Two young mares off track just not right

[sweetiebob]

We recently took in two mares at our place as future broodmares for a warmblood stallion.
I believe they came right off the track (Suffolk) and delivered to our farm. I think that they were in claiming races, didn't really cost that much. I don't have any experience with TB's, but these girls were not hyper or anything like that. They did come to us injured, we were not
told what kind of injuries, just didn't want to move, very very sore. We were not that concerned as they are not to be ridden, just allowed to be horses, fatten up, relax. Breeding for them next year. The thing I'm concerned about is that these two little mares just don't seem right. They have never had huge appetites, they seem so lonely and out of sorts. Kind of "lost". They have been wormed at least 2X in the 4-5 months they have been with us. Have good quality grain and hay, turned out together or with older, kind mares that are not bossy. They don't have that little spark in their eye. They seemed burnt out. Are there any drugs given to horses (especially mares) in training that I should be aware of? Please advise. PM me and I can give the names of the mares if someone is familiar with horses that have been at Suffolk the past 6 months. Would love to know a bit about them. They are so sweet.

[Simkie]

Considering the studies have demonstrated that 95% + of horses on the track have ulcers, your girls probably have ulcers and would benefit from Gastrogard or ranitadine.

Pain will also cause that "lost" look. It may not be a bad idea to do a lameness exam, even though they're just brood mares.

[Iron Horse Farm]

Ulcers. Ulcers. Ulcers.

[Arcadien]

I probably shouldn't ask this, but... why did you choose these particular two mares to add to your breeding program? I'm sorry to be rude enough to ask, but in this environment, I think it is important, to be sure you are not proposing adding to the legions of potentially unwanted horses... hoping they have some physcial, mental, or pedigree attribute that makes their bloodlines speical to you... otherwise, if you don't want them for riding or other purposes, why not take the hundreds needed to get them fit for breeding, and use it to mercifully put them down.... you know...?

(Sorry guys, just a bit extra depressed after looking over the hundreds of ads for nice horses being given away....)

Arcadien

[jennywho]

Put me on the ulcer bandwagon as well. If you don't want to spend all the money on gastroguard (and I don't blame you if you don't) you might just try a supplement such a U7 (my favorite). There are a lot of them out there and several threads in the horse care section as well. The supplements won't work as quickly and may or may not help depending on the severity of the ulcers, but I have had good luck getting them under control going that route.

Another thing to consider is that they may have been running on steriods - not sure what Suffolk's policy is or if it was enacted before they stopped running. In my experience it can take up to six months before the after effects of steriod withdrawal finally wear off and the symptoms vary greatly from horse to horse.

Good luck and thanks for providing a home and a new career for the two girls.

[Showponymom Aefvue Mid Atlantic Division]

I probably shouldn't ask this, but... why did you choose these particular two mares to add to your breeding program? I'm sorry to be rude enough to ask, but in this environment, I think it is important, to be sure you are not proposing adding to the legions of potentially unwanted horses... hoping they have some physcial, mental, or pedigree attribute that makes their bloodlines speical to you... otherwise, if you don't want them for riding or other purposes, why not take the hundreds needed to get them fit for breeding, and use it to mercifully put them down.... you know...?

(Sorry guys, just a bit extra depressed after looking over the hundreds of ads for nice horses being given away....)

Arcadien

You are right, that is rude. What is wrong with just having a mare to bred and give them a happy home. If she didn't take them, what do you think would happen to them. Suffolk does not allow them to go to the auctions, so she gave them a home. I have mares that we don't ride and sometimes don't bred and they have a great home. Or should I put them down too. Geezz. I love how people are anti breeding, if everyone did that, eventually we would have no horses.

Getting off my soap box now.

[Showponymom Aefvue Mid Atlantic Division]

I agree with the ulcers. Neighlox is another supplement you can give to them. They probably need more time to destress from the track lifestyle. I would go with a total physical with your vet for them.

Good luck

[sweetiebob]

Thanks to all of you for responding. I'm not upset about the questions concerning the use of these two mare. The reason my partner chose these mares is simple. Warmblood mare owners want the perfect home for their horses, (whatever that may be for each seller).
I understand. I would feel the same about my own TB mare. The perfect home for these TB mares might have been anywhere. With my meager knowledge, I thought the breeding of these mares was good. One is 20% Secretariat the other 20% Mr. Prospector. Flame me if you must.

[DickHertz]

These mares could also be coming off of epogen.

[Equibrit]

The question was related to the quality of potential offspring and their chances of finding competent homes.

[sweetiebob]

Thanks DickHertz... I Googled epogen, of course it's a drug for humans but what is it use on horses and side effects?

[Laurierace]

Its use in horses is a despicable one. It is used to increase the amounts of red blood cells in the blood therefore increasing the oxygen carrying ability of the blood. Eventually the blood turns to sludge and the horses have a tendency to drop dead out of the blue from a "heart attack" There really is no treatment for horses that were given epogen, just supportive therapy as needed like IV fluids and such.
I am going to jump on the ulcers and/or steroid letdown bandwagon. If these were my horses I would first pull blood to see of they are in the normal levels or if they are fighting off an infection of some kind and then I would do a course of double dose liquid panacur for 5 days. I like that better than the powerpack in cases like this as the liquid does have some anti ulcer properties to it. Then look into a course of gastroguard afterwards if they don't perk up in a week or two.

[Triplicate]

You didn't say very much about how the mares are living. Do they have access to a nicely bedded stall at night so they can lie down if they are body sore or just tired from their job change ?

This is also important when you get dead fit horses off the track and they don't have any extra fat to keep them warm - you cannot just kick them out and expect them to thrive.

Did you pull their shoes ? If so, did you paint their feet to help them get over the initial soreness.

Did you jog them on the blacktop with your vet watching and check their soundness ?

Has he palpated them to check on their soundness for breeding ?

He should be able to advise you as to suppliments and ulser medication, better than us on a bulletin board.

Are these big, strong, nice mares or just someone's cast offs ? Not crooked legged worn out mares ?
Just because they are related to someone famous generations back doesn't mean they will produce great babies for you. Breeding thoroughbred mares to warmbloods isn't easy - you are adding God only knows what to a completely different Gene pool. Type to type is the best way to go,

Cheap horses aren't always cheap.
It usually six months to a year to get a fit horse let down and back to normal.

Lastly, contact the previous owner or trainer and get information, information, information. This should have been done before you ever got them.

I hope you are able to give them a nice home and perhaps get nice babies.

[AppJumpr08]

It can really take a long time for some of the OTTBs to readjust to farm life. Both physically and mentally. I would echo the others with "ulcers" and encourage you to provide free choice hay, even if they aren't cleaning it up. Track horses aren't used to free choice hay, and it can take some longer then others to get used to chowing it down. I would assume you've had their teeth checked already?
With the OTTBs who have really been pumped full of all sorts of crap at the track, there can be a Loooooonnnng let down period. I have had several who looked "dead" in their eyes for about 6 months, and suddenly they just perk up and become bright little creatures again.
I'm also PMing you as I'm curious who you ended up with :)

Good luck!

[Arcadien]

Thanks to all of you for responding. I'm not upset about the questions concerning the use of these two mare. The reason my partner chose these mares is simple. Warmblood mare owners want the perfect home for their horses, (whatever that may be for each seller).
I understand. I would feel the same about my own TB mare. The perfect home for these TB mares might have been anywhere. With my meager knowledge, I thought the breeding of these mares was good. One is 20% Secretariat the other 20% Mr. Prospector. Flame me if you must.

Thanks for understanding, SB. I'm not the sort that flames anyone, I just think it's ever more important these days that we put a lot of thought into breeding anything. It sounds like you are one of the responsible ones. :)

But lets all do commit to questioning breeding plans of others - especially if we don't know the person, please! Maybe if many of us are brave enough to ask and keep asking, we'll make a few of the careless ones stop and think before putting another unwanted foal on the planet... worth it, even if we ruffle a few feathers here and there?

FWIW I don't think there's any danger of a horse shortage in the next decade or so...

Respectfully,
Arcadien

[ArtilleryHill]

As someone who is living through a traumatically bad downturn in the Kentucky bloodstock market, I have to sympathize with Arcadien's mood here. I know of people here, and earlier this year at the Ocala Breeders' Sales, who literally are having trouble giving horses away. I know of people who have finally just turned them over to the meat men, sometimes for free and sometimes for a little cash, just to get out from under the cost. Even in the heart of the commercial breeding industry in Kentucky, where commercial breeders ostensibly are breeding some of the world's best pedigrees, there have been warnings about overproduction for quite some time. Too many breeders--and I am emphatically NOT applying this to any poster on this board--have bred with the dream of a big sale and ended up instead with a horse they can't keep and can't sell, to the horse's ultimate detriment. For those of you who have not sat through an auction and seen weanlings--weanlings, with heaven only knows what potential in them--get no bid, and then get shuttled off to a kill buyer, well, let me just say that it is hard to watch. Those who have seen it do tend to get a different perspective on things. I can tell you that if no one bred for several years, we'd still have plenty of horses to go around for quite some time.

To those who breed responsibly and thoughtfully, BRAVO. The world needs more like you. Heaven knows the horses do.

[vineyridge]

As someone who is living through a traumatically bad downturn in the Kentucky bloodstock market, I have to sympathize with Arcadien's mood here. I know of people here, and earlier this year at the Ocala Breeders' Sales, who literally are having trouble giving horses away. I know of people who have finally just turned them over to the meat men, sometimes for free and sometimes for a little cash, just to get out from under the cost. Even in the heart of the commercial breeding industry in Kentucky, where commercial breeders ostensibly are breeding some of the world's best pedigrees, there have been warnings about overproduction for quite some time. Too many breeders--and I am emphatically NOT applying this to any poster on this board--have bred with the dream of a big sale and ended up instead with a horse they can't keep and can't sell, to the horse's ultimate detriment. For those of you who have not sat through an auction and seen weanlings--weanlings, with heven only knows what potential in them--get no bid, and then get shuttled off to a kill buyer, well, let me just say that it is hard to watch. Those who have seen it do tend to get a different perspective on things. I can tell you that if no one bred for several years, we'd still have plenty of horses to go around for quite some time.

To those who breed responsibly and thoughtfully, BRAVO. The world needs more like you. Heaven knows the horses do.

This post made me want to cry. :cry:

[Rienzi]

My OTTB had such a sad look in his eyes for the first few months. He hadn't been raced for several months prior to that but he had been living at the track with the same owners for the past 2-3 years. They really liked him but didn't have time/space for him anymore. He had been through several owners before them and now he was in a different place again with different people and a different routine and I think he felt lost and lonely. He wouldn't even 'rumble' (you know, that low nicker) for his grain. (Though he ate fine.) I think it took him a while to realize what his place was in this new environment, and that I was going to stay around, that he had his own person again.

[cloudyandcallie]

As someone who is living through a traumatically bad downturn in the Kentucky bloodstock market, I have to sympathize with Arcadien's mood here. I know of people here, and earlier this year at the Ocala Breeders' Sales, who literally are having trouble giving horses away. I know of people who have finally just turned them over to the meat men, sometimes for free and sometimes for a little cash, just to get out from under the cost. Even in the heart of the commercial breeding industry in Kentucky, where commercial breeders ostensibly are breeding some of the world's best pedigrees, there have been warnings about overproduction for quite some time. Too many breeders--and I am emphatically NOT applying this to any poster on this board--have bred with the dream of a big sale and ended up instead with a horse they can't keep and can't sell, to the horse's ultimate detriment. For those of you who have not sat through an auction and seen weanlings--weanlings, with heven only knows what potential in them--get no bid, and then get shuttled off to a kill buyer, well, let me just say that it is hard to watch. Those who have seen it do tend to get a different perspective on things. I can tell you that if no one bred for several years, we'd still have plenty of horses to go around for quite some time.

To those who breed responsibly and thoughtfully, BRAVO. The world needs more like you. Heaven knows the horses do.

Bravo to you and to Arcadien.

Our horse dentist was here yesterday.

He gets ottbs from KY and retrains and sells in north Georgia.

He said that too many horses are being offered for free in KY now and not many people are taking them. (including the dentist)

[Blinkers On]

Along with the ulcers, possible EPO, one of the first things I'd do is pull blood.
Ranitadine, cimetadine (relatively in expensive) If they have decent condition score, easy help. EPO no beuno. But pulling blood might help might help figure out what you are dealing with. A great place to start.

[KatherineC]

If you do decide to treat for ulcers I found a place for cheap omeprazole (active ingredient in Gastrogard). Web site is called www.ponymeds.com (or something close to that. I was a bit suspicious at first, but gave it a try and have been very happy.

Good luck with your horses.

[Iron Horse Farm]

... otherwise, if you don't want them for riding or other purposes, why not take the hundreds needed to get them fit for breeding, and use it to mercifully put them down.... you know...?

(Sorry guys, just a bit extra depressed after looking over the hundreds of ads for nice horses being given away....)

Arcadien

Are you F-ing kidding? :eek::eek:Put them down? Because they MIGHT
have ulcers but have no actual diagnosis whatsoever? OMG I hope I never come back to this planet as a horse in your barn! :confused::mad::mad:

I am NOT advocating getting any old off the track horse and breeding it just for breeding, but for God's sake, let them have some letdown before you call it quits.

Just because there are horses being given away for free means we shouldn't put "hundreds" of dollars into ones that are already safe? :no:
This week I put $2000 into a horse that isn't papered and isn't being bred. Was that wrong too? Should I just have put her down and "saved" another one?

[danceronice]

I don't think Arcadien meant "Just put them down tomorrow." But that if there is something wrong perhaps that would be the sensible thing to do rather than spend thousands on mid-range mares that don't sound like they have particularly outstanding pedigrees or race records. Given the current market, breeding isn't always a good idea and some people can't afford to keep nonproducers around.

If someone is in business breeding, then no, it wouldn't make sense to put money into a horse who was non-papered and not being used for breeding unless there was another way it was earning its keep. If you can afford to do it out of kindness, that's one thing, but it's not something everyone can or should do.

To the OP, I would add to what everyone else has said, maybe they're a little confused and depressed? If they've known nothing but racing, they've just had their lives completely turned upside down. Obviously have the vet check them, but unless they start showing obvious symptoms, maybe just give them more time to relax and get used to their new normal.

[Arcadien]

Are you F-ing kidding? :eek::eek:Put them down? Because they MIGHT
have ulcers but have no actual diagnosis whatsoever? OMG I hope I never come back to this planet as a horse in your barn! :confused::mad::mad:


I am NOT advocating getting any old off the track horse and breeding it just for breeding, but for God's sake, let them have some letdown before you call it quits.


Ironhorse farm, I'm not saying put them down because they have ulcers or whatever. I'm all for her taking the best care she can of these two lovely mares. I'm a TB lover to my bones and have spend thousands in the past five years rescuing, rehabbing, and rehoming two that I came upon with Henneke body scores of 1-2. If a horse has a chance, I'm one of the ones that will pitch in all I have to help it take advantage of that chance.

I'm just saying, don't breed them if you don't have plans or reasonably based hopes for sale for the resultant foals if you do decide to breed. I wrote what I did as I didn't know this poster well, and all I saw was that she had come upon two TB mares of unknown pedigree/quality, and had asked about fitting them up for breeding to a warmblood. Having seen a few of her other posts, I now feel she is of a responsible mindset, and that was all I wanted to know.

But I understand an emotional response, as it is a very serious thought - so many horses needing homes, and only to get worse, it's a wonder all horselovers can keep our emotions in check at all ;)

Let me try to explain further - if you'll let me explain my reasons I greatly appreciate your attention ;)

I'm not saying put down these horses because they aren't worth saving. I'm greatful to anyone who takes the time, money & emotional resources to give any horse a nice home. This is true at any time, but especially now! So many need homes, at the bare minimum. Jobs would be even better, but just homes - with a bit of space to move safely, shelter from the elements, hay & water, and maybe a bit of grain, enough to keep their weight - these thing are very precious to horses now in these tough times, and anyone willing to offer these things to any horses, for any amount of time is a wonderful, wonderful someone in my book.

I only wrote what I did, because these kinds of bare necessity homes are becoming harder and harder to come by for the horses alive right now. Give one can provide such a home to a mare, then breeding this mare, means not only a home is needed for the mare, but a home for the foal to come, after it is weaned. Can the breeder provide? Or are they hoping to sell? Are they planning to keep the foal for themselves, or after the sale, are they hoping the foal meets someone(s) who can provide such a home for life? Or a merciful person ready to pay for a humane end? I hope we all are ready to face, and make, these choices, if we dare to breed in these times.

I send immense kudos to the person who rescued these two Suffolk mares, and wish I could hug her in person for providing them homes. I only wrote what I did because I wanted to be sure they were aware, after hopefully fitting up and breeding these mares, that those foals too would need homes with shelter, hay, water, hopefully a bit of grain... hoped they had plans to provide those for the foals too, or reasons to believe the foals would be of such quality that someone else would want to provide such a home.

Because, without such a home, in my opinion, the option being left to starve slowly over weeks, months....or a two day ride on a crowded trailer to a long chute with a barely trained person with a knife or gun ends their horror, horses are better off falling to sleep quickly from a humanely placed needle. And yes, this still takes immense compassion and resources (about $500 per, in my area, including disposal) and isn't the worst fate a horse, or anyone else for that matter, can meet. I would like to hug the people who provide that option for horses without any better ones, too.

Respectfully,
Arcadien

[sporthorsefilly]

Arcadien is quite right. I get the Thoroughbred times, and if you read what prices the market for TBs is going through, it is frightful. We all need to think about what we produce. Not just WB breeders, but everyone.

That said, I would second ulcers. I've had luck with SUCCEED, but I think it is best to have a vet scope these horses to see if they have ulcers.

It can take months, even for a horse coming from a very good owner/trainer, for the horse to settle. I have a lovely mare, that came to me in August from a trusted friend, who is her breeder/owner/trainer. She was it top quality condition on arrival, and is doing excellently. She isn't a big hay eater, but has filled out nicely. She has relaxed and is enjoing grass and companionship.

Good luck with your two girls, it is great that you could give them a home and a future.

[Thomas_1]

Arcadien,

I congratulate you on an extremely thoughtful, intelligent and realistic posting.

The OP isn't going to like it though! From the duplicate thread which I was posting on, she's only wanting sugar coating advice that agrees with her thinking.

I was in ignorance that the same sort of controversy was going on over in the Racing forum.

Got to admit to not seeing the relevance to racing at all. I'd have personally thought this was either a horse care or horse breeding issue.

[LoveMyArabians]

For ulcers...

Here in the bowels of New York State we use Ranitidine tablets, 300 mg. and give 10 tabs 2 x per day, broke in half in their feed, horse eats them no problem. It works GREAT and cost is around $30.00.

I would also recommend maybe a Powerpak worming regime for the 2 mares for a week if vet thinks it's ok.

Both are very small investments to give the mares a chance... it is unbelievable what ulcers and worms will do to a horse.

Just my 2¢...
Cindy

[RiddleMeThis]

Arcadien,

I congratulate you on an extremely thoughtful, intelligent and realistic posting.

The OP isn't going to like it though! From the duplicate thread which I was posting on, she's only wanting sugar coating advice that agrees with her thinking.

I was in ignorance that the same sort of controversy was going on over in the Racing forum.

Got to admit to not seeing the relevance to racing at all. I'd have personally thought this was either a horse care or horse breeding issue.You just come here to bitch some more because the other thread was closed? Or did you have something meaningful to say?

BTW:I also ditto ulcers.

[Blinkers On]

WOW!!!
I fully agree with what Arcadien has to say. It is wonderful to save horses. I so wish I lived in a place where land was readily available and I had unlimited resources. I'd save them all. Or try.
Are these mares broodmares? In this economy, I'd say no. Breeders are taking a beating. The industry is taking a beating. That's just plain fact. And though I don't know the OP or the situation, but there will be 4 mouths to feed and stud fee, etc etc.
I don't know why I thought that horse racing was exempt from the economic troubles. Dense of me really. But it effects every aspect from feed suppliers, to stall muckers. It's a sad state of affairs.
OP, ulcers are probable. But do have a vet out and do pull a blood. BOTH are very good things to do!

[NancyM]

If these mares have been given any corticosteroid treatments (and if they have been used hard "ground out" as cheap claimers, this is a distinct possibility), consider treating with ACTH to restart the adrenal glands, as well as investigating the worming options, and ulcers. It takes a while for adrenal glands to restart on their own, without the stimulus.

Whether or not they are broodmare prospects is hard to tell on the internet. If you believe they are, and the process will be both economic for you and advantageous for the horses and the foals they produce, it is entirely your business to make this decision, not mine. When they have regained their full health and soundness, try them out some before you make your decision.

[Blinkers On]

Of course Nancy lives in a world where Morning Bob is the broodmare sire of choice and the Snow's are breeding mares like Follow That Dream (much to Tammy's dismay), and Mirth keeps cranking them out whether they can run or not. Katahoula County is a top stallion oooh and On Target was a gem. And Uncle Ed is a god. One can breed crap to crap as slots are saving the racing industry. Yay!!!
The rest of the world, the US, isn't Hastings Park. And IS suffering

[Secretariat2]

I have 3 OTTB mares and have had lovely foals from them that have sold for "fairly" good prices. Not by WB stallions either. The trick is to produce horses with good minds and conformation and give them the proper nutrition and TRAINING for their future jobs. In a better economy I was able to sell two TB crosses into good homes as yearlings, however a third foal (just as nice as the first two) didn't sell until he was under saddle as a 3 year old and he sold for $5000. I was told by the new owners that he was a bargain and he definitely was. I don't make much of a profit but I know I produced a horse with the conformation, temperament and skills needed to give him a fighting chance at a decent life and I think that is the key to breeding responsibly.

Back to the original question from the OP. I didn't breed any of my mares until they were off the track for at least 2 years. Then I had a good idea of their temperament and talents. It is important to choose the right mare and then give them a chance to adjust to their new lifestyle and let them show you what they can do. I also made sure they were in very good health. I didn't have to deal with ulcers thankfully, but it took a good six months to a year before they grew in some good hoof and gained condition. Now, I'd describe all 3 as easy keepers :) Then you can make the right decision on breeding and select the right stallion.

[MLP]

This post made me want to cry. :cry:

That post DID make me cry. I can't even imagine sitting through that, I would have a TON of weanlings that's for sure....

[sniplover]

FWIW, we have had very good success treating ulcers with generic liquid Maalox (rec'd by our vet).. even at 30cc 2x daily, still only costs a few $ a month.

You'd be amazed at what TBs are going for down here in Ocala - http://ocala4sale.com/animals/horse-breeds-3.php is one of the best local resources; 6 free geldings, 5 free "brood"mares (another for free lease.. "brood" because they have a uterus and debatable reproductive worth), a LOT under $500 and even more at $1k or just over it... we're drowning in cheap TBs and I worry for them..

[Secretariat2]

we're drowning in cheap TBs and I worry for them..

Maybe the economy will change the way the racing breeders think. Surely, they won't just keep over producing and having to throw away so many foals? I mean, if nobody even wants to give weanlings a chance, how will anyone ever know if the next Secretariat ended up on a plate?

[sniplover]

I'd imagine that Ocala is also producing decent bloodlines and race horses, but the average price on the listed '08 weanlings (on the link I provided) was $4766, prices ranging from $900 - $8500.. I wonder how that compares to previous years.

I know at least one person convinced she's going to make it big by breeding race horses, and she's totally clueless... spent $5k on a stud fee (+ vet fees/regumate/etc + foaling/care in the spring b/c she's not set up to do it) on a mare she bought for $1k, and I doubt she'll be able to recoup those costs in this economy. Yet she refuses to quit.

[Amoroso]

They did come to us injured, we were not
told what kind of injuries, just didn't want to move, very very sore.

If these were my mares, I'd start with determining what is causing them to be sore. You haven't described how they are sore so I'm unsure if it is just body sore, or if they are lame as well. Regardless, I'd have a vet do a work up on each mare to determine what the physical issues are now. I'd be fairly miserable if I was sore everyday too! Additionally, now would be a good time to have the vet determine if they are breeding sound (you can do two things with one visit from the vet).

There have been a lot of hard questions posted in regards to the breeding suitability of your mares. I think all the questions deserve hard thought as they are for the most part on point. Breeding programs should be the careful consideration of conformation, bloodlines, temperament etc... not the product of cheap "claiming" race TB mares. There are oodles of proven warmblood or other suitable mares that can be purchased at reasonable prices. You could consider older mares that generally come with lesser price tags or a free lease....the possibilities are endless if the effort to find them is put forth.

[findeight]

How long have you had them at home?

Obviously, a good vet check including blood is in order...and God knows what crap is still pumping around their systems.

Somehow many think they are all nuts right off the track when the opposite is just as common, if not more so. At the track they are in a little "house" 22 to 23 hours a day with little or nothing to look at or do. Every morning at the same time somebody gets them out and excercises them. Some afternoons they are taken out to go run around. Always handled the same way by the same people or those trained to do it the same way. Routine, routine, routine. Horses like routine.

So, you put them in a field left to their own devices and they are simply confused and maybe a little scared. There is no routine. There are many things to look at and they even can make decisions about where to stand, when to drink and where and when to graze. Decisions they have forgotten how to make, if they ever did get to make them.

Bet you have a combination of confusion and a little too drastic a change for them to assimilate quickly and the typical withdrawal issues from the pharmaceutical "help". Body sore is pretty common and goes away, you may have recurring trouble with abcesses if they are like the last half dozen or so I have been around as varies nasties work their way out of the body.

Maybe you can give these girls some routine grooming and hand walk every morning to make them feel a little more comfortable until they adapt. Alot of them do like a cozy "house" after spending so much time in them...seems to make them feel more secure. maybe you can stall them at night for at least a few months until they work this all out.

Takes time, they will adapt and get healthy for you. But I might plan on waiting until later in the season to breed

[SleepyFox]

Wow, this is a tough crowd. I'll probably regret this, but I'll wade in anyway. I do think it's rude to lambaste someone for mentioning they have broodmare propsects. Which prompts me to make a few points...

First, the idea that "cheap claimers" are unworthy of being bred is an Internet falllacy. We know nothing about these mares' pedigrees, physical attributes or potential back class. And, more importantly, the OP stated she was breeding for sporthorses, so their race records are a moot point, I would think.

Second, the TB market is experiencing a correction right now. Although - again - the OP is not breeding for the TB market, so I'm not sure what that has to do with her plans. But, regardless, there is still a strong market for good horses. I don't know what sale Artillery Hill was referencing in regards to weanlings getting no bid (we're too early into KEE Nov for it to be that sale this year), but yeah - it happens at sales where there is a $1k upset bid. Some weanlings just aren't worth $1k. I am not familiar with the unsold weanlings getting hauled off to the "kill buyer" though. The usual turn of events is the horse is either sold privately or kept for a later sale. But, to make it sound like there are tons of unsold weanlings being carted off before they can fulfill their potenial is ridiculous and just untrue.

Finally, I agree w/ what everyone else says about ulcers.

To the OP: best of luck with the mares whatever you decide to do.

[DickHertz]

First, the idea that "cheap claimers" are unworthy of being bred is an Internet falllacy. We know nothing about these mares' pedigrees, physical attributes or potential back class. And, more importantly, the OP stated she was breeding for sporthorses, so their race records are a moot point, I would think.



Not that this is the norm, but Songandaprayer's dam is Alizea who made about $20,000 running at Penn National in the early 90's. On the flip side, I know someone in western PA who stood a Storm Cat mare who was a conformational nightmare and she never produced one winner.

I hate how commercial breeders tend to look at bloodlines first and conformation second. I'll take a mare who is correct and made a few bucks on the track in cheap races and breed her before paying for a mare with good bloodlines who can't walk a straight line because of conformation problems. There are too many crooked mares being bred. Someone who breeds a crooked & cheap horse should be ridiculed, but I don't knock someone for trying to breed a cheap mare who has good conformation.

[ArtilleryHill]

in regards to weanlings getting no bid (we're too early into KEE Nov for it to be that sale this year)

Actually, a weanling filly went through Wednesday--day three--at KeeNov and got no bid. I wrote it down in my catalog, which, alas, is now in my husband's car at the airport. She must have sold privately, as that does not show up on the results sheet, so here's hoping she found a good home. I can't recall seeing a no bid that early in a Keeneland sale, with the exception of the now defunct October yearling sale.

[Blinkers On]

Maybe the new government will fix all that is wrong in the world today.
Chances are that the weanie will be pinhooked or be on a plane to Dubai.

[JGHIRETIRE]

If those 2 mares have shoes on -change them or leave the barefoot if they can handle it. Track shoers are in such a hurry they often leave hot nails behind. It's no wonder the poor horses can't run.
I've had to treat my guy for about a month now for ulcers. There is something called Neigh Lox that you can put in their feed.
Body work and rest help quite a bit. My guy came off the track the same way. Three months later he's beginning to look pretty fine and has quite the personality!!

[LaurieB]

As someone who is living through a traumatically bad downturn in the Kentucky bloodstock market, I have to sympathize with Arcadien's mood here...... For those of you who have not sat through an auction and seen weanlings--weanlings, with heaven only knows what potential in them--get no bid, and then get shuttled off to a kill buyer, well, let me just say that it is hard to watch. Those who have seen it do tend to get a different perspective on things.


While I applaud your desire to do good, I have to point out that your post doesn't refer to any part of the Kentucky TB industry I'm familiar with. The "no bids" come about because the upset price at auctions here is $1,000--a minimum too high to be of interest to kill buyers. There are no kill buyers on the grounds; they're not wanted and they're not allowed.

As far as I know, there have been 2 no bid weanlings thusfar in the KeeNov sale. One of those sold as soon as it left the ring. If the intention of your post was to make people cry, apparently it succeeded. If you meant to convey factual information, not so much.

[SEPowell]

Added to all the other good suggestions for managing these mares, I can suggest feeding them something like Senior Vintage (Blue Seal). Feeds like that are high in protein, easily digestible, tasty, and full of vits and minerals.

There are many trainers who can end a horse's racing career without the horse having to crash, but most that you pick up at the auctions or from lower level tracks crash so your mares aren't going through something unusual, unfortunately. Good luck with them, I'm glad they're getting some tlc.

[ArtilleryHill]

I was not referring to kill buyers specifically at the KeeNov auction, only noting that that sale has had a "traumatically bad downturn," and then subsequently correcting the poster who said it was "too early" in the Keeneland sale to have no-bids. I thought that was rather obvious in my post, or at least in its original version without your editing. As you note, there have been two no-bid weanlings so far at KeeNov, pointing up the fact that it is no longer "too early" for horses not to get bids at that auction.

And while kill buyers are not welcome at Keeneland, they certainly do operate legally in many areas including Kentucky, and desperate owners certainly do avail themselves of that option after auction in the Bluegrass state and elsewhere, including Ocala, Texas, and other places. The fact that kill buyers aren't welcome on a particular sale ground does not mean unsold horses can't be sent on to slaughter once they leave the auction grounds, however comforting a thought that might be to imagine; Keeneland is powerful, but not THAT powerful! Other unsold horses are, on occasion, even abandoned at sale grounds--though this is, thankfully, a rare occurence and has not, as far as I am aware, happened at Keeneland November.

My intention was not to make anyone cry, but simply to express a certain sympathy with Arcadien in wishing that there were not so many foals on the ground at the moment at a time when there are so pitifully few buyers.

As for "desire to do good," I'm not sure what you mean, with reference to my post. I merely offered the observation that Arcadien's mood of caution is understandable to me in the current climate. Like Arcadien, I'm pretty depressed about the flood of "free horse" offers from people who by their own admission are desperate to get out from under the costs of animals they bred before the general market downturn. I don't know whether you attended the OBS mixed sale, but that's a pretty good example of how painful the downturn has been and how sad the result is for both breeders and horses. It is likley not to be only example in coming months.

[ArtilleryHill]

The sales process was never meant to rescue breeders from their bad decisions and we're finding that out now in a big way.


LaurieB, just stumbled across this from you on a similar thread. This is almost exactly what I am talking about and what I believe Arcadien also is thinking: we hope people will hesitate and be cautious before making hasty or, in your words, "bad" mating decisions. Again, not saying anyone in particular on this board is doing that, but to those who are thoughtful and careful--as per my original post on this thread--bravo, the world needs more like you.

[ShowMeTheGlory]

I agree with do some bloodwork.
THE best treatment for ulcers is turnout,turnout, turnout. I have seen it firsthand with my OTTB. Don't waste your money on meds and supplements ,if you're going to give them downtime anyway. Lots of hay and grass is the best thing!!

[spanishwells]

I am pleased to see the thorough discussion and the great responses to the questions about the two TB mares that recently left the track. Although the problems associated with the described symptoms can be quite complicated and severe the solution may be very simple and inexpensive. I am a company sales rep as well as a breeder and owner of TB's so I will not discuss brand or company names here. If you would like additional info then please contact me privately.

With the banning or steroids and many race day medications in TB racing many of the horses coming down from the medications seem to be falling apart to a certain extent. I do not condone the heavy use of meds in any kind of horse but the health of the horse comes first. My compnay is finishing up a 12 month pilot program for a bovine colostrum product that is natural, safe, and shows fantastic results. Horses can even race on the product because it's all natural and is rapidly replacing the spark that steroids provided before being banned. Cost runs about $2 a day vs. Gastrogard at $30+ per day and we see no difference in the results.

This link will guide you to hundreds of studies and the benefits of colostrum in horses, and aminals of all kinds. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed Take a peek and I think you will be surprised!

Please contact me privately if you would like information for our product or a link to our website.

[Blinkers On]

I'd like to buy into it, Spanish, but I am quite familiar with HEAVY steroid users who's horses act as sharp as ever and win and carry rather impressive weight even without the use of steroids and without a "grace" period.
The steroid thing is way overblown. I know, not a popular opinion. Though the colostrum thing IS interesting!

[Romany]

I am pleased to see the thorough discussion and the great responses to the questions about the two TB mares that recently left the track. Although the problems associated with the described symptoms can be quite complicated and severe the solution may be very simple and inexpensive. I am a company sales rep as well as a breeder and owner of TB's so I will not discuss brand or company names here. If you would like additional info then please contact me privately.

With the banning or steroids and many race day medications in TB racing many of the horses coming down from the medications seem to be falling apart to a certain extent. I do not condone the heavy use of meds in any kind of horse but the health of the horse comes first. My compnay is finishing up a 12 month pilot program for a bovine colostrum product that is natural, safe, and shows fantastic results. Horses can even race on the product because it's all natural and is rapidly replacing the spark that steroids provided before being banned. Cost runs about $2 a day vs. Gastrogard at $30+ per day and we see no difference in the results.

This link will guide you to hundreds of studies and the benefits of colostrum in horses, and aminals of all kinds. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed Take a peek and I think you will be surprised!

Please contact me privately if you would like information for our product or a link to our website.


Good grief! Just how many colostrum sales folk ARE on this board, anyway? At least, spanishwells, you have the good grace to declare yourself, unlike "aburke" of Re-borne, who has been, shall we say, a little less upfront about his/her motives for promoting his/her product:

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/search.php?searchid=3773789

[DickHertz]

Cost runs about $2 a day vs. Gastrogard at $30+ per day and we see no difference in the results.



There is generic gastroguard out there for $15 a day that works just as well.

[imissvixen]

If you are still reading this thread, I wanted to tell you that it took probably 9 months for my OTTB mare from Finger Lakes to become the horse she eventually was. My impression was that it was alot of body soreness and working out all the stuff in her system. Her body changed quite a bit. When she first arrived she was very full and pumped looking. But over time she got more riding horse looking. She also had some lameness issues that you would never expect in a 4 year old horse. My farrier described her as a horse that was worked hard and put away wet if you remember that old expression.

She did come around and was very pleasant, had a bright eye, etc. But it did take time.

[NancyM]

Of course Nancy lives in a world where Morning Bob is the broodmare sire of choice and the Snow's are breeding mares like Follow That Dream (much to Tammy's dismay), and Mirth keeps cranking them out whether they can run or not. Katahoula County is a top stallion oooh and On Target was a gem. And Uncle Ed is a god. One can breed crap to crap as slots are saving the racing industry. Yay!!!
The rest of the world, the US, isn't Hastings Park. And IS suffering


Hmmm Blinkie, your post has me perplexed... as to it's relevance to the OP's question. I think most of us here participate at the race meet/s held closest to where they live, and have little to do with the track management decisions and propaganda. Are these mares belonging to the OP sired by Morning Bob? I must have missed that link. Did Morning Bob ever make the leading broodmare sire list in this province? I hadn't noticed that either. I agree entirely that he wouldn't be my first choice as such, saw too many of them in training to ever want to own one or breed one myself. I also do not understand the relevance of the Snow's breeding program to this thread, or Tammy's input into it, such as it is. Are these mares belonging to the OP bred by Snows? I guess I didn't see that if I missed the link to their pedigrees. I'm afraid I do not know who you mean by "Mirth"? Katahoula County has given us some good local runners for sure. Is he international class?? Well, not yet. And you liked On Target????? Man, we gotta disagree there, we saw enough of most of those to know that owning one or breeding to him would be a risky decision.

And what does the racing world have to do with this OP's thought to breed these mares to Warmblood stallions? Which is entirely his or her own business to make decisions like this?

If you are in some way trying to discredit my post here due to where I live, well, I gotta say that the mares I breed are currently sired by: Clever Trick, Flying Paster, Son of Briartic, Ascot Knight, War Deputy, Bold Laddie, and Vying Victor (the last two local stallions of some merit, both with female lines that are acceptable internationally). Offspring from our small band has won at tracks across Canada, and in California and Sunland Park, several being stakes class or allowance winners, from our small private breeding program. Our most successful produce, out of a mare by Irish Tower who was a nice allowance winner herself in California, was a multiple stakes winner in Macau earning the equivalent of half a million canadian funds, and did race on Dubai Cup Day, in the Gold Shaneen sprint, a race of international stature with a purse of $2,000,000. He did not bring home a cheque that day, but he had run third in the prep race, and was thought to be "in with a chance" according to the nice man at the entry office in Dubai, when I contacted them prior to the race. Not too shabby a record for a little private breeding farm in the sticks of British Columbia.

Do you think that all this qualifies a response suggesting a simple shot of ACTH to help an owner bring mares down on their luck and condition back to a state where they can be adequately evaluated? Perhaps it is time to take the "blinkers off" and take a look around at reality.

[MintHillFarm]

Yes I would agree on the ulcer topic...you should check that out and pull blood for sure. Were they up to date on all shots etc?

[DickHertz]

She also had some lameness issues that you would never expect in a 4 year old horse.


2 and 3 year old horses can be as lame as an old veteran . Age means nothing. 15% of all 2 year olds start their racing career with a chip according to Dr. Larry Bramlage.

[aburke]

Good grief! Just how many colostrum sales folk ARE on this board, anyway? At least, spanishwells, you have the good grace to declare yourself, unlike "aburke" of Re-borne, who has been, shall we say, a little less upfront about his/her motives for promoting his/her product:

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/search.php?searchid=3773789

Motives for talking about Re-Borne = Health of the Horse. I don't really know what you are looking for?

[Laurierace]

Motives for talking about Re-Borne = Health of the Horse. I don't really know what you are looking for?

I shouldn't put words in her mouth but I assume she was talking about the promotion ie advertising of a product she sells which is not allowed on this site. Some people attempt to bypass that rule by working the product into conversation and hoping it will go unnoticed that they are actually advertising. She pretty much just threw it out there for all to see.

[hunterjumper22]

I recently got an OTTB too. The first week he was depressed and just nibbled at his feed. His lymph nodes were also swollen. I put him on antibiotics for 10 days to see if it would help. I had the vet look at him and he was fine. He came around quickly. Racehorses are so use to a time schedule. When you change it so drasticlly it can really affect there life. He was happier when I would take him for walks. He really just wanted a job. I have had him for 3 months now. He is always outside and only comes in when the weather is bad. He looks to be enjoying life now. He is usually always the first one finished eating and ready to go outside. He has been completly fine since the ordeal the week I got him. I think he is just happy being a horse now. He enjoys his trailrides, and is learning to jump.

[Colorful Colorado]

First - there are many of us that feel a real responsibility the race retirees and select Blood stock from OTTB. Not every "cheap" claimer started as a claimer - many have stakes and allowance earnings and exceptional family lines. Many retire sound even though they may have had up to a 100 outs. The issue here is not that these horses are "cheap" rejects but that owners run them down in class until not another penny can be made. The problem is not these lovely mares - but greedy owners. That being said....
Research has shown that grain contributes to ulcers - stop graining the horses and feed free choice hay or put to good pasture. Put good old baking soda in their water trough and see if they start to perk up quickly - if baking soda helps the "grouchy" belly then its very likely ulcer. While b.soda will fix them short term - it doesn't heal the stomach it simply eases the symptoms. You might go the more expensive ulcer medicine once you have the good-ole-boy diagnosis. But also, consider that horses are herd animals. If they had stable mates that they were greatly attached to, I have seen a type of depression in some of my relocated horses. I have had some OTTBs that don't know how to graze and while everyone else is head-down munching - they are looking around. The habit of feeding high calorie but only twice a day alters their eating habits, which can lead them to thinning a bit after you get them. Take heart - they fatten up quickly once they settle in.
Blessings to you in opening your heart and farm to an OTTB.