Would you buy a horse with Lymphangitis???

[oldenburger with fries and a cold beer]

This is a run off from the other thread..not wanting to highjack and all. So, would you run away from a horse with this condition even though the horse has all the right things. I am talking super brain and super athletic. This one comes out the same day after day and has the humor of Jack Benny/Chris Rock. This horse is sweet and gorgeous too boot. Has had an episode within the past couple of months. But probobaly not the first time. Horse is around 10.
Horse is still able to compete with fabulous results always!!!!! With no drugs on board. Except for adequan.
By the way, this is not my horse but one I am possibly looking into to either lease or buy. They are asking high 5 for this horse.
What do you think????
Thanks
Sorry if the spelling is off

[joiedevie99]

I would lease the horse at the asking price with an agreement that if it flared up and he was unusable for a certain period of time he could be returned. I wouldn't buy him at that price- might consider recommending it for a 50% price break if the family had room to keep him when he retired and understood that a flare-up the day before something like medal finals means scratching.

I've got one with it, we almost lost her during the first incident, though she has only had one flare-up and it was comparatively minor.

[oldenburger with fries and a cold beer]

Thanks Joiedevie99,
Your post was quite helpful. Sorry about your mare that must have been awful. I am glad she is doing well with no other episodes. I have never seen a horse swell the way this one did it was horrible.By the way I always find your post to be right on and quite intuitive.
Thanks

[SquishTheBunny]

If you love the horse, I would jump into a lease before purchase. Recurrent lymphangitis generally gets worse each time. If the horse encounters a bad flare up, you are always risking damaged lymph vessels and fibrosis, resulting in a permanently enlarged leg.

I would NOT pay any signigicant amount for a horse with this condition, however saying that, I know a horse withit, who is consistently champion in the C/A jumpers. Semi-retired from showing now (due to the lymphangitis), but his heart is still100% in it.

Pretty much the horse is a time bomb... it will happen again, but when? Each time it happens, it risks ending the horses career...or life.

Lease, or if you buy...get a vet check done to SIGNIGICANTLYlower the asking price.

[flyingchange]

It depends. How awesome is the horse? He sounds pretty nice.

I have one that is a former intermediate event horse. He had his first full blown case of lymphangitis (while with me - he may have had cases in the past, but I don't know) last December. I had a vet out which was pretty useless because the abx he gave me did not work. I ended up getting penicillin at Tractor and treated it with that (which sucked - giving penicillin always sucks ... but it had to be treated or he would not make it) - the Penicillin was 100% effective - swelling down significantly within 12 hours. The one thing the vet did teach me during his visit was the usefullness of dexamethasone to get the immune system to chill out a bit. But only use dex for three days (at 5 ccs per day) unless vet directs you to do otherwise (and then I would still be cautious) as it can cause them to founder if it is overdone.

This horse did recover - it took about a week for the swelling to go down completely. It was from a case of scratches that I did not deal with when I should have - I was out of town and of course it rained the entire week I was gone and this guy was out in what became a mud pit next to a round bale in his paddock. :dead:

Since this case this horse does get flare ups from time to time. Usually only if he is confined to a stall or it is wet out. I can usually work it out with exercise/turnout. He is totally sound at 24 and can still jump and do seriously nice flatwork.

From what I have been told, lymphangitis is usually the result of a previous injury to the leg in which the immune system has been seriously involved. Sometimes in these cases, the lymph vasculature in the area ends up getting damaged and can no longer effectively pump lymph back out of the leg as well as it did before. With this particular horse, he had had serious trauma occur to his fetlock joint about 12 years ago (in a trailering accident from what I've been told). So ... if/when a scab on his heel opens up and lets in a little bacteria - the whole leg can go haywire with the immune system attacking but not being able to drain.

Since last December, this horse has been lymphangitis-free. From time to time it may start to try to come on, but I have thus far been able to stop it before it gets out of hand. The key for me is to be uber-vigilant in watching the leg and acting immediately if I start to see lymphangitis rearing its head. If he has a flair up coming on I will usually first just exercise him on a hack and give a dose of dex along with a bit of bute. Usually this takes care of it. I also keep his leg dry and away from mud when it's wet out. I will let him out when it is wet but I make sure to wash the leg off when he comes in - with iodine scrub.

Would I buy a horse with known history of lymphangitis? I dunno. It would have to be a pretty spectacular horse. I would for sure make sure I knew how to manage it - talk to the current owner/caretaker and get the lowdown on what has worked in the past to treat it - which abx, etc. If it were a horse I were boarding somewhere that I would have to rely on barn staff to recognize and treat - probably I would pass. It is, from my experience, something that I feel is manageable but you kinda have to be very personally involved with the horse on an everyday basis so that you can see it right when it starts to come up. Barn staff, in my experience, are either too overwhelmed with other horses/responsibilities and/or not educated enough to be able to recognize and deal with lymphangitis flaring up. You'd be getting calls at work that horse is lame and get out there way too late to do much about it except start abx/handwalking/blah blah blah. Better to be able to get to it with exercise/dex/bute to PREVENT a full blown case then to have to treat one that has already moved in. Of course, if you have a barn manager that is top notch with dealing with these types of things, then that would be different (those BMs are worth their weight in gold!).

That said - most performance horses with experience are going to have some kind of ailments. Most of the time you do not discover until after you've bought them - even with thorough and $$ vettings. At least in this case you already know of at least one issue the horse has or has had. So you are doing better than most buyers in that respect. Since you have the option to lease, I would take advantage of doing that for now. If you keep the horse at a place with lots of good turnout in a clean environment, where he won't be allowed to stand out in rain/mud/manure and the leg will be washed (even better wrapped) before going in the stall - then that would be ideal.

It wouldn't be a deal breaker for me. But most def a negotiating point if you decide you can live with it.

[joiedevie99]

Thanks Joiedevie99,
Your post was quite helpful. Sorry about your mare that must have been awful. I am glad she is doing well with no other episodes. I have never seen a horse swell the way this one did it was horrible.By the way I always find your post to be right on and quite intuitive.
Thanks

Thanks. I try to help out when I can. Let me know if you decide to go forward with this horse, I've found a few management practices that really seem to help my mare.

[fivehorses]

joie, please share your mgt practices with us.
I am in the process of going through my second round of cellulitis/lymphangitis with my mare. This time its the other leg. Personally, I think it is lyme related.

I really want to know what I can do to prevent this, either by mgt or supplements or whatever.

thanks.
To OP, I always follow my heart.

[oldenburger with fries and a cold beer]

WOW,
Super big thanks to all of you, I truly appreciate all of your heart felt answers. I will post if this turns out to be a real deal. I am going to do some more home work. Thankyou. 5 horses I am so sorry about your mare I hope she recovers quickly and soundly. Sometimes it is just awful the heart wrenching situations we go thru with our animals. I guess these balance out those wonderful moments when you see them do something funny, amazing or plain just briiliant.
Good luck and good health to all
Thanks again

[hansiska]

I'm late to this thread, but just wanted to add that I bought a broodmare who turned out to have preexisting lymphangitis. I was told she "stocked up" if she spent too much time indoors. After three days on a trailer to get to me, there was no visible distinction to be made between the structures from her coronet band to her hock on her right hind leg.

After much investigation (many thanks to those on this forum who gave me advice at the time), I figured out how to sweat her leg down to a normal and pain-free state. I maintained her leg by wrapping it in a standing bandage every day. This was an older mare and she was used exclusively for breeding. Her lymphangitis bouts became more frequent and more extreme as the years went on, but I was always able to get her leg back to normal within a day or two -- until the very end, when she was increasingly unable to clear fluid or to heal. My vet's best guess was that she ultimately experienced lymphatic cancer. I chose to euthanize her because she could no longer heal (even tick bites would become open sores) and because she seemed to be in chronic pain.

Would I buy a horse with lymphangitis again? I'm not sure I'd buy a riding horse that I'd need to depend upon to be ready for shows, etc. At the same time, for me this is a known quantity; I know how to deal with it and what to expect. You have to decide for yourself if this horse is worth the worry and effort lymphangitis can require.

On a side note: I think it's so sad that, in many horses, this condition can be avoided if the original injury is noticed and treated appropriately in the first place!

[fivehorses]

Ok, folks, so share your words of wisdom on treatment and how to avoid lymphangitis?
Would really be appreciated.
OP, I am sorry to keep crashing your thread, but if people have treated it successfully, I think it would enlighten us all to know the 'how'.
thanks

[joiedevie99]

Well, here's what seems to work for my mare. Her initial episode was awful, and accompanied by septicemia. In 9 years since then, she has had one possible recurrence, but she had none of the normal signs (fever, lethargy, depression)- she just got a bit stocked up all the way up and down that one leg. Vet was there same day, did one bag of IV antibiotics, and put her on 14 days of pills. It's possible it was just normal stocked up, but we don't take any chances.

1. Exercise is mandatory. Do everything possible to encourage movement, and not just walking. I put the hay far from the water in the field. I put her out with a young'un who makes her move around a bit. If she doesn't seem to be trotting much, she gets 10 minutes of free longeing in the ring. Keeps the lymph fluid flowing and the swelling away.

2. If there is no way you can do real exercise (ice storm only- horse needs boriums in winter to get turned out on snow), walk the horse up and down the barn aisle - and wrap all around. I like the Back on Track ceramic standing wraps. They seem to do a better job keeping things moving and swelling at bay. I only use them on her hind legs, and put regular wraps on front.

3. Proper shoeing. Most people forget about this one, but the frog is a pump not just to get blood back up to the heart, but to keep lymph fluid out of the lower legs. Make sure you are addressing the frogs and shoeing or trimming in such a way that they can do their job.

4. Don't look for swelling- its too late if you see it. Learn to feel the lymph nodes up behind the stifles. Hard is bad, tender is bad, hot is bad. If you board, make sure whoever sees your horse every day knows how to find them, and actually does check.

5. Every scratch, cut, or scab on an affected leg is SERIOUS. Scratches are the devil. It's a mindset change. Every little ding needs to be scrubbed with your choice surgical scrub, possibly clipped around, and dressed. Needs to be done daily until its closed. Clean and apply spray furazone or aluminum spray that will stay on. Don't forget to check the dock for cuts, ticks, etc.

6. Any swelling in an affected leg is an emergency and warrants beeping the vet at any hour of the day. Every minute the swelling gets worse gives the infection a chance to take hold.

We make sure she gets probiotics and Red Cell whenever she has to be on antibiotics. Keep her feeling ok and her energy up so she doesn't get idle. She's 25 now, so she has some arthritis- and we make sure to keep her moving, even if that means she needs some bute or banamine on a cold wet day.

I'm sure I'll think of more later, but its really nothing special- it's just more attention and more more swift reactions to the normal stuff.

I've heard people claim there is a link between Lyme or Ehrliciosis and Lymphangitis, but I've never dealt with either myself- its certainly possible.

[notimenomoney]

Thanks for all the info. joiedevie99. I have a question though. What is the difference between cellulitis and lymphangitis? When my horse got it (he come down with it the day after his spring shots so they think it was related to that and the vet had seen it happen before to other horses), the vet said lymphangitis. He wound up colicing because of the pain and meds and changing his feed. I took him to New Bolten and they said that it is probably cellulitis which they said is more common. They were suppose to address it but only cold hosed him and kept him wrapped. Since he came home several months ago his swelling never went completely down but he also had a mountain range of proud flesh under his fetlock where everything had drained out. Three weeks ago, I took him to a surgeon to have all the proud flesh cut off. He is recovering well so far from that and his swelling is remarkably better. He leg stays wraped 24/7 and he is on stall rest while he heals. I only give him two handfuls of grain twice a day but has alfalfa hay several times a day. I also hand graze him for about 20 minutes everyday. Not sure why this is working but it seems to be.

[oldenburger with fries and a cold beer]

fivehorses no apology needed!!! I love reading all the info that everyone provides as well. :yes: Knowledge is everything. As a very smart person once told me" I never have a battle of wits with an unarmed person". So true.

[fivehorses]

thanks oldenburger.
Joie, thank you for a very definitive and great explanation. One thing, what kind of 'pills' did you use in treatment?

Also, I understand why to give probiotics, but why the red cell?

Right now, my mare is getting tucoprim and banamine, and of course cold hosed. And probiotics.

Anyone have any suggestions for any kind of supplement...that might ward this off? Or help with the immune system or increased circulation?

Also, with winter approaching, I do not have an interior wash stall, and my exterior one cannot be used due to ice and enormous snow amounts. Are there some kind of long boots that could accomplish cold hosing without getting water everywhere. Also, this is a percheron mare...18 hands, 2000 pounds plus so I am not sure regular boots would work, but any ideas would be welcome.

Oldenburger, I love this horse, so for me its a no brainer. Would I buy one with the disease? The first bout was bad, I am so far easily managing this one(keep knocking on wood), and except for two days, she could be in work. As joie, said, exercise is important.
Also, scratches, which she is prone to, and which I shave her for is probably the root cause. Plus, I live in New England, with clay soils(easily turns to mud) and also where the pasture can be woody, rocky, etc where a scratch could easily happen without me noticing.

This mare also had lyme this summer, but the vet told me, lymphangitis and erhlichea has more of a basis for a relationship than lyme.

I think the scary part of lymphangitis or cellulitis is how serious it can become if left untreated.

Cellulitis is inflamation of the cells, and lymphangitis is inflamation of the lymph system...other than that, I don't know.

I am going to ask where that lymph gland is, and with my mare, she shows signs early on, so we just have to be on top of it. And if I am away, those left need to watch her.

[joiedevie99]

I don't have any of her records with me at work, but I believe we used SMZs. As for the Red Cell, who knows if it does anything. I do it in case it helps keep her energy up (iron) and keep her moving around and feeling good. Drugs can also mess with absorption rates of vitamins and minerals, and I normally don't do any liquid supplements- which my vet thinks are easier to absorb, so I see no harm in giving her the extra just in case she needs it.

Talk to your vet about whether hot or cold will help the issue. My vet advised after the initial two days to move over to warm hosing since cold depresses circulation which is the opposite of what you want. I now do Back on Track wraps instead of warm hosing, cause it seems to work and its easier. I also worry about too much water on the legs softening the skin and making them more susceptible to scratches. If the vet wants you to stick with cold therapy, there are some great ice boots out there that will do the job, Horseloverz had some ugly red ones on sale for $20 per boot.

[fivehorses]

I am glad equine affaire is coming up...think I will be looking into the back on track wraps.

Interesting comment/perspective on the cold water and circulation suppression...makes sense.

I was speaking to a friend tonight(nurse) who's sister is a massage therapist. She said humans get lymphatic massage and wondered about its use in horses...anyone know?
The purpose is to stimulate circulation. Sounds reasonable, doesn't it?

[sunnycher]

I had a 10 y.o OTTB 17.1 that I bought from my trainer. He had shivers, and other than the outward appearance of shivers, I didn't know what I was getting into.

Let me say, I don't regret one minute of my time with him, he was the sweetest, kindest soul, who had been mis-treated and misunderstood, and mis-diagnosed. He taught me a TON.

I believe he also had EPSM, was bone thin when I got him home. So first order of business was diet, which I did all wrong at first, because I gave him lots of grain based foods, instead of fat based calories.

Anyway, in the 4 years I owned him, he got big, healthy (for him) beautiful, and fit and had a great life.

He had no less than 5 or 6 cases of cellulitis per year - treated with smz's, could not be in a stall overnight - when I had to stall him (at a show or clinic) he was always badly stocked up in the morning, most times lunging would bring it right down.

He was accident prone and had decreased feeling in his hind legs. One time he got a deep wound on his hind legs, and would stand like a rock for me to clean it without sedation, etc.

Anyway, at the end, he got a really bad cellulitis that ruptured along the lymphatic canal in his hind legs. The vet who knew him the 4 years came out and said we could treat him with a big shot of PCN, but it the cellulitis would continue to return, or it had progressed to a point and might not get better.

Anyway, I consulted with everyone I admired, trainers, vet, friends, etc, and we decided to put him down. He was truly a wonderful horse, and as I said I am not sorry I owned him, but I doubt I would knowingly buy another one with those types of issues.

Also, last year I got a cellulitis in my elbow, and OH MY GOODNESS, it hurt like CRAZY. I cannot imagine the pain he had, maybe a blessing he had decreased feeling in his hind legs. So many mysteries, I consulted lots of 'experts', and there just isn't much info regarding the connection of shivers, EPSM, cellulitis, etc, but from my experience, I am convinced they are somehow related. Good luck, gina

[oldenburger with fries and a cold beer]

Hi,
Thankyou, for all of your suggestions and heart warming stories of love.Oh my gosh sunnycher, I am sobbing after reading your post. You did the right thing. I guess they all have a way of telling us when the time is right. good luck and good health to all.

[SquishTheBunny]

Definately warm horse, not cold hose. Cold will only constrict the ducts! Work work work work work, lots of trotting, trotting poles, cavaletti's etc. Get the leg moving to promote circulation.

[Peggy]

Having owned one who had escalating episodes until one killed him at age 21, no. But, in retrospect, there was always something odd about this horse's immune system.

[fivehorses]

So movement is a good thing.
Hosing...I was told cold hose, but read on here that warm hosing is better for circulation. So, do you cold hose for swelling, and then when that subsides, do a warm hose to get the circulation going?

What about immune boosters or circulation boosters?

Any massage therapists out there who do massage for lymphangitic prone horses?

Any other recomendations?
thanks

[LuvMyTB]

Would I buy a horse with known history of lymphangitis? I dunno. It would have to be a pretty spectacular horse. I would for sure make sure I knew how to manage it - talk to the current owner/caretaker and get the lowdown on what has worked in the past to treat it - which abx, etc. If it were a horse I were boarding somewhere that I would have to rely on barn staff to recognize and treat - probably I would pass. It is, from my experience, something that I feel is manageable but you kinda have to be very personally involved with the horse on an everyday basis so that you can see it right when it starts to come up. Barn staff, in my experience, are either too overwhelmed with other horses/responsibilities and/or not educated enough to be able to recognize and deal with lymphangitis flaring up. You'd be getting calls at work that horse is lame and get out there way too late to do much about it except start abx/handwalking/blah blah blah. Better to be able to get to it with exercise/dex/bute to PREVENT a full blown case then to have to treat one that has already moved in. Of course, if you have a barn manager that is top notch with dealing with these types of things, then that would be different (those BMs are worth their weight in gold!).

:yes:

This is a great post.

The key to lymphangitis, IMO, is VERY careful and consistent management. This is extremely hard to accomplish in a boarding barn, especially if you cannot get there every day and/or don't have the option of full care.

I know this because I'm currently in that situation. My mare had lymphangitis in May (from scratches), and I believe the ONLY reason it didn't get very, very bad is because I happened to be there when the horses were brought in and I noticed the lameness/swelling.

I am at a large boarding barn with very few employees. Trying to manage and prevent lymphangitis has been very stressful. If it's going to be muddy, I have to call the night before and/or very early that morning to tell them not to turn her out. The BO accomodates me, but I *know* she dislikes keeping my mare in, because she paces and screams for the herd all day. Annoying, I know, but I'd rather have that than a blown-up infected leg.

If she goes out in any kind of mud at all, and I can't get there to wash her legs, I start to panic. I can't put her in standing wraps at night because there's no one to take them off in the morning. If I go out and find a scratch anywhere on her leg, I start to agonize about how long it's been there, is her leg already infected, whether I should keep her in or out, etc etc.

joiedevie and flyingchanges have given you very sound, practical and effective management advice here. Please carefully consider if you and/or the barn you're at will be able to provide this type of maintenance. If not, and you buy the horse anyway, be prepared for a LOT of stress.

That being said.....you know your heart. If this horse is "the one"--it may be worth it.

Good luck with your decision.