Update on old soy issue thread

[kung fu buckskin]

A few weeks ago on the thread on use of soy in feeds, I indicated my "wild demon monkey horse" who was on a low-starch pelleted feed which contained soy was going to be pulled off anything soy immediately to see if this made a difference in unrecognizably strange personality he had developed over the past couple of months.

What I substituted: soaked no-molasses beet pulp pellets with freshly ground flax, rice bran, and sea salt. He LOVES his new "grain" and as he has been with me his whole life I'm surmising that his horsey brain thinks he's still being fed a treat at "the usual time" -- my feeding schedule for years has been to give a grain and some kind of pellets feed at about 9:30 p.m. after hay at 6 p.m.

Well, no more soy-ingredient-grain mix, he's getting this BP-plus now and what an incredible difference in behavior. He has returned to the (relatively) mellow fellow he was all his life until he started getting soy in the diet. There were no other changes in his environment or his management. I guess I have to conclude that it definitely was the presence of soy.

Just anecdotal, not scientific. But the anecdotal wild demon monkey horse is gone and my relaxed and happy gelding is definitely back!

So now I'm heading for the articles mentioned in the original thread and see what sort of thing in human consumption of soy I can scare myself with!

[Daydream Believer]

Just anecdotal, not scientific. But the anecdotal wild demon monkey horse is gone and my relaxed and happy gelding is definitely back!

So now I'm heading for the articles mentioned in the original thread and see what sort of thing in human consumption of soy I can scare myself with!

:lol::lol: What did I start! Too funny!

I am pleased your experiment worked and he's settled down for you! Thanks for the update!

Those websites and the studies and articles will probably cure you of eating soy yourself too! They did me! Oddly enough, I feel better also...less digestive upset for one things and I'm very sensitive with gluten intolerance as a major concern in my diet. All I changed was to remove soy also for me and I do seem to be more comfortable and less likely to have a major digestive upset than before...even avoiding gluten.

[BornToRide]

Thanks so much for the update . How long did it take for him to become mellow again? How soon did you notice the changes?

[kung fu buckskin]

I was astonished to see how much soy is in every pre-packaged item in the grocery store. For years I'd been headed for a nearly 100 percent organic diet and so had basically cured myself of allergies and asthma by doing so - here we go again with anecdotal results, but on high percentage organic I was no longer spending over 1000 a month on meds. But the bad economy hit and I had this strange priority of horses' and dogs' food before people food so cut back on my own grocery budget, starting to use some prepackaged items. Now I'm reading labels much more carefully.

Soy is everywhere. Overprocessed, nasty soy is everywhere. I don't mean the harmless little frozen edamame guys that go in stirfry. I mean the oil and the meal and the "by products" whatever those are. Yikes and double yikes!! So now the money saving strategy on the people grocery budget means hitting the bulk foods aisle and farm stands where possible and continuing to stay away from the prepackaged items, again as much as possible.

I even dragged out the old crock pots - the dogs' dinners get cooked in one, and since soy appears even in canned soup (oh good grief - in SOUP yet!) and winter calls for soup, the other crock pot is now doing people soup duty!

[kung fu buckskin]

Forgot to add that I noticed about a week into the change that I no longer had to use a stud shank to take Scooter to his turnout. He's now back to a cotton leadrope. Another week into the change and he again accepted the presence of his water bucket as a normal fixture of his stall rather than as a container for horse eating monsters. Honestly - at the height of the nonsense he would do airs above any mat spot not covered by bedding. Haven't seen that shenanigan for a while.

I should have kept a daily journal because it really has been a dramatic change for the better.

[Seal Harbor]

Are your rice bran and flax seed Calcium and Phosphorus balanced? They are both high in phosphorus - rice bran is higher in phosphorus than wheat bran. If not add calcium to the beet mix, beet pulp is balanced but those two additions have probably inverted the ratio unless they have calcium added.

[Daydream Believer]

It is amazing how much soy is added to ordinary foods you'd never suspect like a loaf of bread or a prepared Hormel beef tips meal! I also am cooking much more for myself now. We buy our beef locally and I'm seriously considering getting my own chickens and raising them for eggs and meat. A hog I'm a bit more leary of as they are a PITA to have around but I'm sick of supporting factory farming also...so that may end up happening also. I put in a garden this year for the first time in years and will do a bigger one next year. I have some yummy straw compost for that saved up.

Traditional Asian soy products are much less a problem than the by products in our foods (both animal and human)...and very different also. What amazes me the most is that they get away with it. The soy industry has one heck of a marketing machine behind it.

May I suggest organics for soup? The ingredients are higher quality and soy is really pretty "common" in the lower range products like Campbells (as is gluten). I can buy organic soups that are even gluten free in the local grocery store. I also have a source of millet bread that is soy/gluten free that is excellent if you might be interested.

[Daydream Believer]

I should have kept a daily journal because it really has been a dramatic change for the better.

My working student and I really regret not getting before and after videos of our filly that had such terrible behavior problems with the soy. Her change back to normal was dramatic and sudden...like in days once we stopped the RB they were on.

[pintopiaffe]

My "miracle temperament change" was alfalfa, vs. soy, but was still dramatic. When I look back, I'm ashamed to admit I would 'play' with adding a tiny bit of alfalfa to the stallion's diet when he seemed to sluggish or low energy... :( I'm not proud of that. At the time, I thought it made sense--this makes him high, he's low, let's add a little.

But I finally recognized the photosensitivity as also a result.

Given the amount of alfalfa in a 'normal' Sr feed like TC Senior, my guy is a 1000lb helium ballon at the end of the lead rope. He forgets his manners entirely--and he's usually the most polite horse on the place. He spooks at his shadow, leaves, butterflies... but the worst is that he seems like he's not comfortable in his own skin. I wonder if that's truly the case. Hindsight being 20/20 and all, I wonder what I was doing to him when I wanted to 'add some energy.' :cry:

Luckily, he is a horse, a being far superior to humans in respect to mercy, kindness and forgiveness. :sadsmile:

It took far longer to figure out his 'scratches' and cellulitus were soy related. It's a damned inconvinience since alfalfa and soy are the #1 protein sources for horses these days. Luckily he's doing pretty durn well on barely or whole oats (barley in the cooler weather, it's higher starch, but still low glycemic response) flax and BOSS. Adding Lysine put him into the right condition and developed the topline we'd been missing.

Great info about the calcium. I worry that mine is low. Will have to peek at the (free choice) hay analysis again and see how that fares. I'm afraid it's prbably rather low since it's grass only. The growing horses & broodies get alfalfa pellets, but none for the boy! :no:

[BornToRide]

normal fixture of his stall rather than as a container for horse eating monsters. Honestly - at the height of the nonsense he would do airs above any mat spot not covered by bedding. Haven't seen that shenanigan for a while.

No kidding - my horse was like that while he was still on grain and alfalfa. The grain he got also had soy in it, but the alfalfa alone made him fly higher than a kite as well.

In his case he completely lost it when he saw two cows mounting each other at about 50 yards away. He was certain they were some sort of hell's spawn. He was shaking like an aspen leaf and his heart was pounding against my leg. He had also become more agressive on grain and alfalfa.

Since that time I sound like a broken record telling people to watch the diet, especailly when the behavior suddenly no longer makes any sense, as it was in your case with the water bucket. :rolleyes:But so many people just do not want to believe it, yet they have NOTHING to lose by taking everything away for a month or so except for good quality grass hay!

I ran into another case like this again today. The mare had improved a lot after she was put on local grass hay. Then I guess the owner felt bad and bought richer orchard hay. Well, the mare is obese again and cranky as ever. That had all disappeared. I wish the owner would finally see the connection :(

Ditto on the soy - it's in almost EVERYTHING :mad: I need to stay away from it because of my thyroid condition. I wonder how many other symptoms are caused by soy that we are not even aware of yet.

[Seal Harbor]

My horse has food allergies. He was tested in August this year and corn, oats, milo, timothy and orchard are no longer part of his diet.

He is not allergic to soy, molasses, beet pulp, rice bran, wheat or alfalfa. So that is what he eats, less the molasses and wheat.

I also get to read every ingredient label on anything he ingests, he can't have any of the things he is allergic to in supplements, or treats (we use alfalfa cubes as treats) no Mrs. Pastures cookies for him. Cubes are cheaper!

Perhaps these reactive horses have allergies? Mine was never a spook he does act like the baby that he is at times, less and less as he gets older (2-4, he is coming 5) but he did have digestive issues, ulcers and colic. Allergy symptoms are not always respiratory or dermatological.

He gets allergy shots now, we are in the middle of the desensitization series, but they can't desensitize for food allergies, just the respiratory and contact ones. Eliminating the allergens from the diet is the only thing you can do.

[Daydream Believer]

Perhaps these reactive horses have allergies? .

Soy is a powerful allergen so it is possible but I doubt it is just allergies that we are seeing. If that is so, than over 40% of my horses are allergic to it and I doubt that. What I do think is that some horses are more sensitive to the toxins and phytoestrogens in soy and more likely to develop problems on the feed.

When I first had problems and posted about them on COTH, I really could have believed it was just my horses' genetics as they are a rare breed but now...I don't think so. As well as the problems others have posted about on here...we've seen a big difference in two WB's on our farm now also after they were taken off the RB. Both are at a better weight and both are much less reactive. One, who had a long term problem with a bone cyst and was chronically lame following corrective surgery, actually is becoming sounder as well in the last month or so. No idea if that is related to the feed change from the RB to something else.... but soy has been implicated in mineral absorption problems as well due to the phytic acid in it.

[BornToRide]

And where do those allergies come from? Being gluten intolerant, I am now more and more convinced that the problem starts when the digestive tract is damaged by an offending food item. The damaged gut then allows larger molecules to enter the body and they accumulate somewhere in the body which then may lead to allergies and autoimmune diseases.

This theory would be supported by what kung fu here said, that her asthma and allergies virtually disappeared once she started eating more organic foods.

[kung fu buckskin]

Daydream Believer, I strongly second your comment about soy having a powerful marketing engine and add to that an extremely powerful and influential national (and international, not naming names here) lobbying cartel, and I use that word intentionally. Also, love the explanation about allergy vs toxicity and will raise you one, again my own anecdotal experience on myself vis a vis the cosmetics industry. There cannot be an "allergy" to titanium dioxide, for example, because for an allergy to occur - so I'm told by my board cert allergist - there needs to be a protein component in the material. Chemical sensitivity is triggered by most anything - with me, it happens to be titanium dioxide. Know what that is? In many cosmetics it is the sunscreen and just like soy it's now everywhere. Several companies even put it in their eyeliner, for pete's sake!!!

Pinto piaffe, I used to use barley too and then read somewhere - will try to find the study - that oats and barley had similar glycemic response levels and times. I read that when I joined the cushings group to help my three metabolic horses, but I don't think it was in the CG files. I miss having whole oats, the triple cleaned "racehorse oats" as I recall an old-timey horseman from my youth telling me feeding the heavy whole oats helped prevent impaction colics! Strangely, he, too, was adamantly opposed to soy, and that was many decades ago.

Seal Harbor - thank you for the tip on the phosphorus balancing. Can you tell me what is the correct ratio? I'm new at the hands-on ration balancing with mineral content and am relatively new to the above-mentioned yahoo group (under another handle) so am struggling to get it all right - and my hay analysis hasn't come back yet - but perhaps I can get at least the bp/rice bran/flax correctly balanced right away. Thanks if you can send that my way.

If I had to guess - after 50 years with horses - the mental thing that soy was doing to my gelding I might say perhaps his brain was "hyperactive." So, a dark spot on the floor of his stall, which was simply the mat showing in a spot not covered by bedding, became instantly a yawning chasm. A full water bucket glinting in the stall light was to him a fire about to start. A white sack blown against the pasture fence might grow to a giant miasma about to envelope and suffocate him. In other words, somehow chemically his brain was short circuiting; there was no more cerebral analysis going on - and this is a very, very smart horse - there was just instant instinctual reaction.

If that makes sense.

Well, and why not. Hey, I grew up on Disney!

[BornToRide]

the mental thing that soy was doing to my gelding I might say perhaps his brain was "hyperactive." So, a dark spot on the floor of his stall, which was simply the mat showing in a spot not covered by bedding, became instantly a yawning chasm. A full water bucket glinting in the stall light was to him a fire about to start. A white sack blown against the pasture fence might grow to a giant miasma about to envelope and suffocate him. In other words, somehow chemically his brain was short circuiting; there was no more cerebral analysis going on - and this is a very, very smart horse - there was just instant instinctual reaction.

Had the same reaction with my gelding - the manhole covers in the isle way were holes to the abyss. He'd react to shadows in the arena that HE had created by spooking and creating craters. He could no longer focus and effectively use the thinking side of his brain, only the reactive one.

[Daydream Believer]

Interestingly I was reading on one site about Manganese toxicity in infants/children fed soy formula and "speculation" by scientists to aggressive behavior and teen violence. Manganese is very high in soy products. Makes you wonder doesn't it?

http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/manganese.html

My suckling filly went absolutely psychotic on the RB. She was extremely reactive and had a vacant "not home" sort of look when you'd try to work with her. She was also very claustrophobic and would violently fight any restraint...she'd strike and rear also. She improved dramatically when we took her off the soy feed and within days. She has continued to gradually improve over the last few months...not sure if that is do to handling or detoxing but I suspect a bit of both.

We noticed several less dramatic responses than the filly's to removing soy as well. Reactive pushy and belligerent horses did calm down noticeably.

[kung fu buckskin]

Hmmmm. With the seemingly similar mental reactions in horses, now I'm also wondering if excessive soy in people products may be contributing to the adult hyperactive/attention deficit "boom" (or of course maybe that's just something "created" by Madison Avenue's ongoing romance with Big Pharma).

I'm going a-hunting for anything I can find on that as I have a dear friend overmedicated for ADHD which suddenly appeared a couple of years ago and is she ever miserable and doesn't even ride anymore because of it!

I'm sure soy is just fine for many people just as it is just fine for many horses. Individual brain and body chemistry being as complex as it is, perhaps it is just not right for some others - people OR horses.

[BornToRide]

I would not be suprised at all if that was the case. I still believe that doctors should start at the basics when a patient comes in with a health problems rather than indiscriminately throwing drugs at them. That would mean starting with nutrition and cleaning up the diet as a first try (by all means use drugs, if a condition needs immediate emergency type intervention ) before resorting to medication.

I also used to farmsit at a place that uses feed products, most of which containe soy. I NEVER felt comfortable around their stallions and am now wondering if the diet had anything to do with it. I would always attribute it to too much grain. Had some issues with hyper reactivity with some mares as well. I remember one mare cantering around me in tight circles on her own, while I was trying to lead her into her stall from her turnout. Just completely lost it - took 10 minuted for her to finally calm down.

Another mare is chronically laminitic on the soy diet she's on.
I wonder what those stallions would be like without all that soy in their feed.

[Seal Harbor]

Balanced Ca:P ratio is 2:1 or a bit less. Fortified rice bran is Ca:P balanced. Whole flax seeds you can't balance but if it is ground and stabilized they can do something about it.

[Daydream Believer]

Another mare is chronically laminitic on the soy diet she's on.


My vet reported a couple of ponies she cares for that were chronically laminitic cleared up when the owner took them off the low starch soy based feed and put them on a non soy feed. No one made the connection of the soy until I had my problems here and we discussed it. Apparently these ponies were pretty bad so their quick recovery with the feed change was pretty remarkable.

I'm certainly not suggesting that it affects every laminitic horse but I had my problems with Lodi and then these ponies...it sure makes you wonder. I have to report on Lodi also. She was galloping around her paddock earlier this a.m. and totally sound. I wish I could claim that my trimming did it but I have not had a lot of foot to work with and just am keeping her toes back.

[metzengerstein]

Seminole Feed (http://www.seminolefeed.com/) is currently conducting a horse feed survey, if anyone is interested!

Horse Journal (http://www.horse-journal.com/future/) has one, too.

[LMH]

There is a trimmer I know it Tennessee, the one that got me started on EquiPride, that found a HUGE connection with soy and tender hooves. She got me started on that as well!

I said this on another thread, but it makes me wonder if that is why so many horses 'can't go barefoot.

My horses did great off soy, I recently tried it again just to make sure I was not becoming over the top...tender hooves, whacky horses...

There is SOMETHING to all of this.

[LMH]

I just too the survey BEGGING for s soy-free ration balancer!!

[Daydream Believer]

I took the survey also and made my views on soy very clear!

Leah, there really is something to it. I am convinced.

[jmac84]

So, I have a 5 yo easy keeping Haflinger mare that has developed a mysterious front end lameness. (You can see my post from last night for more info if interested) Anyway, the reference to soy and sore feet peaked my interest. I had her on Purina's RB (Enrich 32 - formerly "Born to Win"). When I saw the previous soy threads, I switched her to whole oats - just enough to get her supplements in her (including Smart Paks flax based vit/min supplement for easy keepers on grass). I just started the switch about 10 days ago and haven't noticed a difference yet - but here's hoping maybe the switch will help her feet! Do you think this is a good choice for her type? My dealer didn't have BP and frankly I'd rather use the oats if they are OK because of the ease of use, versus soaking the BP.

[BornToRide]

I would not use anything higher in starches for an easy keeper type Haflinger horse. Just use hay pellets or some alfalfa pellets instead to mix the supplements in.

I have a client with a Haflinger. She's on local grass hay only with supplements and started to develop fat pads above her tail again. We were a bit stumped until the owner realized the horse had exercised less for a while! They can be that sensitive!

[LMH]

Well, the final 3 are proving there IS something to this.

I left Polo and the 2 minis on the darn soy...other 3 are off of it.

I have 3 level headed normal horses...and 3 animals that think ghosts are goblins are around every corner.:dead:

I am telling you there IS something to this.

[TBlitz]

:eek: Soy beans are really toxic to horses???:eek: I did not know that.

Though my TB is doing perfectly fine on it, I think my yearling may be affected by the soy in the PN balancer. I'm not going to switch feeds though until I can find something just as good as the PN for growing horses that isn't super expensive. Maybe PN will make a soy free balancer??? I, like many people, do not live in the states where Seminole dealers are.

[BornToRide]

I passed a link to this thread on to Jan Bowman, who recently did the research on sweet feeds and behavioral issue in young horses: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/08/080815170625.htm

:)

[jmac84]

OK - I didn't realize whole oats were high in starch. I will see if I can get hay pellets locally. Thanks!

[BornToRide]

Any cereal grain has a high starch content :yes:

[Melyni]

I just too the survey BEGGING for s soy-free ration balancer!!

There are soy free ration balancers out there already!
MW

[LMH]

Melyni-I know there are mineral supplements but none (including LinPro, to my knowledge) contain sufficient Lysine and Methionine to even come close to NRC requirements for horses.

Please do correct me if i am wrong!

[Melyni]

Melyni-I know there are mineral supplements but none (including LinPro, to my knowledge) contain sufficient Lysine and Methionine to even come close to NRC requirements for horses.

Please do correct me if i am wrong!

Er actually we have way MORE than is required by NRC of Lysine and methionine.
Plus 8 other essential amino-acids.
MW

[LMH]

I was going off the information on the website.

LinPro has .22% Lysine.

If we convert it to grams, 1 lb of LinPro is 454 grams x .0022=.99grams of Lysine.

The servings size for a 1000lb horse is 4oz...about 1/4 a pound.

Assuming a 1000lb horse eats 20 lbs of my pasture, he would get about 22g of lysine. He needs a total of about 30 grams of lysine per day.

That leaves him about 8 grams short.

LinPro provides less than 1 g in a serving size.

That still leaves him needing 8 grams of Lysine.

Where am I going wrong?:confused:

[jaimebaker]

Well, I got all freaked out now. All 6 of my horses have been on a soybean meal based ration balancer. When I started reading some of the issues that come with soy I got a little nervous since a few of these things have happened with my horses. I'm think of switching them all over to Purina's Natures Essentials Enrich 12. Picked up a bag today. I'm still doing research though if someone has better suggestions (cannot feed one of them oats due to a choke).

[Equilibrium]

I too have an older TB who can't eat oats either. Don't you wish they made an oatmeal product for horses with choke.

I also have a filly who's made a dramatic turnaround with behavoir. We have recently moved to a place with many things going on. It use to be if the leaves on the trees rustled she was in flight mode. Last night at feed time she had a digger across from the paddock digging a big hole, and greyhound trainers on the track behind her paddock/pen whopping it up with whistles and loud shouts. She sat quietly and ate like a lady. It use to be coming in from the field at night she would be on her hind legs and running you over. I use to use the term "Winter Abba" as this was the behavoir as the feed increased. Now we don't have "Winter Abba". And that's not to say she doesn't feel good and have a few bucks and kicks playing around with her sister, she just behaves when she needs to behave.

Before our diet change we had a serious issue with this filly. She can't wear a rug in the field. Anywhere else she's fine. She's not afraid of it in any way shape or form except in a field. Currently, it's only on at night and off during the day in the field. At the moment I have yet to try her again because the last time we tried, before diet change, she nearly killed herself. And prior to that she had been lunged and driven in the field with the blanket on her with no problems. I would be keen to see if now it makes a difference. But at the same time, I think we will leave it for this year. If I'm wrong, it could cost her her life. And yes the filly has been checked out by a vet for pain type issues. Next year she will be in work and things will have quieted down here.

I have 2 fillies just on a tiny bit of beet pulp and some alfalfa chaff with supps. It's amazing the difference in body shape on the 2 horses. They look completely different. No fat pads either and able to graze normally. The mare is on beet pulp and a few oats only because she can't seem to handle alfalfa - bad scratches before pulling her off. She use to have a major big gland at the very beginning of her neck, goiter like. My vet said, oh just a swollen gland. Off the soy and no big lump.

So I am indeed happy with my results as well.

Terri

[LMH]

I am wondering something else. If these horses are corked up like I see them...what is this doing internally to them?

I mean long term if they are running around like Henny Penny, could this cause gastric stress? Ulcers?
:(

[Melyni]

I was going off the information on the website.

LinPro has .22% Lysine.

If we convert it to grams, 1 lb of LinPro is 454 grams x .0022=.99grams of Lysine.

The servings size for a 1000lb horse is 4oz...about 1/4 a pound.

Assuming a 1000lb horse eats 20 lbs of my pasture, he would get about 22g of lysine. He needs a total of about 30 grams of lysine per day.

That leaves him about 8 grams short.

LinPro provides less than 1 g in a serving size.

That still leaves him needing 8 grams of Lysine.

Where am I going wrong?:confused:

A horse eats a lot more pasture than 2% of Body weight, It's 2% DRY MATTER intake. Pasture is about 20% DM so assuming pasture only, he would eat around 100lbs of grass a day if allowed access to it freely and if there was enough.
So, the questions is, what is the lysine content in your pasture? have you had it analyzed so that you know?
What else is he eating in addition to the pasture?

Supplements such as LinPro are meant to fed in addition to hay/pasture and thus are supposed to make up possible shortfalls not necessarily supply all the requirements for every nutrient. I assume that your hay/pasture has a certain amount of lysine present and calculate accordingly. Of course I don't have an analysis of your pasture/hay at hand so I have to make a best guess on the average content of pasture around te country and go from there.

There are many other nutrients in addition that need to be balanced as well, but if it is lysine only that you are concerned about, the simplest thing would be to use pure lysine and feed the 8 grams shortfall that you have calculated.

Right now I can't make any recomendation as I just don't have enough information.
But to go back to the original comment, there are balancers that are soy free already on the market, whether or not they have enough lysine in them for your particular needs remains to be seen.
YMMV
Yours
MW

[meaty ogre]

Hey Melyni, where do the essential amino acids come from? I mean, there isn't a lysine bean, so it has to come from somewhere? I asked my hubby this and he wasn't sure. How can I be sure that the lysine wasn't somehow extracted from a soy source?

Equilibrium, can you get your local feed mill to grind the oats for you? I have a geriatric herd, several of whom are missing teeth (including the ancient mini who previously choked who only has 5 molars left!), so I get my hubby to grind my feed into a mash/meal so I just add water and viola, oatmeal. It even smells like oatmeal when I add the maple flavoring.

[BornToRide]

Essential amino acids come from what we eat, the rest the body can produce oneself. You will not know where they were sourced from unless the manufacturer tells you.

[meaty ogre]

You will not know where they were sourced from unless the manufacturer tells you.

Exactly.

And the 2 most common sources of lysine appear to be flaxseed and soybeans from what I've been able to learn so far. Guess which is cheaper and easier to extract the lysine from? I have not been able to get answers from most of the manufacturers regarding the source of their lysine (and other aminos) but I'm betting it's soy.

Which is why my "ration balancer" is a whey protein powder milk replacer fortified with vitamins and minerals. It's not ideal because its uber expensive and I'm sure there are issues with whey as a protein source too, but since I feed a lot of alfalfa and good pasture I'm not having to supplement with a lot of it. But definitely something to ponder for those whose horses are truly reactive or allergic to soy.

[LMH]

Melyni I certainly did not mean to offend you and was not disrespecting the quality of LinPro.

It just seems at .22% Lysine, it could not be considered a 'ration' balancer. When I think of ration balancer I think of products that balance protein and amino acids in addition to minerals.

I consider LinPro a well balanced vitamin and mineral supplement of excellent quality, but not a protein supplement.

Most ration balancers are about 30% protein, contain 2% or so of lysine...and achieve this by being soy based.

One of the beauties of LinPro is it is NOT soy based so offers a choice for those seeking soy-free supplements.

Yes, I have tested my pastures and had the analysis assessed. While I may have been unclear on the dry matter vs. as sampled approach, the net results of what should be added is correct.

The results of my pasture are pretty common for grass pastures.

Again, I am sorry if I offended you but I think there is a difference if one is looking for a protein supplement.

[Melyni]

Melyni I certainly did not mean to offend you and was not disrespecting the quality of LinPro.

It just seems at .22% Lysine, it could not be considered a 'ration' balancer. When I think of ration balancer I think of products that balance protein and amino acids in addition to minerals.

I consider LinPro a well balanced vitamin and mineral supplement of excellent quality, but not a protein supplement.

Most ration balancers are about 30% protein, contain 2% or so of lysine...and achieve this by being soy based.

One of the beauties of LinPro is it is NOT soy based so offers a choice for those seeking soy-free supplements.

Yes, I have tested my pastures and had the analysis assessed. While I may have been unclear on the dry matter vs. as sampled approach, the net results of what should be added is correct.

The results of my pasture are pretty common for grass pastures.

Again, I am sorry if I offended you but I think there is a difference if one is looking for a protein supplement.

I am not offended, just a bit pushed for time and thus short, sorry. I didn't mean to jump on you.

LinPro is a ration balancer in that it adds the nutrients that are commonly short, to a base ration thus making it complete. Lysine is not that short in flax and I usually recommend using whole flax along with the LinPro. Also some grasses are higher than others and higher at different times of the year. But it is easy to add lysine, it's readily available, though not very palatable, I will look into increasing the lysine content in LinPro, esp in view of the new NRC recommendations. You do have good point there.

I deliberately make LinPro low protein relative to the other ration balancers out there because most horses, and most especially the cold blooded breeds, cannot handle high protein. It makes them hot, nervous and aggressive. That's why the folks feeding the 30% protein balancers are having temperament problems, it's not just the soy in them it's the total amount of protein. Balancers with 30% protein based on alfalfa meal or canola meal have the same effect.

SO I make a balancer with a low amount of high quality protein, eg I add in the essential amino-acids rather than a high protein plant source such as soy. Of course the soy would be cheaper, but in order to have the needed amount of essential aa's the total amount of protein would be too high. And the horses would also exhibit the behavior problems.

Now I don't know why high protein intakes esp low grade protein such as alfalfa or soy makes horses crazy, there is no research on this, it's just an observation over 25 years of feeding horses, thus I don't usually proclaim it from the rooftops, since I can't defend it with research data.

Soy and flax seed are the best available plant sources of lysine, and actually it really does not matter if it comes from soy since it's been purified it no longer has any soy characteristics in it.

Lysine can also be made in a vat of yeast cells, but that source is too expensive. So I would not worry about whether the lysine is flax derived or soy derived, by the time it has been crystallized out it is no longer a problem.

Any commercial feed company making a ration balancer is going to tend to use soy as it's protein source due to cost factors and ease of availability. Flax is hard to work with, alfalfa in low in lysine, you can't always get canola, so it tends to end up as soy. And until it can be proven that it's the soy that is the problem they are not going to believe it.

So it will be an uphill battle getting feed manufacturers to stop using soy. And don't think that changing to alfalfa is any better, alfalfa has just as many problems of it's own.

AS you know your pasture lysine level and can do the calculations, I'd definitely recommend using a pure lysine and staying away from a standard commercial high protein ration balancer.
Yours
MW

[meaty ogre]

Thanks Melyni. You know, that's exactly what another nutritionist told me, but when I opened their bag of soy-free alfalfa mineral balancer, it smells strongly of soybeans. Sure, I could be wrong, but I'm married to a farmer/grain dealer and I'm well acquainted with the smell of soy (and barley, and corn and wheat...)! I want to trust that all traces of soy are out but I just can't get past my nose. Maybe I need to get a bag from a different company and see if it still has the smell.

[Daydream Believer]

Interesting about the protein. Thanks for that tip Melyni. I still can't figure out why you need that dang much anyway in a RB even for a young growing horse if you feed good quality forage.

It sure seems like a lot more people than me are seeing problems. At first I was ready to blame the strange problems this summer on my obscure and rare breed...but not anymore. I'm still not convinced it's ONLY the protein that can cause problems as I have a lot of questions about soy and the compounds in it like phytoestrogens that no has really addressed but thank goodness there are some alternatives for us soy phobes to use!

Interesting also that soy is cheaper to use than other forms of protein. I was told that it was not "cheap" by a representative of a feed company. Somehow that didn't ring true to me considering it is a byproduct.

So what would you recommend someone use a base to carry the LinPro ration balancer? Plain oats or barley? I am using alfalfa pellets...not a lot..most are getting under 2 lbs of alfalfa a day. I have none showing any obvious problems. I can get grass hay pellets but it's much harder to find them. I appreciate any advice on that.

[3Spots]

Hi Melyni,

Thanks for your clarification to LMH. From what I read, then, your orginal statement that LinPro has MORE lysine than what is required by NRC is only true if you add a lysine supplement?

I have looked at LinPro, too, and was of the same opinion as LMH, that it is a nice supplement, but not really a RB because it didn't have enough in it to balance my hay diet out here. I have the new NRC and it looks like they have raised the lysine levels, as well.

I am currently feeding a soy-based RB, and not having any issues, but I find the soy information interesting.

jan

[Melyni]

Thanks Melyni. You know, that's exactly what another nutritionist told me, but when I opened their bag of soy-free alfalfa mineral balancer, it smells strongly of soybeans. Sure, I could be wrong, but I'm married to a farmer/grain dealer and I'm well acquainted with the smell of soy (and barley, and corn and wheat...)! I want to trust that all traces of soy are out but I just can't get past my nose. Maybe I need to get a bag from a different company and see if it still has the smell.

Hmm, some amino-acids (Lysine and methionine for 2) do have a strong smell and taste. Sometimes the smell we associate with say soy is actually from an ingredient in the soy, or from other things in the mix, but without smelling the aforementioned bag I couldn't say that what you were smelling was the lysine or the soy or something else entirely.
Might want to smell another bag and then go smell a bag of soy just to check.
MW

[Melyni]

Hi Melyni,

Thanks for your clarification to LMH. From what I read, then, your orginal statement that LinPro has MORE lysine than what is required by NRC is only true if you add a lysine supplement?

I have looked at LinPro, too, and was of the same opinion as LMH, that it is a nice supplement, but not really a RB because it didn't have enough in it to balance my hay diet out here. I have the new NRC and it looks like they have raised the lysine levels, as well.

I am currently feeding a soy-based RB, and not having any issues, but I find the soy information interesting.

jan

No, you an LMH are correct, I wrote in haste, it exceeds NRC requirement in several nutrients BUT not the lysine. So I am looking into raising the amount in it.

But it is a ration balancer because it brings up the essential nutrients, vits, minerals and essential fatty acids and essential amino-acids without extra things like non-essential amino acids and extra calories. It's just made on a differnt approach from all the others that are out there.
MW

[Melyni]

Interesting about the protein. Thanks for that tip Melyni. I still can't figure out why you need that dang much anyway in a RB even for a young growing horse if you feed good quality forage.

It sure seems like a lot more people than me are seeing problems. At first I was ready to blame the strange problems this summer on my obscure and rare breed...but not anymore. I'm still not convinced it's ONLY the protein that can cause problems as I have a lot of questions about soy and the compounds in it like phytoestrogens that no has really addressed but thank goodness there are some alternatives for us soy phobes to use!

Interesting also that soy is cheaper to use than other forms of protein. I was told that it was not "cheap" by a representative of a feed company. Somehow that didn't ring true to me considering it is a byproduct.

So what would you recommend someone use a base to carry the LinPro ration balancer? Plain oats or barley? I am using alfalfa pellets...not a lot..most are getting under 2 lbs of alfalfa a day. I have none showing any obvious problems. I can get grass hay pellets but it's much harder to find them. I appreciate any advice on that.


Hmm, I am a great believer in keeping things simple, so I would want you to use feeds that are readily available and easy to use. Alfalfa pellets are fine, esp if you not experiencing problems, if you do then you'll need to replace them with something else.
I always like oats, whole, rolled, crimped for horses, unless they are carb sensitive, in which case I would go with sugar beet pulp or grass pellets.

BUt I would suggest you just feed a bit more hay, use a hay feeder to keep it from being wasted in the mud. But on the whole hay is the best thing for horses, so give them a bit more and don't worry about any kind of grain.
Now if the horse(s) lose weight on the hay/alfalfa/LinPro diet then it's time to add in some more calories, for which I would use either SBP or Oats or rice bran, depending on what is easiest to get a hold of.

Horses really do do best on a high fiber diet, and it's only horses in hard work or who are growing rapidly that need the extra calories from grain.

Easy keeper horses like yours particularly don't need grain, their main calorie input should be from hay/grass with the LinPro just to make sure that the seasonal fluctuations of mineral and vitamin levels don't cause problems, and the essential amino-acids to boost the usefulness of the protein present in the hay.
Now alfalfa is also a high fiber feed, it happens to have high protein as well, but as it is pretty fibrous it is generally safe to use in reasonable amounts.

One way to know if you are giving too much alfalfa is if the urine output goes up. If that happens either reduce the alfalfa (less non-essential amino-acids that need to be dumped) OR increase the LinPro (more essential aa's to improve the use of the non-essential aa's from the alfalfa).

If the horse loses weight, or goes into hard work, then it's time to look at the calorie sources.
Yours
MW

[Daydream Believer]

Thanks for the advice Melyni. I am feeding good quality grass hay... timothy/orchard/brome and they do get plenty of it as well as a little pasture...but probably not enough grass to make much of a difference nutritionally. I have no horses having trouble with weight gain at all right now...not over or under. It's like everything went back to normal when I discontinued the RB they were on. Even foals that were too fat lost weight. It was remarkable. My thin mare has steadily and slowly gained and I do have her on a little oats with her alf. pellets and her LinPro.

Regarding young growing horses. I have been concerned that the hay pellets and Lin Pro alone might not be giving them enough protein and that my cal/phos feed was enough or in the right ratio. I can push it pretty fast to a 3:1 ratio with the alf. pellets...so I'm adding a bit of oats to counterbalance it. I'm curious what your thoughts are on that. Would whole flax or rice bran be a better choice than oats if I don't want the carbs from the grain?

I'll keep an eye on urine output also. I do know our breed has been fed alfalfa for many years by many ranchers without problems so hopefully there won't be any sensitivities there that I run into.

[Melyni]

Thanks for the advice Melyni. I am feeding good quality grass hay... timothy/orchard/brome and they do get plenty of it as well as a little pasture...but probably not enough grass to make much of a difference nutritionally. I have no horses having trouble with weight gain at all right now...not over or under. It's like everything went back to normal when I discontinued the RB they were on. Even foals that were too fat lost weight. It was remarkable. My thin mare has steadily and slowly gained and I do have her on a little oats with her alf. pellets and her LinPro.

Regarding young growing horses. I have been concerned that the hay pellets and Lin Pro alone might not be giving them enough protein and that my cal/phos feed was enough or in the right ratio. I can push it pretty fast to a 3:1 ratio with the alf. pellets...so I'm adding a bit of oats to counterbalance it. I'm curious what your thoughts are on that. Would whole flax or rice bran be a better choice than oats if I don't want the carbs from the grain?

I'll keep an eye on urine output also. I do know our breed has been fed alfalfa for many years by many ranchers without problems so hopefully there won't be any sensitivities there that I run into.

The alfalfa is the best way to address the balance of the Ca:P, but if you like what you are feeding otherwise, but are still bothered about the Ca:P ration then you could just use a tablespoonful of calcium carbonate, or 10 tums per day to provide a bit more Ca.

I like whole flax, and I would always add that before I went to a grain, flax has higher P than Ca, but the alfalfa has a LOT of Ca so if you used the flax no need to add anything. Rice Bran if it is the pellets or stabilized/balanced has already had Ca added so again no need to add anything.

Whole oats, again if you are using the alfalfa pellets as well would not not need any kind of Ca addition.
So you only need to add Ca IF you use the oats/flax and don't use the alfalfa.
Yours
MW

[Daydream Believer]

Melyni, I was more worried that my calcium was too high versus the other way around by feeding several lbs of alf. a day. How much flax would you feed to counteract a slightly high ratio of calcium?

Thanks!

[Equilibrium]

I also think horses are being fed too much protein as well. I'm feeding TB's mainly and my foals are on a few oats, stabalized flax, unmolassed beet pulp, and a little alfalfa chaff. I add a supp called Calphormin for growing youngsters too. They are doing wonderfully. And I thought they would loose weight and look terrible without all the high growing horse protein. Their joints are good and they look well. They have access to pasture during the day and free choice grass hay at night.

All my horses are eating less now but still maintaining weight and condition. I'm basing my feed on a fibre diet and adding extras when needed. We have very good hay this year so that is a help. I am still tweaking things here and there, but I am still learning as well.

I'm also hoping Melyni's company goes global!:)

Terri

[Melyni]

Melyni, I was more worried that my calcium was too high versus the other way around by feeding several lbs of alf. a day. How much flax would you feed to counteract a slightly high ratio of calcium?

Thanks!

You can have way high (like 10X the P) Ca before it becomes a problem, and you aren't anywhere near that. So I wouldn't worry at all. One of the joys of a high fiber diet is that the minerals are rarely way off. Unless the grass is way off, but that rarely happens on the East Coast. Your diet is fine.
Yours
MW

[Daydream Believer]

Thanks Melyni! :-)

[dwblover]

Wow, I am so glad that this has been brought up. My sweet gelding has turned into a lunatic, and I mean LUNATIC since arriving at our new barn. It's progressively gotten worse over the last eight months. Guess what he has been eating? Buckeye ultimate finish which is comprised of soybeans and rice bran. He was there for about three months before we started him on that. He was fine. Then after starting the ultimate finish, he just seemed to go crazy. I don't even ride him anymore, we just lunge. I kept thinking that his behavior change started when that feed change ocurred, but thought I must be crazy since the ultimate finish has no starch or sugar really. I even tried a full course of gastrogard to see if ulcers might be the cause. No change whatsoever. I am definitely going to take him off of it and see if I can get my horse back.

[Rodeio]

Quick update on my gelding who has been soy free for almost six weeks: I firmly believe there is something to this. This horse was almost retired this summer because I could not keep him in consistent work. Now I have been having the best rides ever on this horse. So different, more relaxed, less tense, not tight and unbending, an absolute joy to ride. I am having so much fun I am considering riding through the winter, which in the land of ice, snow and below zero temps could be interesting!

[jaimebaker]

Quick update on my gelding who has been soy free for almost six weeks: I firmly believe there is something to this. This horse was almost retired this summer because I could not keep him in consistent work. Now I have been having the best rides ever on this horse. So different, more relaxed, less tense, not tight and unbending, an absolute joy to ride. I am having so much fun I am considering riding through the winter, which in the land of ice, snow and below zero temps could be interesting!

I love reading these updates. I will be switching my horses off of their soy based ration balancer over the next couple of weeks. I had my docile gelding absolutely lose his mind yesterday in the round pen just because the wind blew a little. He also drops his back down when being brushed (like his skin hurts...another thing I have read soy causes). I have a mare whose eyes have been running for the last year even though I have had 3 vets tell me nothing is wrong with her. I have been ground training two horses for longer than I care to admit just because I felt they weren't ready to move forward (spooky, etc). The whole time they've been on this soy feed. I hope I'm not looking for miracles here, but I REALLY hope I see some changes when they come off of it. Especially with that mare's eyes:(

[jaimebaker]

Well I called Purina today and the Enrich 12 does indeed have soybean meal in it. It's actually the third ingredient lumped into 'grain by products' which is what it reads on the tag. So, oats it is, I'll just be soaking them:(

[prairiewind2]

Well I called Purina today and the Enrich 12 does indeed have soybean meal in it. It's actually the third ingredient lumped into 'grain by products' which is what it reads on the tag. So, oats it is, I'll just be soaking them:(

Wow. That's really deceptive, since soybean isn't a grain, it's a legume. Deliberately deceptive and misleading, it seems to me. :eek:

Liz

[Daydream Believer]

You gotta love Purina! They have the worst labeling of any feed company!

[jaimebaker]

Wow. That's really deceptive, since soybean isn't a grain, it's a legume. Deliberately deceptive and misleading, it seems to me. :eek:

Liz

Well, I actually asked her if it was in the vague terms like 'grain by products, roughage products, etc' and she said yes so I may have just misquoted and lumped it into grain products (was in a hurry when I posted and wasn't sure). The issue I have is 'grain by products' is the first ingredient. Roughage and plant products are further down the tag (quite a bit further down the tag). Except she said point blank it's the 3rd ingredient. Alfalfa meal, wheat middlings, soybean meal was the order. Kind of ticks me off actually.

[prairiewind2]

Wel Kind of ticks me off actually.

Don't blame you!

"Grain by-products" isn't very confidence-inspiring. And the only grain you mentioned in that list was wheat. Alfalfa's a legume, too. So you have two legumes and one grain so far...

Liz

[jaimebaker]

Don't blame you!

"Grain by-products" isn't very confidence-inspiring. And the only grain you mentioned in that list was wheat. Alfalfa's a legume, too. So you have two legumes and one grain so far...

Liz

That's what I don't get. She listed off the ingredients and said they had been given specifics because of the 'vague' terminology on the tags and people calling asking questions about it. How can grain by products be listed first when as you said, Alfalfa and soybean are legumes? If wheat middlings is the second ingredient and we do a law of averages....oh what the hell. I'm just mad about, I thought I'd found the perfect replacement feed. Bah humbug. And I agree that it's sneaky. She went on to tell me that soybean meal is such an excellent protein that they use it in most of their feeds and the ones they don't use it in they use soybean oil in for fat. I know I might be overreacting, but reading a lot of soy threads I found myself nodding in agreement. There are some things that my horses have been going through since they've been on this feed that are odd and have never happened before (before they went on the soy RB that is). I've had sore feet that were never sore before (horse only wanted to be worked on soft grass, not on dirt), a mare's eyes have been running ever since she went on it, mares lactating that weren't pregnant, horses scared if a leaf blows, skin sensitive to being brushed, and the list goes on. These are things that have NOT been normal in the past. At this point I hope there's a connection and I get my horses back to their old selves. If I pull them all off of it, and nothing changes then I'll know they were fine on soy and can maybe put them on something else besides just oats. But if I make some connections then what's it gonna hurt?

My brain is actually hurting from all the vitamin supps I've been looking into today to balance out there soon to be oats diet. :eek:

[meaty ogre]

jaimebaker, I can totally comisserate. I'm married to a feed dealer and still nearly tore my hair out looking to develop the soy-free diet for my horses. Soy can be hidden in a lot of places. Distillers dried grains are leftovers from distilleries for things like alcoholic beverages and ethanol plants. Because these leftovers vary a lot in composition, many mills will add things (for example, if the distiller's grains come in very dry and light, they might not go through the pellet mill very well, so they may add something...could be soy...to make it more "pellet-able"). It is very frustrating. Also, some mills do not keep seperate storage areas so cross contamination can occur.

I ended up having my husband mill me my own special mix. That's not always an option for everyone (though my hubby mills special mixes for lots of customers, but he can't just make a few bags at a time so you'd have to be prepared to take a large lot of the stuff if you can find a mill that will do this).

Your best bet is to stick with companies who make a few specialized products so that there won't be the confusion and cross contamination worries. Melyni from Foxden posts on here and has a soy-free product that many rave about. There's also Equipride/equilix that are soy free.

I had to cut my horses treats out because they all contained soy. I also had a hard time finding a mineral mix to complete my feed that was free of soy. And then I had to find flavoring that was soy-free. I called one company and was amazed to find it was in their molasses mix! The stuff if ubiquitous! Just look at your own food labels sometime.

Anyway, to me, it has been totally worthwhile. My horses are on a very high fiber diet, and their fecal composition has changed dramatically. It comes out almost as compressed hay balls, and it breaks down much better than when they were previously on a diet including grain. I know a lot of you are scratching your heads at this point, but if you have a small acreage and manure management is a priority, you understand how great this is! :)

One final change that I'm not sure if I noted before, is that not only has my aggressive gelding mellowed out, he sleeps recumbent every day, at about the same time, and for a much longer time than I've seen him do so before. He was always like one of those perpetual motion toys...constantly moving, herding the other horses, just basically worrying himself and everyone else to death. I always used to wonder with him if he was getting sufficient sleep/rest and if that was part of his problem. And because he rests more now, the rest of the herd can too, and the fact that they can be turned out together is huge.

One thing that allergies and autism have in common is intestinal leakage. Some moms (Jenny McCarthy is the most famous) claim to have "recovered" their children from autism and autism spectrum disorders by following a strict diet. There is a lot of controversy surrounding some of the stuff that she says, especially the dangers of vaccination, but I do think that there is something of value to be learned by this if the equine nutrition industry would be willing to spend the money to do some research. Just like there are phenylketonourics, people with celiac's, those who can't tolerate gluten, wheat, dairy, etc, I do think that many horses can have a hard time with soy (or other ingredients, for that matter).

[Daydream Believer]

jaimebaker, I can totally comisserate. I'm married to a feed dealer and still nearly tore my hair out looking to develop the soy-free diet for my horses. Soy can be hidden in a lot of places. Distillers dried grains are leftovers from distilleries for things like alcoholic beverages and ethanol plants. Because these leftovers vary a lot in composition, many mills will add things (for example, if the distiller's grains come in very dry and light, they might not go through the pellet mill very well, so they may add something...could be soy...to make it more "pellet-able"). It is very frustrating. Also, some mills do not keep seperate storage areas so cross contamination can occur.

I just don't "get" why our horse feeds have to be so full of byproducts. Is it because it's "cheap?" We sure aren't being charged for "cheap" particularly for the RB's that are full of soy which is also a byproduct. I'd love to see feeds made for horses from top quality WHOLE ingredients...not byproducts of another industry..just once. I would expect to pay a premium price for that obviously.

Soy's wide usage in horse products and people products is frightening to me. It has the properties of a drug in the phytoestrogens and can be used as such for hormonal uses. It has so many other "issues" like the toxins and phytic acid that are seemingly ignored by the food industry...yet what effects are these "antinutrients" having on us or our animals for long periods? Plenty of human studies link to negative effects but the total lack of long term horse studies concerns me a lot. Soy is in everything from mayonaise to chocolate to candy. You can't hardly avoid it.


One thing that allergies and autism have in common is intestinal leakage. Some moms (Jenny McCarthy is the most famous) claim to have "recovered" their children from autism and autism spectrum disorders by following a strict diet. There is a lot of controversy surrounding some of the stuff that she says, especially the dangers of vaccination, but I do think that there is something of value to be learned by this if the equine nutrition industry would be willing to spend the money to do some research. Just like there are phenylketonourics, people with celiac's, those who can't tolerate gluten, wheat, dairy, etc, I do think that many horses can have a hard time with soy (or other ingredients, for that matter).

I do have Celiacs Disease and I personally have experienced just how much your health can be messed up by an ingredient that you do not tolerate or cannot digest well. I also really wish we could get someone to do serious studies on soy in horse feeds. I really did believe at first I had an isolated incident with my horses but I don't think so any longer.

On the phytic acid in soy. This is copied from Weston Price's soy page:

High levels of phytic acid in soy reduce assimilation of calcium, magnesium, copper, iron and zinc. Phytic acid in soy is not neutralized by ordinary preparation methods such as soaking, sprouting and long, slow cooking. High phytate diets have caused growth problems in children.

We have a young WB on our farm that was on the RB when he came. He remained on it until we pulled our horses off and his owner chose to stop feeding it to him at that time. He had had surgery for a bone cyst the year before and had been chronically lame for months and months and had very little improvement over the summer.

No sooner did we pull him off the soy feed and put him on a mainly forage based diet with some oats, he started to improved in his soundness to where a few months after the feed change, he is now sound. His owner is very happy with that and she'd nearly given up hope. He also showed a temperament change to the better with the removal of soy.

I can't prove a connection but how weird is that? Then I read about the phytic acid and those minerals. It does make you wonder. Obviously it might have been a coincidence but what if it wasn't?

I keep hearing about how well the RB's work for growing horses but I've not seen any studies shared with the public on it at all. I did ask to see data from safety studies from the company who made the RB my horses had trouble with and I was ignored. I never got to see any safety studies. I'd love to see that information as well as real statistics showing a decrease in developmental problems with these products. I'm not convinced it is so just because we are told that it is.

[BornToRide]

Originally Posted by jaimebaker http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=3648749#post3648749)
Wel Kind of ticks me off actually.
Just reading the label again the other day at a client's place who has a Cushings mare and a TB gelding with frequent abscessing issues ticked me off enough already. It could be more non-specific really :rolleyes:

As with many things, it is usually best to keep it as simple as possible. Processed feeds may be convenient to feed, but they are often not the best feed to use. Simple , unprocessed low NSC is generally best for most horses.

[prairiewind2]

My brain is actually hurting from all the vitamin supps I've been looking into today to balance out there soon to be oats diet. :eek:

:lol::lol:

I can sympathize! I research all sorts of things for my cats, dogs, horses and husband. Vitamins, minerals, supplements of all kinds, diseases, treatments, etc. etc. Hurts my head, but you can't trust anything these days. We are our own best advocates.

Liz

[jaimebaker]

:lol::lol:

I can sympathize! I research all sorts of things for my cats, dogs, horses and husband. Vitamins, minerals, supplements of all kinds, diseases, treatments, etc. etc. Hurts my head, but you can't trust anything these days. We are our own best advocates.

Liz

Oh my goodness, I have a whole spreadsheet thing going about how long what will feed 6 horses and if I split how long it will feed 3 (if I try two different ones). And how much cost is per day, per month, etc. It's not that I'm cheap, I'm just trying to compare it to what I have been feeding ($27 per bag soy RB). It's still going to be cheaper to do multi-vitamin and oats though. I just want my pasture ornaments to be healthy.

[prairiewind2]

Oh my goodness, I have a whole spreadsheet thing going about how long what will feed 6 horses and if I split how long it will feed 3 (if I try two different ones). And how much cost is per day, per month, etc. It's not that I'm cheap, I'm just trying to compare it to what I have been feeding ($27 per bag soy RB). It's still going to be cheaper to do multi-vitamin and oats though. I just want my pasture ornaments to be healthy.

Wow! You're definitely more organized than I am! I'm afraid to figure cost per day - I don't want to know. :lol:

So the animals get what they need, and if we have to put off the furnace another year...well, so it goes. ;)

Liz

[BornToRide]

Trimmed two horses yesterday, a regular client, one Arab mare and a rescue perhaps QH cross. The younger QH cross has always been rather jumpy and snorty, despite no grain and grass hay only. Just makes no sense. She's lived there now for over a year and yesterday she spooked at something we could never figure out, other than the Arab mare coming slowly around the corner to the gate. Thankfully she did not slam on my foot with the hind I was working on.

I asked to the owner what supplement she is using and it is Platinum Performance which of course also contains soy. I advised her to try Equipride instead to see if that makes a difference. I will keep you posted - hopefully this will do the trick :)

[Equilibrium]

Hi All,

Another "off soy" person checking in. As we are always worried about quality protein content talk to me about grass/hay pellets. I found a good grass pellet which is 16% protein. The contents are 99% dried grass and 1% molasses. Now I know we have to be careful of sugar, but I don't think 1% is a deal breaker. They are a bit hard so I have to soak them. They get this with a bit of unmolassed beet pulp, flax, and vits and mins. I found a nice all around supp which is soy free and is for young stock, mares, and horses in competition. Less doasage is good for horses at rest, ect. Oats are alright for some of my guys, but not all of them need them which is why I sourced grass pellets.

I also stumbled across a company in England called Simple Systems. When I looked at their products I was amazed because they sell grass pellets, 2 types with different proteins. They do flax and the rest is fibre based feeds. My only problem is trying to get them over here. It's quite expensive to get it shipped. But at least someone is thinking of other ways to run a feed company.

At any rate, are these grass pellets a good source of quality protein? At the moment they may get 3pds per day total as they just don't require much feed. So with the hay, are they getting enough protein?

Oh and I do feed costs broken down by day as well. I think with feed and supplements we are talking slightly less than 1 euro per day. Not too bad!

Oh, forgot to add. My broodmare with the constant sore feet is back to being barefoot and having absolutely no problems. I never thought that would happen. I use to blame the fact she had flat feet with her soles nearly on the ground, but apparently that's not the case.

Terri

[BornToRide]

Oh, forgot to add. My broodmare with the constant sore feet is back to being barefoot and having absolutely no problems. I never thought that would happen. I use to blame the fact she had flat feet with her soles nearly on the ground, but apparently that's not the case.
Thanks for sharing this - yet another horse that was obviously affected by the diet. It is so common, I wish most horse owners and professionals would finally "get" this! :yes:

BTW, this QH cross mare also tends to have the more sensitive hooves. She will react faster to rocks, while the other mare never does. This is probably another clue that she cannot tolerate something she is getting in her diet.

[Equilibrium]

This happened by accident as she lost a shoe about 4 days ago. No blacksmith of course til tomorrow. So we took the other one off ourselves and I thought well she'll be wincing coming in every night over the hard pebble ground, and now frozen ground, and the concrete. But actually, nope not a wince out of her. And this year I got fet up looking at her struggling in while pregnant, it was nearly a cruelty issue. And she struggled while not pregnant as well. My blacksmith was always very good at letting a good callouse form on her sole because she has such flat feet, but nothing worked.

My husband has been keeping quiet on my little experiments because he assumes it's going to cost us nothing but money when I start fiddling with food, but even he can't believe the changes in this mare. Now I can't wait til breeding season to find out if she catches normally instead of being the hard breeder she has become. I've done a biopsy, different tests, ect. Everything normal but no explanation as to why she can't get in foal.

Ok sorry for yammering on.

Terri

[BornToRide]

My husband has been keeping quiet on my little experiments because he assumes it's going to cost us nothing but money when I start fiddling with food, but even he can't believe the changes in this mare. Now I can't wait til breeding season to find out if she catches normally instead of being the hard breeder she has become. I've done a biopsy, different tests, ect. Everything normal but no explanation as to why she can't get in foal.

Yes, I'd love to hear about this - please keep me posted. I know that soy is high in phytoestrogens as well. That alone may be a factor :yes:

[Daydream Believer]

Hi All,

Another "off soy" person checking in. As we are always worried about quality protein content talk to me about grass/hay pellets. I found a good grass pellet which is 16% protein. The contents are 99% dried grass and 1% molasses. Now I know we have to be careful of sugar, but I don't think 1% is a deal breaker. They are a bit hard so I have to soak them. They get this with a bit of unmolassed beet pulp, flax, and vits and mins. I found a nice all around supp which is soy free and is for young stock, mares, and horses in competition. Less doasage is good for horses at rest, ect. Oats are alright for some of my guys, but not all of them need them which is why I sourced grass pellets.


Terri

Hi Terri,

I don't know that I can answer your question yet on the protein quality question. I suspect you are probably OK but if you are worried, you can supplement Lysine and other essential amino acids. I'm enrolled in Dr. Kellon's NRC Plus course now and learning about these things and hope at the end to be better prepared to balance a diet from scratch.

My feeling is that horses lived for millenia on grass, some legumes/seeds and some grain. They managed to evolve without soy and that "quality" protein. Now granted truly wild type horses are a far cry from TB's or modern breeds, but up until recently horses did well enough on old fashioned feeds like COB and hay. I have to think that people are way overreacting to the problem. I don't believe it's so bad that we need someone to sell us a $30 bag of feed to solve our problems. I know my own Col. Spanish horses, to include two WB's I board and several horses of other breeds are doing quite fantastic with alfalfa pellets, oats as needed, a good supplement and grass hay....better than when on the $30/bag feed.

I'm tickled to hear about your mare doing so much better with her feet too! I really did find a deterioration of hoof quality all around to include horses that seemed to do OK on the soy product. Even my stallion had WL separation and I've never seen anything like that with him in the five years I've had him. Now, hooves are going back to normal also. It's neat to see everyone return to normal.

[BornToRide]

My feeling is that horses lived for millenia on grass, some legumes/seeds and some grain
There are no cereal grains in the wild as they are fed to horses now. Any 'grains' from wild ancestor plants they may have gotten is really neglible and would have also been geographically rather limited.

[jaimebaker]

Well, my horses have been completely off of their Soy RB for 10 days now (spent 12 days gradually switching them to beet pulp). I have one mare that I've been rather concerned about. Since she's been on the RB, she's been ouchy on her feet, her eyes have been running since last year (and 3 vets can't find anything wrong), she's lactated the last two springs, and her throat has felt a bit hard and swollen (I'm assuming thyroid). A few others had a bloated look (pregnant looking geldings and such).

So, just a week out I am noting some changes. I have two mares that are losing weight in a bizzare fashion (not alarmingly fast or anything(. Their lower bellies look lumpy. Like they are losing patches of fat at a time. Hard to explain that one but they aren't sore or acting weird. My mare's eyes aren't running any more than usual and since switching her to Beet pulp she has been off of her antihistimine (so either it wasn't working, or maybe they are getting better). Her throat is significantly softer and I can't feel that hard lump I had been feeling. So far it's about 50/50. I've got 3 horses I am noting some changes in and 3 that I can't tell anything yet. But with just a week being on straight BP, I am not expecting miracles. I'm more shocked I'm seeing any changes at all so quickly.

The mare that has all of the issues though is getting Grand Hoof pellets which does have some soy in it (though it's way on down the list of ingredients). So, I may eventually switch her to a different hoof product with no soy and see if she may just be THAT sensitive to it. I finally got in a vitamin supp that doesn't have soy in it. I have two (the two I was least worried about) on Mega Cell which has soy in it. So, right now it's a wait and see thing but I AM seeing some things changing. Even though the weight loss can just be due to the now skimpy pastures.

[Daydream Believer]

So, just a week out I am noting some changes. I have two mares that are losing weight in a bizzare fashion (not alarmingly fast or anything(. Their lower bellies look lumpy. Like they are losing patches of fat at a time.


Yes, I know what you mean...very lumpy and odd. My girls looked like they had cellulite and when they lost it it was uneven like you noted. How interesting!

Good luck and let us know how they do!

[Daydream Believer]

There are no cereal grains in the wild as they are fed to horses now. Any 'grains' from wild ancestor plants they may have gotten is really neglible and would have also been geographically rather limited.

No, I realize that but in the form of seeds, they did eat some grain. Clearly it was not the mainstay of their diets. :)

[jaimebaker]

Yes, I know what you mean...very lumpy and odd. My girls looked like they had cellulite and when they lost it it was uneven like you noted. How interesting!

Good luck and let us know how they do!

Oh my goodness, I'm so glad to hear that! I was pretty alarmed earlier this week when I first noticed it. I was watching one of my mares eating hay and their was a big lump in the center of her belly (where her umbilical cord would have been). Looked like she had kicked herself (when they kick at flies int he summer time is what it made me think of). I checked her, pushed on it and she never acted upset. And this is a mare that will snap if she has an owie and you poke it:eek: Two days later I noticed the other mare looked the same way. Oh yeah, and two of the my horses that looked bloated the bloat is going down. They still look fat if you view them from the side, but when viewed from the front or behind they no longer look like they are due to foal. REALLY odd stuff.

[BornToRide]

Yes, I know what you mean...very lumpy and odd. My girls looked like they had cellulite and when they lost it it was uneven like you noted. How interesting!

I know one mare that looks that way who is on feed products that contain a lot of soy. :(

[jaimebaker]

I know one mare that looks that way who is on feed products that contain a lot of soy. :(

I wonder if the fat pockets grow in lumpy (and perhaps we don't notice them off the bat) and then eventually smooth out with that weird bloated look. And then when they begin to 'deflate' (for lack of a better term) they lose it in patches? Just kind of talking out loud here but it's one thing that really caught my attention this week.

[Daydream Believer]

Oh yeah, and two of the my horses that looked bloated the bloat is going down. They still look fat if you view them from the side, but when viewed from the front or behind they no longer look like they are due to foal. REALLY odd stuff.

Bloated is a good way to describe how most of mine looked also. I suspect they are retaining water to some degree as mine lost it very quickly also at first and unevenly.

I really wish someone would research soy in horse feed particularly in the quantities so many are feeding now we have the RB's and low starch feeds. I'm simply not convinced what we are seeing are rare reactions.

[BornToRide]

Bloated is a good way to describe how most of mine looked also. I suspect they are retaining water to some degree as mine lost it very quickly also at first and unevenly.


I think they are - eating a diet that is higher in starches and sugars than what can be tolerated changes the body's PH level to more acidic, when it should be more alkaline. The body then retains fluid to reduce the acidity. My gelding always had this bloated look when he was still on grain - it was about 2 lbs per day and that grain contained soy as well.

Bodybuilders eat a lot of sugar before events, because it makes their muscles pop more! I think that's also the reason why they look so inflated.

[jaimebaker]

Ya know, this might not have a THING to do with it but something else I thought of. I have an 8 year old chestnut stallion that developed 3 sarcoids within the first 6 months of being on the RB. That could TOTALLY be a coincidence. I got some salve online that got rid of the smallest and got most of the big one gone, but I thought about that the other day. I've had many grays with sarcoids and melanomas before but was slightly shocked to see it on my chestnut (although I know they can occur on all colors). Again, probably doesn't have a thing to do with it, but it was also something 'odd' that happened after the RB was started.

[bluemoonfarms]

It is amazing how much soy is added to ordinary foods you'd never suspect like a loaf of bread or a prepared Hormel beef tips meal! I also am cooking much more for myself now. We buy our beef locally and I'm seriously considering getting my own chickens and raising them for eggs and meat. A hog I'm a bit more leary of as they are a PITA to have around but I'm sick of supporting factory farming also...so that may end up happening also.

You might want to try buying your meat from a local 4 H Auction. They have a couple of them at the fairs in the fall in my surrounding areas. You buy the animal and they send it to the processor and you pick it up from there. It is great for the kids and they usually use the money towards college. The rules are very specific as far as no hormones and medications are used only if necessary. It is a win win situation for the 4-Hrs and the buyers. :)

[BornToRide]

I thought you might find this link interesting as well:
http://thyroid.about.com/cs/soyinfo/a/soy_3.htm

[fivehorses]

what is RB?

[BornToRide]

I believe this is ration balancer

[BornToRide]

Has anyone also observed a connection between soy and muscle stiffness and do any of you here who experienced issues with soy have used soy containing Dynamite products ?

[Equilibrium]

Has anyone also observed a connection between soy and muscle stiffness and do any of you here who experienced issues with soy have used soy containing Dynamite products ?

Well without scientific data, couldn't tell you for sure, but one of Stella's daughters had this unbelieveably hard neck from the time she was nearing 2 years of age. Terribly stiff and rock hard. My vet said sometimes certain TB lines have this disposition. That helped. Anyway she had been on and off stiff and sore for most of her life and hasn't really done much. Vet came out to do a complete soundness exam and really found nothing out of the ordinary with regards to a specific problem. He just basically said she wasn't a great mover and to do some stretches with her before riding. Also suggested working long to start and even do cantering around the arena before we started working on balance, ect. He said never mind the trotting til she gets warmed up. Totally arse backwards, but it did seem to help. His explanation, she was bred to jump fences over 4 miles in the roughest of ground. And for that job, he didn't think her way of going was a hinderance.

Anyway, she's had off since September when we moved. She will be starting back in the new year as a 5yo. This also matched the time we switched the diets. Her neck is more flexible than it's ever been and not rock hard anymore. My husband was saying something about Heidi this morning and I said I'm just annoyed she's such a crap mover. He said "Ter, she's so much better since you took her off that soy crap!" Which she is, but for him to say as much was like a miracle. He thought I was overreacting when I first went on this crusade. Anyway, Heidi is a full TB and I don't know where the bad movement came from. I would assume her dad as mom is a lovely big loose mover. She's his future hunting horse as he sold his other one this fall.

So maybe yes. I know she was born and raised on nothing but soy really.

Terri

[BornToRide]

My gelding used to get Dynamite vitamins. Once in a while I would run out for 2 - 3 weeks and each time I would notice that he seemed to move better when worked. He seemed loser in his body. At first I thought I was imagining things, because it was so subtle , but after the third or fourth time I though perhaps it was connected to the supplement in some way.

At the time I suspected the grains more than anything, as they are used as a carrier and never thought that perhaps the soy was the main culprit or at least a major contributor. That caused me to stop the Dynamite vitamin supplement and he no longer has those issues.

He also flew higher than a kite on the PGR , plus developed mild EPSM symptoms on that. But I had stopped giving him that some time ago, while continuing with the vitamins.

[stuge]

This soy thing is interesting. I don't know if any of you saw my post in the dressage section about my friends horse that has been rearing bad lately but I've been thinking about telling her to change his feed but I'm not sure what. She is on the blue seal sweet feed which I am sure has soy in it as well as a high amount of sugar and starch.

So what would you recommend starting with? what do you add if the horse needs more calories? She is already feeding very good grass hay, typically either orchard or timothy. No grass really, this time of year.

[BornToRide]

In such cases I would do free choice hay or add some alfalfa, but only IF the horse tolerates it well. You can add up to 20% of the overall forage as alfalfa and should not have any problems, but even that can be too much for some.

She could also use rinsed and soaked beet pulp without molasses.

[BornToRide]

I thought you migt be interested in this story too - Mustang mare. Usually very sweet but can be a bit dominant. However never charged a human. She tried to kick a women on Sunday, after the lady had given her a treat and also tried to charge me, when I corrected her later that day after trimming. This is what the owner shared with me today:


I need a recommendation for something that I can mix with my mare's supplement that is does NOT have soy in it.

I went ahead and bought the "Safe Choice" because, I reasoned, that the
small amount that I would mix in with her supplement every day (12 oz.), would not adversely affect her behavior. I think I made a big mistake.

Remember her bad behavior toward you and earlier Sunday, how she charged the lady and turned and kicked her in the arena???
Well, tonight, while she was eating her supplement mixture, I started
petting her neck, like I always do, and she pinned her ears. I yelled at her and slapped her neck for it and then she really pinned her ears and started to rear. I was on the other side of the electric tape, but that doesn't stop a flying hoof, for sure.

I was ticked, to say the least. I think the soy in the "Safe Choice" is causing her mood flare-ups. I'm taking her off of it, but I need something to mix her EquiPride Supplement with. She will not eat it all by itself.

If you have any suggestions, that doesn't take a bunch of time to prepare, I would greatly appreciate it!!!

Thank you :))>,
~M

[Melyni]

I thought you migt be interested in this story too - Mustang mare. Usually very sweet but can be a bit dominant. However never charged a human. She tried to kick a women on Sunday, after the lady had given her a treat and also tried to charge me, when I corrected her later that day after trimming. This is what the owner shared with me today:

Interesting as the anecdote is it really does not prove anything about soy protein and behavior.

But what to do:
Read the ingredient list on the feeds and find one that does not have a lot of soy in it. I'd suggest sugar beet pulp (if you can find it) or grass cubes as the filler for her feed.
If you need a protein supplement without soy PM me and I can give you some suggestions.
Yours
MW

[BornToRide]

She's using hay pellets as a carrier now. We'll see if that changes anything.

[yellowbritches]

Wow. This thread has been very insightful. Let me bounce these two horses off of you guys and see what you think.

First horse was very reactive and naughty/borderline dangerous. He is imported from NZ, and after someone mentioning that NZ/Australian horses don't tend to get heavily processed feeds but eat things like oats or COB, I decided to experiment with this horse and put him on straight oats...and a RB to balance everything out. He IS better, but he's still pretty reactive. Could it be the RB? He is an upper level event horse, so has high calorie demands, although right now, he isn't galloping. He gets about 3lbs of oats right now, about 1,5lbs of RB (Enrich 32), and a really nice timothy/alfalfa mix. Am I missing the boat here with something? He's not an easy horse, but I just feel like he's a whole lot harder than he needs to be.

The second horse is my 5 yr. old TB. He's got some skin allergy issues, one of which I am fairly certain is beet pulp (strange, I know, but we had no issues pre-bp based feed, lots of issues on it, and less issues once he was off it again). He's got various sensitivities and issues that flair up now and then. I do need to do a real allergy test, I know. But I'm wondering now if his issues aren't inhanced by his feed...Strategy. Thoughts??

I don't want to blame all our horses various silly issues on what they eat, but I can think of most of our horses and think of something we deal with them that someone has also mentioned that went away once soy was out of the picture. Very interesting.

[Oakstable]

Just drop the RB and see what you've got.