Warmblood foals out of TB dams - discrimination?

[Kneigh]

Have any WB breeders ever noticed if there is a prejudice among buyers towards registered WB foals who are out of approved TB dams? Is there a perception that these first generation crosses are less desirable (hence should be less expensive) than foals out WB dams? Or is a good quality foal with full registration papers from a WB registry, all that really seems to matter?

Does it make a difference what discipline the foal is aimed for - hunters, jumpers or dressage?

[Fairview Horse Center]

It is a prejudice scale on both sides.

A foal out of a TB dam by a American born Warmblood stallion is thought of as less...
than a foal out of a TB dam by an American stallion that was imported. That foal thought of as less than one out of a TB dam by a stallion still in Europe.

The same is true of the dams. The foal out of the TB dam is thought of as less than one out of an American born Warmblood dam. HER foal will be thought of as less than if the dam was born in Europe and imported. HER foal will be thought less of than one that was born to her IN Europe.

Sad, but true. The more "imported" the label is, the more desirable, and it has nothing to do with quality.

[clint]

A friend of mine who did a lot of Hanoverian breeding and stood stallions said that she felt the F-1 cross was harder to sell as a foal but that once undersaddle, was just as marketable as a horse with both parents warmblood.

[TKR]

I think there are alot of folks who have a "prejudice"without even taking a look at wb foals that aren't "wb" for the first two generations or better. It's unfortunate and I can't say what that's based on other than some misguided assumption. Then you see the same folks lauding and buying foals by approved Thoroughbred stallions standing in Germany! So, the rhyme or reason doesn't always connect. So be it. If someone rules out even considering prospects without giving them a look or ride, they might leave out something really special because of that "tunnel vision". I think it probably is just more political, ignorance and maybe bragging that is the motivation moreso than real knowledge. Just like with anything else, there are good and bad in any breed or registry. My Thoroughbred mares have all been well received and scored well, into the highest books at their inspections and produced foals that only had positive remarks and were Premium.
PennyG

[Amoroso]

First of all let me start by saying that the Thoroughbred has been used by the warmblood registries for years to inject new blood and refinement into stock, with huge success in some cases. Take for example Marlon, a TB stallion from Ireland, imported to Germany in 1965 who was a major part of the Holsteiner program. Or another example, Whatamin who sired the world famous KWPN stallion Uniform.
However, I've found time and time again that foals out of TB dams seem to be worth less than those out of warmblood dams with qualified warmblood pedigrees. I also agree with this though. In terms of warmblood breeding, there is a much higher expense involved to aquire truely well bred warmblood mares (imported or not). It is much cheaper to find a nice looking TB mare and inspect her for entry into an auxilary book. Thus, I think it is appropriate for foals by TB mares to be priced less than those with a full warmblood pedigee as they are in fact ONLY half warmblood. There are exceptions to the rule of course.
I find that too many people expect their warmblood foals by TB mares to inherit all of the warmblood traits and none of the TB attributes. Overall, most TB horses do not have the movement, suspension, impulsion from behind or build that would allow them to move for competition at an upper level. So, you will get some foals with many of the warmblood sire's attributes and some with hardly any. This is the risk of breeding any foal, but when you are breeding a warmblood mare to a warmblood stallion the likelihood of getting downhill type movement is less of course.
Does any of this mean that warmblood foals out of TB approved mares should be overlooked, not in my opinion. But, I do agree that they should be priced less than your average, well bred full warmblood foal.

[Dressage_Diva333]

I havn't had any experiance selling Half TBs in the past. Right now I'm selling my colt who is out of an approved Thoroughbred mare, out of a Selle Francais stallion. I've had several inquiries in the short time I've been advertising him. He is, however, more of a hunter/jumper type horse. Thats what he's bred and built for. He is registered pure Selle Francais, and it seems that modern Selle Francais's have quite a large influence of Thoroughbred anyways, but, in general (of course there are exceptions!), SFs are hunters and jumpers.

I feel that in many cases, h/j people really like the Thoroughbred influence, when it "works". It lightens and refines the older bloodlines.

In Dressage, I feel like the half TBs are priced lower. I have a Swedish Warmblood X Thoroughbred mare who is an excellent mover, really fantastic. The weaknesses I see in her are that her legs are not as correct as I like. Her front legs arn't bad, but they arn't perfect either. Her hind legs are quite straight. There are times when she will get "hot", but she is quickly reactive, and intelligent under saddle for the most part. She is actually quite a wide mare for being half TB, yet she has a beautifully refined head and neck. I'd like her to be a bit more "under herself", as there are times when she will trail her hocks. But she has proven that when bred to the right stallion, just about everything negative I said about her above, has been improved. One of her daughters, her best foal IMO (I didn't breed any of her previous foals, I'll breed her myself for the first time next year), is very much under herself with an excellent hind leg. She definately has wonderful self carriage under saddle, she's a wide mare as well, but thats fine with me.

That being said, I really like the Thoroughbred influence. I personally have a pure TB mare, who is a lovely mare, but she is going to be bred to Jumper type stallions, because I know that even though she moves nicely for a Thoroughbred, there is this predjudice that exists. Unless I were to breed a horse out of her that I intended to keep, then I would have a Half Thoroughbred that I could breed to a suited Warmblood stallion.

Then you look at the Lauries Crusader xx line. That horse is incredible, and Londonderry is really amazing. I would jump on the oppertunity to have a Lauries Crusader xx mare to breed Dressage horses from, because he has, time and time again, proven to be an exceptional producer. But the Lauries Crusaders of this world are few and far between.



Overall, I do feel like there is a predjudice in the Dressage breeding, but not so much in the hunter/jumper market. For me personally though, I would definately look at foals out of approved Thoroughbred mares :)

[can't re-]

I would think Dressage F1's would be the hardest to sell.

My F1's sell for the same price as my other mares, but my TB mares have more than proven themselves in the show ring and have exceptional bloodlines, which helps.

I think people are skeptical when breeders use, what may seem like, a random OTTB mare and breed to a hot stallion. Buyers are getting more savy and want more than just the hot stallion and I think most breeders are a step ahead. :)

[Kyzteke]

At first, when WBs were in such short supply in this country, you could still get very good $$ for the TB/WB crosses (F-1).

But then a combination of things happened (all just IMHO):
1. Many breeders began using less than the highest quality TB mares to use as broodmares, since America has such a huge supply of relatively cheap TB mares. However, IN GENERAL these mares were not the same type/quality of TB that was utilized in Europe to "build" the modern WB.

2. Registries competing for breeding $$ found a place for all but the worst of these mares, thereby either condoning the use of less than steller mares and/or not educating their breeding members as well as could be done. But you can't charge to register something if it's not there to register, so it served these registries (all but one of whom continued to have close ties with their European counterparts and usually had inspectors from Germany/Holland, etc.) to make money and build a base.

3. More and more "real" WBs were imported into the country to become breeding stock, thereby decreasing the need for "non-WB" mares.

So in the last few years I have seen a big downturn in the value of the TB/WB foal...and even as riding stock that may someday be bred. If you look at the "Broodmares to Lease" are often TB mares. Some have produced excellent stock. But they just can't command the same prices anymore.

Of course, whoever said the imported horse still brings the highest dollar may be right -- is there still that cache to importation?

Lastly, I am speaking mostly for the dressage market...I think it might be abit different in hunters.

[showjumpers66]

It depends on the buyer and, yes, I believe that discipline does matter. Our buyers who are shopping for an honest to goodness Grand Prix showjumping prospect want a foal from an exceptional motherline that has proven generation after generation to produce international caliber showjumpers. I totally agree with this theory. Yes, you may get nice foals from a TB mare, but a strong producing Holsteiner mare will produce jump and talent with almost if not every foal. It is hit and miss with the TB mares. On the flip side, many of the hunter buyers really like the TB/WB crosses and many TB mares are very consistent in producing fancy hunters. I love the TB mares and started my program with them, but overall our foals from our really good Holsteiner mares are far better prospects for international sport than our foals from TB mothers. Our TB mothers (or 1/2 TB mothers) are producing fancier hunter prospects.

[MagicRoseFarm]

This is true, and unfortunately, it is a perception we created ourselves, and perpetuate...

[JWB]

Seems to me that the H/J ring actually looks for some TB blood and I KNOW I looked for at least half TB blood for my event prospect.. She's actually 9/16- Her dam has been VERY successful at producing premium warmblood foals but is a TB and Ladykiller, who is one of the more influential stallions in the Holsteiner registry was a TB.

My filly's 3/4 brother, is registered Holsteiner and an approved breeding stallion by AHHA, BWP and RPSI. He's out of the same mare my filly is out of and he's actually 5/8 TB. He is sought after as a hunter/jumper/eventing stallion, not so much straight dressage (though he's a lovely mover too). His sire, Lemgo was 1/4 TB thanks to Ladykiller.

[TKR]

Well, gee whiz, isn't that why there are inspections? They pretty much evaluate (or should) what's appropriate and quality from what's not. There are discriminating breeders that are knowledgable and there are the few that are not and breed any uterus for a foal thinking the sire will determine everything from the price to the quality to the ability. It's fairly easy to assess if you know what you are looking for or at. Quality and ability isn't limited to the wb sire, the dam is over 1/2 the factor and the resulting foal will answer that question. What is this about an "auxillary registery" for Thoroughbreds? Excuse me! It is becoming less and less affordable or attractive to breed indiscriminately with the market not being friendly to less than stellar produce. Don't overlook a good Thoroughbred mare matched well to an equally good stallion, whether she raced well or was bred for sport. Preconceived notions often shoot you in the foot!
PennyG

[YankeeLawyer]

I would want to know what "kind" of TB. Are we talking about a superior quality mare with a proven show record, or at the very least a mare that is very correct, with great athleticism, movement and jump, or a 2K OTTB (and yes, I realize sometimes super bargains can be found but I am referring to 2K mares that are not worth a penny more). I look at the quality of the indivisuals and the foals they produce, as a buyer.

As a breeder, however, I *do* think the market is not as favorable for most F-! crosses as foals, at least. I would think / hope that by the time these horses are started under saddle and marketed as riding horse / competition prospects, that people can see the quality and get beyond the labels. A nice horse is a nice horse, and a good infusion of quality TB blood with the right WB match can be a good thing, imo.

[Calliope]

I tend to agree that it is more difficult to sell a WB/TB foal now than it was in the past.

But then, I also think that more and more buyers expect to buy a young horse that has 3 or 4 generations of imported warmblood breeding that will end up looking and moving just like *insert big name flavour of the day stallion here* for just a little bit more than the price of the WB/TB 'cross'.

Not saying all buyers, of course, just more than before. :)


I tend to like a fair bit of TB in most warmbloods, myself.

'Interestingly', the top foal in this years Hannoverian inspection in Australia was out of a TB mare.

http://www.cyberhorse.net.au/cgi-bin/tve/displaynewsitem.pl?20080501hhsachampfoal08.txt

[Walnut Farm]

I had one TB mare once (AHS approved). Her foals did sell for a lot less than my Hanoverians without TB on the dam side, and rightly so. The mare was A LOT less than my imported mares, who has LW show, approved stallions on dam side etc. Besides F1 for breeding can be much more unpredicable as someone just mentioned.

Under saddle I would guess less so?

Just my experience!

[ponygirl]

I had a list of European approved stallions out of TB mare lines. I was quite surprised to see this. I was also quite surprised to see the majority of the approved stallions were dressage stallions. I'll try and dig the list up.

[camohn]

First of all let me start by saying that the Thoroughbred has been used by the warmblood registries for years to inject new blood and refinement into stock, with huge success in some cases. Take for example Marlon, a TB stallion from Ireland, imported to Germany in 1965 who was a major part of the Holsteiner program. Or another example, Whatamin who sired the world famous KWPN stallion Uniform.
However, I've found time and time again that foals out of TB dams seem to be worth less than those out of warmblood dams with qualified warmblood pedigrees. I also agree with this though. In terms of warmblood breeding, there is a much higher expense involved to aquire truely well bred warmblood mares (imported or not). It is much cheaper to find a nice looking TB mare and inspect her for entry into an auxilary book. Thus, I think it is appropriate for foals by TB mares to be priced less than those with a full warmblood pedigee as they are in fact ONLY half warmblood. There are exceptions to the rule of course.
I find that too many people expect their warmblood foals by TB mares to inherit all of the warmblood traits and none of the TB attributes. Overall, most TB horses do not have the movement, suspension, impulsion from behind or build that would allow them to move for competition at an upper level. So, you will get some foals with many of the warmblood sire's attributes and some with hardly any. This is the risk of breeding any foal, but when you are breeding a warmblood mare to a warmblood stallion the likelihood of getting downhill type movement is less of course.
Does any of this mean that warmblood foals out of TB approved mares should be overlooked, not in my opinion. But, I do agree that they should be priced less than your average, well bred full warmblood foal.

I only half agree with this. The part I agree with is that using a TB mare there is more of a chance that you will be getting a TB type moving foal. The part I don't agree with is that if the foal comes out a beautiful WB type that is should still be priced for less just because the dam is a TB. This year I had 2 foals out of TB mares by the same dressage WB sire. One came out looking like a full WB (not a refined thing in the least) and one came out looking like a TB with a better set on neck and bigger butt. Foal number one is definitely a dressage type, foal number 2 yells "hunter" for movement. It also depends on whom you are marketing. Since I will be trying to market the hunter moving foal to hunter/jumper folks I doubt the fact that mom is a TB will be a deterrant. The dressage-y type foal got a 7.7 at inspection. That is a very respectable score regardless of who the momma is and she would not be sold more cheaply in the least because the dam is a TB. (FWIW as far as TBs go momma has a gold plated pedigree and was once upon a time a VERY expensive mare from a top KY race farm). Yes.......I know TB race pedigree has no correlation to being a sporthorse.....but the point is she was no claimer off the bush track. She is a royally bred TB.
I think where the TBs got a bad rap as WB dams is that there are folks taking any unsuitable TB off the track because it is a cheap uterus and breeding it to a WB. Indisciminate use of unsuitable TBs is a problem. As folks become educated I see a lot less of this now though. 10 years ago when I started going to my first inspections I used to see all kinds of horribly conformed TB mares being presented and the owners getting upset when they got lousy scores. I really don't see that kind of volume of "bad" TB mares being presented anymore.

[Iron Horse Farm]

Well, gee whiz, isn't that why there are inspections? They pretty much evaluate (or should) what's appropriate and quality from what's not. There are discriminating breeders that are knowledgable and there are the few that are not and breed any uterus for a foal thinking the sire will determine everything from the price to the quality to the ability. It's fairly easy to assess if you know what you are looking for or at. Quality and ability isn't limited to the wb sire, the dam is over 1/2 the factor and the resulting foal will answer that question. What is this about an "auxillary registery" for Thoroughbreds? Excuse me! It is becoming less and less affordable or attractive to breed indiscriminately with the market not being friendly to less than stellar produce. Don't overlook a good Thoroughbred mare matched well to an equally good stallion, whether she raced well or was bred for sport.
PennyG

Penny, this is very well said.

I was showing a group of youngsters in the pasture to a potential buyer. She fixated on one filly and was really taken by her. All of my youngsters were the same price, so she just had to pick what she wanted. After she was done looking, we went inside to look at videos of the sires and papers. When she found out that the filly that she liked had a TB dam, she was quite offended. I explained to her that the TB mare was in the Main Mare Book for GOV and that the filly hd gone premium. I also reminded her that in the pasture she couldn't tell that this filly's mom was a TB. None the less, she ended up purchasing nothing and I've often wondered if she regretted not buying something that it seemed she really wanted. :sadsmile:

Here is my only TB mare and some of her foals:
http://ironhorsefrm.com/secret.htm

[STF]

A friend of mine who did a lot of Hanoverian breeding and stood stallions said that she felt the F-1 cross was harder to sell as a foal but that once undersaddle, was just as marketable as a horse with both parents warmblood.


Same here as well.

[STF]

[quote=Walnut Farm;3619540]Under saddle I would guess less so?

[quote]

I think it comes down to an AA (which is the majority of the buyer market) to find a horse that is comfortable to ride and safe to ride. A horse can be super bred for 4 generations, but if its standing on its hind feet and bucking all the time, then......
But most of the sensible breeders are crossing for rideability, trainability and tempermernt, which is a good thing.

[Edgewood]

Well, I do think it depends on the TB, the registry she is approved by, and her scores.

I have only my own experience to go by: an AHS approved TB mare who has passed the AHS MPT and had excellent rideability score (8) and good gaits and jumping scores. Hence, per Hanoverian rules, her foals got the same brand because she had been moved up to the Main Studbook by virtue of passing the MPT. All of her foals sold as weanlings (except the 1st one, which I kept till she was 4 years old) and for good prices ($8500-$10500). So slightly lower than my full warmbloods, yet similar to some full warmbloods in the market. All foals went to H/J homes - it helped that I had a fabulous photo of the TB mare jumping in her MPT to sell these foals to H/J homes and that the foals had very good conformation, were pretty and had nice movement.

So it depends on the TB mare, the registry, etc. I do think that the fact that my mare did pass the MPT added some value ($$) to selling her foals. I don't think a single person that inquired about this mare's foals was turned off by the fact that she was a TB. And in fact, for her last foal that was for sale, I had 2 "buyers" one of which was waiting in the wings if the 1st one pulled out (which they did not).

[STF]

It also seems to me that Hunter/Jumper people are not as negative to buy an F1 cross out of a stallion they like.

[graystonefarm]

Yes, it's true and the reason why I sold my TB mares. They were very nice mares and very good producers, but I lost money breeding them.

I have a friend whose TB mare produced a colt that was the AHS champion colt at his inspection this year. I am told that he is superb and it will be interesting to see if someone snatches him up any time soon.

[Home Again Farm]

A friend of mine who did a lot of Hanoverian breeding and stood stallions said that she felt the F-1 cross was harder to sell as a foal but that once undersaddle, was just as marketable as a horse with both parents warmblood.

Ditto. The only F1 I ever had sold when he was four and well uder saddle. The mare was wonderful (made an overall 8 when inspected with AHS). She only gave me one foal. :no: I'd very much liked to have more.

I think most F1 foals may be harder to sell as foals, but if they turn out well will readily sell as riding horses.

[lauriep]

It is a prejudice scale on both sides.

A foal out of a TB dam by a American born Warmblood stallion is thought of as less...
than a foal out of a TB dam by an American stallion that was imported. That foal thought of as less than one out of a TB dam by a stallion still in Europe.

The same is true of the dams. The foal out of the TB dam is thought of as less than one out of an American born Warmblood dam. HER foal will be thought of as less than if the dam was born in Europe and imported. HER foal will be thought less of than one that was born to her IN Europe.

Sad, but true. The more "imported" the label is, the more desirable, and it has nothing to do with quality.

Not true in hunters.

[tri]

It has come down to marketing and the lack of cohesive marketing of an american product. There is no incentive for the europeans to market what is bred in the U.S. unless it came directly from them.

The U.S. breeders have done this to themselves and therefor lack the knowledge to know what and how to market the product effectively.

For example: You do NOT seee a foal/young horse advertised for sale in Europe like this: "Bay foal by a Tb stallion out of a ....." No, they say "Bay foal by Lauries Crusador xx...."

But in the U.S. we constantly see, "Bay foal by XYZ stallion, out of A THOROUGHBRED MARE".

Why is that? Is it because there is so little knowledge on that TB mare? The public won't recognize it? Americans still don't know what Tbs marelines to use?...and if they don't, why not? IMHO, it is because the euro registries have NO desire to market U.S. marelines - that would be shooting themselves in the foot.

The only exception I see is if the TB mare is from the Twist lines and then you'll see "Bay foal out of a Twist mare by XYZ stallion."

American breeders have for the most part given away the U.S warmblood breeding industry and then wonder why those euro registries - which is the only marketing entities in existence in the U.S. - aren't promoting a U.S. product over their own. ROTFL.

[fannie mae]

tri, i don't get it.
what have european registries to do with "Warmblood foals out of TB dams - discrimination?" - ?

"There is no incentive for the europeans to market what is bred in the U.S. unless it came directly from them."

i can't follow the logic of your argumentation as the inital question with respect to wb foals o/o tb mares being somewhat descriminated for sure is a general global problem and nothing USspecific.
i have had professional stallion raisers come to my place looking at my foals - the wb foals.
whenever i asked if they wanted to see my tb mare's half tb foal the answer was: no, thank you, no interest.

their rejection is understandable since there is no recognition value whatsoever within a tb mare and the value of her get for wb breeding unless she has already produced foals who have become succesful in sports. no matter who the sire of these foals is. adding an unknown tb mare to teh equasion simply leverages the risk of uncertainty.

"No, they say "Bay foal by Lauries Crusador xx...."

there is, however, a huge recognition value when adversting foals by LC - for 649 simple reasons and another 25 very valid reasons, too:
as there are 649 registered (succesful) sporthorses around by LC and another 25 licensed sons.
you'ld be crazy not to market your foal saying: "Bay foal by Lauries Crusador xx...."


"Why is that? Is it because there is so little knowledge on that TB mare?"

exactly the point.

[incahoots]

I have been recently thinking alot about this lately....I have a very cute and correct F1 cross filly who will be three next year. She is a very nice hunter type and I will be breeding for a hunter foal. I am concerned about taking her to one of the big registries (GOV or AHHA or AHS) because her movement is that of a hunter....close to the ground and sweepy, not lofty and suspended. I understand and agree that the standard for the WB registries is for the dressage and jumping horses and their loftier movement...that doesn't bother me. What would be nice is to have these big, and in my opinion, important registries have a hunter book...I think KWPN does it right? So then my mare can make a main book instead of possibly a lower book due to her hunter movement. And I am, by the way, not interested in AWS or AWR.

[elizabeth Callahan]

I think it is true that there is a lot of discrimination toward that cross - esp as a dressage horse. Even if someone is looking for a riding horse only, they don't want to see " any TB crosses" It really is a shame, as some of my TB crosses have beaten the full WB"s at DAD, and I prefer them for the eventing world . I think they are priced slightly lower - mostly b/c I feel that people expect to pay less for a TB cross - perhaps b/c they are thought to be inferior to start with. I'd rather sell than wait for that extra 1000, but I wish people would look at the horse as an individual instead
I still prefer some TB - so I'll continue to cross my TB mares !

[Amoroso]

I only half agree with this. The part I agree with is that using a TB mare there is more of a chance that you will be getting a TB type moving foal. The part I don't agree with is that if the foal comes out a beautiful WB type that is should still be priced for less just because the dam is a TB. This year I had 2 foals out of TB mares by the same dressage WB sire. One came out looking like a full WB (not a refined thing in the least) and one came out looking like a TB with a better set on neck and bigger butt. Foal number one is definitely a dressage type, foal number 2 yells "hunter" for movement. It also depends on whom you are marketing. Since I will be trying to market the hunter moving foal to hunter/jumper folks I doubt the fact that mom is a TB will be a deterrant. The dressage-y type foal got a 7.7 at inspection. That is a very respectable score regardless of who the momma is and she would not be sold more cheaply in the least because the dam is a TB. (FWIW as far as TBs go momma has a gold plated pedigree and was once upon a time a VERY expensive mare from a top KY race farm). Yes.......I know TB race pedigree has no correlation to being a sporthorse.....but the point is she was no claimer off the bush track. She is a royally bred TB.
I think where the TBs got a bad rap as WB dams is that there are folks taking any unsuitable TB off the track because it is a cheap uterus and breeding it to a WB. Indisciminate use of unsuitable TBs is a problem. As folks become educated I see a lot less of this now though. 10 years ago when I started going to my first inspections I used to see all kinds of horribly conformed TB mares being presented and the owners getting upset when they got lousy scores. I really don't see that kind of volume of "bad" TB mares being presented anymore.

I still think that even a nice warmblood type foal out of a TB mare should be priced accordingly. Given that this foal is only half WB, I really don't see why it would or should command a full WB style price. I've had success selling a few TB cross foals in the past, and I think I've had success at a foal age mostly because I price them accordingly.
FYI - someone was talking about the KWPN Hunter Book. Yes, the KWPN has a hunter book, but they are no longer inspecting mares for the stud book that are not KWPN.

[nsm]

Thoroughbred mares are obviously easily available here. The trick is to pick really good ones. The ones I personally breed have outstanding pedigrees with strong top lines, are conformationally correct and have a performance record. Ironrule is out of a TB mare, his top line is Damascus same as Napur and Grand Love and it is one of the toplines of Cocoanut Grove, his dam was a level 8 jumper. He was approved this year and was given an 87 by the BWP judges for jumping. He was a top Premium foal with a high score, in other words there has been no discrimination there, nor has there been with mare owners looking to breed, he already has a book of 10 and he just got approved. I breed mostly TB mares, 3 of my current 4 are TBs. I have had no trouble selling the offspring because they have TB dams, but of course I sell mainly to H-J people. I do not find a problem with that at all. The only problem I run into is the Hunter movement and inspections.

Nancy

[Tornado Run Farm]

I’ve had no problem selling my F1’s and getting my full price – mainly because I know their quality and prove it. Because of MY age and MY conformation:), I don’t start the youngsters anymore u/s, so in addition to inspections, I take youngsters to recognized breed shows in order to get show and year-end credentials before I market them. When my buyers see pictures in print of the prospect they’re interested in with a Born in the USA or Young Horse Champion award, the fact they’re out of a TB mare doesn’t even come up. I recently sold an F1 long yearling for just under 20K, which I think is a respectable price in this economy...

[tri]

tri, i don't get it.
what have european registries to do with "Warmblood foals out of TB dams - discrimination?" - ?

I'll ask Joe Bidenishly, "Is this a serious question? Are you serious?"

The euro registries came to America to sell their horses, semen, etc. Perhaps you weren't around in the early days of many of these registies starting up. I was. There was a HUGE push to 'import european mares' as the Tb mares 'weren't good enough'. That was the resounding battle cry from every single wb inspection I went to regardless of which registry. They happily took all these Tb mares - some of which were horrid (maybe a lot) - but at the same time announced to everyone "IMPORT MORE EURO MARES".

The sportbred TB breeders - you know, the ones that had the NICE TB mares - came to the inspecitons and many of the euro registries said NO. We won't take these mares as many were not registered with the jockey club (they were sport bred not race bred). As a result, only race bred tb mares were accepted and many sport bred ones weren't. (Opposite of what SHOULD have happened)

So, this course of action, along with the great euro marketing machines that is very effective in saying anything in europe is better; import, import, IMPORT IMPORT has given rise to the discrimination.

Except with the hunter people who, to a great extent, were the ones with the sportbred TBs who have continued doing what they've always done without the euro registries and, hey, what do you know? doesn't have the same problem. Makes you think, doesn't it?

[elly]

...........my 2 cents on this subject -

I am probably in the minority, but I actually look for foals out of TB mares - mind you, I am talking about top quality mares which have been selected using the same standards/criteria used when picking a WB mare. Crossing such a TB mare with a well bred WB stallion usually produces an athletic and intelligent foal.

I usually do not sell these foals - I want to know how they feel under saddle as 3 year olds before I decide to sell or keep. I take my youngsters to USDF Breedshow - starting at age 2. Here they can gain valueable show experience, as well as a solid show record. The horses I did sell went for the same price as a WB with similar show records would.

Is there prejudice against WB foals o/o TB mares - yes.

However, speaking just for myself - my WBs out of TB dams (regardless of color, gender, size or country of origin) have been my most successful horses thus far and the TB in them has been a great part of that success.

[Oakstable]

I have had a buyer contact me specifically for an F1 cross for the jumper market.

She prefers the wb/tb cross.

Evelyn Vollstedt gave my last wb/tb by Coromino a GOV Premium award.

I don't have any TB mares anymore, but if I did, I would cross them for the HJ market, not dressage.

[Kneigh]

How many WB breeders would currently add a nice quality TB to their broodmare band ?

[Ibex]

You know it's funny... I have a SWB/TB mare. I was talking to two different people the other day, both established sport horse breeders. The stallion is local, and has a reputation for nice ammy friendly babies.

The dressage breeder commented how much she liked the cross of that particular stallion with a sport-bred TB mare.

The H/J person said it was a pity the stallion had been crossed to TBs so much.

It's all a matter of perspective, and what you like!

[tuckawayfarm]

How many WB breeders would currently add a nice quality TB to their broodmare band?

I only have one, but if I found another one like her, I would gladly trade one of my MMB WB mares. :)

[JGHIRETIRE]

Ok maybe I'm weird but I don't see why that should be an issue - if it's a lovely TB mare with good bloodlines and a nice warmblood stallion - or vice versa - I don't care.
I am very interested in bloodlines - just because it's interesting but the important thing to me is temperment.
We had some wonderful h/j lines by OMG TB's that are getting lost because it's not FASHIONABLE anymore.
I also think it's ridiculous that these horses are now becoming so huge. I don't need a 17h horse to ride. I know it's all perception but jeez louise!!! Give me a break!!
I have a lovely TB mare that has some of the "older" hunter lines. Now if I could find a stallion with a dead calm temperment - either WB or TB - I might breed her. She's a perfect hunter type although (GASP) she's not quite 16h.
Temperment matters more than anything - if you can't peacefully ride the horse does it really matter whether it was born in the USA or otherwise???

[JGHIRETIRE]

Basically - yep what Elly said!! LOL

[TWF]

Breeding in the early 80's...the TB crosses were refered to as half-breds. I ignored the paper/registry alphabet soup/ blood issue and produced sporthorses. My formula always included a great TB.

[ilikridn]

I was given a TB mare for breeding. She was given to me because she is quite old (23) and her previous owner didn't want to take care of her anymore. She had been a champion show hunter and had had four babies several years ago.

She is a truly fantastic mare. Her movement is beautiful, even at her age and in spite of her lack of fitness. If I were to see a picture of her, I probably wouldn't be very impressed. But when I saw her move, my mouth fell open.

I did try to breed her but it didn't work out. Too old. But I'm keeping her so that she can live out her life in our pastures with all her horse buddies.

I had never been interested in TBs before I got her. Thought I had to have a WB. But if I could find another one like her, I would take her in a NY minute!

[tri]

Do you know her bloodlines?