Q about losing trust in trainer

[Tempisx2]

I have lost trust in my trainer. I have been with her for 5 years now. There is always drama at the barn for what ever reason. Could be clients freaking out at show that have never shown. Or the groom deciding not to come.
The last thing is she want me to buy a horse that at 4 years of age had hock problems. This horse had signs of arthritis and had been injected all ready. I have never heard of a 4 year old having hock problem? She mad when I decided not to buy. The lesson are good. But my old Paint that really is limited in dressage. I need to find a better horse but she will not go to other breeders and look. She is insisting I buy the other horse.
What do you all think about this. Am I being stupid. Should I do what she telling me to do?
Tempisx2

[slc2]

No, just get the heck out of there, as quick as you can.

[AllyB]

Run away. There are honest trainers out there that give good lessons too. IMHO

[BaroquePony]

Originally posted by Tempisx2:

The last thing is she want me to buy a horse that at 4 years of age had hock problems. This horse had signs of arthritis and had been injected all ready. I have never heard of a 4 year old having hock problem? She mad when I decided not to buy.

This is NOT a good sign.

Find a new trainer.

[Kate66]

She doesn't sound like a good trainer to me plus she doesn't LISTEN to you, which is disrespectful. At the end of the day you are employing her and she should treat you like a customer, not the other way around.

[Beasmom]

Run away, run away! Trainer must be crazy to advise you to buy a 4 year old with bad hocks. She must have a stake in the sale -- commission or such. Anyway, your instincts are correct. Find a new trainer.

[dresstar]

I know someone that is going threw something like this. It is like I always tell my best friends. You are the one that pays the bills. You employe the horse trainer. Not the other way around. Look at a lot of horses. You don't need one that has problems in the hocks at 4. Their are a lot of horse for sale. People are having a hard time selling right now. All I can say if your trainer dose not have you best interest at heart and will not help you find the right horse move on!
There are good trainers out their that will help you. Move on.
dresstar

[goeslikestink]

I have lost trust in my trainer. I have been with her for 5 years now. There is always drama at the barn for what ever reason. Could be clients freaking out at show that have never shown. Or the groom deciding not to come.
The last thing is she want me to buy a horse that at 4 years of age had hock problems. This horse had signs of arthritis and had been injected all ready. I have never heard of a 4 year old having hock problem? She mad when I decided not to buy. The lesson are good. But my old Paint that really is limited in dressage. I need to find a better horse but she will not go to other breeders and look. She is insisting I buy the other horse.
What do you all think about this. Am I being stupid. Should I do what she telling me to do?
Tempisx2


have you got mug written on your forehead
what you buy for you is your decession would you buy a car for your trianer to use 24/7 and just have the odd drive here and there
boy matey, find another trianer or a decent yard that you can do what you wish to with the horses you have or one you might buy in the future

i dont buy horses for other people so that they can ride them for me or want them for themselves just becuase they havent the dosh
plus have you ever thought that her opnion and trianing methods are limited and that your paint might be better thn you think you only have one opnion and that is one of your trianer b/o has she got the repretation of back up by exprience by that i mean theres an awful lot of trianers in usa that say they are a trianer when in truth they arnt just becuase someone can wtc doesnt make them a trianer or one that runs a yard
and this shows in your post of her lack of inexpreince by wanting to buy a horse thats had its hocks injected

so may people have them injected just for the sake of it, in uk its unheard of and not a common practice unless for medical reasons only and if it was to be injected then the horse isnt 100% sound ie needs the injections to keep it sound

if i was buying a horse i would want clean legs and that doesnt mean dirty
your paint horse in another trainers eyes might be a lot better than you think if you moved to a better place you might not neeed to buy another horse but spend the money on better facilties and trianing plus there are other disiplines you can do with your paint that have a dressage eliment like one day eventing, sj dressage and x/c or ht or p/c r/c riding horse
broaden your view and get out there and try all new things becuase you and your paint horse would enjoy far more stuff and not be limited to one thing and an old paint horse is just the mount you need to try these things on and learn with
dont write him off to soon its only your b/o trianer point of view
obviously your a noivce rider, novice means one whos learning ok, and you asking or posting
as you are begining to understand your being taken for a ride, and at a cost ok

now then go forwards forget buying a new horse for the moment go see what others yards have to offer and what local stuff being done on and aorund your area
ie 4-h , hunts i think they equal to pony club to me in uk, to you, look in your local horse mag and any free mags you get as to whats on now, and go see a few things
and see if thats the type of thing you and your old neddy the paint might want to try your hand at and go do it, dont need a trianer to tell you no you cant its your horse
look at all the major web sites as they all have calenders and they all have listed accredited trainers which often give you there no and whereabouts they are here in uk all out sites have listed trianers bhs, be, bef, fei, bsja. byrds. bd, pony club etc
clinics and rallies are listed in local rags and mags

move then go and enjoy your paint horse for a while and then see if hes limited or not
as i bet he isnt it better to learn new thing on an well established horse that you know well so you can grow in knowledge
good luck and have fun

[citydog]

:no: Run fast, run far.

[mtngirl]

I can understand how you might have trust issues...after all, you've been with this trainer for five years now. However, it's your money, and you will be the one paying the bills, not her. I'm like the others, there must be a financial interest here somewheres. A good trainer should be willing to listen to you and look at a number of different options. There are many, many horses out there that might be suitable without a significant health issue to worry about at such a young age.

If you feel you must, out of loyalty, try and discuss the issue with her one last time. If she gets mad or refuses to listen...go elsewhere.

Also, don't totatlly dismiss your paint horse. There are trainers out there who will work with you with what you have. Yes, if you wish to advance further, you may need a more talented, better moving horse. But chances are, there's still an awful lot you and your current partner can learn with the right trainer. I know. I have a trainer who believes in working with whatever horse I have so that we can go as far as we can with the individual. She doesn't insist I get a better horse, she insists we work with what I have...then if I want to step up, she'll help me in whatever way she can. Having said that, I'm hoping to move up to 3rd level this year with my Appy. When I first got him, the best we'd hoped for was maybe, second level at schooling shows. He's not a warmblood, not an extravagant mover, but his training is correct, he has a great work ethic, and we're learning tons together...and right now, that's what I need. Enjoy the horse you have. :yes: He may be capable of more than you think.

[Dressage Art]

It depends for what you pay your trainer. What are you trying to achieve or what your goals are.

If a trainer intentionally makes me feel bad or tries to push me in to something that I don't want - I don't have any desire to pay $ for that. Remember that a horse trainer renders the similar service as any other service provider.

Don't make a mistake by putting your trainer on the pedestal and thinking that her/his word is golden. Especially don't let your trainer to ruin your self esteem.

[goeslikestink]

It depends for what you pay your trainer. What are you trying to achieve or what your goals are.

If a trainer intentionally makes me feel bad or tries to push me in to something that I don't want - I don't have any desire to pay $ for that. Remember that a horse trainer renders the similar service as any other service provider.

Don't make a mistake by putting your trainer on the pedestal and thinking that her/his word is golden. Especially don't let your trainer to ruin your self esteem.

excelllent post --- couldnt have said it better agree 10000000%

[Hazelnut]

They will not lead you wrong...

It sounds like you already know what to do.

If you go with a new trainer you will feel amazed at how positive life can be.

[slc2]

I have lost trust in my trainer. I have been with her for 5 years now. There is always drama at the barn for what ever reason. Could be clients freaking out at show that have never shown.

--This happens at every barn. MOST more organized and less-desperate-for-cash trainers wean out these drama queens over time. If a trainer is really desperate and can't get enough customers (because s/he's got a bad reputation, because of charging too much, or...just being unknown or new in town), s/he tends to get a lot of bad customers - ones that have gone from barn to barn for years, frustrating all the local trainers, and just have problems - overly nervous, overly wanting attention.

Or the groom deciding not to come.

--This happens at every barn.

-- BUT....It happens a little less often at barns that are organized and run well. For example, the groom may just be a bad employee poorly chosen, because he or she comes cheap or is inexperienced. Or s/he may be angry about unfair work schedule. Overall, people tend to be very unhappy at jobs where they are treated badly or not given clear, fair expectations - it's possible your trainer is a bad employer, but keep in mind, it could be many things.

The last thing is she want me to buy a horse that at 4 years of age had hock problems. This horse had signs of arthritis and had been injected all ready. I have never heard of a 4 year old having hock problem?

--Four year olds can and do have hock problems. Some horses start very early, either because they have very poor conformation (very angled or very straight hocks, sickle hocks, or just small hocks that aren't sturdy) or were started wrong - such as too much time tearing around on the longe line or in the round pen, worked on bad footing or worked too hard too early under saddle - such as being forced to back up alot, being galloped or jumped too much too young, etc.

--How do you know the horse has hock problems? Is it barn gossip, or did you talk to the owner and she said he has hock problems and needs injections to keep going? Are these cortisone injections or something else? You know, someone might have seen the horse get an antibiotic shot for an infection from a kick or wound, and just started saying all over the barn, 'ooooh...that horse has bad hocks!' You know how barn gossip can be. It can just be all blown out of proportion. People half hear things and just assume and repeat them. Be sure of your facts, but when you are - trying to sell a kid a young horse that already has a bad problem with its hocks - for DRESSAGE - where they have to use their hocks alot....you gotta leave.

She mad when I decided not to buy.

--Is she really mad or is she just being a horse trader, and making a few comments about how great the horse is and how dumb you were to pass him up. Alot of that's not 'mad' but just horse tradin'. And it's up to you to decide how much 'horse tradin'' you want to tolerate. It's pretty typical of bad local trainers that they hustle people real hard - put pressure on them to buy a certain horse, then to let the trainer ride it, there's a lot of that that goes on and to some extent, you have to get a little bit of a thick skin for 1-2 comments, but there's a point beyond which it should not go.

-- A trainer trying to play on a young person's sensitive feelngs about being liked and being befriended by the trainer is a very common, and a very, very low tactic. But at tthe same time,, no matter WHO you train with, you need to get a little bit of the anti 'trainer is my friend' vaccination, and stop thinking that that is necessary or important. The trainer's the trainer, not your friend. You can be polite and friendly, and chit chat but the trainer is your trainer, not your friend. You're there to work, not be pals. You should hate your trainer from time to time, but because he is honest with you and works you hard and insists you buckle down, NOT because he or she is playing games with your head.

The lesson are good. But my old Paint that really is limited in dressage. I need to find a better horse but she will not go to other breeders and look.

--Your old paint might or might not really be limited. You need to not listen to people who AUTOMATICALLY say 'no no no! any horse can do dressage and be great!' but you ALSO need to not automatically believe someone who says, 'this horse is crap'. Your horse might not even score well but he might be ideal for this time in your riding.

--Winning ribbons isn't everything, it's a lot more important to learn how to train and ride so you can do bette rwith the NEXT horse. There's a time and place for every type of horse.

--A horse can be just perfect for where you are at. There's a stage in everyone's riding where 'my old paint' is just perfect. I have had different kinds of horses, a little pony, a well trained older horse, a tougher less trained horse, and a little firecracker, and each one was right for that point in time and pushed me to learn something new. We learn dressage in stages and no one horse is perfect for all those stages. Read 'IN ONE ARENA' book where they talk about this.

She is insisting I buy the other horse.
What do you all think about this. Am I being stupid. Should I do what she telling me to do?

--You should not buy a horse that has hock problems to do dressage. It's that simple. If she's pushing and pressuring you too much, tell her, just tell her as you're putting your horse on the trailer and leaving.

-- A decent trainer does not play games with you , and a decent trainer gives you good advice, not just to buy the horse her friend has for sale and she's getting some money under the table for getting you to buy the horse.

--Bad people are just bad people, dear. You can't change them. No matter how much money you waste on them. There are a lot of small timers who pull this sort of garbage all the time. Ask me how I know...

Tempisx2

[merrygoround]

Whether you stay or leave. Do not buy that horse.

In all wisdom you would be wise to find yourself another trainer.

And buy no horse without a pre purchase exam from an equine practitioner of your choice, not the sellers.

[Kathy Johnson]

I think, like slc did, you could justify everything the trainer did from a different perspective. It all could be considered a normal part of horse trading.

The most important part of your post is the first line: I have lost trust in my trainer. These are your feelings, no matter what the cause. There's nothing wrong with how you feel--it's how you feel. What you do about your feelings is your decision.

Probably the most effective method of feeling better about the situation is to talk to the trainer. Tell her how you feel and why you feel that way. It would help even more if you could listen to her side of the story. Just listen and if you need to respond, tell her only how her actions made you feel.

It takes a lot more courage to face the person head on and talk about feelings than it does to just bolt and run. Think it through. If you just leave, your feelings, your loss of trust and disappointment will still be there right with you. You will just be in a different physical place and still feeling the same resentment toward the trainer.

Internet counseling advice is about like internet training advice, mine included. Take what works for you.

[NoDQhere]

I think, like slc did, you could justify everything the trainer did from a different perspective. It all could be considered a normal part of horse trading.

The most important part of your post is the first line: I have lost trust in my trainer. These are your feelings, no matter what the cause. There's nothing wrong with how you feel--it's how you feel. What you do about your feelings is your decision.

Probably the most effective method of feeling better about the situation is to talk to the trainer. Tell her how you feel and why you feel that way. It would help even more if you could listen to her side of the story. Just listen and if you need to respond, tell her only how her actions made you feel.

It takes a lot more courage to face the person head on and talk about feelings than it does to just bolt and run. Think it through. If you just leave, your feelings, your loss of trust and disappointment will still be there right with you. You will just be in a different physical place and still feeling the same resentment toward the trainer.

Internet counseling advice is about like internet training advice, mine included. Take what works for you.

Well said Kathy! This is very good advice. My advice, don't buy a 4 year old with ANY problems. There are too many nice horses out there with NO problems :yes:.

[Trevelyan96]

You've lost trust in the trainer, so IMHO, its time to leave. If she's going to get mad because you won't buy a horse with good reason, then things are only going to get worse from this point on. I speak from experience.

[Tempisx2]

Thanks for all the great advice. Yes there was a vet exam. He said their where sings for arthritis already. I am going there today and telling her I don't want the horse.
You all right I thought I was good friends with her. My mistake in getting to close to her. I am going to start looking for a new trainer. It will be hard to leave. But I cant trust someone that dose not have my best interest at heart. I put faith in her helping me find a new horse. I should be able to trust her advise in this matter. That is what I am paying her for.
I will just keep riding my paint for the time being. Thanks for all the help.
Time to move on.

[f4leggin]

I bought a horse at 4 that had changes in his hocks and a bone spur - he is 14 or 15 now and doing GP very competitively (ie: winning). He has never had problems with his hocks, but we have maintained his joints. But, he is a dressage horse, not a jumper... He also has a work ethic and character that is rare - which is why I bought him at 4.

The day I quit trusting my trainers to teach me well, and have the best interest of my horses at heart is when I find a new trainer! But, I do not require that they have no drama in the barn or be my friend. And, I have certainly been told things about my riding or horses I didn't want to hear -

I have two thoughts on this - go with your instincts or get a second opinion on the situation from someone who knows.

But if you can't find a way to trust your trainer - leave, leave, leave..

Jill

[slc2]

There are changes and there are changes. If the vet is concerned about the changes he sees making the horse unsuitable for progressive dressage training, he probably IS unsuitable.

alot of it 'depends'. Light, occasional riding, riding at the lower levels without a lot of impulsion or athleticism, lots of time off, or even frequent but short, undemanding rides, a horse with bad hocks may do well for quite some time that way.

If it's a horse you want to take up the levels (and really are set up to do that, and it's not just kind of something you wish for but isn't likely to ever happen), it can be pretty heart breaking to have the horse get to a certain level, and have to start all over again, and find a pet home for the horse. It's one of the most disappointing things in dressage, and it causes a lot of people to just give the heck up on going up the levels and on bringing their own horses along.

Further, I would not take the previous post as proof that it's ok to ignore any and all arthritic changes in the hocks of a 4 year old and assume that it will not be a problem and the horse will get to GP!

My vet has told me that non articular changes, for example, often are not a problem. That means nothing is rubbing on them. Guess how often that happens.

Half of the horses I have owned have had to stop dressage training and be retired early because of arthritic changes in their hocks. They had indications of these changes starting when I had bought them. I couldn't afford anything with better xrays.

These things don't always wind up with the horse a teenager and doing Grand Prix for years to come.

Take my word for it. If your vet is a good vet and he says it's a problem, believe him.

[dalpal]

I have a former trainer who knew I was looking in the 5K range about 8 years ago. Matter of fact, I was considering a TB in the barn that she knew about.

I was untacking the horse one day...when she comes running down the hall yelling for me....This incrediable well known horse was for sale and he was only 65. I said...6500????? She looked at me like I had three heads...No, she said with such disgust...65 THOUSAND. I really pissed her off when I threw back my head in complete laughter and said....I think that's a bit out of my price range.

She was such a horse trader, she'd convince you that a three legged horse would work for you as long as there was a commission to be had.

[Janet]

You need to decide on what the trainer's role is.

There is one trainer I work with that i have a lot of confidence in as an instructor, but not for help finding a new horse.

But that doesn't stop me from taking lessons from her.

[Tempisx2]

Ok,
I told her that I was not buying the horse. My vet told me that the horse will have to have injections the rest of his life. She is very upset with me. The horse is another client. But that is not my problem. I do plan on going to upper level. There are so many things that could go wrong with a horse that has no issue all ready.
I have a good friend that know some breeders that can help me look. It just surprised me that she would want me to buy a horse that has problems. She is always tell me how great of rider I am. That I need a warmblood if I want further my dressage career. At this point I think I have just out grown her and need someone else that has train more than on GP horse. She was great for a beginner but now I think I need to move.
This hole thing has got me thinking a lot about the hole mess.
Thanks for all the help. You guys a great.
Tampisx2

[Manes and Tails]

I know a Paint who could do upper level dressage if trained for it. I sometimes ride a different Paint who is perfectly fine at the lower levels, awesome frame, but probably lacks the reach to go above third level. And a SPB who could easily go to ourth if retrained (He's a hunter).

[slc2]

Doing the work and winning national titles are two different things and there is a lot of ground between being able to do parts of a test and put a whole test together, and a lot more ground between that and really scoring well.

Thing is, scoring well may really be pretty irrelevant. If one wants to learn to train one's own horses and get experience, the horse doesn't have to score in the top five at a show to give you that.

[nhwr]

She is always tell me how great of rider I am. That I need a warmblood if I want further my dressage career. Maybe she doesn't have a warmblood to sell you at the moment.

Seriously, there are trainers and there are brokers.

They both provide valuable services, except when they overlap.

[slc2]

"how great of a rider I am"

Beware the flatterer, for he wanteth your money.

"how I need a warmblood"

Possible. It always raises the ire of those dilletants on the bulletin board, but a warmblood, at SOME point, if he has great natural balance, wonderful gaits and a lot of energy, at SOME point in a rider's development, might be a good choice. But warmbloods can also be very different. Their gaits can be quite big to sit and they require a different sort of management - they grow quite slowly and getting through those young years might not work out too well - if one assumes they're like a smaller, less growthy horse and works them too hard too soon, or too much on the longe line or in the round pen.

For most people who have some riding desire and talent, and have started to outgrow the limited or older, nice horse they have, 'going to a breeder' like you are describing, getting an unschooled youngster, is the worst possible thing they can do.

Don't do it.

What you need now is an 'inbetween horse'.

To tell the truth, if you really want to develop as a rider, what you need now is not at all a fancy warmblood youngster, but a horse that is trained to second level or so, and middle aged, and NOT very fancy, that you can show at the lower levels - training, first level, second and maybe third, if you are very lucky.

This horse need not be a warmblood in fact it would be better if he wasn't, especially if you don't have an unlimited budget. As long as he has nice free gaits and is well schooled and EASY TO RIDE, he will be a good logical next step. He can be 10, 12 or 13 years old, he should NOT be young. He should have been shown and been there done that. He needs to be correctly schooled, he should not be a horse your friends all look at and go, 'Oh my god he's so awesome!' and fall all over you about. He should be your next sensible step. Don't go nuts here.

Where most people go wrong is they buy inappropriate horses. They never progress, and they develop bad 'defensive riding' habits. SAVE YOUR MONEY. IF YOU DO WELL YOU ARE GOING TO NEED A HELL OF ALOT OF MONEY TO BUY A HORSE IN ABOUT 5 YEARS OR SO. BE SMART.

You are NOT going to go from your limited paint horse to a fancy young warmblood successfully. DON"T DO IT.

You have a LOT more to learn right now. You need to get on a well trained, average moving, quiet horse, and show him at training, first and second, for 2, 3, 4 years.

What you are talking about doing is the WRONG WAY to go about developing yourself as a rider.

What your TRAINER is talking about you doing, buying a 4 year old that may not stay sound, is ALSO the wrong thing to do.

But what you're talking about doing is also a very bad idea.

Your progression should look like this - older limited horse (and what have you done with him? Taken some lessons? Put him in a few schooling shows at training level? You never actually said what you've done with him!)

But let's assume - you've taken some lessons, and tried to learn some dressage on him, and perhaps fooled around with a few little dressage things - getting him to accept the bit, probably not going very forward, maybe a little leg yield, a little lengthening. Is that it? I am going to assume it hasn't been really that much, because frankly, any trainer who is insisting you buy an arthritic 4 year old isn't giving you as good a lessons as you think she is.

You do NOT want to go and get a baby now. Don't go from a really bad plan (lame inappropriate horse) to an equally bad plan (maybe sounder, still inappropriate).

Get your not so fancy in between horse, show and learn the tests from training to third level. Then your NEXT horse is ANOTHER in between horse, a scored-well-locally trained, quiet, easy to ride horse that has been showed at 4th, possibly PSG, and you are going to show him at HIS Levels and then go for your NEXT horse. Most likely, NONE of these should be warmblood horses. An appendix quarter horse or other domestic breed would be far, far cheaper and there are many around and for sale now.

There are many, many horses on the road to training and becoming a 'great' rider. Get your NEXT LOGICAL STEP, not a big mistake.

[onelanerode]

Ok,
I told her that I was not buying the horse. ... She is very upset with me. The horse is another client.
Tampisx2

I bet she's upset ... there went her shot at getting double commission. :lol:

[slc2]

I'm not laughing. I'll bet a very nice lunch that's exactly what's going on, ask me how I know.

[Tempisx2]

Well she told me today that I have made a big mistake. She is telling everyone all about it. Trying to make me look bad. Did not take her word.
I need to move my horse and get away from all this insane drama. I just can't believe believe this is happing.
:confused:

[slc2]

Just about everyone who wants to get somewhere in dressage has dealt with someone like your trainer. Your job now is to get a different trainer.

This does happen alot. It's not whether it happens, it's how you learn from it and what you do next. You also have to learn from bad experiences as well as good ones.

There's a lot more to being successful in dressage than just riding. Being organized, being willing to work hard, getting yourself surrounded by people that actually help you, rather than helping themselves to your money, LOL.

[onelanerode]

I'm not laughing. I'll bet a very nice lunch that's exactly what's going on, ask me how I know.

Probably the same way I do. :rolleyes: :sigh:

We need a "sarcastic smile" icon.

OP, just move your horse and get away from the drama and unprofessional behavior. Then take your time finding a new trainer. Ask around, watch some clinics and lessons, go to some shows and watch students and their trainers interact. You'll know when you've found the right person.

[DiscoMom]

I agree...the trainer is upset at losing the double commission. Just move on and find a different trainer. Good luck to you!

[stryder]

She is telling everyone all about it. Trying to make me look bad.
I need to move my horse and get away from all this insane drama. I just can't believe believe this is happing.
:confused:

You are on your way out, which will be better for you. Get far away. But before you go, I would take a moment to bring her back to her senses by reminding her that she has more to lose in this than you do. You need to find another trainer. She needs to find more clients to replace you. But if she does not shut her mouth about you, you may feel compelled to explain to everyone who mentions it to you, that she is upset because you did not buy the inappropriate horse she wanted to force on you.

One pays a trainer to be honest with them. She has violated that trust with you, and is not worthy of your business.

Good luck.

[twofatponies]

And I agree fully with the poster who said DON'T go straight for a high level warmblood right away. I've seen tons of people start with an easy, older horse, take lessons for a few years, get into dressage, do a few schooling shows, and then bam, they buy a 5 year old fancy warmblood with the potential for PSG. But that's not a level the rider will be at for years! And they've spent 10s of thousands on a horse only the trainer can really ride well, and that they can barely manage a trot on, and he spooks, and they have to ride in draw reins to keep him on the bit and so on.

Get a solid, experienced mid-level older horse as your second horse, and take that one as far as it can go. THEN move on to a more advanced horse. You'll have a lot more fun and success that way!

Good luck with a new trainer. Your current trainer is very rude to make you feel bad about turning down this purchase! She should have YOUR best interests at heart, not her own!!

[lpcutter]

I have to agree with Hazelnut, ALWAYS trust your instincts....

[sid]

I agree with Janet. There are few horse "professionals" (which is a loose term in the horse world) who are expert or even qualified in EVERY aspect of it. There are excellent riders I would never trust to manage a barn or horse care, there are good trainers who don't know what is abnormal on a radiograph (and thus are not the best in helping buy a horse), there outstanding barn managers who are crappy riders, there are wpnderful riders/instructors who are not good at bringing up and training young horses.

Just because someone hangs out their shingle in ONE venue, and are successful at it, doesn't necessarily qualify them as expert in another of client servicing , whether it be for horse care, horse training, horse buying, horse handling -- 3 different things.

Many of those who have decided to make the business of horses their sole livelihood, will often step into areas in which they are not uniquely qualified --sometimes just because they want to be helpful, other times because the pressure of trying to make more money sends them that way...particularly with eager and niave clients.

As others have said, trust your instincts. If you are not comfortable, there's a reason for it. A real "professional" would not put a client in a position to feel that way in the first place.

[Viva]

One pays a trainer to be honest with them. She has violated that trust with you, and is not worthy of your business.

Good luck.[/QUOTE]

Stryder, you are so right...if she's violated tempi's trust (and I do believe she's seeking double commission, which is unethical to begin with), it doesn't matter about the horse, you need a new trainer. She's disrespectful, and this sport is way too expensive to PAY to be treated like that.
As a trainer, I have a very clear guideline with people I buy horses for: If we try a horse and you like it but I hate it, don't buy it--I can probably see something you've missed. That's why you're paying my commission. If we try a horse and I love it, but you don't, then don't buy it. You're the owner, I'm not. Eventually we'll find something we both agree on, but in the end, you have to love it because you're writing the checks. (Heavy emphasis on the "s" at the end of that word!!!) I'm here to find you a horse you love, not to find you a horse that I love so I can ride it.

[goeslikestink]

I agree with Janet. There are few horse "professionals" (which is a loose term in the horse world) who are expert or even qualified in EVERY aspect of it. There are excellent riders I would never trust to manage a barn or horse care, there are good trainers who don't know what is abnormal on a radiograph (and thus are not the best in helping buy a horse), there outstanding barn managers who are crappy riders, there are wpnderful riders/instructors who are not good at bringing up and training young horses.

Just because someone hangs out their shingle in ONE venue, and are successful at it, doesn't necessarily qualify them as expert in another of client servicing , whether it be for horse care, horse training, horse buying, horse handling -- 3 different things.

Many of those who have decided to make the business of horses their sole livelihood, will often step into areas in which they are not uniquely qualified --sometimes just because they want to be helpful, other times because the pressure of trying to make more money sends them that way...particularly with eager and niave clients.

As others have said, trust your instincts. If you are not comfortable, there's a reason for it. A real "professional" would not put a client in a position to feel that way in the first place.


agree with that

[goeslikestink]

One pays a trainer to be honest with them. She has violated that trust with you, and is not worthy of your business.

Good luck.

Stryder, you are so right...if she's violated tempi's trust (and I do believe she's seeking double commission, which is unethical to begin with), it doesn't matter about the horse, you need a new trainer. She's disrespectful, and this sport is way too expensive to PAY to be treated like that.
As a trainer, I have a very clear guideline with people I buy horses for: If we try a horse and you like it but I hate it, don't buy it--I can probably see something you've missed. That's why you're paying my commission. If we try a horse and I love it, but you don't, then don't buy it. You're the owner, I'm not. Eventually we'll find something we both agree on, but in the end, you have to love it because you're writing the checks. (Heavy emphasis on the "s" at the end of that word!!!) I'm here to find you a horse you love, not to find you a horse that I love so I can ride it.[/QUOTE]


exactly shes taking you for a mug------ glad you took advice and not be fooled by one that only thinks of $ and not one that thinks of his/her clientel

look for a place with better facilties go to a few yards or ask on here there are people good people on her that are decent trianers and some hold english qualifications ie bhsAI bHSII
so ther might be one on here near you ie decent trianer

[goeslikestink]

Well she told me today that I have made a big mistake. She is telling everyone all about it. Trying to make me look bad. Did not take her word.
I need to move my horse and get away from all this insane drama. I just can't believe believe this is happing.
:confused:

i want to add something----- ok your not confused ok and dont let the bullshit upset you into thinking of changing your mind ok she lost out period and you hvent been taken for a mug

you came on here as you had doubts---- and a gut feeling that what was happening to you wasnt right but to clarifief your own feelings you ask us for help on our thoughts and opnions which in truth have backed up your gut feelings

so your in the right and she in the wrong thing is to learn from it , be wiser now
you know what you want but wait until you have moved your lovely paint horse as i have a funny feeling that perhaps your paint isnt as lmited as the trianer that want you to buy another horse which hapens to have a soundness issue its all about money and what she can get out of you

another trianer might say different about your paint horse so move to better facilites see whats about and wait for tad before making any more deccsions keeping the option open of getting another horse so if you explain to new yard and trianer that you thinking of getting another horse later then the option of the stables and triaining is open but you want time to settle you current paint horse in befoer you think of another one this will be at least one month to six weeks thus allowing you to have the time needed to spend with the new trianer and letting her access you and your horse in depth bet it changes to being a better horse and not as limited as you think
look id she a con artist in trying to get money from you ie double wammy then her accessment of isnt right either of you nor the horse so wait till you move give yourself time to heal by her untruths and time to work things out for yourself ok

[nhwr]

I was particularly struck by the drama comment because I have had a lot of experience with it at barns where I have trained. There is a certain personality type that learns quickly that if you can keep the anxiety or drama at a certain level, people are a bit off balance and therefore easier to control. I think as dressage enthusiasts we may be particularly susceptible to this. We are interested in pursuing excellence and so rely on the input of others for evaluation. I once asked an Olympic rider I clinic-ed with if I needed a different horse to advanced. The response was "It is my job to teach you on your horse. There is nothing wrong with the one you are on, so let's get to it."

Any trainer that implies they can't teach you on the horse that you own (provided it is sane and sound) can't teach, period. You might advance more quickly on a different horse. But there is almost always something to learn in a given situation.

The best way to create loyalty among students isn't to keep them off balance, it is to achieve tangible results with the horse they own. Not every horse is an Olympic prospect, true. But every horse and rider can learn and grow.

[Sabine]

Well she told me today that I have made a big mistake. She is telling everyone all about it. Trying to make me look bad. Did not take her word.
I need to move my horse and get away from all this insane drama. I just can't believe believe this is happing.
:confused:

Do it noW! every day you wait- you are exposed to that sick psycho emotional warfare- which really has nothing to do with what you want to achieve-...a peaceful training environment that is productive and shows progress with the horse you have....MOVE ON NOW! and don't be a afraid- you will feel greatly relieved- the 1st is Monday in a week- go for it!!

[Thomas_1]

Well she told me today that I have made a big mistake. What did you say? Did she say why??

I'm wondering why she'd want to totally brass off a client and run the risk of losing your business.

If indeed you made a big mistake then she needs to get over it because it's your money and your mistake to make. I'm thinking you need to smile sweetly and tell her that.

IMO anyone who bought a 4 year old with a history of hock problems would be bonkers in any circumstances. Do it when you've ambition to do something high level and you'd just be wasting your money and time. Likewise anyone who already had a perfectly serviceable horse but wanted for sure to do something higher level than currntly would be perfectly mad buying a 4 year old. If you know for sure what you want to do and are ready and able to do it then you'd buy a horse that had known capability and not something that needed a lot of work and that at best would only have potential.

Finally I'm thinking you need to spend some time and effort shopping round for a new trainer (rather than a new horse) that might better suit what you want and need.

[slc2]

As I said, only some mild hock problems can be maintained in light work - and a 'program' should be arranged ONLY AFTER THE HORSE IS EVALUATED BY A VET AND IT IS DETERMINED a 'program' is a good way to deal with the specific problem he has. Light frequent lower level dressage work MAY keep a horse comfortable. It also may not. And I would, if i thought a horse was uncomfortable, not work him til I had that vet exam. Not just a glance with the horses bi-annual shots, a real workup by a very good leg man.

"There is a certain personality type that learns quickly that if you can keep the anxiety or drama at a certain level, people are a bit off balance and therefore easier to control"

This is so true. A controlling, manipulative person sets a stage, nothing happens without them wanting to, and everything that happens at the barn is used to control people.

I recall many years ago back east, a friend of mine had invited three riding students of her barn to her house for dinner. The trainer actually hijacked them all, told them that she was indisposed, and took them out to dinner. She wanted complete control over the students. When another rider/trainer came into the area, she would make sure her students knew how badly that person rode and trained, and what a fake he or she was, to the point of telling people the person had committed various unsavory crimes - anything at all was fair game. It was actually incredible, not only how transparent her attempts to control people were, but also, how incredibly successful she was.

The trouble is, that trainer that pressures you not to show at the higher level, or kicks you upstairs when you're languishing at one level, that trainer that wants you to be firmer with yiour horse, that jumps on to correct your horse and causes him to have a complete hissy fit before your very eyes, that tells you to stick with that traditional equipment instead of the short cuts your friends urge you to take, the one that keeps you doing 'boring' work on basics, or encourages you to get a new horse when your current one is getting overfaced or just barely starting to have physical problems, to work harder, to do all sorts of unpleasant things you don't want to do - that trainer may very well be trying to help you and telling you exactly what you need to do to meet your goals.

[Tempisx2]

Thanks you all for the input. It has help me a lot. I am moving to a new barn in CA. I am very excited about the new move. I am going to take mine time in finding a new trainer. I have rode dressage now for two years. My horse is very limited. He was shown as a english pl. horse. There is a lot going on there. But I have been riding other people horses at the barn. I always take a lesson when I ride the other horses. That has been a good experience for me. I know I still have a lot to learn. I do want a warmblood. I think you are all right to look for a med level train horse. But I don't have that much to spend. This is why I am looking for a younger horse. But after listing to you all I think it might be best to save until I find one. The reason why I was excited to look for one is she told me I was so good with all the other horses. That if I found a horse I could eventually try with her help to go pro. I like working with the horses and seam to have a knack for it. But I am also 45 years old. When I think about all that she said I think she was just blowing smoke up my ass! I think she just wanted someone else to ride the horses for her. Iy just makes me so mad now.
Tempisx2

[Beasmom]

This is a bit off-track, but don't despair about finding a warmblood at a reasonable price. With the economy in the present state, there are lots of horses in need of homes. Good horses.

Network through trainers, breeders, friends. I found a wonderful horse through a friend who needed a bit of rehabilitation and was offered for sale at a fraction of his original price. This friend found a schoolmaster the same way. In fact, he was free! The schoolmaster needed some TLC, but now he's a perfectly lovely horse for her to advance with.

You may find a diamond in the rough, or a horse (or owner) who's fallen on hard times and just needs a little help. That can be a very satisfying experience, rehabbing a horse. One word of caution: work with a GOOD vet when evaluating such prospects.

[3horsemom]

good luck.
i have been following this thread with interest as we have experienced a similiar situation with a trainer. the best of coth has weighed in and given great advice.

[nhwr]

Your saddle doesn't fit.
Your vet isn't really very good.
The shoeing isn't quite right.
Your horse needs to be a chiro adjustment, acupuncture, injections, expensive supplements ...
You need a different (expensive) pad.
Your feeding program isn't right.
Your horse needs his teeth done by an expert.
So & so doesn't know what they are talking about.
You need a different horse.


A couple of these things are probably true, but when you (and everyone else at your barn) start hearing a majority of these complaints consistently, it a trainer with a control issue.

Good trainers don't make excuses. They make sure the horse is comfortable and work through everything else.

[Knothead]

The minute I would have gotten wind that "she told everyone" (about making a mistake) I would have (a) told her what that my decisions are no one else's business regardless of if they are right or wrong and (b) told her we are parting ways.
I cannot stand a trainer talking about one client to other clients. Unless it was something really positive like, "So and so has really come a long way."

[stryder]

Your saddle doesn't fit.
Your vet isn't really very good.
The shoeing isn't quite right.
Your horse needs to be a chiro adjustment, acupuncture, injections, expensive supplements ...
You need a different (expensive) pad.
Your feeding program isn't right.
Your horse needs his teeth done by an expert.
So & so doesn't know what they are talking about.
You need a different horse.


A couple of these things are probably true, but when you (and everyone else at your barn) start hearing a majority of these complaints consistently, it a trainer with a control issue.

Good trainers don't make excuses. They make sure the horse is comfortable and work through everything else.

So true. "A poor workman blames his tools."

[dresstar]

Originally Posted by nhwr
Your saddle doesn't fit.
Your vet isn't really very good.
The shoeing isn't quite right.
Your horse needs to be a chiro adjustment, acupuncture, injections, expensive supplements ...
You need a different (expensive) pad.
Your feeding program isn't right.
Your horse needs his teeth done by an expert.
So & so doesn't know what they are talking about.
You need a different horse.

I was at the same barn! The first one I had to get new horse. Got that, needed everything else. She was the most negative person I have every met. She still is. Then I move to a new trainer. I was there all this year. I drove 3 hours to get there and would stay for two days. It seam to be like family. But how wrong was I. Everyone was talking about everyone. He seamed to be better but still drama. With all the clients and others in the same barn. People sticking their noses where it did not belong.
It was hard because I thought we where all such good friends. The one before that I thought was my best friend. I have learn that I need to keep it bisness like, don't get involve with everyone. I have started with a new trainer and he is all about working and not trying to be your friend. I will try that an see how it works. Also before you pick a new one. I would look at then close. How many horses have they trained to GP...How many students. How long have they been a pro. What is their back ground. Watch their students and see how well they ride. I have learn a lot. The trainer has to be a classical dressage trainer all the way. No fancy trixs.
I hope you find what you are looking for. Good luck moving on. :)

[Elegante E]

OP - don't feel bad about riding all those horses! That was a good thing, probably the best lessons one can get. So think that you were paying for their efforts, not the trainers.

Good luck in your new barn.

[SisterToSoreFoot]

I also wouldn't take this trainer's opinion of your horse as gold. She's trying to sell you another horse, so of course "your" horse isn't good enough. You might find that with a new trainer you and your present horse could make fresh progress. There are a lot of nontraditional breeds that are quite capable if they are trained under a rider/instructor who puts the effort in.

Not to plug my own article, but I wrote an article in this month's Dressage Today (transitions section) about why I didn't buy a new dressage horse when I could, and what a good time I had improving my own horse.

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

SistertoSoreFoot - I read and truly enjoyed your article!!! And I feel the same way. I have learned so much, and improved so much by doing what I can to make myself and my horse better.

Besides, I can buy the ribbons I want from Hodges, and it's cheaper than going to a rated show, AND I don't have to wear white breeches or braid my horse's mane!

[murphyluv]

Thanks you all for the input. It has help me a lot. I am moving to a new barn in CA. I am very excited about the new move. I am going to take mine time in finding a new trainer. I have rode dressage now for two years. My horse is very limited. He was shown as a english pl. horse. There is a lot going on there. But I have been riding other people horses at the barn. I always take a lesson when I ride the other horses. That has been a good experience for me. I know I still have a lot to learn. I do want a warmblood. I think you are all right to look for a med level train horse. But I don't have that much to spend. This is why I am looking for a younger horse. But after listing to you all I think it might be best to save until I find one. The reason why I was excited to look for one is she told me I was so good with all the other horses. That if I found a horse I could eventually try with her help to go pro. I like working with the horses and seam to have a knack for it. But I am also 45 years old. When I think about all that she said I think she was just blowing smoke up my ass! I think she just wanted someone else to ride the horses for her. Iy just makes me so mad now.
Tempisx2

I also agree about not being in such a hurry to get a young warmblood. I think it's great that you're moving. Ihope you got good recommendations for this trainer and facility. Please don't be in a rush to get a new horse- if this new place has school horses, and your horse is sound, continue riding them. Build a relationship with this new trainer- follow your instincts and see if they truly have YOUR best interests at heart and understand your goals. Only then continue your search for a new horse. And I wouldn't mention that you're seriously looking for a new horse right away- who knows, the new trainer may see you as $$. You CAN buy a 1st, 2nd level horse for not that much money- may not be extremely fancy, but more capable than your horse to teach you what you need to know. As long as its still sound, you can then sell and buy your fancier young horse in a couple of years.

Making a step from a paint, english pleasure horse, to a young WB is a HUGE step. Warmbloods, no offense to anyone, grow up very sloooowly. They're minds are still in the silly, teenager stage, and can be unpredictable. At least to me- I prefer a young qh with a good mind over a 4 year old wb. Especially for a novice rider. I have seen WAAAY too many novice riders on wb horses that can't sit the trot, and probably won't ever be able to. The trainer ends up riding and showing the horse.
Don't rule out other breeds. You have probably seen the threads about non-wb types doing very well in dressage.
And, also, after I have lost trust in someone, like your trainer, ANYTHING they have ever said to me becomes suspect. She may have been blowing smoke up your rear, to get you to buy that young wb, so she can make money off of it- then show it herself.