REALLY weird going down hill

[pj]

A friend bought a horse a couple of years ago for trail riding. He is doing something that I find really odd. We know the horse is straight in the stifles but other than a lump at the bottom of the hock (front of leg) the vet hasn't found anything. When not under saddle this horse moves fluidly and freely, beautiful to watch. When we are trail riding when he walks each step in the front he drags his toes lightly across the ground. If she collects him he doesn't do that. Doesn't drag the toes on pavement. The thing that worrys me is she has always said she didn't feel safe on him going down hill. He goes very slowly and takes little bitty steps. Yesterday she called me to stop and watch her coming down a steep hill that had roots growing across it. That blinking horse wasn't picking up his front feet at ALL. Of course his feet were catching on roots and it's a wonder they didn't come down head first. She then gathered him up and he started picking up his feet but the right front was sorta paddling as they came down. Never seen anything like it. I wouldn't ride that horse. I think he IS unsafe. She hasn't had xrays done but she said Vet did hoof testers with no reaction. Does any of this ring a bell with anyone? Give any indication where a problem might be? She thinks he's just lazy but, gosh, would he risk falling just because he's lazy? I think there is something wrong with him and wouldn't ride him until I found our for sure myself. I feel really bad for her as she paid a PILE of money for this horse and she does love him. He's sweet as pie but she hasn't felt safe on him since the day she got him. That can't be fun.

[3Spots]

Well, my older guy, who took very slow, careful steps downhill, was arthritic in the hocks. I never noticed him not lifting up his fronts and he didn't trip, but he was slow. (I actually thought that was a plus, compared to running downhill, so I didn't mind going slow and zig-zagging or dismounting where I could).

Could it be the hocks, and this guy doesn't want to unweight his front end and put the weight on his hind becauses they hurt?

[bit-o-honey]

A couple of thoughts -

Your friend could ask her farrier to square off the front feet and trim the toe back a bit more. If the horse is shod, there are horseshoes with a rounded edge that helps the horse's hoof break over more easily.

If the horse has any discomfort in his hind end, for example hocks or stifles, he may be trying to unweight his hind end going downhill, putting more weight on the front feet and is unbalanced. Her vet could do flexion and other tests to see if this is the case.

When going down a steep hill I sometimes put the reins in one hand and reach behind me with the other hand and grab onto the cantle of the saddle. That way if the horse does trip and go down in front, you are able to keep from pitching over his head! If you have to scramble down a steep bank into a creek this works great.

[GilbertsCreeksideAcres]

Did she have his blood checked for vitamin/mineral deficiencies? Also maybe test for EPSM?

[kung fu buckskin]

Just a few thoughts about your friend's horse.

If it were my horse, first I'd check saddle fit first and especially saddle fit of the horse with the rider in the saddle. Also - and no criticism of the position of the rider intended as I haven't seen the rider - but if the combination of saddle fit and the saddle putting the rider in an unortunate physical position is causing this, it's a fairly easy fix though perhaps with the cost of new tack not an inexpensive one!

Secondly, I'd maybe look at shoeing/trimming issues and strategies. It is helpful to video the horse both mounted and at liberty at various gaits and then review the video in slow motion or even freeze frame to pick up motion abnormalities or idiosyncracies; it's even more helpful if the farrier is willing to watch the video too. I guess I'm lucky that my BF, a retired prosthetics/orthotics professional (human style) is a complete geek on gait analysis for every living creature and can spot an irregularity missed by most - and he knows pretty much how to cope with it! Can't take him to shows, though - he gets too mad about the lame and potentially lame in the ring.

Finally - how old is this horse? Sometimes an older horse has some degenerative joint disease issues which can be helped by joint supplements and - oh, I know I'm going to be bashed for this but here goes - use of rounded leather straps fitted at the foreleg pasterns which move just a bit along the margin above the coronet band as the horse moves; it is a gentle reminder to pick up forefeet. This is not a training device like gaited horse rattlers but rather something sort of akin to TTouch wand stroking and tapping of the lower forelegs and hooves. No, I'm not a TTouch practitioner, just found these methods to be very helpful with an older gelding that had some stumbling and toe dragging issues.

It is hard to think of being unable to trailride with a relaxed rain, after all the whole idea is to mosey along with everyone enjoying the companionship of horse, human and nature! But for a horse with gait abnormalities, regardless of the cause, balance changes sometimes dramatically between collected and relaxed work. If the owner paid a great deal for the horse (and/or is deeply bonded) it would be worth doing some analysis of why the horse is moving oddly on different terrain and perhaps doing some basic flatwork, mounted and unmounted, as a sort of physical therapy.

Good luck, it is disappointing and challenging when these situations occur!

[pj]

Did she have his blood checked for vitamin/mineral deficiencies? Also maybe test for EPSM?
She did have blood work done when she got him and it showed him to be a bit anemic so they put him on red cell. No test for epsm though. I'll suggest to her that they check for this. Thanks.

[pj]

Just a few thoughts about your friend's horse.

If it were my horse, first I'd check saddle fit first and especially saddle fit of the horse with the rider in the saddle. Also - and no criticism of the position of the rider intended as I haven't seen the rider - but if the combination of saddle fit and the saddle putting the rider in an unortunate physical position is causing this, it's a fairly easy fix though perhaps with the cost of new tack not an inexpensive one!

Secondly, I'd maybe look at shoeing/trimming issues and strategies. It is helpful to video the horse both mounted and at liberty at various gaits and then review the video in slow motion or even freeze frame to pick up motion abnormalities or idiosyncracies; it's even more helpful if the farrier is willing to watch the video too. I guess I'm lucky that my BF, a retired prosthetics/orthotics professional (human style) is a complete geek on gait analysis for every living creature and can spot an irregularity missed by most - and he knows pretty much how to cope with it! Can't take him to shows, though - he gets too mad about the lame and potentially lame in the ring.

Finally - how old is this horse? Sometimes an older horse has some degenerative joint disease issues which can be helped by joint supplements and - oh, I know I'm going to be bashed for this but here goes - use of rounded leather straps fitted at the foreleg pasterns which move just a bit along the margin above the coronet band as the horse moves; it is a gentle reminder to pick up forefeet. This is not a training device like gaited horse rattlers but rather something sort of akin to TTouch wand stroking and tapping of the lower forelegs and hooves. No, I'm not a TTouch practitioner, just found these methods to be very helpful with an older gelding that had some stumbling and toe dragging issues.

It is hard to think of being unable to trailride with a relaxed rain, after all the whole idea is to mosey along with everyone enjoying the companionship of horse, human and nature! But for a horse with gait abnormalities, regardless of the cause, balance changes sometimes dramatically between collected and relaxed work. If the owner paid a great deal for the horse (and/or is deeply bonded) it would be worth doing some analysis of why the horse is moving oddly on different terrain and perhaps doing some basic flatwork, mounted and unmounted, as a sort of physical therapy.

Good luck, it is disappointing and challenging when these situations occur!

Saddle fit was the first thing I thought of but <g> she told me right quick it wasn't the saddle.
Lucky you having a bf like that. Wish I did but guess my old husband would fuss about it.
This horse is appx. fifteen and I'll pass your idea of the leather straps on to her. She has just ordered joint suppliments for him. Should be here Monday. Thanks.

[pj]

A couple of thoughts -

When going down a steep hill I sometimes put the reins in one hand and reach behind me with the other hand and grab onto the cantle of the saddle. That way if the horse does trip and go down in front, you are able to keep from pitching over his head! If you have to scramble down a steep bank into a creek this works great.

Great idea. Wish I'd been doing that once when coming down a steep hill and my horse stepped in a rotted tree hole up to his knee. Probably wouldn't have gone over his head so ungracefully.

[abbydp]

Is it possible he has been nerved?

[Elfe]

How long has he been doing this ?
Is it possible his front feet were nerved before she bought him ?

[pj]

Well, my older guy, who took very slow, careful steps downhill, was arthritic in the hocks. I never noticed him not lifting up his fronts and he didn't trip, but he was slow. (I actually thought that was a plus, compared to running downhill, so I didn't mind going slow and zig-zagging or dismounting where I could).

Could it be the hocks, and this guy doesn't want to unweight his front end and put the weight on his hind becauses they hurt?

I'm wondering about hocks, too, and she may just have to bite the bullet and have him throughly vetted. Think she's afraid of what she'll find out.
LOL 3spots I'd rather go down slowly with a horse with a problem, too, but if there is no problem I really feel safer getting on down the hill. Not running but always felt that the longer each foot stayed on the ground more chance of slipping. Where we ride we do tend to have red clay that is very slippery when wet.

[pj]

NERVED!!!! YIKES never even thought of that! How do you tell? That would be awful.

[kung fu buckskin]

Well, sometimes what looks like a great saddle fit changes with a rider in the saddle and does so especially if the rider is put in a less-than-optimum position in the saddle. I used to teach sidesaddle (as well as hunt, dressage and saddleseat) and with sidesaddles even more than cross saddles the smallest fit and balance issues coupled with the addition of a rider's weight - however properly or improperly s/he rides - is startlingly magnified in the horse's gait. If it were me I'd look pretty closely at how the saddle fits while she is actually riding and look for pressure points at the withers, behind the withers on the spine, at the loin area and especially at the back part of the large shoulder muscle.

Someone else had the suggestion of shoe changes and I second the rolled toe idea - not half round shoes as IMO those are dangerous on both trails and hard surfaces and really only safe in an arena with manicured footing, though I know others disagree with this, it's just my own idiosyncracy about these. I'd also go with a wide web shoe set "full" and I would have the farrier dub the back toes just a bit and perhaps add short trailers on the hind shoes for a little additional support.

As far as joint supplements, the one I found best for older horses (and I think I must have field tested everything on the market at one time or another, well I sure with I had that discretionary income back!!!) is synova-cre. This stuff is hard to find and is not inexpensive especially if you buy it from the vets who seem to be mostly the ones who stock it. Second choice would be nu-flex maximizer with Ester-C - and darned if I don't suspect that it's really the Ester-C that is the key ingredient! No proof of that, just a hunch. But I found both of these to be extremely effective on the older horse, more so than many other popular joint support products.

Best wishes for this horse, it sounds like everyone is willing to go the extra mile to help him attain full (safe) use.

[pj]

Well, sometimes what looks like a great saddle fit changes with a rider in the saddle and does so especially if the rider is put in a less-than-optimum position in the saddle. I used to teach sidesaddle (as well as hunt, dressage and saddleseat) and with sidesaddles even more than cross saddles the smallest fit and balance issues coupled with the addition of a rider's weight - however properly or improperly s/he rides - is startlingly magnified in the horse's gait. If it were me I'd look pretty closely at how the saddle fits while she is actually riding and look for pressure points at the withers, behind the withers on the spine, at the loin area and especially at the back part of the large shoulder muscle.

Someone else had the suggestion of shoe changes and I second the rolled toe idea - not half round shoes as IMO those are dangerous on both trails and hard surfaces and really only safe in an arena with manicured footing, though I know others disagree with this, it's just my own idiosyncracy about these. I'd also go with a wide web shoe set "full" and I would have the farrier dub the back toes just a bit and perhaps add short trailers on the hind shoes for a little additional support.

As far as joint supplements, the one I found best for older horses (and I think I must have field tested everything on the market at one time or another, well I sure with I had that discretionary income back!!!) is synova-cre. This stuff is hard to find and is not inexpensive especially if you buy it from the vets who seem to be mostly the ones who stock it. Second choice would be nu-flex maximizer with Ester-C - and darned if I don't suspect that it's really the Ester-C that is the key ingredient! No proof of that, just a hunch. But I found both of these to be extremely effective on the older horse, more so than many other popular joint support products.

Best wishes for this horse, it sounds like everyone is willing to go the extra mile to help him attain full (safe) use.
Thanks! I will be passing all information to her.
Yes, she will do what she has to do to help this horse. She loves him and he'll have a home however it turns out. She's really hoping it can be fixed as she's like me, old, retired
and hoping the horses don't get All of our money before we die. She's already got one ancient horse with a good many special needs standing there and really doesn't want two just standing and have to add a third.
I appreciate everyone's thoughts and so will she.

[Alexie]

My lad has always been slow and picky going downhill in walk, right from breaking as a 3 year old.
I think his conformation makes it difficult for him to carry weight downhill

even if i just lead him down the hill he likes to go slow (ETA he's so awkward going downhill i prefer to lead him rather than ride)

I take this horse for dressage lessons with a lovely and knowledgable trainer who would let me know in seconds if my horse were lame or stiff at all

he failed flexion tests as a 4 year old when vetted but has never had any problems or lamess apart from bruised feet.

he's been seen by a chiro and all is well there


so i guess it's just the way he is made - he's such a nice horse i can put up with it though

I hope your friends horse is ok :)

btw my horses full brother has a shiver, and i put my horse on the EPSM diet as a precaution and he has improved in a lot of ways, fitness, weight, alertness, stamina

but his strange down hill walk hasn't improved

[Simkie]

Problems going down hill can also be caused by neuro issues as well. Do you live in an area that has EPM?

[pj]

Problems going down hill can also be caused by neuro issues as well. Do you live in an area that has EPM?
I have never known of anyone with that problem but I imagine so. Am going to suggest that be checked, too.

[Lieslot]

Well, I have 2 identical looking Euroriding saddles, one is a wide the other a narrow-medium.
One DUH morning, mind occupied with other things, I tacked up my one 'wide' horse and accidentally put the medium saddle on him.
My warm-ups consist of 20 minutes uphill/downhill walking.
I just didn't understand why my horse suddenly kept stumbling going downhill, nearly going onto his knees.
Where I often give him a slack-ish rein when walking, I was shortening my reins collecting him, but he was really stumbly going downhill.
Only when I was in the ring did I suddenly realized I had put my other horse's saddle on!

So I'd say 'do' check saddlefit. Has she tried walking him downhill bareback? Definitely worthwhile a try. If he does it bareback too, then you at least know for a fact it's not saddle-related!!

[pj]

Well, I have 2 identical looking Euroriding saddles, one is a wide the other a narrow-medium.
One DUH morning, mind occupied with other things, I tacked up my one 'wide' horse and accidentally put the medium saddle on him.
My warm-ups consist of 20 minutes uphill/downhill walking.
I just didn't understand why my horse suddenly kept stumbling going downhill, nearly going onto his knees.
Where I often give him a slack-ish rein when walking, I was shortening my reins collecting him, but he was really stumbly going downhill.
Only when I was in the ring did I suddenly realized I had put my other horse's saddle on!

So I'd say 'do' check saddlefit. Has she tried walking him downhill bareback? Definitely worthwhile a try. If he does it bareback too, then you at least know for a fact it's not saddle-related!!
Good idea. Thanks. I'm going to "make" her try that. Would be a good first thing to check.
LOL cheapest, too.

[irishcas]

I would like to see pix of the feet as well. I have had a few clients who had horses who couldn't go down hill very well. Feet were returned to a more healthy state and now horses cruise down the hills.

Just a thought amongst all the other suggestions :)

Regards,

[BornToRide]

If this horse is shod, I would pull his shoes to see if that improves things because shoes take away quite a bit of feeling or proprioception in the hooves. He may also be too tight in his shoulders which is also often caused by incorrect trimming and shoeing and another reason to try this horse bare, if he is not already, just to see if that does the trick. Won't take long to see.

If he's anemic, I would consider possible ulcers as well.

[katarine]

Oh my this is not what a nerved horse does on trails to suggest so is talking out of your hat :lol:
I'd be more inclined to think it's sore hocks or stifles back or 2 out of 3 or all.

Saddle pinching the pee out of the shoulders, maybe.

[kcmel]

My guess is stifles. My horse with weak, straight stifles has a lot of trouble going downhill when he's not fit. I try to zig zag and not take him straight down. How fit is this horse?

[spaghetti legs]

First of all... calm down.

Going downhill is really difficult!

How is the rider's position? Is she leaning forward trying look at his feet as he's going down hill? Because that's really going to throw him off balance. The rider's spine needs to be aligned with the trees on the hill - straight up.

GIVE THE HORSE HIS HEAD AND LET HIM CHOOSE HIS PACE AND PATH. This is the safest option.

It is possible he is a little arthritic in his hocks.. He could be trying to sit back a little and shuffle with his front feet on the uneven surface... HAVE YOU EVER TRIED TO CLIMB DOWN A HILL WITH AN UNEVEN CRUMBLY SURFACE - YOU DON'T PICK YOUR FEET UP ONE AFTER THE OTHER EITHER - YOU KIND OF SHUFFLE TO KEEP YOUR BALANCE.

Your friend should consider giving her horse a break and getting off and leading him down the hills. There is no shame in this - Endurance riders do this ALL THE TIME to save their horses.

I really do think people tend to over-react with these kind of issues that can be solved by looking at how the person is riding in the first place. - The horse is sound at liberty and according to the OP moves freely and well. It really does sound like he has some confidence issues with going down hills. Get off and lead him.

[Altamont Sport Horses]

My horse has been doing this when she isn't going downhill. I thought hocks but when the vet flexed her it wasn't the hocks it was the stifle and scored 3/5. We have to x-ray it now. The thing is that any particular problem in the body is going to cause the horse to move differently and make them uncomfortable elsewhere. It makes it difficult to find the original offending problem. I could even see it being due to SI pain or weakness making the horse unwilling to use it's back end properly unless really urged to.

If it was my horse I would have a string of people take a look starting with a massage therapist which helps to identify muscle pain/tightness and get them loosened up before the next pro...a good chiropractor. With some adjustments if the horse does not improve I would have a vet take a look. I had the chiropractor out here to work on a injured horse and went ahead and had another horse looked at that has never been started under saddle but I had a feeling that something was NQR because he hasn't been moving with as much reach or impulsion. His back was so sore that the chiro thought I was riding him too hard. :no: He's young and has never even had a saddle pad on his back. I had a vet trained in chiro out to check on him on Friday and all his back soreness is gone since that one adjustment. He had a few issues in his cervical spine but otherwise was great.

[Druid Acres]

I'd recommend getting x-rays of the front feet. Problems going down hills can be an early sign of ringbone (arthritis of the coffin/pastern joint).

[pines4equines]

I would second or is it third saddle fit. I was so in denial about saddle fit. And, my horse had a problem with down hill especially. Lots of tripping as well with his hind feet.

After she has ridden him, take the saddle off and check for sweat patterns. Any dry spots can indicate pinching or bridging. I'm no expert but before you call the vet and spend all kinds of money, have your friend (if she's okay with it) ride bare back down the hill. If there is a difference, well that could be your answer.

[Moonstruck Acres]

I would check all the other suggustions but you also may want to check out my web site http://www.moonstruckacres.com/Shadow.html - it may be something to keep in the back of your head. I went throu the same thing as your friend.

Louisa

[doublebridle]

[I]["/When we are trail riding when he walks each step in the front he drags his toes lightly across the ground. If she collects him he doesn't do that. Doesn't drag the toes on pavement. The thing that worrys me is she has always said she didn't feel safe on him going down hill. He goes very slowly and takes little bitty steps. Yesterday she called me to stop and watch her coming down a steep hill that had roots growing across it. That blinking horse wasn't picking up his front feet at ALL. Of course his feet were catching on roots and it's a wonder they didn't come down head first. She then gathered him up and he started picking up his feet but the right front was sorta paddling as they came down. Never seen anything like it."I]][/B]

Your description indicates the horse has balance and co-ordination issues dependent upon the positioning of his neck when in motion. Another way of saying this is that sometimes the horse doesnt seem to know or care where his feet are. The weird paddling of the right front might also be described as a form of ataxia. It is possible the horse has an issue that causes a dynamic compression in his spine, which is why you are only seeing the symptoms under certain conditions, such as walking on the trail with neck strung out, going down hills, etc. I dont think its the saddle because it sounds like the horse improves when the rider collects the horse. I'm sorry to suggest it, but I'd schedule this horse for a neurological exam, specifically looking for signs of arthritis in the cervical vertebra, wobblers disease, epm, etc.

[pj]

Thank You All for the thoughts, suggestions and insights. I haven't had the time to respond to each and every one but am reading (and making a copy of the posts so I won't forget anything.) and passing them on to my friend. We rode together Sunday and kept her horse mostly in front (he usually brings up the rear as he's so slow) and he did do better but she said she was worn out from keeping him "pushed up". As long as she does that he seems to do fairly well. She said it still felt really weird going down hill but it didn't look all that bad. I DON'T think her saddle is a really good fit as it looks, if nothing else, to be a bit long for him. But she seems to think it's not bothering him and she uses a thick thick pad. It's some kind of rubbery stuff that the horse sweats like crazy under so you can't get a clue of sweat pattern. She rides western.

[spaghetti legs]

Sounds like he's overtired.

[wateryglen]

How old is the horse.?? Sounds like hocks to me. The classic arthritic hock thing is that they take small steps down hill and kinda "pogo-stick" their hind legs to go down. They bounce a lot cuz their hips are trying to accomodate the up/down motion because they don't wan't to flex their hocks. It helps to condition horses for hill work too. Unfit horses don't go downhill well too.

She could always try a dose of bute before a hill ride to see if it makes a difference. I use nsaids for myself so why not!!!?!!

[little sue]

Please have the horses eyes checked. The older horse I ride is blind in both eyes due to uveitis and has great difficulty going downhill. It began when his one eye was affected. Their depth perception is affected by sight problems.

[nightsong]

When a horseis going downhill, an ill-fitting saddle -- ESPECIALLY one too far forward (as MANY MANY MANY people put them) or too tight, is going to REALLY press. A horse is going to move as little as possible, including tiny little steps and trying to not move th shoulder by not picking up the feeet much, to minimize the PAIN.