Beginning Dressage Lessons

[jrchloe]

I have 15 years of Saddle Seat riding experience and have decided to look into dressage lessons to improve my riding and hopefully in the future my training of horses. What should I expect taking dressage lessons on lesson horses? I want to learn how to get the horse to look for contact, performing the exercises correctly, work on the clarity/strength of my aids, and being more in tune with controlling the horse's movements. Would this just be considered basic dressage?

[J-Lu]

Cool!!! yep, that's basic dressage. The lesson horse should already know the first two things that you list so you can work on the last two things that you list. The thing that might feel wierd is that the dressage saddle will put your legs underneath your body. Aren't they pretty forward in saddleseat?

[jrchloe]

Ideally the legs are just slight more forward than dressage (I want to stress slightly) because the stirrups are a little shorter and the saddle is longer. I don't like to toot my own horn but when I did ride all the time I became pretty adaptable to any saddle as long as my stirrup leathers where correct.

Thanks! I am so excited.:D What else should I try to add on to my list of what I could learn in my lessons?

[Trixie's mom]

Hi there,
I think you'll enjoy the sport of dressage. Riding saddleseat at the world level is certainly commendable!! I have no doubt that you will pick it up quickly.
I'll be in Tampa next week at a show with two half arabs that I compete. Feel free to come by and hang out. I have a client that is showing dressage for the first time after showing western pleasure on the national level for years...it's a really fun show. PM me if you'd like to swing by and I'll let you know where we are stabled.

[merrygoround]

In my experience the transition from WP compared to saddleseat is far easier.

A good reiner or WP still sits in a similar position, albeit they do use a straighter leg. Former SS riders, tend to sit back, and straighten their legs when the chips are down. Far harder to retrain.

How ever your goals are great ones. So welcome aboard. :yes:

[Equibrit]

Riding saddleseat at the world level is certainly commendable!!


????

[cu.at.x]

Just wanted to comment that it's wonderful that you want to use dressage to improve your horses and your riding. I hope you find a superb instructor. Let us know how it goes (i.e. pictures! :D)

[Trixie's mom]

equibrit...what are you trying to say? i'm confused...

[jrchloe]

Equibrit she read it on my profile.

Well I have found a great instructor who understands my background so it has been an easily adjustment. I am riding this cute little morgan who is very sweet but likes to get out of work which I like because he makes me work and think all the time. I am still trying to get him on the bit but its slowly getting better. My main problem starts with where I hold my hands. When they are like belly button height I'm good (can get him on the bit and fix his getting out of work tantumes) but when I try to lower them in more of a "dressage" position I lose my posture and he takes advantage of me. I feel like such a riding novice *embarassing*. I am also learning about rythum which is cool. I am very happy about my decision to start these lessons.

Anybody have any tips on being able to keep your shoulders back when a horse pulls you forward and down (I'm used to forward and out on SS horses)?

[Reiter]

If you're using your seat more the horse will not be able to pull you forward. Lower your hands to where there is a straight line from your elbow to the bit, this is perfect. If your hands are higher it throws your center of gravity off and the horse can easily unseat you!
Good luck! Dressage can be very rewarding (and frustrating)! ;)

[jrchloe]

If you're using your seat more the horse will not be able to pull you forward. Lower your hands to where there is a straight line from your elbow to the bit, this is perfect. If your hands are higher it throws your center of gravity off and the horse can easily unseat you!

But see this is the opposite for me. If my hands are up I have great balance and I can use my body but when I try to do what you describe I try to use my back and stomach but it is so much easier for the horse to pull me forward.

[slc2]

"But see this is the opposite for me...."

To do dressage, you need to change.

You need to change how you sit on the horse, where you carry your hands, and how you balance. You can't balance in the same way you did in saddle seat, and you can't carry your hands that high up.

In saddle seat, lifting your hands puts you back on your seat. You feel comfortable, you feel balanced.

In dressage, you sit with your heels, hip and shoulder in a line. You are 99.999 of the time carrying your hands a great deal ower than you're used to from saddle seat.

In dressage, you don't balance yourself by raising your hands, but by putting your feet under you, you sit down on your seat, and that makes you secure, ,but your balance comes not from lifting your hands and shifting your weight back, but from sitting with your feet under you.

Watch some really good dressage riders sometime. You'll see. It's just different. And if you want to ride a different style, you can't say, 'but that doesn't work for me'. You have to just change yourself so it does work for you.

[leakyb]

Equibrit she read it on my profile.

Well I have found a great instructor who understands my background so it has been an easily adjustment. I am riding this cute little morgan who is very sweet but likes to get out of work which I like because he makes me work and think all the time. I am still trying to get him on the bit but its slowly getting better. My main problem starts with where I hold my hands. When they are like belly button height I'm good (can get him on the bit and fix his getting out of work tantumes) but when I try to lower them in more of a "dressage" position I lose my posture and he takes advantage of me. I feel like such a riding novice *embarassing*. I am also learning about rythum which is cool. I am very happy about my decision to start these lessons.

Anybody have any tips on being able to keep your shoulders back when a horse pulls you forward and down (I'm used to forward and out on SS horses)?

I would recommend you take some basic longe lessons....no stirrups, no reins...just to work on basic position at first. You can work on half halts and transitions without having to worry about steering. Then add reins, then add stirrups. Everyone benefits from longe lessons no matter what the level.

[SillyHorse]

When ridden correctly, there is a straight line from the bit to the elbow in saddle seat. The horses' heads are carried higher, so the hands must be carried higher as well, to maintain the straight line. Often you see saddle seat riders with their hands very high, breaking the straight line. That is incorrect.

We had a saddle seat rider at our barn for awhile. Lovely gal, but rode with her hands very high, and piano hands, too. It wasn't very pretty, and it wasn't correct.

[jrchloe]

When ridden correctly, there is a straight line from the bit to the elbow in saddle seat. The horses' heads are carried higher, so the hands must be carried higher as well, to maintain the straight line. Often you see saddle seat riders with their hands very high, breaking the straight line. That is incorrect.

Are you speaking to me? Because you are preaching to the choir, haha.

I am trying to work on the dressage headset straight line but its just not very strong because I am easily pulled forward. What are some tips to keep upright with lower hands when the horse pulls you down? Are my reins just too short and I need to get comfortable with my upper arms and elbows more beside me and hold with my back and abs with pelvis not tipped back but with my weight almost back?

[SillyHorse]

No, not speaking to you -- the picture on your website with Callaway's Will Gillen demonstrates a beautiful example of the straight line from the bit to the elbow.

You will find that dressage requires a lot more seat than saddle seat does. And your core has to be strong so that you can use your seat while your hands are completely independent.

[slc2]

Saddleseat riders also are expected to have independent hands and a strong core. The 'good hands and seat' classes have been in saddle seat longer than the dressage equitation classes have been around. Independent hands are prized in saddle seat.

But the position is different, and that means different muscles are used in a different way. It's just different. If you're comfortable riding saddle seat, now you have to find a whole different way of using your muscles and sitting on the horse.

In saddle seat you rock back on your butt and raise your hands. This rocks the rider's weight back and allows his horse to lift his front legs. Your lower leg is off the horse, and very often, far more forward than in dressage.

In dressage, the horse is not collected or gathered together (or even, ridden at the lower levels, before collection) in this same way. Instead of rocking the rider's weight back and lifting the hands, the horse's hind legs gradually take more weight by tucking his hind quarters under him and rounding his back far more. The rider's weight is not shifted as far back - the saddle sits closer to the horse's withers, and an entirely different method is used to lighten the forehand.

In dressage, you 'stand over your legs' just as if you were standing with slightly bent knees, yet with your upper body upright - on a set of parallel bars and didn't want to topple backward or forward off the bars, with your toes turned forward to open your hip joints up and loosen and soften them.

And yet, you keep your legs very soft without bracing your ankles.

It's 'a little bit of everything' that holds you on the dressage horse in the dressage position...keeping your feet directly under your hips and shoulders, your weight on your butt without your upper body leaned forward ('balance'), and having a little friction of your leg wrapped softly around the horse like a raw steak slapped on a car windshield.

Your arms remain with your elbows at your side and bent, with just a slight reaching forward of your hands. The person with very short arms has to make a lot of adjustments to get his hands down low enough that they are in front of his saddle and very, very slightly above the saddle pommel, with the thumbs upper most.

It is not enough to tell folks to 'keep a straight line with the elbow to the bit', either, especially if you're trying to transition your horse and yourself to dressage. In positions as different as hunt seat, dressage and western, you hear 'keep a straight line to the bit'. It's meaningless statement without understanding how different all these angles are in the different riding styles.

Because the carriage of the horse's neck is entirely different in dressage. The whole head and neck is carried quite a bit lower and more forward-reaching. Even at the top levels of dressage, the horse's nose isn't higher than his hips. When the neck gradually raises slightly higher at the top levels of dressage, it's' pushed up by the hind quarters in an entirely different way than saddle seat, with a much more rounded back on the horse and tucked under hind quarters, with the horse's hind legs stepping further forward under his body.

[kpony]

yes the upper arms and elbows - if you are not accustomed to keeping them more with your body it will be hard to counter the forward and down.

[khorsem]

Chloe,
I am going through the same thing!!! I've ridden, trained, and competed SS for my whole life and started taking dressage lessons in August. I struggled with what you are, and trot to canter transitions. I recently started to settle into a dressage seat more out of function than form. The best way that I can describe it is to have your elbows near your hips and push your hips towards your elbow (and as deeply into the saddle as you can) at the same time. Everything you've done saddle seat will change and feel weird because you are using your lower back/hips/butt actively going forward instead of sitting up/back out of the horse's way. When you get to the seat that you should have for dressage, you'll find that magic things happen and your horse will be seeking the bit and round up with just a bit of leg instead of using your hands so much. As much as your hands seem to be the problem, I can almost guarantee that's not the case - just a symptom of the problem.

I think that one of my biggest adjustments (so far) has been to the difference in horse - it's easier to push a ss horse up into the bridle because you don't have to push. At all. You're on something explosive, so it's more of a sit tight and Capture all of that explosiveness into where you want it kind of thing - but once you get it and figure out how to use the lower half of your body, that won't seem like the case anymore. I know it gets frustrating, but you'll get it! (And may be come addicted as I have)

[Tonja]

jrchloe wrote:
What are some tips to keep upright with lower hands when the horse pulls you down?
Lynne Sprinsky wrote a couple of excellent articles that explain the use of the hands/core/seat.

Discovering Your "Kreuz", by Lynne Sprinsky (http://www.ridingart.com/discovering_your_Kreuz.htm) and Are Your Seatbones Forward? A Test, by Lynne Sprinsky (http://www.ridingart.com/are_your_seatbones_forward.htm)

[slc2]

When the horse pulls you down so hard you lose your position, something is going very wrong with the riding.

A lot of not getting pulled out of position starts with not trying to get the horse to carry his head too high, not keeping the reins too short for that horse's conformation, having a very steady hand, and not having too fixed and immobile or 'dead' of a hand on the reins, there needs to be a little bit of give and flexibility in the connection between the horse and rider through the reins, without completely giving, where the horse gets the idea he can or should pull the reins down.

Normally, horses pull down quite often when being ridden in dressage, at least they should, as one hopes they aren't pulling their neck in and letting the reins fall in a loop, but always trying to take the rein a little bit. If you are not used to riding a horse on a contact, it may feel to you as if the horse si pulling down, when he isn't.

Too, it can be a matter of confusion. They either can't figure out when the horse wants them to stretch, or associate stretching with the end of work and think they are done.

It takes coaching from a riding instructor who is there, watching you ride, to 'tune' what you're doing and help you develop a feel for when to give and how much.

[khorsem]

When the horse pulls you down so hard you lose your position, something is going very wrong with the riding.


I agree - no matter what discipline, if you're losing your seat when the horse pulls A) You are riding with your hands and not your seat and/or B) Something is going wrong that your horse is yanking on you like that. Understandable when you're in a new and different seat that you may be scrambling a bit, but maybe some lunge lessons would help to find your seat without your hands?

[slc2]

"A) You are riding with your hands and not your seat and/or B) Something is going wrong that your horse is yanking on you like that. U"

Mmmmm...I don't think this is totally it. With the convert from saddle seat, it's very likely he's raising his hands up and thinking his horse should have his head quite high, and and he may be very unsteady in the hands trying to change to the new position, and not having those muscles developed to sit in that new position you expect him to fuss the horse some...which is why he should do this on a horse that is a pretty unflappable customer.

Keep in mind, a saddle seat person doesn't ride a horse on the same sort of contact, or the horse carrying the bit and connection like a dressage horse. The two of them are going to have some pretty big misunderstandings, it may mean nothing else other than 'keep taking lessons, you'll get it, it takes time'.

But...well...more generally, just forgetting this person's problems for a moment....horses DO pull in training, and really there is a type of horse and a time in his training where he should, the alternative is making him 'prematurely light' and that means 'crooked'. It is a 'good problem to have', and it's a good thing the horse is confident in going to the bridle. He may have tons of impulsion and power going to the rider's hand, if he's straight and forward, especially if he's a big powerful youngster in that choo choo train phase between first and third level, where you've made him strong and are having a tough time figuring out what to do with it all. There is a type of horse and a point in his training where he is just going to have a strong contact, and the rider just has to meet him.

You want a horse with eagerness to do his work, and he may WANT TO GO...that isn't such a bad thing. But it takes a lot of skill to 'play that', and not just wind up bracing in the saddle and getting defensive...and it takes a pretty stupendous coordination of the aids and giving a heavy fronted horse a whole hell of alot of energy if he's ever going to do anything other than haul you around on the forehand...It's very hard taking all that and turning it into impulsion (half halted and controlled like a powerful spring storing energy). There are horses that pull like trains, and you just live in half halt hell, and if you slow them down, they get heavier, :). Not all horses have natural balance. Some horses, you have to create it for them.

[jrchloe]

I have a good instructor but even with someone telling me I am one of those people that just have to figure it out. From what it sounds like I am just riding too short because I am used to bringing the horse up to me instead of letting him go down. Its getting way better each time I get on. I also think because I have been off a horse for 2 years that my lower back is weak. I am only on my 5th lesson, haha. And I do feel all blumly and unsure which I haven't felt in like 10 years.

Thanks khorsem have your elbows near your hips and push your hips towards your elbow (and as deeply into the saddle as you can) at the same time. that makes sense and I will try that next time.

[khorsem]

"A) You are riding with your hands and not your seat and/or B) Something is going wrong that your horse is yanking on you like that. U"

Mmmmm...I don't think this is totally it. With the convert from saddle seat, it's very likely he's raising his hands up and thinking his horse should have his head quite high, and and he may be very unsteady in the hands trying to change to the new position, and not having those muscles developed to sit in that new position you expect him to fuss the horse some...which is why he should do this on a horse that is a pretty unflappable customer.

Keep in mind, a saddle seat person doesn't ride a horse on the same sort of contact, or the horse carrying the bit and connection like a dressage horse. The two of them are going to have some pretty big misunderstandings, it may mean nothing else other than 'keep taking lessons, you'll get it, it takes time'.

But...well...more generally, just forgetting this person's problems for a moment....horses DO pull in training, and really there is a type of horse and a time in his training where he should, the alternative is making him 'prematurely light' and that means 'crooked'. It is a 'good problem to have', and it's a good thing the horse is confident in going to the bridle. He may have tons of impulsion and power going to the rider's hand, if he's straight and forward, especially if he's a big powerful youngster in that choo choo train phase between first and third level, where you've made him strong and are having a tough time figuring out what to do with it all. There is a type of horse and a point in his training where he is just going to have a strong contact, and the rider just has to meet him.

You want a horse with eagerness to do his work, and he may WANT TO GO...that isn't such a bad thing. But it takes a lot of skill to 'play that', and not just wind up bracing in the saddle and getting defensive...and it takes a pretty stupendous coordination of the aids and giving a heavy fronted horse a whole hell of alot of energy if he's ever going to do anything other than haul you around on the forehand...It's very hard taking all that and turning it into impulsion (half halted and controlled like a powerful spring storing energy). There are horses that pull like trains, and you just live in half halt hell, and if you slow them down, they get heavier, :). Not all horses have natural balance. Some horses, you have to create it for them.

SLC, I really respect your knowledge of dressage, but I AM thinking of coming from Saddle Seat - I rode and trained SS professionally until I started riding dressage a couple of months ago.

[slc2]

I know, but even with the above, there still is a lot on this thread that caters to your situation.

[khorsem]

There is, but I think that I went the opposite route of the op. I knew what my barriers "should" be, so I overcompensated to the opposite extreme. Even though I'm programmed to have a neck in my lap and butt dropped down a foot below me shooting like a rocket - I never expected or tried to attain that from a dressage horse. I just had loose pieces trying to come together. Although I still have an infinite amount to learn (and I know I'm at the bottom of a huge mountain range) I think I have found my seat (and I believe my instructor agrees) and am trying to explain the feeling as best as I can going from what your body thinks it knows to what it needs to know and do.

[slc2]

how have you taken the opposite route of the OP? It sounded like you both converted to dressage after riding saddle seat.

[khorsem]

Where as she's trying to bring the horse up and still ride Saddleseat, I tried to ride the opposite of Saddle Seat at first, throwing my reins away and going uncollected let the horse do what it wants style before figuring out how to actually ride and ask for what I wanted. Or to even figure out what I wanted, actually.

We're both converts, but approached the learning process differently, is what I'm trying to say, I guess.

[jrchloe]

Well my problem is my position. I can get the horse on the bit and the impulsion with the horse but my hands are just too high because thats my comfort level. So when I lower my hands to be more dressage correct and to let him stretch toward the bit if he decideds to pull or maybe its just an excited stretch or whatever I fall forward (but now I know I need to adjust my rein length and work on my elbows/hips and lower back strength). My instructor says that because of my extentsive SS equitation training I have educated legs and I have the shoulder, hip, heel line. I am also working on how I hold my pelvis consistently which will help my lower back.

[goeslikestink]

look here http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=178116