]

As this goes on, I am stopping to think. It is one thing for a junior rider to catch ride at a show for free. The horse is there & ready and you just get on it and then hand it over.
However, if the kid is expected to ride during the week, tack up/ cool down for an extra horse and then have an additional lesson time...
as a parent --I might not be too excited about it either. Parents are busy. Kids are busy. Unless the kids can drive on their own, you are asking a parent to accomodate your wishes also. Maybe they have to make an extra trip to the barn for this? Just a thought. I do know one time, when still a junior my daughter was asked to show a jumper at Upperville and it required her to lesson 3 times a week. Of course she was totally excited to do so but as a parent, I was not jumping up and down to have to drive across town all the extra trips just to accomodate the deal for someone elses sales horse. Turned out something better came along and she had two to ride --in the same class of all things, but the 2nd ride was a true catch ride. She climbed on at the ring and went in and actually won a ribbon.

[twobays]

I just have to chuckle at the few posters who talked about the "entitlement" attitude of juniors.

I mean, expecting someone to jump at the chance to work your horses for you for free is the epitome of "entitlement." :lol: I think people just like to rag on kids.

Also, to the OP, if the kids politely declined your offer (for whatever reason), what's the issue? Unless they got bitchy with you...whats the problem? Find someone else and move on.

[Noctis]

Different situation, but I *was* paid to ride a lot as a jr, because although not a world class show rider, I was a darn good pony jock for rank ponies. And I have to cover GETTING there and back, which was usually a hike. At my barn? For an easy comfy ride that was for ME and not schooling/reworking a horse? I JUMPED on those because they were FUN and I could work on me with my trainer and etc not school rank ponies! I also braided, did stalls, taught up down lessons and then some (as an older jr), anything I could do to defray costs. Plus work at my parents boarding barn. Wouldn't have traded it for the world. Your juniors...maybe just not for them. If they don't WANT to get free lessons and shows, then don't try and make them. There are TONS of ammy's or jr's that would love it...find them!

[RugBug]

I don't want to be one of those adults who says, "when I was your age, I walked to school backwards through the snow without shoes..." but what you said is about the opposite of my experience.

When I was a junior, I did all the extra work I could - braiding, stalls, babysitting, etc - to help defray the cost of showing. By the time I was 17, I *was* getting paid for some riding and up-down lessons, but I feel like I'd earned that privilege by then - I was definitely past the children's hunter level in my riding, and I'd ridden plenty of horses for free on the way there.

These days, parents constantly tell me how difficult it is for their high schooler to handle the stress of a job like stall cleaning a few hours a week on top of going to school. When I have a load of hay come in, I am willing to pay the teens $10/hour to help unload it (something I often did for free as a teen if the BM needed an extra hand) and most of them say it's too hard. Just last week a mom called me to say her daughter couldn't unload hay this time because last time "her back was sore the next day" the last time she helped out. And these are the same kids who want to be paid for riding :rolleyes: Maybe I sound bitter, or maybe I just have a particularly spoiled crop of kids this year, but there you have it.

Heh. I agree with you. When I read the quote you posted I almost spit water at the screen. Teens are expected to be more independent and pay for more these days? That's a hoot and a half. (Yes, SOME are...but many are getting a free ride through college and even beyond).

The teens I encountered only help when and for as long as they feel like it...which isn't often and of short duration. They will willingly sit around and watch adults do the physical labor that benefits them, etc. More independent my ass. Unless of course, you mean more independent and pay their way by 'filling their own time with what they want to do' and 'using mommy and daddy's credit cards and developing no real sense of what it costs to live in this world.'

And yes, I'm a little annoyed by many teens of today...BUT, I do reward the good ones in anyway I can. The ones that do help out without being asked and don't whine about it. The ones that appreciate what they do have. The ones that are lovely to be around.

[kateh]

I'm getting a little annoyed with the entitled brats line. :no:

On behalf of all the "kids today" I would just like to ask-who do you think made us who we are? No one is born an ingrateful snot- someone has to teach them to be. If you hand a kid everything she wants, why shouldn't she feel entitled? So before anyone goes on a rant about "kids today" take a good look at their parents. And here's an idea-talk to them about it.

I was taught there's no such thing as a free lunch-or free labor. There are favors for family and friends, but when I put in work for you, I expect to receive some form of compensation. Even if I like the kids I babysit, I don't expect to do it for free.

Now because I'm a horse deprived student, I'd jump at the chance to ride and show someone's horse because I consider the riding and showing "compensation". In my life, it's supply/demand-you've got a horse that needs worked, I've got the desire to ride a horse. But if I was happy with the amount of riding and showing I did, and didn't really have the time for more? I'd pass. Low demand, high supply (i.e. own horse).

Find a kid who doesn't have their own horse and ask them-they may not ride as well as the others, but when they're out there riding and caring for your horse every single day, they'll get better fast.

[BlueBobRadar]

I'm a junior, and until recently I didn't even know other juniors got PAID to ride. I would be sosososososooooo excited to ride another horse, any other horse!!! And a chance to ride a pony again would be the most exciting thing ever!!! I love ponies!!!

[Trixie]

I'm getting a little annoyed with the entitled brats line. :no:

On behalf of all the "kids today" I would just like to ask-who do you think made us who we are? No one is born an ingrateful snot- someone has to teach them to be. If you hand a kid everything she wants, why shouldn't she feel entitled? So before anyone goes on a rant about "kids today" take a good look at their parents. And here's an idea-talk to them about it.


Believe me, there's a lot of parents who should be smacked, and we all know they're the reason that kids act entitled. Mind you - I'm not old - but I am pretty darn gobsmacked from what I've heard of more recent teens than I. Unfortunately, parents that bring their children up that way tend to be less than grateful if someone such as the horse trainer suggested their child put in the time and effort.

I mean, expecting someone to jump at the chance to work your horses for you for free is the epitome of "entitlement." I think people just like to rag on kids.

If it's a greenie that needs miles and is as likely to toss you into a wall as it is to trot a circle, I might agree with you. But the OP is offering a solid citizen who can jump around the 3'6" - to me, being offered to ride something like that is an HONOR, not a chore. Sharing a NICE horse with someone who does not have one and offering to pay for entries is absolutely an honor, ESPECIALLY for a young rider who is a novice.

But then again, I'm from the school where you said "thank you" when you were being offered a gift, and you understood that every horse has something to teach you. It would be one thing if the rider had something to teach the horse or proven showing skills to contribute, which apparently, they do not.

If the rider was truly interested in honing their skills and wanting to go pro someday, they would recognize a good learning experience when they saw one. If the rider does not have time or parents that are willing to drop them at the farm, they may politely decline.

[JET11]

I got tired of reading all the nonsense and went right to the end. Under no circumstance should a Junior be paid for riding. Back in the day, I catch rode lots as a Junior for everyone and never expected to get any money. Hell, I was honored that I was being asked to catch ride. I would get on anything that I was asked to ride. That is what makes a rider. These "Hotshot" Juniors need to come to reality. Nicki Shahinian is probably the last Junior that could get on anything and get it done. I watch these "Hotshots" these days missing the jumps all over the place. I realize they are just kids and are going to make mistakes, but where the hell do they get off thinking they should get paid. Are they going going to pay me when they go in and chip on the fancy first year horse I've asked them to ride in the Juniors? I don't think so. Yeah, you usually want one of the slick kids to ride your horse, but they benefit plenty when they win. Every time they walk in the ring on a catch ride, they are being promoted. And now they want to get paid for it? Give me a break. Luckily there are still a few humble and nice Junior kids that are actually appreciative, such as Jessica Springsteen and Schaeffer Raposa. Obviously Jessica has her own horses, but there is not a nicer kid. While Schaeffer only rides horses owned by other people, she is always nice and thanks you for the ride. That is how it should be. I remember as a kid, sitting by the ring hoping to get asked to ride. This Business has gotten way out of hand if these kids think they should get paid. We are helping develop these kids for "THEIR" future. When they turn professional are they going to reimburse us professionals for all the time and money we spent on them?????????

[meupatdoes]

Note that your statements regarding what is or what is not work with regard to riding was not caveated to exclude juniors or adults riding in an amateur capacity.

In fact, your exact words were "anytime you have the opportunity to ride somebody else's horse with them paying all of its upkeep and you getting to do the fun part, it is a privilege."

1. Um, since this whole thread is about juniors, I figured everyone could play along and figure out that I was talking about juniors.

2. You yourself seemed to be talking about somebody other than a professional, since your exact words were "Catch ride at a show? Or ride your horses 3-4 times per week to keep them fit/going? Because one looks like fun and the other looks like "work."
Obviously you wouldn't tell your trainer, "Hey, catch riding my horse at this show should be FUN for you," so I think you were talking about juniors too and are just trying to randomly throw in professionals all of a sudden to back pedal.

Interestingly enough, "Catch ride at a show? Or ride your horses 3-4 times per week to keep them fit/going? Because one looks like fun and the other looks like "work."

sounds an awful lot like

People think "riding" is clocking around the show ring on a made horse that someone else is paying the bills on and everything else is "work".


Of course, I'll make sure to employ your logic the next time my trainer (I believe the OP is a pro) offers me their made hunter to clock around the AA's with that they bought and pay all the expenses for and they are the one holding the bag when it colics that really *I* am the one doing *them* the favor.

Oh, and just wondering, but...who the hell pissed in your cheerios this morning? Christ.

[twobays]

If it's a greenie that needs miles and is as likely to toss you into a wall as it is to trot a circle, I might agree with you. But the OP is offering a solid citizen who can jump around the 3'6" - to me, being offered to ride something like that is an HONOR, not a chore. Sharing a NICE horse with someone who does not have one and offering to pay for entries is absolutely an honor, ESPECIALLY for a young rider who is a novice.

But then again, I'm from the school where you said "thank you" when you were being offered a gift, and you understood that every horse has something to teach you. It would be one thing if the rider had something to teach the horse or proven showing skills to contribute, which apparently, they do not.

If the rider was truly interested in honing their skills and wanting to go pro someday, they would recognize a good learning experience when they saw one. If the rider does not have time or parents that are willing to drop them at the farm, they may politely decline.

I don't particularly appreciate the implication that I wouldn't say "thank you" for a gift, or that I don't feel different horses have something to teach. I come from a school where I don't run to the internet to complain about the behavior of children, but to each his own.

My only point was that the OP seemed to think that she deserved/was entitled to have someone jump at the opportunity to ride her horse without compensation. Expecting a person to do something for you for free - THAT is the definition of entitlement, it doesn't matter how much anyone is gaining or losing in the situation.

I have no comment on dynamics of the situation at hand - particularly without hearing from the junior herself. My only point was that I see an awful lot of the pot calling the kettle black in this thread.

[Haalter]

I come from a school where I don't run to the internet to complain about the behavior of children, but to each his own.

My only point was that the OP seemed to think that she deserved/was entitled to have someone jump at the opportunity to ride her horse without compensation. Expecting a person to do something for you for free - THAT is the definition of entitlement, it doesn't matter how much anyone is gaining
*headdesk* This takes the cake. Thanks.

[DancingQueen]

Not having read all.
The answer would be "your desire to have that particular junior ride your horse".

Market determins the price for everything and varies as demand and availability changes. Particularly when there's no overhead or "product" such as in the case of a junior catching a ride.

Soma juniors are worth it, some ore just lucky to get a ride. If the price is too high you have the option to refuse the offer or renegotiate it.

[Candle]

The way I see it is that the price of college has shot through the roof. College admissions has gotten competitive to the point of being out of hand. It's getting harder and harder to get a decent job without a college education. I don't know who you're looking at, but most of the kids I went to school with had massive student loans and so did their parents, without whose help and cosigning the kids really could NOT have afforded to go to college. Any junior who wants a good shot at scholarship money is going to be too busy doing resume building activities to ride for free. Anyone not doing those resume building activities needs the money to save up for college and can't ride for free. I'm just saying that I think that the times when people could afford to spend a LOT of time and their own money for opportunities such as those described by the OP might be a thing of the past.

[_downpour_]

Say you did want to pay a Jr to show your horse - on average, how much $$ should you give for one show? (around 5 classes)

[LookinSouth]

Any junior who wants a good shot at scholarship money is going to be too busy doing resume building activities to ride for free. Anyone not doing those resume building activities needs the money to save up for college and can't ride for free. I'm just saying that I think that the times when people could afford to spend a LOT of time and their own money for opportunities such as those described by the OP might be a thing of the past.

I have to agree with this to some degree. That said, I still say there are two kinds of riders out there (juniors included)

1.) those that consider riding "work" unless they out in the show ring winning on a made fancy horse. These riders usually want nothing to do extra rides, riding greenies, helping out at the barn etc... Riding really isn't their passion...showing is.

2.) Those that are serious hardworking riders who want/take every opportunity to ride/lesson/show a horse that can teach them something ( like in the scenario the OP mentions). These are the riders that ride because they are passionate about RIDING and improving their skills.

I think today's teens do have alot on their plate but when there is a will there is a way. If I was offered a situation in which I could lesson/ride/show a made 3-3'6 horse for FREE I would find a way to take the opportunity. If I could do it working full time, going to grad school full time and managing a small private farm I am pretty sure the average Junior could handle it too if they so desired.

[Bent Hickory]

Um, since this whole thread is about juniors, I figured everyone could play along and figure out that I was talking about juniors.

And I figured that everyone could play along and figure out that I was offering a different perspective on this other than "those entitled brats." There are two sides to every story and OP only presented one side.

[Jumphigh83]

No one is saying that all juniors are "entitled brats". What I am saying is that it is nearly impossible to find an ambitious youngster who wants to work to ride. Maybe it is the parents who can't/won't help them (rides to barn, etc). I don't know what the problem is I just know that there are MANY horses out there that need riding and very few young riders available.

[Haalter]

Re: education - that just proves my point even more. These kids talk about wanting to be professionals. I am a professional, and although I went to an Ivy League college, the experience I had riding and caring for horses as a junior did more to prepare me for my career than my college courses. If these kids want to be horse professionals and are looking for an educational bargain, they're missing the boat.

But hey, according to the rationale of some of the posters here, these kids should be paid to go to college because it's a lot of "work".

[Trixie]

I don't particularly appreciate the implication that I wouldn't say "thank you" for a gift, or that I don't feel different horses have something to teach. I come from a school where I don't run to the internet to complain about the behavior of children, but to each his own.

My only point was that the OP seemed to think that she deserved/was entitled to have someone jump at the opportunity to ride her horse without compensation. Expecting a person to do something for you for free - THAT is the definition of entitlement, it doesn't matter how much anyone is gaining or losing in the situation.

I didn't implicate anything about you. I *do* think that the OP is offering an enormous gift to a student who said they wanted to go pro someday - a chance to improve their skills on a quality animal who is capable of taking them higher - FREE learning experience. Offers like that come around RARELY for most, again: ESPECIALLY WHEN THE RIDER IN QUESTION IS A NOVICE without much show experience: i.e. of no benefit to the horse.

Offering a horse to ride and paying the entry fees for a junior who otherwise would not have the chance is not ENTITLEMENT, it's incredible GENEROSITY.

[Jumphigh83]

^5 Trixie.

[slp]

At the barns where we have kept our horses, I don't think I have ever known one junior rider that would ever say 'pay me' to the trainer when asked to ride/school/whatever on another horse that wasn't their own. Usually the only time they would say 'no' would be because of time constraints on the rider. These kids all had nice horses themselves, but any and all extra saddle time on different horses only made all of them better riders on their own horse.

My daughter is a college student now, and she has two very nice horses at school with her this year. However, on the days that she doesn't have classes, she is willing to stay out there all afternoon and school any horse that the trainer asks her to ride, both the push-button schoolies for the beginner kids to the more advanced horses that might need some tuning up. She rides for the IHSA team and knows that the more horses she sits on, the better she rides on the draw horse at a competition. The kids that see riding as a hobby are the ones that would look at it as a job; the kids that see riding as a passion will be the ones that look at it as an opportunity.

[meupatdoes]

And I figured that everyone could play along and figure out that I was offering a different perspective on this other than "those entitled brats." There are two sides to every story and OP only presented one side.

The way I understand your 'different perspective', it appears that you think the OP, who is a professional, should consider paying her junior clients to ride her horses. So professionals should buy horses, develop them, and then when they are ready to get ridden by customers they should pay the customers to ride them. You should tell THAT to your trainer.

My trainers must be taking advantage of me because when I ride their horses they not only don't pay me, but sometimes have the NERVE to expect me to pay for the lesson! Here I was thinking they are being super generous when I get to hack their horse that is worth twice as much as my own and for which I pay zero farrier or feed bills but apparently I should be charging for my non-pro services.

Noted.

[Tamsin]

I completely agree with posters who have said that you pay juniors, or any one else, when you are asking them to do a service for you that will take time and skill. If the OP needs people to exercise and show her horses, she should expect to pay for this service. If she is offering to let juniors show her excellent horses purely from altruism, then don’t offer pay. But also don’t be surprised or angry if the juniors, for whatever reason, don’t accept your offer.

Haalter, from a parent’s point of view, I find your attitude a bit annoying. Riding is an especially expensive skill to acquire. If the juniors in question are having success at the local 3’ level and they have their own horses, this suggests that thousands of $$$ have been spent on their riding educations. Also their parents have spent countless hours driving them to the barn and shows and waiting countless more hours to bring them home. If you want them to ride your very nice horses, I assume that you consider them to be decent riders. Yet you feel that these relatively skilled young people should eagerly offer their time and skills for free. I could understand this if you simply wanted them to catch ride at shows they were already attending, but it sounds like you want much more time than this.

Well, their time isn’t free. Someone is paying for it, presumably their parents who you have indicated are not wealthy. Teenagers do in fact get paid for most jobs that they do outside the horse world. My younger teenager covers many of her own expenses since people are eager to pay her $8-10/hour to babysit. She earns even more for pet sitting and coaching little kids soccer in the summer and she’s not even an especially good player.

On the other hand, my older daughter, the horsewoman, earned very little throughout her high school years. This was not from laziness. On the contrary, she worked her butt off being just the girl you say you want: eager to ride anything for free and do anything she was asked around the barn, including two summers as a working student (aka, a barn slave). She’s a great rider and people were happy for her help with their horses. But no one offered to pay her. So her Dad and I had to pick up all of her horse-related and other expenses. We paid for her time at the barn because the BO, like many other on this board, didn’t have the fairness and sense of responsibility to pay for her services themselves.

Folks, if you asked a young guy with lots of painting experience to paint your house would you expect him to do it for free and feel privileged to do the job? No? Then why expect girls to ride your horses for free?

[pegasus3233]

I am a junior rider that is available for hacking, showing, or anything else horse related. My show age will be 15 next year and I currently own 2 jumpers. I have many wins at top AA shows in the Junior Jumpers and I am currently ranked in the top 10 nationally with my 6 yr old young jumper. I placed in the 3 foot SCM NCM final at Capital Challenge as an 11 year old and also have placed in the children's jumper finals in Harrisburg and Washington. I care for my horses at the shows 100% and have never had a groom (except my mom!!!). I will be going to Wellington this year and will be there for almost the entire time. The horses are stabled off the show grounds (across street). And I am responsible for their care 24/7. I am always looking for any opportunities to expand my riding. I am capable of handling my schedule and myself in a professional manner. I am fully involved with my horse budget and while I am fortunate, I don't have unlimited funds. I have shown in the 3-6 eq , most notably at Kentucky spring where the horse (over $100k) was sold after 2 eq classes. I would love to ride more hunters as I don't have that much experience in it, and of course Eq. I have a very strong desire to become a top rider and then someday become a professional. I can't imagine ever being paid for any ride as I have so much still to learn. If you have any interest in contacting me please PM me. Of course the trainer I'm working with in WEF will be involved. She is very supportive of any opportunity that I might get. Thank you and I look forward to hearing from you.

[Haalter]

I completely agree with posters who have said that you pay juniors, or any one else, when you are asking them to do a service for you that will take time and skill. If the OP needs people to exercise and show her horses, she should expect to pay for this service.Actually, I don't think of it as a "service", I think of it as a wonderful opportunity. With the "skill" these kids are bringing to the table, it's actually an unusually generous opportunity. And I don't *need* someone to exercise and show my horses - they'd be perfectly happy hanging out doing nothing or getting ridden for free at home by my (much more advanced) adult rider...or even the young pro I know, who has more than once asked to ride the jumper without pay, just because he's such a cool horse to ride.

[RugBug]

I'm getting a little annoyed with the entitled brats line. :no:

I was taught there's no such thing as a free lunch-or free labor. There are favors for family and friends, but when I put in work for you, I expect to receive some form of compensation. Even if I like the kids I babysit, I don't expect to do it for free.



Alright...then you tell the teens of today to start looking around at what is being handed to them and get to work to pay for it.

[meupatdoes]

Folks, if you asked a young guy with lots of painting experience to paint your house would you expect him to do it for free and feel privileged to do the job? No? Then why expect girls to ride your horses for free?

Because the painting that this painter would allegedly be painting has not already cost somebody else tens of thousands of dollars and does not require hundreds or even thousands of dollars of upkeep every month.

You know how expensive the sport is as a parent, but you seem to expect the OP here to float her competition horses out to junior clients on her own bill AND to pay them ON TOP.

However, I suppose from your post that when your children ride the horses you have purchased for them, you pay them each time they hop on to hack it. They are exercising and training your extremely expensive investment for you, after all.

[Bent Hickory]

I completely agree with posters who have said that you pay juniors, or any one else, when you are asking them to do a service for you that will take time and skill. If the OP needs people to exercise and show her horses, she should expect to pay for this service. If she is offering to let juniors show her excellent horses purely from altruism, then don’t offer pay. But also don’t be surprised or angry if the juniors, for whatever reason, don’t accept your offer.

Bingo.

[Trixie]

Haalter, from a parent’s point of view, I find your attitude a bit annoying. Riding is an especially expensive skill to acquire.

Yes - and the trainer is offering to improve their skills for free. Many people pay THOUSANDS to get the same experience. The OP's offer is more than generous.

If you want them to ride your very nice horses, I assume that you consider them to be decent riders. Yet you feel that these relatively skilled young people should eagerly offer their time and skills for free.

They've been offered an opportunity to improve their skills. Nowhere does the OP say the horses NEED to be ridden or shown. She's not marketing them for sale. Read for comprehension:

understand that these kids do not ride well enough to hop on my nice horses at a show and jump competently around a 3'6" course. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that they learn to get around a 3'6" course at home on these horses before I pay their way at a show. If I wanted to pay for my horses to be "exercised", schooled, or catch-ridden, I'd pay a professional, not a children's hunter rider.

These are not SKILLED riders. These are riders that would benefit from the extra attention, who have expressed a desire to more forward in their careers. I paid a fair amount for my education, as have most.

Well, their time isn’t free. Someone is paying for it, presumably their parents who you have indicated are not wealthy.

:lol: The OP offered to pay their show bills. The teens have expressed a desire to become PROFESSIONAL RIDERS, which involves a certain level of education that THEY DON'T HAVE.

Let me put it like this. In my chosen career, I've had several unpaid interns over the years. I've had ONE that had any skill worth paying for. The rest needed to put the time into learning about the trade before they were of any actual value whatsoever to me. Could they have made more money somewhere else? Sure. Were they gaining professional experience in their chosen career working for me? Yep. They gained skills that they could put on their resume.

An inexperienced teenager is not a professional. Quite often, they don't have skill set that professionals need to utilize.

[Bent Hickory]

You know how expensive the sport is as a parent, but you seem to expect the OP here to float her competition horses out to junior clients on her own bill AND to pay them ON TOP.

Where did anyone (other than you) say any parent expects this? The OP made an offer, the offer was rejected and the OP is "shocked." The only one here with expectations is the OP.

[Release First]

......Folks, if you asked a young guy with lots of painting experience to paint your house would you expect him to do it for free and feel privileged to do the job? No? Then why expect girls to ride your horses for free?

Because painting is a one way street. Your apply the paint and there is little feed back from what you applied it to. Riding a horse is a two way street. The horse teaches you something, if you are open to listening, each time you ride it. You may learn what works better for the horse or you may learn about your own weaknesses and strengths. A junior is not actually riding for free. The owner of the horse has put in many hours in training and/or much money to buy, feed, shoe and care for the horse. In this case, the OP was even offering FREE lessons and FREE hauling and FREE entries at the shows (I believe). If your horse is heavy on the left rein, canters crooked, etc., you slowly adjust your riding to that fault. Only by riding multiple horses can recognize and learn about what it feels like to be on a horse that has correct or better movement. Riding should be a joy and if it is not then the OP is probably better off not having these particular girls ride her horses.

I also find it amusing that people feel it is only right that juniors get paid when, unless they intend to become pro, the can't get paid after their 17 year old year and stay an amateur. All those juniors who are getting paid are in for a sudden shock after their last junior year.

[MLP]

So you're offering your horses to these riders purely out of the kindness of your heart, then right? No benefit to you at all? Solely out of the interest of developing a young rider...?

I call shenanigans. Sounds like you have a horse(s) that needs to get ridden and shown and you EXPECT someone to jump at the chance to do that for free.

I can imagine one of the riders posting this from the exact opposite perspective. "Some woman has a couple of "nothing special" horses at my barn. These horses seldom, if ever, get ridden and basically stay in their stall 24/7. She's trying to sell them but no bites as they are not in consistent work. She approached me about riding and showing them for her in order to get them sold. The catch is, she expects me to do this for free and is upset because I won't. Can you believe it?"

How bad do you need these horses ridden vs. how bad does one of these riders need a "local mount?" That will determine whether or not you have to pay.

exactly, you hit the nail on the head. Maybe the kids asking for money already have rides and of course the ones willing to do it for free probably don't. You have to decide what is most important to you, my bet would be - like many things - the higher the quality (in this example the young riders ability) the more you are going to pay. A kid who never gets to ride will jump on it while a kid who has to pick and choose rides wants to be paid. My feeling is, either they ARE already being paid someplace else which makes them think they are worthy OR they will continue to meet up with folks who laugh off the idea and they get a reality check. Something is only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it....

[MLP]

Actually, I'd like to develop these young riders out of kindness as well as a sense of business: their parents are paying me to board these kids' own horses, take lessons and show with me. Franklly, the kids' families do not have the budget to buy horses as nice as the ones I'm offering. I've had similar deals with other kids and other horses in the past; those kids have since aged out and moved on to college, etc and I thought I'd offer some younger, less experienced kids the same opportunity. Incidentally, I did not pay these other juniors to ride, and they appreciated the experience. And ironically, while I didn't pay these juniors, the mileage and the visibility they got showing mine led one to get some paid riding gigs at other farms, and she is now a full-time professional.



Actually, both horses are fit, ready to show, and while they may not be "special" at the top level, both are very nice horses who have won at 3' and 3'6" at rated shows this year. And I'm not "some woman" at their barn - I'm the trainer they have chosen to ride with. I think the scenario you are describing is quite different than what I'm talking about.


Oh, and neither horse is for sale. One may be someday, but the other will be mine for life.

Wait, your the trainer???? You're students are expecting you to pay - no WAY. My trainer has juniors who spend day and night at the farm riding anything and EVERYTHING he tells them too and they are LUCKY if they get a free lesson here and there. That changes the ENTIRE story!

[meupatdoes]

Where did anyone (other than you) say any parent expects this? The OP made an offer, the offer was rejected and the OP is "shocked." The only one here with expectations is the OP.

So what exactly are your expectations for the OP?

She doesn't seem to have met them whatever they are with the way you are carrying on.

[MLP]

I got tired of reading all the nonsense and went right to the end. Under no circumstance should a Junior be paid for riding. Back in the day, I catch rode lots as a Junior for everyone and never expected to get any money. Hell, I was honored that I was being asked to catch ride. I would get on anything that I was asked to ride. That is what makes a rider. These "Hotshot" Juniors need to come to reality. Nicki Shahinian is probably the last Junior that could get on anything and get it done. I watch these "Hotshots" these days missing the jumps all over the place. I realize they are just kids and are going to make mistakes, but where the hell do they get off thinking they should get paid. Are they going going to pay me when they go in and chip on the fancy first year horse I've asked them to ride in the Juniors? I don't think so. Yeah, you usually want one of the slick kids to ride your horse, but they benefit plenty when they win. Every time they walk in the ring on a catch ride, they are being promoted. And now they want to get paid for it? Give me a break. Luckily there are still a few humble and nice Junior kids that are actually appreciative, such as Jessica Springsteen and Schaeffer Raposa. Obviously Jessica has her own horses, but there is not a nicer kid. While Schaeffer only rides horses owned by other people, she is always nice and thanks you for the ride. That is how it should be. I remember as a kid, sitting by the ring hoping to get asked to ride. This Business has gotten way out of hand if these kids think they should get paid. We are helping develop these kids for "THEIR" future. When they turn professional are they going to reimburse us professionals for all the time and money we spent on them?????????

But in the end that IS why those kids are getting better and getting better quality rides. Ok Jessie owns her horses but Schaeffer and Samantha and Leelie (sp?) if they do a good job and are considerate and thankful, you know what it's a win/win. I think it is more common to find owners giving "gifts" many times LARGE gifts, over cash. I do think expenses should be paid also if the kid is coming out just to show YOUR horse, but other than that, pros get the money. It's a touchy subject and again, if someone is willing to pay well then, the kid will get paid.

[Candle]

Because the painting that this painter would allegedly be painting has not already cost somebody else tens of thousands of dollars and does not require hundreds or even thousands of dollars of upkeep every month.

Um, who bought the house? :D

I'm just pointing out that maybe juniors need the money. It seems that the OP just wants to do some supported ranting, that's okay too. I'm sorry you're frustrated, your horses sound nice and it's cool that you're offering this opportunity.

[Jumphigh83]

After reading through here I now know that it is the parents that feel their little Suzy or Johnny should be paid for a "service".. Boy have times changed. I wonder where I was? It used to be that riding for someone was a privilege not a "job". Well it was inevitable that gratuity would be replaced with greed at some time.

[Tamsin]

Actually, I don't think of it as a "service", I think of it as a wonderful opportunity. With the "skill" these kids are bringing to the table, it's actually an unusually generous opportunity. And I don't *need* someone to exercise and show my horses - they'd be perfectly happy hanging out doing nothing or getting ridden for free at home by my (much more advanced) adult rider...or even the young pro I know, who has more than once asked to ride the jumper without pay, just because he's such a cool horse to ride.

Well then, maybe you're being altruistic, which is nice of you. It seems that your current students lack enthusiasm for extra riding. Presumably they have other interests and commitments, or perhaps their parents do not have the time/resources to have them spend more time at your barn. Or maybe they would love to ride your horses, but they're under pressure to actually earn some money to contribute to their current horse expenses. What's so wrong with this? Surely you realize that your students (and even much more dedicated ones) are unlikely to make a living as professional riders even if they think that is their dream. There's a lot to be said for teenagers who have a variety of interests and work part-time at paying jobs during their high school years.

[Trixie]

Then perhaps they should solicit an actual paying job, instead of asking the person they pay to teach them to pay them to learn.

[meupatdoes]

Then perhaps they should solicit an actual paying job, instead of asking the person they pay to teach them to pay them to learn.

Heaven forfend.

Soon they will be asking their parents to pay them for hacking their own horses, because after all the parents pay the pro to ride the kid's horse so why should the kid have it any different? And showing is 'fun', but hacking is 'work'.

[MLP]

I still can't get past, this is the trainer. I know many people would argue but at my farm, especially with the kids, heck some adults too, if the trainer says move that bale of hay, set up the in and out, get that horse out of the field, wrap this horse, hack this one... They jump! Also being the trainer if you KNOW the kids needs to work off her horse expenses, then yes, offer a working student position with riding be only ONE aspect. I have mucked stalls, unloaded hay trucks, done the turnout and feeding and watering, body clipped, trailered and set up courses ALL for FREE for my trainer when he needed it. Something about being part of the community. I am an adult, only started showing after college have advanced degrees and a good paying job but still when I get to the farm, it's his direction.

[ImTheOwner]

Then perhaps they should solicit an actual paying job, instead of asking the person they pay to teach them to pay them to learn.

An actual paying job - haha! - now that's funny!

[War Admiral]

Then perhaps they should solicit an actual paying job, instead of asking the person they pay to teach them to pay them to learn.

Either that, or we fight fire with fire and do away with the "all juniors are amateurs" rule. ;)

So Mommy wants Junior to get paid? Maybe Junior should be forced to be a pro at the age of 10 while jockeying ponies around. The rule about juniors being amateurs stemmed from exactly what the OP is saying - back in the day, it was considered part of a young rider's education to ride/work a trainer's horses for free.

If you don't want to do it for free, then maybe we should take the amateur privilege away from you. You CANNOT have it both ways.

[JET11]

pegasus has it right. Juniors should not be paid. If a professional is asking them to ride a horse, the entries are already being paid. If the pro or the owner wants to give a gift, that is fine. Someone give an example of somebody you think should get paid.

[VarsityHero4]

OR you could realize that it costs a heck of a lot more to be competitive at the top shows these days (thanks to these trainers that are complaining about having to pay for rides) and some parents aren't as willing to foot all the bills. You can't blame a junior for trying to make a little extra money to support their passion rather than getting a "real" job that would take away barn time. Every penny I got paid as a junior went to my parents. Did it cost you $2,000+ to have boarding and training for ONE horse when you were a kid? You guys slamming juniors for asking for some money are the ones that need to come to terms with reality. Things cost more these days and (atleast in my experience) parents want their kids to pay for the things they want. That's like saying a teenager should have to pay for all of their living expenses just because they have a part time job. It's not like their getting paid nearly what trainers get paid for rides, in my case it was $5 per horse. $50 a week doesn't exactly constitute a junior status restriction in my book.

[Vandy]

It's not like their getting paid nearly what trainers get paid for rides, in my case it was $5 per horse. $50 a week doesn't exactly constitute a junior status restriction in my book.Just wait til you age out of the juniors if you think that's not fair! For example, I have an adult amateur, "Jane", who cleans stalls for me on the weekends for some extra cash or a reduction on her horse's board. If Jane has some free time and wants to hack one of my horses - without pay, mind you - that right there is a violation of the amateur rules. It would also still be a violation of the amateur rules if Jane only charged 25 cents per ride in a market where the average professional charged $50.

I wonder about things like the 16-year-old kid whose mom called to tell the OP that unloading hay is "too hard" for her teenage daughter...what happens when this kid gets her first "real" job? Is her mom going to call in to get her excused from work when it's harder than she'd like? If my mom had *ever* called my boss/trainer when I was a teenager to complain that any component of my *unpaid* working student job was "too hard", I think he'd still be laughing now, 20 years later :lol:

[Vandy]

OR you could realize that it costs a heck of a lot more to be competitive at the top shows these days (thanks to these trainers that are complaining about having to pay for rides) and some parents aren't as willing to foot all the bills.Precisely the reason these kids and their parents should be absolutely *thrilled* that someone else is offering them a nice horse to with no purchase price or accompanying board/farrier/vet/training/showing bills - basically offering them what you described above FOR FREE.

If these kids really want to contribute financially to their riding expenses, something like braiding would be a much more realistic endeavor than hoping to be paid to have lessons on nice horses or being paid to show at the 3' level.

[FarnleyGarnet]

Folks, if you asked a young guy with lots of painting experience to paint your house would you expect him to do it for free and feel privileged to do the job? No? Then why expect girls to ride your horses for free?

SERIOUSLY? :lol: While I agreed with portions of your post and I'm sure my parents felt very similar to how you feel I just can't agree on this. I'm sorry but riding a nice horse is NOT the same as painting someone's house!

You'd pay someone to paint your house if you A. Posess the skill but lack the time to do it yourself or B. Can't do it better than a professional could. Neither of these apply to the OP.

If a young guy down the street said "you know, I want to be a house painter when I grow up" and you decided to help him out said "gee Timmy, I've got a whole garage of house painting supplies, would you like to practice house painting with them?" Would you actually fork over the money when Timmy said, "I suppose I could put your supplies to good use, but it's going to cost you $25 a day." I guess so when you consider how valuable little Timmy's time is. Afterall, the time he spends practicing to be a professional painter with your paint supplies could be time he spent doing something more productive like delivering newspapers. Plus he's doing you a favor by letting your paint supplies see the light of day again. :yes:

If you really want to do the whole paint analogy, the OP's horse is much more like the painting supplies. They don't need to be used, but the OP wouldn't mind granting access to her supplies (nice horses) to a responsible person who is looking to improve their skills (junior riders).

Maybe when I was 16 and my mom asked me if I wanted to borrow the car to go to the barn I should have demanded she pay me. Afterall, I was a skilled driver... I aced my drivers test! Plus I was doing my mom a favor, if I hadn't been driving the car it would have been just sitting in the driveway, and we all know cars need to be driven regularly to be properly maintained! Not to mention it was a minivan (gasp!) and as a 16 year old I should have been paid to be seen in something as ugly as that when my other option was to catch a ride in my friend's BMW.

No doubt I just went off the deep end but this is ridiculous!

[meupatdoes]

OR you could realize that it costs a heck of a lot more to be competitive at the top shows these days (thanks to these trainers that are complaining about having to pay for rides) and some parents aren't as willing to foot all the bills. You can't blame a junior for trying to make a little extra money to support their passion rather than getting a "real" job that would take away barn time. Every penny I got paid as a junior went to my parents. Did it cost you $2,000+ to have boarding and training for ONE horse when you were a kid? You guys slamming juniors for asking for some money are the ones that need to come to terms with reality. Things cost more these days and (atleast in my experience) parents want their kids to pay for the things they want. That's like saying a teenager should have to pay for all of their living expenses just because they have a part time job. It's not like their getting paid nearly what trainers get paid for rides, in my case it was $5 per horse. $50 a week doesn't exactly constitute a junior status restriction in my book.

One shift (ONE) at Applebee's will make you more than $50 in far less time.

From your post I am deducing that you pay/paid roughly 10% of your horse's board and training expenses as a junior, since you seem to be saying that you opted to ride ten horses a week at five bucks a pop rather than getting a real job that would take away barn time and make a more appreciable dent in the bills.

Your parents apparently were obligated to pay the remaining 90% because it would be unreasonable to expect you to pay all of the expenses off of your part time job.

My confustion from your analogy stems from the fact that a horse is not a living expense. Parents are obliged to keep you clothed, fed, and under a roof.
To keep you in horses? Not so much. Mine felt well within their rights to say that I would have 0% of a horse until I paid 100% of its bills. And I had plenty of part time jobs that outpaid riding 10 horses a week.

90% of $2,000+ every month is more than many EDUCATED adults make who work FULL TIME and don't have a prayer of owning a horse, but you are sitting here saying how you needed to be paid because you didn't want to take away too much barn time and you had to help your parents out, you know, at least a smidgen.
You are/were already being paid more than many working adults by virtue of your horse's existence in your life. That's the reality that needs to be come to terms with here.

[Trixie]

OR you could realize that it costs a heck of a lot more to be competitive at the top shows these days (thanks to these trainers that are complaining about having to pay for rides)

And thanks to the show fees and rising costs in general. I don't understand why you're blaming the trainers for inflation when it's just as much the fault of increased taxes, increased gas prices, increased insurance costs, increased hay and grain costs, etc. BTW, salaries have gone up, too.

and some parents aren't as willing to foot all the bills.

So? You want this luxury? Get a job to pay the bills. Parents are not required to pay for your riding, if they do, it's another gift.

You can't blame a junior for trying to make a little extra money to support their passion rather than getting a "real" job that would take away barn time.

I have a "real job" that takes away from my barn time: and guess what, it PAYS FOR MY BARN TIME. Welcome to the real world. You'll always earn more money out of the horse world. One table waiting shift a week earns you more than a week's worth of "helping out" at a barn for a few hours.

You guys slamming juniors for asking for some money are the ones that need to come to terms with reality.

No, we aren't. We're the ones that KNOW what it costs to do this sport. By all means, tell me how it's "reality" for someone to spend thousands in feed, vet bills, and entry fees, and devote their time to you, for NOTHING in return? And they should pay you on top of that? Again, these are not professional riders we are talking about, these are INEXPERIENCED CHILDREN. Really. I'd love to live in your version of "reality."

Things cost more these days and (atleast in my experience) parents want their kids to pay for the things they want.

Again. Welcome to the real world. This is how it is. If you WANT something, you PAY FOR IT. If you want an education, you pay for it. This is an education.

[ef80]

Did it cost you $2,000+ to have boarding and training for ONE horse when you were a kid? You guys slamming juniors for asking for some money are the ones that need to come to terms with reality. Things cost more these days and (atleast in my experience) parents want their kids to pay for the things they want. That's like saying a teenager should have to pay for all of their living expenses just because they have a part time job. It's not like their getting paid nearly what trainers get paid for rides, in my case it was $5 per horse. $50 a week doesn't exactly constitute a junior status restriction in my book.

Actually, yes. I'm not THAT old, but plenty of us have been paying out the nose for horse expenses for years and years. In college, my monthly living expenses (rent, power, phone, etc) were half of what my monthly horse expenses were. :)

While I agree that $50 bucks a weeks is not a living wage and theoretically shouldn't make a Junior a professional, but if ANY amount of money or discounts for riding/barn-work disqualifies an adult from amateur status, it is only appropriate that we extend and apply the same rules to Juniors.

[slp]

Haalter, from a parent’s point of view, I find your attitude a bit annoying. Riding is an especially expensive skill to acquire. If the juniors in question are having success at the local 3’ level and they have their own horses, this suggests that thousands of $$$ have been spent on their riding educations. Also their parents have spent countless hours driving them to the barn and shows and waiting countless more hours to bring them home. If you want them to ride your very nice horses, I assume that you consider them to be decent riders. Yet you feel that these relatively skilled young people should eagerly offer their time and skills for free. I could understand this if you simply wanted them to catch ride at shows they were already attending, but it sounds like you want much more time than this.
Well, their time isn’t free. Someone is paying for it, presumably their parents who you have indicated are not wealthy.


Did you miss the part where the OP said that she is these kids TRAINER? I know that I would, as a parent, jump all OVER the opportunity for my kid to get extra rides with her trainer for FREE! That is a huge cost savings to me, let alone the extra experience that it would get my kid!
So you feel that it is fine to spend those thousands of $$$ on your kids riding lessons, but then when they are given the opportunity for more FREE rides and FREE lessons with your trainer that you would say no, not unless they get paid? :confused: :confused:

[pegasus3233]

...tell her that "she wasn't spending enough" on me for my riding. That was probably one of the most disgusting things I had heard. Especially when my budget is high 5 figures. I feel very fortunate, and know there are sacrifices made for me. I guess it would be great to have unlimited funds...but, it's just not that way. Oh well. Not a big deal. The trainer also told her that it's not fair for me to have to work so hard. That is MY CHOICE. In order for me to have 2 rides (which was so important for me to become noticed-ha!) it's the ONLY way I can afford to have them. Plus, I want to learn and you learn a lot by doing or being there. BUT on top of all, I ENJOY WORKING around the barn and the horses. It's part of it, and I LOVE it.

A lot of my friends are the top "paid" riders that you are talking about. Do they deserve it. Sure,... it doesn't bother me. I have however seen the "attitude" that has been talked about in this discussion. And, honestly, I know I'll never be that. Very few of my friends want to become professionals. They want to take riding as far as they can and that's it. It's something they LOVE, but it's NOT their passion.

Food for thought...my horse budget is more than a teacher in my school makes in a year!!! Made me grow up quickly and deal with reality when I became so involved with the budget.

[meupatdoes]

I have a "real job" that takes away from my barn time: and guess what, it PAYS FOR MY BARN TIME.

This sentence is so full of win.

And please. Let's have more teenagers who drive a car they most likely did not pay for and ride a horse they most likely did not pay for and live in a house they certainly did not pay for who could not possibly get a job that takes away from barn time ask if anyone here knows what it's like to pay thousands of dollars in horse bills a month.

I am so glad that my kids in college have four legs a piece.

[LookinSouth]

the parents that feel their little Suzy or Johnny should be paid for a "service".. Boy have times changed. .

Yep. I agree 100%:yes:

[Tamsin]

This thread started because the OP asked juniors who have had success at the local 3’ level to ride her horses. In my experience, it takes most kids years of lessons to perform at this level, and even local competitors can be very fine riders. It now seems that we are talking about “little Suzy” and “INEXPERIENCED CHILDREN” as though the riders have no skills whatsoever and the OP is a saint for offering them free lessons. Obviously I don’t think small, inexperienced children should be paid to ride. However, I do believe that if an older teenager is in demand as a rider because of their skills—even if they only ride locally—they deserve to be paid for their time. If you don’t want to pay a teenager to ride, that is fine, but there is no need to heap insults upon them if they don’t want to ride your horse for free. As far as losing amateur status, this is irrelevant for many teens. As adults, most will never have the money to have an amateur career in the rated shows.

I’m surprised to hear all of the scorn expressed about teenagers getting “real” jobs. All of the teenagers I know have part-time paying jobs and also work very hard at school. At the college where I teach, approximately 100% of the students come in with work experience as well as a long list of volunteer and extracurricular activities. They have also completed a high school curriculum vastly more demanding than the one I completed some decades ago. I’m sure there are lazy teens, but a great many work very hard.

Some posters seem to think that juniors should enthusiastically work for free if it has anything to do with horses. At the same time, kids should have real jobs so that they pay their own expenses and learn the value of money. No one can be in two places at once and volunteering long hours at the barn makes it very difficult to hold down a paying job elsewhere.

[LetsChat]

This thread started because the OP asked juniors who have had success at the local 3’ level to ride her horses. In my experience, it takes most kids years of lessons to perform at this level, and even local competitors can be very fine riders. It now seems that we are talking about “little Suzy” and “INEXPERIENCED CHILDREN” as though the riders have no skills whatsoever and the OP is a saint for offering them free lessons. Obviously I don’t think small, inexperienced children should be paid to ride. However, I do believe that if an older teenager is in demand as a rider because of their skills—even if they only ride locally—they deserve to be paid for their time. If you don’t want to pay a teenager to ride, that is fine, but there is no need to heap insults upon them if they don’t want to ride your horse for free. As far as losing amateur status, this is irrelevant for many teens. As adults, most will never have the money to have an amateur career in the rated shows.

I’m surprised to hear all of the scorn expressed about teenagers getting “real” jobs. All of the teenagers I know have part-time paying jobs and also work very hard at school. At the college where I teach, approximately 100% of the students come in with work experience as well as a long list of volunteer and extracurricular activities. They have also completed a high school curriculum vastly more demanding than the one I completed some decades ago. I’m sure there are lazy teens, but a great many work very hard.

Some posters seem to think that juniors should enthusiastically work for free if it has anything to do with horses. At the same time, kids should have real jobs so that they pay their own expenses and learn the value of money. No one can be in two places at once and volunteering long hours at the barn makes it very difficult to hold down a paying job elsewhere.

The OP is their TRAINER.... She isn't just asking random kids, these are her students. Kinda puts a whole different spin on this, no. If my trainer offered me free lessons on anything, my horses or clients, I would take them.... I don't get it, you are acting like she was at the supermarket and stopped some random kid.... They are STUDENTS, they should be honored. Am I that old that kids don't "worship" / respect their trainers... I am just floored at these responses.

[Bent Hickory]

If my trainer offered me free lessons on anything, my horses or clients, I would take them....

Where did the OP say she was offering "free lessons"?

[meupatdoes]

The OP is their TRAINER.... She isn't just asking random kids, these are her students. Kinda puts a whole different spin on this, no. If my trainer offered me free lessons on anything, my horses or clients, I would take them.... I don't get it, you are acting like she was at the supermarket and stopped some random kid.... They are STUDENTS, they should be honored. Am I that old that kids don't "worship" / respect their trainers... I am just floored at these responses.

Seriously.
Apparently the trainer should pay the students to take lessons on her horses.

Okey dokey.

[equineartworks]

My daughter isn't to that level yet but I'll tell you what...if she she were she would clean your barn night and day for a year, polish your boots, walk your dogs and worship you every moment for the rest of your life.

That's a dream come true and an show of respect to you by the owner, I couldn't imagine expecting to be paid!

[Trixie]

First off, I am not expecting a "junior professional" who just got back from showing multiple rides at indoors to pay the show bills for my local quality horses. I'm talking about local juniors getting to hack them, have lessons on them (lessons they don't have to pay for, but they're not getting paid for taking them either) and the horses' show expenses are paid by me, at shows where these kids are already showing their own horses. Sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me, and apparently to most of the folks replying to this thread as well.

Right here. Lessons that they do not have to pay for. Ie, free lessons. From the trainer they're already paying to train them, I'm assuming.

However, I do believe that if an older teenager is in demand as a rider because of their skills—even if they only ride locally—they deserve to be paid for their time.

We've already said there's a difference between being the upper echelon of a junior rider who can contribute something to the value of the horse and someone who needs the horse's expertise to move up. We're not talking about a teenager who is "in demand as a rider" - we're talking about riders who need the riding miles in order to move up.

[LetsChat]

Seriously.
Apparently the trainer should pay the students to take lessons on her horses.

Okey dokey.

What do you mean, that is what OP said. She is their trainer, they are her students, she is offering them free rides on her own horses.... Am I missing something - please go back and read and tell me if the story is different?????

[LetsChat]

Actually, I'd like to develop these young riders out of kindness as well as a sense of business: their parents are paying me to board these kids' own horses, take lessons and show with me. Franklly, the kids' families do not have the budget to buy horses as nice as the ones I'm offering. I've had similar deals with other kids and other horses in the past; those kids have since aged out and moved on to college, etc and I thought I'd offer some younger, less experienced kids the same opportunity. Incidentally, I did not pay these other juniors to ride, and they appreciated the experience. And ironically, while I didn't pay these juniors, the mileage and the visibility they got showing mine led one to get some paid riding gigs at other farms, and she is now a full-time professional.



Actually, both horses are fit, ready to show, and while they may not be "special" at the top level, both are very nice horses who have won at 3' and 3'6" at rated shows this year. And I'm not "some woman" at their barn - I'm the trainer they have chosen to ride with. I think the scenario you are describing is quite different than what I'm talking about.


Oh, and neither horse is for sale. One may be someday, but the other will be mine for life.

Re-read - she is actually responding to you who are asking me.... I am so confused with ya'll. I am just saying if my trainer offered me a free ride on their horse, my horse, a new horse - I WOULD NOT ASKED TO BE PAID. I am not making this up - just responding to what OP stated.... Don't put words in my mouth!

[LetsChat]

Where did the OP say she was offering "free lessons"?

Bent - responding to you she stated SHE IS THE TRAINER - Do you not read!

[Little Valkyrie]

This thread started because the OP asked juniors who have had success at the local 3’ level to ride her horses. In my experience, it takes most kids years of lessons to perform at this level, and even local competitors can be very fine riders. It now seems that we are talking about “little Suzy” and “INEXPERIENCED CHILDREN” as though the riders have no skills whatsoever and the OP is a saint for offering them free lessons. Obviously I don’t think small, inexperienced children should be paid to ride. However, I do believe that if an older teenager is in demand as a rider because of their skills—even if they only ride locally—they deserve to be paid for their time. If you don’t want to pay a teenager to ride, that is fine, but there is no need to heap insults upon them if they don’t want to ride your horse for free. As far as losing amateur status, this is irrelevant for many teens. As adults, most will never have the money to have an amateur career in the rated shows.

I’m surprised to hear all of the scorn expressed about teenagers getting “real” jobs. All of the teenagers I know have part-time paying jobs and also work very hard at school. At the college where I teach, approximately 100% of the students come in with work experience as well as a long list of volunteer and extracurricular activities. They have also completed a high school curriculum vastly more demanding than the one I completed some decades ago. I’m sure there are lazy teens, but a great many work very hard.

Some posters seem to think that juniors should enthusiastically work for free if it has anything to do with horses. At the same time, kids should have real jobs so that they pay their own expenses and learn the value of money. No one can be in two places at once and volunteering long hours at the barn makes it very difficult to hold down a paying job elsewhere.

This is kind of where I fit...I don't really have time for a "real job" because I'm trying to keep my horses fit and go to school and keep my home barn in some sense of order. However, in the summer and breaks when I have more time, I am asked to hack horses, condition, or school lightly/exercise in between professional rides for weekenders or people who don't ride much. I'm a C-3 going on B in Pony Club, have competed with a fair amount of success and hunted quite extensively, and riding is pretty much my job, so in certain situations I would like to be paid (although technically this is my last year as a junior).
However, this being said, If I was given the chance to ride a horse nicer than my own or one that my trainer and I feel would help my riding, I would NEVER ask to be paid. Basically, if it benefits the owner, I would like to be paid, but if it benefits me (riding wise) I certainly do not expect to get paid. After all, a good horse can teach you a lot more in one setting than a lot of lessons!

[Serah]

JUNIORS GETTING PAID?! Seriously, I don't care if you just kicked a$$ at indoors and won every big eq medal out there... You're a junior, if someone asks you to ride their horse and pay for the lessons, class entries etc, YOU SHOULD BE FLATTERED!!!!!!!!!!!! NOT handing them a bill!

I think that the majority of these juniors would be more than happy to pick up a catch ride, I guess I could be wrong... Could someone tell me if I am?? But if you are looking to be a successful junior, Ring time is key, and the more opportunities you have to show, the more opportunities you have to WIN and the more you win, the better your name! You don't see people sending Juniors a bill for allowing them to win on their horses, which may or may not result in sponsorships or all sorts of success in the future.

I can't believe there are even two sides to this argument... They are getting paid, they're getting paid in RING TIME and EXPOSURE and EXPERIENCE... things that are VERRRRRY expensive in this sport!!!!!!!!!!!

[Whisper]

Even if it benefits the owner, there are a lot of people who love to ride enough that they can find someone who wants to do it for free. I wouldn't pay anyone, Junior or not, who doesn't have insurance and good qualifications. :D

I am certainly not the best rider out there, but have horses at two different barns that I get to ride for free on the weekends. None of them are high-level show horses. They primarily do trails, and pleasure riding in the arena. They're fun, and it's great getting some extra ride time in! I've had several other opportunities to ride for free in the past, when someone was pregnant, or out of town, or some such. I do help out a bit with cleaning paddocks, feeding, etc. as needed, but I can't claim to be "working for rides" when I ride for 2 or 3 hours and work for 15-30 minutes! One of them also lets some youngsters come out and ride in a little horsemanship session, and doesn't charge anything for it. She's a vet, and her insurance doesn't allow any commercial activity on her property. When I first started riding there, about 2 years ago, she had broken her collarbone, and actually *DID* need someone to ride the horses and keep them fit. I'm not a good enough rider that I could justify asking for money, and still felt she was doing me a favor by letting me ride.

The deal the OP is offering is incredible, and I'm surprised none of her students has gone for it. I've seen some pretty greedy people posting about similar deals, wanting to be reimbursed for gas money, show clothes, etc.

If you get out and ride the horses that are still green, and aren't fancy, you're more likely to be offered better horses. "He who is faithful in little will be faithful in much." ;)

[seeuatx]

Wouldn't free lessons be considered renumeration (ie payment). Think 2 rides per lesson usually comes out to 20 bucks a ride (if lessons are $40). I sure as heck don't complain about this deal for the ride on a very nice horse, and I am considered a pro (the grand total of 2 up-down lessons a week that I teach, so renumeration for riding is not the deciding factor for me). It's about the experience, and it's a free lesson. :yes:

I would do one of two things (and I mean these only half seriously because I'm in a strange mood today)... A) get pissed at entitled brats and yank the deal from under them and give it to a deserving kid (one who maybe doesn't have the advantages these ones do). If A is not an option, then B) Play with their brains. Offer 40 bucks for 2 rides a week, but they have to pay for a lesson on that horse at least once a week (ie 40 bucks)... see if they catch on :winkgrin:

[meupatdoes]

"Apparently the trainer should pay the students to take lessons on her horses." is not what the OP said. The OP is willing to let the juniors ride the horses for free, which is already a generous offer, but is understandably surprised that the juniors expected to be PAID for the opportunity to ride their trainer's horses. I do not think the OP thinks she should pay her students to take lessons from her.

She is their trainer, they are her students, she is offering them free rides on her own horses.... Am I missing something - please go back and read and tell me if the story is different?????

Yes, that is what the OP said. Some people in this thread seem to think that in ADDITION to this, the juniors should get paid for the time they "exercise" the trainer's horses for her, because this crazy trainer lady is just expecting these kids to jump at the chance to ride her horses for free.

Which point of view I was summarizing in disbelief.

(Btw, I was agreeing with you.)

[StockyCrosses]

I'd love to ride someones horse for free! But I'm also not a junior :) but if this was back when I was a junior, I'd probably still feel the same way. I paid $*** to ride the easiest going lesson horse at a barn and recieve lessons. If I could get the same, minus coughing up $***, I'd be flattered and I'd probably put my all into my riding during these lessons.

When I was a junior (never showed higher than locals) I rode my trainers horse and recieved free lessons because she had a 'feeling' about my riding. Unfortunately I grew up, moved out, and dropped college. I finally have my own horse again, but I tell you I'd definately jump at the chance to ride a seasoned show horse, even if I had to pay up.

Maybe these juniors feel like it's a chore, not a passion or privledge? (As mentioned before.)

I think I'm going to go lose some weight and look up my old trainer :)

[slp]

This thread started because the OP asked juniors who have had success at the local 3’ level to ride her horses. In my experience, it takes most kids years of lessons to perform at this level, and even local competitors can be very fine riders. It now seems that we are talking about “little Suzy” and “INEXPERIENCED CHILDREN” as though the riders have no skills whatsoever and the OP is a saint for offering them free lessons. Obviously I don’t think small, inexperienced children should be paid to ride. However, I do believe that if an older teenager is in demand as a rider because of their skills—even if they only ride locally—they deserve to be paid for their time.


If they ever want to have success at anything bigger than the 3' locals, then they should take advantage of every opportunity that is presented to them to get more experience. I don't know of any 3' rider that is "in demand" to ride other peoples horses. :rolleyes:

[JET11]

Serah is right on target. Little Valkyrie you sound very self-serving. So if the horse is better than yours, you don't have to get paid. But if it is not better than your horse, then you do want to get paid. How nice of you. And how selfish of you. All you care about is if it will benefit you. Part of the problem is some of these "Hotshot" Juniors think they are better than most professionals. And the minute they leave the junior ranks and become pros they walk around with their nose up in the air like their shit doesn't stink. I would still like somebody to name Juniors that they think should be paid.

[Texan By The Grace Of God]

Would I pay Sam Schaefer to ride my horse? Yupp! and probably just as much as I would a pro because she just rides that darn good. I don't see anything wrong with that at all.

[Texan By The Grace Of God]

Serah is right on target. Little Valkyrie you sound very self-serving. So if the horse is better than yours, you don't have to get paid. But if it is not better than your horse, then you do want to get paid. How nice of you. And how selfish of you. All you care about is if it will benefit you. Part of the problem is some of these "Hotshot" Juniors think they are better than most professionals. And the minute they leave the junior ranks and become pros they walk around with their nose up in the air like their shit doesn't stink. I would still like somebody to name Juniors that they think should be paid.

To answer your question, I would pay Sam Schaefer to ride my horse just as much as I would pay a professional.

[Texan By The Grace Of God]

This thread started because the OP asked juniors who have had success at the local 3’ level to ride her horses. In my experience, it takes most kids years of lessons to perform at this level, and even local competitors can be very fine riders. It now seems that we are talking about “little Suzy” and “INEXPERIENCED CHILDREN” as though the riders have no skills whatsoever and the OP is a saint for offering them free lessons. Obviously I don’t think small, inexperienced children should be paid to ride. However, I do believe that if an older teenager is in demand as a rider because of their skills—even if they only ride locally—they deserve to be paid for their time. If you don’t want to pay a teenager to ride, that is fine, but there is no need to heap insults upon them if they don’t want to ride your horse for free. As far as losing amateur status, this is irrelevant for many teens. As adults, most will never have the money to have an amateur career in the rated shows.

I’m surprised to hear all of the scorn expressed about teenagers getting “real” jobs. All of the teenagers I know have part-time paying jobs and also work very hard at school. At the college where I teach, approximately 100% of the students come in with work experience as well as a long list of volunteer and extracurricular activities. They have also completed a high school curriculum vastly more demanding than the one I completed some decades ago. I’m sure there are lazy teens, but a great many work very hard.

Some posters seem to think that juniors should enthusiastically work for free if it has anything to do with horses. At the same time, kids should have real jobs so that they pay their own expenses and learn the value of money. No one can be in two places at once and volunteering long hours at the barn makes it very difficult to hold down a paying job elsewhere.


Years of lessons to perform at the 3' level? The LOCAL level at that? I think you might need a new trainer...

[justathought]

I completely agree with posters who have said that you pay juniors, or any one else, when you are asking them to do a service for you that will take time and skill. ...

Haalter, from a parent’s point of view, I find your attitude a bit annoying. Riding is an especially expensive skill to acquire. If the juniors in question are having success at the local 3’ level and they have their own horses, this suggests that thousands of $$$ have been spent on their riding educations. Also their parents have spent countless hours driving them to the barn and shows and waiting countless more hours to bring them home. If you want them to ride your very nice horses, I assume that you consider them to be decent riders. Yet you feel that these relatively skilled young people should eagerly offer their time and skills for free. I could understand this if you simply wanted them to catch ride at shows they were already attending, but it sounds like you want much more time than this.

Well, their time isn’t free. Someone is paying for it, presumably their parents who you have indicated are not wealthy. Teenagers do in fact get paid for most jobs that they do outside the horse world. My younger teenager covers many of her own expenses since people are eager to pay her $8-10/hour to babysit. She earns even more for pet sitting and coaching little kids soccer in the summer and she’s not even an especially good player.

On the other hand, my older daughter, the horsewoman, earned very little throughout her high school years. This was not from laziness. On the contrary, she worked her butt off being just the girl you say you want: eager to ride anything for free and do anything she was asked around the barn, including two summers as a working student (aka, a barn slave). She’s a great rider and people were happy for her help with their horses. But no one offered to pay her. So her Dad and I had to pick up all of her horse-related and other expenses. We paid for her time at the barn because the BO, like many other on this board, didn’t have the fairness and sense of responsibility to pay for her services themselves.

Folks, if you asked a young guy with lots of painting experience to paint your house would you expect him to do it for free and feel privileged to do the job? No? Then why expect girls to ride your horses for free?

Boy, I am a parent and couldn't disagree more. Simply said, juniors are NOT professionals - they are still in the learning years and EVERY SINGLE TIME they ride they are benefiting - more experience, more ring time, more exposure. And, this applies to the very top juniors as well as those who ride only locally. BTW if your child does not want the ride without being paid, there are tons of juniors who would die for the opportunity, even if that opportunity was simply to hack the horse when the owner is unavailable. My daughter and her friends, who have just aged out, rode whenever they were offerred a ride and were honored to be asked (being paid for receiving a priviledge was not even a though).. In addition, they made sure the horse was perfectly groomed, washed if necessary, wrapped and they called the owner with a report on the ride. PAID - yeah maybe when they are old enough to sign a contract and be a professional.

Now, if you are looking for a junior to show your horse, do I think that you should expect to pay the entry fee, absolutely..... no question. There is no reason that a junior should come out of pocket when they are asked to show a horse, BUT that is not being paid.

And, for the juniors that think they should be paid, well my horses (and I hope the horses owned by others) will go to those juniors who understand it is to their benefit to ride as much as possible - and there are plenty juniors like that - talented, hungry and appreciative.

[Molly99]

I think you also need to look at the success of said rider against what is at the barn. Are the best, or close to it, that the barn has to offer? Then yes, they should be paid. Would I pay them the same as a BNR, no, but if they are the best I had access to I would not have a problem with paying them, nor do I think it is the kid that deems they need paid.

When I was a junior, I wasn't the best on a National level, but I was one of the best options on the local level and definatly at the barn.

My trainer told the people that wanted me to school their horses that I was paid X a ride. She didn't want them to abuse me riding their horses, nor did she want them to think they didn't need to pay for training on their horses. Pay was equal to the ability of the rider.

Was I improving the horse for them? Then I was paid. Was I improving myself only (I think every ride makes you better), then I wasn't paid.

Did we work some deals, of course. I wanted to ride, but I also had to pay some of my bills.

[justathought]

Molly99,

I am glad that it worked for you to be paid...

But as a parent - of a kid that did go to national finals and was extremely successful locally - I do not believe that a junior, any junior should be paid....

To me, not a question of whether the horse is benefiting, (maybe yes, maybe not - juniors are not professionals with an established set of goals for each particular horse they ride nor a program form where the horse is going and what is needed for their development) its a question of definition. Juniors simply are not professionals.

Someone earlier in this thread asked if you wanted someone to paint your house would you not pay a teenage. For me the answer is clear, NO - I would not pay a teenager, but then, I also wouldn't want the risk that goes with them painting my house.

Similarly, if a junior is riding my horse, it is happening under the supervision of a trainer - who is a professional - either directly or through their barn. With all the appropriate releases signed by parents and in place and a trainer who knows the horse and the kid.

That's just me

[Tamsin]

If they ever want to have success at anything bigger than the 3' locals, then they should take advantage of every opportunity that is presented to them to get more experience. I don't know of any 3' rider that is "in demand" to ride other peoples horses. :rolleyes:

Trust me, a really good 3' level junior rider can be
very much in demand. They are in demand to back greenies, and they are
in demand to ride spooky, difficult horses that middle-aged or older
riders don't want to take a chance on. They are in demand to school
evil ponies at shows so that the little 8 or 9 year old owners have a
chance of doing ok in a class. They are in demand to help
recondition injured horses (30 minutes of walking, six minutes of
trotting every day for weeks). In short, they are in demand for
numerous riding tasks that benefit trainers and owners, but offer
little chance for personal glory. Yes, it's all experience, but most
paying jobs also provide valuable experience.

However, in the particular case being discussed here, it seems that
the OP, who runs a small, local barn, wants to provide free lessons
on her own very nice horses. She also wants to pay show expenses for
the not-very-skilled juniors in her barn. And she wants to do this for no personal gain other than the satisfaction of helping her students improve. In my experience, this offer is so rare as to be unheard of, but maybe I've just been at the wrong barns. If this is truly the situation then, as I said before she is being very nice, she shouldn't have to pay the juniors, and it is
indeed odd that she has no takers at her barn.

[superpony123]

more words from another junior:

i never expect to be paid. I would love to ride someone elses horse! I am always thanking them tons when i get to. Just yesterday, a lady who is friends with my trainer and rides at the barn next door brought a sale horse over, a 4 y/o mare, for me to ride since my pony has been on rest for an injury. I didn't even know, i just showed up at the barn for work and trainer says, hey you can ride this horse! it's a win win situation: the horse gets exposure at my barn (horse is for sale) and i get to ride the horse (:D) i'm so glad i did, this horse was AMAZING!! i wish i could afford her (im fairly certain that i cant--she was so nice! i didnt bother asking how much, lol.) but i was so happy and mustve thanked the owner a bunch of times, she's always so nice! and what made me even happier is that she said i looked great on the horse, which is huge for me because i dont think i'm an amazing rider or anything, i do okay at A shows and all, sure, but i'm more of a pony kid and i havent ridden a big horse (this mare was a 16.2 hh warmblood) in god knows how long, and considering i actually rode her nicely, i was all YAYYYYY inside :) but its nice to hear it! (and im very excited because the lady suggested that i take a lesson on the mare on monday---woohoo!!)

i can understand certain kids getting paid to ride, but if i was going to pay someone to ride, they had better be someone who wins at indoors and is averaging 5+ horses/ponies per division! like, some of the famous pony jocks that ride something like 20 ponies at pony finals. but if it was an average person like myself? either be thankful for the ride, or don't take the ride and go along your merry way! you should never EXPECT the provider of the horse to hand you some cash!

[Serah]

Would I pay Sam Schaefer to ride my horse? Yupp! and probably just as much as I would a pro because she just rides that darn good. I don't see anything wrong with that at all.

And I'm sure that some of that talent can be attributed to the experiences from picking up extra rides and riding different kinds of horses, and learning how to catch rides and be successful.. It takes a lot of practice and experience to be able to get on a strange horse and put down a nice trip. You don't get that experience from riding one horse all the time.

So she owes part of her talent to the people who have provided her with many different horses to ride and learn on. In essence, her catch rides have helped make her the rider she is....

You shouldn't get paid for that.

[Vkent]

Speaking as a young 20 something ... Sometimes you cant AFFORD to ride for free. Personally it depends on my situation at the time. Would I love to ride every horse I can get on and ride 20 horses a day? Hell yes. However, if I can only get, lets say, 4 horses done a day before I lose light and get all the barn chores done, then unfortunately the ones I'm getting paid to ride HAVE to take a priority because I can't afford to lose the money.

Would I love to show your horse for free? Any given day, doesn't matter who/what it is and what I'm doing. Can I afford the entry fees though? No. Can I afford to take an entire day off work? Sometimes. Would I gladly hunt your horse for free 6 days a week? Of course, can I afford to cap that many times? No. Can I afford even one cap on a horse that isn't mine? Nopers!

So you need to understand that while most of us appreciate the opportunities and generosity, we cant always afford to accept it. That isn't to say I wont go out of my way to get on a SERIOUS learning opportunity, but sometimes after riding X amount of horses a day, on top of school/classes, studying, making some food, and oh, cleaning the apartment, there just isnt always a way to get on a free ride.

On the flip side, if I didn't have to work quite as much, or if I had the time and energy, would I expect to get paid? Of course not.

Every situation is different.

[LetsChat]

"Apparently the trainer should pay the students to take lessons on her horses." is not what the OP said. The OP is willing to let the juniors ride the horses for free, which is already a generous offer, but is understandably surprised that the juniors expected to be PAID for the opportunity to ride their trainer's horses. I do not think the OP thinks she should pay her students to take lessons from her.



Yes, that is what the OP said. Some people in this thread seem to think that in ADDITION to this, the juniors should get paid for the time they "exercise" the trainer's horses for her, because this crazy trainer lady is just expecting these kids to jump at the chance to ride her horses for free.

Which point of view I was summarizing in disbelief.

(Btw, I was agreeing with you.)

Sorry about that one, I realized you were only after going back and reading your other posts and seeing what point of view you were on. I think the "seriously" in the first line took me. I just don't get it though, if my trainer told me it would be good to sit on any horse, even to just hack in the field, I would do it, I wouldn't ask for any money. I mean think about it, you pay this person on a regular basis for the opinion, experience, judgement - however you want to phrase it, why would you challenge or question or push back on anything they said. I still can't get past that, I guess I just have a different perspective about my trainer. And yeah, horses are expensive and fragile so getting a bunch of free rides, ok maybe isn't cash in your pocket but it sure is saving you a hell of a lot of money in board, shoes, vet and all the other incidentals, I have multiple horses - it adds up quick!

[LetsChat]

Trust me, a really good 3' level junior rider can be
very much in demand. They are in demand to back greenies, and they are
in demand to ride spooky, difficult horses that middle-aged or older
riders don't want to take a chance on. They are in demand to school
evil ponies at shows so that the little 8 or 9 year old owners have a
chance of doing ok in a class. They are in demand to help
recondition injured horses (30 minutes of walking, six minutes of
trotting every day for weeks). In short, they are in demand for
numerous riding tasks that benefit trainers and owners, but offer
little chance for personal glory. Yes, it's all experience, but most
paying jobs also provide valuable experience.

However, in the particular case being discussed here, it seems that
the OP, who runs a small, local barn, wants to provide free lessons
on her own very nice horses. She also wants to pay show expenses for
the not-very-skilled juniors in her barn. And she wants to do this for no personal gain other than the satisfaction of helping her students improve. In my experience, this offer is so rare as to be unheard of, but maybe I've just been at the wrong barns. If this is truly the situation then, as I said before she is being very nice, she shouldn't have to pay the juniors, and it is
indeed odd that she has no takers at her barn.

And when they have been doing the 3' for soooooo many years, so they are no longer juniors - they are called shamateurs :lol::lol::lol:

ETA - meaning 3' adults being paid for all of the above while still competing in the adults amateur classes.

[justathought]

Speaking as a young 20 something ... Sometimes you cant AFFORD to ride for free. Personally it depends on my situation at the time. Would I love to ride every horse I can get on and ride 20 horses a day? Hell yes. However, if I can only get, lets say, 4 horses done a day before I lose light and get all the barn chores done, then unfortunately the ones I'm getting paid to ride HAVE to take a priority because I can't afford to lose the money.

Would I love to show your horse for free? Any given day, doesn't matter who/what it is and what I'm doing. Can I afford the entry fees though? No. Can I afford to take an entire day off work? Sometimes. Would I gladly hunt your horse for free 6 days a week? Of course, can I afford to cap that many times? No. Can I afford even one cap on a horse that isn't mine? Nopers!

So you need to understand that while most of us appreciate the opportunities and generosity, we cant always afford to accept it. That isn't to say I wont go out of my way to get on a SERIOUS learning opportunity, but sometimes after riding X amount of horses a day, on top of school/classes, studying, making some food, and oh, cleaning the apartment, there just isnt always a way to get on a free ride.

On the flip side, if I didn't have to work quite as much, or if I had the time and energy, would I expect to get paid? Of course not.

Every situation is different.

Given your description of what you do and your age, you are a professional under the USEF rules. Therefore, there is no problem with anyone paying you so long as you ride and show as a pro. If you show as an amateur, that would be a problem.

As to juniors, those under 18, the rules say that anyone uner 18 is by definition an amateur. My argument is that you do not pay amateurs to ride, you pay pros.

[tja789]

Molly99,

I am glad that it worked for you to be paid...

But as a parent - of a kid that did go to national finals and was extremely successful locally - I do not believe that a junior, any junior should be paid....

To me, not a question of whether the horse is benefiting, (maybe yes, maybe not - juniors are not professionals with an established set of goals for each particular horse they ride nor a program form where the horse is going and what is needed for their development) its a question of definition. Juniors simply are not professionals.

Someone earlier in this thread asked if you wanted someone to paint your house would you not pay a teenage. For me the answer is clear, NO - I would not pay a teenager, but then, I also wouldn't want the risk that goes with them painting my house.

Similarly, if a junior is riding my horse, it is happening under the supervision of a trainer - who is a professional - either directly or through their barn. With all the appropriate releases signed by parents and in place and a trainer who knows the horse and the kid.

That's just me

Does this mean that a 15 year old shouldn't accept money for babysitting because shes not childcare professional? If we follow this logic then teenagers, who aren't professional at anything, shouldn't get paid for anything which is contrary to the notion that they get off their butts and pay their own horse expenses. Guess you really do need Mom and Dad picking up all of the bills.

[Texan By The Grace Of God]

And I'm sure that some of that talent can be attributed to the experiences from picking up extra rides and riding different kinds of horses, and learning how to catch rides and be successful.. It takes a lot of practice and experience to be able to get on a strange horse and put down a nice trip. You don't get that experience from riding one horse all the time.

So she owes part of her talent to the people who have provided her with many different horses to ride and learn on. In essence, her catch rides have helped make her the rider she is....

You shouldn't get paid for that.

Isn't that true about everyone that is successful in this sport? So should no one get paid?

[Serah]

Isn't that true about everyone that is successful in this sport? So should no one get paid?

Noooooooo... professionals should get paid... They give up a lot to try and make it in this business and those sacrifices are why they get paid.

[Texan By The Grace Of God]

Noooooooo... professionals should get paid... They give up a lot to try and make it in this business and those sacrifices are why they get paid.

Because of the way the usef rules are written juniors are not professionals because of their age. Alot of juniors actually ride better than people who are considered a professional. And whos to say a junior doesnt give up alot and try to make it a buisness? I can't speak for everyone but the specific junior I mentioned actually DOES make a living off of the horses and HAS given up alot. So basically you are saying people should only get paid if they sacrifice?

[Serah]

No basically I'm saying that juniors shouldn't get paid.

[justathought]

Does this mean that a 15 year old shouldn't accept money for babysitting because shes not childcare professional? If we follow this logic then teenagers, who aren't professional at anything, shouldn't get paid for anything which is contrary to the notion that they get off their butts and pay their own horse expenses. Guess you really do need Mom and Dad picking up all of the bills.

We can all pull out examples that suggest that kids get paid for stuff.... and they do. But they should not be paid for everything and anything simply because they can do it.... that is why there are chilld labor laws as well as why kids are not legally allowed to do certain jobs. BUT you take the example to an extreme - there are A LOT of ways that juniors CAN and SHOULD contribute, for example:
1. Working in the barn including mucking stalls, watering etc
2. Grooming at shows
3. Working at part time jobs outside of the barn
4. Braiding for themselves and if they get good enough for others
And, these pay well enough to cover a lot of expenses - my child and any number of other kids I know have covered the bulk of the cost of showing this way. But getting paid for riding is a professional activity and if you are claiming to be an amateur then, in my view, you should not be paid.

The truth is that - as a junior - Mom and Dad are the primary source of your support. And, different parents have different resources. It would be great if every kid could have a string of fancy show horses and the grooms to take care of them, but most don't. (Interestingly enough, many of the ones who do own or have access to a string of horses are also the ones that get catch rides - that is because riding more and having more ring experience makes you a better rider).

PS. I wouldn't hire kid to take care of another child for any significant amount of time (day care is provided by professionals). My child had an adult babysitter until she was old enough to contact me herself.

[dainty do]

I think teens today, as in my day (25 years ago) are still under a significant amount of pressure.

In my junior years, there were always plenty of horses to ride as long as you already owned a horse. I did not have a horse, and was slightly envious of those who turned down offers to ride the nice 3'6" horses. (I would have cried if someone gave me this opportunity.)

After talking to one of these elite riders, I realized that even though she was only a freshman in high school, nothing less than Harvard was expected. After all, her parents met at Harvard law school.

These kids that turned you down are possibly under alot of pressure to do well in school and to sign up for activities they don't really care about just to boost the college transcript. (Although I would bet that your top students would LOVE to ride your horses, but do not have the time)

If you want the horses ridden and shown, I would agree with a previous poster -- just try and lease them. Your juniors have other priorities.

Incidentally, when I was a junior, there were always more available horses than proven riders. The trainer got creative once and had a "Winter Special" making these horses available for lease. Several horses actually were leased, and one was even sold.

[Vkent]

Given your description of what you do and your age, you are a professional under the USEF rules. Therefore, there is no problem with anyone paying you so long as you ride and show as a pro. If you show as an amateur, that would be a problem.

As to juniors, those under 18, the rules say that anyone uner 18 is by definition an amateur. My argument is that you do not pay amateurs to ride, you pay pros.

I stay well away from the amateur divisions, not that I can show at this point! haha. What I'm trying to say though is even as a junior I sometimes found myself in the same position... 3 paid rides after hours of school and work. Did you turn it down for a better ride on a free horse, or do you pay your lesson bills? I'm just trying to point out, its not always entitlement, sometimes its just necessity. Did I take every free ride I could as a junior? Oh yes, but you have to prioritize unfortunately.

[supershorty628]

I'm a junior and have done some catchriding, but I would never expect payment (or really any kind of reimbursement). Every time that I get to ride another horse/pony, I'm benefiting as well. Now, there have been owners or trainers who did give me some sort of gift - I rode a pony for another COTH poster up in Vermont for a week and she sent me a lovely saddlepad with my initials embroidered on it, as well as buying an adorable picture of him and giving that to me, and I have most of Pillsbury's ribbons that he won last year, including his zone award, which was really special to me, but that's it. I frequently hack and school horses at the barn, particularly ponies when we have them (I'm smaller than the professionals who school some of the horses).

Granted, I'm not a big name junior by any means, but I have had my fair share of success. I do think, though, that paying a big name junior is not unreasonable. There's a lot to balance as a teenager right now, particularly older teens who are working on college applications when they aren't riding, etc. I know I wasn't the only one in the stands at Syracuse working on homework and college essays.

[Little Valkyrie]

Serah is right on target. Little Valkyrie you sound very self-serving. So if the horse is better than yours, you don't have to get paid. But if it is not better than your horse, then you do want to get paid. How nice of you. And how selfish of you. All you care about is if it will benefit you. Part of the problem is some of these "Hotshot" Juniors think they are better than most professionals. And the minute they leave the junior ranks and become pros they walk around with their nose up in the air like their shit doesn't stink. I would still like somebody to name Juniors that they think should be paid.

I don't think I'm better than any professional by any means, but I am kind of trying to make a living too. There is a need in the equestrian community for competent people who can exercise a horse for people without taking away from their training, but might not add anything monumental either. This, of course, does not mean that every time I get on a horse I demand payment, that is absolutely absurd and I cringe at the thought of anyone doing that. If I am asked by the owner to ride and they offer to pay, thats great and I enjoy doing the work, but in no way shape or form would I ever demand payment, and I always recommend my trainer as a professional to people asking me to ride. And there are circumstances when I have told an owner that another junior would be a more suitable fit for the horse/situation than myself.
And furthermore, as to the assumption that the juniors who are being paid are going to grow up to "pros they walk around with their nose up in the air like their shit doesn't stink" I have no plans to become a professional. I simply enjoy my horses and whatever rides I can pick up on the side are an added bonus. I think that this is a difficult discussion when you have not seen any of these people ride, do not know their horsemanship skills and do not know them as a person. I might sound self serving, but hey, I need to put gas in my car just as much as you do.

[findeight]

She has a point...but not sure that was what the OP was talking about.

I mean, if you get the kid next door to take care of your pets while you are out of town, you do pay them a little. Maybe, looking at it that way, if I ask a qualified kid to excercise my horse days I can't get to the barn? Maybe it is not so out of line. Although NOBODY has ever asked me for a dime. Including Indoor winners and Medal kids. They say "thank you, horse is fun".

That said, I read something else into the OP-kids that think a free ride on somebody else's horse entitles them to monetary compensation because they think it benefits the horse like a Pro ride and they ride like that Pro.

Easy way to deal with it is get the trainer to assign the ride as an extra hack. Solves the issue.

One other thing...I read some talking about entry fees or show charges? If owner asks kid to show, owner pays those. If kid/parent asks, they get that one.

Suggest OP just tell these wannabes to talk to the trainer. Make sure trainer knows your preference in riders and will respect your wishes. Then ignore them.

[chaotic mind]

There is a definite entitlement problem here and it is rampant and long lived. What in the world makes owners or trainer think that that they shouldn't be charged for someone's time and labor.

Oh your horse is so special people should line up for the privledge of riding it? Guess what, if they're not, it isn't.

Riding is a skill Juniors work at and pay for. Very rarely do they get their lessons for free. They didn't wake up one day and say oh I want to ride and suddenly they could ride any horse over a 4 ft course and nail all the spots and changes. It's a hard won skill that apparently you feel you are entitled to benefit from for free.

Face you are not expecting people to ride your horse for free because you are a generous person. Your horse being shown increases it's value. You have employment standards you expect that child to meet. You expect a certain skill and fitness level from them. You just don't want them to have enough intelligence to realize that skilled labor deserves to be paid for.

By your reasoning the fact that I have a corner office that I couldn't pay for myself, I work on exciting and challenging projects that I would never get any other way, working with equipment I could never afford means I would be curlish and have and overblown sense of entitlement if I expected to get paid for my engineering skills.

I know this is different we are talking about children you shouldn't have to pay children for their time and skill. Guess what the fact there are child labor laws means the majority of this country disagrees with you.

[findeight]

Errr...OP is not talking about talented riders here. Just average rider barn kids who, traditionally, just get assigned extra hacks according to ability in most barns. Believe she mentioned a Childrens level rider expecting a free ride for showing in the Pre Childrens which is either 2'3" or 2'6" depending on region.

Ya' know, some average kid or even a good one, comes up and asks me to finance them on my horse at a show that is their idea to go to? Um. no.

[Haalter]

Just plain wow. With the attitude of many of the adults on this board, I can see why many kids today feel like they do. Boy, have times changed since I was a junior!

1. I *AM* the trainer. These kids and their parents obviously respect my skills and judgement to some extent, or they would not have chosen to join my program.

2. I don't have an overinflated perception of my horses' value/talents/skills. Please assume for the sake of argument that these horses are considerably nicer than the ones the kids own, the ones their parents pay for them to board, have lessons on with me, and show.

3. I really don't think the "pressure" of being a teenager today is so much more difficult today than it was 20-30 years ago in terms of parental/societal expectations. When I was a teen, I was expected to get straight As in school if I wanted to ride, as well as being expected to have a job (braiding and grooming) which actually did pay for a good deal of show expenses. I still had plenty of time to ride horses for my trainer without extra pay.

4. In my world, 3' level riders aren't "highly skilled". Sorry to all those who are terribly offended by this, but it's the plain truth. One poster mentioned that 3' riders were in high demand for backing young horses and riding the tough ones? Really? That's definitely not how it works where I come from.

5. People keep saying how these teens' time is valuable and worth money. What about *my* time? The time spent giving these kids lessons without compensation, coaching at shows, paying show bills? The time that went into making my horses into legitimate competitors? I like the idea of paying the kids $20 per ride and charging them $60 per lesson. If they were hacking four days a week and having 2 lessons a week, I'd still come out ahead. So IMO the kids are getting a great deal if there is no cash changing hands!

Anyway...there *are* a few adult amateurs in my barn who are more than happy to ride these horses, and thank me every time I offer them the opportunity. Ironically, these adults have *far* more responsibilities in their personal lives between jobs, families, and their own horses, than the teens do, but they have a totally different attitude about it than the teens - they are grateful and appreciative for the experience and would never ask for pay...and it's not just because they want to maintain their amateur status. And guess what? They are better riders than these teens, because they jump all over opportunities like this whenever they arise!

I just thought that since the teens claim they want to be professionals and are always drooling over my horses, they would be excited about getting to ride them, like many teens I have known in the past, and like the teen I used to be many years ago. I guess I was wrong. But no worries: the horses will have plenty of riders and go to plenty of shows with people who actually want to improve their riding skills. In the meantime, these kids will probably be stuck at the 3' level forever, and they will probably wonder, if they someday decide to hang out a shingle as a pro, why a career in horses just doesn't work out for them.

[chaotic mind]

Errr...OP is not talking about talented riders here. Just average rider barn kids who, traditionally, just get assigned extra hacks according to ability in most barns. Believe she mentioned a Childrens level rider expecting a free ride for showing in the Pre Childrens which is either 2'3" or 2'6" depending on region.

Ya' know, some average kid or even a good one, comes up and asks me to finance them on my horse at a show that is their idea to go to? Um. no.

Even average is a skill level. Or do you expect me to believe she puts anyone up a horse regardless of their ability to stay on. Again by your reasoning only superior workers should expect to get paid, the rest should feel privileged to have somewhere to go eight hours a day.

As far as your last line. Isn't that what trainers do? If you choose to say no to having someone ride you horse that is your choice just as it is your employers choice whether he hires you in the first place. But when you work, you do expect to get paid, even if you are enjoying it, do you not?

[chaotic mind]

Anyway...there *are* a few adult amateurs in my barn who are more than happy to ride these horses, and thank me every time I offer them the opportunity. Ironically, these adults have *far* more responsibilities in their personal lives between jobs, families, and their own horses, than the teens do, but they have a totally different attitude about it than the teens - they are grateful and appreciative for the experience and would never ask for pay...and it's not just because they want to maintain their amateur status. I just thought that since the teens claim they want to be professionals and are always drooling over my horses, they would be excited about getting to ride them, like many teens I have known in the past, and like the teen I used to be many years ago. I guess I was wrong. But no worries: the horses will have plenty of riders and go to plenty of shows with people who actually want to improve their riding skills. While these kids will probably be stuck at the 3' level forever, and they will probably wonder, if they someday decide to hang out a shingle as a pro, why a career in horses just doesn't work out for them.

Funny all the trainers that I knew as juniors and are now successful after hanging out their shingle charged for their skills as juniors. It's probably something about learning early on the value of your skills and not giving them away that makes them successful business people.

Oh does the department of labor know about your views regarding child labor? I think they could have a field day with the horse industry.

[Jumphigh83]

^5 Haalter....

[Haalter]

Errr...OP is not talking about talented riders here. Just average rider barn kids who, traditionally, just get assigned extra hacks according to ability in most barns. Believe she mentioned a Childrens level rider expecting a free ride for showing in the Pre Childrens which is either 2'3" or 2'6" depending on region.

Ya' know, some average kid or even a good one, comes up and asks me to finance them on my horse at a show that is their idea to go to? Um. no.
Findeight, the crazy thing is, that the situation is even more ridiculous than what you described: we're talking about a 3' rider not just getting a free ride to show a 3'6" horse, but the kid is asking to be paid to do it! I know you "get it" in terms of understanding how the horse world has worked for years, so reread my posts (I am the OP) so you can see that this is even crazier than what you're talking about!

[Haalter]

Oh does the department of labor know about your views regarding child labor?
:lol: :lol: :lol: They can come arrest me at the next horse show. I'll be the one giving the poor, abused prep-school kids free rides on a fancy warmblood.

[Jumphigh83]

You know, after giving this some more thought, this could be why we are cranking out riders and not horseman. There is so much to be learned hanging out at the barn, starting at the mucking level...(how much manure, did he drink water, firm stools, loose, undisturbed bed, stall trashed etc etc) and moving up to the actual riding and training level. I thought it was a privilege to ride nice horses (that I could NEVER afford to buy or lease)..heck I even appreciated the rides on the crappy horses...I just wanted to ride. I guess there isnt THAT much motivation these days. Reminds me of the Maclay test where a judge asked the rider "how do you know your horse has colic?" Her reply??? "You get a BILL FROM THE VET" OMG.

[chaotic mind]

Findeight, the crazy thing is, that the situation is even more ridiculous than what you described: we're talking about a 3' rider not just getting a free ride to show a 3'6" horse, but the kid is asking to be paid to do it! I know you "get it" in terms of understanding how the horse world has worked for years, so reread my posts (I am the OP) so you can see that this is even crazier than what you're talking about!

Yes exactly, it is how it has worked for years. Just as until fairly recently women automatically got paid less than a man for the same job. Do you that that long standing practice of how things worked should still be in place? Times are changing get used to it.

If this kid is such and inferior rider why do you care so much if they ride your horse?

[Jumphigh83]

By definition and by chronology, a junior does not have the experience to qualify them as professionals. How many professional doctors, lawyers, investment bankers etc etc do YOU know that are under 18?? Yeah right. Some things come with a degree of maturity that simply does not exist in a child. It therefor makes no sense to try and qualify as a professional when you have not put in the time nor do you have the background to represent yourself as such. are there good junior riders? Of course! BUT they are not professionals. They are good kids. Kids. Hopefully they have some actual pro behind them making sure they continue on the right track. All done with my soapbox ..flame away!

[Haalter]

If this kid is such and inferior rider why do you care so much if they ride your horse?The only way these kids (who are my students, in case you missed that part) will become great riders is if they ride as many horses as they can whenever they have the opportunity. Even if they have some talent (which they do), talent without experience isn't going to get them far. Believe me, it's not like anyone other than their trainer is offering them nice horses to ride for free, let alone offering to pay them!

[AshKnoll]

First let me say I haven't read every post on this thread, but I more than get the general gist, and I want to put in my .02 for the people who feel juniors should never be paid. I was given gifts and/or paid to ride from the about age 11 to 17. After my last junior year I decided I wanted to be an amateur, and not have riding be a job anymore. Some kids in my high school worked part-time in fast food, retail, etc... I rode horses to make money. I got all my clients through referrals, and people offered to reimburse me, they felt it was the right thing to do, I didn't go around with my hand out.

I started riding other ponies when someone saw me ride at a show, and wanted me to ride their young, very green ponies for them. I did this for a bit, but the 25 min. drive each way became to time consuming. Understand I was taking lessons and showing my own ponies, at the time as well so this added on top of my already very busy schedule. I was in school of course as well, so time became too limited. I ended up getting a helmet for this after putting in a couple rides a week on several ponies for a few months.

I was referred to other people to ride their green ponies, as I was small and could stay on almost anything. So I got to ride the ponies no one else could ride. Seems some people on this thread feel I should be thankful for the opportunity to ride dangerous ponies and not expect anything for it. Trainers would tell my Mom, well no one else can ride this pony, but your daughter could, when can she come out? I only took rides on those types of ponies a few times as it obviously wasn’t worth the risk.

By 14 I was riding horses for a neighbor. I broke, my neighbor’s ponies, horses and got them going to where they could walk, trot, canter, jump a small course and do changes. Should I not have been paid for that? I had many of my own to ride, and these weren't world beaters I was riding, they weren't anywhere close to top show horses. The owner simply wanted to get them going well enough to sell, and didn't want to pay big bucks for the pros in the area. I would never say I was better than a pro at that time, but I was more than adequate to get the horses going nicely under saddle. All the ponies I rode for her went on to be nice show ponies for young kids, so I must have been doing something right.

At 16 I started riding for someone else as well, mostly getting her unfit show horses in-shape again. This involved mostly lots of trot sets, and I had to drive 20 minutes to get there, why would I not to expect to get paid for that? I had several show horses at home that we had bred, so why would it benefit me to give my time, gas cost, and wear on my car freely to get a horse into shape?

I guess I don't get the mentality that I shouldn't have charged as a junior, but if I were to go pro now, even though my riding skills aren't what they are then it would be ok. I know I could get riding jobs again, several people asked me when I came back from school, but I prefer to be an amateur, and focus on my two horses. Maybe it's just the area I live in, in that there are seem to be more horses than people have time to ride.

I actually always wondered what it would take when I was a junior to get a ride on a top show horse. That is something I would definitely not have expected payment for, and would have considered a privilege. However, it seemed since I had “stickability”, I got all the green, nuttier horses to ride instead.

And no I do not have a better than thou attitude since I was paid to ride as a junior, I just consider myself lucky that I was able to do that as my job as a teenager.

[Haalter]

Jumper63, if I had a herd of rank ponies that needed to be schooled by a small rider, or had green horses I wanted to get miles on to resell, I might look at that as a project for a professional. If the right person for the job happened to be 17 rather than over 18, I'd pay them regardless. However, that's not what I'm talking about - if it were, I could understand some of the attitude I've encountered here from other posters.

Interestingly though, I have a young rider at my barn who *loves* to get on the ponies when they are naughty, and I can't even imagine her trying to charge me or my clients for it. She knows this kind of thing makes her a better rider, and that's worth more than a few dollars here and there. She's the kind of kid who loves to ride, and has the real potential to be a successful pro one day - not because she's exceedingly talented or business-minded, but because she loves to ride so much she'll get on anything she can. I can't wait til she's big enough to ride my jumper, but for now, she is teeny tiny and he is over 17 hands, so we'll have to wait on that. I'll even go one step further and say that if her ride card gets full (which it may someday) she is the type of junior I'd consider paying to ride for me. But she needs a lot more experience and skill before we get to that point.

And bless your heart, chaotic mind, you're really too much. Thanks for some great entertainment.

[chaotic mind]

By definition and by chronology, a junior does not have the experience to qualify them as professionals. How many professional doctors, lawyers, investment bankers etc etc do YOU know that are under 18?? Yeah right. Some things come with a degree of maturity that simply does not exist in a child. It therefor makes no sense to try and qualify as a professional when you have not put in the time nor do you have the background to represent yourself as such. are there good junior riders? Of course! BUT they are not professionals. They are good kids. Kids. Hopefully they have some actual pro behind them making sure they continue on the right track. All done with my soapbox ..flame away!

Qualification as a professional means you have the skills that someone is willing to pay you for. There are professional actors under the age of 18. There are many skilled professionals in the Information Technology area under the age of 18. And yes I believe there are skilled professional investors under the age of 18 (one was good enough, or bad enough, to attract the attention of the FTC).

Two of the three professions you mentioned had governmental regulations that must be met in order to do them. But I think you will find age is not in the requirements.

The fact is children do get paid for their work. Now if you think you are offering someone a great deal by allowing them to ride your horse and they turn it down that is their option. Just as it is your option to turn them down if they offer to ride your horse. It doesn't mean they are over entitled if they decline. They don't have to take everything that is offered them.

The only way these kids (who are my students, in case you missed that part) will become great riders is if they ride as many horses as they can whenever they have the opportunity. Even if they have some talent (which they do), talent without experience isn't going to get them far. Believe me, it's not like anyone other than their trainer is offering them nice horses to ride for free, let alone offering to pay them!

I agree riding as many horses as possible is the best way to become a great rider. Just as becoming a highly skilled engineer requires having worked on many projects. That doesn't mean I worked for free my first 5 years out of college to get that experience.

I would also say that in addition to riding a lot of horses learning from many different trainers is also what it takes to become a great rider. If your students aren't being offered rides by anyone other than you no matter what their talent well, maybe it's time they tried the second part of the equation.

[findeight]

If this kid is such and inferior rider why do you care so much if they ride your horse?

They don't.

How in the world did this get into child labor, equal pay for equal work and denying opportunity? And I thought this was about young teens, not anybody out of college.

I pay the trainer because they ARE good. Not paying for some kid who is not...and they don't even get the ride until trainer deems them good enough.

Talking a near retirement age but still active Hunter who was mid five figures and a AA campaigner back in the day that is expensive to maintain.

Be surprised that the kids who hump it to earn rides are as welcome as that Indoors winner or the Medal finalist IF they ride well enough. Incidentally, come to think of it, neither of those has any money but busted their butts...and NEVER asked to be paid.

But not the twice a week school horse rider who wins at 2' and comes up to me offering to ride my horse since I work and charge me $20 a rideplus they want to take it to a show I pay for. And YES that did happen. Twice. I just said no and blame the parents on that one. They cannot drive my car either.

[Haalter]

I would also say that in addition to riding a lot of horses learning from many different trainers is also what it takes to become a great rider. If your students aren't being offered rides by anyone other than you no matter what their talent well, maybe it's time they tried the second part of the equation.:lol: :lol: :lol: That's classic! ATTENTION ALL TRAINERS: If your Children's Hunter riders you've coached to multiple 3' championships aren't in high demand for their professional riding skills at age 14...YOU HAVE FAILED. It's time for them to find better trainers! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Jumphigh83]

So while we are venting on ungrateful brats...I got a friends child(pseudo adult) an apartment at another friends farm (she was going to school in FL) for the cost of the ELECTRIC!! Yeah an apartment with AC one bedroom cable etc ..nice place...Fast forward a few weeks the new tenant (read spoiled brat) offers to go to my farm and feed the horses (yeah just check water trough they have large bales in the field...make sure they are alive basically) ON HER WAY TO SCHOOL she drives right by the farm.....after three weeks she hands BILL to friend who owns the apt for (yeah thats right the cost of the electric) for going to feed the horses! (that apt owning friend fed for me for letting one of her horses live in the pasture) So I get her a basically free apt, and she bones me the FIRST CHANCE she gets! What a loser. What goes around WILL eventually come around but until then I will grit my teeth and hope there really IS Karma! I guess the "favor" street only goes one way!

[chaotic mind]

They don't.

How in the world did this get into child labor, equal pay for equal work and denying opportunity?

I pay the trainer because they ARE good. Not paying for some kid who is not...and they don't even get the ride until trainer deems them good enough.

Talking a near retirement age but still active Hunter who was mid five figures and a AA campaigner back in the day that is expensive to maintain.

Be surprised that the kids who hump it to earn rides are as welcome as that Indoors winner or the Medal finalist IF they ride well enough. Incidentally, come to think of it, neither of those has any money but busted their butts...and NEVER asked to be paid.

But not the twice a week school horse rider who wins at 2' and comes up to me offering to ride my horse since I work and charge me $20 a rideplus they want to take it to a show I pay for. And YES that did happen. Twice.

Well you made an assumption that if some one isn't over 18 they shouldn't be paid. The title of the thread isn't "what entitles incompetent riders to get paid". It's "what entitles Junior riders to get paid". If someone has a skill set you need be prepared to pay for it no matter what their age. The attitude that children shouldn't get paid is why child labor laws were put in place in the first place.

I have people offer me all kinds of services that I turn down regularly. I don't consider them to be over privileged snots. Those kids didn't offer you a deal you wanted to take that is all. They need to either change the offer or find another market. That's it. Poor marketing on their part.

I wouldn't have taken those kids up on that offer either, but I wouldn't have vilified them for trying. Now the show brat who saw the braiding job I had done on my horse and offered to let me braid her horse for free at her next show, that is an overblown sense of entitlement.

[tja789]

Many opinions on this thread seem to be divided on class lines. The rich kids and their Moms say juniors should never get paid for riding, whereas the not so well off posters say kids should get paid. Guess this is because its easy to ride for free when money is no problem. Hey gals at Wellington and Syracuse and for that matter any kid who is riding the A circuit regularly: you might not feel so perky about giving free rides if mom and dad weren't supplying you with everything you need 24/7/365. And you might not be so thrilled if the horses were difficult, completely unfancy project animals.

OP, I guess many adults responded to your post negatively because it seems that what you're offering is too good to be true. So people probably assumed that you were trying to get free exercise rides/other chores out of your students by presenting extra riding as a privilege rather than a job. If you really want to teach lessons for free and pay for your students to show with no strings attached, go for it. If your students don't accept, then I guess they may be a weird bunch of students.

And yeah OP, at my barn the teens and young adults ride the greenies and the tough horses. They get paid a pitifully small amount. Do they accept the pay? You bet. Here in local barn land, it's the way they support their riding hobby.

Chaotic mind, you make some good points. Food for thought.

[Haalter]

Well you made an assumption that if some one isn't over 18 they shouldn't be paid. The title of the thread isn't "what entitles incompetent riders to get paid". It's "what entitles Junior riders to get paid". If someone has a skill set you need be prepared to pay for it no matter what their age.
I guess I should have paid a little more attention to the wording in the thread title. What my original intent was is this: At what point in their riding careers do junior riders deserve to get paid? Is it when they have the ability to make it around a 3' course? Once they have qualified for medal finals? Only if they've won at indoors? That's more what I was going for. And then as I vented it turned into something more along the lines of, why do my students, who have no experience over 3' or riding horses other than their own, think they deserve to be treated as professionals. That's it in a nutshell.

[chaotic mind]

:lol: :lol: :lol: That's classic! ATTENTION ALL TRAINERS: If your Children's Hunter riders you've coached to multiple 3' championships aren't in high demand for their professional riding skills at age 14...YOU HAVE FAILED. It's time for them to find better trainers! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Isn't demand the test of any product? Your students are your product. If you are turning out a product that only you want, no matter what awards they are winning, somethings wrong.

I have known 12 year olds in demand for their riding skills.

[supershorty628]

Many opinions on this thread seem to be divided on class lines. The rich kids and their Moms say juniors should never get paid for riding, whereas the not so well off posters say kids should get paid. Guess this is because its easy to ride for free when money is no problem. Hey gals at Wellington and Syracuse and for that matter any kid who is riding the A circuit regularly: you might not feel so perky about giving free rides if mom and dad weren't supplying you with everything you need 24/7/365. And you might not be so thrilled if the horses were difficult, completely unfancy project animals.


That's a huge assumption. Does that mean that because I worked hard all year and went to Syracuse with my project jumper, that I get everything I need 24/7/365? Does that mean that I didn't spend all year turning a junior hunter into a junior jumper?

I have been on the A circuit for years now and have done everything from the pony hunters to the junior jumpers (not so much of the eq though), have ridden everything from school ponies to 6 figure horses, and I would never say that they are not difficult.

Instead of starting to attack people who are able to show the A circuit, why don't we keep the discussion on track re: should junior riders be paid / do they deserve it?

[Haalter]

Many opinions on this thread seem to be divided on class lines. The rich kids and their Moms say juniors should never get paid for riding, whereas the not so well off posters say kids should get paid. Guess this is because its easy to ride for free when money is no problem. Hey gals at Wellington and Syracuse and for that matter any kid who is riding the A circuit regularly: you might not feel so perky about giving free rides if mom and dad weren't supplying you with everything you need 24/7/365.
And see, this is what I don't get. It seems to me like the kids who can't afford fancy animals yet scrimp and save so they can have pet horses are exactly the ones who would be thrilled with a free ride on a nice one. The rich kids already have nice horses they can ride.

[Vitriolic]

Actually, I'd like to develop these young riders out of kindness as well as a sense of business: their parents are paying me to board these kids' own horses, take lessons and show with me.

Actually, both horses are fit, ready to show, and while they may not be "special" at the top level, both are very nice horses who have won at 3' and 3'6" at rated shows this year. And I'm not "some woman" at their barn - I'm the trainer they have chosen to ride with. I think the scenario you are describing is quite different than what I'm talking about.


You just have the wrong candidates I guess. If it makes you feel any better, I get two or three people per year who seriously expect me to supply them with horses, tack, lessons, housing, transportation AND SALARY to teach them to first ride, then gallop and possibly become a jockey. It is mindboggling for someone who can't lead a horse never mind tack one to expect someone to invest years in them for no real benefit. I have a nonriding farm worker quit each year because I won't let them ride. The odd person has been given the chance, but not the type who expect it and have some bizarre idea that it will help me as much as them.

If you pay someone, pay someone worthwhile. If there is a real "pro" kid in your neighbourhood, it might bring your student's thinking into line to say, "If this was a paid position, I would be offering it to so and so". My husband has dumbfounded a few kids with that attitude by pointing out to them how far behind they are from their more professional age mates. He does it in a nice way, but it is very educational for kids who are 16 or 17 and loping around on well broke horses over 3' jumps to see that they need to compare themselves to a higher level than they are.

[Haalter]

Isn't demand the test of any product? Your students are your product. If you are turning out a product that only you want, no matter what awards they are winning, somethings wrong.

I have known 12 year olds in demand for their riding skills.
You know, I don't even know why I want to qualify this with a response, but here goes: giving my students rides on nicer horses is HOW I CREATE A PRODUCT THAT OTHER PEOPLE WANT. As I stated in an earlier post, one of my former students who did a lot of unpaid riding for me went directly from my program to being a successful professional at age 19. Another former student represented his country (not the US) at the 2008 Olympics. But I guess I'm a failure because the people in my area pay PROFESSIONALS for professional riding jobs, not 14 year old 3' riders.

[chaotic mind]

I guess I should have paid a little more attention to the wording in the thread title. What my original intent was is this: At what point in their riding careers do junior riders deserve to get paid? Is it when they have the ability to make it around a 3' course? Once they have qualified for medal finals? Only if they've won at indoors? That's more what I was going for. And then as I vented it turned into something more along the lines of, why do my students, who have no experience over 3' or riding horses other than their own, think they deserve to be treated as professionals. That's it in a nutshell.

Well there you get into supply and demand. How badly do you need them to ride the horse? When dealing with riders of any age payment is a negotiation process. If you truely think them riding your horse is benefiting them more than you then I can see why you would say you won't pay them. but be prepared just as it is your prerogative to offer to have them ride the horse for free it is their prerogative to view it the other way and demand payment.

If that happens and you still need the horse ridden and have no other options well guess what you are at that point where that person needs to be paid. But if behind them you have others ready to ride for free you might be able to get by a little longer.

If you have a true schoolmaster well that one I would expect people to have to pay to ride. As the horse's value isn't increased by them riding it. Anything else you have to negotiate and in order to negotiate effectively you have to be able to see both sides.

Possibly one of the biggest effects on the horse economy over the next years, is the lack of people of any age who feel just being allowed to ride is payment enough. The days of Tom Sawyer convincing his friends whitewashing the fence is fun are over.

[findeight]

I guess I should have paid a little more attention to the wording in the thread title. What my original intent was is this: At what point in their riding careers do junior riders deserve to get paid? Is it when they have the ability to make it around a 3' course? Once they have qualified for medal finals? Only if they've won at indoors? That's more what I was going for. And then as I vented it turned into something more along the lines of, why do my students, who have no experience over 3' or riding horses other than their own, think they deserve to be treated as professionals. That's it in a nutshell.

That it was what I thought you meant.

I can think of at least 1 10 year old I'd approve of, Pony mini Pro and catch rider to champ at indoors, she has not gone over 3'. Another is a recently aged out Adult that does level 7 Jumpers. Age or height jumped/shown at can be irrelevant compared to experience. But all the desire in the world cannot compensate for lack of experience. Bit of a Catch 22 but it's true anywhere.

Think this is going in two directions here...Haalter, as a Pro, is not going to bill owners for training rides then sub contract it out to a kid in the barn...or she shouldn't. And she, as a teaching pro, isn't going to pay a student for rides she should be doing...or shouldn't. Insurance being the least of the issues, misrepresentation to owners a larger problem.

If some enterprising kid can free lance a little and make a little money working outside the trainers barn, more power to them. If I had one at home or in a straight boarding barn that was ammenable, I might bite.

But not when paying for a training barn set up where the Pro is getting paid and does not charge for deserving kids getting a few extra hacks to gain that experience.

[tja789]

That's a huge assumption. Does that mean that because I worked hard all year and went to Syracuse with my project jumper, that I get everything I need 24/7/365? Does that mean that I didn't spend all year turning a junior hunter into a junior jumper?

I have been on the A circuit for years now and have done everything from the pony hunters to the junior jumpers (not so much of the eq though), have ridden everything from school ponies to 6 figure horses, and I would never say that they are not difficult.

Instead of starting to attack people who are able to show the A circuit, why don't we keep the discussion on track re: should junior riders be paid / do they deserve it?

No offense, honey. But yeah, if you have "been on the A circuit for years now and have done everything for the pony hunters to the junior jumpers" then for practical purposes your parents are supplying everything you need 24/7/365. The amount you could earn riding or doing anything else for that matter would be tiny compared to what is being spent on your riding alone. So there would be no point in doing it. At least not financially.

[chaotic mind]

You know, I don't even know why I want to qualify this with a response, but here goes: giving my students rides on nicer horses is HOW I CREATE A PRODUCT THAT OTHER PEOPLE WANT. As I stated in an earlier post, one of my former students who did a lot of unpaid riding for me went directly from my program to being a successful professional at age 19. Another former student represented his country (not the US) at the 2008 Olympics. But I guess I'm a failure because the people in my area pay PROFESSIONALS for professional riding jobs, not 14 year old 3' riders.

If you check you said no one else is offering your students horses to ride. Around here if someone rides well no matter what their age they get offers now yes many of them are the show for free so you can get experience. And it is up to the rider to determine if it is worth their time.

I have a question if people where you are only pay professionals(professionals having to be above the age of 18) to ride and would never offer a mount to a 14 year old. Whose riding the ponies when they are starting out?

[supershorty628]

No offense, honey. But yeah, if you have "been on the A circuit for years now and have done everything for the pony hunters to the junior jumpers" then for practical purposes your parents are supplying everything you need 24/7/365. The amount you could earn riding or doing anything else for that matter would be tiny compared to what is being spent on your riding alone. So there would be no point in doing it. At least not financially.

Oh no, I agree with that. I was offended by the implication that the A circuit riders have everything handed to them including horses that are not difficult. Of course my parents are supplying what I need - and I'm very grateful to them for that - but that doesn't mean that the other people who do what I do, along with myself, don't work very hard.

I would never even think of charging someone for a ride. Someone paid me once for keeping her pony in work while she was away and it felt wrong. I think I said that before though, and was unsure on the matter of big name riders.

[findeight]

I have a question if people where you are only pay professionals(professionals having to be above the age of 18) to ride and would never offer a mount to a 14 year old. Whose riding the ponies when they are starting out?

Don't break own or show Ponies so can't answer that one personally. But a small Adult pro or accomplished Junior still small enough to fit would be my choice for those all important first lessons and, yeah, I'd pay the Junior for that. But they better have the background and not be starting their first one.

Far as full sized horses? I used to break my own but now buy only finished so it's a moot point. But it would be an accomplished adult Pro known for good results starting youngsters.

And, just for the record, I have offered the finished Hunter mount to 2'6" level kids who earn it...but they don't get paid for that one and ride under the watchful eye of the Pro trainer or they can take a lesson-and pay for it.

[Trixie]

I'll say it again: I'd consider offering an inexperienced 3' rider rides the same way I consider my unpaid interns that colleges send over.

They need to work on their skill set so that they will one day have skills that the workforce has a need for. They need to be educated. As it stands now, my intern is learning more from having the job than I'm getting in return from their present "skill set" of stuffing envelopes and making coffee. I still have expectations for them. In return, they get a letter of recommendation and a great "name" on their resume, plus they've improved their skill set, making them more marketable. The intern is asked to contribute minimally to projects in exchange for experience and education.

They aren't skilled labor yet because they don't have enough skill. I can just as easily ask my paid administrative assistant to do any of those tasks and she'd do it with a smile on her face. The OP can just as easily ask her adult amateur rider to hop on said horse and amateur would do it with a smile on her face.

Some people are kind enough to "pay it back" when a kid has shown an interest in improving their education. Paying entries for it is like giving a scholarship - everyone else is paying to learn those skills. I've had more than one intern who felt that helping out with basic office tasks was beneath them, however, given actual work to do, they were profoundly incapable. They needed to build their education.

[Bent Hickory]

I would still like somebody to name Juniors that they think should be paid.

I'll pay ANY KID that can get the job done that I need done. If I need a pony schooled at a show and there's a kid there who can get the job done, I'm happy - YES HAPPY - to pay them for the school. In fact, I EXPECT to pay them for the service they provide me. No different than me paying an adult to do the same thing - NO DIFFERENCE WHATSOEVER.

[chaotic mind]

I'll say it again: I'd consider offering an inexperienced 3' rider rides the same way I consider my unpaid interns that colleges send over.

They need to work on their skill set so that they will one day have skills that the workforce has a need for. They need to be educated. As it stands now, my intern is learning more from having the job than I'm getting in return from their present "skill set" of stuffing envelopes and making coffee. I still have expectations for them. In return, they get a letter of recommendation and a great "name" on their resume, plus they've improved their skill set, making them more marketable. The intern is asked to contribute minimally to projects in exchange for experience and education.

They aren't skilled labor yet because they don't have enough skill. I can just as easily ask my paid administrative assistant to do any of those tasks and she'd do it with a smile on her face. The OP can just as easily ask her adult amateur rider to hop on said horse and amateur would do it with a smile on her face.

Some people are kind enough to "pay it back" when a kid has shown an interest in improving their education. Paying entries for it is like giving a scholarship - everyone else is paying to learn those skills. I've had more than one intern who felt that helping out with basic office tasks was beneath them, however, given actual work to do, they were profoundly incapable. They needed to build their education.

Yes and those college interns are getting a good deal especially if they don't have the skills or gpa to be eligible for the paid co op positions my organization offers, that includes paid vacation time and puts them on the fast track to a paid intern program which they graduate from with 3 years experience and in 99% of the cases offers of a position paying $82,000 a year with all their co op and intern time counting towards seniority and retirement.

Our co ops come to us with far more skills than stuffing envelopes and making coffee. You get what you pay for I guess.

[ynl063w]

The thing I find most unbelievable about this thread is the fact that a professional trainer would come to a public forum and post negatively about her teenage students. Haalter, I don't understand why this is even a blip on your radar. The kids asked to be paid, you don't want to pay them: find a rider who will ride for free and get on with your life.The lack of professionalism and bad business sense that rears its ugly head on this board amazes me. And as far as whether or not juniors should be paid to ride, that really isn't up to anyone but the owner of the horse that needs a rider. It's nobody else's business either.

[Haalter]

The thing I find most unbelievable about this thread is the fact that a professional trainer would come to a public forum and post negatively about her teenage students. Haalter, I don't understand why this is even a blip on your radar. The kids asked to be paid, you don't want to pay them: find a rider who will ride for free and get on with your life.The lack of professionalism and bad business sense that rears its ugly head on this board amazes me. Oh, please. I use an anonymous screen name and no other names have been mentioned, and as this seems to be a fairly common scenario that's been discussed numerous times here, I felt no concern that myself or my students would be publically identified, and it's more of a rhetorical conversation. When I vent somewhere like this BB anonymously, I find it easier not to rant in my real life about this type of issue, which would certainly be inappropriate and unprofessional. Where's the bad business sense in that? And apparently, from the number of responses on both sides of the issue, plenty of people feel that this is something worth discussing.

[chaotic mind]

Oh, please. I use an anonymous screen name and no other names have been mentioned, and as this seems to be a fairly common scenario that's been discussed numerous times here, I felt no concern that myself or my students would be publically identified, and it's more of a rhetorical conversation. When I vent somewhere like this BB anonymously, I find it easier not to rant in my real life about this type of issue, which would certainly be inappropriate and unprofessional. Where's the bad business sense in that? And apparently, from the number of responses on both sides of the issue, plenty of people feel that this is something worth discussing.

Hate to tell you, but though I don't know who you are, you have put in enough details of your life anyone who knows you off the web will be able to figure out who you are from your posts here. Especially your clients.

[dogchushu]

Yes and those college interns are getting a good deal especially if they don't have the skills or gpa to be eligible for the paid co op positions my organization offers, that includes paid vacation time and puts them on the fast track to a paid intern program which they graduate from with 3 years experience and in 99% of the cases offers of a position paying $82,000 a year with all their co op and intern time counting towards seniority and retirement.

Our co ops come to us with far more skills than stuffing envelopes and making coffee. You get what you pay for I guess.

I don't see how this refutes Trixie's point at all. In fact, I think it supports it. Kids who don't have yet have skills employers are seeking get it through unpaid internships. They shouldn't expect the same compensation as those who already have the skills.

My company pays interns quite well, and we hire from top schools. Those we hire already have skills they've developed through inter curricular activities, academic clubs, volunteer work, etc. So, yeah, we get what we pay for--interns who have already done quite a bit (a lot of it unpaid) to be worth their salaries.

Beyond that, I think it's a stretch to compare riding skills to internships, etc. You learn riding by riding. You can't learn about it in class or with case studies.

[Trixie]

Yes, but the time in the saddle, especially with lessons, IS their education. In most fields, there's a certain amount of learning by doing.

If our interns are useful and have skills we need in the long term, we'll hire them and pay them. However, if they're just beginning in the business world, many need to develop their skills a little bit before they're worth paying. Our recent interns have included:

- The guy who was from out of the country and refused to answer to his female supervisor.
- The young woman who felt it was appropriate to yell at a *CLIENT* who was there to negotiate a multi-million dollar deal for drinking a soda in the conference room.
- The young woman who wrote a "memo" to all female staff imploring them to do a better job of cleaning the kitchen. It did not go out to any male colleagues.

Etc.

Now, while they obviously not all young people, clearly, they did not have a decent grasp of how business is conducted in our workplace. We have a great deal of young staff that is extremely competent and extremely well paid, and they're skilled, and they have put in the time to become skilled. If they're interning and they're excellent, we'll give them more to do. There is plenty of opportunity.

It's a similar analogy to the OP's case. Her young, inexperienced rider wants to be employed in capacity which she doesn't have the skill, hasn't put in the time, and isn't competent, and her "services" are not actually needed by the company.

[Serah]

I guess I have to ask all those people on here willing to pay a 10 year old to show their pony if they would feel differently after the kid crashes or doesn't pin on the pony???


What does it cost a junior to show a horse?? Every catch ride scenario I've seen has been paid for ( ie entries, trainers fee, etc). And if a junior has to take time off work to go show a horse and its going to effect them that much to take off those days, maybe they should just politely decline and go to work!


And as for the poster saying this was class related... I was the poor kid at my barn, and i rode EVERYTHING from pukes to fancy horses... mostly not so fancy. I got put in the dirt A LOT. Ponies that bucked, ponies that stopped, horses that ran away, horses that had nasty stops, all of the above. I never had a made horse, all of mine were green when i got them and I put in a lot of time under the training of my trainer to make them as nice as possible and was successful with all of them.

I'm lucky enough now to have a dream job. Don't doubt for ONE SECOND that all those horses got me where I am now. I NEVER would have had the audacity to ask to be paid for those rides. I was gaining experience, confidence, miles and guts.

Those are the horses that made me the rider I am today. I didn't deserve to be paid, I was still learning! Even the best junior in the country doesn't have the experience and the miles of our top professionals. Yes there are plenty of people out there that are professionals that do not have enough experience or do not ride wonderfully, but that has a lot to do with our amateur rules and is a completely different thread altogether. Bottom line is, juniors should be thrilled to pick up a ride, any ride and take that experience and put it in their pocket, because you never know when something some puke taught you will help you go clean on a super nice jumper, or lay down a flawless hunter round. I can't imagine that many of the top junior riders in the this country would ASK to be paid, or expect it. I think more of the juniors wanting to be paid are "hot shot" juniors in smaller barns that may be the "star" of their particular barn, and whose egos have gotten out of control.

[jumpslikeadeer]

Now, I definitely think it's completely bizarre that a junior would suggest that their TRAINER pay THEM, but maybe we don't know the whole story. When I was a junior, my family was nearly drowning in debt. I worked my butt off to pay my horse's board, and I still remember crying for hours in my horse's stall when I got the notice that my trainer was raising her rates. Riding is soooo expensive, and the OP herself suggests that these are not rich kids.

A lady at my barn once offered me twenty bucks a ride on a super fancy, made pony. It broke my heart, but I still couldn't take it. Twenty bucks for one ride was a ton of money, but then I would have to give up one of my shifts shilling pizza to drunken rednecks at $5.50/hr. Couldn't do it, and the woman thought I was terribly ungrateful.

Now, I jump at the chance to ride any horse for free, but I'm no longer staring down the barrel of four years of college tuition. All I'm saying is that financial issues weigh hard on a kid. There's so much pressure to get enough of a scholarship, and it's hard to keep horses on minimum wage. I don't know if that pertains to this particular situation, but I can imagine that woman with the pony saying these same sorts of things about me back then, so I figured I'd give my thoughts.

[Albion]

Yes, but the time in the saddle, especially with lessons, IS their education. In most fields, there's a certain amount of learning by doing.

If our interns are useful and have skills we need in the long term, we'll hire them and pay them. However, if they're just beginning in the business world, many need to develop their skills a little bit before they're worth paying.

Ah, but there are plenty of jobs where one learns while one gets paid - I had no teaching experience prior to getting to grad school, and I am now in charge of two sections of undergrads. I'm learning how to teach (and learning some of the material for the first time myself!), they're learning how to learn - but I get paid even though I'm just a 'beginner' (and probably by some definitions 'not worth paying' :lol:). You have to do it to learn how to do it, but few of us are masochistic enough to do it for free because it's an honor to shape young minds. :uhoh:

OTOH large state universities wouldn't run without TAs, which is quite different than the case the OP posted about, where there's no reason to pay anyone to deal with the horse(s).

[feather river]

The only junior who should be paid to ride is one who is very, very talented, and is both improving the horse and accomplishing a goal for you (whether that's getting it to Indoors or a year-end award, or putting enough miles on it to get it sold). In my mind, there have been very few who were true "pro juniors." Nicki Shahinian was one, because she could have ridden a giraffe and made it the hack winner.

I agree that you will find people with superegos everywhere and it's not limited to a particular generation. I think you just need to find the right kid or adult.

Then she should be a pro and not qualify any longer as a junior. They cannot have their cake and eat it to, as they say, even though I know this is America and these parents believe the sun rises and sets on their little darlings. But it is threads like this subject that pisses people off regarding the rules. We have enough trouble with these professional amateur riders who take money to sell other folks horses, etc and who still try and retain their amateur status.

However, with that said and out of my system, I do think most talented juniors however are not the "pro juniors" who expect money. A nice token of appreciation for a nice ride should be the correct thing to do.

[LookinSouth]

Ah, but there are plenty of jobs where one learns while one gets paid - I had no teaching experience prior to getting to grad school, and I am now in charge of two sections of undergrads. I'm learning how to teach (and learning some of the material for the first time myself!), they're learning how to learn - but I get paid even though I'm just a 'beginner' (and probably by some definitions 'not worth paying' :lol:). You have to do it to learn how to do it, but few of us are masochistic enough to do it for free because it's an honor to shape young minds. :uhoh:

OTOH large state universities wouldn't run without TAs, which is quite different than the case the OP posted about, where there's no reason to pay anyone to deal with the horse(s).


And then there are some of us that had to PAY to learn on the job nevermind work for free:lol: TA's do get to learn on the job (which I think is ridiculous since I've had several AWFUL TA's, some that couldn't speak the english language even, no offense to you) but the meager Elementary and Secondary Education teachers must pay full time tuition to their university while they spend a year student teaching in the local school systems. In many cases you hardly step foot on campus or meet with your professors but you still pay full tuition.

[Serah]

so now we are comparing people who are UNDER 18 to people who have an undergraduate degree??

[arktos19]

[QUOTE=LookinSouth;3673062] I've had several AWFUL TA's, some that couldn't speak the english language even, /QUOTE]

I actually had a GREAT TA many years ago for calculus who was Asian and had a dubious grasp of the English language, but if asked about a specific problem would do wonderfully explicit solutions on the chalkboard (couldn't understand a word he was saying) without leaving out any of the algebra or making snotty comments about how we should have learned to do the algebra in high school.

[RugBug]

Many opinions on this thread seem to be divided on class lines. The rich kids and their Moms say juniors should never get paid for riding, whereas the not so well off posters say kids should get paid. Guess this is because its easy to ride for free when money is no problem.

What a hugely ridiculous and more than a little bit offensive assumption to make. I'm of the mind that these kids are being ridiculous and thumbing their noses at a wonderful opportunity. And you know what? My single mother (my father died when I was 2 years old and my mom didn't re-marry until I was 22...she didn't feel it was fair to my brother and I do throw a step-father and possibly step-siblings into our lives. She watched many of her friends do that with unhappy results) never paid ONE horse related bill for me. She rarely bought me horse-related gifts when I was a teen (other than toys...a Breyer here, a T-shirt with a horse on it, there, etc). When I my 13 year old self had scrimped and saved all my babysitting and holiday money and bought myself a saddle and all I wanted was stirrups leathers for Christmas. Did she buy my those? Nope. I bought my own show clothes (all the out of styles stuff on sale), I paid for my own shows, my own lessons, EVERYTHING....

A few years ago, my mom mentioned that she was FINALLY making $15/hour. I was like :eek:. The was unbelievable to me. How she raised two children on the money she must've been making is mind-boggling to me. So really, you need to re-think your inane assumption.

The children in question sound incredibly spoiled. If my trainer offered me a ride on a horse that could show me the ropes and get me experience in the next two divisions up from what I was currenlty doing and I wouldn't have to pay for lessons or show costs? I'd move heaven and earth to make it happen. I wouldn't be asking for compensation, no matter how much I could use the money. The FREE experience I was getting would be compensation enough.

On internships: some industries pay, some don't. If you're in an industry that has paid internships....good for you....but don't be so myopic to think that all industries pay interns and that what happens in your industry is what happens across the board. As one small example, Like LookinSouth notes, in Elementary and Secondary teaching, the "intern" gets to pay for the privilege of teaching/learning. Most of us with teaching credentials not only had to pay the university full tuition, actively teach a full day, go to classes of our own with all the associated time and homework involved, but we also had to hold down a job on top of that already full load so we could continue to pay our bills.

[Vandy]

The children in question sound incredibly spoiled. If my trainer offered me a ride on a horse that could show me the ropes and get me experience in the next two divisions up from what I was currenlty doing and I wouldn't have to pay for lessons or show costs? I'd move heaven and earth to make it happen. I wouldn't be asking for compensation, no matter how much I could use the money. The FREE experience I was getting would be compensation enough.
Right on RugBug, couldn't agree with you more. And re: internships? Totally industry dependent. I had one during college with a US Senator in DC, and it was unpaid, like all senatorial internships. Those internships are extremely competitive - doesn't matter how wonderful your GPA is, it's an *unpaid* position that thousands of college students apply for every year to work their butts off simply for the wonderful experience. Most of us did something like wait tables at night to pay our rent/expenses.

[Candle]

The thing I find most unbelievable about this thread is the fact that a professional trainer would come to a public forum and post negatively about her teenage students. Haalter, I don't understand why this is even a blip on your radar. The kids asked to be paid, you don't want to pay them: find a rider who will ride for free and get on with your life.The lack of professionalism and bad business sense that rears its ugly head on this board amazes me. And as far as whether or not juniors should be paid to ride, that really isn't up to anyone but the owner of the horse that needs a rider. It's nobody else's business either.

You know, I thought that too, but couldn't figure out how to say it as nicely. Maybe your students are picking up on your underlying belief that they are inferior riders in dire need of your handouts, and they are a little bit resentful of that. Why would you need to vent about this in real life either? There have been plenty of legitimate reasons why this situation would occur, and you're still taking it personally. Maybe it's not personal, just something to consider.

[Haalter]

OP here again. I don't think I'm taking it personally, just sad I guess that it seems like the horse world I grew up in has changed a lot, and not for the better. I'm venting about it the same way other folks on here vent about the demise of the outside course, or appointments classes - something that was common in the past, that we remember fondly as part of our horsemanship background, that is no longer the way it was in our youth.

I really don't think there's any tension between me and these kids; their goals are just different than what I'd believed, and I'm fine with that. And as far as "being found out"? Highly doubt that will happen. I've been selective about the info I've posted, which may or may not have been tweaked a little bit ;), and this situation seems far too common for these kids to say, "hey I bet that's my trainer on there".

[In The Gate]

A junior deserves to be paid if someone is willing to pay them! Find yourself another junior; if those riders don't want the experience someone else will!

[Trixie]

Many opinions on this thread seem to be divided on class lines. The rich kids and their Moms say juniors should never get paid for riding, whereas the not so well off posters say kids should get paid. Guess this is because its easy to ride for free when money is no problem.

Agree with rugbug here - I'm not rich in the slightest. I'm reasonably well-employed and make enough to pay my entry fees, but not enough to keep and maintain a show horse, nevermind the extravagant costs of purchasing ones that are of the quality of the ones that I have to ride. I'm also an amateur who rides other people's horses for free. Believe me, I've got more than a little "local 3' success" under my belt and I wouldn't feel comfortable charging to ride. I'm not good enough to put in a pro ride every time. I just thank my lucky stars that other people trust me with their horses and have given me the opportunity to ride and show. Without their incredible generosity, I would never be able to ride on the level that I currently do.

Furthermore, as I said earlier, one bar shift a week, one table waiting shift, etc, will cover what one makes in a barn. One can graciously decline the trainer's offer without demanding payment for their so-called "skills" with no harm, demanding payment in this situation is not appropriate.

It's very interesting of you to make assumptions though.

[LookinSouth]

I actually had a GREAT TA many years ago for calculus who was Asian and had a dubious grasp of the English language, but if asked about a specific problem would do wonderfully explicit solutions on the chalkboard (couldn't understand a word he was saying) without leaving out any of the algebra or making snotty comments about how we should have learned to do the algebra in high school.


Yep I've managed with Physics and math TA's that spoke broken english fairly okay for the reasons you describe. But the Chinese woman who spoke almost NO english trying to conduct a General Psych lab??:rolleyes: That was just useless.

[juststartingout]

Geez... awfully long thread and cannot say I read every post..

IMHO Nothing - not a damn thing - entitles juniors to be paid for a ride - don't care who they are, what they do, where they come from. They are juniors because they are kids and no matter how talented (or not) how experienced (or not) how much money they have (or don't), they are kids. They lack the experience, judgement and maturity of professionals simply because they have not had the life (and riding) experience to get there yet.

For my money, when my horse needs a professional ride, I'll pay for it. If my horse needs to be shown in the junior classes (because its for sale or some other reason) I will seek out professional advice on a quality junior to use who will not expect to be paid. IME there are plenty of outstanding juniors who understand that they are benefiting from an extra ride as much as the owner is benefiting -(I willl of course pay the entry fees etc).

[LookinSouth]

Many opinions on this thread seem to be divided on class lines. The rich kids and their Moms say juniors should never get paid for riding, whereas the not so well off posters say kids should get paid.


Uh no, I definitely do NOT fit in the category of rich :lol: Oh how I wish that were true though!
Unlike many of you I didn't get to ride period when I was a kid/teen. I own my one horse now and make many sacrifices in other areas to keep him. I would love to get paid to ride others horses and trust me I need it, but the fact of the matter is I'm not good enough to get paid to ride someone's made 3-3'6 horse.
That's what I can't understand about this situation. We're not talking about trying to find a free rider for someone's rank, green and dangerous backyard monster. We're talking about well schooled horses that are beyond the level of the OP's students very own horses(not to mention the level of the students):confused:

I can tell you I am in no hurry to hop on the rank and dangerous whether paid or not. As an adult ammy I just don't see the point in the risk and I would prefer to ride my own safe, predictable and well schooled gelding. But this is not what is being discussed. If I was offered free lessons and showing on a made 3'+ horse?? I would be downright STUPID to turn down that offer. I would give up my limited riding time on my OWN horse for that offer!

[twobays]

OP here again. I don't think I'm taking it personally, just sad I guess that it seems like the horse world I grew up in has changed a lot, and not for the better. I'm venting about it the same way other folks on here vent about the demise of the outside course, or appointments classes - something that was common in the past, that we remember fondly as part of our horsemanship background, that is no longer the way it was in our youth.


But the implicit assumptions there are 1. This girl, who is a representative sample of all kids today, is a snotty brat with an enormous ego, and 2. Kids of yesteryear had none of these negative qualities and were always obedient, well-behaved barn rats. I'm not sure I buy it.

This happened, when...like a week ago? It seems like an awful lot of energy being wasted on a whole lot of nothing.

[Haalter]

It's not just one kid, it's a few, and it sounds from the responses like there are a bunch of folks out there that feel the same way. In addition to the responses about logistical reasons these kids feel this way, there are some pretty polar opposite points of view on this thread. It's interesting to me - this is my field of work, and obviously I'm passionate about it - so I am interested in hearing other people's views. I don't think it's wasted energy on a whole lot of nothing: I've probably spent a grand total of 20 minutes reading and posting on this thread.

[twobays]

and I'm sure there were plenty of nasty kids around when you were a kid...maybe you don't remember them (and really, who does? I think I've blocked all the high-school bitches I dealt with out of my mind). But there have always been jerks since the dawn of time and I think its a shame to declare the demise of the horse industry over a few bad seeds.

I just get really upset when all kids are painted with the same brush...I was a kid not toooo long ago (and I love the kids at my barn now) and all the girls I've dealt with through riding have been the nicest people. I hate when people just start ranting about "kids today and their entitlement mentality" and they forget that kids are individuals and can't be lumped into a big group.

[Haalter]

At the risk of "wasting" more time on this...I know not all kids today are like this. In fact, as I mentioned, more than one in my own barn is just like I was: not just willing, but excited to get on *anything* just to be riding. But I can guarantee you, there was not one. single. kid. at my childhood barn who wouldn't have been thrilled to get a chance to ride the trainer's horse, and none of us would have dreamed of asking to be paid for it.

[Xx Cory xX]

Got halfway through the posts, and then skipped to the end. Didn't realize the thread was so long when I started reading it!

I'm a broke college student, who as a junior, and now an amateur, could never afford my own horse (and my parents were in no position to pay for a horse either) So I have always depended on people trusting me, and wanting me to ride their horses. I'll always be grateful to anyone who has ever asked me, or allowed me, to ride their horses, and I have always felt privileged that people are comfortable with me riding their horses. I've never asked to be paid, and never expected to be paid to ride a horse. But I have gotten SO much in return, even though it's not money. I've gotten experience, opportunities, and every once and awhile, a little thank you gift.

Experience wise, I think every single horse that I've ever gotten on, has contributed to the rider that I am today.

Opportunity wise, I don't think I can even get into. I've gotten the chance to do things that I thought I'd never get to do.

My coach told me that I should never say no when someone asks me to ride a horse, and it's good advice! You never know what could happen. Might not work out, but it could turn into an incredible experience. My coach's husband saw me riding one horse a few days ago said "Wow, you really will get on anything!!"

But every person is different, and every person's situation is different. For me, I'm so passionate and just happy to be in the saddle and grateful to ride, that people probably take advantage of me, but I don't care. Riding is my happy spot. Plus I think me, and all the other girls at the barn have had it engrained in our heads by our coach that things aren't just going to be handed to us, and we have to work hard and earn it. (I totally contribute my good work ethic to her! haha)

Maybe for some people, riding the extra horses if they aren't getting paid is more of a chore. Or too time consuming if someone needed extra cash and can get it in other ways. Each to their own!

Sorry, long rambling post, but I guess my point is that I think that the OP is being totally reasonable and that alot of kids would jump at that chance! But not everyone..

[twobays]

At the risk of "wasting" more time on this...I know not all kids today are like this. In fact, as I mentioned, more than one in my own barn is just like I was: not just willing, but excited to get on *anything* just to be riding. But I can guarantee you, there was not one. single. kid. at my childhood barn who wouldn't have been thrilled to get a chance to ride the trainer's horse, and none of us would have dreamed of asking to be paid for it.

I love how a lot of people complain about "today's kids" and how they wax nostalgic for the good old days...and NOT ONE parent/trainer has taken responsibility for the "entitlement mentality" or brattiness or whatever. If you think the kids in your barn have out-of-whack priorities or huge egos, maybe you need to look at what you're teaching them, before making sweeping generalizations about "kids today."

[Serah]

This happened, when...like a week ago? It seems like an awful lot of energy being wasted on a whole lot of nothing.



This is a DISCUSSION forum.... This is a discussion about juniors that expect to be paid for rides. This thread has strayed from the exact situation the OP has at times but the general point and discussion has remained the same. How many threads out here could you not simplify and decide are "energy wasted" If we all looked at the forums that way there would be no discussion, thus defeating the purpose of the forums in general.

[Trixie]

I love how a lot of people complain about "today's kids" and how they wax nostalgic for the good old days...and NOT ONE parent/trainer has taken responsibility for the "entitlement mentality" or brattiness or whatever. If you think the kids in your barn have out-of-whack priorities or huge egos, maybe you need to look at what you're teaching them, before making sweeping generalizations about "kids today."

:lol: :lol: :lol:

While my trainers certainly helped instill some values in me, it was hardly their job to do any child raising. Their job is to teach you to ride. In fact, most of today's "parents" would consider it grossly out of line for a hired trainer to ever comment on their child's manners, regardless of how it was done in the past.

[meupatdoes]

There is a definite entitlement problem here and it is rampant and long lived. What in the world makes owners or trainer think that that they shouldn't be charged for someone's time and labor.

Oh your horse is so special people should line up for the privledge of riding it? Guess what, if they're not, it isn't.

Riding is a skill Juniors work at and pay for. Very rarely do they get their lessons for free. They didn't wake up one day and say oh I want to ride and suddenly they could ride any horse over a 4 ft course and nail all the spots and changes. It's a hard won skill that apparently you feel you are entitled to benefit from for free.

Face you are not expecting people to ride your horse for free because you are a generous person. Your horse being shown increases it's value. You have employment standards you expect that child to meet. You expect a certain skill and fitness level from them. You just don't want them to have enough intelligence to realize that skilled labor deserves to be paid for.

By your reasoning the fact that I have a corner office that I couldn't pay for myself, I work on exciting and challenging projects that I would never get any other way, working with equipment I could never afford means I would be curlish and have and overblown sense of entitlement if I expected to get paid for my engineering skills.

I know this is different we are talking about children you shouldn't have to pay children for their time and skill. Guess what the fact there are child labor laws means the majority of this country disagrees with you.


Chaotic, after reading your posts I understand your user name because you have me all awhirl.

1. Please take your campaign to internships everywhere.

2. Have you done the math where if the OP pays $20 per ride 4 times per week and $60 per lesson twice OP comes out ahead? Kiddies are getting the good end of the deal riding 'for free'.

3. Equal pay for equal work?
Since when is a 14yo 3' rider hacking around performing equal work as a pro?
If it's really equal work those kiddies should stop paying trainer to train them and charge HER for when she gets to ride their horses.

[Giddy-up]

After reading through here I now know that it is the parents that feel their little Suzy or Johnny should be paid for a "service".. Boy have times changed. I wonder where I was? It used to be that riding for someone was a privilege not a "job". Well it was inevitable that gratuity would be replaced with greed at some time.

No kidding. :rolleyes: Never once when I came home from the barn or a show & said "I got to ride ____" or "I showed _____ today" did either of my parents say "how much did you get paid?" or something along those lines. They were just thrilled that I got the chance to ride/show more without any cost. And these were parents that helped pay for my riding when my barn work & PT real world job that I also had didn't always cover all the expenses.

[chaotic mind]

Chaotic, after reading your posts I understand your user name because you have me all awhirl.

1. Please take your campaign to internships everywhere.

So you want me to take may campaign for paid internships everywhere? Hmm interesting. Really don't need to though. It's a matter of supply and demand simple high school economics. If you want a work force that is inferior don't pay them after all anything free is worth what you pay for it.

If you want quality interns that quickly produce product that is deployable and keep them as their skill level increases, paying them is the way to go.

It a bit like buying tack if you like replacing bridles every 6 months go with the cheap stuff. But don't say the good stuff isn't worth it based on your experience with the cheap stuff.


2. Have you done the math where if the OP pays $20 per ride 4 times per week and $60 per lesson twice OP comes out ahead? Kiddies are getting the good end of the deal riding 'for free'.

As far as the math well I have seldom gotten goods or services based on what I can afford or what is profitable for me.

The facts of life in this area are if you do manage to find a kid to ride your quality horse for free very quickly they will be pouched by someone who is willing to pay them. Price is about what things cost and how in demand they are, not what you can afford to pay. If riding that horse for free is such a great deal there will be someone else standing in line to do it. If it's not, there won't be. If there is a line of kids waiting to ride the horse, why does she need to vent here or anywhere else? Just tell the kid no I'm not going to pay you Suzy will ride it instead.

I am afraid economics are changing in the horse world. It's about supply and demand not entitled kids. Or what people think they should get for free for the sake of their own bottom line.



3. Equal pay for equal work?
Since when is a 14yo 3' rider hacking around performing equal work as a pro?
If it's really equal work those kiddies should stop paying trainer to train them and charge HER for when she gets to ride their horses.


Well around here $15 to $20 per hour is about what you would expect to pay a rider of any age who can get a horse fit and not ruin it in the process.
$40 to $100 per hour is what you would expect to pay for an accomplished rider who actually increases the training of your horse. Again you get what you pay for. Occasionally you find a bargain but quickly they become overbooked and raise their prices because of their increased demand.

After all would you do a job for free or even $20/hour when there is some one who wants you at that same time and is willing to pay $40 or more? Again price is determined by supply and demand.

[meupatdoes]

Chaotic, I still don't understand how any of this makes your point.

The laws of supply and demand in the appurtenant situation are:

1. OP has 3'6" horses, juniors don't.
2. Juniors would normally pay for lessons, OP is offering them for free on said 3'6" horses.
3. No one else is offering these juniors competing paid rides.
4. OP has plenty of adult ammys in the barn who are happy to ride the horses for free and will do a perfectly fine job as well.

So, how exactly does your logic dictate that the OPs plan is child labor and 'supply and demand' indicats these juniors ought to get paid?

[chaotic mind]

Chaotic, I still don't understand how any of this makes your point.

The laws of supply and demand in the appurtenant situation are:

1. OP has 3'6" horses, juniors don't.
2. Juniors would normally pay for lessons, OP is offering them for free on said 3'6" horses.
3. No one else is offering these juniors competing paid rides.
4. OP has plenty of adult ammys in the barn who are happy to ride the horses for free and will do a perfectly fine job as well.

So, how exactly does your logic dictate that the OPs plan is child labor and 'supply and demand' indicats these juniors ought to get paid?

If you actually read my posts I have always said if she had other people who would ride the horse under the conditions she wants then she doesn't have to pay the junior but don't expect them to ride it if they want to get paid.

If she has plenty of people to ride the horses then why does she care that a junior won't take her up on her deal?

If she has plenty of other people to ride the horse then the law of supply and demand would indicate that she isn't stuck with having to meet that person's demands. So go to someone else. Just like if someone tries to lowball me on something I am selling I don't have to take their offer.

It's her attitude toward the junior that is interesting. If you have a friend offer you what they consider a great deal but really isn't something you want to do under the terms they offered, would you appreciate them saying you have an over blown sense of entitlement because you didn't take them up on it? Would you like them implying that you were lucky to even be considered and that no one else would ever offer you such a deal? Especially considering how low level your abilities are?

If the OP is truly in the catbird seat as she implies the junior may be prepared to eat some humble pie in a few months and ask to be reconsidered. Then again considering the attitude they have gotten they might go someplace else entirely. Clients are allowed to do that.

I also find it strange that a 3'6" horse is considered to be such a find. Personally I have never owned a horse that couldn't do at least 3'6". Are they really that rare and special? I had always figured the lack of entries in the 3'6" classes was due to the riders wimping out not the horses.

[Trixie]

I also find it strange that a 3'6" horse is considered to be such a find. Personally I have never owned a horse that couldn't do at least 3'6". Are they really that rare and special? I had always figured the lack of entries in the 3'6" classes was due to the riders wimping out not the horses.

It's both - a lot has to do with the step + height, not just the height. The jumper I competed last year, at about 15.1" and short strided, could pop over 4' like it was a crossrail but would NEVER have made the strides in the A/Os, no matter how much work I put into making her lengthen. My big horse, on the other hand, at 16.3" and long strided, can march down a 3'6" line just fine. Of course, since he's not mine, I can't show him in the 3'6" A/Os, and I'm no longer a junior.

Which, of course, presents another issue for trainers like the OP: if you've got a good 3'6" horse, you're stuck with a junior, because in order to ride in the A/Os, you must own. :no: I've been fortunate that the woman who kindly lets me ride her horses doesn't mind that I ride in either the adult ammies or a 3'6" jumper class, depending. But she's not campaigning him for sale or points, so it doesn't particularly matter.

[RugBug]

If she has plenty of people to ride the horses then why does she care that a junior won't take her up on her deal?

OP was trying to help some juniors along with their riding. She's giving them an opportunity. I think she was surprised that the juniors, who claim to desire to be professionals at some point, would slap her generous offer in the face. It sounds very 'no good deed goes unpunished' in my book.


I also find it strange that a 3'6" horse is considered to be such a find. Personally I have never owned a horse that couldn't do at least 3'6". Are they really that rare and special? I had always figured the lack of entries in the 3'6" classes was due to the riders wimping out not the horses.

Well, bless your heart. There are plenty of horses that can't do 3'6". That's why people buy new horses to move up the divisions and can't take their short stirrup packer into the 3'6" ring. :rolleyes: Do you really think people are selling their beloved partners because they get tired of them?

Personally, the first horse I ever rode that could do 3'6" is the one I bought 5 years ago. All the others I've ridden have been limited by age, confirmation, scope, step, lameness issues, etc. Sure, a few could probably hop over one or two 3'6" jumps and live to tell the tale. But they couldn't do a course at that height and it could permanently injure a few of the others. I care too much about the horses in my life to push them to do something that could come with such a price.

[flshgordon]

But don't paint all juniors with the same brush. Some very good juniors need to get paid to finance their riding. Some very good juniors are so good that they simply couldn't ride everything that people offer them. If someone offered a Rox Dene clone to a very good junior but couldn't pay, the junior (if she was smart) would do it for free. But for you average everyday horse? The very good junior should get paid if that is what she wants.
.

WTF??? Some very good adult amateurs NEED to get paid to finance their riding too....and they don't because of the rules. I will never understand why it is ok for juniors good OR bad to take money and not require them to be pros. What's good for the goose....

If you're a junior and can't finance your own riding, either get a part time paying job outside of horses or get your parents to finance it. That's what the rest of us do.

[loshad]

If you want quality interns that quickly produce product that is deployable and keep them as their skill level increases, paying them is the way to go.


Um, not necessarily. If the organization you work for is prestigious enough, you can get amazing interns for free. My current intern offers up the quality of work I would normally expect from someone who has been working here for about a year. We've had her for about six weeks. We aren't paying her a dime. Same with the last five interns we've had.

I have a nice horse that a teen hacks around for me on occasion. I don't pay her one red cent and her mother would slap her silly if she asked me for money. If she did ask to be paid, I'd move on to the next teen at the barn who wanted to ride my horse. This girl needs and wants more saddle time, my horse sometimes needs more exercise than I have time for. The ONLY person I pay to ride my horse, is my trainer, not some teen with an entitlement complex and an upjumped sense of her own ability.

Now, if I ask "my" teen to show my horse, you bet I will pay her entries (and even let her keep the ribbons ;) ).

[RugBug]

I have a nice horse that a teen hacks around for me on occasion. I don't pay her one red cent and her mother would slap her silly if she asked me for money.

Heh...that reminds me of the tongue lashing I got as a tween for daring to raise my rates to $4/hour. It was obviously decades ago, but whoo-boy did I hear it from my mom. I have a feeling that some parents these days would think that brashness was 'enterprising' and would be proud of it.

And whomever said the parents are to blame...well, sure they are. Kids learn what is and isn't acceptable behavior from their parents. Let me tell you that I am not proud of the parenting skills of my generation (many of them, anyway...there are wonderful parents all around...they just seem harder to see). When I meet nice, well-behaved children, I'm sure to not only tell the kids they are delightful, but I also compliment the parents on the wonderful job they are doing.

[Whisper]

There are very few jobs that people *pay* to be able to do most of the time. Nobody's going to give you money to let them paint your house or babysit your kids. If the OP wanted to, I'm sure she could part-lease those horses out, get their expenses covered, and have a rider who would pay their own show fees and lessons. Some of the trainers I've worked with have had schoolies that they allowed practice rides on, and that usually costs $20-30 per ride, even on ones who aren't as accomplished as the ones she describes. She *IS* offering something valuable.

I was *amazed* when several other adults, who have seen me ride, expressed shock that I ride for free rather than expecting to get paid. A couple even suggested that I was being taken advantage of! :eek: Keep in mind, the highest I'm comfortable jumping is about 2'6", and I have *LOTS* to work on, including on the flat. The owners I've rode for liked how I worked their horses, and were happy with me, and how I handled things for them. There is no way I would expect money for riding, at the level I'm at. I appreciate the chance to get the extra riding time in, and feel honored that they trust me to take care of them properly.

Of course, I don't expect people to accept every single ride they are offered, and if they are getting offers of money, more power to them! However, if someone offers a free ride, I think that asking for money can easily make the offerer feel that they are ungrateful, and even discourage them from making similar offers to other people. :( If I had time and was closer, I could ride multiple horses every day, instead of just on weekends. I have a real job, and so that isn't feasible. The owner doesn't feel I'm ungrateful in not taking those extra days/rides, but if I have a holiday, I'm welcome to come out for some extra riding.

Yesterday, I rode my part-lease horse at one place, and three of the free "weekend horses" at the other. It was my first time on a greenish 3-y/o Appy filly. She's calm, and very cooperative. I can only ride her under the owner's direct supervision, whereas the two older BTDT horses I rode the same day I can just come out and work, even if she's not home. She trusts me to abide by the restrictions she has set, I call her when I'm on my way out and when I leave, and check in with her neighbor if nobody is home.

I'm sure that different areas have very different supply/demand curves for riders. In my area, I don't think that most juniors or adults get paid unless they are *VERY* good indeed, but from talking with the owners I have rode for, trainers, etc. it's fairly hard for them to find people to ride for free who will still be reliable. Even when some people part-lease, they sometimes don't come out for one of their days if it is inconvenient, even though they are paying for it. If they cancel at the last minute, the owner can't necessarily find someone to exercise/feed supplements/otherwise care for the horse. :(

I don't think it's a "kids these days" thing. I know tons of great kids, including quite a few who ride. I do think that some individual people have an inflated sense of what they are worth.

Personally, I think it's a very bad idea for anyone to let a kid ride a young, green or problem horse. Liability issues are already problematic even with a packer, but with a horse who's *LIKELY* to hurt the kid - really bad idea and just asking to get sued. If a particular junior has someone already paying them to ride, more power to them, and I wouldn't expect them to ride someone else's horse for free. When they don't have a "resume" and a wait-list, though, it seems pretty short-sighted of them to pass up good opportunities.

[Giddy-up]

Well around here $15 to $20 per hour is about what you would expect to pay a rider of any age who can get a horse fit and not ruin it in the process.

That's my issue. Some of these junior riders want payment, but they are offering nothing up for my horse. They are average riders riding older made up stock that makes them look better than they actually ride. They want me to pay them to w/t/c my horse around for 20-30 minutes. I will then have to pay for a pro ride for every few times these juniors sit on my horse to keep him correct. I'm better off financially to let the horse not be ridden.

I've run into one junior rider lately I felt was good enough to pay. And she wouldn't accept payment! She was so excited that I asked her to ride my older horse when I was out of town that she leaped at it--and while I love my horse, he is NOT some uber fancy comfortable to ride horse. She was 100% trustable & actually improved my horse's flatwork because she is quite educated on the basics. She was also a dressage young rider so perhaps that is where the difference lies?

I still think the OP is offering a fabulous opportunity--she just hasn't offered it to the right rider yet. I understand her wanting to offer it to her own clients first & promote her own riders on her own horse, but there might be another rider out there dying for a chance like this.

[chaotic mind]

OP was trying to help some juniors along with their riding. She's giving them an opportunity. I think she was surprised that the juniors, who claim to desire to be professionals at some point, would slap her generous offer in the face. It sounds very 'no good deed goes unpunished' in my book.



Well, bless your heart. There are plenty of horses that can't do 3'6". That's why people buy new horses to move up the divisions and can't take their short stirrup packer into the 3'6" ring. :rolleyes: Do you really think people are selling their beloved partners because they get tired of them?

Personally, the first horse I ever rode that could do 3'6" is the one I bought 5 years ago. All the others I've ridden have been limited by age, confirmation, scope, step, lameness issues, etc. Sure, a few could probably hop over one or two 3'6" jumps and live to tell the tale. But they couldn't do a course at that height and it could permanently injure a few of the others. I care too much about the horses in my life to push them to do something that could come with such a price.

You ever wonder about that term "first year green" that division that is run at 3'6". It is called first year green because once upon a time that was the beginning height for a show hunter not something you had to work up to.

And I care so much about my horses that when they are too infirmed to safely do a beginner height I retire them to light trail riding and a home till they die. I don't just drop them down in level until they break down at that level and then drop them again until they break down at the next level.

[meupatdoes]

Chaotic, since you appear live in a universe where every horse you've ever owned fell out of the sky and doing the 3'6" hunters or equitation with all the step and style in the world, I am starting to understand where you are coming from.

To help you understand the rarity of these animals, I invite you to go to the back of the race track or one of the many auctions in your area, buy 15 horses, which you may be surprised to discover will cost you far less than one horse ready to step into the 3'6" ring, and train them up to the 3'6" hunter/eq ring yourself.

We will consider you successful if you get a ribbon O/F at an A rated show on three of them.

Since 3'6" is a beginner height and you've never met a horse that couldn't do it, I'm sure you'll do just fine.

Or perhaps you will gain an understanding of why these juniors should be leaping at the chance to ride such a nice horse that somebody else has kindly made up for them and said, "Here you are, go ride."

[Trixie]

You ever wonder about that term "first year green" that division that is run at 3'6". It is called first year green because once upon a time that was the beginning height for a show hunter not something you had to work up to.

If we're going to use THAT arguement, these children really don't need to be paid for their "skills" since they're apparently BELOW what you consider a "beginning height."

And I care so much about my horses that when they are too infirmed to safely do a beginner height I retire them to light trail riding and a home till they die. I don't just drop them down in level until they break down at that level and then drop them again until they break down at the next level.

Rugbug merely pointed out that for some horses, certain things are just not fair to ask. A good horseman knows what they can and cannot ask, and will not overface an animal. I would always rather see a horse undertasked, competing at less than their abilities, than one that is overfaced, possibly dangerously.

[Bent Hickory]

To help you understand the rarity of these animals, I invite you to go to the back of the race track or one of the many auctions in your area ...

Sounds to me that you're saying "It's rare to find something for nothing." On this, then, we can agree!

[RugBug]

Sounds to me that you're saying "It's rare to find something for nothing." On this, then, we can agree!


No, Bent Hickory. What meupatdoes is saying is that the horse budget that many people have available means that the 3'6" horse IS a rarity. If you're budget is $3-$5k, and you want sane and sound, you just may not get a horse with enough talent for 3'6". Now, up that budget to $20-$50k and you will find a lot more horses that can do 3'6".

My horse was less than $5k (my usual shopping upper limit)...but with issues. He's got presence, moves nice, has a ton of stride and scope, but he is a little less than sane and has some confirmation issues. He was also green as heck when I bought him, could hardly steer, didn't move off your leg, didn't accept contact, etc. He was a project to get where he is today...and even as trained as he is...he is STILL not a horse that just anyone can ride.

[LookinSouth]

. Very rarely do they get their lessons for free. They didn't wake up one day and say oh I want to ride and suddenly they could ride any horse over a 4 ft course and nail all the spots and changes. It's a hard won skill that apparently you feel you are entitled to benefit from for free.

.



That's true. Lessons rarely ARE free, yet you still cannot seem to comprehend what is unique about the OP's offerings. Free training and showing. For juniors that NEED more training and showing on horses beyond the level of their current mounts. Need I really say more?

As for the comment on the 3'6 horses I agree with those that say jumping any old 3'6 course and winning in the 3'6 hunter and eq ring are two very different situations. What was required THEN and what is required NOW of a horse in the 3'6 are vastly different.
Lastly, if you think being able to lesson and show a 3'6 horse for free is commonplace why not call around to the barns in your area and learn for yourself how common it actually is. I think the trainers you talk to will get a good laugh:lol:

[meupatdoes]

Sounds to me that you're saying "It's rare to find something for nothing." On this, then, we can agree!

No, Bent Hickory, I am saying that the VAST MAJORITY of horses are not imported warmbloods worth tens of thousands of dollars that can walk around the 3'6" at the rated shows and do it with style. People who have ridden made, high quality horses on the circuit all their lives quickly forget that your average horse is a $700 grade horse or an ottb which, if you ride well enough, you can hopefully teach from the ground up how to go around the shows (see vids in signature line). The horses that chaotic is describing are RARE, as I know from personal experience riding everything under the sun, and not just made 3'6" horses.

Have you ever met, much less sat on, a horse that went through an auction in the backwoods? THAT'S your average horse. Even the horses that do the 2'6 at the C shows are upper echelon, relatively speaking.

But if you've never ventured out of the super elite show world and have never met a horse that didn't jump 3'6 that would be a foreign concept.

If 3'6 horses were a dime a dozen they wouldn't be worth five digits plus. The vast majority of horses are worth three digits instead of being worth more than thw average US American's salary, and THAT is why juniors with a reality check JUMP at the chance toride a 3'6 horse.

[chaotic mind]

That's true. Lessons rarely ARE free, yet you still cannot seem to comprehend what is unique about the OP's offerings. Free training and showing. For juniors that NEED more training and showing on horses beyond the level of their current mounts. Need I really say more?

As for the comment on the 3'6 horses I agree with those that say jumping any old 3'6 course and winning in the 3'6 hunter and eq ring are two very different situations. What was required THEN and what is required NOW of a horse in the 3'6 are vastly different.
Lastly, if you think being able to lesson and show a 3'6 horse for free is commonplace why not call around to the barns in your area and learn for yourself how common it actually is. I think the trainers you talk to will get a good laugh:lol:

What you can't comprehend is that no one should be required to take an offer they don't want to. The kid doesn't want to ride the horse for free even if it means free lessons. Everyone here seems to feel that she is some how obligated to do something she doesn't want because the trainer wants her to do it.

The kid should no more be obligated to take the trainer up on her offer than the trainer should be obligated to hire the kid if she didn't want to. Just because the trainer thinks it is a good deal doesn't mean it is worth it to the kid. They obviously have different goals

Do you take every deal the person trying to sell to you says is great? Are you obligated to? Or is it just people under the age of 18 who have to take whatever anyone wants to shove down their throat?

And if it is such a great deal and the kid is such a hack I am sure the OP can find someone else who is more qualified to take her up on her offer.


meupatdoes:
The comment about in my world 3'6" horses must fall out of the sky. Not really but close. They show up in the spring. At least in the years I breed a mare the year before.

As far as ribbons oh yeah boxes of them. Somewhere in the basement. Why you need some?

[meupatdoes]

What you can't comprehend is that no one should be required to take an offer they don't want to. The kid doesn't want to ride the horse for free even if it means free lessons. Everyone here seems to feel that she is some how obligated to do something she doesn't want because the trainer wants her to do it.

The kid should no more be obligated to take the trainer up on her offer than the trainer should be obligated to hire the kid if she didn't want to. Just because the trainer thinks it is a good deal doesn't mean it is worth it to the kid. They obviously have different goals

Do you take every deal the person trying to sell to you says is great? Are you obligated to? Or is it just people under the age of 18 who have to take whatever anyone wants to shove down their throat?

And if it is such a great deal and the kid is such a hack I am sure the OP can find someone else who is more qualified to take her up on her offer.


meupatdoes:
The comment about in my world 3'6" horses must fall out of the sky. Not really but close. They show up in the spring. At least in the years I breed a mare the year before.

As far as ribbons oh yeah boxes of them. Somewhere in the basement. Why you need some?

And I'll bet that the breeding fee to the stallion alone is worth more than twice what the average horse is worth bred, born, trained, and ready to ride.

And how much do you spend time and money wise after the foal hits the straw before it's actually hunting around the 3'6?

And I'm sure you sell those babies for around $500 which is what your average horse at this beginner level you speak of is worth.

But 3'6 horses are a dime a dozen and it's not expensive to make one up or buy one. I'll keep that.in mind.

And no worries, I do ok for myself ribbon wise and won't be needing to dig through your patronizing box.

[LookinSouth]

What you can't comprehend is that no one should be required to take an offer they don't want to. The kid doesn't want to ride the horse for free even if it means free lessons. Everyone here seems to feel that she is some how obligated to do something she doesn't want because the trainer wants her to do it.

The kid should no more be obligated to take the trainer up on her offer than the trainer should be obligated to hire the kid if she didn't want to. Just because the trainer thinks it is a good deal doesn't mean it is worth it to the kid. They obviously have different goals



Nobody thus far has said the juniors are/should be obligated to take the offer. Perhaps said students DO have different goals, perhaps they simply don't want an extra ride. Who really knows...the reasons are irrelevant.

A lack of desire on the part of the kids in this situation is NOT what is being discussed here. Most of us are simply in complete disbelief that there are juniors and parents on this thread whom continue to maintain that inexperienced kids should be paid to ride. period. Paid to ride/lesson/show experienced horses, owned by their trainer that happen to be beyond the quality of their own animal and their current riding ability.

To me it is shocking. Turning down a unique and generous offer is one thing, demanding PAYMENT on top of denying a generous offer is entirely different!

[chaotic mind]

And I'll bet that the breeding fee to the stallion alone is worth more than twice what the average horse is worth bred, born, trained, and ready to ride.
No actually not and sometimes the breeding is free based on the quality of the mare.


And how much do you spend time and money wise after the foal hits the straw before it's actually hunting around the 3'6?

And I'm sure you sell those babies for around $500 which is what your average horse at this beginner level you speak of is worth.

Actually I breed for my own and my families use, but I have turned down between 50 and 80 times the amount you mention.

The foundation mare was only $1000 (since money seems to be a concern for you) she did 4 ft quite nicely. She hated bullies so it was easy get her from the training barn she was at. A year of rehab to get her mind back and I had a horse that would hunt around a course and jump whatever you put in front of her.

I do it for the love of it, not the money. I don't even take any of my horse expenses off on my income taxes because I never want to have to sell one to please the IRS.

[Beau Cheval]

I'll come labor extensively to pet them!!!! I know the feeling!! It drives me nuts. There are all these people at my barn who get so many opportunities, and I always end up feeling like THEY're doing ME a favor when I let them ride my horse when I'm out of town. He's not an amazing horse per se, but he's a great teacher if you spend the time to learn. He gives you a sort of edge, once you learn how to ride him. I would work my butt of to get to ride ANYTHING. IT frustrates me SO much.