Discrimination in North American Bred stallions?

[STF]

With all the talk of mare discrimination what are you thoughts on North American bred stallions? Do you feel they are appreciated as they should be?
Im not talking about imported stallions, Im talking of those bred and raised here in North America, even if its through frozen semen or use of a then standing North American stallion.

[Tasker]

Yes.

[STF]

Come on Tasker... elaborate. What are your thoughts and why?

[siegi b.]

I don't think it matters whether the stallion was bred here or bred in
Europe and then shipped here.... Unless you have loads of money to advertise and campaign your boy you're going to become one of those "6 mares per year" statistics.

American breeders in general want the latest and greatest in stallions for their mares and frozen semen makes that possible. Also, people shopping for horses recognize stallions that have been advertised heavily and/or have been in the news because of wins at the highest levels, and that's what they want.

Sure, there are always exceptions to the rule and some of those can be explained by other factors (color, etc.), but generally owning a stallion in the US is not for the faint of heart.

Just my opinion....

[Tasker]

Is there really a need to elaborate? My cynicism is going to be showing, but here goes...

The 100 day test winners, losers, participants (when it was running) are/were never given the same respect that the stallions across the pond get for doing their tests over there. Even stallions who do abysmally in the European tests (low 90's scores) are hyped & promoted for being imported above & beyond stallions that live on this side of the pond.

The mystic for imports exists and will continue to do so. Not that there is _anything_ wrong with using imported stock but the false importance of being able to say "he/she was imported" continues today. That little statement carries far more weight than saying my horse was born in ____ (fill in the state).

Of course, this is all just MHO... :lol:

[STF]

become one of those "6 mares per year" statistics

Is that only what most stallion owners are getting now?? It use to be an average of 10, wasnt it? WOW!

[tri]

STF, I think it was always 6.

I think the exception is with hunters. It is interesting that the euro wb people who are into dressage always say that the hunter people don't care about bloodlines, papers, etc. But, in reality, the hunter people are much more aware of what is winning on the line, in the conformations, etc and actively seek out those American stallions. An American based hunter stallion that is out there in America winning or has offspring that is out there winning is more known and is more sought out than the dressage stallion out there winning IN AMERICA. If the dressage horse is winning in Europe, it is a different matter.

But, I'll say again, the hunter crowd knows the American market and tends to support it, knows who the local stallions are and the bloodlines much better than the dressage folks.

And, add the IHF which has the top stallions listed, photos of the horses that are winning on their website for all to see along with the BREEDERS and the bloodlines, the hunter people are way ahead of the dressage folks.

[STF]

But Euro ppl dont really breed for hunters and hunters is a North American "thang"... so I can see how it would be more supported. Like the other thread not to long ago said, hunters stallions are a bit different, rightly so, for the sport.

[tri]

I think the point I was trying to make was that the dressage people, for all their big talk and the stone throwing that many have done against the hunter people, haven't walked the walk while the hunter people have.

[NoDQhere]

I almost hate to say it but I think "advertising budget" is the main thing in how people select stallions in this country :eek:.

[grayarabpony]

I almost hate to say it but I think "advertising budget" is the main thing in how people select stallions in this country :eek:.

And you're basing this on???

[pony grandma]

I almost hate to say it but I think "advertising budget" is the main thing in how people select stallions in this country :eek:.

And you're basing this on???

Pretty Daddy Pictures.

[FriesianX]

I don't think it matters whether the stallion was bred here or bred in
Europe and then shipped here.... Unless you have loads of money to advertise and campaign your boy you're going to become one of those "6 mares per year" statistics.

American breeders in general want the latest and greatest in stallions for their mares and frozen semen makes that possible. Also, people shopping for horses recognize stallions that have been advertised heavily and/or have been in the news because of wins at the highest levels, and that's what they want.

Sure, there are always exceptions to the rule and some of those can be explained by other factors (color, etc.), but generally owning a stallion in the US is not for the faint of heart.

Just my opinion....

Oh Siegi, not just the faint of heart, I'd go further to say, not for the smaller pocketbook!

It takes a lot (wait, a LOT, how can I emphasize $$$$$) to impress mare owners. Having a top trainer campaign your horse, having the money to place ads everywhere (COTH, Dressage Today, USDF, Practical Horseman, etc) is what makes a mare owner sit up and notice. Many talented horses go unnoticed because they aren't with the top talent trainer, aren't shown at the big money shows, etc.

Yeah, I have to agree with Siegi and NoDQ on this one.

And didn't I see the statistic that the average stallion booking is 4 to 5 mares annually? Of course, this is an AVERAGE, which means for the stallion that gets 30 books, 9 other stallions are getting one or two bookings...

ETA - have you priced print ads lately? Figure a 1/4 page black & white ad in a single publication for ONE MONTH is going to run you between $300 and $1000 (depending on the publication, of course).

[Equine Reproduction]

Is that only what most stallion owners are getting now?? It use to be an average of 10, wasnt it? WOW!

Yes, it always has been about 6 - BUT that "is" worldwide, not just a North American phenomenon.

I do think that there is a misconception to a certain degree about stallions that do well or don't do well at the 100 Day Tests, or those that are imported, or frozen semen. Stallions that are heavily advertised, well promoted, well managed, owned by individuals with known good reputations who go above and beyond on customer service tend to do well regardless. I do think that mare owners are becoming more discerning and recognize that just because a particular stallion WINS the testing, does not necessarily make him the best horse or the most talented horse. I also think that mare owners are easily distracted by the latest flash in the pan and will often purchase frozen semen on stallions that ultimately prove themselves to be nothing particularly exciting.

I agree with NoDQhere in that advertising plays a BIG part in which stallions will get the breedings, but I also think the customer service provided will determine whether or not those stallions CONTINUE to get breedings.

I do think Tasker also is correct in that the assumption is (was) that if a stallion fulfilled his performance requirements in Germany at a testing over there, that he must be better than what we have over here. Personally, I always looked at the 100 Day Test simply as a means of selecting a stallion. If he passed, that was all I was concerned with. I didn't really care where he placed - I might look at some of the scores, but having had stallions go through the testing, I recognize that just having one pass is a considerable feat.

Discrimination for North American stallions? Mmm...I think that there will ALWAYS be a certain number of breeders that will ALWAYS breed with imported frozen semen and don't even bother looking at what's available here. Those individuals probably aren't going to even bother looking at North American stallions. But, I do think that the vast majority of breeders do breed domestically and it has now become a matter of providing a good service, a good stallion, and good promotion.

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

And

Avalon Equine
Home of Edelweiss (Selle Francais)
LA Express (Hanoverian)
Mannhattan (Oldenburg
http://www.avalon-equine.com

[grayarabpony]

Pretty Daddy Pictures.

How do you know people are BREEDING based on Pretty Daddy Pictures? Apparently not that many if American-based warmblood stallions are only getting 6-10 breedings per year.

Edited to add: If it's true and all else being equal (including performance records), the most highly advertised stallions get the most business, it makes sense to import from Europe.

People are going to pick European stallions because those stallions have a performance record often for themselves and for their get.

What I don't understand is why people put so many bad pictures in their ads. At least start with a good hook!

[Equine Reproduction]

Apparently not that many if American-based warmblood stallions are only getting 6-10 breedings per year.

That's NOT just American based stallions. That IS worldwide. While Germany will have a handful of stallions that are getting an incredible number of breedings, they also have stallions that are getting just one or two. It is NOT an American stallion phenomenon.

People are going to pick European stallions because those stallions have a performance record often for themselves and for their get.

Unfortunately, while there are some of those stallions that North American breeders are booking to, I think you'll find the larger number are breeding to the latest flash in the pan, Bundechampionat that has NO track record beyond doing well in that particular venue. They have no foals to determine which mares work best, or even if they are able to pass on their abilities. But that also goes back to promotion <smile>.

What I don't understand is why people put so many bad pictures in their ads. At least start with a good hook!

Boy do I agree with you on that one!!! I think many breeders lose bookings not because they don't have a nice stallion, but because it's difficult to see beyond an atrocious photo. With that said, I do find it funny and interesting to see how some people will love a particular photo and others will think it's awful <lol>. But good photos are essential as often, it's the ONLY thing that you have to show a potential "buyer"...

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

and

Avalon Equine
http://www.avalon-equine.com

[dutchfan]

how do people/mare owners view stallions that didn't pass their testing in europe, arene't recognized by their "homestudbook" but still come over here and breed anyway? Is there any point in this other than owners vanity?

[NoDQhere]

And you're basing this on???

The fact that the stallions who are the most heavily advertised ARE the ones people "see" the most.

[ahf]

I think there is a prejudice against domestically bred, dressage-oriented stallions. A huge one. But just importing a recently tested stallion is not enough - I can count 20 imported sires that aren't getting any mares either. A certain perfect storm of circumstances must be there for even an imported stallion to be successful. Let's consider two of them.

There are two stallion owners in the US that I can think of that are absolute geniuses at stallion selection and management: Angela Barilar and Edgar Schutte.

Angela has an amazing eye, and an absolutely intuitive ability to get her hands on great young stallions by "the next big sireline". Her business-sense is scary-good. She started with Duellglanz and Lessing, built up a client base and then hit one completely out of the park with Davignport. She used the interest and hype in Davignon, Davignport's own presence and movement and building on her extant client base created a warmblood stallion sensation. Then came Delaurentis and Rosenthal. Those Davignport mares needed a place to go, so building on her client base once again she got foals on the ground, and then got them to the shows - their progeny started creating it's own hype. She beat everyone to the punch with Sinatra Song - one of, if not THE, first Sandro Hit son in NA. Her client base came into play once again, and SS's quality as a sire did the rest.

Edgar does things a little differently. He has a program built around jumper sires that appeal to both markets (jumpers and dressage...AND the hunters. His customer service is legendary in the business - few can match it. I cannot count the number of people that when faced with a decision between one of Edgar's and someone else...choose Rainbow Equus because the man is such a prince, and his service so amazing - and you just KNOW the transaction will be painless He also has an intuitive sense of what sirelines or stallions to bring over that are already established....and that is something not many people here have been successful with. Older stallions are, I think, viewed as old news...unless they are Edgar's.

What I think is important here, is that neither Edgar nor Angela bred their own stallions, and neither of them are overnight sensations. They did not just import a stallion and hang out a shingle and expect a full book. They both spent the last 20 years building their businesses and their client base, and honing their eye and their business sense. They reached a critical mass with both the NUMBER of the stallions they stand (you can't have just one, IMO) and the number of past, satisfied clients for return bookings. You can cut your advertising quite a bit if you already have a full rolodex to announce your new acquisition to. They are not overnight successes - they earned every bit of it. I stand in awe before both of them.

I also think that domestically-bred stallions for the dressage market will never get much interest or many mares - no matter what the competition record or how well-managed they are. It's a fool's errand (though I personally and financially would like to be proved wrong with this). I do think there is some hope in the stallion station model. But if a SO can derive satisfaction in some other way than number of mares bred, it can perhaps be rewarding. My own jury is still out on that one. ;)

[tri]

You mean like Rubinstein? He was a Westfalian stallion who was turned down by his "home" registry. Then I guess Gudula was indulging in her own vanity!!

Oh, and Voltaire who was turned down, brought to Holland and came in 14th out of 14th. Such outragous vanity!

[grayarabpony]

That's NOT just American based stallions. That IS worldwide. While Germany will have a handful of stallions that are getting an incredible number of breedings, they also have stallions that are getting just one or two. It is NOT an American stallion phenomenon.



How many sportshorses are being produced in Europe every year? Including France?



Unfortunately, while there are some of those stallions that North American breeders are booking to, I think you'll find the larger number are breeding to the latest flash in the pan, Bundechampionat that has NO track record beyond doing well in that particular venue. They have no foals to determine which mares work best, or even if they are able to pass on their abilities. But that also goes back to promotion <smile>.


If I was going to use frozen from Europe I'd use a proven stallion, but I can see taking a chance on a really spectacular young stallion.

[Equine Reproduction]

How many sportshorses are being produced in Europe every year? Including France? [/quote[

Don't know the answer to that. More than are being produced here. But, the figure of 6 mares per stallion is across the board, across the world - not just sporthorse and /or warmblood stallions.

[quote] If I was going to use frozen from Europe I'd use a proven stallion, but I can see taking a chance on a really spectacular young stallion.

Comes back to risk versus chance of gain. Horse breeding - The ULTIMATE in horse gambling <smile>.

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

[sfstable]

As a mare owner who breeds 2-5 foals a year, I have a small vent for some "North American" stallion owners :) and I think that this vent contributes to "my discrimination" of N. American stallions and why I would use a "foreign" stallion over a "local" one.

I look at bloodlines, confirmation, fertility and which stallion will match well or contribute well to my mare. But the more I breed and the more money I spend on breeding, other issues have become increasingly important.

I prefer to use fresh semen if possible and I do think it is important to support "North American" stallions, however I absolutely HATE Monday, Wednesday and Friday collection schedules. I will not use a stallion with this collection criteria. My friend who breeds 5 plus WB foals a year also has stated she will no longer use a stallion with this criteria. I will use a "foreign" stallion with frozen semen before I use one with a MWF collection criteria. I have found it actually costs me less money in the long run to use frozen rather than a MWF collection stallion because that mare always turns out to be the one who doesn't cooperate on her cycle that year.:)

I really, really like a "American" hunter stallion for one of my mares (an imported KWPN mare with an excellent hunter show record), but I will not be using him because of his collection schedule and I am probably going to go with imported semen instead.

[Fairview Horse Center]

So, what is the average number of breedings for a US based Warmblood stallion? European based Warmblood stallion?

[Equine Reproduction]

I prefer to use fresh semen if possible and I do think it is important to support "North American" stallions, however I absolutely HATE Monday, Wednesday and Friday collection schedules. I will not use a stallion with this collection criteria.

I agree!! It's one of the things we teach in our classes! There just aren't any arguments as to the benefit of using a M/W/F schedule on the mare's behalf. There are very, very few stallions out there who have such poor fertility that they can't be collected daily (and if their fertility "is" that bad, do you really want to breed to him?). Ultimately, it "is" a service oriented business and if a stallion owner isn't willing to go the extra mile, they are bound to lose business, no matter HOW nice the stallion is!

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Course
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

And

Avalon Equine
http://www.avalon-equine.com

[tri]

As a mare owner who breeds 2-5 foals a year, I have a small vent for some "North American" stallion owners and I think that this vent contributes to "my discrimination" of N. American stallions and why I would use a "foreign" stallion over a "local" one.

Along with the too high stud fees for stallions WITH NO SPORT RECORD OR NO OFFSPRING IN SPORT. And inspection scores don't count.

Along with "booking fees". Along with nickle and dimeing too death. Along with "collection fees". And all the other. A lot of stallion owners make themselves uncompetitive.

[Equine Reproduction]

Along with the too high stud fees for stallions WITH NO SPORT RECORD OR NO OFFSPRING IN SPORT. And inspection scores don't count.

Along with "booking fees". Along with nickle and dimeing too death. Along with "collection fees". And all the other. A lot of stallion owners make themselves uncompetitive.

While I will agree that there are some stallions out there with high breeding fees with no real reason behind them, I don't think most stallion owners "nickel and dime" mare owners. Booking fees, for most stallion owners, are including in the breeding fee and are there to establish how many mares they may possibly be getting to their stallion and to determine how to manage the breeding season. Some stallion owners will need to know if they just haul the boy to a facility to collect, leave him at the facility, do more competitions, budget for fewer competitions? Book in that photographer for new photos? Pass on the photos and just buy hay, etc. Collection fees again are a necessary evil, although they can be a deal breaker, as well. Some stallion owners have to factor in hauling their stallion to the vet clinic, collecting the stallion on farm, etc. It's just part of the costs involved. But you are correct, some stallion owners do make their fees so high that many mare owners won't even consider them. Others - well..it's just part of the costs of doing business.

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

[STF]

If I was going to use frozen from Europe I'd use a proven stallion, but I can see taking a chance on a really spectacular young stallion.

Friend of mine bred her mare, who was average type to Count Grannus a few yrs ago. She got the doses for $350 on a last minute order. Just tested stallion from Celle, no real record, but the cross was super. Even the AHS inspectors had very good things to say about the filly. Overall, it was a good gamble. Not saying it always happens like that, but you know what I mean.

I think some bloodlines are worth taking a gamble on, IMO.

[STF]

While I will agree that there are some stallions out there with high breeding fees with no real reason behind them, I don't think most stallion owners "nickel and dime" mare owners. Booking fees, for most stallion owners, are including in the breeding fee and are there to establish how many mares they may possibly be getting to their stallion and to determine how to manage the breeding season.


I agree. Its hard (HARD) to have al life during breeding season. Last year with Puerto low stud fee (I cant believe Im doing it again as crazy as last year was!!), I was running around with last minute collections, mare that would not ovulate for the vets, etc, etc.
I think mare owners also need to remember, this is hard on stallion owners and HARD to plan stuff with. I have no idea how a stallion can have a full comeption spring year and still be on call for collections 24/7. I bow to those of you who can juggle all of that too.

[tri]

I have gotten very leary of paying any kind of booking fee much in advance of when I'll need semen. I've been burned too often - stallion gets sold, stallion gets hurt, stallion goes to europe (actually happened to me & out over $3000).

Especially in this market, I think a mare owner would have to be insane to send a SO a booking fee more than a couple of weeks in advance of wanting to breed.

[ahf]

I have found it actually costs me less money in the long run to use frozen rather than a MWF collection stallion because that mare always turns out to be the one who doesn't cooperate on her cycle that year.

I have never, and will never, use a stallion with a MWF collections schedule. My mares don't always read the book.

I also love frozen. I prefer it. No getting hung up in Memphis because of thunderstorms.

My solution? I've used frozen from domestically standing stallions. I don't know any North American SO's that aren't very happy to sell to sell by the dose. For less than just about anything I could get from Celle.

[ahf]

Especially in this market, I think a mare owner would have to be insane to send a SO a booking fee more than a couple of weeks in advance of wanting to breed.


I'm happy to send in a booking fee a couple of months in advance if I know it's going to get me a discounted stud fee - such as an early bird special.

[STF]

In 10 years of this now, I have only been "burned" once and it was not really the stallion owners (then stallion owners) fault. The new owner of the stallion would not honor any old contacts to the stallion, etc, etc, so a few of us got burned.
So unless I know the SO really well, I dont book to far out either now.

[STF]

No getting hung up in Memphis because of thunderstorms

Ughgh!

[tri]

I can't tell you how many people I know that the new owners of a stallion either won't honor it, doesn't know how to do it, or doesn't give anywhere near the kind of service that was routinely expected out of the original owner....and then look what happened with Doug Spinks - too bad for the mare owners that season and too bad for the stallions too!