Dilemma re: safety vests

[Haalter]

Here's the situation: I'm a trainer with some new clients who moved here from another country. The two girls have just started showing - they did a local show with me last month and are planning to do the rated shows starting this spring. Here's the issue: the parents insist that both girls wear safety vests, like eventers wear.

Ok, I can see the desire to keep the kids safe, but to me, this is like insisting your kid wears a football helmet and pads to play on a baseball team. However, I feel that if I tell them the safety vests aren't appropriate equipment for the hunters/eq, and one of the girls gets hurt, I will somehow have increased liability because I recommended getting rid of "safety gear". That's assuming the parents even agree to letting the vests go. I thought that maybe at the local show we attended, the parents (and the girls) would realize they were the only ones wearing vests and would lose them, but they seemed happily oblivious.

Before I get flamed, I'm all about safety. Everyone at my farm must wear an approved helmet to ride. Before anyone suggests I'm sacrificing safety for fashion, please understand that this is not the standard safety equipment for our discipline. The older girl has aspirations to do the big eq (and the ability to match) - I know the rules say riders won't be penalized for safety equipment, but come on...no one wears a vest for the short stirrup, let alone more advanced divisions.

Thoughts on this? I'm pretty stuck re: how to handle it appropriately.

[Come Shine]

In our area, several of the riders wear safety vests in the hunters. Not usual perhaps, but not frowned upon either. The dark blue ones that match the rider's jacket are pretty inconspicuous. I even knew an older adult ammie, extremely successful at the big shows, who wore a vest because she took a bad spill and needed the extra protection in case she came off again. I don't think anyone ever batted an eye.

[ef80]

I'm of the mindset that since Mom and Dad pay the bills and want the kid to wear extra safety equipment, then kid wears extra safety equipment. Remember how everyone poo-pooh'ed the skunk-stripe (and other approved helmets, really) until 2001ish and BNT's were wearing them in GP's? Those were SO not-cool in the 90's - I remember a couple of kids in my barn who regularly got teased because their parents made her wear a "bubble-head hat".

The kids and social-expectations may eventually put pressure on the parents and get the vests ditched without your intervention. If you feel like you MUST say something, you could always suggest trying the vest under the hunt-coat. You may also find that the kids decide to move toward the Jumper ring after a year or two in the Hunters where no one will blink an eye at the vests.

[Guin]

I think it's inappropriate to say anything to the parents or kids. Vests are a recognized safety item in riding and they will not be penalized for showing in them. Eventually what will happen is the kids decide they're too uncomfortable to wear with a jacket, and then the battle will be between the kids and parents, NOT you.

[heartinrye]

Why not put the vest under the coat? safety and while their bodies may look a tad strange, they will still 'fit in' better.

[Lucassb]

Can you have them wear the vests under their hunt coats? I know they are fairly bulky, but you could always have them buy coats a size or two bigger and have them tailored if necessary.

With the vests underneath and the jackets on top, they will be outwardly "appropriate" (and may come to their own conclusion about whether or not to continue wearing them) and you won't put yourself in an awkward position by seeming to suggest that fashion trumps safety concerns.

[CBoylen]

There is a very successful a/a rider that shows with a vest for health reasons and seems to encounter no discrimination at the very biggest shows. I can certainly understand your perspective, as obviously it would be more appropriate for them to not wear the vests, but it shouldn't affect your results, as long as the vests are as conservative in color and style as they can possibly be.

[DancingQueen]

I think that encouraging the parents to have the girls put their vests under their jackets should be enough. Perhaps they can even fit them under their breeches if they get a bigger pair?

Here's an idea for the manufacturers of safety vests. Come up with a "light" version that will be more appropriate for hunter/jumpers as far as fex fit and color goes.

[Haalter]

Thanks for all the replies. When the girls first started riding with me, they had vests that I'd never seen in the US (they are from GB) which looked basically like life jackets you'd wear on a boat - bulky and fairly restrictive. No way to fit them under a jacket without looking like the Michelin man. I've since gotten them into Tipperary vests, which are the most form-fitted ones I could find. They still look quite bulky under a jacket and you can see the top of the vest on the chest above the jacket buttons. I've tried them under the shirt, but the kids say it's really uncomfortable and I don't want to torture them like that ;) If anyone has any suggestions for a vest that is more subtle in terms of fit, I'd love to know about it!

Maybe vests will be required in H/J land someday, but until then I fear that these kids will stick out at the shows...everyone assumed they were 3-day riders even at the local show we attended, despite the fact that fairly casual attire is the norm there. I'm really a stickler for presentation - I can't tell you what I go through to helo my riders achieve an A-show look even if they have a local show budget, but I guess maybe I should get over it...

[DancingQueen]

I emailed Charles Owen (the only ones I could find a website for) and told them that there is a huge untapped market here if they can come up with a good design.
Be interesting to see if they respond.

I think if everybody who has this problem contacted the big manufacturers they would listen. It should be easy enough to just make different colors available or change the concept a little to fit with our world. Slimmer, more formfitting and maybe a built in shirtfront and choker if cutting them lower in front will compromise safety.

[joiedevie99]

I see no problem with a kid showing with a black vest over their coat, or a vest under their coat. Honestly, no judge should be pinning a kid down because they are wearing safety equipment. The only place it could arguably cause a problem is in an equitation class.

[ddashaq]

I think that there are vests that are designed for jockeys that are smaller and lighter. They do not have th highest possible rating, but then the kids won't be jumping solid obstacles. I think that they look fairly inconspicuous under silks so I would imagine that they would look alright under a coat.

[Biscotti]

Who are these riders that do sooo well at big shows and wear vests? I would like to hear some names, all the riders I see in them are totally crazy and should probably wear them if they don't plan to move down. I don't think a vest is appropriate for any H/J ring. And if you want to flame me for being anti-safety, look how many more event riders die wearing those things than h/j riders that don't... if you are going to coach this girl to be competitive in the big eq she needs to not be wearing one of those, and honestly, I'd point out the above to the parents: those things really don't offer a lot of protection at all.

[Scott Free]

If the parents insist, then there's not much you can do, but I'd ask the parents what kind of protection they think these vests actually give their kids.
Although you might find a hunter rider showing in a vest (although I've never seen one), I doubt you'll ever get a good reason why. They really don't offer much protection. I like the analogy of a helmet and pads to play baseball.

[Lisa Cook]

The vests do offer some protection. They aren't going to be of much help if a horse flips over on their rider (the typical circumstance of death for event riders), but they certainly would help blunt the trauma of a hard fall in the hunter ring - especially if falling into/on top of rails, standards and jump cups. If a horse were to step on me after I fell off, I'd really rather have a vest on than not for that occasion.

I know they aren't traditional attire for the hunter ring, so I'm not going to get into that aspect of things, but for the 2 recent posters who are saying that vests don't offer much in the way of protection, I thought I'd offer up my perspective.

[ef80]

And if you want to flame me for being anti-safety, look how many more event riders die wearing those things than h/j riders that don't... if you are going to coach this girl to be competitive in the big eq she needs to not be wearing one of those, and honestly, I'd point out the above to the parents: those things really don't offer a lot of protection at all.

I'm not going to flame you for being anti-safety, I'm going to flame you for being about as smart as a sack of wet hair.

What we do in the H/J world is so radically different from what happens out on the XC course. We ride in well maintained rings over fences that collapse with easy, predictable distances and straight easy lines. The XC course is an entirely different set of questions asked at speed, over changing terrain, with solid obstacles. When you add even one of those elements - speed, changing terrain or solid obstacles - you add danger. Added danger is added risk so of course you are going to see more accidents and death compared to the bubble-wrapped, super-safe world of the Hunter ring. Quite honestly, the Hunter ring of today has little to do with it's roots anymore, which is far closer to what those wacky eventers do.

Better to be protected and ride another day than to be a pretentious, and ignorant princess.

[2LaZ2race]

I'm not going to flame you for being anti-safety, I'm going to flame you for being about as smart as a sack of wet hair.

What we do in the H/J world is so radically different from what happens out on the XC course. We ride in well maintained rings over fences that collapse with easy, predictable distances and straight easy lines. The XC course is an entirely different set of questions asked at speed, over changing terrain, with solid obstacles. When you add even one of those elements - speed, changing terrain or solid obstacles - you add danger. Added danger is added risk so of course you are going to see more accidents and death compared to the bubble-wrapped, super-safe world of the Hunter ring. Quite honestly, the Hunter ring of today has little to do with it's roots anymore, which is far closer to what those wacky eventers do.

Better to be protected and ride another day than to be a pretentious, and ignorant princess.

Here Here!!! :yes:

These girls are being taught a valuable lesson by their parents that their safety is far more important than what other people think or winning ribbons. It will make them better horsemen and better people in the long run.

[Donkey]

To those who think that the vests don't do much have obviously not had the pleasure of walking away from an unplanned dismount with very little soreness or discomfort to show for it, credit of course to the vest.

You hunters have to agree that it hurts when you land on a pole or clip a standard on your way down, next time it happens to you think of how you could be feeling if you had been wearing a vest.

Check out the latest technology. I'm guessing the OP wouldn't like her clients to catch wind of this one. exo vest (http://www.bitofbritain.com/Woof_Wear_EXO_Body_Protector_p/11-2184.htm)

[bascher]

There is someone in our IHSA region that wears a safety vest...for EQUITATION and she does perfectly fine and is not frowned upon or anything.

[Haalter]

Check out the latest technology. I'm guessing the OP wouldn't like her clients to catch wind of this one. exo vest (http://www.bitofbritain.com/Woof_Wear_EXO_Body_Protector_p/11-2184.htm)This looks like the ones they came to the US with! Different brand, same shape. Perhaps this type is more common in GB.

For the record, I do agree with ef80 - I'm sure these vests do offer some degree of protection - but like s/he says, the eventers who wear them are really competing in a different sport than those of us in the hunter/eq ring. The football/baseball analogy again comes to mind.

You know, I have mixed feelings about this. A few years ago someone very close to me died of head injuries - she was a pedestrian in a hit-and-run auto accident. A helmet might have saved her life. A relative died of chest injuries in an auto accident. Maybe if he'd been wearing one of these vests he'd have survived? But you don't see us walking around with helmets or driving with protective vests, do you? Flame away, next thing you know we'll all be wearing helmets, vests, and facemasks to vaccuum the house. Say what you will about IHSA eq and hunters - unless (until?) these vests are required for juniors by USEF, you can bet you won't see someone wearing one winning the Maclay finals.

[Rye]

Like others have said, I'd avoid asking them to ditch the vest. It's the parents call.


Here's an idea.....if you have your coats tailor made (like I do), take the vest in and have the tailor make a vest cover in the same material.

Or if you're ordering a custom coat from Grand Prix, get a couple extra yards of fabric and have a vest cover made.

Now if I rode in an actual hunt, I'd be sure to wear one myself. I don't know about the hunts in your area, but the one in my neck of the woods seems to produce a fair amount of injuries every year.

[eventchic33]

Here Here!!! :yes:

These girls are being taught a valuable lesson by their parents that their safety is far more important than what other people think or winning ribbons. It will make them better horsemen and better people in the long run.

Completely agree here.
On another note what right do you have to interfere with a parents safety concerns? None, they are not your children. The discussion should end right there. I say congrats to the parents for sticking to their guns and thinking safety before fashion. Smart parents, IMO

Now if you had suggested that they wear one and they refused then its a different story.

[freshman]

A vest can be interperted as nontradional and a rider or pair could or should be judged down for it, if the judge so chooses to do so. They do it for much less glaring things, like having unusual bit (read, all that not d-rings or pelhams), having an unbraided horse, or bad hunter hair, whatever. It's hunters and it is a fashion show.

Who knows, maybe vests will be mandatory like approved helments. They were also uncool, big & ugly. Sure, they look a little better now, but we've gotten so used to them that we don't even think about it. Fits out internal schema for a rider. Same thing with seatbelts twenty years ago, some cars didn't even have them, and people didn't use child seats, etc.

We'll get used to it. We always do.

[Alterageous]

I assume you informed the parents that the tipperary vests you made them buy aren't beta 3 certified like the ones you made them ditch probably were?

While I agree that it's the parent's choice to insist on safety equipment, I think they're not operating with all the information here. They clearly just see "body protector" and don't have an understanding of which is safer, etc.

If the kids are learning to ride with them, then I think it would be a mistake to try showing without them. That said, I think the large appearance and general stiffness of the body will count heavily against an equitation rider and a rider will have to be that much better to make up for it. The girl will be disadvantaging herself right from the start. It's not the safety equipment that will be being penalized, but instead the appearance it gives the rider.

There are thinner vests out there, not designed for jumping, but all will come up over the collarbone as that is part of the point of wearing a vest.

[Kementari]

A vest can be interperted as nontradional and a rider or pair could or should be judged down for it, if the judge so chooses to do so.

No, they can't:

GR 801
4. Any exhibitor may wear protective headgear (ASTM/SEI) and/or a protective safety vest, specifically designed for use in equestrian sport in any division or class without penalty from the judge. The Federation recommends that the vest meet or surpass the current ASTM standard or be certified by the Safety Equipment Institute.

Just imagine the lawsuit if the rules outright forbade wearing basic safety equipment! :eek:

[dogchushu]

A vest can be interperted as nontradional and a rider or pair could or should be judged down for it, if the judge so chooses to do so. They do it for much less glaring things, like having unusual bit (read, all that not d-rings or pelhams), having an unbraided horse, or bad hunter hair, whatever. It's hunters and it is a fashion show.


I've never heard of a judge marking someone down for bad hunter hair! :lol: Would the symbol on the judge's card look something like this smilie: :confused:

We're talking about kids right? I haven't seen many vests in hunter/eq classes, but I have seen a couple on kids. It's unusual but not completely unheard of. Most people realize that kids are still subject to the wishes of their parents. Some may think a vest is going a bit overboard, but it's not going to stand out in a horrible way or anything. Most people really won't think about it all that much!

Just don't send them out there in a bright yellow or pink vest. I'd recommend against putting the vest under a coat. You can't really hide it all that well, and it often makes the kid look like they have a roach. As the kids and parents get more comfortable with riding/showing and learn more about the sport, they'll probably feel more at ease forgoing the vests.

[Haalter]

I assume you informed the parents that the tipperary vests you made them buy aren't beta 3 certified like the ones you made them ditch probably were?

Actually I had no idea. I assumed that since the Tipperary vests were "approved" for 3-day eventing, that they had passed the same safety standard as the other vests, much like ASTM-SEI helmet ratings. Thanks for the info, do you have a source where I could learn more about the safety ratings?

Those of you applauding the parents for making the kids wear the vests: do you wear a vest yourself? Do you have children, and if so, do they wear vests?

[Haalter]

Completely agree here.
On another note what right do you have to interfere with a parents safety concerns? None, they are not your children.
Actually, as the trainer, when the kids are riding, it is I, not the parents, who is responsible for overseeing their safety, and their apparel. I don't let kids ride in sneakers or helmetless, even if the parents think it's appropriate, it's MY decision what they ride in. I also don't let my students ride with messy hair hanging out of their helmets, though that has nothing to do with safety. My barn, my rules, not the parents. If they don't like it, they are free to take their kids to ride somewhere else.

However, in this case, I agree that it's not my place to say "don't wear a vest" and that's the whole reason I started this thread to begin with.

[joiedevie99]

As far as the vest ratings- they are right in the catalogs where that sell them, like Dover. There is no such thing as approved for eventing (since they aren't required). My understanding of why the Tipperary didn't pass BETA 3 is that the ties on the sides leave that area unprotected (and the looser you make the ties, the greater the area exposed).

I do own a vest, ride in it at home on occasion, but have never shown in it. I would if I ever felt like I needed it. I started my baby green hunter in it this spring with it on because she displayed tendencies towards tantrums.

[Noctis]

I do wear a vest a lot of the time, and my daughter most certainly will, at least when she's young and learning. Me, I broke my back badly, and I'll wear a good vest to help take any extra impact off, even in the hunter ring! Now I don't show the A's anymore, but its still valid. And per the rules you can't be dinged. I wear a Tipp vest because its about all I can deal with comfort wise, and its better than nothing, even in the ring. Honestly, while it doesn't look as "pretty", if thats the parent's choice, then you are in no place to argue with safety equipment. May even give you much more liability were something to happen, if you were the one to recommend NOT wearing it. Don't really know there, just sounds like that could be a factor.

As far as the vest ratings- they are right in the catalogs where that sell them, like Dover. There is no such thing as approved for eventing (since they aren't required). My understanding of why the Tipperary didn't pass BETA 3 is that the ties on the sides leave that area unprotected (and the looser you make the ties, the greater the area exposed).
Actually vests are required for warming up and competing on the cross country portion of an event, as referenced in the USEF Rulebook, in the eventing section:
PROTECTIVE VESTS.
a. A body protecting vest must be worn warming-up for and in the cross-country test.
Stable, team or club colors are permitted. The Federation recommends that the vest
should pass or surpass the current ASTM standard F1937 or be certified by the Safety
Equipment Institute.
b. Violation of this rule shall be penalized at the discretion of the Ground Jury, and may
result in elimination. BOD 1/13/08 Effective 12/1/08

[Kementari]

Actually I had no idea. I assumed that since the Tipperary vests were "approved" for 3-day eventing, that they had passed the same safety standard as the other vests, much like ASTM-SEI helmet ratings. Thanks for the info, do you have a source where I could learn more about the safety ratings?

Those of you applauding the parents for making the kids wear the vests: do you wear a vest yourself? Do you have children, and if so, do they wear vests?

I don't know of a single website that outlines all the standards, but look for a tag that says either ASTM or BETA 2000 3. The eventing rules do not require (yet) that vests be approved at all, and the Tipp Eventer (the one with all the little pieces as opposed to one big piece) is not. It meets an outdated British standard, but does not pass any current standard.

I am an eventer, not a hunter, (I occasionally do local open type hunter classes for the mileage) but I have started to wear a vest for all jumping. Someone pointed out to me last year that there was absolutely no good reason not to. I thought about it, and realized that they were right. I haven't shown since then (not because of the vest :lol: - just time and money), but when I get back out next year, it'll be in the vest if I'm jumping, regardless of discipline. :yes:

ETA: The Tipp Eventer also doesn't pass because you could theoretically get stabbed by something between the pieces (not likely in the hunter ring, I grant you! ;)) AND because lots of little pieces don't absorb impact the way one big piece does - and THAT should be of concern to anyone. :yes:

[enjoytheride]

I think some of the people here are doing an excellent job of perpetuating the idea that hunter riders are a bunch of stuck up snobs only concerened about winning and the latest fashion. I thought hunters was a sport and sports are concerned about safety. It might not be traditional but I can't believe the excuses people are giving.

[Weatherford]

Interesting fact about the "bulky" Chas Owen vest (similar to the one pictured somewhere on this thread). It is bulky when you first put it on, but then warms up and melds to your body. Quite nice, actually, and very comfy. Though, not as comfy as my old Tipperary, I will admit. But that's so old it wouldn't protect a flea now!! :lol:

Pony Clubbers, at least here in Ireland, MUST wear body protectors whenever mounted. I see them on most kids showing, too. Get used to it! :)

[Long Spot]

I had the same issue with a little girl I started teaching who had moved here from Scotland. At the end of the day, while she might have gotten some funny looks and whispers from other competitors (nice, huh?) the judges did their job and didn't give a damn. When she had a good round and rode well, she pinned. When she didn't, she didn't. And not because of the vest.

It took me a while to realize the whole issue I had with it was more so because it made ME stick out. I think subconciously I didn't want to be "that trainer that has the kid in a vest". When I ditched that worry, I realized to those who's opinion was worth caring about (aka nice, decent trainers who know how to train horses and kids), I was just "that trainer with the cool little kid from Scotland".

Incidentally, that cool little kid from Scotland made a movie, and is now being groomed by the country of Ireland for their team. And she still wears her vest.

[kookicat]

Interesting fact about the "bulky" Chas Owen vest (similar to the one pictured somewhere on this thread). It is bulky when you first put it on, but then warms up and melds to your body. Quite nice, actually, and very comfy. Though, not as comfy as my old Tipperary, I will admit. But that's so old it wouldn't protect a flea now!! :lol:

Pony Clubbers, at least here in Ireland, MUST wear body protectors whenever mounted. I see them on most kids showing, too. Get used to it! :)

Agree. :) I see more kids showing in body protectors than those not wearing them. :)

I always wear a BP for jumping- I don't want to take the risk. Mine has saved me from some nice bruises.

I say let the kids wear them to show in. Who cares what anyone else thinks?

[Fluffie]

One thought--wouldn't having a vest on under a hunt coat be rather HOT during summer shows (I'm thinking of our midwestern climate--very hot, boiling sun, and teriffic humidity).

I knew one younger kid who wore a vest for health reasons (she had a medical issue that made falling off a great concern). Other than in situations like that, they seem a bit overkill; there's probably more chance of overheating in the summer around here than any other malidy. :lol:

[Cita]

Slightly OT, but how much do vests really protect, anyway? Would they cushion a fragile back from a hard fall into the dirt? Would they protect against getting stepped on if the rider fell and ended up under the horse's legs?

In all the injuries I've had from riding, none of them was ever due to something sharp hitting me during a fall. Primarily it was just the cold, hard ground punishing me for falling from the sky on top of it. Does a vest protect against that kind of impact?

If so, my aching, misshapen back might appreciate me wearing one, regardless of fashion dictates...

[Noctis]

They're really helpful in ANY fall where you hit something hard...like the ground...they absorb and distribute the impact so its not quite as bad. Great for rib injuries, impact, etc. They're not magic, but they do do a lot of good, or we eventers wouldn't be wearing them, and its not for just getting poked, its for any impact! Its like a modified body helmet :-) thats not as rigid, at least in most designs.

[RAyers]

Slightly OT, but how much do vests really protect, anyway? Would they cushion a fragile back from a hard fall into the dirt? Would they protect against getting stepped on if the rider fell and ended up under the horse's legs?

In all the injuries I've had from riding, none of them was ever due to something sharp hitting me during a fall. Primarily it was just the cold, hard ground punishing me for falling from the sky on top of it. Does a vest protect against that kind of impact?

If so, my aching, misshapen back might appreciate me wearing one, regardless of fashion dictates...



Vest protect in a variety of ways. We have had numerous discussions on the Eventing Forum about this. In the most succinct way, besides puncture, the vest pre-loads the rib cage (you should have to breathe in to zip up the vest, adding stiffness and subsequently making your torso more resilient to impact. It is like putting a sheath around your body. Yes, I event and yes I have tested this more than I would like to share. I run in a Tipperary by the way.

To the OP, you are correct that it is your barn and your rules but to deny any additional safety equipment would be foolish. The best is to guide the students in their proper and effective use. Your responsibility is in appropriate safe conduct, not fashion, other than what the rules of the USEF/USHJA dictates.

I run a lab where we work with high energy and explosive materials. Undergraduate students work for me in that lab. Similar to your situation, I can NOT refuse a student who uses additional safety equipment and it is my liability if I force them to not wear it. By law it is my responsibility to teach the students proper conduct and safety.

The ASTM vest standards only cover puncture protection and body coverage. There is NO standard for impact as there is no simple method to determine internal shock damage for all of the tissues in the torso.

Reed

[loni1949]

I always wear a saftey vest when I ride due to a medical condition I need the extra support. Also, I rode with a top BNT in NJ and I was not the only one who wore a vest. They still have a few riders who wear them for lessons and 1-2 who show in them.

My final year as a junior -vest and all I placed in the top 5 in the ASPCA Maclay finals. I didn't win -due to 2 rubs in the test and a sloppy lead change- not the vest.

After my junior year I did very well while competing in college with the vest. So while it's not the normal there are people that do it.

[DancingQueen]

I don't believe that the vests protect against any and every possible injury.

However, if I imagine that I had to take a fall.... towards a standard, crash into a rail, get slammed into the kickboard or take a tumble and get stepped on, I'd rather have the vest on!
Accidents happen in the hunter ring too. Last show I went to a lady had to get airlifted out after a fall (I didn't see it but she got bucked into a standard as the story goes) in the adult hunters. Maybe if she had worn a vest she would still have had to get carried out, but not have broken three ribs in addition to her neckinjury? Wearing one would most certainly not have made it any worse.

They are certainly not a miracle cure but stating that they don't protect you at all in case you take a fall seems fairly ignorant.
I also believe (maybe I'm naive) that if you go in any of the big finals with the best trip, you will win regardless of wether you wear a vest or not.

I stand by wishing that they came in better colors and looks. I might even wear one then!

I wore one for eventing when I was younger and I actually didn't mind the feel at all.
Mine was made out of lots of little sections of hard material (imagine how mosaic backsplash comes on a net) and fit me like a glove. The newer ones all seem to be made out of one big piece, I have never tried one but they do look a little bulky and uncomfortable.

In any case, it may be the way we are heading, same as with the GPAs once everybody wears them, they won't look silly anymore. Your kids might actually have the upper hand in the long run being used to riding with them!

[DancingQueen]

Slightly OT, but how much do vests really protect, anyway? Would they cushion a fragile back from a hard fall into the dirt? Would they protect against getting stepped on if the rider fell and ended up under the horse's legs?

In all the injuries I've had from riding, none of them was ever due to something sharp hitting me during a fall. Primarily it was just the cold, hard ground punishing me for falling from the sky on top of it. Does a vest protect against that kind of impact?

If so, my aching, misshapen back might appreciate me wearing one, regardless of fashion dictates...

Funny, I wear a back brace sometimes to help my old tired back... wonder if a well fitting vest would do something similar on a day to day basis?

Back to safety issues. I think they would protect you quite a lot in a fall, perhaps not completely save you from pain you but at least cushion quite a bit. It seems they distribute the impact and would help even in a gravity against ground case (a bit like a gelpad would).
For most falls I'm sure that they don't do much. Lets face it, what usually hurts the worst after a tumble is the ego, not the body. LOL
But the vest could certainly make the damage a little smaller in those nasty falls we all hope to avoid. You may walk away feeling like you were hit by a truck, but (to repeat myself slightly) with bruises instead of broken ribs.

I hold my own ability in higher regards then it may deserve (freak accidents happen no matter how good you are) and would not wear a vest for schooling or showing in the hunter/jumper ring (I rely more on stick stuff for fresh horses but at least I have taken to always wearing a helmet), but I wouldn't have a problem wearing a vest if the rules said s and I would not have a problem with a student insisting to wear one either.

[Haalter]

My final year as a junior -vest and all I placed in the top 5 in the ASPCA Maclay finals. I didn't win -due to 2 rubs in the test and a sloppy lead change- not the vest.

Please, PLEASE tell me what kind of vest you wore and how you made it look acceptable with your turnout (over jacket, under jacket, etc). I am sure that if you had success at that level, you must have figured out how to make it work :)

[Lisa Cook]

Those of you applauding the parents for making the kids wear the vests: do you wear a vest yourself? Do you have children, and if so, do they wear vests?

Yes, I have a child who rides, and yes, I have a vest also, as I event and have to have one. Technically, my son is not required to wear a vest. He is in pony club, and believe it or not, but pony club does not require kids to wear vests even on the xc phase of a pony club rally. That boogles my mind, but I digress...

So, even though he is not required to wear a vest by the pony club rules, he does wear one. From day one, I insisted he wear it for xc schooling. Now he wears it for stadium, as well as xc. That wasn't prompted by a fall, it just seemed to make sense that if he had it, why not wear it for stadium, too? He also wears it on hunter paces, and if we do something different, like riding on the beach, or if he is practicing conditioning work with pony club.

I used to wear mine only for xc at events where it was required. But once I started asking my son to wear his, I wear mine a lot more now where I never used to...on hunter paces, for example. I figured I should be leading by example, and all that...

[medical mike]

But by virtue of your putting this statement out where it can be seen,

Quote:
"Ok, I can see the desire to keep the kids safe, but to me, this is like insisting your kid wears a football helmet and pads to play on a baseball team. However, I feel that if I tell them the safety vests aren't appropriate equipment for the hunters/eq, and one of the girls gets hurt, I will somehow have increased liability because I recommended getting rid of "safety gear". "

You are legally screwed if ANYTHING happens........

Not to mention some other comments that could be judged "suspect"........

Regards,
Medical Mike
equestrian medical researcher
www.fitfocusedforward.us

[SuperSTB]

Here Here!!! :yes:

These girls are being taught a valuable lesson by their parents that their safety is far more important than what other people think or winning ribbons. It will make them better horsemen and better people in the long run.

Abso-freaking-lutly.

I'm buying my daughter a vest. She slipped off the side of her pony, hit the ground, and pony stepped on her. It was totally random and pony is excellent packer. It happens...

As a parent- if a trainer came up to me and said "Vests aren't necessary"- I'd be shopping for a new trainer. Just to throw you a perspective.

[Come Shine]

One thought--wouldn't having a vest on under a hunt coat be rather HOT during summer shows (I'm thinking of our midwestern climate--very hot, boiling sun, and teriffic humidity).

Don't they excuse jackets when it is super hot?

Here's a pic of my little guy. Jackets were excused because it was hot. Small brag from the doting mother: Isn't he handsome? I think the vest looks so sharp. :)

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1477733&l=301e2&id=705386256

[hedmbl]

Don't they excuse jackets when it is super hot?

Here's a pic of my little guy. Jackets were excused because it was hot. Small brag from the doting mother: Isn't he handsome? I think the vest looks so sharp. :)

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1477733&l=301e2&id=705386256

Too cute :)

I'm a traditionalist and prefer to not wear a vest but I don't see a problem with anyone else wearing them. I personally wouldn't think twice about someone wearing one and I show at the very big shows. It's a personal decision and it really doesn't affect me one way or another so why should I judge them?

[DancingQueen]

#Mike
Since you seem to have some actual knowledge and I've gotten curious...

Wearing a helmet seems to be pretty standard, is there a rule here that prohibits the nonuse of a helmet for riding? Jumping? Lessoning? Under USEF rules only I presume since western riders aren't required to wear hard hats?

If your barn doesn't require hard hats for lesson students, would you be liable for injury if you did not instruct the riders/parents of the benefits to wearing a helmet?

Although safety vests are not industry standard or required in hunter/jumpers could you become liable for not informing about them? Where is the limit drawn as to personal responsibility/trainer responsibility?

At the last show I went to an adult rider from another barn got schucked into a standard and ended up seriously hurt. The side story told that she mentioned to a bystander that she was worried since her horse was feeling fresh and had not been lunged.
I had a brief conversation with the riders from our barn that was at the show about personal responsibility and how if they ever felt that their horse was too fresh they should make sure he/she got lunged if needed and not be afraid to tell a trainer that they had any concerns. Personal responsibility for what happens to you.

Where exactly does personal responsibility end and trainer responsibilities start? If a "soft" rider says, hey I'm nervous and not sure about this, can you safely say: Just do it! You'll be fine!" If that is what you truly believe?

When does it become negligence to encourage a rider to work through the problems? What does a rider have to say (or do) to recieve immunity? I'm scared? I fear for my life? I will hold you responsible? Or simply get off the horse? Does the age of th rider eg minor/adult make a difference?
If your student has uninvolved parents as opposed to knowleageable parents, does that make a difference in trainer responsibilities versus personal responsibilities?

For no particular reasons other then curiosity.

[loni1949]

If, when I have kids they ride- they won't be allowed to without a vest.. to many close calls here...

as a vest wearer I can tell you a few times I was very happy to be waring it. However, I wore mine because I need to ride with something that would support my shoulders and I found it very hard to ride in a back brace (I did sometimes) but not very often.

As a stubborn ten back in the late 90's I did not want to wear it but found a way to blend in during shows- we had it custom sized and cut down so it fit very well and I often wore it under a fitted men's jacket (I am female but men's jackets are often men wider in the shoulders.

My trainer was the one who suggested we have a 2nd vest re-done. I had one for lessons and a 2nd for shows. Now it does take a certain will and money to do that- and I understand that. Howeever for me it worked. For my needs we often felt having it fitted gave my shoulder more support

some riders had custom boots, I had a tailored vest :). .

[LookinSouth]

I'm not going to flame you for being anti-safety, I'm going to flame you for being about as smart as a sack of wet hair.

What we do in the H/J world is so radically different from what happens out on the XC course. We ride in well maintained rings over fences that collapse with easy, predictable distances and straight easy lines. The XC course is an entirely different set of questions asked at speed, over changing terrain, with solid obstacles. When you add even one of those elements - speed, changing terrain or solid obstacles - you add danger. Added danger is added risk so of course you are going to see more accidents and death compared to the bubble-wrapped, super-safe world of the Hunter ring. Quite honestly, the Hunter ring of today has little to do with it's roots anymore, which is far closer to what those wacky eventers do.
In addition,
Better to be protected and ride another day than to be a pretentious, and ignorant princess.


I was just about to compose my response to Biscotti and his/her terribly ignorant post but then I read yours and realized it was totally unneccesary:D Well said! Couldn't agree more.

[Fluffie]

Don't they excuse jackets when it is super hot?

Yes and no. It has to be stunningly hot (we're talking around 95 or so degrees), and I'm wondering if the vest wouldn't make it *that* much hotter (the magic point where the coat is still tolerable but the vest pushes temp. over the edge). However, eq riders do *not* show without coats regardless.

And people think hunter princesses are wusses. ;)

[Evalee Hunter]

. . . . So, even though he is not required to wear a vest by the pony club rules, he does wear one. . . .

It is true that pony club rules don't require a vest BUT (big, big but), at least in the Delmarva region, qualifying "3 day" rallies are part of recognized horse trials so all pony club participants DO have to wear vests. Furthermore, I am fairly sure that all levels of "3 day" competition at Nationals/Festival are also recognized by USEA & thus require a vest. Under pony club rules, pony clubbers who qualify for Nationals/Festival at a rally also have to complete another (separate) recognized horse trial, with a form filled out by the horse trial secretary attesting to their success, so, again, vest required. It's a really good thing to get your son used to it now!

[Lisa Cook]

It is true that pony club rules don't require a vest BUT (big, big but), at least in the Delmarva region, qualifying "3 day" rallies are part of recognized horse trials so all pony club participants DO have to wear vests. Furthermore, I am fairly sure that all levels of "3 day" competition at Nationals/Festival are also recognized by USEA & thus require a vest. Under pony club rules, pony clubbers who qualify for Nationals/Festival at a rally also have to complete another (separate) recognized horse trial, with a form filled out by the horse trial secretary attesting to their success, so, again, vest required. It's a really good thing to get your son used to it now!

But for pony clubbers who compete at the non-qualifying rallies - no vests required at the non-qualifying rallies. Our club hosts the Regional D rally every year, and I've been in charge of the xc jump judges for the past 3 years and I watched hundreds of Ds ride xc. I was shocked to my toenails the first year I was judging xc and realized that no vests are required at D rally. For D's!

Granted, the argument could be made that the highest they are jumping is 2'6", but they are the newest to xc riding and are going to be more wobbly on the horse than the kids who are going to pony club nationals and recognized events for their qualifying, who will have to wear vests. If anyone should be required to wear a vest, it should be Ds, IMHO.

[thelwellian]

As a rider from the UK, I can see how the parents would want their kids to wear the vests. It's just something that you're used to over there. In fact, in many jumper shows, jackets aren't mandated so that you can wear a vest easier.

Another issue that I see that plays into the whole debate are the show clothes. I think the hunter look is a tad outdated for athletics. It looks really nice, but really, who wants to be wearing a ratcatcher and a wool jacket in the summer? I think it's time to start modernizing our attire for performance. If you weren't meant to wear the jacket, it would be a lot easier (and more visually appealing) to wear a vest...

[pooh]

I used to do hunters - and I remember my shock one day when a child's mother insisted to the trainer that she wear a vest. Now I have swtiched to eventing and dressage and coundlt imagine jumping without one. I even wore one during a dressage test last spring when my greenie was being very green. I have a navy blue Tipperary and wore it over my black dressage jacket - really couldn't tell. I was worried about what people would think - then I decided it was my life not theirs. Interesting thing is I was riding in fron of one of the event riders / dressage judges who is now paralized from a fall that occured during a stadium clinic.

[Badger]

When I was a kid doing the hunters in the 70s, I was the ONLY one wearing a helmet with a harness. My dad was a pediatric surgeon who insisted that I wore a helmet with harness every time, every ride. Non-negotiable if he was going to allow me to ride. Back at that time, everyone else just wore hunt caps (the kind with an elastic band as a chin strap, and that was never pulled down anyway). He tried to get our local pony club to require protective headgear, and they wouldn't listen. (He did feel a bit vindicated years later to find out that first pony club, then hunter/jumper shows, came to require helmets.)

I remember a LOT of resistance from trainers to my dad's requirement that I wear a helmet. They said judges wouldn't pin me, that it wouldn't really add extra protection, that sticking out in the hunter or equitation ring was completely unacceptable, etc. (sound familiar?). But that trainer resistance was the only resistance I really remember. It was pretty unpleasant. However, I didn't ever feel like I was judged down for the helmet: when I had a good round I was pinned, when I had a bad round, I wasn't. Other kids sometimes made fun of me for it, but since the rule from my house was "no helmet, no horse" I just wore the darn thing and very quickly the other kids just accepted it.

For the record, I still wear an approved helmet every ride. I've even skipped the chance to wear a shadbelly when I showed FEI eventing this year as it meant I'd need to go to a tophat instead of a helmet. There may be a time when I make an exception for that situation, but it still hasn't happened yet.

All this to say: don't make a big deal of the vest with the kids and make them feel like they stick out like a sore thumb. It was my trainers who made me feel that way far more than anyone else when I was "the kid with the ugly helmet." It's not the kids' choice, it's the parents' rule, so do what you can to work with it and let the kids feel accepted by you.

An approved vest WILL offer some protection. I have a hunter friend who recently broke five ribs and a scapula when she came off her hunter when the mare popped a fence awkwardly. A vest very probably would have cushioned the impact.

The highest approval standards for vest right now are the BETA 3 (for example, one of the Charles Owens designs, and the Rodney Powell...I have the RP). The Tipperarys (what I used to ride in) offer some protection but are not certified. However, Tipperary does make a canary yellow hunt vest body protector that is designed to be worn under a hunt coat. You might want to look into that design and order it (or later cover it) with a color very close to the kid's show coat. Might work better than the standard Tip under a coat, not sure but worth looking into.

[SmileItLooksGoodOnYou]

Almost all of the riders at my barn wear them. At C shows, in all divisions no one is ever marked down for wearing one, even if it means they don't wear a jacket at all. It's not a bad substitute at all depending on the situation.

I have a good friend who wear one almost all the time. Always without a jacket in the jumpers, sometimes with a polo and sometimes with a showshirt under. (Recognized classes including levels, Childrens, high/low Jr/AO's, etc.) Under a jacket in the hunters and when she does the Grand Prixs. The only time she goes without a vest and with a jacket is in the bigeq. And she never rides at home without one.

The same is true for most all the girls I ride with. When I show in jumpers I generally wear a jacket, so I won't wear a vest. If it's warm enough I don't want the jacket I'll wear a vest over my show shirt. And I wear one at home most of the time.

If their parents want them to wear it, just let it go. If they wear a tipperary under a jacket and it shows a little in front it shouldn't be a big deal. Getting a jacket that's a touch longer will help with the bulky look too.

[2LaZ2race]

Wear a vest. I feel off schooling at home doing flat work a few years ago and actually broke a vertebrae. I have no idea if a vest would have helped this situation but I know they do provide protection, it doesn't get in my way, and its just not worth it not too! I don't have children but if/when I do they will wear vests when they start riding and always when jumping.

[whbar158]

I think if the horse and rider are otherwise turned out for the hunter ring they will not stand out as badly. There are some riders that come to our C shows that wear vests, but they also look very eventery and some of the wear the show bows, have the rein stops on their reins and usually I think most people are thinking it might be a good thing they are wearing vests.
I think if they have the navy ones that are thinner, and have good courses they will be fine. Personally I like the vest over the jacket otherwise it looks like they are hunching their back and you might not see that its the vest and not their real back.
If anyone gives you a hard time, say their parents want them to be safe and you can't argue with that.

[Haalter]

All this to say: don't make a big deal of the vest with the kids and make them feel like they stick out like a sore thumb. No worries! I have *never* discussed the vests with the kids, other than in the context that a less bulky one would look nicer for shows. I remember what it was like to be a self-conscious teen/pre-teen and am super sensitive about protecting their feelings. Not that I have any reason to believe that the kids are aware of this site, but that's why I started this thread as an anonymous poster using an alter :cool:

[Badger]

Excellent.

[MHM]

As a judge, I see a vest once in a while, though not very often.

It doesn't bother me, and I would never mark down for it, or think less of a rider for taking the precaution.

[asterix]

For the poster (a while back, I am just seeing this now) who said that you'd have to be "that much better" in eq because the vest would impair your flexibility or position.

No.

Trust me, you need to be plenty flexible to ride xc at any level, but especially at the upper levels. If the vest if properly fitted you do not notice it once you are riding and it certainly does not impair your ability to maintain a correct position over fences.

It IS hot, no doubt about that -- but I find that riding in my jacket on a hot day is just as bad. I use my vest for both the stadium and the xc phases (as someone else said, there is no good argument for NOT wearing it in stadium -- is it legal? yes. Is it safer? yes. Seen too many folks get slammed into a roll top or standard.)..the only time I noticed the heat was wearing the jacket AND the vest -- yes, that is hotter than wearing either one. Ick!

But once you are on course, jumping, you are pretty focussed. As soon as you are out of the ring, off comes the vest and the jacket.

[EasterEgg]

As other posters have said, a good number of kids (especially the smaller ones) wear a body protector for their jumping rounds at shows. I don't think that BPs look bulky or particularly out of place - but then maybe I'm just used to seeing them.

I would advise that they should be worn on top of the rider's jacket - wearing them underneath looks awful.

A few pictures for you:
http://www.horsequest.co.uk/prem7382.htm
http://www.horsequest.co.uk/ad8408.htm
http://www.horsequest.co.uk/ad8325.htm
http://www.horsequest.co.uk/adhome7846.htm
http://www.horsequest.co.uk/ad7826.htm

I think the brand that most of the showing kids wear is this one: http://www.derbyhouse.co.uk/prodshow.asp?id=268&cat=3&scats=72,102 (obviously in navy though).

Hope that helps!

[gottagrey]

It's the parents call and should be. Obviously it is something they are used to seeing and wearing. I would also venture to say that kids being kids and fashion being fashion, after a time it might be that after the family and kids see that safety vests aren't worn that much at shows, they might elect to stop wearing them - it's their call. And shame on any judge who penalizes them for safety- however, it might be that in some equitation classes the vests might not make them look as nice but that's another call. On the flip side, I've often wondered when the USEF/USHJA would be on the horn about requiring vests for Jrs... for awhile there I thought it might be coming but not so much now..

[solargal]

I have a thin safety vest that I used for riding races. I can look and see what brand it is. It is not as good as a tipperary, but it is what all the jockeys use. It is really uncomfortable riding in that position with a bulkey vest. If you are interested pm me and I will give you the info.

They will fit comfortably under the jackets and shouldn't be very noticeable, while providing some safety.

[ilaria]

i used to wear a tipperary vest when i first started riding as an adult about 3 years ago. i had a really bad accident as a kid that almost killed me (horse stepped square on my chest).
as i became better and more confident i stopped wearing it. i now show hunters and eq. at A and B shows.
this thread has inspired me to start wearing a vest again. i am looking into the CO one since it seems to be the one that has the highest certification.
maybe you'll see me at thermal this year in my vest!

[Biscotti]

I always wear a saftey vest when I ride due to a medical condition I need the extra support. Also, I rode with a top BNT in NJ and I was not the only one who wore a vest. They still have a few riders who wear them for lessons and 1-2 who show in them.

My final year as a junior -vest and all I placed in the top 5 in the ASPCA Maclay finals. I didn't win -due to 2 rubs in the test and a sloppy lead change- not the vest.

Who are they? Who are you? I'd like to know who these "successful" riders for BNTs are, winning all over in vests.

The OP was just asking for opinions regarding vests in the rated hunter/eq rings. I don't think they're appropriate, ESPECIALLY for the hunters, just like I don't think plastic helmets are appropriate, or an all-purpose saddle.

I suggest you go to a show and ask some of the top trainers and riders yourself why they don't wear vests. Very different crowd than the posters on this board.

[MHM]

I suggest you go to a show and ask some of the top trainers and riders yourself why they don't wear vests. Very different crowd than the posters on this board.

I beg your pardon?

I judged an A show over the weekend. How about you?

I think my opinion on this subject is valid, thanks very much. :)

[murph]

I have a thin safety vest that I used for riding races. I can look and see what brand it is. It is not as good as a tipperary, but it is what all the jockeys use. It is really uncomfortable riding in that position with a bulkey vest. If you are interested pm me and I will give you the info.

They will fit comfortably under the jackets and shouldn't be very noticeable, while providing some safety.

Solargal - could you post the brand here and where you can get these? I'm shopping for a new one for my daughter and so many are so bulky.

My 8 yr old daughter shows hunters and wears a vest at ALL times - flatwork and over fences, and even hacking. She wears it over her jacket. I think it looks fine. I've on occasion spoken to judges after the show and they've all said they thought it was great that she was wearing a vest, certainly no negative remarks from other competitors or judges, though maybe there are some that I haven't heard, who knows. She also does western gaming shows on the side and wears her vest in those too, again never heard any negative comments. I guess she's just known as that kid that wears the vest! She has a room full of ribbons and trophies and over 1k in winnings this past summer so she's doing OK wearing a vest :)

As a foolhardy teenager in the 70s I never wore a helmet, except for shows, the ones with the elastic chin straps. I had a crash once and broke almost every vertebrae in my spine. I don't know if a safety vest would have helped with that at all but I've also had several broken ribs and some internal injuries over the years that certainly would have been prevented with a vest.

I value my daughter much more than I value fashion. If she rides, she wears that vest and has since she was 2 yrs old. She is A-OK with it, it's just normal to her like putting on a helmet. She's a talented and gutsy rider, she doesn't wear one because she's in danger of always falling off lol. But the few times she has come off I was thankful she had it on and I'm sure she suffered if nothing else less bruising due to wearing it. I really don't care if there are people who think it's not cool or whatever.

As other posters have said, in the UK it's standard apparel for kids, just like approved helmets. I really wish it was the same here, maybe it will be one day.

[EventFan]

I think it has to be the parent's call. I have a friend whose teen daughter was riding her greenie, he spooked and did a "teleport" move and daughter slammed into the ring post. The accident wasn't at high speeds, over fences, or otherwise dangerous riding. As a result she spent about a week in ICU, broken ribs and collapsed lung amoung other things.

This girl is back riding, but MUST wear a vet to protect her lung as it continues to heal. She's an amazing rider, vest or no vest. You cannot be marked down for safety equipment-especially if you lay down an amazing trip. :yes:

[seeuatx]

Who are they? Who are you? I'd like to know who these "successful" riders for BNTs are, winning all over in vests.

The OP was just asking for opinions regarding vests in the rated hunter/eq rings. I don't think they're appropriate, ESPECIALLY for the hunters, just like I don't think plastic helmets are appropriate, or an all-purpose saddle.

I suggest you go to a show and ask some of the top trainers and riders yourself why they don't wear vests. Very different crowd than the posters on this board.

And yet, why should I respect those opinions when it centers around what is fashionable? How is it any different than a dressage trainer or a western trainer saying to a student that helmet simply isn't needed and no one else would be wearing them? I would rather see someone in a plastic helmet than a huntcap or western hat that is about as safe as a piece of cardboard on their head

It is the right of the parents to choose safety equipment for their kids. Europeans seem to think that children should wear safety vests when jumping, and I can't think of any reason other than american hunter sense of fashion, to say that they are wrong. I have heard and experienced several compelling reasons that children (and quite frankly myself) should be wearing a vest when jumping, but I have heard no compelling reasons (excluding fashion) not to.

[bascher]

I suggest you go to a show and ask some of the top trainers and riders yourself why they don't wear vests. Very different crowd than the posters on this board.

Excuse me? Many of us, myself included, show at the big A or AA shows and there are also many R rated judges on this board as well. Not that I really see how it matters at what level someone riders or shows at; safety is safety, but if you are basing your argument on what you think top trainers/riders want to see, you've already gotten their opinions and many of them disagree with you.

[hedmbl]

Out of curiosity...do you have to replace a vest in the same way you have to replace a helmet? Is there a limit for the amount of impact they can take before being essentially useless?

[open oxer]

This is between the parents and the children. You have given them your advice, and it is their choice to do with it what they wish. If the parents want the children to wear the vests, then they need to wear the vests. End of story.

[Kementari]

Those looking at the thinner vests for riding over fences might want to look at the BETA explanation of their levels: http://www.beta-uk.org/Safety/ProtectStandard.asp

While the decision is, of course, up to the individual (or the parents ;)), those lightweight jockey vests are not intended for anything but racing. If you want to wear a vest for protection, it just seems logical to wear one intended to protect you for the actual activity you'll be doing! :yes:

As for fashion being more important than safety, whatever your sport, I suppose natural selection will be served. But then, I wear a helmet to ride western, so what do *I* know? :lol:

[MHM]

lightweight jockey vests are not intended for anything but racing. If you want to wear a vest for protection, it just seems logical to wear one intended to protect you for the actual activity you'll be doing! :yes:



Wait, you're saying there's a horse activity MORE dangerous than racing?!?

The idea of falling off at 40 miles an hour and possibly getting run over by the rest of the horses in the race sounds pretty dangerous to me.

At any show I've ever been to, the EMT sits in one place. At the races, the ambulance follows the horses around the track. That would give me pause. :eek:

[Scott Free]

racing vests are level one - the lowest rating. The highest rating is a 3 - and for all of you so quick to go out and spend a couple of hundred bucks on your little blimp suits, please be aware that the only group to even pretend to try and rate these riduculous attempts to get you to empty your wallet thinking you are saving your neck, please be aware that the HIGHEST rating - 3 - offers the following protection:

*Prevent minor bruising that would have produced stiffness and pain.

*Reduce significant soft tissue injuries to the level of bruising.

*Prevent a limited number of rib fractures.

"safety" is a false assumption. They resrict enough movement to impede natural balance reactions - whether or not that could actually CAUSE an accident or injury is for the next "independent tester" to discover.

Don't slam the poster that asked who the BN riders are that wear them - I've never seen one either.

[Come Shine]

Don't slam the poster that asked who the BN riders are that wear them - I've never seen one either.

Maybe there is a huge untapped market here? Kind of like the 'funny' helmets that all the pros wear now. :)

[MHM]

I suggest you go to a show and ask some of the top trainers and riders yourself why they don't wear vests. Very different crowd than the posters on this board.

Scott Free-

I won't speak for others, but I took exception to the implication that "the posters on this board" had no clue about what goes on at the bigger shows.

[bascher]

Scott Free-

I won't speak for others, but I took exception to the implication that "the posters on this board" had no clue about what goes on at the bigger shows.

100% agreed.

[*Teddy*]

I recently bought the eventer vest by tipperary(in navy) and i will wear it for jumping and even at hunter shows!!

the fitted eventer vest is ASTM/SEI BETA 7


My questions to the fellow wearers on top of show coat or under

[spina]

I won't speak for others, but I took exception to the implication that "the posters on this board" had no clue about what goes on at the bigger shows.

It would be easy to be a bit miffed by that unless you look at this thread. I think they meant this "thread" not this "board", although I must say the number of knowledgeable, experienced, A circuit riders that post on this board seems to be rapidly diminishing and it's too bad.

Funny that so many posters on this thread are actually eventers. who (forgive me) are not famous for their sense of fashion, and even they only wear their vests for the cross country phase (not jumping or dressage).

I can completely understand nervous parents wanting their little kids to wear them, but you have to admit there's not much evidence (actually, I don't think there's any) supporting any benefits. Maybe they could make them with an extra layer of superball rubber so the kids will bounce.

[solargal]

Solargal - could you post the brand here and where you can get these? I'm shopping for a new one for my daughter and so many are so bulky.

My 8 yr old daughter shows hunters and wears a vest at ALL times - flatwork and over fences, and even hacking. She wears it over her jacket. I think it looks fine. I've on occasion spoken to judges after the show and they've all said they thought it was great that she was wearing a vest, certainly no negative remarks from other competitors or judges, though maybe there are some that I haven't heard, who knows. She also does western gaming shows on the side and wears her vest in those too, again never heard any negative comments. I guess she's just known as that kid that wears the vest! She has a room full of ribbons and trophies and over 1k in winnings this past summer so she's doing OK wearing a vest :)

As a foolhardy teenager in the 70s I never wore a helmet, except for shows, the ones with the elastic chin straps. I had a crash once and broke almost every vertebrae in my spine. I don't know if a safety vest would have helped with that at all but I've also had several broken ribs and some internal injuries over the years that certainly would have been prevented with a vest.

I value my daughter much more than I value fashion. If she rides, she wears that vest and has since she was 2 yrs old. She is A-OK with it, it's just normal to her like putting on a helmet. She's a talented and gutsy rider, she doesn't wear one because she's in danger of always falling off lol. But the few times she has come off I was thankful she had it on and I'm sure she suffered if nothing else less bruising due to wearing it. I really don't care if there are people who think it's not cool or whatever.

As other posters have said, in the UK it's standard apparel for kids, just like approved helmets. I really wish it was the same here, maybe it will be one day.

Here is a website that sells them. The price seems a bit higher than what I paid for mine, but that was quite a few years ago.

Scroll down to find them.
Excalibur Vest
http://thejockeyshop.com/lockerroom.htm

[MHM]

It would be easy to be a bit miffed by that unless you look at this thread. I think they meant this "thread" not this "board", although I must say the number of knowledgeable, experienced, A circuit riders that post on this board seems to be rapidly diminishing and it's too bad.



Meh.

"Posters on this board" is a direct quote. I won't guess that the person who wrote it meant something else when the words are right there in black and white.

It's fine to have a difference of opinion. It's not so fine to disparage others to support that opinion.

[Kementari]

please be aware that the only group to even pretend to try and rate these riduculous attempts to get you to empty your wallet thinking you are saving your neck, please be aware that the HIGHEST rating - 3 - offers the following protection:

If you are going to be so offensive, you might at least get your facts straight. BETA is far from the "only group" to rate vests: there are also standards in place through ASTM and EN (the European equivalent of ASTM) at the least.

*Prevent minor bruising that would have produced stiffness and pain.

*Reduce significant soft tissue injuries to the level of bruising.

*Prevent a limited number of rib fractures.

And preventing those injuries is bad because...

No, a vest won't prevent every injury. People die of head injuries wearing helmets, too, but I still put one on every ride for the protection it DOES provide. I have a friend who ended up in the hospital with internal bleeding because his horse tossed him onto a frozen plowed field (so the ridge he landed on was pretty much rock hard). If there had been something between him and the ground to keep that ridge from driving straight into his kidney - like, say, a vest - he would still have been sore, but probably the ICU would not have been involved. I fail to see how that's a BAD thing.

(You might be interested to learn, too, that there is a relatively new product on the market that does protect against crush injuries: http://www.bodycage.co.uk/ )

"safety" is a false assumption. They resrict enough movement to impede natural balance reactions - whether or not that could actually CAUSE an accident or injury is for the next "independent tester" to discover.

:rolleyes: You do realize that these are not NEW products, right? That eventers have been wearing them for decades? That we wear them over undulating territory, at the gallop, jumping fences that are much scarier and have far worse consequences for being unbalanced than your average hunter round? Don't you think if vests were going to cause accidents we might have NOTICED by now?

Wait, you're saying there's a horse activity MORE dangerous than racing?!?

The idea of falling off at 40 miles an hour and possibly getting run over by the rest of the horses in the race sounds pretty dangerous to me.

At any show I've ever been to, the EMT sits in one place. At the races, the ambulance follows the horses around the track. That would give me pause. :eek:

:lol: I agree! But the fact is that jockeys also have to be as lightweight as possible, and so they sacrifice some of their safety to achieve that. (Yet another reason I'll never be a jockey...though at 5'8" that was never really in danger of happening. :winkgrin:)

I recently bought the eventer vest by tipperary(in navy) and i will wear it for jumping and even at hunter shows!!

the fitted eventer vest is ASTM/SEI BETA 7


My questions to the fellow wearers on top of show coat or under

The Tipperary Eventer is not manufactured to ASTM standards, and BETA 7 is (very) outdated. Personally I think it's unfortunate that Tipperary still puts that label on the vest, because although it is technically true, it is very misleading to people who think they are getting an approved vest when in fact they are not.

And my vote is for over the coat, because I think it makes people look like football players to have them under - but YMMV. :winkgrin:


Funny that so many posters on this thread are actually eventers. who (forgive me) are not famous for their sense of fashion, and even they only wear their vests for the cross country phase (not jumping or dressage).

I'd hazard that's because eventers are the ones who've been using the vests for years and years, and have more knowledge of them. Plenty of eventers wear their vests for stadium, and it's not totally unusual to see one in dressage, either.

[enjoytheride]

Just when you think that Hunters are pretty cool normal people a couple stuck up hunter princesses come dancing in and claim that they aren't fashionable, are blimp suits, and you will never get anywhere in the hunter world because judges will not pin you.

Perhaps you need to spend more time with your horse (instead of all the time your groom spends with him) and less time being concered about being fashionable. Sure it's not common, sure it will stand out but if someone wants to be safe it really isn't any of your business and there is an actual rulebook that allows vests with no penalties. Just do your best to not snicker and point when the poor kids can see you since it's what their parents want.

[Haalter]

enjoytheride, Get Over Yourself. Just because this isn't a standard piece of safety equipment in my discipline doesn't make me an idiot or a hopeless snob. If you've read the whole thread, you'd see a lot of support for these vests from H/J people as well as my open-minded comments re: their use. And snickering at the kids is hardly part of my program.

Talk about stereotyping! Whether they wear vests or not, my students groom their own horses and spend just as much time getting to know them as the average eventer teen. It's 9:45 in my time zone and I'm about to go up to my barn to change 25 horses from sheets to blankets because I don't employ grooms to do that...but thanks for the assumption, you know what they say about that...

[Scott Free]

Just when you think that Hunters are pretty cool normal people a couple stuck up hunter princesses come dancing in and claim that they aren't fashionable, are blimp suits, and you will never get anywhere in the hunter world because judges will not pin you.

Perhaps you need to spend more time with your horse (instead of all the time your groom spends with him) and less time being concered about being fashionable.

what a piece of work you are. even I wouldn't go so far as to label all eventers a-holes just because of a few moronic posts. or infer that if you spent as much effort on your riding as you do attacking others for a difference of opinion you might actually stand a chance of not killing your horses.
Idiot.

[Alterageous]

As an EMT I shudder to think of trying to work around that bodycage vest in the event that it did not in fact allow someone to walk away from a major fall.

That said, I think the vests are fine. As long as they fit and are worn outside the jacket (so it's obvious the kid is wearing a vest and not that she is hunching her back or built like a linebacker).

[HuntrJumpr]

I just wanted to add that I really like the idea of making a matching vest cover - vests are bulky and, in my opinion, uncomfortable, under a jacket. If it matches the coat, the judge will likely barely notice and as someone else pointed out, they can't technically mark them down. It's not a bad idea to wear a vest for riding and especially jumping. That said, I don't, but I certainly do anytime I am on a horse that makes me uncomfortable. (I know, I know. Anything can happen on any horse).

[Kementari]

As an EMT I shudder to think of trying to work around that bodycage vest in the event that it did not in fact allow someone to walk away from a major fall.

It has an easily accessible and well-marked key in the vest for EMS personnel should an accident occur.

JER who posts here (or on the eventing forum, anyway) has one and is also an EMT, and is satisfied with the access provided. :yes:

[2LaZ2race]

"safety" is a false assumption. They resrict enough movement to impede natural balance reactions - whether or not that could actually CAUSE an accident or injury is for the next "independent tester" to discover.

.

I just have to ask how YOU know that they restrict movement enough to impede natural balance? Esp after watching people like Phillip Dutton going cross country in them (I think he's got damn good balance 90% of the time!) Just yesterday I did a jumper show and I did my jumper classes w/o the vest and then we went cross country schooling right after and I put the vest on. I felt no difference in my balance or ability to complete the tasks presented to me.

[Alterageous]

It has an easily accessible and well-marked key in the vest for EMS personnel should an accident occur.

JER who posts here (or on the eventing forum, anyway) has one and is also an EMT, and is satisfied with the access provided. :yes:

I think I'd have to handle one and see how the mechanisms, etc work. Maybe I'll go pick one up as a training device for the squad.

[medical mike]

And the realistic limitations of the soft nature of present Torso protectors.
To be sure, soft and hard (think MX) torso protectors have different characteristics and thus =/-'s.

Sorry to all who think so, but they did the studies.......NO torso protector made restricts motion, period. It is the sensation that is different, not the motion. You have the same motion with or without one on.

Just to start folks thinking this again......why don't folks learn how to fall and not be afraid of becoming a projectile? Far better option to get your hands out in front of you then rely on a vest to protect you in a close setting.

Legally, that is the argument. Where does person responsibility start. Hard question to answer.


Quote: "If your barn doesn't require hard hats for lesson students, would you be liable for injury if you did not instruct the riders/parents of the benefits to wearing a helmet".............
Without Question.......What you are describing is a standard of care. You have to work to at least that to minimally protect yourself.

You following questions are all valid...I guess I can only repeat what was told to me....."A good lawyer will find fault in anything."..

Regards,
Medical Mike
equestrian medical researcher
www.fitfocusedforward.us

[baymare]

Putting a shadbelly on a child in jodhpurs and hair ribbons and a skunk helmet is a far greater sin against the sacred traditions of proper hunting attire than putting an inconspicuous and appropriate piece of safety equipment on that same child. Truly, showring attire has already deviated so far from its historical origins in the hunt field that I can't see that wearing a vest would make any difference whatsoever.



ps.-- just to clarify on the "skunk helmet" crack-- While I think that a shadbelly and topper are incomparably elegant (but only on an adult, of course), and I myself spent some of the best years of my life ripping around across the countryside with my reins in one hand and the other keeping my derby on my head, today I firmly believe that for ANYONE to ride ANY HORSE at ANY TIME without a properly secured, approved helmet is inexcusable.

[RAyers]

...They resrict enough movement to impede natural balance reactions - whether or not that could actually CAUSE an accident or injury is for the next "independent tester" to discover.

....

Can you be any more wrong? Let's see, I run XC at upwards of 800 meters per minute, the fences go up to 4' with 10' base spreads and we have 7' drops. And you are telling me I do that with reduced natural balance reactions? Wow, I am a better rider than I think. I guess I need to do the jumpers where I am sure I can be even better since I don't have to wear a vest!

Reed

[Donkey]

Can you be any more wrong? Let's see, I run XC at upwards of 800 meters per minute, the fences go up to 4' with 10' base spreads and we have 7' drops. And you are telling me I do that with reduced natural balance reactions? Wow, I am a better rider than I think. I guess I need to do the jumpers where I am sure I can be even better since I don't have to wear a vest!

Reed

Exactly. I'd love to see some hunter/jumpers approach a 7' drop, I think they'd be clammering for a BP - and then they would know...

Don't knock it 'till you've tried it.

[JER]

As an EMT I shudder to think of trying to work around that bodycage vest in the event that it did not in fact allow someone to walk away from a major fall.


Like Kementari said, I'm also an EMT and an eventer and I own/wear an EXO body protector.

The vest dissembles easily (very easily) by using an allen key which is contained in a well-marked, clearly-labeled flap on the side of the EXO. Conventional body protectors don't have any instructions on how to take them apart and it's not always obvious to the uninitiated. You can read more about it and see photos on the BodyCage website (http://www.bodycage.co.uk/index.html).

If you go to the website, you'll see a video of a rotational fall with a rider wearing an EXO. Rider gets up unscathed. In the UK just a few months ago, there was a rotational fall in which the rider took a very direct hit from the horse and suffered only minor injuries (an arm fracture, I think) because she was wearing the EXO.

The EXO is a superior piece of equipment. I have talked it up for years and you can do a search if you want to read my posts on it. If you have specific, EMS-related questions, PM me so we don't bore the masses with shop talk. :)

(WoofWear has done presentations for ambulance services in the UK to instruct them about the EXO and they made sure that all EMS units at BE horse trials had extra allen keys on their rigs. If you want to talk about the EXO to your squad, you might consider emailing WoofWear for some of their instructional materials.)

[MHM]

If you go to the website, you'll see a video of a rotational fall with a rider wearing an EXO. Rider gets up unscathed.

Show of hands. Who else watched that video over and over? Yikes.

You guys who event, more power to you. I'll stick with the jumps that fall down, thanks. :eek:

[SmileItLooksGoodOnYou]

I have to point out that our jumps in H/J land can hurt pretty badly because they come apart.

Anyone ever torn their side open on the edge of metal jump cup? I haven't... and my vest is the reason why. I am fully aware that metal jump cups are going out, being replaced by easy-to-adjust plastic ones with standards that don't have to be drilled for pins, just equipped with a pre-drilled plastic strip. However, there are still fences in the warm-ap arenas and hunter rings with metal cups.

I wouldn't worry about the kids wearing a vest.

And for whoever asked this is my friend who rides big classes in a vest.... she was wearing a vest under he jacket when this was taken. Same thing at young riders... under the jacket. The jacket was tailored to fit over a vest.


http://www.annegittins.com/scripts/store/imageFolio.cgi?action=view&link=00010-Pennsylvania_National/Junior_Jumper_Individual&image=img_9150.jpg&img=42&tt=&tfile=tn_img_9150.jpg

[EasterEgg]

Like Kementari said, I'm also an EMT and an eventer and I own/wear an EXO body protector.

The vest dissembles easily (very easily) by using an allen key which is contained in a well-marked, clearly-labeled flap on the side of the EXO. Conventional body protectors don't have any instructions on how to take them apart and it's not always obvious to the uninitiated. You can read more about it and see photos on the BodyCage website (http://www.bodycage.co.uk/index.html).

If you go to the website, you'll see a video of a rotational fall with a rider wearing an EXO. Rider gets up unscathed. In the UK just a few months ago, there was a rotational fall in which the rider took a very direct hit from the horse and suffered only minor injuries (an arm fracture, I think) because she was wearing the EXO.

The EXO is a superior piece of equipment. I have talked it up for years and you can do a search if you want to read my posts on it. If you have specific, EMS-related questions, PM me so we don't bore the masses with shop talk. :)

(WoofWear has done presentations for ambulance services in the UK to instruct them about the EXO and they made sure that all EMS units at BE horse trials had extra allen keys on their rigs. If you want to talk about the EXO to your squad, you might consider emailing WoofWear for some of their instructional materials.)

JER - wasn't sure if you'd seen this bit of news re the EXO? http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/article.php?aid=267628&cid=397

[Ajierene]

My take on the vests -

I went from Hunter/Equitation to eventing. The first season I Evented, they were not required at the unrecognized shows at the lower levels. I resisted getting one (even though I was chided often by my instructor). I thought it would restrict my movement and hamper my riding. For Christmas, my step-mom got me one - by the end of my first season, I had to borrow a vest because I had started riding at the level the required them.

The first time I put it on, I felt fine. I did not wear it before my first show. Unlike my tall boots, it did not require any 'getting used to' or 'breaking in time'. The vest that I have I wear in stadium as well as cross country, in my area stadium is usually run directly before cross country.

The only issue I would see with my particular vest is that the back is extended to cover down to the end of the tailbone. If I sit back in my saddle it sometimes catches - so a posting trot may be a bit of an issue, but I am in half seat or two point almost the entire time I am wearing it, so it is not an issue for me. Interestingly, I have never had an issue sitting back for a drop fence, so the issue with the extended back may be more in my mind than in reality.

[LookinSouth]

Putting a shadbelly on a child in jodhpurs and hair ribbons and a skunk helmet is a far greater sin against the sacred traditions of proper hunting attire than putting an inconspicuous and appropriate piece of safety equipment on that same child. Truly, showring attire has already deviated so far from its historical origins in the hunt field that I can't see that wearing a vest would make any difference whatsoever.
.

Well said. And actually there are people that hunt wearing safety vests, for obvious reasons.....I know of one older gentlemen that does and I have seen a number of children with vests on while hunting.

[enjoytheride]

Haalter, it's nice that you asked the question about vests and seem to be open minded about it and I wasn't talking about you.

The reason hunter riders get that HP label is because they seem to be more concerned about fashion then safety. Is it a sport or a fashion show? When I had a british made jumping saddle with a round cantle I had a tack store and a trainer tell me that I would not pin in a class because the judge would see the round cantle on my saddle. I'm not there for a fashion show so if the judge wants to spend the round staring at my saddle trying to see the cantle and not if my trip is smooth then I don't want to waste my hard earned money.

I had a friend who stewards ask several hunter judges if they noticed the brand of breeches or type of saddle and they all laughed and said no. They were sitting too far away usually and were more interested in the round. So the attitude seems to come from the riders and not the judges.

If it's a sport then wearing a vest shouldn't matter. I'd just hate to think of a kid going to a horse show and having an adult tell them that their vest was a "blimp suit" and that the safety standards were a crock. I seem to remember the same hysterical fit over wearing an approved helmet. It might not be standard wear but it's the parent's choice and its a piece of safety equipment.

[Jsalem]

Another Hunter trainer piping in here. No, it isn't a "fashion" show, but "looks" count. You are trying to create a beautiful, elegant picture. There is a lot of "packaging" that goes into producing that hunter look. One small thing, like a round cantle on a saddle or like a safety vest probably wouldn't ruin the look- but I wouldn't choose a round cantle! The judge probably doesn't notice what brand of breeches or boot or whatever, but I guarantee you, he sits up and notices when a "beautiful picture" walks into the ring.

To the OP, it's a sticky situation. I think I would have to just respect the parent's decision to suit those kids up. The big worry for us trainers is the current atmosphere that someone has to be at fault when an ACCIDENT occurs. When I was a kid, it was a given that if you got on horses, sooner or later you were gonna fall off. As a trainer, I try to do everything I can to avoid falls- proper matching of horse and rider, proper tack, proper management of the horses (feed, turnout) and education including constant safety awareness. Still, they're gonna get tossed. We worry ourselves sick about liability these days. I don't think my parents looked for someone to "blame" when I was a kid hitting the ground.

I have the same struggle with the peacock (safety) stirrups. Once a kid learns to ride correctly, I personally don't think they're necessary. A proper sized stirrup, placed correctly on the foot, with the heel down- a peacock stirrup is overkill. But I never mandate that a kid give them up. I tell the parent that it's their call. I've never had a student that didn't leave them behind as they moved up.

The safety vest- maybe it's overkill, but if it makes the parent happy, I'd just let it go. I'd just smile and call it her "armor".

[Mav226]

I would use the football/baseball analogy you used here. It makes perfect sense. Maybe after they've been around the show scene a while they will be clued in to what people do and do not wear in each discipline.

Or maybe ask if they'd like some bubble-wrap to go with the vests ;)

[grandprixjump]

And yes I'm guilty of making the comments of Not having the right saddle, the right color horse, the right boots, etc, you won't win... I personally believe that mindset came from a class that doesn't even exist anymore, except at the biggest shows, the APPOINTMENTS class, where the judge would come into the ring and leave drunk:lol::lol::lol:, because, if the flasks were properly filled it would be with wine, and sandwich carrier had to have a particular type of sandwich in it, etc..
-
The PARENTS have the final say in whether the kids wear the vests or not, right now LIVE WITH IT, if they get to MACLAY Finals, you will see they might not use it then, but depending on their ages, and the way you talk they are very young. There is NOTHING wrong with being safe...

[Mav226]

But by virtue of your putting this statement out where it can be seen,

Quote:
"Ok, I can see the desire to keep the kids safe, but to me, this is like insisting your kid wears a football helmet and pads to play on a baseball team. However, I feel that if I tell them the safety vests aren't appropriate equipment for the hunters/eq, and one of the girls gets hurt, I will somehow have increased liability because I recommended getting rid of "safety gear". "

You are legally screwed if ANYTHING happens........

Not to mention some other comments that could be judged "suspect"........

Regards,
Medical Mike
equestrian medical researcher
www.fitfocusedforward.us

That's why you're not a lawyer ;) She's not screwed in that situation. Not any more than any other trainer with a sue-happy parent.

[Trixie]

A vest can be interperted as nontradional and a rider or pair could or should be judged down for it, if the judge so chooses to do so. They do it for much less glaring things, like having unusual bit (read, all that not d-rings or pelhams), having an unbraided horse, or bad hunter hair, whatever. It's hunters and it is a fashion show.

That’s patently untrue, as someone has already stated. The rulebook is eminently clear that it considers a vest a piece of safety equipment. It’s one thing to walk into the ring looking like a mess – it’s another to be perfectly turned out and wearing a vest with your hunt coat. As long as all other pieces of equipment are spotless and within the rules, I fail to see how wearing something that is perfectly and deliberately within the rules should be such an enormous issue.


Who are they? Who are you? I'd like to know who these "successful" riders for BNTs are, winning all over in vests.

I suggest you go to a show and ask some of the top trainers and riders yourself why they don't wear vests. Very different crowd than the posters on this board.

Why are the names important to you?

I’ve been showing for over a dozen years, “A” rated for quite some time. I’m really confused what “crowd” you feel that the “posters on this board” consist of, but believe me, as a whole, we’ve done and seen it all. Now, I don’t wear a vest personally, but that’s my decision. If you don’t feel the posters on this board have anything to offer, maybe you should find somewhere where your expertise might be more appreciated.


The OP was just asking for opinions regarding vests in the rated hunter/eq rings. I don't think they're appropriate, ESPECIALLY for the hunters, just like I don't think plastic helmets are appropriate, or an all-purpose saddle.

Plastic helmets and an all-purpose saddle are not a safety decision. You may “not think” they’re appropriate, but as I said earlier: they are perfectly and DELIBERATELY within the rules.

Perhaps you need to spend more time with your horse (instead of all the time your groom spends with him) and less time being concered about being fashionable.

This, quite frankly, is the stupidest and most presumptuous argument I consistently hear on an internet bulletin board. This is where we discuss issues that are pertinent to horses and where we go if we have questions. The OP, as a trainer, had a question, since her riders will certainly be wearing a piece of equipment that differs from the “norm” in our venue, and it’s a perfectly valid question to want a consensus on. I fail to see how this prevents any of us from spending time with our horses – and why the hell are you assuming that our “grooms” are the ones spending time with them?

Why on earth do people make so many ridiculous assumptions about how others spend their time?

To the OP: as long as everything else is perfect and spotless, your kids will be fine, and you can cite the rulebook if they get marked down. I wouldn’t argue with the parents, and you won’t be able to face them if you insist they remove the vest and something happens.

[Janet]

A vest can be interperted as nontradional and a rider or pair could or should be judged down for it, if the judge so chooses to do so. They do it for much less glaring things, like having unusual bit (read, all that not d-rings or pelhams), having an unbraided horse, or bad hunter hair, whatever. It's hunters and it is a fashion show.
Any judge that marked down a rider for a safety vest would be in DIRECT violation of GR801.4
4. Any exhibitor may wear protective headgear (ASTM/SEI) and/or a protective safety vest,
specifically designed for use in equestrian sport in any division or class without penalty from
the judge. The Federation recommends that the vest meet or surpass the current ASTM
standard or be certified by the Safety Equipment Institute. BOD 6/26/07 Effective 12/1/07

I know at least one judge has had his/her name published in the back of "Equestrian" for violating GR801.4

[LSM1212]

Coming from the Hunter world and now dabbling in the Eventing world... I have to admit, that the vest took some time for me to get used to. But after wearing it a few times.... I was fine. Yes, it's hot in the warm weather. But it's nice to have in the cold! :)

You would think I'd wear a vest all the time after my accident (4 broken vertebrae)... but I don't. Didn't grow up wearing one. But on goes the vest when: my horse is being especially fresh (I can tell it's going to be one of those days when I groom and tack him up), I'm riding alone (no one is at the farm), we do any XC work in the fields at home or off the property and of course, at an eventing show.

My trainer has even commented that I should probably wear it all the time as I tend to come off on the flat. :lol:

I've always felt... to each his own. If you want to wear it at a hunter show, go for it. But I've never been the "typical" hunter person on turn out and I tend to be the "rebel" (see a post from earlier this year about 1/2 chaps). :lol: To me, it should be all about looking "tidy". And you can do that with a safety vest, 1/2 chaps, no hairnets, etc. JMO, of course.

My horse is a Hunter though he is really enjoying the Eventing stuff we are doing. So I may dabble in the Jumper world instead. :) Though we don't have the speed.

I'd say, don't fret about it.... if the kids parents require that they wear the vests... so be it. Show or no show.

[Everythingbutwings]

To me, it should be all about looking "tidy". And you can do that with a safety vest, 1/2 chaps, no hairnets, etc. JMO, of course.

I am all for tidy but there is a difference between tastefully neat and being A show polished.

I was at (Upperville I think) a show several years ago and noticed a competitor wearing a safety vest in the hunter ring. My only question was why wear it over the jacket rather than underneath but it's within the rules and a matter of choice.

If someone feels safer, they tend to ride better. Ride better vs present a nicer picture with clothes? The first, nicest picture had better be how well the horse performs and the rider chose to do what best enhanced the performance over looking like an ad for a clothier.

I would imagine that particular person felt it was less expensive to wear the vest over her show coat rather than buy all new show coats several sizes up. :)

[gottagrey]

That’s patently untrue, as someone has already stated. The rulebook is eminently clear that it considers a vest a piece of safety equipment. It’s one thing to walk into the ring looking like a mess – it’s another to be perfectly turned out and wearing a vest with your hunt coat. As long as all other pieces of equipment are spotless and within the rules, I fail to see how wearing something that is perfectly and deliberately within the rules should be such an enormous issue.

Why are the names important to you?

I’ve been showing for over a dozen years, “A” rated for quite some time. I’m really confused what “crowd” you feel that the “posters on this board” consist of, but believe me, as a whole, we’ve done and seen it all. Now, I don’t wear a vest personally, but that’s my decision. If you don’t feel the posters on this board have anything to offer, maybe you should find somewhere where your expertise might be more appreciated.



Plastic helmets and an all-purpose saddle are not a safety decision. You may “not think” they’re appropriate, but as I said earlier: they are perfectly and DELIBERATELY within the rules.



This, quite frankly, is the stupidest and most presumptuous argument I consistently hear on an internet bulletin board. This is where we discuss issues that are pertinent to horses and where we go if we have questions. The OP, as a trainer, had a question, since her riders will certainly be wearing a piece of equipment that differs from the “norm” in our venue, and it’s a perfectly valid question to want a consensus on. I fail to see how this prevents any of us from spending time with our horses – and why the hell are you assuming that our “grooms” are the ones spending time with them?

Why on earth do people make so many ridiculous assumptions about how others spend their time?

To the OP: as long as everything else is perfect and spotless, your kids will be fine, and you can cite the rulebook if they get marked down. I wouldn’t argue with the parents, and you won’t be able to face them if you insist they remove the vest and something happens.

I've seen plenty of riders both top level and not such top level, pros and not pros ride in knee braces, back braces as well - why should that be any different than a safety vest? Safety/supportive equipment should not be deemed "nontraditional" and therefore as Janet showed previously is not marked down for. Sometimes function/safety takes precedence over fashion.

I also used to balk at the trainers who would tell parents and their clients that the judge would not pin them in a ASTM/SEI helmet (before the rule change) that type of thinking is shameful and I cannot believe that people listened to that bunk

[poltroon]

It's been fascinating to me to see the evolution of the skunk helmet. I personally prefer the all velvet helmets, but once GPA got the top riders to wear their very expensive helmet with the very nontraditional styling, EVERYONE was wearing them. Now they're "in". And it happened in a very short timeframe.

There are even fiction books for kids out with covers showing a girl in show attire with her skunk helmet, you know, to show that it's a modern new story.

Indeed, I expect that in 10-20 years I'll be reading a thread on COTH with someone wondering if it's OK to wear a fully velvet covered helmet, and someone writing that they're "legal, but non-traditional." :D

In the jumpers these days, it seems commonplace to see everyone riding in polo shirts. If anything, a safety vest (in tasteful colors) would be more elegant than just a polo shirt.

As for its effect on equitation and position, you don't slouch in a body protector. :D

I come from hunters and equitation. I have my vest for eventing. I haven't generally worn my vest for stadium because a coat is required, and because I could never figure out how to wear it with a coat.

If anything, maybe it's time to think about tasteful conservatively colored body protectors INSTEAD of hunt coats.

If we can come to embrace the skunk helmet, anything is possible.

[CrazyDog]

I think that there are vests that are designed for jockeys that are smaller and lighter. They do not have th highest possible rating, but then the kids won't be jumping solid obstacles. I think that they look fairly inconspicuous under silks so I would imagine that they would look alright under a coat.

Yes, there are different levels of body protectors. The thinner ones don't look as bulky but also don't provide the same level of protection. They would probably not be legal to event in, for instance. Since the parents value safety over appearance, they might be unlikely to switch.

[ef80]

Indeed, I expect that in 10-20 years I'll be reading a thread on COTH with someone wondering if it's OK to wear a fully velvet covered helmet, and someone writing that they're "legal, but non-traditional." :D
...

If we can come to embrace the skunk helmet, anything is possible.

Hillariously, this is already happening - it isn't under the banner of 'non traditonal' yet, but it's under the banner of 'Eww' though. It's really fun to be one of the 'old people' at the barn, who can speak to fashion and trends over the last 15-20 years and listen to the tack-room chatter of teenagers who obviously KNOW EVERYTHING.

[Janet]

Yes, there are different levels of body protectors. The thinner ones don't look as bulky but also don't provide the same level of protection. They would probably not be legal to event in, for instance. Yes they would (be legal for eventing). It is only "recommended" that they meet the ASTM std.

[MHM]

Yes, there are different levels of body protectors. The thinner ones don't look as bulky but also don't provide the same level of protection. They would probably not be legal to event in, for instance. Since the parents value safety over appearance, they might be unlikely to switch.

This is a little off topic, but it seems crazy to me that the jockeys don't wear the MOST protective vests. They have to be the ones risking their lives the most every day they go to work. That is a dangerous job.

Even if the thicker vests weigh a couple of extra pounds, it seems like they should be required. If they have to alow, say, three extra pounds for every horse in every race to save the lives of jockeys, that seems like a fair trade off to me.

It's like the helmets that every USEF hunter rider wears now to jump- if the rule applies to everybody, there's no possible penalty.

[CrazyDog]

There is another option that I only now thought of. In UK riding magazines, I have started to see advertisements for air jackets. Basically, parts of the jacket inflate to protect your spine and neck in the event of a fall.

The jacket has a cord that you attach to your saddle and when the cord detaches the jacket (or vest) inflates. These are much thinner than body protectors but would probably still need to be worn over the jacket in order to work properly. If they came in black or navy, they might be a good option.

A drawback would be that the vests wouldn't protect the rider in the event the horse slips and both horse and rider go down together. Also, because the vests aren't as obvious as body protectors, they might not be recognized by judges as safety equipement.

[Badger]

Wild!

Never heard of that before, but this is what google turned up:
http://www.point-two.co.uk/

Recommended to be worn with a traditional body protector.

[Jsalem]

Well that visual it just kinda funny. You'd look like a tethered balloon!

Honestly, I know that safety is really important, but at what point does this cease to be a sport? Helmet? sure. Safe equipment? sure. Responsible instruction? sure. But full body armor? I don't know.....

[Sandy M]

Here's me in my vest for dressage (spooky youngster). If my jacket were one size larger, I could have worn the vest underneath. Even on top, I don't think it looks that bad, and probably LESS bad for someone going around over fences:

http://inlinethumb60.webshots.com/38779/2467052650103428920S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2467052650103428920XfrNdq)


Parents want them to wear the vests, then they should wear them. However, I think it would be reasonable to ask them to get something less bulky, like the one I'm wearing, in order to accommodate to some degree the hunter ring emphasis on appearance.

[RAyers]

Well that visual it just kinda funny. You'd look like a tethered balloon!

Honestly, I know that safety is really important, but at what point does this cease to be a sport? Helmet? sure. Safe equipment? sure. Responsible instruction? sure. But full body armor? I don't know.....

How does the use of safety equipment make something NOT a sport? Shall we ask pro hockey or football players? Oooo, I know, let's ask pro bull riders, oh, hold it, they wear safety vests too. I know, NASCAR, F1, motocross...nope they all wear helmets and some variety of bodily protection. Hmmm... a sport where a person risks life and limb and doesn't wear appropriate safety equipment such as helmets or body armor?

I am sorry but the satement that something ceases to be "sport" if you wear safety equipment is rather myopic.

Reed

[enjoytheride]

My point about the grooms is that outside the hunter world many people steer far away because of the impression they get. They think that hunter riders are a bunch of princesses who have the drugged robo horse who is lunged for hours by an illegal alien and are only concerned about the latest fashion and how it helps them win. Every time someone argues that fashion will be judged is a time when the sport is done no favors.

(There are plenty of people on this BB that don't fit that stereotype)

People seem to forget that many things that are fashionable today were never seen before. D ring snaffles, approved helmets, warmbloods, knee rolls, zippers in boots, and light weight coats are all new things.

The last big fashion fight was the battle over approved helmets. Now it's the battle of who has the most fashionable approved helmet and how it helps you win.

Along with the round cantle (on a jumping saddle, not an all purpose saddle) I was told I needed a helmet with a stripe, and that the judge could tell the difference between an ATH and a GPA.

[Jsalem]

How does the use of safety equipment make something NOT a sport? Shall we ask pro hockey or football players? Oooo, I know, let's ask pro bull riders, oh, hold it, they wear safety vests too. I know, NASCAR, F1, motocross...nope they all wear helmets and some variety of bodily protection. Hmmm... a sport where a person risks life and limb and doesn't wear appropriate safety equipment such as helmets or body armor?

I am sorry but the satement that something ceases to be "sport" if you wear safety equipment is rather myopic.

Reed

Nowhere in my post did I say that safety equipment should not be used or that if any safety equipment is used, it ceases to be a sport. Baseball, Football, etc have always used safety equipment. Just like in riding, innovations have improved that safety equipment- better helmets for instance. I'm just wondering if safety vests are an innovation that will become the norm- and then what? Wrist guards so our wrists don't snap? A frame around our collar bones? A neck brace? We just can't pad up everything. Wrap ourselves in bubble wrap and I think we lose the sport. Part of playing sports is the physical, and yes, dangerous. Children today wear a helmet to ride their bikes- we never did and lived to tell the tale. I always, always wear a helmet to ride- I don't know about a vest. It seems like overkill.

Is the additional safety equipment (like vests) a great thing or a knee jerk reaction to our litigious society? Just some musings......

And BTW, note that I would not mandate that a child lose the vest if the parent wanted them to wear one.

[RAyers]

Nowhere in my post did I say that safety equipment should not be used or that if any safety equipment is used, it ceases to be a sport. Baseball, Football, etc have always used safety equipment....

Wrap ourselves in bubble wrap and I think we lose the sport...


In these two sentences, you contradict yourself. At some point if riders want to be considered athletes along with the rest, then we need to start acting like athletes and stop considering "fashion" or "that was what we used to do and we survived."

In the past we survived on our bikes without a helmet but we also did not have 21 speed mountian bikes that can go down trails that look physically impossible. My one speed can even come close to my mountain bike and I know I am physically slower. I see young kids bombing down whacked out courses at the ski areas in the summer and they wear all of the motocross gear, thankfully. Horse sports, like all sports evolve to become more extreme and to take a finer and finer edge (as much as folks try to deny it, it is true).

Football had no helmets or pads but as players got larger and speeds went up, the equipment had to change. The same for hockey and motocross.

[seeuatx]

Nowhere in my post did I say that safety equipment should not be used or that if any safety equipment is used, it ceases to be a sport. Baseball, Football, etc have always used safety equipment. Just like in riding, innovations have improved that safety equipment- better helmets for instance. I'm just wondering if safety vests are an innovation that will become the norm- and then what? Wrist guards so our wrists don't snap? A frame around our collar bones? A neck brace? We just can't pad up everything. Wrap ourselves in bubble wrap and I think we lose the sport. Part of playing sports is the physical, and yes, dangerous. Children today wear a helmet to ride their bikes- we never did and lived to tell the tale. I always, always wear a helmet to ride- I don't know about a vest. It seems like overkill.

Is the additional safety equipment (like vests) a great thing or a knee jerk reaction to our litigious society? Just some musings......

And BTW, note that I would not mandate that a child lose the vest if the parent wanted them to wear one.

My Grandfather, the 89 year old retired orthopedic surgeon would completely disagree with everything you just said. When I grew up, my brother and I (and my mother before us) wore bike helmets and pads long before they were de rigueur because of some of the children he had treated in emergency rooms in the 50s, 60s, and 70s. To this day he remembers the names of the kid that slammed his head into the road after falling from his banana seat bike. He remembers the kid who broke his neck jumping on the trampoline... his head went between the springs. He remembers the high school freshman who died after suffering catastrophic brain injury when tackled during a football game (this was back in the day when a leather flap covered their ears... that was their "helmet"). I remember a classmate of my brothers... a first baseman who took a foul ball to the temple. Yep, those hats do a lot to protect your head :no:

The reason we have this equipment is because of the accidents that have come before. Accidents will always occur... but we would be idiots not to at least try to stave of the worst results. Isn't there a saying about the definition of insanity being repetitive action that goes wrong, without an attempt to fix what is going wrong?

[Trixie]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My point about the grooms is that outside the hunter world many people steer far away because of the impression they get. They think that hunter riders are a bunch of princesses who have the drugged robo horse who is lunged for hours by an illegal alien and are only concerned about the latest fashion and how it helps them win. Every time someone argues that fashion will be judged is a time when the sport is done no favors.

Maybe you can again try to explain to me what having a groom has to do with discussing fashion v. safety at the horse shows in a forum about showing horses? And further, why you're suggesting to those discussing it that they go spend more time with their horses, as opposed to their "grooms" spending time with their horses?

And PLEASE, by all means, explain to me how you got from people saying that they don't like safety vests in the hunter ring to how hunter riders are "a bunch of princesses who have drugged the robo horse who is lunged for hours by an illegal alien and are only concerned about the latest fashion and how it helps them win."

Yeesh.

[RugBug]

The reason we have this equipment is because of the accidents that have come before. Accidents will always occur... but we would be idiots not to at least try to stave of the worst results. Isn't there a saying about the definition of insanity being repetitive action that goes wrong, without an attempt to fix what is going wrong?

Okay...so I think Jsalem is trying to say that there is risk inherent in any sport and is looking to the future to some point when we're so mandated with safety rules that what we are doing hardly resembles the sport it once was. When the line is pushed so far to the side of safety that we can't get on a horse without full body armor. You see this in society today. People are afraid of risk, consequence and responsibility. So scared of injury that they can't even get started. So worried of the 'what ifs' that they never.

I don't think that this is that situation necessarily. Safety vests aren't usually worn in hunters/jumpers. They can be if one would like...and you CANNOT be penalized for it. If the parents want their kids to ride in vests, let them.

But who wants to see safety vests mandated for hunter/jumpers? It's not an impossibility. With this litigious society that is scared of accepting risk, consequence and responsibiliy, the rules will continue to get more and more restrictive. Just ask some folks what they are doing with their top hats these days.

[JER]

I'm just wondering if safety vests are an innovation that will become the norm- and then what? Wrist guards so our wrists don't snap? A frame around our collar bones? A neck brace? We just can't pad up everything. Wrap ourselves in bubble wrap and I think we lose the sport. Part of playing sports is the physical, and yes, dangerous. Children today wear a helmet to ride their bikes- we never did and lived to tell the tale. I always, always wear a helmet to ride- I don't know about a vest. It seems like overkill.


Safety, like health care/medicine in general, is dynamic, not static. There are always new studies, new research, new materials, new ideas and when the data and research suggests a way to prevent injuries, accidents or death, we incorporate these ideas in various practical applications.

I know you were writing in jest but I'll address your specifics. A 'frame' won't protect your collarbone from a riding fall. Clavicle fractures are usually axial or torsional loading injuries. Same goes for your neck. Getting stepped on is a different issue called blunt force trauma -- a frame might help in that case. But my point is, you have to know what your trying to prevent in order to protect against it. So there's no real point in padding things up when padding isn't the answer.

I see no reason to fear or denigrate the science of safety and actual improvements in safety.

The increased use of bike helmets for children has been linked to a decrease in hospitalizations for bike-related accidents. One helmet advocacy group claims over 80% of all bike-related head injuries are prevented by helmets.

As an EMT, I can tell you there's a huge difference between getting a call for a car accident with an unrestrained driver than for a driver who was wearing a seatbelt. If it was a crash at any speed over 30mph, we expect a real mess and often an ejected driver/passengers. I'm sure you didn't wear a seat belt growing up but data shows a lot of people suffered more serious injuries or death due to a lack of seat belts.

[enjoytheride]

Trixie, you seem to be misreading my intent. There was a poster that compared wearing a safety vest to not having correct hunter hair and seemed to think the judge would not place you for either. It's statements like this that make non-hunter riders think that you are a bunch of snobs with grooms and drugged horses. I don't care if you have a groom. There are tons of people on this BB that do not fit that stereotype, but for every 50 of them there is someone in a tackshop telling a customer they need a mini IRH for their 6yo so the judge will look at them. You risk loosing them to a sport where the brand doesn't matter.

When I started jumping I had a similar experience in a tack store. First they asked who my trainer was. Then they showed me a $3,000 saddle. Since I was new to jumping and not sure if it would stick I asked to see the used saddles but the clerk told me that I would need a new saddle for showing in. I was looking at field boots too and was encouraged to go custom because nobody wore off the racks to show in. It really turned me off and I switched to eventing, it was only after I met some very cool hunter riders that I learned that nobody really cared about things like that and I started to dabble in hunters. I wear the appropriate clothing, but my boots I bought off of ebay and my saddle is used and repaired. I know that some people might shake their heads in disguist but for the most part hunters are just as welcoming as any other sport.

The OP cared to take the time to inquire about vests and it seems the kids don't have a choice if they want to ride. I like that as a trainer she's open to new ideas, cares enough to find out about something she isn't familiar with, and I certainly hope that the kids keep riding with her and start to enjoy hunters (which is very alien to the British). Since she is so cool with the idea she has attracted two brand new people to the sport that with someone else might have been pushed away into something different.

[MHM]

I'm sure you didn't wear a seat belt growing up but data shows a lot of people suffered more serious injuries or death due to a lack of seat belts.

I was thinking the same thing. Just because we all survived without them, that doesn't mean we can't use safer methods as we get older and (hopefully) wiser. We didn't grow up with airbags in cars either, but they've saved plenty of lives in the last decade or two.

I know somebody who combined safety methods. She forgot to take off her helmet when she left the barn, and got in a car accident. Her head hit the windshield, but between her seat belt and her helmet, she walked away without so much as a headache.


When I started jumping I had a similar experience in a tack store. First they asked who my trainer was. Then they showed me a $3,000 saddle. Since I was new to jumping and not sure if it would stick I asked to see the used saddles but the clerk told me that I would need a new saddle for showing in. I was looking at field boots too and was encouraged to go custom because nobody wore off the racks to show in. It really turned me off and I switched to eventing, it was only after I met some very cool hunter riders that I learned that nobody really cared about things like that.

I have to point out that it sounds like the problem was not with the hunter discipline, but with a tack shop employee who had an eye on the profit margin, and wanted to sell you the most expensive versions of everything you needed. That could have just as easily happened if you went into a tack shop to buy a dressage saddle or a Western saddle.

[Trixie]

It's so easy to refute these sorts of claims without calling people nasty stereotypes. You could've merely refuted the previous poster's commentary by stating the rules. Hard to argue with that.

When you walk in here and start rambling about hunter riders who disagree with your perspective are a bunch of snobs with grooms and drugged horses, you're going to have some people take offense.

It's statements like this that make non-hunter riders think that you are a bunch of snobs with grooms and drugged horses.

Really, though, by all means: how on earth does "drugged horses" come into this? Or grooms? I'm just simply not seeing the correlation, unless you're deliberately trying to further stereotypes. Someone stating their slightly ill-informed viewpoint on turnout, of all things, is on no level along the same lines as someone who drugs a horse for their own gains or abuses illegal immigrants. Not even close.

[dainty do]

Our barn has the opposite situation. Our main hunter/jumper trainer came from England, and she insists that ALL students under 18 MUST wear a safety vest. I am over 18, so theoretically this may not apply to me.

But I couldn't help but notice that during a recent clinic, a student wearing a safety vest did a very scary dismount into the standard. She was able to get up, dust herself off, give a dramatic bow, go catch her horse, and finish the clinic. This accident could have been anywhere from tragic to just very painful, but in any estimation the vest prevented a potentially serious injury.

Now, I want one.

A special thanks to MHM for letting us all know that we shouldn't be penalized for wanting to be safe at a show.

Also, thanks to the OP for asking this question.

[DancingQueen]

Just for information. I wrote this e-mail to Charles Owen

Subject: safety vests


Here's an idea for you. Safety vests are becoming ever so slightly more popular also in the hunter/jumper world here in the US. The big issue is the look of them. They are generally a bit bulky and comes only in black, blue or green.
Perhaps coming up with a "light" design would be a good marketing idea? Fex slighly thinner, they would not have to be classified for crosscountry but for regular riding and stadium jumping. Comfortable to wear under a showcoat and in tan for hunters or white for GPs (and Swedish junior riders). Or just stick with the regular models but market in tan and white.
I think that if you come up with a good design it could potentially increase sales in the US quite a bit, huge untapped market!
If this concept already exists. Please let me know where to find them.
Thank you for your time

And got this reply:


Hi,

Thank you for your interesting e-mail. I have actually been following the Chronicle forum that generated all this stir about safety vests in the hunter market. The idea of what I'm reading is that while not many people would wear a vest in the hunter ring, the general concensus is that someone shouldn't be chastised if they chose to do so. Am I correct?

To manufacture a thin vest, which would be discreet under clothing, would actually provide very little protection to you in the event of a fall, or especially if a horse landed or stepped on you. It would essentially be an "apparel only" type item, and we feel would provide a false sense of security to the wearer. There is no different classification for a cross country vest, verses a show jumping vest, therefore, to produce a vest safe for general jumping, it needs to meet the same criteria whether cross country or hunter/jumper. You will find that the uncertified vests currently on the market are very thin, and actually provide very little protection. We feel the the whole point of wearing a vest is to prevent as much damage to the ribs, spine and vital organs as possible and we have tried to design our vests to do just that, which means they must be a certain thickness. Our vests at Charles Owen are dual certified, carring both the ASTM and Beta level 2 or 3 certification, depending on the style. I hope I've been able to answer your questions, and we thank you for thinking of us.

[DancingQueen]

Seems to me that the safety will be compromised with a lighter vest, so that would clearly not be a great option.

I don't think the issue of look (yes girls, it is that important to look fly at all times. LOL) was addressed. I don't see any reason that the vest should not be able to get tweaked a little for looks without compromising safety.

For now I guess the best alternative is your own custom cover. I envision tan below the waist, and white on top. Perhaps an old pair of breeches can get utilized to cover the bottom and hey, while we're at it, maybe the front of an oversized showshirt can cover the front and extend all the way up to the choker.

Maybe this will be the invention that makes me rich since somebody apparently is already marketing my other scheme (dark colored "pantyliners" for sweat reduction under your helmet. LOL)

[dainty do]

Thanks DQ! Sounds like the technology for a light vest is not quite here yet. I think I'll just setttle for now (Vest over jacket). In theory, we shouldn't be penalized for wearing a safety vest in a show. Next spring, I may have the guts to try and wear one in an adult medal class. Hope it goes well.

[Kementari]

I don't think the issue of look (yes girls, it is that important to look fly at all times. LOL) was addressed. I don't see any reason that the vest should not be able to get tweaked a little for looks without compromising safety.



CO's vest already comes in white: http://www.charlesowen.co.uk/en/products/bps/index.php (click on "Ultralight" and then "Colour"). :yes:

[DancingQueen]

Nice! Good to know.
I figured it must at this point, but all the pics was of green, black or blue vests and that query wasn't really answered in the mail.
I guess I should have done a little more research. LOL!
I still think a button down front with a choker attachment would be super fly.

What do you guys think, if I start a line like that would you get one? LOL

[LookinSouth]

Our barn has the opposite situation. Our main hunter/jumper trainer came from England, and she insists that ALL students under 18 MUST wear a safety vest.
.
I think anyone that has come off wearing a safety vest into a standard, hit the ground hard or into a jump whether it be stadium or XC can attest that vests DO make a difference in the impact level and the riders ability to walk away. I watched a friend fall onto a solid XC jump a month ago and if she hadn't been wearing my vest I'm willing to bet would not have gotten up so quickly. I wish I was wearing my vest when I got flung into the fence boards of an arena a few weeks back. Now that I think about it I really should wear it more often than I currently choose to do.

[Sandy M]

I think anyone that has come off wearing a safety vest into a standard, hit the ground hard or into a jump whether it be stadium or XC can attest that vests DO make a difference in the impact level and the riders ability to walk away. I watched a friend fall onto a solid XC jump a month ago and if she hadn't been wearing my vest I'm willing to bet would not have gotten up so quickly. I wish I was wearing my vest when I got flung into the fence boards of an arena a few weeks back. Now that I think about it I really should wear it more often than I currently choose to do.

Yup. Been riding my youngster in one all the time. I hit the ground last fall HARD when he over-reacted to something (3.5 yrs old, with me riding at night, in a dimly lit arena, alone....) and I was walking funny for a week. Bought a vest that weekend (I evented in the era before they existed, let alone were required - late 70s/80s). About a month later I came off again, and it was a pleasant surprise to be able to get up immediately and catch the little (16.2 ;0)) bugger, without having to catch my breath, check for broken bones, etc.

[Equinoxfox]

Okay so back in the day when I was a child ( over 25 yrs ago) no one had these kind of worries. I mean there is a chance of accidents in all sports. There is a chance of falaties also .
So next it will be wearing wrist guards. Leg braces. Come on . stick with the tradition and learn to ride properly . ;)

[2bayboys]

Back in the day we all wore helmets that were essentially cardboard on the inside and either had useless elastic chin straps or none at all. We all survived the advent of GPAs and mushroom head helmets and we have all accepted it.

I think the kids should wear the vests if the parents want them to. The judges will hopefully judge the *trip*, not the outerwear. And it absolutely does not matter what anyone else at the horse show thinks about it.

[Jsalem]

I remember "back in the day" you would fall off your horse and your helmet would land 10 feet away. I'm all for the improved safety of today's helmets. That's an easy one- tradition always held that riders wore helmets. The old ones were "articles of apparel" and the new ones are "safety equipment".

As an earler poster commented, I'm torn on the vest thing. I wouldn't insist that one of my riders lose the vest if that made the parent comfortable. I'm not sure I would like to see it become stardard. Perhaps I would need more education on the benefits. I read with interest the earlier posts re: bicycle helmets. I've never personally known any child that suffered a serious bicycle accident- so to me, the helmets seem like overkill. Sounds like others with more experience would not agree with me.

I do have a lot of experience with riders. Helmets are a great idea. Can't tell you how many times I see a fall and think- thank god for the helmet. Maybe a vest would be a good idea for those "body slam" falls that knock the breath out of you. What I usually see in the H/J ring are falls that result in concussion (helmet), broken arm, leg, collar bone (?), broken pelvis(?). What common or possible H/J injuries would a vest serve? Back injury?

[Gray Horse H/J]

I followed this whole thread, and think it's interesting, people's different views on this.

I think, first off, that if the parents want the kids to wear the vests then the kids need to wear the vests. *I* would not want to be the person who suggests not wearing one, then the kid falls and gets hurt, and the parents come after me for suggesting they didn't need a vest. People are sue-happy these days and quick to place blame.

My second thought is that if the kids ride enough, or show enough, to start noticing that the other riders really aren't wearing vests, *they* may bring it up to the parents. Kids like to fit in. If they feel like they don't it becomes a parent/kid argument - and the trainer can stay far away from that one.

Maybe the kids actually like the vests, or just don't care. In which case, let them wear the things.

I can 100% understand where the OP is coming from on this. Like it or not, the hunter world IS based on the "whole picture". No a rider cannot be penalized for the vest, but if 2 stellar trips are laid down, and the judge has to choose between the rider w/a vest and the rider w/out a vest, well he/she may choose the rider w/out a vest. Judging in the hunter ring is totally subjective.

Obviously if the rider with a vest lays down the best trip, that rider should win. I'm talking if the judge has to make a call because 2 trips were really that close.

I've never worn a vest. Never thought to. After reading this thread I still won't. If I start showing hunters again, I won't then either. For me, it's overkill.

I have my doubts that vests would become mandatory, like approved helmets. But ya never know.

Interesting thread.

[PaintPony]

I am probably the only person this has ever happened to, but back in the days with my old horse I used to do low level eventing. My vest actually caused a fall once when I caught it on my saddle over a jump. (Don't ask me how it happened - I am a freak when it comes to falling off. :))

Now if someone would only invent some sort of butt protector I would buy that in a heart beat. Maybe like an airbag that goes off when your ass is about to hit the ground? I seem to only fall on my butt lately. :lol:

[WW_Queen]

One small thing, like a round cantle on a saddle or like a safety vest probably wouldn't ruin the look- but I wouldn't choose a round cantle!

Someone would seriously get dinged for a ROUND CANTLE? Did I read that right??

I was looking at doing some hunters/eq with my guy as a change from eventing. Based on some of the opinions here I think I'll head over to the jumpers! :eek:

[Lucassb]

Originally Posted by Jsalem http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=3661027#post3661027)
One small thing, like a round cantle on a saddle or like a safety vest probably wouldn't ruin the look- but I wouldn't choose a round cantle!


Someone would seriously get dinged for a ROUND CANTLE? Did I read that right??

I was looking at doing some hunters/eq with my guy as a change from eventing. Based on some of the opinions here I think I'll head over to the jumpers! :eek:

I think you've misunderstood what JSalem was saying. The point is, given the opportunity, most people will CHOOSE the tack and equipment most typical for their discipline. For example, most hunter riders wouldn't buy a black bridle if they were purchasing a new bridle; they would buy brown.

That doesn't mean you'd get dinged for having a black bridle (or a round cantle in the original example) ... It's just common sense that if a hunter rider was buying new stuff, they'd most likely pick whatever was more typical for that discipline.

[KPF]

The way I see it, as technology has improved, participants in other sports have increased the standard protective items they wear. Why should riding be any different, for the sake of tradition? I mean, I don't think I'd want it to be mandated that people have to wear vests at shows but if they wanted to wear one, I certainly wouldn't be against it.

Personally, I used do horse trials when vests were not required, in the 80's, with no vest and with one of those old ass worthless helmets. However, I shattered a vertebra in my back last year in a freak fall while hacking at a walk on my own farm. I always wore an approved helmet, luckily, otherwise I may have had head injuries too.

I started riding again in June and have been jumping small stuff again. I'm getting ready to get an older horse on free lease and since I don't have an arena at home yet, will have to ride in the barnyard or pastures. Guess what I ordered last week? Yup, a level 3 rated vest. I figure it's worth it for a little more peace of mind. To me, falling off on hard "natural" ground is a lot different than falling off in a groomed arena with good footing. I honestly don't know if I'd have broken my back had I been wearing a vest, but it damn sure wouldn't have made my injuries any worse! :lol:

[LookinSouth]

What I usually see in the H/J ring are falls that result in concussion (helmet), broken arm, leg, collar bone (?), broken pelvis(?). What common or possible H/J injuries would a vest serve? Back injury?

it would certainly help prevent back injuries, broken ribs, bruises to the chest/body and really any injury that could affect the chest and other vital organ areas. Even bruises to the ribs can take months to heal and can be quite painful. I can imagine how vests could either prevent or minimize quite a few injuries. Especially falls in which the rider falls face down into jumps or standards and/or lands flat on their back/stomach hard.

[Sandy M]

My take is this: I am primarily (now) a dressage rider. I evented to Intermediate, did "B" level hunters/jumpers, competitive trail, etc. in the past. In other words, pretty experienced rider. Had few falls, none serious, during all those years. The only time I got "seriously" injured, was on a casual trail ride, jumping a small log, horse hit a slick spot on landing and pancaked on me before I could kick clear, giving me a fracture dislocation in my foot (6 months on crutches). Most of those years I wore a Caliente, which was the only "safety approved" (as opposed to "apparel") helmet available.

Since I'm doing dressage now, obviously appearance is very important there, too. And wearing a vest certainly doesn't send the message to the judge that the horse should get a high mark on submission!!! On the other hand, I'm riding a 4 year old, under saddle barely more than a year. So his first shows (all 2 of them) have been at Intro level, and at the first one he spooked violently three times during the test. None were enough to get me off, but they COULD have been worse, and frankly, I'm happy to be wearing the vest "just in case." I'm not a "scaredy cat" or a timid rider, but as I get older, I AM more cautious. Will I continue to wear the vest as he matures? Probably not, but for the time being, definitely. And if I start jumping him, I will wear it. If any judge - dressage/hunter or whatever, chooses to penalize me for it, so be it. A higher placing isn't worth the risk of broken ribs/vertebrae.

[RugBug]

it would certainly help prevent back injuries, broken ribs, bruises to the chest/body and really any injurty that could affect the chest and other vital organ areas. Even bruises to the ribs can take months to heal and can be quite painful. I can imagine how vests could either prevent or minimize quite a few injuries. Especially falls in which the rider falls face down into jumps or standards and/or lands flat on their back/stomach hard.

In all my years of falls in H/J lands, I've never bruised areas that would be covered by a vest. I've gotten some significant bruises on my thighs and butt. I've broken an arm. I've severly sprained an ankle. I've strained some hip adductors. I've been kicked in the head. Given a black eye and bloody nose a few times. But my stomach/chest area has always come away unscathed.

Now, I'm not saying that a vest wouldn't ocassionally come into play in the H/J world, but what it protects has never needed much protecting in my experience. I'll take the risk.

And now I will go knock on some wood.

[LookinSouth]

In all my years of falls in H/J lands, I've never bruised areas that would be covered by a vest. I've gotten some significant bruises on my thighs and butt. I've broken an arm. I've severly sprained an ankle. I've strained some hip adductors. I've been kicked in the head. Given a black eye and bloody nose a few times. But my stomach/chest area has always come away unscathed.

Now, I'm not saying that a vest wouldn't ocassionally come into play in the H/J world, but what it protects has never needed much protecting in my experience. I'll take the risk.

And now I will go knock on some wood.

Apparently you've just been lucky enough to not experience injuries to the chest and back region. I know plenty of riders on the flat and o/f who HAVE myself included and I'm not talking about riding XC. Take the risk if you so desire, I don't ride with my vest hardly ever to be honest. It's not my mission in life to convince Sally and Susie over in hunterland to always wear a vest while jumping in the ring. Heck, I'm stupid enough to foxhunt and hunter pace XC without my vest which I really should re consider.But...I won't ever kid myself into thinking they are not 100% purposeful in the safety department or "overkill". If someone else chooses to wear it so be it. Alot people think ski/snowboard helmets are overkill too and their not "fashionable" on the ski slopes either. Like I said, I wish I was wearing said vest 2 weeks ago when I got flung off a bolting pony into 4 board arena fence and suffered bruised ribs, strained shoulder and cuts/bruises to the back. Vest would have came in handy.

[Kementari]

I've taken two vest-less hard falls onto my back that I believe would have been more, er, comfortable (odd word to use referring to a fall, I know ;)) if I'd had a vest. Both times I landed with my back bent, once "centered" on my lower back and once on my upper back. My upper back has never been the same (soft tissue-wise) since the latter - methinks it probably warranted a trip to the ER, but I had no health insurance so didn't go. I can't say whether a vest would have helped for sure, of course, but it sure seems like it would have. Both falls were doing flat work; the more severe was off a green horse and if I'd had a vest at the time I would have been wearing it - I definitely wear it now for similar situations.

Now that it's getting dark at such an unfortunate hour, I'm wearing mine for our roadwork, too - my horse is traffic-safe (and I use lights), but it's enough riskier riding by myself in the dark that it just seems prudent. Plus, hey, it keeps me that much warmer! :winkgrin:

ETA: I do wear a ski helmet, too, even though it's not "popular" (at least around here - snowboarders wear them more, but not skiers). I like to increase my odds of returning from my sports with my body in roughly the same shape as I started... :lol:

[Sandy M]

Like I said, I wish I was wearing said vest 2 weeks ago when I got flung off a bolting pony into 4 board arena fence and suffered bruised ribs, strained shoulder and cuts/bruises to the back. Vest would have came in handy.

Amen! A former pro I know (who has reclassified to amateur due to age considerations), bought a new horse a few years back - very young, green, big. Like many non-eventing pros, s/he never wears a a vest. The young horse did a not particularly awful buck, but followed it with a spin, s/he came off, landed awkwardly and broke a couple of ribs and re-broke a previously injured shoulder. Ya think s/he might have been better off wearing a vest? Not that s/he does so now, several years later (and with a new, older, more broke horse), but it sure helped convince me, as an older rider (or even as a not so old rider), that it's a good investment, and fashion (or even comfort on a hot day) be damned .

[LD1129]

I have seen dressage riders wear them and I think its just fine. I do not wear a vest but I do wear my helmet showing with my 4 year old instead of my hunt cap.

My take is this: I am primarily (now) a dressage rider. I evented to Intermediate, did "B" level hunters/jumpers, competitive trail, etc. in the past. In other words, pretty experienced rider. Had few falls, none serious, during all those years. The only time I got "seriously" injured, was on a casual trail ride, jumping a small log, horse hit a slick spot on landing and pancaked on me before I could kick clear, giving me a fracture dislocation in my foot (6 months on crutches). Most of those years I wore a Caliente, which was the only "safety approved" (as opposed to "apparel") helmet available.

Since I'm doing dressage now, obviously appearance is very important there, too. And wearing a vest certainly doesn't send the message to the judge that the horse should get a high mark on submission!!! On the other hand, I'm riding a 4 year old, under saddle barely more than a year. So his first shows (all 2 of them) have been at Intro level, and at the first one he spooked violently three times during the test. None were enough to get me off, but they COULD have been worse, and frankly, I'm happy to be wearing the vest "just in case." I'm not a "scaredy cat" or a timid rider, but as I get older, I AM more cautious. Will I continue to wear the vest as he matures? Probably not, but for the time being, definitely. And if I start jumping him, I will wear it. If any judge - dressage/hunter or whatever, chooses to penalize me for it, so be it. A higher placing isn't worth the risk of broken ribs/vertebrae.

[LookinSouth]

ETA: I do wear a ski helmet, too, even though it's not "popular" (at least around here - snowboarders wear them more, but not skiers). I like to increase my odds of returning from my sports with my body in roughly the same shape as I started... :lol:

'I wear a ski helmet as well and your right, their not popular for skiers on the slope at ALL. A cute hat to match my ski coat would really look so much nicer but honestly I value my head too much to take the risk. It paid off my first season wearing it when a nasty fall due to ice caused one of my skis to flip up towards my head and HIT ME IN THE HELMET ( thank god). I have noticed an increase in popularity with the helmets among skiers over the years though. Slowly but surely.

[seeuatx]

For Jsalem: I'm not sure if my parents still have the picture of my bike helmet after I crashed. I know they were thankful for gramps' insistance that his grandkids wear them. I was riding on an outdoor basketball court when my back tire slid into a small patch of grass. I went over the handle bars with enough force to put a 4inch crack in my helmet and snap through both my radius and ulna in my right wrist.

Kementari and Lookinsouth: I actually wear a skateboarding helmet when I ski. I never used to (well they did not have them when I started skiing... at age 2), and only started late last season after I saw the video of the American who crashed at Worlds (I think it was worlds... his ski approved helmet snapped right off and he ended up in convulsions at the bottom of the slope... he survived though). Anyway, I went with a skateboarding helmet because they have similar testing standards as bike and riding helmets. Ski helmets, to my knowledge, have no standards at this point.

Back to safety vests: I am not worried about vests becoming mandatory. I doubt it would ever happen, and it is none of my business what someone else chooses to wear or not wear. But I do have an issue with people saying that a parent choosing extra safety over fashion are in the wrong, and trying to come up with ways to dissuade them. I think there is a difference between taking available measures that have been proven in the riding field, and coming up with every method someone can think of to "bubble wrap" riders (anyone remember the person who tried to invent a riding seat belt... that was a bad idea stemmed from good intentions).

[enjoytheride]

To the poster who said "learn to ride" I don't think it's about skill although I'm sure skill can come into play. Accidents happen even if you are a pro. I've seen pro riders come off hard and I've seen freak accidents. I've seen horses make mistakes, freak and go over backwards, horses slip in poor footing, and many other things that don't have anything to do with skill.

[Come Shine]

LOL. After all the talk about not seeing top level h/j riders in vests, lo and behold, opened the latest issue of Horse Sport and there's a pic. Margie Gayford and Showgirl, winner of the Seven- & Eight-Year-Old Young Horse National Final. That's us Canadians. Always ahead of the curve. :)

[Bogie]

Back when I was a child, during the same time period, people got injuries that could have been prevented had safety equipment been better.

Accidents happen and, unfortunately, learning to ride properly doesn't always prevent bad things from happening.

Personally, I find it strange that anyone would want to prevent a parent from having their child use a product that just might keep them safer.

Okay so back in the day when I was a child ( over 25 yrs ago) no one had these kind of worries. I mean there is a chance of accidents in all sports. There is a chance of falaties also .
So next it will be wearing wrist guards. Leg braces. Come on . stick with the tradition and learn to ride properly . ;)

[asterix]

Vests can be ordered with shoulder protectors. These can certainly help prevent broken collarbones.

I have them, never notice them. Some poster on the eventing board once described a bunch of newbies, "you know, the kind that wear shoulder pads on their vests..."

That same year I got the chance to talk to William Fox-Pitt, one of the world's best and most accomplished international eventers. He wears shoulder pads with his vest -- he told me that he'd broken or dislocated both collarbones before and decided it just wasn't worth it to risk that again, thus the shoulder pads.

Works for me.

Look, obviously this is way out of the norm for h/j, but disciplines change and evolve as does safety equipment. I wouldn't be so shocked if vests became much more mainstream for you over the next 10 years. I really doubt it will put a damper on your ability to put in lovely rounds on beautifully trained horses; that's what hunters is about, right?

As for the poster who said learn to ride; I have to assume you are not much of a horseman/woman yourself. If you were, you'd know the profound folly, if not hubris, of such a statement.

[RugBug]

I wouldn't be so shocked if vests became much more mainstream for you over the next 10 years.

I think vests will have to become mainstream in the stadium phase of eventing before you will see them in hunters other than now and then.

[asterix]

I know, I know -- I am one of the few who wear it, even when full jacket attire is required (now only at multi-day events). I did get the hairy eyeball when I wore mine over my jacket at a preliminary event for stadium. Oh well.

But -- now that at one days jackets are always optional, I would say probably 60% if not 70% of riders do wear them for stadium when it's not boiling out and you are scheduled to go direct to XC. It's just easier. So times may be a'changin' there...

Wait, I just looked at the most recent horse trials I attended. I'd say it's more like 85% are wearing their vests in SJ
Pics. (http://www.photoreflect.com/pr3/thumbpage.aspx?e=4272689) Interesting. Anyway, I think change is coming to eventing. Don't know about H/J...

[JER]

Vests can be ordered with shoulder protectors. These can certainly help prevent broken collarbones.

I have them, never notice them. Some poster on the eventing board once described a bunch of newbies, "you know, the kind that wear shoulder pads on their vests..."

That same year I got the chance to talk to William Fox-Pitt, one of the world's best and most accomplished international eventers. He wears shoulder pads with his vest -- he told me that he'd broken or dislocated both collarbones before and decided it just wasn't worth it to risk that again, thus the shoulder pads.


asterix, I know we've discussed this before on the eventing board so you probably already know my take on this.

Shoulder pads are of very limited value in preventing broken or dislocated collarbones.

The majority of clavicle fractures and dislocations occur from axial or torsional loading injuries. IIRC, distal fractures are most common in riding accidents as a result of landing on and rolling on your head, neck and the highest point of the shoulder. The part of the shoulder that you roll on is the acromioclavicular joint (the quiz is tommorrow :lol:) where the clavicle meets the acromion. Here's a good illustration (http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/topic.cfm?topic=a00033).

The body protector itself (minus shoulder pads) already has padding over the point of the shoulder which will provide some (not much) protection from a not-very-hard fall. The shoulder pads made for vests often cover more down the arm, as seen on the Rodney Powells on this page (http://www.frogpool.com/prodcat-784.html). I suspect this is for looks more than function.

My horse spooked sideways into a palm tree once when I was wearing a Tipp vest with shoulder pads and I dislocated my collarbone anyway. The pads, however, did protect me from that awfully sharp tree bark.

The Charles Owen collarbone protection thingy (http://www.charlesowen.co.uk/en/products/bps/list.php?p=23) is another way to go. I haven't see this myself and have no idea what it really is. Compression garment? Hard foam? Soft foam? Anyone? Again, I'm not sure what it would do for a seriously hard fall but you might be happier after a easy/normal fall or if you hit something when you fall.

Keep in mind a collarbone fracture or a separated shoulder won't kill you. Might hurt, might keep you off your horse for a bit (in my case, it didn't) but it's merely a (big) inconvenience. There's a big difference between a clavicle fracture and life-threatening massive crush injuries. Shoulder separations mostly require a skilled person to put back in place. (I have an additional level of licensing that allows me to do this in certain setting. It's kind of fun to do but not so much fun if you're the patient.)

I'm really happy to see riders wearing vests and even shoulder pads. Any move toward a culture of safety is a good one, in my book.

It's almost funny to think we're discussing whether a body protector is ruining the look of a freakin' wool coat. On a horse. In a sport. We're athletes, aren't we?

[Dawnd]

The only thing that I can liken wearing a vest and the average fall off your horse is ice skating and wearing hockey pants.

Fall on your butt wearing hockey pants and you jump back up instantly. Fall on your butt without hockey pants and your ass is sore for a week.

A vest makes most falls less painful.

[Kementari]

Kementari and Lookinsouth: I actually wear a skateboarding helmet when I ski. I never used to (well they did not have them when I started skiing... at age 2), and only started late last season after I saw the video of the American who crashed at Worlds (I think it was worlds... his ski approved helmet snapped right off and he ended up in convulsions at the bottom of the slope... he survived though). Anyway, I went with a skateboarding helmet because they have similar testing standards as bike and riding helmets. Ski helmets, to my knowledge, have no standards at this point.


Ski helmets have several standards: http://www.telemarktips.com/Helmets.html And you can bet that when I went to buy one I made sure it had that happy little ASTM sticker! :winkgrin: I'm not terribly educated about ski equipment in general, but time with horses taught me what to look for when you're buying a helmet. :yes:

Now, back to your regularly scheduled vest discussion. ;)

[TuxWink]

Just thought I'd add a couple of thoughts. I can't speak to the Hunters as that's not my discipline, but agree with the others that the OP should not say anything about the kids and the vests. She can try to make them as subtle-looking as possible, but I wouldn't even mention ditching them. I wouldn't be surprised if other parents start advocating for their kids to wear vests when they see the OP's two kids in the vests. :) I have to confess that I don't wear one for stadium jumping, but always to for cross country.

RE: REQUIRING them for the hunters, I think that the typical types of falls that occur in stadium jumping normally are not of the same nature as cross country. I've fallen a lot in both stadium and cross country, especially during my mares younger, wilder years. ;) Even when I've somersaulted into the middle of an oxer, the rails came down and I just had a couple of bruises. However, I had the same lovely gymnastic display which landed me flat on my back on the center of a solid coop. I was wearing my vest and simply slid down the side and walked away unscathed. If I hadn't been wearing my vest, I believe I could have had some pretty serious injuries.

My most horrible accident happened when I was just trotting. I was x-country schooling, so I luckily had my vest on. I reached down to pat my mare's neck after a fence, and at that same moment she tripped. I tried to sit up, thinking she was going to right herself, but instead, she fell. She rolled over on top of me and sideways. It happened really quickly. As soon as I realized I was still living and could move my fingers and toes :), I sat up. While she was rolling over me I could feel the intense pressure of my helmet pressing into my head. When I took the helmet off, I found the middle strip of plastic down the center (it was an International ATH) was completely cracked and broken from the pressure. I had bruises all around my head from where the helmut pressed into me, as well as misc. bruises all over. The impact knocked a filling out of one of molars, but....that was IT! My core area was completely fine. By the way, I was wearing one of the segmented Tipperary vests.

So, I guess the moral of the story is that the vests definitely do help when encountering solid objects or falling horses. I would never look down on someone wearing one at any time, and, truth be told, wouldn't care if they were required for eventing stadium. If they were required in the stadium phase of competition, I would consider wearing it at home as well, but until then I probably won't. This seems sort of counter-intuitive, since my worst fall was just trotting, but I guess I just like being in denial as I enjoy riding a lot more without thinking about crazy freak accidents. :)

[Biscotti]

The only thing that I can liken wearing a vest and the average fall off your horse is ice skating and wearing hockey pants.

Fall on your butt wearing hockey pants and you jump back up instantly. Fall on your butt without hockey pants and your ass is sore for a week.

A vest makes most falls less painful.

But would it be appropriate to wear hockey pants in figure skating, that's the question being asked. If a kid came in with the potential to be a top figure skater, would you tell her to ditch the pants in favor of the traditional figure skating uniforms?

[Bogie]

I have the solution ;). These girls need to start eventing. Then they'll be praised for their desire to wear vests :lol:

[Kementari]

But would it be appropriate to wear hockey pants in figure skating, that's the question being asked. If a kid came in with the potential to be a top figure skater, would you tell her to ditch the pants in favor of the traditional figure skating uniforms?

Though I neither play hockey nor figure skate, I have a very hard time imagining that it is even remotely possible to do advanced figure skating maneuvers in hockey pants, and there the comparison fails.

[LookinSouth]

Though I neither play hockey nor figure skate, I have a very hard time imagining that it is even remotely possible to do advanced figure skating maneuvers in hockey pants, and there the comparison fails.


I've done both (though certainly not at an expert or advanced level by any stretch of the imagination). I would venture to say any advanced level figure skater worth their salt can perform many movements using hockey skates even, I can't imagine properly fitting hockey pants would stop them either. Actually, most hockey skaters have to be pretty darn nimble on their feet as well. Hockey pants are not restrictive to skating IMO.

Figure skating and Hockey do not involve sitting atop a 1200lb animal. To me there are many more variables involved in regards to safety issues with Riding than figure skating. It seems figure skaters get their worst injuries when another hires a hit man with a crow bar:winkgrin:. As far as hockey players? They wear the pants to protect themselves from the puck, the stick and the contact of the other players, not from falling on their butt(though a bruised tailbone is NO fun). Same reason polo players wear knee guards...it's not so it feels better if they fall off and hit their knee.

[AliBus]

Okay so back in the day when I was a child ( over 25 yrs ago) no one had these kind of worries. I mean there is a chance of accidents in all sports. There is a chance of falaties also .
So next it will be wearing wrist guards. Leg braces. Come on . stick with the tradition and learn to ride properly . ;)

Wearing protective gear has nothing to do with "riding properly." Plenty of great riders get tossed on occasion. In fact, those who ride more probably get tossed more just because they have more saddle time or ride riskier horses.

[LSM1212]

I have the solution ;). These girls need to start eventing. Then they'll be praised for their desire to wear vests :lol:

This made me laugh... it's what I've been thinking all along while reading this thread. :D And I do both also (Hunters and Eventing). But lately, I've actually been steering more towards Eventing. Because of discussions like this.

I've always been the one who was "outside of the box" with Hunters. So I guess I never quite fit in. But the Eventing world has received me with open arms. Lots of support and encouragement. And I don't have to worry as much about "fashion" and that "perfect look".

And now that I've been mainly training in Eventing... my horse is better than he ever was. But I'll still do both though I may swap over to Jumpers. Only problem is... my horse isn't one of the "quick" ones so would probably lose out on the jump offs. :) He screams "Hunter" but I have to say, he's much happier w/ Eventing... except for that darn Dressage. But we are working on it.

JMO.