Has anyone ever been told by a farrier, your horse has foundered UPDATE #33

[grandprixjump]

The people I am working this young Hanno for, was told a few days ago that their Hanno mare has foundered between shoeings.. She was NEVER lame, and has even been jumping with NO problems up to 3'.
I had to explain to these people that I DON'T believe she has, without any lameness, and jumping. I do think she has on the wrong shoes, and I talked to her about them. She is done by a farrier that ONLY cold shoes, is amazed that people are willing to pay over $100 for shoeing, and puts what I call Keg, QH shoes on her. I told them she needs wider web shoes especially with her jumping for the extra support..

[grandprixjump]

That is why I was kind of dumbfounded when they told me this... Odd growth or rings like that are normally caused by changes in feed and schedule, work, etc. So going to the trainers was a BIG change in your horses schedule...

[KristiKGC]

I listened to a farrier at a friend's barn tell her that the pony he was shoeing had obviously foundered and wouldn't be able to go to pony finals. I sat there in shock because she'd recently qualified on this pony and nobody but this "farrier" could tell that she'd foundered.

I vowed to remember his name and make sure he was never allowed near my horses.

[DeeThbd]

I come from the opposite end of the spectrum where my former blacksmith was completely oblivious to the fact that my mare was in the midst of foundering....I knew she was sore, but I believed it was from bruising from some bad footing. My vet diagnosed her immediately, and was stunned that he missed it. The X-rays we took showed how severe it was, but with a lot of hard work and a different trimmer we were able to help her get a lot more comfortable and sound. I'd suggest that you look into getting some radiographs done to see where things are at.
Dee

[Evalee Hunter]

Well, I could imagine the possibility that the horse had become laminitic (although it doesn't sound so) BUT, to my understanding, founder refers to a condition that could be diagnosed only with radiographs.

[EqTrainer]

I have never had it announced TO ME, but I have had the unhappy role of telling people.

And it never goes well.

There are a lot of outward signs that could make a farrier or trimmer pretty certain that a horse had been laminitic, or had rotated or sunk. A bulging sole is a pretty obvious sign :(

Horses can be subclinically laminitic and have minor rotation that has happened over time without being profoundly lame.

I would call my vet and prepare to do radiographs and perhaps a venogram if it turns out there is indeed a suspicion of it.

[Showponymom Aefvue Mid Atlantic Division]

Funny you should mention this. My young Hano mare is at a trainers barn right now with a new farrier. The first time he did her feet she had asked if she had foundered. I about had a heart attack. She indeed since moving to the trainers had some odd growth from her coronary band...like rings of a tree. She was never off or acted ill. I'm still fairly paranoid over it wondering if perhaps she may have??

I had a large pony for sale and everyone said she looked like she foundered. But she was never lame and never had heat. But she had the same kind of rings you are talking about. I never got her xrayed because I found someone who would take her with out them.

[Showponymom Aefvue Mid Atlantic Division]

Well, I could imagine the possibility that the horse had become laminitic (although it doesn't sound so) BUT, to my understanding, founder refers to a condition that could be diagnosed only with radiographs.

I would also suggest taking digital xrays of both feet. It also seems to me that farriers are always saying something has foundered when there are abnormalities on the foot, instead of suggesting getting a vet to look at them first.

[Daydream Believer]

I once bought a horse that supposedly had white line disease and was treated for it unsuccessfully for years by his farrier. My farrier (at that time I was still using one), pulled the shoe, look at his very stretched white line and obvious laminar wedge and said he was foundered. He sure was too...just in that one foot. If you know what you are looking for, you can tell.

Yes a horse can founder in between shoeings. Lots of reasons why it can happen and it can happen slowly...especially distal descent. I agree with EqTrainer that you need to get a vet out.

[wingedmare]

It is possible for the horse to founder between shoeings. And I have seen horses founder and not show signs of lameness, but when the hoof grow out and we found signs of it and had the vet check; yup the horse had foundered. I think ALOT more horses founder than people realiaze and not all cases are life altering and tramatic as long as you pay close attention to what you are feeding and how your horse is trimmed.

[amastrike]

A mare at my barn was very lame... vet came out, diagnosed founder, took x-rays (not digital), left bute, all that. Farrier came out--"she's not foundering, she has an abscess." Did her feet--sure enough, it was an abscess, not founder. So if my farrier told me my horse had foundered/was foundering, I'd probably believe him. That particular vet.... not so much. Depends on the qualifications of the individual.

[BuddyRoo]

Feet can be tricky.

Without rads, I would be suspect that anyone could say 100% that a horse/pony had "foundered"--ie that there was rotation/dropping.

You could SUSPECT it......but I would be leery if someone just announced it as a diagnosis....all that practicing medicine w/o a license stuff, ya know?

[EqTrainer]

Feet can be tricky.

Without rads, I would be suspect that anyone could say 100% that a horse/pony had "foundered"--ie that there was rotation/dropping.

You could SUSPECT it......but I would be leery if someone just announced it as a diagnosis....all that practicing medicine w/o a license stuff, ya know?


Believe me BuddyRoo, there are plenty of times you pick up a foot and you are looking at a coffin bone. I am not joking. This is no time to be asserting your *opinion*. No, that is a coffin bone, there it is, barely covered by a dropped sole, I think it's about time farriers and trimmers SAID IT because believe me, they don't. They don't because clients turn into world class asshats when you mention the word laminitis, let alone founder. They don't because they are afraid somebody will accuse them of something, who knows what, the possible accusation list is long and really not productive to providing good care for the horse in question.

Please, let's not get into the "practicing medicine without a license" thing when it comes to farriers and trimmers, unless you would like to have to pay your VET to schedule your TRIMMER or your FARRIER. Unless you would like your vet to have to be present for your farrier to work. Unless you would like your farrier to have to say absolutely nothing at all to you, other than hold his hand out for the check. Saying what you need to say is hard enough, without people wanting to dance upon that line that is really not as fine as some people might like it to be. Horses end up suffering when people are afraid to say what they see. I have seen it more than I care to think about, it makes me feel ill.

I am sorry to be so blunt but this is a major issue for me, having been on ALL sides of this issue I can really see how that idea of "practicing medicine without a license" has got people scared into not doing the best they can for every horse they provide care for.

[findeight]

... is done by a farrier that ONLY cold shoes, is amazed that people are willing to pay over $100 for shoeing, and puts what I call Keg, QH shoes on her. I told them she needs wider web shoes especially with her jumping for the extra support..

I'd get a second opinion from a vet.

And change farriers to one that will put her in appropriate footwear
to better support her in her job. Not to mention a cold keg shoe may not exactly fit.

Oh, there are other things that can cause the ring or other abnormailty. Some are bad, many not so much so.

[BuddyRoo]

ET-I clearly hit a nerve. My apologies.

I realize that there are extreme situations--but that's not what the OP was talking about. My response was based on the OP.

If I personally suspected that my horse was laminitic or had foundered, there would be a veterinarian involved. I trim my own and have an IR/poss Cushings mare so I'm on alert all the danged time.

But anyway....unless we're talking total extremes or someone has xray vision...I would prefer rads before making a diagnosis.

That's one reason I'm very excited about this Pergolide/Cushings study my mare is going into...getting full rads of her feet. Will be great. Even though she's never been lame, I think she had a mild laminitic episode last year when she got PHF based on some of the hoof changes I saw at one point and I want to see new rads.

[Murphy's Mom]

A few years ago my farrier was out to trim and reset shoes and he told me that Murphy was in the middle of foundering. The vet confirmed a case of laminitis (luckily a minor case). Murphy's soles dropped but he did not rotate. He was never lame for even a second before or after the diagnosis. We never did figure out the cause but my vet said some horses can "founder on air". A year later his soles were back up to normal and he's never had another problem. I do keep a close eye on his weight and keep him off the spring grass though.

[webmistress32]

can never over stress the need to do your due diligence and / or get a 2nd or 3rd opinion.

[Skipper]

years ago, my old horse ( who my friend owns but keeps at my house) was mildly lame in one front foot and then it appeared to be the other front foot and then back to the first but again not horribly lame. We called the vet because thought it was time to get him out for a lameness exam and he said he better come out right away- could be foundering but he had none of the typical founder scernarios i.e. out on grass, put away hot, drinking cold warer while hot yada,yada....vet came out and did x-rays and said mild founder, slight rotation. tested for cushings sometime after that and he was positive for cushings ( again none of the typical symptoms for that either); has been on pergolide since and never a bad step since unless a abscess and even those are few and fair between....

[cloudyandcallie]

Anytime your farrier says the word "laminitis" or "founder" you should pick up the phone, call your vet and get xrays.

If it is a false alarm, it's worth the $ for the vet call.

If it is laminitis or founder, you can start treatment and prevent sinking. And save the horse's life.

[mp]

Feet can be tricky.

Without rads, I would be suspect that anyone could say 100% that a horse/pony had "foundered"--ie that there was rotation/dropping.

You could SUSPECT it......but I would be leery if someone just announced it as a diagnosis....all that practicing medicine w/o a license stuff, ya know?

Hah! Sometimes rads lie, too.

I had a horse that had had several abcesses in his front feet. Farrier said let's shoot some radiographs to find out what's going on. Sure enough, they showed some rotation ... in one foot. Now this horse (5 years old) had no changes in diet, routine, training, no injury that would cause excessive weight on one foot, nothing. And when I asked the farrier and the vet what would cause founder in one foot, I got a shrug and a "sometimes it happens." No, it doesn't "just happen." There is a reason and if it's not important enough for YOU to figure it out, I will.

So I kept asking questions and looking at his feet and asking questions. Until I found a farrier who said his feet could be out of balance, which would cause abcesses and make it look like he had rotated.

I trailered him down to that farrier. Rads were again shot and, sure enough, they showed slight rotation in the right front foot. Farrier pulled his shoes, rasped off about 1" to 1-1/4" in toe, put shoes on that were two sizes larger, and set the shoe back to put his foot back under his leg and let him grow some heel.

Reshot rads and *voila* no more rotation. What looked like rotation (i.e., coffin bone pointing downward and not in alignment with the hoof structure) was actually excess toe, which was also causing the abcesses. Horse walked off sound. Subsequent shoeings were done to be sure his foot stayed in balance (I got a new farrier) and he's had NO problems ever since.

OP, I'd suggest getting a different farrier to look at the horse. As my current farrier says, it's easy to shoe a horse right two or three times. To get it right year after year, isn't so easy and sometimes it takes fresh set of eyes to see what 's going on.

[jaimebaker]

I had two farriers say a filly of mine with odd rings on her feet had foundered. One went so far as to say 'she's foundered. Dropped sole and already rotated.' I had xrays pulled and not even the hint of rotation. Sorry, but farriers don't have xray vision. If you want to know the truth, xrays don't lie.

[Ritazza]

Rads DO lie sometimes. My last horse made a great escape one night (took his whole door off the hinges!!) and had a binge-fest on everything he could find - spent a week in the hospital, and later developed some funky growth rings that I assumed were related to that. The farrier I had working on him ended up being an idiot, but that's another story... the guy LOVES to make ALL horses have boxy, upright feet and after I had rads taken of my guy he went on and on about how he had somehow recently foundered and just LOOK at the angle of that coffin bone! When I pointed out to him that my horse's heels had been getting progressively more upright with every trim, and that was probably why his coffin bone was so tilted, he scoffed at me and asked "who is the professional here?" BTW, the specialist I was seeing at the time laughed when I told him that this farrier said my horse was foundering, after he looked at the horse and the rads himself...

This farrier full on crippled my horse during the next shoeing. I ended up having to put the poor old guy to sleep, and never forgave the idiot for what he did to him, deliberate or not.

[5]

My old Farrier told me horizontal rings were caused by stress (Physical and mental).
He may have used the term founder lines but then again I may just be remembering the explaination.
He said the lines on my mares feet were similar to a mini founder from getting hot or working especially hard that day. Never took a lame step from it.

I have noticed years later that when I am under mental stress I get horizontal dents on my nails. Some so deep that they can't be buffed out. So I guess he was right.

Isn't there a science to tell your health from the ridges and dots on your finger and toenails? I wonder if it could be applied to horses hooves?

[EqTrainer]

It's really about more than just rings. It's what shape the rings are (narrow at the toe, wider at the heel gets us wondering more than the opposite), it's the frequency, but more importantly, the condition of the overall foot and the sole itself.

If you have a bulging sole and some rings that are higher at the heel :eek:

And FWIW, rads are not the end all, because the bones are all relative to the hoof capsule. Think about what that means. In short (very short!) you can have a horse w/high heels and other bad trimming issues that is rotated on film. He is. But it's not from founder necessarily. Fix the trim, eliminate the rotation.

[Posting Trot]

Why would you not call the vet in this case?

[grandprixjump]

Why would you not call the vet in this case?

I never said we wouldn't.
But a little more info, the farrier ONLY cold shoes, put what I call QH keg shoes on, charges less than $100 to shoe, and is amazed that people are willing to pay more.
The mare needs wider web shoes on, and because she wasn't being ridden regularly till 3 months ago, was going 8+ weeks between shoeings. She has some growth rings in her feet that correspond with me starting to work her, and is over her shoes BIG TIME, before the farrier comes back out to redo her.

[Appassionato]

No, x-rays do not lie. There are differences in the quality of machines used, as well as hard copy vs. digital, as well as who is taking the x-ray. One lameness vet left my horse for dead, another saved his life. But no, I stand by my statement that x-rays don't lie. Sometimes it was just a terrible shot or the machine is sub-par. That all said, I agree with others about getting a second or even a third opinion from vets and farriers.

On the subject of whether or not a horse has shown up lame or not bewteen shoeings, and maybe there are signs of laminitis/founder, oh heck yes that can happen! Chronic bilateral lameness = sound horse. I know because I had one. No heat, no strong digital pulse, no difference in how he stood/walked/activity when turned out...nothing. Not ONE change in him, and I watched that horse like a hawk because another founder would mean euthanasia. Period.

That all said, I'm not insisting the horse in question has foundered and should be put down immediately. Far from it! The fact there are several opinions floating around about the horse (not here at COTH, where the horse is at and the people involved with him), it sounds like some investigation should be done before the horse really might suffer down the road. as others mentioned, it could be a simple balance issue that the horse is trying to correct w/ or w/o mild laminitic episodes. And of course, not every laminitic episode ends up as a founder. But enough continual/repetitive laminar damage/detachments are setting the horse up for trouble down the road. Today may be the turning point that prevents such troubles. That's all I'm trying to suggest.

As far as hot or cold shoeing, I'm not a farrier so it's going to be a bit unfair for me to speak on their behalf, but whether or not a shoe was hot or cold fitted has nothing to do with proper farriery nor the trim. BUT, I would prefer using a farrier that has a forge for the simple fact that some horses have very special needs and the forge can help the farrier shape the shoe more easily and if my guy was 10th in line for shoeing that day behind a bunch of hot shoeing? I'd like for my farrier to have something left in him to better forge a shoe for my horse. Truth be told because I know how hard their jkob is, I'd like to think that when they got home they could feed themselves with hands that aren't numb from banging them all day. ;)

The mare needs wider web shoes on, and because she wasn't being ridden regularly till 3 months ago, was going 8+ weeks between shoeings. She has some growth rings in her feet that correspond with me starting to work her, and is over her shoes BIG TIME, before the farrier comes back out to redo her.

Do you mean the mare needs a bigger shoe, or fit more full, or needs a wider webbed shoe? Are her feet spreading as she nears the end of that shoeing cycle? Like they are collapsing? I'm asking because putting her in a wider webbed shoe isn't going to stop spread that I'm aware of, and if she's coming out the back of the shoe she's possibly just short shod, and if her hooves are spreading over the entire shoe you've got deeper issues going on than just the shoes. Again, I'm not a farrier and I hope some of them chime in soon with clarifications on anything I'm mistaken on as well as have more suggestions for you.

[BornToRide]

Again essentially what EQ trainer said. Pointing out to horse owners that there may be a problem and recommending to consult a vet for further testing and diagnostics certainly is NOT practicing medicine without a license. I feel as a hoofcare and bodywork provider I am obligated to point out potential problems to the owner before they get worse.

One can certainly see outwards signs to determine whether or not a horse foundered, but a foundered horse would be considerably lame. If a horse was never lame, I doubt it actually foundered!

My old Farrier told me horizontal rings were caused by stress (Physical and mental). No quite - they are signs that the hoofwall growth is continueously stressed metabolically, usually from a diet that is too high in NSCs. Physical stresses generally show up as a single line somewhere on the hoofwall. Dietary stresses show up as regular ripple lines in the hoofwall, usually combined with other signs, like whiteline seperation, dropped sole, frequent thrush problems, excessive toe flaring, etc.

[LMH]

And FWIW, rads are not the end all, because the bones are all relative to the hoof capsule. Think about what that means. In short (very short!) you can have a horse w/high heels and other bad trimming issues that is rotated on film. He is. But it's not from founder necessarily. Fix the trim, eliminate the rotation.

I am confused by this-I thought with rotation you would actually have separation of the hoof wall....so simply lowering the heels won't correct that.


Certainly high heels can make a coffin bone looked pointed down, but for rotation would you not need more 'space' between the lower part of the hoof wall and leading edge of the coffin bone than the space higher up?

[matryoshka]

I've had to tell clients I suspect founder quite a few times. It's not fun, and sometimes the owners don't want to believe. Every time I have such a question, I strongly recommend they call their vet. I've been the first to notice Lyme's disease as well. I think it is our responsibilty to tell the owner what we think or suspect, explain why we think so, and suggest they call a vet to get a diagnosis. I'm always thrilled to be wrong in such cases. So far, I've been right each time. :no:

Once we've trimmed a particular horse a few times, we know his feet pretty well and are sensitive to any changes. The farrier can be the first one to notice a sign of impending problems. Ignoring his/her opinion by not calling a vet is a bad idea.

And as much as I don't like to do it, I also warn owners when the horses are getting dangerously fat. If I have to, I'll scare them about what founder is going to do to the horse and to ther pocketbook. I had one client tell me that she couldn't take the steps to reduce her horse's girth, so I told her she should start figuring out how she's going to treat him when he founders--plus save up some money for the vet bills. By the next trim, the horse was less fat and his crest was softer. Maybe I'm mean, and maybe I helped prevent that horse from foundering.

[jaimebaker]

I've had to tell clients I suspect founder quite a few times. It's not fun, and sometimes the owners don't want to believe. Every time I have such a question, I strongly recommend they call their vet. I've been the first to notice Lyme's disease as well. I think it is our responsibilty to tell the owner what we think or suspect, explain why we think so, and suggest they call a vet to get a diagnosis. I'm always thrilled to be wrong in such cases. So far, I've been right each time. :no:

Once we've trimmed a particular horse a few times, we know his feet pretty well and are sensitive to any changes. The farrier can be the first one to notice a sign of impending problems. Ignoring his/her opinion by not calling a vet is a bad idea.

And as much as I don't like to do it, I also warn owners when the horses are getting dangerously fat. If I have to, I'll scare them about what founder is going to do to the horse and to ther pocketbook. I had one client tell me that she couldn't take the steps to reduce her horse's girth, so I told her she should start figuring out how she's going to treat him when he founders--plus save up some money for the vet bills. By the next trim, the horse was less fat and his crest was softer. Maybe I'm mean, and maybe I helped prevent that horse from foundering.

But it's one thing to suspect a horse is going through something and to mention it to an owner or make suggestions. But to say 'this horse has foundered' like it's a fact when the horse hasn't taken the first lame step is jumping the gun a bit in my opinion. I expect my farrier to tell me any signs of anything suspicious. And I certainly appreciate it and don't ignore him.

[grandprixjump]

Vet was out today and shot 2 dig rad's of each front foot. Only problem was she needs her shoes set back a little to ease breakover, absolutely NO FOUNDER. The owner was asking if I was gonna say "I told you so" Personally I was just happy there was nothing really wrong with her. The new foot growth of when I started working her was correct, while the older growth was a little forward of where it should have been. Was suggested to set shoes back a little, take a little extra toe off, and maybe get her Natural Balance shoes.

[EqTrainer]

I am confused by this-I thought with rotation you would actually have separation of the hoof wall....so simply lowering the heels won't correct that.


Certainly high heels can make a coffin bone looked pointed down, but for rotation would you not need more 'space' between the lower part of the hoof wall and leading edge of the coffin bone than the space higher up?


Not necessarily. You can do a lot of things with nippers/rasp/hoof knife :lol: think about it.

[jaimebaker]

Vet was out today and shot 2 dig rad's of each front foot. Only problem was she needs her shoes set back a little to ease breakover, absolutely NO FOUNDER. The owner was asking if I was gonna say "I told you so" Personally I was just happy there was nothing really wrong with her. The new foot growth of when I started working her was correct, while the older growth was a little forward of where it should have been. Was suggested to set shoes back a little, take a little extra toe off, and maybe get her Natural Balance shoes.

It's worth the money for the piece of mind of the xrays. I'm glad she's founder free. :)

[AKB]

X rays don't always show the whole story. One of our horses had an unexplained front foot lameness 2 years ago. The vet school vet mentioned laminitis as a possibility but felt it was more likely a recurrence of the horse's navicular disease. We were then sent to the vet school farrier for a couple of shoeings. A few months after the onset of the lameness, the vet school farrier noticed a stretching of the laminae. He immediately located the vet/lameness specialist in the vet school and had him come back to look at the feet. Together, they diagnosed laminitis. The horse had metabolic testing (ACTH, insulin, glucose) which was inconclusive. We started pergolide and thyroid, and have not had any further laminitis. The x-rays continued to be normal throughout all of this.

I am grateful to the farrier for his noticing the problem, and then helping me through the process of getting it sorted out. I wish farriers and vets would work together more often, rather than picking at each other.

[jaimebaker]

If a horse even has the slightest rotation, it may not be immediately evident in xrays but the horse can be in so much pain they can hardly move. I have a mare that foundered almost 10 years ago. The amount of rotation was TINY but she could hardly walk. A horse can have laminitis and show no rotation of the coffin bone at all. Depends on how minor the laminitic episode is. That's not what happened here. The horse was sound and the farrier said they had foundered. Same thing that occurred with my horse. If a horse is sound and the xrays are normal, I'm sorry, but the xrays aren't lying.

[SandyHTF]

Anytime your farrier says the word "laminitis" or "founder" you should pick up the phone, call your vet and get xrays. If it is a false alarm, it's worth the $ for the vet call. If it is laminitis or founder, you can start treatment and prevent sinking. And save the horse's life.

I wholeheartedly agree. I've had a horse founder and it is one of the most frightening and long lasting problems you can ever have. It is accurate that a farrier can get some pretty good hints from hoof growth that a horse has been laminitic or foundered, the bottom line though is, in all but the more severe cases you need a set of xrays to really tell what is going on with the coffin bone.

My older mare was mildly laminitic over time without showing any lameness. She had rings in her hooves that were written off to feed changes, etc. Even the vet thought she was fine when asked.

My farrier at the time made two mistakes... one, bar shoes with no frog support and second and ultimately the clincher, put shoes on her without allowing any room between sole and shoe. (I still have pics of the ring of the shoe embedded in her sole :( )

I had the vet out next day when she exhibited signs of serious lameness (frankenhorse he called it) and he pulled shoes and xrayed.

Very long story at least a little shorter... What was finally determined was that she had had mild inflammation over time that caused some rotation and the shoe job at the end was the insult to injury that tipped her over the edge leaving her a 4-5 on one and a 6 on the other.

It took a year of specialized shoeing to get us over the hump, though we will always deal with the problems associated with "laminitic horses." The fact that it was a mechanical founder doesn't matter I'm told, once foundered always susceptible.

I hope never to see one of my horses go through it again, but if ever faced with the "hints" again, I will xray first and ask questions later. The corrective shoeing alone, if you are lucky enough to have someone qualified to do it; will make the xrays seem cheap by comparison.

Some things to keep in mind: if you think your horse is foundering call your vet and competent farrier immediately. Bed them up to their ears and keep them in. Remove all grain and rich hay from the diet... that alone can help keep inflammation down and your horse far more comfortable.

If you have any doubt as to the urgency of the problem, think Barbaro. :(

[LMH]

Not necessarily. You can do a lot of things with nippers/rasp/hoof knife :lol: think about it.

I still don't follow-that still would not be 'rotation' as I understand it.:confused:

To me, rotation involves some kind of separation-not just imbalance...which high lows, low heels, etc would be....even if SO high the coffin bone points downward....imbalance, yes...rotation...no.

[dwblover]

I would simply get digital radiographs and not worry anymore about it. They will give you a definitive answer as to the condition of the horse's hoof. My gelding has, in the past, had a flat, dropped-looking sole. Two farriers told me to be very careful as they thought the sole was dropping due to founder. So I of course had the vet come out and do about a million digital radiographs from 100 different angles, and he was picture perfect. The radiographs did tell us however that his angles were way off and now that we have them corrected his foot is gaining concavity. Radiographs are always money well spent. Even if they are perfect they'll give you something to compare against in the future.