Adult Amateur vs. Pro ??????

[joharavhf]

I'm sure this thing has been beaten to death, but I just looked at my local Area's year end awards and I see at LEAST TWO people in the Adult Ammie division whom I KNOW get money for their horse activities. I don't want to be a tattle tale - ESPECIALLY since I haven't evented in 8 years.....but it doesn't seem fair that these two TRAINERS are in the Adult Ammie division and they aren't TRUE ammies.

I show on the Arab circuit with one of my horses and this is very strict - you never see a pro in the ammie classes. So how does this happen in eventing where I find things seem to be less corrupt than the show scene?????

[curlykarot]

For the 2008 season (ending Dec. 1, 2008) you could be an ammie if you made less than $2500 in the horse world. Starting Dec. 1 2008, eventing is switching to the USEF rule where you can't make any money off the horse world and still be an ammie.

Take a look at the other thread on this - it will give you a more detailed exlpanation.

[joharavhf]

Okay, maybe *one* of the riders could qualify on this rule, but NOT the other one!

I am actually glad they are going to the USEF ruling. I may be an outcast for saying that, but oh well!

[Auburn]

I am an Amateur, who gave some riding lessons over the past year. I did not earn more than $700 for the year. I have declared myself to be an Amateur for next year. Because of the rule change for 2009, I will not be teaching anyone or accepting any payment for horse related activities. My husband wanted me to retire, so I did. It feels great, too! :yes:

[Flying Hippotamus]

I guess I will have to look in the rulebook and figure it out again. It should be if you are paid to ride or train right? Not paid to do stalls for example. OK that is extreme but there are less extreme examples. I heard there is anice article in COTH - I think I need a summary.

[joharavhf]

The intention of the rule, as I understand, is to prevent any "conflicts of interest". Grooms, stable workers would be considered ammies still. However, people who sell horses on a commission basis would be considered pros. As would people who give lessons or train for a living.

There are DEFINITELY ways that people can cheat it. But it's there for a reason and I'd hope that the professionals really stay in their own league! (Although some ammies are better than some professionals!)

[blackwatch86]

Out of curiosity, what about college kids who teach summer camp riding lessons? If they made more than $2500 at camp but didn't just teach (lived with kids, did lots of barn work, camp activities, etc.) would that make them a pro?

[Kementari]

Out of curiosity, what about college kids who teach summer camp riding lessons? If they made more than $2500 at camp but didn't just teach (lived with kids, did lots of barn work, camp activities, etc.) would that make them a pro?

Nope:

GR 1306.1
b. Accepts remuneration for giving riding or driving lessons, lessons in showmanship, instructions in equitation or horse training. (Persons acting as counselors at summer camps, who are not hired in the exclusive capacity of riding instructors are excluded and persons giving instruction and training to the handicapped).

[vteventer]

Would I be considered a pro if I sell a horse for someone, but make less than the $2500?

[joharavhf]

Would I be considered a pro if I sell a horse for someone, but make less than the $2500?


This would be considered a pro under the USEF rules. You are acting on a commission basis (I think the "norm" is 10% of the sale price, no?).

In the Arab "world" we had a girl who sold horses for a number of people - she just had great advertising and contacts around the world that enjoyed the beauty of a high quality Arab. So, when it came time to show her yearling filly in halter, she was considered a pro. Unfortunately this girl had no more knowledge of showing in Arab halter than I do (and that is just about nil) and she had to compete with professionals who ONLY did halter training. (I could go in to a diatribe about how professional should not MATTER in halter - conformation is conformation - but let's just leave that for the Arab boards!)

In this case I felt the rule was very unfair for her. But I guess the conflict of interest could come in to play if she was the broker to sell a horse to a judge that then judged her. I'm not sure this type of conflict of interest could be avoided in eventing, but I bet it's much more unlikely than the scenario I provided.

[Janet]

Would I be considered a pro if I sell a horse for someone, but make less than the $2500?

If that was the ONLY issue, you could compee as an amateur in eventing for the next 12 days. But after Dec 1 you would become a professional for both eventing and the other disciplines.

[hldyrhrses]

I had this debate all season because i had thought I was an ammy, but someone questioned my eligibility since I teach some lessons. I teach beginner lessons 2x a month and 1 day a week in the winter (yes probably over $2500 for the year... however, my trainer deducts what I earn off of my board.) I never make any money. I found the rule book SO confusing that i couldn't decide if qualified or not, so I just didn't declare it this year. However, I think the rule is a little silly. I'm a school teacher, have only evented up through training on a leased horse, and by no means make any kind of living from horses! I feel I'm totally ameteur trying to afford a horse by teaching some lessons.

[galwaybay]

I had this debate all season because i had thought I was an ammy, but someone questioned my eligibility since I teach some lessons. I teach beginner lessons 2x a month and 1 day a week in the winter (yes probably over $2500 for the year... however, my trainer deducts what I earn off of my board.) I never make any money. I found the rule book SO confusing that i couldn't decide if qualified or not, so I just didn't declare it this year. However, I think the rule is a little silly. I'm a school teacher, have only evented up through training on a leased horse, and by no means make any kind of living from horses! I feel I'm totally ameteur trying to afford a horse by teaching some lessons.

This is how the USEF rule begins: GR808 Amateur Status. 1. Regardless of one’s equestrian skills and/or accomplishments, a person is an amateur for all competitions conducted under Federation rules who after his/her 18th birthday, as defined in GR101..."

It does not matter that you barter for lessons/board or whatever - it matters only that you teach/instruct.

Many of us think the rule is a little silly, however, the problem is/was that a lot of people took advantage of the rule and kept breaking it, so the powers that be got tired of those bad apples who kept figuring out ways to break the rules -so they had to tighten up the rules and made them more restrictive. Fortunately in eventing there aren't really designated amateur divisions, apparently though many event organizers will offer or create an amateur section if entries warrant - at least that's my understanding at this point.

[IFG]

I know the professional in question, and I am sure that the person will fix the problem as soon as she realizes it. She knows that she is a professional, and she was probably placed in that category by mistake. If you mentioned it to someone, I am sure it would not be a problem.

[vteventer]

So, in my case, I am leasing a horse, he happens to be for sale, if I sell him, I will get very little $$, basically not even enough to cover his cost of living or the lease payments. I am not a professional by any means. With this rule, would I need to declare myself a professional? :confused:

[Janet]

So, in my case, I am leasing a horse, he happens to be for sale, if I sell him, I will get very little $$, basically not even enough to cover his cost of living or the lease payments. I am not a professional by any means. With this rule, would I need to declare myself a professional? :confused:yes

[Mary in Area 1]

I know the professional in question, and I am sure that the person will fix the problem as soon as she realizes it. She knows that she is a professional, and she was probably placed in that category by mistake. If you mentioned it to someone, I am sure it would not be a problem.

I don't know about that. You have to actually "check" the amateur box on the form to be listed as such. You don't just become an amateur if you forget to check it, or whatever. You have to actually read a statement and write your name under it, agreeing to the terms of being an amateur.

Sometimes there are mistakes, I'm sure. But some people are just careless, and some people like to bend the rules. Not sure which case this is, but people should correct it immediately themselves if it was an honest mistake and not wait until people are upset when they win awards.

[Flying Hippotamus]

So am I still OK since I get paid to organize events?

The conflict of interest thing is confusing. What about if you clean a judges stalls, you could still be judged by them. And what difference does amateur or professional make to judges? Maybe that makes since in Arab world but I can't see it.



snip Fortunately in eventing there aren't really designated amateur divisions, apparently though many event organizers will offer or create an amateur section if entries warrant - at least that's my understanding at this point.

Yes there are. It is one of the options on the entry form.

[Janet]

So am I still OK since I get paid to organize events? as long as you don't ride any horses "for" the people that pay you.

The conflict of interest thing is confusing. What about if you clean a judges stalls, you could still be judged by them. And what difference does amateur or professional make to judges? Maybe that makes since in Arab world but I can't see it.
Conflict of interest is a completely different issue from the amateur rules.

If you are an employee of the judge (she pays you to clean stalls), then no, you can't be judged by her.

1304.2. No member of a judge’s family, nor any cohabitant, companion, domestic partner,
housemate, or member of a judge’s household nor any of the judge’s clients, employers or
employees or employers of a member of the judge’s family may compete as trainer, coach,
exhibitor, rider, driver, handler, owner, lessor or lessee in any division, or Dressage class
(Arabian, Morgan and Hunter divisions in any competition) unless the relationship is
terminated 30 days (Morgan Division 90 days) prior to the competition. Except Hunters and
Jumpers per GR1304.18 and .19. For purposes of this rule included as employers are any
individuals, corporations, partnerships, foundations, trusts or non-profit organizations and
shareholders owning five or more percent of the stock of any corporation which employs the
judge or a member of the judge’s family, and any officers, directors and partners of any
corporation or partnership and officers, directors or trustees of any trust or foundation or
non-profit organization which employs the judge or a member of the judge’s family. The
hiring of a judge to officiate at Licensed Competitions shall not constitute employment for
purposes of this rule. BOD 1/13/08 Effective 4/1/08

[joharavhf]

The conflict of interest thing is confusing. What about if you clean a judges stalls, you could still be judged by them. And what difference does amateur or professional make to judges? Maybe that makes since in Arab world but I can't see it.

There are rules against competing under someone you work for, I believe.


I sure hope I don't get someone in trouble. There was no ill intentions, especially since I haven't evented in 8 years! Next year I might have issues, LOL. But seriously, I just didn't understand the differences in USEF and USEA pro vs. ammie rules. I have no idea what this "professional" makes monetary wise - it's none of MY business and I'm not going to bring it up to them. I just thought the whole thing was interesting considering my previous understandings of the rule!

Geez, I'm rambling now so I'll just shut up!

[Janet]

. But seriously, I just didn't understand the differences in USEF and USEA pro vs. ammie rules. I have no idea what this "professional" makes monetary wise - it's none of MY business and I'm not going to bring it up to them. As of Dec 1 2008, the ONLY difference between the USEA amateur rules and the USEF amateur rules will be $30- non-USEF members who comply with the normal USEF amaeur rules will be able to compet as amateurs in eventing without paying $30 for the non-member amateur card.

But the restrictions on what you are/ are not allowed to do as an amateur will be EXACTLY the same.