Hind Leg Twisting?? Lameness/weakness/shoeing/conformation???

[flyracing]

I'll try to describe it as clearly as possible. At the walk, in a straight line, my horse's right hind lands, and while on the ground does about a 1/8th turn to the outside, then the leg is picked up and the process starts all over again. It just doens't look right and there is a clicking sound with each step. He had his regular hock and pastern joint injections about 6 weeks ago. He is 1/10 lame in the rh on a circle to the left only.

Any ideas, experiences, or suggestions??
PS vet didn't really have much of an answer, so I'm posting to see if anyone has experienced this.

[TrakGeorge]

I'll try to describe it as clearly as possible. At the walk, in a straight line, my horse's right hind lands, and while on the ground does about a 1/8th turn to the outside, then the leg is picked up and the process starts all over again. It just doens't look right and there is a clicking sound with each step. He had his regular hock and pastern joint injections about 6 weeks ago. He is 1/10 lame in the rh on a circle to the left only.

Any ideas, experiences, or suggestions??
PS vet didn't really have much of an answer, so I'm posting to see if anyone has experienced this.

Ummm, they always twist thier feet on the ground when moving, actually we do to or else we would break/hurt ourselves. Watch other horses walk from behind and then go back and watch yours. Does it twist worse than the other foot or compared to another horse?

[catzmom]

Sometimes when our horse's stifle hangs, she'll put that foot down a little differently.

[SBF]

It just sounds as though he has a rotating hock. It's quite common and not a problem at all, as long as you only see it occur at the walk.

Edited to add that "rotating hock" is just a term to describe the motion. It's not actually the hock joint itself that is rotating, it's the whole leg. :)

[pricestory]

I drive, not ride so I see the back legs pretty well. My pony has more rotation with the right than the left hind. I can't see it at the walk but can at the trot.
She has never been uneven but does get a sore back from time to time. I use acupunture/chiro to keep her feeling her best.

[marta]

friend's arab has an extreme twisting motion with his hind legs. i've never heard of a rotating hock. i'll have to mention that to her.

[JB]

Ummm, they always twist thier feet on the ground when moving,

No, they don't always twist ;)

It can be related to conformation, to hock soreness, to stifle soreness, to a trim imbalance, and others.

Whether you try to correct it with shoes HIGHLY depends on the cause. If it is conformation, trying to "fix" it will make his hocks pay for it.

[BornToRide]

The clicking comes from tight tendons stretched over a joint (thanks to overly tight muscles they are attached to) when they slip over that joint during movement The twisting is often caused by muscle imbalances in the hind leg that should be explored by a bodyworker. The clicking sound would to me be a confirmation of such a problem.

I see it in many horses, with or without hock or hoof issues.

[Laurierace]

The hock joint itself can not twist from side to side unless all the ligaments are blown. What you see as the hock going side to side is actually coming from the stifle.

[Watermark Farm]

My TB gelding does this. He's having hind end lameness right now and is weak behind, and I've noticed that he does the twisting thing more than he used to. He only twists at the walk. I had the vet and chiro both look at it and they said it was fairly common.

I had a bodyworker out to work on him and she shed tremendous light on what is going on with his body, muscle-wise (including the twisting). It's reminded me to pay much more attention to the muscles instead of just focusing on skeletal issues. Jack Meagher's book "Beating Muscle Injuries for Horses" is really hitting home right now. The twisting that's gotten worse on one side is due to some severe muscle spasms, and it improved after just a few minutes of work.

[Blinkers On]

It just sounds as though he has a rotating hock. It's quite common and not a problem at all, as long as you only see it occur at the walk.

Agreed, hocks.

[flyracing]

Born to ride: We have a chiropractor in our area but sadly he's not iconvincing me that it does any good (makes about every other horse sore for 3-5 days or longer). I think your talking about a different kind of body work though? What kind of person should I look for: accupuncture, massage, other??
PS I do know there are very good equine chiropractors out there, just not here where I'm going to shcool!

So, if its a rotation at the stifle joint (and the vet said he had some "effusion" (or did they say fusion?) of the stifle joints indicated by mild fuild builup around the joint, could the rotation be in response to pain? Could stifle injections help? I don't want to ranomly inject joints, so how would the vet determine this (since they didn't indicate lamness from the stifle)??

[TrakGeorge]

No, they don't always twist ;)

It can be related to conformation, to hock soreness, to stifle soreness, to a trim imbalance, and others.

Whether you try to correct it with shoes HIGHLY depends on the cause. If it is conformation, trying to "fix" it will make his hocks pay for it.

hmmm, well. Guess you learn something everyday..... in this case that I have known lots of weird horses with twisting feet....but then again, I didn't know about twisting hocks either.....this is why I love COTH

[slc2]

It is true that some horses twist their foot a little bit while it's on the ground at a walk. That isn't likely to harm a horse and if a horse has a 'funny' way of going behind or is weak, a lot of trainers will advise taking the hind shoes off so they are free to do whatever sort of compensating they need to do, and it is true that forcing them to do something that's unnatural for them, by using a long trailer, a heavy shoe or a 'therapeutic' shoe could cause them problems or strain. That is a possibility. It's not always the case and therapeutic shoes can be helpful when used correctly.

But there is a big 'however' and a big limit to that. Twisting the foot on the ground or the hock twisting in the air isn't always something one ignores, and it isn't always 'okay'. If a horse is really altering his stride and changes his 'normal' way of going, or if this twisting motion is alot, or if it is so much that the hocks don't just describe something of a circle in the air at a walk, but also at a trot, it's not good, and it's not 'normal' and it isn't something one ignores. It isn't necessarily due to one specific part of the foot or leg - twisting of the foot on the ground or the hocks making a 'circle' motion in the air, can be due to lameness or pain in a number of areas from the foot up to the hip. This applies to twisting the leg in the air and landing it more under the body, twisting the foot on the ground, hiking up one hip, etc.

[Blinkers On]

As the hocks are something that the vet is already treating by injection, I would suggest that this is not a stifle or chiropractic issue.

[newrider]

I adopted an ex-GP jumper whose pelvic and back muscles on one side had atrophied quite a bit as a result of back injuries sustained while being improperly jumped and trained. His right hind would twist almost 70 degrees to the outside when he walked, but the issue was up in his hip/pelvis and even back area, not in the stifles or hocks. It was as if every bit of connective tissue had been torn up so badly in that right pelvic area that he simply didn't have the strength to keep the leg from rotating in such a severe way. I did a lot of physical therapy exercises to strengthen everything and essentially re-train him to walk without that severe twisting motion, and gradually he re-gained the strength and neuromuscular connections that allow him to walk properly now with just a normal/minimal amount of rotation like you see in most horses. He never had the problem at the trot.

[Dallasgreenie]

My horse has always done that when his pelvic goes out of wack. His pelvic goes out and his back left foot twists and he will cross canter to the left if I don't hold the outside rein and balance him. He has done this for three years.

[BornToRide]

Born to ride: We have a chiropractor in our area but sadly he's not iconvincing me that it does any good (makes about every other horse sore for 3-5 days or longer). I think your talking about a different kind of body work though? What kind of person should I look for: accupuncture, massage, other??
PS I do know there are very good equine chiropractors out there, just not here where I'm going to shcool!

So, if its a rotation at the stifle joint (and the vet said he had some "effusion" (or did they say fusion?) of the stifle joints indicated by mild fuild builup around the joint, could the rotation be in response to pain? Could stifle injections help? I don't want to ranomly inject joints, so how would the vet determine this (since they didn't indicate lamness from the stifle)??
Yes, I was talking primarily of massage or fascial release type work. Accupuncture might help too.

Effusiosn is fluid built up for some reason, usually because something is irritated. I don't think the twisting is not in response to pain, but is often a sign of musculo-skeletal compensation.

I think your horse would benefit most from massage work compined with specific muscle building exercises in the hindquarters. Usually it is the lateral muscles that need more strengthening so they are not so over powered by the medial muscles.

Although hoof form can potentially be a factor, I do not think it is the primary one, as I have seen this sort of twisting in a horse that gets trimmed correctly. However, he does not get enough body work, although he's getting now more than he ever had and is improved quite a bit.

[Karoline]

I'll try to describe it as clearly as possible. At the walk, in a straight line, my horse's right hind lands, and while on the ground does about a 1/8th turn to the outside, then the leg is picked up and the process starts all over again. It just doens't look right and there is a clicking sound with each step. He had his regular hock and pastern joint injections about 6 weeks ago. He is 1/10 lame in the rh on a circle to the left only.

Any ideas, experiences, or suggestions??
PS vet didn't really have much of an answer, so I'm posting to see if anyone has experienced this.


If the horse looks like its extinguishing a cigaret on the floor with its hoof you should have your vet look at your horse's patella, well you should have him check the patella anyway because the popping noise is a big hint. Here is an article on "sticky stifles" and the popping noise you are hearing. And, I would avoid lungeing and circles until you get this checked. Patella and stifles issues can be a pain to heal and can take a long time.

http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=10546

Q: I have a 7-year-old Thoroughbred I got off the track three years ago. I had my veterinarian come out when I first got the horse to investigate a strange popping sound I heard when he turned in a small circle. My vet told me it was in his stifles and told me to adjust his diet to reduce protein, work on conditioning, and it should improve. My dressage instructor has told me that he seems to be slightly off in the hind end and suggested I get it looked at again. I've decided to get another vet's opinion about what it could be. I would like to know what questions are most important to ask, what things should I expect the vet to do when he is examining my horse, and how to be sure that this time I get answers instead of more questions.
Jessica Shier, Saint Clair, Mich.


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A: Stifle problems are common in equines. Part of a complete examination would include a good set of nerve and/or joint blocks to isolate the gait deficit to the stifle joint. More often than not there are multiple areas of the leg causing pain. A systematic methodology for determining where the lameness is should be attempted.

Once the veterinarian identifies the areas of pain, performing appropriate diagnostic tests can further characterize specific causes. Conditions usually can be diagnosed with simple X rays or ultrasound; if not, a nuclear bone scan or magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) scan might be necessary.

In your horse it sounds like the classic upward fixating patella. "Popping" sounds from the stifle are almost always related to this phenomenon. There are three large ligaments the diameter of your finger on the lower aspect of the patella or kneecap. These ligaments are several inches long and run in a vertical direction. Sometimes the inside (medial) ligament gets hooked on the end of the femur.

When this happens the leg can lock in extension with the toe facing downward. In severe cases these have to be manually reduced. In my experience locking is less common than intermittent fixation, where the ligament "sticks" on the bone momentarily. When the ligament suddenly drops into a normal position, you sometimes can hear a dull "thud" sound. You can also see it easily at the walk when the patella pops into place. At the trot the hock can be seen snapping upward at the end of the stride when the patella is released from the femur. It is especially obvious when the horse is slowing down. An experienced clinician can easily diagnose fixation of the patella visually.

We commonly diagnose intermittent fixation of the patella in horses that have poor muscle tone. It is very common in horses just beginning training or those who have been out of training for some time. For these cases we advise improving the muscle condition of the horse, and most of the time they respond without incident. Exercising up hills or pulling weighted carts are a few methods recommended.

Conformation faults can predispose a horse to patellar fixation. Too little angle (straight) as well as too much angle in the conformation of the rear legs can be a factor. Cow hocks and base narrow conformation behind can also contribute. Expert shoeing to ease and square the breakover, plus providing heel support as needed, would be important considerations for treatment.

Upward fixation of the patella can also occur as a result of pathological processes in the stifle joint. On occasion, osteochondritis dissecans (OCD, a cartilage disorder characterized by the presence of large flaps of cartilage or loose cartilaginous bodies in a joint) lesions in the femur can be associated with this condition. Good quality X rays and an ultrasound examination are useful in the diagnosis. Treatments vary and range from joint injections to arthroscopic surgery, depending on the lesion.

Standing surgery can be performed to cut the medial ligament, and it will be effective in relieving the condition. However, the remaining two ligaments now are under more stress and can pull away from the patella, causing lameness. Therefore, we usually reserve this procedure for Minis, ponies, and horses that are not intended for performance.

Ligament splitting is an alternative option for performance horses and has been successful. The veterinarian performs this procedure with the horse standing, and it is an alternative if increasing the muscle tone is not effective. Other treatments include internal blistering of the ligament and intramuscular estrogen, both of which can be helpful in the hands of some veterinarians.

I hope this has been informational. Please remember your veterinarian has performed an examination on this horse and, for that reason, knows infinitely more about this case than anyone writing from afar.

[Hampton Bay]

I have seen a couple horses do that when the hind heels are not balanced. Pick up the hoof on the twisting leg and see if the heels are even. It is generally the inside heel that is high when the horse is twisting the hoof, if it is hoof related. Trimming the inside heel down if it is higher than the outside heel can solve the problem.

But I know nothing of any other causes. None of my horses twist the hinds, and the ones I have watched and then trimmed were fixed once the heels were even. Very small sample :)

[Thomas_1]

If a horse has bow hocked conformation or pain in the hock area it will develop a twisting or screwing motion as the foot touches the ground.

This sort of twisting action can in itself produce lameness over time and horses with bow hocked conformation are more likely to develop thoroughpin and bog spavin.

I'm presuming though that as the OP mentioned that the horse is having hock and stifle injections that there must be a known condition. What's wrong with it?

[Blinkers On]

Exactly. Hocks.

[flyracing]

Thomas, there is nothing major known to be wrong with the horse. He is a 12 year old performance horse and is more confortable with hocks and pasterns injected although never becoming lame unless flexed when he will be a .5 or 1. He hasn't had his stifles injected yet. If I said that it a typo and a I ment pasturn:).

I'm just trying to figure out if I need to be looking for another sports medicine vet to be looking at him or if I'm just being paranoid! I do think he is a touch off when the clicking leg is on the outside, but no one else sees any lameness (including vet).

[Thomas_1]

Thomas, there is nothing major known to be wrong with the horse. He is a 12 year old performance horse and is more confortable with hocks and pasterns injected although never becoming lame unless flexed when he will be a .5 or 1. I really don't understand this at all???? What's he being injected in his hocks with and why??? Does he have secondary joint disease??

He hasn't had his stifles injected yet. If I said that it a typo and a I ment pasturn:). You said

He had his regular hock and pastern joint injections about 6 weeks ago.

I'm just trying to figure out if I need to be looking for another sports medicine vet to be looking at him or if I'm just being paranoid! I do think he is a touch off when the clicking leg is on the outside, but no one else sees any lameness (including vet). So why's he being injected in his hocks then and why is he having problems on flexion???