Suggestions? Jumping Issues

[SoManyHorses,SoLittleTime]

It's been a frustrating year or so. I have a 10 year old SOUND horse who is very athletic. He is a cute cute cute jumper and can be a very good partner - when he wants to be. He can have a bit of an attitude, but at the same time can be a wonderful partner. He has a signature move that lets his rider know he will always be the boss. When approaching a fence, whether it is the perfect or the not so perfect spot, he will occassionaly DART OUT to one side. Either side, he doesn't care. THERE IS NO INDICATION THAT HE WILL DART OUT. AT ALL. He will lock on to the fence, aids are in place and working, and a half second before take off, he darts out. He will jump fine on the re-approach.

It is not just with me. He has done it with 3 other people as well. He could do this 10 times in one day and not do it again for months. Then only do it once. Then not again until a month later. There is no logic or pattern to this behavior.

The horse has not had to work regularly for about 5 years or so, and has just basically been a pasture puff with a twice annual trail ride. Then I got him about 18 months ago.

Any suggestions? TIA.

[lstevenson]

When a horse runs out it's because he is not under the riders control. So go slower. TROT any fence you think may be a problem, and keep your canter packaged and together.

And you may think it's a last minute thing, but usually when a horse runs out to one side his weight was slightly leaning that way on approach and the rider didn't notice it. So make sure you square your turns and use your outside leg and hand around the turn. Remember that the horse's weight will tend to fall to the outside around turns, and you need to compensate for that.

You can also try widening your hands on the approach a bit the way we do to skinny jumps. You then steer with your legs and use both hands together as a pair. Think of steering the horse by riding from your leg to the reins like a funnel.

And remember that a horse has an inviting chance to duck out at the last second if the rider gets ahead of the motion. Make sure you are not getting ahead.

[Lori B]

I used to ride a horse who was a runout artist, and as we rode him more carefully, he got better at doing it later and later, more often dumping me and other riders. On one occasion, he actually jumped AROUND a skinny rather than going over it, even though we are quite certain it was more work for him to get around it than over it.

He was never cured of it entirely, but has now been retired from jumping due to a stifle issue that has never been really pinned down but has made him not reliably sound for that work, even small stuff. You might want to investigate any possible physical discomfort with jumping that could cause him to do this also. This horse was so reliably sensible on the flat, in retrospect pain was probably why he ever started doing it in the first place.

[SoManyHorses,SoLittleTime]

Well, he does it at the trot and the canter. The hands are widened. I give him a tap with the crop on his left shoulder 2 strides out to wake him up and let him know I mean business. Leg is on, with spurs if needed. I have been riding him like I would ride a stubborn pony. We are closing all the doors. And it is not only to one side. If it were just with me, I would agree with you, but it's not. Truly it is like he is strutting his strong will when he pleases.

[tequila]

What happens after he runs out? Do you just turn and go back to the jump or does he get a spanking?

[lstevenson]

What happens after he runs out? Do you just turn and go back to the jump or does he get a spanking?


Good point. He must be corrected correctly. Make sure you turn him back the way he came from and punish with whip or spur on the side he ran out on. Only use whip or spur when he is stopped and you are moving him back the way he came from.

[lstevenson]

I give him a tap with the crop on his left shoulder 2 strides out to wake him up and let him know I mean business.


I would stop doing that, for two reasons. One, he might speed up slightly when you do that, and that would help him run out. And two, he's never going to get more reliable about jumping unless he likes it. If he associates pain with the approach to a jump before he has even done anything wrong he will always hate the approach to jumps. You can punish him for doing the wrong thing, but you can't prevent him from doing the wrong thing by threatening punishment. That only creates fear.

[Xanthoria]

Truly it is like he is strutting his strong will when he pleases.

I'd make sure a horse like this was 100% foot-perfect on the ground. No stepping into your space, lugging behind, and backing up smartly on command, and so on.

A horse that respects you on the ground will have more respect for you under saddle (whispers: the round pen is your friend) :yes:

That, and all the other suggestions, of course!

[findeight]

I give him a tap with the crop on his left shoulder 2 strides out to wake him up and let him know I mean business. Leg is on, with spurs if needed. We are closing all the doors.

Ahhh...just an HP but a leading clinician once pointed out to the rider of a Pony who did exactly this WAS opening a gate by moving that hand to use a crop.

Soon as that brat pony felt that hand go out, they used the slight advantage to build to a run out. So do NOT move your hand to tap him. Take the IF out of wearing spurs and use them instead of the crop. The ONLY door open is forward over the fence and he absolutely, positively may NOT pass that fence...if you can't stop him, you have a flatwork issue to work on. Get tough on that. Every time he passes that fence, you reinforce the behavior.

Going to get on you a little bit about your allowing him to always be the boss or even thinking of your riding in these terms. This has nothing to do with him reasoning out his relationship with you and everything to do with not doing as told because he does not have to. He thinks obedience is optional and he can pick and choose, because he has learned that is correct.

He does it because he can. Plain and simple. Work on never letting it happen again even if it means flatwork on forward, laterals and halts until you are sick of it. Or putting somebody else up there for a few rides that can anticipate and block this.

If he really does give no sign at all this is coming (and I bet he does), you are close to a dirty stopper only he darts out insted of dropping head and neck into the fence. Not what you want in a show ring and thinking not what you eventers want on the side of a rain slick hill. You may not want to proceed with him if he, indeed, struts tough and refuse to bow to direction from a rider, that will get you hurt.

[SoManyHorses,SoLittleTime]

Findeight and Xanthoria, I think you have hit the nail on the head. When we first got this horse, it took me a while to get him to respect my space on the ground and not drag me to the nearest patch of grass. We spent lots of time walking around the barn with a dressage whip in one hand and using it as a reminder if he stepped out of line. We didn't have forward AT ALL, and now we do. We didn't have steering either. Or trailer loading. Or circles. Or manners. The only thing we had was brakes. It truly IS a respect issue. We have made so much progress, but still have this issue to get through. Now we have forward, steering, loading, leading, manners, etc.

I have put others on him - including my 2 trainers. He has done it with both of them. They both said the same thing - 'you are right, you don't see it coming'. He is sneaky about it.

Like I said, he doesn't do it all the time. It's like he feels the need to test. My job is to let him know that testing is not an option. Ever. And I'll use the spurs instead of the crop. Don't want to open that door either!

I'm glad to read everyone's suggestions and comments. It helps to know others have dealt with horses like this and they have overcome. I know there isn't a quick fix. I guess I just needed some reinforcement. The frustrating thing is he knows what he is supposed to do and is really good at it when he is agreeable.

THANKS!!!!

[findeight]

Well, make him agreeable 100% of the time or pay the price. It has to be worse to pass the fence then jump it. Not beating but really making him stop before he passes it or making the work load that much harder then jumping the darn fence.

Somewhere, he has learned riders give up when he does that...don't give up, come around and make him jump it and persue all kinds of flatwork stuff he hates. If he jumps well, always stop early and end on a pleasant note...if he acts like crap you make him work alot longer. NEVER stop and discuss why it happened after the fact...he does it, life gets tougher. He is good, life is easy.

Honestly, I'd back off the jumping and really hit halts, leg yields and assorted other lateral work until he can do it in his sleep. He obviously has some holes in his basics, likely not your fault since you have not had him all his life.

Then small fences with generous reward for being good and more flatwork or going back to that run out fence multiple times when he is not. Remember, keep them SMALL and it won't hurt him at all.

In defense of the horse...even Pros that do not regularly ride one can miss cues that a run out is emminent. I think you give him too much credit. That clinician I mentioned spotted a clue he would run out in about 5 seconds despite the fact nobody else did.

I think you can solve this.

[SoManyHorses,SoLittleTime]

Thank you. I think we can solve this too. We have made SO much progress, I am not ready to give up. Reading these responses has really got me thinking about HOW MUCH progress. When we first starting jumping (and he was trained as a 3 & 4 year old as a lower level hunter - so he knows) he would buck after the first fence. Not hard, but enough to mess with you. When he learned he would get a good smack and spurs in his side and sent FORWARD every time, he stopped doing it. Then he would get pissy if you got him to a bad spot. Same horse response, then same rider response. And he got over that one too. He now knows it doesn't get me off of him or get him out of work. Believe me, he is NOT overfaced. He has plenty of scope that I haven't even begun to tap into. I want the lower jumps completely mastered before taking any steps up the levels.

I LOVE the idea of making him do flatwork stuff he hates when he darts out. Crop and spurs don't usually have any lasting impression on him anymore, but flatwork moves might just be the trick! If he darts out, instead of bringing him right back to the fence, I immediately stop him and do some turns on the forehand/haunches, or canter spiral circles, etc. for a minute or 2, then back to the fence. If nothing else, it will get him thinking again.

[findeight]

(and he was trained as a 3 & 4 year old as a lower level hunter - so he knows)

Speaking as a resident over in Hunterland, don't be so sure about that. Nobody said he was good at it, did they?

Somebody probably trained him to W-T-C and go over a few jumps then dubbed him a Hunter because he really didn't do much of anything else.

That somebody also, most likely, taught him he could do the drive by if he didn't feel like going over.

That stuff sticks and, you know, it will always be his "go to" move when he resists thanks to that early omission in basic skill set. But there are worse and you can school 95% of it out.

[SoManyHorses,SoLittleTime]

Someone recently described him as unaffected. He is unaffected by riding, both good and bad, when he tunes out the rider.

[Hony]

I would recomend going to a Lucinda Green clinic for this type of problem if you get a chance. She can be really helpful with this type of problem.

[open oxer]

It sounds to me like he is blowing through your aids. I would suggest spending the winter on the flat working to make him totally honest to your aids, not just when it is convenient for him. Really work on straight and a correct, instantaneous response to your leg.