Possibility of eventing a horse with a chronic bloody nose?

[rideon22]

I may have the opportunity to event a horse who has a chronic bloody nose due to a hematoma. My question is what would the probability that I would be allowed to compete him? I'm assuming I would need some sort of veterinary certificate stating that it does not interfere with his performance or the like...

[longrun]

I don't know all the details but I believe that a young rider from my old barn competes a horse who has had a history of bloody noses. I believe they have had to take the horse to Tufts to have the nose cautorized (sp?) on a regular basis but that it doesn't otherwise interfere with his performance. She just completed the Morven 1* this fall and has great success with him at the Prelim level. I can try to get you an email address if you are interested?

[deltawave]

Do you mean a progressive ethmoid hematoma? Those can bleed spectacularly--my TB mare had one and she bled like she'd been murdered 3 separate times. Never related to exertion, though--it was always random.

If your vet thinks it's OK, there's nothing in the rules that would require you to provide any sort of statement. OTOH, if the horse was noted to be bleeding by a TD/official at a show, you might find yourself having some explaining to do. If you had a statement (saying the horse has a problem but is fit to compete) from your vet on hand, and included it with your entries, it might be smart.

A chronic sinus drainage didn't stop Charisma from winning 2 gold medals. :)

[blaster]

I imagine if it happen to start bleeding while riding you'd be forced to mandatory retire.

[Gnep]

My Woaman Harlekin had the problem I just had a green or read towel with me, cleaned her up, end of the story, she did go I and 2 and had a couple of 1 LF.

[Holyhorseshoes]

Talk to your vet about Lasix.... It could help prevent bleeding.

[KSevnter]

I may have the opportunity to event a horse who has a chronic bloody nose due to a hematoma. My question is what would the probability that I would be allowed to compete him? I'm assuming I would need some sort of veterinary certificate stating that it does not interfere with his performance or the like...

Is the hematoma causing him pain? I only ask because my friend got her old hunter back because the barn that owned him was unwilling to pay for the surgery (he bled occassionally). She had the surgery done and his personality changed completely, he became so much more lively. The hematomas generally put a lot of pressure on their sinuses and even though her horse was dutifully doing his job and only bleeding on occassion the vet who did the surgery said there was no doubt a lot of pressure and pain.

[NeverTime]

If your horse was to get a bloody nose on course obvious enough to be seen by spectators, I think any TD worth his or her salt would stop you and make you retire. Whether you have a vet's note or not, that's not what spectators see. They see a horse with a bloody nose being made to gallop and jump despite the fact he's bleeding. It's not the kind of publicity the sport needs, and officials are VERY sensitive to that. Horses get DQ'd or E'd for spur rubs - and they don't need to be big ugly raw things, just broken skin.

I saw someone get pulled up just a few jumps from home at the Fair Hill CCI**. By all accounts, her horse was going great and jumping great, but he got a bloody nose. She didn't even realize it, and she said he'd never had one before, but spectators and jump judges saw it and they stopped her. The horse looked bright-eyed and happy back at the barn, standing in his tub of ice thinking he'd finished like a champ, but that was the end of the event for them.

Even if the horse is OK despite the nosebleeds, are you OK with taking a gamble at every.single.event that you might be forced to pull up halfway through your XC? I don't think living under that cloud would be very much fun.

ETA: Not sure what level you are talking about competing, but were you talking about FEI, you could not use drugs like Lasix.

[Gnep]

Nevertime,
I got my Vet out to the farm and did a 8 K Gallop with her, she was bleeding pretty good, as excpected. He did the checks, even scoped her, no lung blood, colour was far to deep, she did just fine.
I would have a horse like that stressed to the max and a vet check her emidiatly, if ok green or red towel. And a TD that pulls a horse like that is an idiot, scared by all the safety shit, no back bone. Some bleed just because of the flairing of the nose and the huge amount of air sucked in that will blow small arteries, they bleed like pigs and have blood flying out of the nose like out of a spray gun, it is no big deel.
In a case of a nosebleeder, I go to the vet, and the TD and tell them.

But a TD pulling a good and strong going horse because of nosebleeding, IDIOT, political correct IDIOT.

[Divine Comedy]

ETA: Not sure what level you are talking about competing, but were you talking about FEI, you could not use drugs like Lasix.

Another thing about Lasix/Salix is that it is only a preventative for the lungs bleeding, which exits through the nostrils. It will not prevent a nosebleed caused by a hematoma in the nasal passage.

And I have to say that while nosebleeds are usually not something to be supremely concerned about, I would be unimpressed if a TD allowed the bleeding horse to gallop on. I don't care if the political environment is one about safety, and you think that the TD is bowing to public pressure, Gnep, it really does look bad for our sport if photos of this spread beyond the eventing world. Don't you think we have had enough negative press lately? Shit happens...if your rein broke on course, you would have to retire too. Every now and then, something happens that will get you eliminated that is beyond your control.

[Gnep]

Please give me a brak, people die because they run a marathon, which was the last one and had people killed, couple of weeks ago, extrem running, in Germany several killed, in Scotland several killed.

We have to be sencetif about the image of our sport, it is dangerous and we use an animal as the instrument of our sport, but we have to understand that if we use our horses to the limits, or stress them, that we have nose bleeder, bleeders, blood pissers and so on, if you strain a human beeing as hard as we do our horses you will have the same effects, you go to the limit, part of the game.

But that does not mean that we do that without the proper care, prevention, training, knowledge. But a Nose Bleeder, just needs a green towel, and a TD that stops a Nose Bleeder, is an IDIOT, a Political Corect Idiot, but still an IDIOT

[Bobthehorse]

Im sorry, nosebleeds should force a retire. The rider may not realize, and I for one would pull my horse up if I knew he was bleeding, from anywhere on his body. Those horses are running on adrenaline, you have no idea what might be going on inside, even if the horse is wired on the outside. The horse could be running sound with arterial bleeding and you might not even notice it in his expression, does that make it right to let him keep running? What if the nosebleed isnt just from the flare? What if its from the lungs? You have no way of knowing just from looking. Better safe than sorry.

My horse has heaves. Every event I prepare myself in the box to pull up if his breathing worries me on course. And while he may warm up coughing up crap, and worry the crap out of me some days in the warmup, he has never coughed on course or had a single rattle to his breathing. If he ever did, I would pull up right away. Its just not worth it to ignore things like that, no matter how harmless they *may* be. Because what if theyre not?

[NeverTime]

Eventing has to be super careful and cognizant about its image. To allow horses to compete while they are bleeding simply will not do. No one watching from the ground can discern a minor nosebleed from a major one, so we must play by the rules of better safe than sorry, for the good of our horses and the good of our sport.
Just as no one wants to see Laine Ashker's Rolex fall broadcast over and over, no one wants to see images of a horse gushing blood from its nose broadcast everywhere.
"I know my horse and that's not a serious bleed" makes a rider sound callous, not educated, in the court of public opinion. And if there's one thing posting on this board should teach a person beyond a doubt, it's how much the court of public opinion counts.

[deltawave]

There is a big difference between a horse with a little bloody discharge and "gushing".

Charisma, as I mentioned above, competed the latter half of his career with pus coming out of his nose, at times quite a lot of it. Didn't faze him a bit.

[NeverTime]

I wonder if that would be allowed in this day and age, with information flying everywhere over the Web and a higher level of sensitivity to how the sport is perceived by outside eyes. Gushing vs. a little - my point is that if its enough that spectators can see it easily, I really don't know how they can let you continue.

[deltawave]

if its enough that spectators can see it easily, I really don't know how they can let you continue.

Your point is well taken, but does anyone else find that to be really sad? :(

[Gry2Yng]

Your point is well taken, but does anyone else find that to be really sad? :(

I'm not sure whether it is "really sad" or not. It is sad that we let appearance be our guide, but at the same time, how is the TD to know that a bloody nose is related to some innocent cause and not something more detrimental.

There would be hell to pay on this board and else where if a horse were bleeding from the nose was not pulled up and later had a rotational fall - even if the two things were entirely unrelated.

[deltawave]

If the TD had a note from the animal's vet stating that mild discharge was normal and harmless, I don't see where the TD needs to concern himself/herself if that's all that happens.

I actually tend to fall (reluctantly) into the camp that finds politically correct to be mostly OK, but jeez, sometimes I think we nanny everything just a bit too much. I'm all for putting a horse's welfare first and foremost, but at what point do we say "enough is enough, this is a competitive sport and it's not always pretty"?

If I saw a horse cantering by with a little bloody snot coming out of its nose, otherwise looking perfectly fine, I'd not leap in front of the rider and scream at them to STOP! Maybe that's wrong, I don't know. Too many bad memories recently, perhaps, are making us paranoid, but I'd be more inclined to note the horse's number and walk over to the finish to make sure they're OK and that the rider is aware. If they are, and assured me that it's nothing, I'd leave it at that. I'm sure many can and will judge this as "wrong" and I'm willing to acknowledge that there are circumstances where it would BE the wrong decision, but not always.

[keeneland]

Not sure if the horse has been recently scoped or not. Continuing Deltawave's previous note about an ethmoid hematoma, they can be drained pretty easily. Once drained, they can be injected with formaldehyde and shrink dramatically. Pretty easy and quick procedure, although it may need to be injected a couple of times depending on the size.
I can say i would never event a gushing bleeder for fear that the blood is accumulating in the lungs. Any good TD would pull a horse that was bleeding. We need to realize with the eventing communities luck lately the one horse the TD doesn't pull would end up dying of some sort of aneurysm or some other drastic measure. We would just be digging ourselves even deeper into the eyes of those anti-eventers.

[Troispony]

I agree that the TD should stop a horse with a bloody nose. I knew a horse who had a nosebleed, but it was very mild so nobody paid too much attention. The next day he died of a brain aneurysm. How is a TD to know if its a hematoma or something much worse?

[deltawave]

A TD IS NOT A VET. Nor should they be asked to make veterinary decisions. It's the same as asking a jump judge to make a declaration as to whether or not a rider is fit to get back on and finish a course (before the rule change). NOT KOSHER.

Yes, if ANY official or well-meaning bystander sees a potential problem with a horse, they should do what's in their best judgement, including stopping the horse if they perceive that it's in imminent danger. But a horse competing with a note from a veterinarian stating that bloody nasal discharge is A-OK should not be a problem, IMO. The vet and the rider are responsible, and the TD should not have to or be expected to override this if there is nothing out of what's ordinary for this animal going on.

[NeverTime]

DW, while I agree it's too bad perception counts more than reality, I don't think what you're suggesting -- that the vet and rider know what's going on and the TD shouldn't overrule -- is plausible. By extension, does this mean I could show up to a three-day with a note in hand:

Dear TD & Ground Jury,
This horse has always had a hitch in his git-along. He might look lame, but it really doesn't bother him at all. Please do not spin him at either jog.
Thanks,
The horse's vet from home

;)

[deltawave]

As a matter of fact, I do think it would be reasonable for any sort of blemish or potential "problem area" that an old campaigner might have to be explained by a veterinarian if there is going to be a strange team of vets examining the horse. After all, it's OK for a vet to send a note along with a horse to a three day stating "this horse was treated with antibiotics a week ago and is now fine". Why not a note from a vet saying "this horse was kicked in the pasture 2 weeks ago and still has a small hematoma on his gaskin but has been thoroughly evaluated and is felt to be sound and capable to compete".

This of course gets into what is a "blemish" and what is an "unsoundness". The former is acceptable, the latter is not. I personally wouldn't consider a runny nose (bloody or not) an unsoundness, unless it very clearly got worse with exertion or hampered the horse's athletic performance.

[Bobthehorse]

DW, while I agree it's too bad perception counts more than reality, I don't think what you're suggesting -- that the vet and rider know what's going on and the TD shouldn't overrule -- is plausible. By extension, does this mean I could show up to a three-day with a note in hand:

Dear TD & Ground Jury,
This horse has always had a hitch in his git-along. He might look lame, but it really doesn't bother him at all. Please do not spin him at either jog.
Thanks,
The horse's vet from home

;)


Really then, you could get a note from any sketchbag vet excusing any problem you want. I got fake doctor's notes in high school to get out of swim class.

If everyone can bring notes claiming their horses are a-ok despite lumps and limps and whatnot, what is the point of any of this?

[Precious Lendon]

IMO, whether or not the horse is fit to compete is subjective and constantly changing. We have treated a horse for an ethmoid hematoma and while at certain stages, the hematoma is probably not a reason to spin a horse, at other stages it is. Unless the horse has been scoped recently, no vet can say the horse is fit to compete.

On the day our horse was scoped, another horse with almost identical symptoms was being scoped at the same facility. Our horse could be treated with injections whereas the other horse needed immediate surgery.

Ethmoid hematomas are progressive and without treatment will almost always get worse. While the condition might not directly interfere with a horse's ability to compete, is it really in the best interest of the horse to continue competing in lieu of treating the condition?

[WW_Queen]

This topic makes me wonder what is standard practice as far as "vet/dr's notes" for horses and riders. Was there not a question a while ago whether a women who had done X/Y/Z to her neck/back and need to wear (visible) support while competing, w/ a dr's note? Or the whole "headshaking is a chronic condition" which now permits horses with this affliction to compete with nosenets?

The OP's question really makes me wonder where that "line" is. I think people are right, while TD's are not vets, you could have ANY Dr. Billy Joe cow vet go "Yup, that horse is just fine, sure I'll write you a note" versus Mr. Professional Equine Diagnostics guy go "Sure, I'll give your horse an injection/treatment so he'll be cleared to compete, I'll write you a note". It is not up to the event's staff to have to judge that sort of thing, however it would have to be mandatory to prevent just ANYBODY's note being "passed". THEN of course you'd be in a mess of complaints and appeals because Mr. Cripple Horse was "okay'd" by the backwater vet but trots like his hips are broken.

Soon enough they'll let someone with a serious brain injury ride in upper level competitions because their doctor said it was "a-okay". A doctor's note just makes everything okay! :(

[deltawave]

No, not ANY problem, but a blemish--yes.

That there are crappy practitioners out there who might abuse the system doesn't mean that the large majority of legitimate, rule-respecting practitioners and patients/owners shouldn't be able to use the available expertise in a sensible fashion.

"Yup, that horse is just fine, sure I'll write you a note"

I don't know about the veterinary profession, but human doctors wouldn't DARE do something like this without covering their ass hugely--meaning talking to and examining the patient, understanding the situation and actually making an expert recommendation that will hold water. There are lawyers out there (and patients) who prey on those of us who don't.

On the other hand, we already HAVE an example of this:

Soon enough they'll let someone with a serious brain injury ride in upper level competitions because their doctor said it was "a-okay". A doctor's note just makes everything okay!

The difference here, of course, is that a human theoretically has the wits and the will to choose freely what he or she does (assuming their brain is not scrambled) while a horse does not. The owner of a horse has to keep that firmly in mind.

[GotSpots]

As a matter of fact, I do think it would be reasonable for any sort of blemish or potential "problem area" that an old campaigner might have to be explained by a veterinarian if there is going to be a strange team of vets examining the horse. It is not uncommon at a three day for the horse's usual vet to be standing there at the jog and/or in the holding area, and to discuss with the vets there if a horse has a particular way of going. Particularly at the one star level, the vets may see horses they are not familiar with, and there may be a conversation about its way of going. By the time horses get to the upper levels, many of the vets are pretty familiar with the way they move. For example, I had one who moved short on all four legs - horse moved like a sewing machine. Vets were pretty familiar with that, and he never had an issue at a three day. I've seen other horses where that type of movement would be a huge aberration, and they were spun if they looked substantially shorter than they normally did.

But I think that's a different issue from a horse who is actually bleeding from its nose. If the horse is bleeding sufficiently for bystanders/jump judges to notice when it's galloping by, I think it's a good thing for it to be pulled off course. Sorry, but I don't think that's a normal thing at any level, whether they are bleeding from the nose, stifle, knee, whatever. Welfare of the horse has to be paramount.

[deltawave]

No need to apologize--this is not something that can be declared "100% right" or "100% wrong", and opinions will vary. :)

[Gry2Yng]

It is not uncommon at a three day for the horse's usual vet to be standing there at the jog and/or in the holding area, and to discuss with the vets there if a horse has a particular way of going. Particularly at the one star level, the vets may see horses they are not familiar with, and there may be a conversation about its way of going. By the time horses get to the upper levels, many of the vets are pretty familiar with the way they move. For example, I had one who moved short on all four legs - horse moved like a sewing machine. Vets were pretty familiar with that, and he never had an issue at a three day. I've seen other horses where that type of movement would be a huge aberration, and they were spun if they looked substantially shorter than they normally did.

But I think that's a different issue from a horse who is actually bleeding from its nose. If the horse is bleeding sufficiently for bystanders/jump judges to notice when it's galloping by, I think it's a good thing for it to be pulled off course. Sorry, but I don't think that's a normal thing at any level, whether they are bleeding from the nose, stifle, knee, whatever. Welfare of the horse has to be paramount.

If I remember correctly, Task Force had a funny way, due to a previous shoulder injury. Ground Jury always took this into consideration. I have a horse with a "way" of going. We call it, "That's just Ed." While he is not familiar to all, Kathy knew him, so did Furlong and VA Equine. In fact, at Monday morning jogs, I always got to hear "Looks good for Ed." Comforting in the weeks before your three day? NOT! But he was one sound MF.

To the point of crappy practitioners and the large majority of legitimate vets...come play in h/j land, there are many great practitioners, but they practice in getting lame horses into the ring.

My feeling is that if the horse is bleeding badly enough for me to notice at a full gallop, he should be pulled. A little blood mixed with some snot might be more noticeable on a gray or chestnut than a bay. Life is not fair, I guess.

[annikak]

My friend who is a vet and knows Taco really well told me to make SURE they A) knew about his mongo splint in front, and B) watched him move his slinky way at the barn check. He was always sound, but because he moved so "hippy", some did not like it as much. For him, it was good, perfect and sound.

Poor Cookiepony had a judge that did not like the way he moved behind at all last weekend! But honestly, it's just him.

I think that is much different then a bloody nose, however....

[Carol Ames]

It is generally agreed upon n by TDs and organizing committees :yes:that a horse bleeding be stopped on course:yes:,not allowed to continue:no:; As Dr.Allen put it, "we do not want people to see horses bleeding:eek: as they cross the finish line, or anywhere on course.":no:

[Carol Ames]

I see now that she completed a *, see if you can get the veterinary notes om the event; :yes:; eventing is now being especially sensitive any suggestion of abuse in any form; Unfortunately, blood is is, of course a cause for alarm any sport :o


watyour goals with this horse?:confused:

[Carol Ames]

Not sure if the horse has been recently scoped or not. Continuing Deltawave's previous note about an ethmoid hematoma, they can be drained pretty easily. Once drained, they can be injected with formaldehyde and shrink dramatically. Pretty easy and quick procedure, although it may need to be injected a couple of times depending on the size.

fortunately, these treatments can really lower the quality of life :sadsmile::(of the horse.:no:

[Carol Ames]

Ethmoid hematomas are progressive and without treatment will almost always get:yes:worse. While the condition might not directly interfere with a horse's ability to compete, is it really in the best interest of the horse to continue competing in lieu of treating the condition? :no: Last edited by Precious Lendon : Nov. 19, 2008 at 05:

[deltawave]

ALMOST always is the operative phrase. Kelly (Delta Wave) has a good-sized ethmoid hematoma and has bled spectacularly three times, as I mentioned somewhere on page one. Surgery for her was going to mean opening up the bones on her face and going in--no route for an injection (of course this was 10 years ago, things may be different now) so I decided not to do it unless it got clearly worse. It never did, and she's never bled since. It had NOTHING to do with exertion, either.

I really feel for the OP here, and with all the concern over "appearances" (which I still struggle with, being able to appreciate both sides of the issue) I'd probably bite the bullet and see if the thing could be injected or removed.

[rideon22]

Thank you for your responses, everyone. The horse has an ethmoid hematoma to the best of my knowledge. Apparently he has been looked at and surgery is not an option because of where it is in his sinuses. It is injected every month with formaldehyde but does not seem to affect the amount of bleeding that occurs. The amount varies from a trickle to a steady stream depending on the situation (i.e. he is excited, breathing hard, etc.).

He is an old campaigner and has had this condition for a few years. If I got him, I was planning on competing him just at the lower levels (Novice, Training). I do understand the appearance aspect and how concerned our sport is with safety right now, so that is why I thought I would get some opinions regarding the situation.

[deltawave]

I think it would be a crying shame if an old, experienced veteran who was still sound and happy competing had to become virtually useless because of this kind of thing and for the sake of appearances. :(

[bpt]

I have a mare that has been diagnosed with this type of hematoma and I myself am in quite a dilema. The mare is 18, has had hock surgery for bone chips. Everyone is telling me I am throwing good money to bad. She has been my partner for 6 years, has been a great teacher and has never spooked or tried to hurt me. My expense would be around $1500 for the initial procedure and followups. Would it be insane for me to take and get this procedure done or should I just call it a day? I guess that means putting her down. At this point I cannot ride with the bridle since she seems to be in such pain when it is on, guess it is the pressure of the tumors. What experience do any of you have with riding while this is going on with your horse? What would you do given the age and already pre-existing conditions of hock problems?