$65,000????

[Blinkers On]

To stand Big Brown at stud?
No thanks, I can breed to a better horse entering stud for a fraction of that! Sheesh, you can breed to Midnight Lute for 1/3 of that. To dream the impossible dream

[Linny]

I wouldn't pay that for BB and his shredded feet bu I wouldn't give $10k for Midnight Lute either. He is huge and was very unsound through his career.

[texang73]

Yeah, I figured that they'd at least shoot for $100K for his stud fee (Derby winner and all that jazz)... but I agree that I wouldn't pay for even $65K for him...

[kcmel]

Yeah, I'm not seeing a lot of commercial appeal in Midnight Lute's pedigree.

[Blinkers On]

I wouldn't pay $6,500 to breed to BB. His pedigree is moderate and he is weak.
I would pay for Midnight Lute as I atleast have seen him daily and know he has trained superbly since leaving Del Mar. And though not a sensational pedigree, His babies will bring a buck if the even remotely look like him, and he does have 2 BC Sprints to his credit.

[DickHertz]

I just couldn't pay $65k for a horse with horrible feet and only decent breeding. He'll get a big book in the first year, but will be at $30,000 by his 3rd season at stud. The more I look at who he's beat this year, the less impressed I am - although he is a nice runner, not knocking him, but we're talking about his sire potential at a high price.

[DickHertz]

I wouldn't pay that for BB and his shredded feet bu I wouldn't give $10k for Midnight Lute either. He is huge and was very unsound through his career.

Most sprinters are this way...sprints are tougher on a racehorse's frame than 1 mile and a quarter.

[Blinkers On]

He does look like he'd gp long.. but that wold require breathing past 3/4 of a mile.
Still you'll be able to sell his kids for a year, maybe two. And the "gift" of the breeding industry goes on.

[Linny]

He's only managed 13 starts since July of 2005. I know sprinters are tough on themselves and especially if they are really big horses, but yikes. Between his soundness history and his conformation, I think I could find something better. His breeding is nothing to scream about. RQ was a nice horse and has been a decent sire but jeez, if he was that hot he wouldn't be in PA now.

[Blinkers On]

True enough, but the horse is spectacular looking. I just think he might be more worth while for the money. I have a friend that is being given a mare that made $500,000 for money owed him. He's wanting to go to Midnight Lute. He looks fantastic. And trains beautifully. And kicks home like a freak. (not a high selling point but) If he had been able to breath he might have been able to be more than a deep closing sprinter. People are stupid. So many want first year sires with hypothetical value. They sell until they prove they can't run. Sad but true.

[Glimmerglass]

In a related overhype news: the fee for Smarty Jones is now listed as "private," suggesting it has been slashed from $100,000 his first year.

Considering his first year runners are struggling to hit the board I'd assume they're having a hard time getting bookings.

[jennywho]

I heard from a reliable source that they were begging people LAST year to breed to Smarty so it's not much of a surprise.

I had two Smarty fillies at the farm this year and they walked the walk. Looked amazing and were really nice to work with. I am not counting him out until he's got a couple of crops of 3yo's running, but I do think $100k is excessive.

As a disclaimer I was not a fan of Smarty as a stud until I was around the two fillies so we'll wait and see.

As far as Big Brown goes, I wouldn't pay $6500

[abrant]

If he had been able to breath he might have been able to be more than a deep closing sprinter. People are stupid. So many want first year sires with hypothetical value. They sell until they prove they can't run. Sad but true.


HOLD UP HERE.

We are going to condemn Big Brown on the basis of poor feet and steroid usage but breeding a racehorse that can't BREATHE is aok??

I'm not taking a stand here because I don't want to spend all night typing. But seriously, if you're going to have standards, you need to have them across the board.

Breathing problems that couldn't seemed to be surgically fixed? Damn, I'll take the feet AND the equipoise...



(As an aside - if steriods made Big Brown from a horse with the talent of a cheap claimer to a GI winner... then I wonder what's up with all those cheap claimers out there running on Equipoise that can't seem to outrun the side of a barn?)

[regret]

In a related overhype news: the fee for Smarty Jones is now listed as "private," suggesting it has been slashed from $100,000 his first year.

Considering his first year runners are struggling to hit the board I'd assume they're having a hard time getting bookings.

I wonder what they are asking for a fee now?

[Manes and Tails]

Maybe Smarty produces late bloomers, his first crop's still two, right?

Big Brown shouldn't even be being bred. He ran on steroids, so we have no clue of his real quality and he has no hooves.

No hoof, no horse.

[Blinkers On]

I've been around a few Smarty babies, and would venture that they might be late bloomers.
Midnight Lute, like I said, I've seen him daily and heard him train. He doesn't make noise. He breaths well enough to be a force to recon with sprinting. His pedigree is moderate as well. BUT if I am looking for a first year stallion I'd rather pay $10,000 or $20,000 to go to Midnight Lute than $65,000 to go to Big Brown.

[abrant]

Midnight Lute, like I said, I've seen him daily and heard him train. He doesn't make noise. He breaths well enough to be a force to recon with sprinting. His pedigree is moderate as well. BUT if I am looking for a first year stallion I'd rather pay $10,000 or $20,000 to go to Midnight Lute than $65,000 to go to Big Brown.

A guy I worked for had bred to Roar several times and got some *really* fast horses... however... 3 out of 3 of them had serious breathing problems. 1 was a state-bred champion (stakes placed in open company against Coach Jimmy Lee), 1 was later claimed and has won well over $100k running on the east coast as an allowance horse, the other was a useful claimer until he got to the point where he would literally have mental breakdowns in the paddock because he was so terrified of running (he was the worst of the three, when it came time to retrain him he would roar at the lope). All three were out of painfully average mares and it was impressive the race record for those homebreds, but we would *never* have bred a mare back to him - there are plenty of stallions out there that won't leave you gasping at straws and paying for tie-backs.

Yeah, it's more forgivable to have a GI horse with a breathing problem, however he is going to have some 'average' babies that are going to be either worthless or a pain in the butt to keep running. Having a $10,000 claimer that you *know* is fast and can win but chokes up roaring half the time... kind of sucks. And those types of horses *certainly* aren't improving the breed for future generations.

Just like Big Brown's feet are forgivable *on him*, he's going to have some average babies that are $10,000 claimers with cruddy feet.

Really, the two things fall in the same bucket for me but as least bad feet, in this day and age are more managable than breathing problems if you have good people and money to throw at it.

[abrant]

Big Brown shouldn't even be being bred. He ran on steroids, so we have no clue of his real quality and he has no hooves.

Newsflash - Nearly every horse running in a state where steriods are legal are running on steriods.

I don't know how so many people got in their heads that Big Brown is the only racehorse in the world that has ever gotten a shot of Equipoise. :confused:

There are LOTS of trainers and owners out there that *wished* steriods worked as well as ya'll think they do.

Like I said before - there are tens of thousands of horses cheap $5000 claimers that have been running on steriods for decades and none of them have ever majikally become Grade One winners.

[Blinkers On]

A guy I worked for had bred to Roar several times and got some *really* fast horses... however... 3 out of 3 of them had serious breathing problems. 1 was a state-bred champion (stakes placed in open company against Coach Jimmy Lee), 1 was later claimed and has won well over $100k running on the east coast as an allowance horse, the other was a useful claimer until he got to the point where he would literally have mental breakdowns in the paddock because he was so terrified of running (he was the worst of the three, when it came time to retrain him he would roar at the lope). All three were out of painfully average mares and it was impressive the race record for those homebreds, but we would *never* have bred a mare back to him - there are plenty of stallions out there that won't leave you gasping at straws and paying for tie-backs.

Yeah, it's more forgivable to have a GI horse with a breathing problem, however he is going to have some 'average' babies that are going to be either worthless or a pain in the butt to keep running. Having a $10,000 claimer that you *know* is fast and can win but chokes up roaring half the time... kind of sucks. And those types of horses *certainly* aren't improving the breed for future generations.

Just like Big Brown's feet are forgivable *on him*, he's going to have some average babies that are $10,000 claimers with cruddy feet.

Really, the two things fall in the same bucket for me but as least bad feet, in this day and age are more manageable than breathing problems if you have good people and money to throw at it.

Roar is kind of a crummy example. He never won a Gr1. And not really been much as a sire. His babies never made much impact and one could say it was questionable as to whether he ought to have been bred. Earning far less than $500,000.
Midnight Lute perhaps equally as moderately bred. No argument there. BUT though he has been lightly raced has banked $2.6 million. And won Gr 1 races. He's run till he's 5. Sporadically, yes. But then consider how many horses Baffert goes thru by the age of 3, and the quality. Not to mention the lack of older horses in his barn. He is a 2 and 3 year old trainer. Very few last or are kept around as "older" horses.
He hits the ground solidly. Is a big good looking horse with 2 BC Sprint's to his name. Raced as a 5 year old. (throw the race at DM out for various reasons). You couldn't ask for a horse to do any better than he has since the end of DM. He always carries good weight. Has stood up to the Baffert style of training. Working in 46 and 58 consistently takes it's toll on a horse.
As a breeder (breeds to sell) with a moderate bank roll, looking for an affordable stallion to breed a black type producing mare, I would look toward a first year stallion that will be marketable with his first crop, and until they prove they can't run.
Like I said. I would rather a horse like Lute, than Brown. One gets a better resume, though both are abbreviated resumes, for the buck.
Unfortunately for the little guy who can't afford the top stallions, we look for a way to make a marketable product on a budget. And first year stallions fit the bill. And when it comes to $10, 20 or $65,000, I know where I would head if it came down to a choice between the 2.

[abrant]

Roar is kind of a crummy example. He never won a Gr1. And not really been much as a sire. His babies never made much impact and one could say it was questionable as to whether he ought to have been bred. Earning far less than $500,000.

Your lack of research is astounding.

True, he never won a GI, however he did win the GII Jim Beam Stakes and the GIII Swale Stakes, placing in the GII Lexington Stakes and the GII Withers Stakes. He did NOT win "far less" than $500,000. In fact he won $487,507. Which is kinda close to $500,000 ;)

As far as a sire... he is respectable (his 57% winners from starters puts him solidly above average, and he boasts an astounding $65k per starter in NA earnings with no far and away earner to mess up that statistic).

Midnight Lute perhaps equally as moderately bred.

Roar is NOT moderately bred. His dam is multiple graded stakes winning daughter of Northern Dancer and has produced four graded stakes winners (Roar, Yell, Blare of Trumpets, and Eastern Echo). His sire is FORTY NINER! (who has Distorted Humor as a credit to his ability to produce sires)

But I *still* wouldn't breed a donkey to him because I doubt that poor hinny could breathe!

The same case you made for Midnight Lute could also be made for Big Brown. Big Brown is a HELL of a horse until you look at his feet... and Midnight Lute is a HELL of a horse until you look at his breathing problems.

If you're going to look down on one in the breeding shed, you should look down on both. Breeding shouldn't be about the horse you have a personal affection for... it should be about producing horses that are a credit to the breed.

[ravenclaw]

In a related overhype news: the fee for Smarty Jones is now listed as "private," suggesting it has been slashed from $100,000 his first year.

Considering his first year runners are struggling to hit the board I'd assume they're having a hard time getting bookings.

I always thought $100,000 was too high for Smarty Jones. He was a good racehorse, but I would say his bloodlines are moderate. And it's not impressive that he didn't race again after the Belmont. So at $100,000, I'm not surprised that they were having a hard time getting bookings.

[Blinkers On]

Your lack of research is astounding.

True, he never won a GI, however he did win the GII Jim Beam Stakes and the GIII Swale Stakes, placing in the GII Lexington Stakes and the GII Withers Stakes. He did NOT win "far less" than $500,000. In fact he won $487,507. Which is kinda close to $500,000 ;)

As far as a sire... he is respectable (his 57% winners from starters puts him solidly above average, and he boasts an astounding $65k per starter in NA earnings with no far and away earner to mess up that statistic).



Roar is NOT moderately bred. His dam is multiple graded stakes winning daughter of Northern Dancer and has produced four graded stakes winners (Roar, Yell, Blare of Trumpets, and Eastern Echo). His sire is FORTY NINER! (who has Distorted Humor as a credit to his ability to produce sires)

But I *still* wouldn't breed a donkey to him because I doubt that poor hinny could breathe!

The same case you made for Midnight Lute could also be made for Big Brown. Big Brown is a HELL of a horse until you look at his feet... and Midnight Lute is a HELL of a horse until you look at his breathing problems.

If you're going to look down on one in the breeding shed, you should look down on both. Breeding shouldn't be about the horse you have a personal affection for... it should be about producing horses that are a credit to the breed.


Your defense of an admittedly bad stallion is astounding. I wouldn't breed a mule I hated to Roar, frankly. He is a bad stallion and since you so kindly outlined why, I don't need to delve further. His babies sell for what???? thousands???
If my lack of research is astounding, please feel free to inform me! Roar never won a Gr1. Which I stated. Placing in one isn't winning. And he did earn under $500,000. What exactly are you objecting to??
He has few runners that have accomplished much or earned much. He's not a stallion that you'd pay for when you can get as good or better or with the "unknown quality" of a first year stallion. People want breed to sell, not breed to "eat" at the end of the fiscal year. Well actually that's not true we can all afford some losses.
I'd rather breed to The Green Monkey than Roar. But he's not really part of this discussion.
Be aware that more often than not it is a breed to sell market as opposed to a breed to race market. Is it great for the game, likely not, but it allows the little guy to make some money if they do it well.
Big Brown freaked early in his career. You can breed to Boundary for under $10,000. Why pay $65 thou for a horse that was only able to run for how many starts??? who is by a stallion that only ran 8 times? Hot dog, where do I sign up!!!! Sweet God how many times did the mare run??? Oh ya, she ran twice with a whopping one win to her credit, and $14,000 in earnings. YES!!!!!!!!!!!! this a a pedigree we should be paying money for!!!!! People ought to be climbing over each other for a breeding! A bargain and a great thing for the industry! Gelding might be good for the industry. Just sayin'.
Like I said. Lute is as moderately bred as Brown, but he has his ability to overcome Baffert training which is hard to do. Yes lightly raced, but he's stepped up on the right days to make his first year crop interesting. And if they look like him, very sell able. Again, I would rather pay $20,000 tops for Midnight Lute than $65,000 for Big Brown.
They both have out run their pedigrees.
Midnight Lute was plagued with problems, but has overcome them when the time is right. Big Brown packs it in when the time is right.
I'd rather a horse that can win 2 BC sprints, overcome adversity (aka a 1/4 crack) and still show up when it counts. As opposed to a horse that can't overcome adversity (trip, jock, or 1/4 crack) who packs it in when looking eyeball to eye ball with greatness.
Color me silly, but at the end of the day, I will make money.

[Glimmerglass]

The flipside to a (potentially) very overpriced stallion like Smarty Jones is his rival Birdstone who was accomplished on the track with three Grade 1 wins. He will remain in 2009 at $10,000 which is just fine as that cheap date is yielding results.

Birdstone ranks 7th on the first crop sires list (by total offspring purse $$) (http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/breeding/freshman-sire-list.aspx?stallion_no=6215269) vs SJ's rank at 22nd; Birdstone has ten winners from just 22 starters. The most recent being today (11/2) with Livin Lovin (f) taking the Grade 3 Tempted Stakes (http://www.gainesway.com/news/default.asp?p=stallion#406)

[QHJockee]

I think the majority of studs in Kentucky are severely overpriced. My husband and I have both been around plenty of horses bred on modest stud fees ($10,000 or less) that have excelled on the track. Case in point, I got a $500 breeding to a first year no name stallion several years ago that managed at best to run 3rd in a grade III at keeneland. The result of that breeding recently surpassed $100,000 in earnings, the hard way. Sure wish I hadn't sold him!

Plenty of good studs in the $5000-$7500 range, or even less.

[Blinkers On]

Exactly we bred to Peaks And Valley's early on in his time at stud and the first foal won 3 straight races for us including the Stonerside at Lonestar.
After the first race we sold 1/2 of her for $100,000 and after the Stonerside she was sold for $650,000. She never hit the board again.
We always went to first year stallions, the next two died. one aborted at 9 months, and a yearling died in a barn fire in KY.
The next back to Peaks and Valleys, and then Steven Got Even.
They've treated us very well. AND we actually didn't breed to sell. We bred to race and we were able to capitalize and develop them and sell when they had racing value.
One doesn't need to spend obnoxious amounts of money to get a good and useful product.

[Calico]

Blinkers and Abrant, are you aware that ROAR is deceased?

From Brisnet:

Roar dies in Argentina

Argentina's 2004 leading sire, ROAR (Forty Niner), died last week from failing health at Haras La Esperanza in Argentina where he stood.

The 15-year-old stallion, out of Grade 2 winner Wild Applause (Northern Dancer), stood the Northern Hemisphere breeding season at Tom and Nancy Clark's Rancho San Miguel in California for $7,500. He had returned permanently to Argentina in June where he previously shuttled for four seasons after he was recently acquired privately by Raul Lottero's Haras La Esperanza. Roar did not cover any mares this season at La Esperanza.

The winner of the Jim Beam S. (G2) and Swale S. (G3) shuttled to Argentina for the first time in 1997 and stood through the 2000 Southern Hemisphere breeding season at Carlos Blaquier's Haras La Biznaga.

Roar sired 42 stakes winners and 22 graded stakes winners. In addition, he is the sire of nine Group 1 winners and seven champions -- many of them in Argentina -- and is the broodmare sire of Group 1 winners Stormy Vil (Bernstein) and Greco Tom (Shy Tom) as well as stakes winners Special Cheers (Concerto) and Ruge La Gata (Sir Cat). Through October 27, his progeny have earned purses totaling $21,675,973.

[Blinkers On]

Yes, I don't think either of us stated he was breeding a mare for us this year. He was just an example in a conversation

[Manes and Tails]

You misunderstand me.

NO horse should be running on steroids. Ever. I realize it's fair when they all do.

Besides, my real point stands. No hoof, no horse.

[regret]

I have a friend who was considering breeding to Smarty. They told her that they had a shareholder, that would sell his share for $40,000 but they were not certain if they would accept her mare.

[Blinkers On]

You'll never get an arguement out of me in reference to "no foot no horse."

[LaurieB]

I have a friend who was considering breeding to Smarty. They told her that they had a shareholder, that would sell his share for $40,000 but they were not certain if they would accept her mare.

The shareholder might sell his SEASON for $40,000 but it is highly unlikely that he would sell his SHARE, which is his actual piece of the horse, for that amount.

The times I've bought seasons from shareholders, the farm has not had mare approval and I believe that most, if not all, do not in that particular scenario.

[regret]

The shareholder might sell his SEASON for $40,000 but it is highly unlikely that he would sell his SHARE, which is his actual piece of the horse, for that amount.

The times I've bought seasons from shareholders, the farm has not had mare approval and I believe that most, if not all, do not in that particular scenario.

I have to wonder what he bought his share for and if that is why the stud fee is private.

[Glimmerglass]

The flipside to a (potentially) very overpriced stallion like Smarty Jones is his rival Birdstone who was accomplished on the track with three Grade 1 wins. He will remain in 2009 at $10,000 which is just fine as that cheap date is yielding results.

Birdstone ranks 7th on the first crop sires list (by total offspring purse $$) (http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/breeding/freshman-sire-list.aspx?stallion_no=6215269) vs SJ's rank at 22nd; Birdstone has ten winners from just 22 starters. The most recent being today (11/2) with Livin Lovin (f) taking the Grade 3 Tempted Stakes (http://www.gainesway.com/news/default.asp?p=stallion#406)

Giving credit where credit is due: Nov 5th Smarty Jones added 1 more winner to his tally bringing it to 7 ... then again so too did Birdstone ;)

BloodHorse 11-6-08 "Don't Look Back" (http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/maidenwatch/archive/2008/11/06/don-t-look-back.aspx) - P. J.'s Canary (Birdstone), Rockland (Smarty Jones), and Clash of Arms (Speightstown) came out running to break their maidens in front-running style.

P.J.'s Canary (Birdstone) won by more then 6-lengths in Churchill Race 2 over the favorite. Putting Bidstone's stats at 11 wins from 21 starters.

[MidnightHill]

I always thought $100,000 was too high for Smarty Jones. He was a good racehorse, but I would say his bloodlines are moderate. And it's not impressive that he didn't race again after the Belmont. So at $100,000, I'm not surprised that they were having a hard time getting bookings.

I agree. Smarty was WAY over priced when he entered stud. To me him and Big Brown have the same credentials - maybe Big Brown has more since he actually ran after the Belmont. I think that $65,000 is too much for BB in todays market - I would have thought in the $30,000 range he would have been extremely accepted. I believe that that is where Smarty also belongs until his get have run more.

It will be interesting to see what kind of book Big Brown gets. I have an appointment to view him in a month - I cant wait to see what he looks like up close.

[grayarabs]

Another way to look at this for BB: if they put a lower fee on him - 30k or below - that does not "look so good". It is like the higher the fee - the better the horse. A low/er fee for BB would be kind of an embarassment.

[LaurieB]

Big Brown will fill his book easily at $65,000. He's a big, gorgeous, Kentucky Derby winner for starters. Add to that the fact that both IEAH and Paul Pompa are going to be supporting him with mares. Three Chimneys isn't going to have any difficulty selling the remaining seasons.

[Blinkers On]

. He's a big, gorgeous, Kentucky Derby winner for starters. .

And that really sums it up. One sentence. Yay breeding industry! Kudos!

[Frog]

I don't know, 65,000 doesn't sound bad to me, if you have the money. It's always speculation before the first crop hits the track! So it's a gamble, as always. Or business as usual, depending on where you're coming from. Multiple Grade I winner that by the accounts I've seen here is great-looking? He won the greatest race in the world! Yeah, so his feet aren't great. But he did manage to win those graded stakes, and looked great doing it. I think most of us can agree that we wouldn't pay that stud fee. But we certainly don't have to, and most of us couldn't if we wanted to. If there are buyers, then the price is right. Something is worth what someone is willing to pay!

As for the "yay breeding industry" post, I think you are misunderstanding something. A lot of times people like to blame the collective- be it "society is responsible for this" or "the breeding industry" is responsible for that. The truth is, the breeding industry (and society, for that matter) is a collection of individuals, making individual decisions. If we didn't have "overpriced" stallions, we wouldn't have the "value" stallions! Prices go up, they come down. Speculation abounds.

If Big Brown's first runners are duds, then you can take your chances with your mare for $15,000, and you have access to the same successful racehorse's genes, for less money. And you're still just guessing. The breeding industry doesn't do things as one entity, any more than the stock market does. Breeders make decisions about where to put their money.

And for the record, I think Smarty Jones was ten times the racehorse Big Brown was! Although not as regal in appearance. What a speedy little horse.

[Blinkers On]

All I took from that was bla bla bla. Smarty Jones was a better horse. A point I agree with.. Sorry, been a long day

[LaurieB]

And that really sums it up. One sentence. Yay breeding industry! Kudos!

I'm assuming that's sarcasm? So maybe I'm a little slow here. You're saying it's a bad thing to breed to a big, correct, athletic horse that capable of winning the toughest races we have?

[Blinkers On]

Sure, it was sarcasm, but I can't say Big Brown is a great candidate for procreation. He's pretty. He out ran his pedigree. Managed to have a career that almost lasted an entire year. He won two "tough" races against a VERY weak crop of three year olds. Longevity doesn't run through his immediate relatives. And it's not running through him if his own career is any indication.
Too lightly raced. Too plagued with problems. Moderately bred. Geldings have won the Derby as well. The gene pool is not missing them. There are better stallions that are worth the asking price. Big Brown is not. He is sure pretty though. If you don't look down. Something people might want to consider before breeding to him.
What kind of a mare would you breed to him hypothetically? And breed to race or breed to sell?

[LaurieB]

Sure, it was sarcasm, but I can't say Big Brown is a great candidate for procreation. He's pretty. He out ran his pedigree. Managed to have a career that almost lasted an entire year. He won two "tough" races against a VERY weak crop of three year olds. Longevity doesn't run through his immediate relatives. And it's not running through him if his own career is any indication.
Too lightly raced. Too plagued with problems. Moderately bred. Geldings have won the Derby as well. The gene pool is not missing them. There are better stallions that are worth the asking price. Big Brown is not. He is sure pretty though. If you don't look down. Something people might want to consider before breeding to him.
What kind of a mare would you breed to him hypothetically? And breed to race or breed to sell?

Yeah, you're right. Thoroughbred breeders are morons. We just breed for pretty. And that whole moderate pedigree/bad feet thing? Who knew? Thanks for cluing me in. :rolleyes:

[Blinkers On]

Anything I can do , Dumpling.:sadsmile:

[grayarabs]

I cannot recall - did BB set any speed records? IOW what does he have to offer over any other KD winner/stakes winner? I think he is gorgeous. I guess you otherwise have to compare him to what else is out there. He ran on steroids. Did the others on the list of stallions to breed to also run on steroids? Take his bad feet out of the equation - would you still want to breed to him? I would love to see sporthorse mares go to him myself.

[Glimmerglass]

I cannot recall - did BB set any speed records? IOW what does he have to offer over any other KD winner/stakes winner?

Keep in mind the same will be relatively true of Curlin. Nada with any type of margin-of-distance, track or stakes records. Less then 20-lifetime starts, etc. Curlin's existing record for earnings is something to be assured to fall again within a couple of years.

[Blinkers On]

Assured??? Really?? Please enlighten.

[Glimmerglass]

Assured??? Really?? Please enlighten.

Of another US horse breaking the career $10M mark? It is a guarantee in my lifetime.

Spectacular Bid, unquestionably the last supreme horse to set foot on any US track, retired at the end of 1980 with the then-record of career earnings at $2,781,607. How does anyone think that mark was trumped by horses rather inferrior to him? Well simply because purses have been substantially inflated since his time and will continue to do so.

The Breeders' Cup Classic purse has nudged up significantly in the last 10 years. So too the Kentucky Derby purse and the Dubai Cup purse is seriously fat money.

Big Brown after just 8 lifetime starts amased $3,576,700. Had he run in the BCC, finished in the money, and raced at the age of 4 with a competitive streak it would not be stretching the imagination to think he'd be safely north of the $7M if not $8M range at the age of 4.

If running less then 20-times over a whole career gets a horse into the $8M range (or $10M in Curlin's case) just think if you had a horse that ran as many times as Bid - at 30 starts - did in this career.

Curlin's run a mere 6 times in 2008 and earned $5.294 million for it.

People forget the Arlington Million - for example - when introduced in 1981 was so earth shattering because it was the first horse race for $1M albeit in total prize money. Today $1M races almost abound like weeds.

As has been pointed out before there is the Grade 3 Delta Jackpot in December (http://www.ntra.com/races.aspx?id=36331) for 2-yr olds which, until this year, was a $1M race. It has been due to these economic times scaled back to $750k. Still it - along with other non-Grade 1 races like the Penn Derby, WV Derby, Clark H., etc. - spotlights what kind of big money can be taken in.

[SleepyFox]

As has been pointed out before there is the Grade 3 Delta Jackpot in December (http://www.ntra.com/races.aspx?id=36331) for 2-yr olds which, until this year, was a $1M race. It has been due to these economic times scaled back to $750k.

Actually, Delta took away money from the Jackpot and put it toward increasing the purse of the Princess Stakes, which has graded status (grade III) for the first time this year, to $500k. :)

[Blinkers On]

Curlin's existing record for earnings is something to be assured to fall again within a couple of years.

The above statement is slightly different than "in my lifetime." Unless of course you are elderly or have a terminal illness.

[tbracer65]

I cannot recall - did BB set any speed records? IOW what does he have to offer over any other KD winner/stakes winner? I think he is gorgeous. I guess you otherwise have to compare him to what else is out there. He ran on steroids. Did the others on the list of stallions to breed to also run on steroids? Take his bad feet out of the equation - would you still want to breed to him? I would love to see sporthorse mares go to him myself.

Not to change the subject of the thread, but just thought I'd answer this one ----

<<Did the others on the list of stallions to breed to also run on steroids? >>

Probably 95% of them did. I also believe Secretariat ran on steroids. If you don't abuse them, they help a lot of horses tremendously.