Ration balancers with soy

[jaimebaker]

So, I'm starting to read all the threads about soy. I have all of my horses on a product called Stamm 30 which is a soy based ration balancer. The most they get is 1lb a day. Is that even enough to do anything 'soy' related? I've had my youngest horses on it for about 3 months (they are 4 years old) and my others have been on it for two years. I don't see any issues personally, everyone is fat and happy (though I'm not happy about the fat part). Not sure what all soy can cause but just curious if such a small amount would do anything anyway.

[LMH]

jamie-it depends.

I think there are plenty of horses that do FINE on soy-like some do fine on alfalfa and others don't, same for oats, timothy, corn whatever.

If you horses are healthy, calm, not looking like stuffed sausages and not foot sore, you are ok.

On soy I observed mild aggressive behavior, ADD like behavior, skin sensitivity (to brushing or touching or blanketing, for example), and the biggie is slight tenderness over gravel.

The other biggie was a weight gain that looked like water retention (2 of them)


Now, that said I have another one that had scratches... I think his is alfalfa related (thank you pintopiaffe) and will remove that for him and see.

SO it just depends...

[Daydream Believer]

My herd had major problems on 1lb of soy based RB a day. It really does depend. Obviously some horses do fine with it but some don't.

[tabula rashah]

I actually feed my horses added soy- I get extruded soy bean meal and add 1/4 to 1 cup per horse depending on what I'm doing with the horse. I'm really happy with it.
I say if your horses seem fine and look good- go for it.

[boston's mom]

Pardon my ignorance, but I am new to the forum and just have a couple of questions about soy.

By soy, are you refering to complete feeds that have soybean hulls and soybeans?

Or feeds with other types of soy products?

I know in human nutrition that there is soy that is not too bad for you and soy that is absolutly the WORST thing you could eat (I have a thyroid condition and have been told to avoid soy like the plauge:D)....

Thanks in advance for clearing this up for me

[Daydream Believer]

I think mainly she is asking about the feeds that are predominantly soy and yes, made up of mainly soy byproducts like hulls and even meal. My understanding is that the soy oil is "better" but I'm not convinced any soy is OK after what happened with my horses this summer.

Soy is goitrogenic and well proven to cause thyroid problems in people and some animals. The problem is that no studies have been done on horses for that sort of thing and the feeds that are very heavy on soy like the Ration Balancers and low starch feeds haven't been on the market that long. I think that is why perhaps we are noticing problems now where as maybe in the past, it was only truly allergic horses that were having issues or the problems were more low grade and harder to pinpoint?

I don't think it's an allergy with all horses but I do think some are more sensitive to the toxins which occur naturally in soy and remain after the processing as well as the phytoestrogens which are very potent in soy. Soy is not a feed horses would have eaten naturally either. It is a feed people have put in for it's proteins and other benefits without fully researching if it can cause long term problems or not.

There are some good vets out there who believe soy does inhibit thyroid function in horses also and can cause IR type symptoms in SOME horses. Why some have problems and others don't no one can say...genetics I presume...but the same thing can be found in people. Some eat it their whole life with no issues and some folks lose thyroid function and have other problems also.

Some interesting websites for folks who want to read on soy:

http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/

http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/index.html

[boston's mom]

Thanks DDB! That was very helpful!

I have an aunt and uncle that are "old school" about nutrition and I can remember them telling me that soybeans were "toxic" to horses. Imagine my suprise when soy started showing up in a lot of horse feed!

I guess they are just ahead of their times!

[jaimebaker]

jamie-it depends.

I think there are plenty of horses that do FINE on soy-like some do fine on alfalfa and others don't, same for oats, timothy, corn whatever.

If you horses are healthy, calm, not looking like stuffed sausages and not foot sore, you are ok.

On soy I observed mild aggressive behavior, ADD like behavior, skin sensitivity (to brushing or touching or blanketing, for example), and the biggie is slight tenderness over gravel.

The other biggie was a weight gain that looked like water retention (2 of them)


Now, that said I have another one that had scratches... I think his is alfalfa related (thank you pintopiaffe) and will remove that for him and see.

SO it just depends...

Yeah, it always depends:yes:

Hmmmmm.... when you say weight gain like water retention, please clarify for me what that looks like. My horses are fat but it's because they have access to too much pasture. They were fat before I got them on this feed and don't look like a 'different sort of fat, but' it's still something I'm curious about.

I do have one horse that is sensitive when brushed but only on one small spot on his back. Hmmmm.


I wonder what sort of ration balancers are available in my area that don't have soy in them? I have them on this particular feed because it's low in sugar and starch. Nobody carries Triple Crown feeds around here:(

[Daydream Believer]

The only ration balancers I know of that are soy free (and I really looked at a lot of them) are Foxden's Lin Pro and EquiPride. I am now using Lin Pro for my horses and very happy with it.

Purina's RB's will show "vegetable protein" as contents but that is actually soy I believe.

The kind of weight gain I saw followed the change to the RB with my horses. They got absurdly fat and very fast. They looked bloated and almost like cellulite fat. Several of my mares developed udders also. I took my horses off the soy feed and a couple of my mares actually dropped weight dramatically fast. I have one hold on right now that is still slow to loose weight and she was my worst after the feed problem. She's probably lost 150 lbs and could still lose another 75 or so. UGH...what a nightmare. At least her crest has softened now and we have her in light work so we're hoping she will come around.

[jaimebaker]

The only ration balancers I know of that are soy free (and I really looked at a lot of them) are Foxden's Lin Pro and EquiPride. I am now using Lin Pro for my horses and very happy with it.

Purina's RB's will show "vegetable protein" as contents but that is actually soy I believe.

The kind of weight gain I saw followed the change to the RB with my horses. They got absurdly fat and very fast. They looked bloated and almost like cellulite fat. Several of my mares developed udders also. I took my horses off the soy feed and a couple of my mares actually dropped weight dramatically fast. I have one hold on right now that is still slow to loose weight and she was my worst after the feed problem. She's probably lost 150 lbs and could still lose another 75 or so. UGH...what a nightmare. At least her crest has softened now and we have her in light work so we're hoping she will come around.

See, this sort of news ticks me off (not you, about the feed itself). I put my horses on it because they were fat and I was told it was low calorie and great for easy keepers and I had a horse choke on crimped oats. I wanted something that would break down fast and easy when soaked.

The only reason they even get any food is so I can add in their supplements and do my daily booboo checks without a bunch of hassle.

Is their anything I can feed that won't add a bunch of calories that I can add supplements to? I was hoping for a ration balancer since these horses are out in pasture 24/7. I'd like to have something I can feed at least 1/2lb - 2 lbs of (once daily) so they can have a little something to do as the pastures are dwindling down for the winter. I'm so sick of getting into the vicious circle that the more I try to do for the horses to keep them healthy, the more I screw something up.:mad:

Editted: I have had two mares lactating in the spring for the last two years that are on this feed. I was told it was the clover doing it but now I'm wondering if it's not the freakin feed.

[JB]

Whole, raw soybeans ARE toxic to horses, which is why any form of them fed is always processed in some manner.

I don't consider Equi-Pride or LinPro ration balancers at all - they just don't get fed in high enough amounts to provide the protein levels that typically go along with a "proper" ration balancer. I do consider them souped-up vit/min supps though :)

Whether the amount of soy in 1lb of a product is enough to set any given horse off depends. Can it be? Certainly.

[jaimebaker]

Well, I'm hopping around on Purina's site since I have a few Purina dealers in the area.

Does anybody use the Nature's Essentials Enrich 12 supplement? It sounds like what I'm looking for. For idle horses and easy keepers and fed at the rate of 2 lbs a day or so.

[Daydream Believer]

Whole, raw soybeans ARE toxic to horses, which is why any form of them fed is always processed in some manner.



The problem is that processing does NOT remove the phytoestrogens nor the toxins in soy. It might make them more "edible" to some degree by horses but it does not make it completely toxin free. I would say that those horses that do react badly to soy are probably reacting to the concentrated phytoestrogens or the toxins that can't be removed.

I just got done reading a list of studies that show negative effects of phytoestrogens (off the Weston Price site). It is frightening to say the least and for years we've known that even grazing excessive amounts of clover (which is much lower in phytoestrogens than soy) can cause reproductive problems in some animals.

Here is the page...scroll down...it goes on and on....

http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/dangersisoflavones.html

[jaimebaker]

The problem is that processing does NOT remove the phytoestrogens nor the toxins in soy. It might make them more "edible" to some degree by horses but it does not make it completely toxin free. I would say that those horses that do react badly to soy are probably reacting to the concentrated phytoestrogens or the toxins that can't be removed.

Phytoestrogens? Isn't that what's in clover that cause lactation? Could this by why my mares are showing lactating in the spring or would it be all year round if it was caused by the soy?

[Daydream Believer]

Does anybody use the Nature's Essentials Enrich 12 supplement? It sounds like what I'm looking for. For idle horses and easy keepers and fed at the rate of 2 lbs a day or so.

I'm pretty sure it has soy in it if you are concerned about avoiding it. Purina is notoriously poor in labeling but someone did the research earlier and it did contain significant soy.

[JB]

The problem is that processing does NOT remove the phytoestrogens nor the toxins in soy.

I am saying "toxic" in the more true sense of the word - deadly to the species in general. Obviously processed soybeans are not toxic in that sense, though they can be "toxic" to any given horse for several reasons.

[JB]

Phytoestrogens? Isn't that what's in clover that cause lactation? Could this by why my mares are showing lactating in the spring or would it be all year round if it was caused by the soy?

Could be. There is some evidence that mares consuming large amounts of clover in the pasture can have a difficult time conceiving.

[jaimebaker]

I'm pretty sure it has soy in it if you are concerned about avoiding it. Purina is notoriously poor in labeling but someone did the research earlier and it did contain significant soy.

Here's the list of ingredients

Processed Grain by-products, Forage Products, Monocalcium Phosphate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Roughage Products, Molasses Products, Calcium Carbonate, Salt, Thiamine, L-Lysine, Potassium Chloride, Magnesium Sulfate, Potassium Sulfate, Vitamin E Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Copper Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin A Supplement, Cobalt Carbonate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Manganous Oxide, Manganese Sulfate, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Calcium Iodate, Magnesium Oxide, Zinc Sulfate, Copper Chloride, Ferrous Sulfate, Sodium Selenite



I'll do a search on here and see if I come up with anything.

[Daydream Believer]

I don't consider Equi-Pride or LinPro ration balancers at all - they just don't get fed in high enough amounts to provide the protein levels that typically go along with a "proper" ration balancer. I do consider them souped-up vit/min supps though :)



True...not as much protein as the soy based ones but I question if you really need that much if you are feeding good quality forage. I kind of doubt it myself. I did some research and you can easily provide enough raw protein for a growing large breed horse with good quality grass hay, a couple lbs of alfalfa pellets and a oats if needed and then top dress with a supplement like these to improve the quality of protein as well as provide minerals and fatty acids. By using Lin Pro I can keep my easy keepers on a lb or two of alfalfa pellets a day and NO oats and still meet my protein requirements easily. :)

[jaimebaker]

Could be. There is some evidence that mares consuming large amounts of clover in the pasture can have a difficult time conceiving.

Here's the thing. There were no large amounts of clover in their pasture. I mean the occasional patch, sure, but nothing significant. And the only thing that separates these two mares from my other mare is a fence. They are essentially on the same large pasture with just a fence separating them. The other mare never lactated. She was also never on the feed (up until 3 months ago).

[Rita1]

I moved, and since I could not find a supplier, nor did I want to pay the huge shipping fees, I decided to call it quits with cocasoy oil. I had been using this product for YEARS. Anyhow, the change in my arab mare is like night and day. She no longer needs shoes on her front feet, all her fat pads are gone and she has picked up a little more energy. She just looks happier. I was only giving her a squirt of oil on a handfull of oats, since she is such a easy keeper. So Im telling you what a difference a little soy can make to some horses. I also noticed that my warmblood mare is not as crabby.

[jaimebaker]

True...not as much protein as the soy based ones but I question if you really need that much if you are feeding good quality forage. I kind of doubt it myself. I did some research and you can easily provide enough raw protein for a growing large breed horse with good quality grass hay, a couple lbs of alfalfa pellets and a oats if needed and then top dress with a supplement like these to improve the quality of protein as well as provide minerals and fatty acids. By using Lin Pro I can keep my easy keepers on a lb or two of alfalfa pellets a day and NO oats and still meet my protein requirements easily. :)

I wouldn't mind doing that except I can not feed one of these horses any alfalfa at all. My stallion choked on oats, so I avoid them like the plague.

[JB]

True...not as much protein as the soy based ones but I question if you really need that much if you are feeding good quality forage. I kind of doubt it myself. I did some research and you can easily provide enough raw protein for a growing large breed horse with good quality grass hay, a couple lbs of alfalfa pellets and a oats if needed and then top dress with a supplement like these to improve the quality of protein as well as provide minerals and fatty acids. By using Lin Pro I can keep my easy keepers on a lb or two of alfalfa pellets a day and NO oats and still meet my protein requirements easily. :)

Getting enough raw (crude) protein is not a problem. Getting enough lysine IS when you feed all/mostly grass hay. Adding alfalfa makes a difference, but it depends on how much you can and do add. I cannot use significant amounts of alfalfa pellets for Rio - he would be ginormous if I fed enough to make up for the lack of lysine. I can't add enough oats to make up for it either - too many calories. Equi-Pride doesn't add enough, even at the 10oz dose. Are you *sure* you're meeting the lysine requirements? ;)

[JB]

Here's the thing. There were no large amounts of clover in their pasture. I mean the occasional patch, sure, but nothing significant. And the only thing that separates these two mares from my other mare is a fence. They are essentially on the same large pasture with just a fence separating them. The other mare never lactated. She was also never on the feed (up until 3 months ago).

Then I might indeed look to the soy in the rb.

[Daydream Believer]

Here's the list of ingredients

Processed Grain by-products, Forage Products, Monocalcium Phosphate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Roughage Products, Molasses Products, Calcium Carbonate, Salt, Thiamine, L-Lysine, Potassium Chloride, Magnesium Sulfate, Potassium Sulfate, Vitamin E Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Copper Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin A Supplement, Cobalt Carbonate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Manganous Oxide, Manganese Sulfate, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Calcium Iodate, Magnesium Oxide, Zinc Sulfate, Copper Chloride, Ferrous Sulfate, Sodium Selenite



I'll do a search on here and see if I come up with anything.

It sure is full of byproducts! See what I mean about vague labeling? No thanks! I'll feed something that I Know exactly what is in it and how much and will avoid feeding by products as well. I will be shocked if it is soy free and it's not hidden in the label as some kind of by product.

[Daydream Believer]

Getting enough raw (crude) protein is not a problem. Getting enough lysine IS when you feed all/mostly grass hay. Adding alfalfa makes a difference, but it depends on how much you can and do add. I cannot use significant amounts of alfalfa pellets for Rio - he would be ginormous if I fed enough to make up for the lack of lysine. I can't add enough oats to make up for it either - too many calories. Equi-Pride doesn't add enough, even at the 10oz dose. Are you *sure* you're meeting the lysine requirements? ;)

Melyni might chime in but I'm pretty sure it's added to Lin Pro. i'm not feeding EquiPride but mentioned it as it is soy free. My horses have never looked better honestly...and all the babies are in good weight, no growth problems and doing fantastic.

I'm still trying to figure out HOW horses survived thousands of years of domestication (much less living wild and eating nothing but grass) being fed grass hays and traditional feeds so low in lysine until now? It doesn't add up. I'd love to understand how they came up with such high amounts being necessary.

[Daydream Believer]

JB...here is the page on Lin Pro/Lin Gro. It has Lysine.

http://www.foxdenequine.com/lingro.htm

[jaimebaker]

I'm still trying to figure out HOW horses survived thousands of years of domestication (much less living wild and eating nothing but grass) being fed grass hays and traditional feeds so low in lysine until now? It doesn't add up. I'd love to understand how they came up with such high amounts being necessary.

THIS, THIS, THIS. Back when I was younger we fed alfalfa hay, corn, oats, and Omolene. Horses were healthy. Everything has gotten so complicated and it's ridiculous.

I really wish I could feed oats and be done with it. Is there any type of oats that are better than steam crimped (for my choke prone guy?) I fed them oats a couple of years ago and they were fat as mud so that's why I put them on this garbage. They are still fat as mud.

[Daydream Believer]

THIS, THIS, THIS. Back when I was younger we fed alfalfa hay, corn, oats, and Omolene. Horses were healthy. Everything has gotten so complicated and it's ridiculous.

I really wish I could feed oats and be done with it. Is there any type of oats that are better than steam crimped (for my choke prone guy?) I fed them oats a couple of years ago and they were fat as mud so that's why I put them on this garbage. They are still fat as mud.

Yes, I'm with you on the confusion. I don't quite understand it all either.

Could you try Barley? Also, what about slowing him down by adding some sort of pellet like timothy pellets or even some beet pulp? Beet Pulp is really "chewy" and seems to slow down the fast eaters.

[jaimebaker]

Yes, I'm with you on the confusion. I don't quite understand it all either.

Could you try Barley? Also, what about slowing him down by adding some sort of pellet like timothy pellets or even some beet pulp? Beet Pulp is really "chewy" and seems to slow down the fast eaters.

That's what was so odd about the choke. He's the slowest eater out of all 6 of my horses. He got one cup of oats and choked for an hour and a half. He'd never had problems before. Now he has a giant rock in his bowl he has to move around and is on the soy feed softened to mush.

[jaimebaker]

I wanted to add, I would do beet pulp but don't have the time it takes to soak it properly. I need something that softens in under 15 minutes. I don't live where my horses are and travel every day to care for them.

[JB]

Melyni might chime in but I'm pretty sure it's added to Lin Pro. i'm not feeding EquiPride but mentioned it as it is soy free. My horses have never looked better honestly...and all the babies are in good weight, no growth problems and doing fantastic.
JB...here is the page on Lin Pro/Lin Gro. It has Lysine.

http://www.foxdenequine.com/lingro.htm
At .22%, at the relatively low amounts fed, the lysine added is negligible in the grand scheme of things. For example, right now, I add almost 15gm of Lysine to Rio's diet.

I'm still trying to figure out HOW horses survived thousands of years of domestication (much less living wild and eating nothing but grass) being fed grass hays and traditional feeds so low in lysine until now? It doesn't add up. I'd love to understand how they came up with such high amounts being necessary.
They don't need as much in the way of amino acids to build the muscles that are required for the type of work we ask them to do :)

If it's a simply pasture puff, lysine likely isn't an issue.

I can only tell you that I have seen a very noticable increase in muscle, without more work, purely by adding lysine :)

[JB]

I wanted to add, I would do beet pulp but don't have the time it takes to soak it properly. I need something that softens in under 15 minutes. I don't live where my horses are and travel every day to care for them.

Shredded beet pulp takes really a very short amount of time to soak up properly. 15 minutes should be more than enough, especially with hot water.

[Seal Harbor]

I wanted to add, I would do beet pulp but don't have the time it takes to soak it properly. I need something that softens in under 15 minutes. I don't live where my horses are and travel every day to care for them.

I make my beet at home and haul it to him every day. Let me add this caution - do not brake hard with the bucket of beet pulp on the floor - I now have beet pulp in my heater. I need to vacuum it out since it has finally dried up again.

[LMH]

per this issue of Horse Journal, 1 lb of beet pulp adds about 2g of lysine.

1 lb of alfalfa gives 4 grams of lysine.

Just adding a flake of alfalfa a day (about 3 lbs?) would about cover most horses! :)

1 lb of rice bran gives about 3+ g of lysine.

Just a little tidbit for those that like to use 'foods' to get the stuff in rather than powders :D

[Daydream Believer]

So what is the recommended daily amount of lysine? I feed alfalfa pellets already and the Lin Pro.

[LMH]

I don't have the NRC in front of me....but from my notes on my horses.

Julian is about 1300 lbs and is about 36-40g
Milo is about 1500 lbs and is 40-46g
Hugo is about 1100 lb and I have his at 30-33g

These are all light to moderate work

Polo is about 1250 lb and needs 32-37g for maintenance.

20 lbs of my grass provides 22.7 g

If 1 lb of alfalfa pellets give 4g, Polo needs 2-3 lbs of alfalfa.

Milo would need POUNDS of alfalfa or I can just give him 2 lbs and add Tri Amino. The TriAmino adds 10g Lysine per scoop.

LinPro is not adding enough to count-neither does Equipride.