Shivers horse owners...

[Rebmik]

Yesterday afternoon I took my 6 yo Shire w/ shivers to a different pasture to let him graze. He was feeling good and started cantering, which isn't graceful, but he really did look pretty, was doing flying changes and everything.
However, he went to turn a corner (not a sharp turn at all) and his inside leg went out from under him. He didn't go all the way down. But looked uncomfortable and weak behind. He did this again going the other direction. You can tell it rattles him and his confidence.
Footing was good, dry, flat.
Has anyone else experienced this? Usually I don't see his forward movement impacted by shivers, just his lateral and backing up. I ride him and it really makes me a like unsure as well about him physically, like during a spook, and maybe it's part of the reason he does spook, because he's not sure that he will be able to get away????:confused:

[Lieslot]

Before I had my horse diagnosed with shivers, I'd go nuts pulling my hair out questioning why my horse would fall in the snow continuously.
No fail, snow on the ground, a trot, a canter and we had a full bam body slam on the ground.

I took him in thinking he had EPM but he was diagnosed with shivers and I am now convinced this is all related. The hindleg slips underneath his body and he goes down fully.
My vet & farrier have discussed him with regards to the falling and since we shoe him with borium + pins + studholes. Even in summer and hard ground he needs the additional traction. In snow or muddy conditions I turn him out with a good size screw-in stud and brushing boots alround.
I know many will declare me nuts turning a horse out with studs, but I say to myself : what's the worst of two evils, horse continuously slips with hinds and slams its full body on the floor, risking a serious pelvis injury or turning out with studs and risking him catching himself or kicking his mate... I decided in my case the latter evil, the less evil.

Since the added hindshoe traction the falling in pasture issue has been completely resolved. I have been VERY lucky this horse never injured or broke his pelvis or other. The falls in pasture have been numerous, I'm talking about at least 15-20 times+. Barefoot behind will probably never be an option for my guy anymore, as the slipping was the worst when barefoot.


Other thing I occasionally run into under the saddle is his shivers hindleg (one leg was diagnosed worse then the other) partially giving way underneath him, some kind of stifle slip. If it happens I immediately go back to walk, walk him a bit more and put him in. I've notice after a slip like this he might hop a little lame for a few minutes, but will be sound again 1/2hr later. And even if he stays sound after the slip, he gets a little nervous, worried and hesitant as the slip usually surprises him as much as it surprises me.
I've discussed this with my vet too, and vet said, shivers is most likely the cause of this all.

So in answer to your post, yes, it is likely to be shivers-related regardless of how dry your footing was.

[goeslikestink]

keep the horse mobile will help ollie as in here

http://www.pulsephotographic.com/gallery/index.gallery.php?gid=302&img=25

was a grade A show jumper now does lots of thing low keyed shiver is a nero logical mussle spasms of the hind legs and quarters in ollies case as hes 25yrs old if we were to stop riding him he would seize up, as hes fit and always has been kept in that condition to change his ways as normal pasture bod it wuld effect him moreso as wont be as mobile

so hes fed on a diet with joint supplements and conditioning cubs by spillers
no doubt when his times up its up hes been jumped by the best of them international and repesented GB comonly know round here as the beast as on the floor hes not an easy horse to handle and wouldnt be for a novice to ride hes the most excellent horse you could get his knowledge has tuaght our debs heaps this boy can spring from a trot to top of wings with ease but due to his age and now he has a much quieter life

shoes are a must with a horse with shivers,as it effects there balance so a good farrier and good vet is warranted and and get a nutritionist reccomended via the vets to access your horse and get the right diet for him this way all areas are covered

also makesure if he has a fit of shivers to keep him warm and call a vet imdedately as he might need bute do not try to move the horse when he has mussle spasms wrapp up with rugs pronto this will warm the horse so he can move then keep him in stable till it passes

can be from leg movement to whole body shiviering hence why it called shivers looks like horse is cold when an attack comes and th e horse can often lose balance and fall
or can if say standing around look sleepy then fall most horses if sleepy ctach themsleves shiver horses dont thats why they are dangerous to ride as it can happen anywhere any time

[Lieslot]

shoes are a must with a horse with shivers Totally agree, I had to come to this conclusion too!


Btw, GLS, Ollie is G O R G E O U S !!!! :yes: :)

[Melissa.Hare.Jones]

My 15 yr old Han gelding has shivers and has improved dramatically with chiropractic, acupuncture and homeopathy (plus the usual attention to teeth and feet for optimal balance info to the brain). Three and a half years ago he would fall down on the slightest turn or uneven/slippery footing while playing my level field (I didn't ride him then... already banged up enough, thank you!). Following semi-annual visits with Dr. Judith Shoemaker (five, so far) (www.judithshoemaker.com (http://www.judithshoemaker.com)), he hasn't wiped out in almost two years and is moving at all gaits with dramatically improved coordination.

I do ride him now, though only at walk and trot since his canter is still very awkwardly lateral and downward transitions to trot are a bit funky. Despite that, and the occasional classic hitch of the hind leg when backing or moving his hindquarters sideways, it's been an amazing transformation. Even after seeing how much good Dr. Shoemaker has done for many horses in my circle over the past 14 years, I'm impressed anew!

He's barefoot, by the way... feet like iron. (Wish I could say the same for my two OTTBs!)

[Lieslot]

My guy gets monthly acupuncture and VOM too, but I didn't necessarily think that was what improved him. Of course we try so much at once with these guys, that in the end it probably is a combination of a lot of things.
Definitely the continuous work and strenghtening helps. My horse has got to be in work virtually 6 out of 7. Give him a week off and it'll take me 2 or more weeks to be back where we left.

Melissa out of curiosity what homeopathic remedy do you use?
I also supplement with CoQ10, which works by improving the function of the mitochondria, which in turn produces energy in cells. The CoQ10 enchances the activity of the Vit E in the body, which thins the myelin sheath which covers the spinal cord which in turn is important in nerve messaging, as pressure from bone on the spinal column will interfere with nerve impulses to the limbs, which 'could' be disturbed in horses with shivers.

Also another shivers poster on here reported that in the UK some horses are being treated with Gabapendin,... not enough results out yet to know whether truly effective or not.

PS, I wished I wash closer to Dr Shoemaker, she has indeed got a great reputation and I'd love to get the chance getting my guys seen by her once too.

[Rebmik]

liesalot
I was the person that Dr Valberg recommended Gabapentin, the rx was soooo expensive that I didn't get it and an saving up for a chiro/accu visit.
We have to continue to educate each other and share successes and frustrations, because guarantee, you don't have any horse friends that experience this...I know I don't.

[Lieslot]

Sorry Rebmik, after I posted it I was actually wondering if you weren't the person that had brought this med up.
Sorry to hear it's so expensive.
You are right we need to continue to share info amongst each other, as even vets are often still at a loss with shivers horses in what to recommend and what not.
We should make our own support group. :)

[DLee]

I'm not sure why my gelding never fell down, (at least that I saw), but I'm so thankful he didn't.
Just wanted to lend some support rebmik, I've wondered how you and your horse were doing. :sadsmile:

[Rebmik]

thanks for the support!
He's seems okay...took him for a long hand walk yesterday, down a pretty steep him in the woods that was covered with leaves and no slips. I am getting ready to go ride now and am not sure if I'll try the hill riding him or not. That's what is so frustrating about this disease!
When funds are flowing a little better I am going to try the chiro/accup route.
Those of you with shivers horses, do your horses have multitude of other "issues" as well? What breeds? Mine is a Shire. When buying him I was thinking "hardy" hmmmmmmm.
When he is cross tied he will "park out" up front. Within the last 3 months he has started being girthy, but wasn't sure if it was because his shivers was bothering him or wondering if he has ulcers:confused: (never thought I would have to worry about a horse having ulcers!)

[Melissa.Hare.Jones]

Rebmik - My guy went through a brief parking-out period this summer, but I haven't seen it in recent months.

Lieslot - I'll write down the remedy info when I go to the barn tonight. Dr. Shoemaker travels to NJ frequently... give her office a call for scheduling.

[Lieslot]

Those of you with shivers horses, do your horses have multitude of other "issues" as well?
Well, some horses just seem to have a list of issues and others don't.

My shivers horse (an 18.2hh WB), is also a roarer, crappy front feet and for sure weak hind end, as in weak stifles. Luckily enough so far his issues stop there. From a chiro/acu-point of view, my vet always says he actually feels really great, the only point that shows up is general arthritis, weak hind end, which for those familiar with acu are UB40 (& UB24), point in the indent below hamstrings going down towards the hock (not sure how else to describe this spot), in between sessions I do some acupressure there myself. Other then that from a musculo-skeletal point of view this horse feels better then most FEI-level competition horses she treats. Hence my hesitation, when discussing acu, I think it'll help the horse feel better overal, but may not necessarily help the shivers as such. Then again a horse that has a general feeling of well being, will move better, .....

My other guy, who's not got shivers, another big WB, has a multitude of issues too, ex-Afibber with heart valvular dysfunction, hock & fetlock arthritis (thank god we got this well under control), girthy (treated for ulcers no difference), copd and a left neck stiffness which no chiro ever managed to fix.

Horses will never be perfect, even if we think we have some that are close to 100% healthy. But then I think of it as such: if they were to put me through a bonescan today, I swear a lot painspots would show up. How many people out there can say they'd have a clear bonescan, most of us have aches and pains too and continue active lives. So we do the best we can to support our horses with their known issues, keep them comfortable and foremost continue to enjoy them.
In the past I used to feel so sorry for my heart/copd etc guy each time I went out there to see him. And I swear he felt my 'feeling-sorry' for him, as I could see the dullness in his eyes when I was around him, head down, big sigh type of thing, and he couldn't even be bothered to try under the saddle. They are sensitive and pick up on our emotions. So I figured better to be compassionate with them rather then sorry, and help them through their issues the best we can. Just the fact that I changed my attitude towards him when riding with constant praising, turned him into a better more enjoyable riding horse. He just felt my frustration and kind of gave up himself. It stays frustrating, but if we do what we can, then our horses are lucky horses.

I can't comment on the shivers & girthy-ness, but 'parked out' is often common. My guy won't stand parked out on the cross ties, but he will do repeated parked out stretches, fronts out, hinds under and lean back on his hinds. He seems to enjoy these stretches very much and will do so each time on the cross ties. Probably releases some tension in the hind end.

[Lieslot]

Lieslot - I'll write down the remedy info when I go to the barn tonight. Dr. Shoemaker travels to NJ frequently... give her office a call for scheduling.
Thank you, no rush. :)
I just browsed her website, I'll see if she comes out my way at times, I always thought you had to travel in.

[Melyni]

Have any of you tried any Omega 3 fatty acids, namely DHA, on a shivers horse?

Would anyone with a Shivers horse be interested in trying some DHA?
MW

[candico]

I tried the Wellpride fish oil supplement on three of my horses. One is a shivers/EPSM gelding although it sounds like he has it much more mildly than these other posters... and another was his sister who is EPSM but no shivers - more likely to tie up... The last is a thoroughbred that has terrible hoof growth and quality (who I'm now trying LinPro with!)
Anyway, after three months I really can't say I saw any difference. I'm a big believer in fish oil for humans, but just didn't see the results in the horses that I had hoped for even at twice the recommended dosage.
FWIW

[Lieslot]

I feed 3 to 4 oz of flax oil every day (have done so for 6 month +), not sure how much omega 3 it contains and how different it is from fish oil :confused:

[poopoo]

My guy has improved a lot just from adding 2500 IU of vitamin E to his diet. Are you sure that's not his stifle when riding? Estrone cures mine of that.

[Rebmik]

My Shire's daily diet is 2 quart TC Low Starch, 4 oz omega horseshine, 2 oz magnezium, 2 oz selenium vit e, 3-4 cups veg oil and analysized to best suit epsm horse alfalfa hay.
I am kinda afraid to stop the oil since muscle biopsy was neg for epsm, b/c seems like he's not doing so much of the classic hind end leg hike thing and not sure what to attribute that to...
I agree all horses have their share of problems...I've just been fortunate in the past to have really EASY horses...meaning they can hang out in the pasture, pull them out to go do an event/foxhunt/trail ride...back in pasture and no issues....NOT this guy!
However, my farrier told me last weekend (and I keep repeating how he said it in my mind) "stop worrying about him and just enjoy him" my husband has said this several times...sometimes it just takes someone else for you to "hear it". When my farrier said it, it just clicked...I am doing what I can, now ENJOY HIM! He is a really cool horse...went out for a long trail ride just me, my horse and my dog Friday kinda puts stuff in perspective!:)

[4Martini]

A little off topic- but what signs made you worry about your horse having shivers?

I have a 19yo OTTB who I occasionally find with his back legs trembling - ususally it's either a little chilly (but often not really that cold) or something stressful is going on. If I put him under the heat lamps for a while and calm him down it goes away. He does snatch his hind feet up when you pick them and is not the best at having them shoed. I've always thought that it was strange some of the days he was shivering since it wasn't that cold. Do these symptoms seem consistent with what you've seen. He does also occasionally take a bad step in back (a few times a ride.) Should i be worried about this, or just rug him up more? I'd love your thoughts and info on what symptoms you first noticed in your horses.

[Rebmik]

4martini
You know when you see a horse with shivers that it has nothing to do with the temperature.
It is a very odd movement...Dr AJ Neumann, Draft Horse Journal, describes it as " in addition to the characteristic hiking of the hind limbs while backing or turning in a tight circle, the tail lifts and trembles." the tail lifting and trembling helps distinguish it from stringhalt. My horse does this while standing still as well. But not moving forward, never is lame.

[Lieslot]

4martini, this is very likely a mild form of shivers you are describing.

The shivering hind end you describe, my horse has only done that twice in the time I've owned him, and that when bringing him in when he somehow got wet under his blanket and he probalby was cold too. But as Rebmik said cold has nothing to do with the shivers really.

My horse cannot hold his hinds long enoug to be shod (he can barely hold them up long enough to be trimmed), so for shoeing he gets sedation.
The snatching of his hindfeet is very much the case with my horse too.
Else you wouldn't realize anything is wrong with him. He can back under the saddle greatly. I actually condition him by backing him one bodylength uphill or up an incline every day and he has no issues with that.

I'm still often thrown between thinking, no he doesn't have shivers, just weak stifles, and then again I think no he doesn't have weak stifles just shivers. But after having had a lameness work-up at my clinic, the headvet diagnosed him with very mild shivers and said if he stabilizes as is, it'll never be a real problem, more a nuissance with regards to the shoeing.
And he's right, if it weren't for the initial falling in snow, that freaked me out, but again that's an issue of the past now.

A simple neuro/lameness exam from a vet will most likely tell you the answer. When we took my guy, at first, other then not being able to flexiontest his hinds, as he couldn't hold up the leg long enough, there appeared absolutely nothing wrong with him. But the examining vet was astute and said to the vet tech, keep at it, keep circling, keep backing etc. until we got him at a point he started getting stressed and panicky. And that's when it really showed up. When you back him under high stress/fear, then his hind feet will not get out of the way quick enough, so he'll step on the toes of his hinds with his fronts and he'll start kicking out with a hindleg in an uncontrollable manner, but will not shiver or tail quiver.

I think a lot of shivers horses only truly show symptoms when they are worked up or in some sort of panic. Stress affects them adversely.
For example when out hacking my horse at times he gets in a panic if we come across another group of horses that would be trotting or cantering away from us. Then the uncontrollable hindleg kicking will start too. Pointless to tell him off, as it's uncontrollable.

In most cases if the shivers stays at a stable level, you learn how to handle the horse and other then that it isn't all that detrimental.
Honestly I love my guy to bits and would buy him again, will all I know of him today. He's really capable, provided I don't stress him out.

When I bought this guy, he was vetted at one of the leading universities in the Netherlands, and no vet picked up on the shivers at all, nor did I when I went to try him out. The months I had him in the Netherlands prior to moving to the US, he was absolutely fine. The falling only showed up after the move. He was quite traumatized by the overseas move, new enviroment, different climate etc, and then out of the blue the falling and not being able to hold up a hindleg showed up.
I'm still baffled that at first when he came to me in the Netherlands, I had him shod allround by his regular farrier no issues.
A lot has to do with trust (stress). I can pick out his hinds, clean out studholes and screw in studs no issues, but a stranger will never be able to pick up a hindleg for just even a splitsecond. As he'll get distrustfull of the stranger, start worrying and the uncontrollable hindleg kicking will start again. With me this never happens.

The last 2 shoeings have been a real break-thru. My vet thinks he's finally starting to trust my farrier & the shoeing environment better, so stays more relaxed and needs less drugs. A year ago we would get 20 minutes out of 1cc Domosedan + 0.7cc Torbugesic. The last shoeing was amazing, we got over 30 minutes with only .4cc Domosedan + 0.2 Torbugesic. Our hopes is to once be able to shoe him on just ace.

[EqTrainer]

Have any of you tried any Omega 3 fatty acids, namely DHA, on a shivers horse?

Would anyone with a Shivers horse be interested in trying some DHA?
MW


Sure. If you want to do a study on it, sign me up. I have a shivers horse here.

[poopoo]

I'm telling you, try the vitamin E. I have two horses with shivers and ever since I started supplementing them with vitamin E, the shivers has improved dramatically. I am only giving 2500 IU, and the articles I have read suggest 5000 IU, like in an EPM horse. I haven't even had to change their diet - I thought I'd try the vit E first. Then, I give the gelding Estrone for his stifles - I'm not sure if that is secondary to the shivers or a separate issue. He's good to go after that.

[Rebmik]

poopoo
Would the selenium & vit e supplement I am giving my horse be enough?
What I give him 20,000/IU Vitamin E, 70ppm selenium - I give him 4 oz/day

lieslot
I'm with you on the "I would buy him again thing", however would have
been nice to know something about this!!! We did prepurchase also and
my guy actually did the whole hind end thing, couldn't do left hind leg
flexion test. Vet attributed flexion to owner not being able to handle
this big guy. The hind end leg movement was not addressed. I asked
previous owner when I got him and she said he has been doing it and
that it was something draft horses do when they are going through a
growth spirt or out of work for a bit...no big deal...my continued research
concluded otherwise!!!
He has to be heavily sedated to be just trimmed, can't imagine attempting to put shoes on. I can't even clean his hind hooves. Although he tries to bend at his fetlock resting his hoove just enough so I can attempt to pick it... he really tries soooooo hard to work with you, you can see him get frustrated at his big body!

[DLee]

FWIW, my gelding showed the classic hindleg Shivers sign for about the first year or so (he was four). Then it kind of progressed (or regressed, or something) into an awkward gait. So towards the end, you might not have thought he actually had Shivers, if you hadn't seen him in the beginning.

[Lieslot]

Correct poopoo, Vit E is definitely first line attack in shivers horses. My vet gave me Elevate for a couple of months (http://www.kppusa.com/elevatews.html), but it's rather pricey so then I continued with another natural vit E by GP supplements and give him that daily, combined with the CoQ10, which even enhances it's function.

DLee, that's great to read that your horse's symptoms faded. There is always "what if it starts to get worse", is there a way back? I have read on this BB from other shivers owners where the horse just got really bad and very little you can do about it.
I doubt there will ever be a cure for it, but if only we could figure out what can at least stabilize the condition.

[Lieslot]

Then, I give the gelding Estrone for his stifles - I'm not sure if that is secondary to the shivers or a separate issue.
I'm tossing with this idea. I might give this a go. Seems quite a low of people have succes with weak stifles & estrogen.
How often do you do the estrogen injections?
Are these IM or IV injections (not that I would do them myself, I'd get my vet out, but just curious, as I know little about estrogen injections)

Doesn't it seem like most shivers horses present as a horse with weak stifles or actually having weak stifles, or is it just my guy?

[poopoo]

Estrone is IM, usually about once a month. You can get it from the vet and give IM in the neck yourself, unless you don't do IM injections (but it's easy to do yourself and a lot cheaper).
I don't know about the connection of shivers and stifles, but my mare who has it has horrible stifles, and I have to get them injected occassionally just to be pasture sound. My gelding's stifles are good for about a month after Estrone.

[DLee]

DLee, that's great to read that your horse's symptoms faded. There is always "what if it starts to get worse", is there a way back? I have read on this BB from other shivers owners where the horse just got really bad and very little you can do about it.
I doubt there will ever be a cure for it, but if only we could figure out what can at least stabilize the condition.

Sorry, I probably misled. They changed, but didn't improve. In fact I had him put down last spring, he was only 9. :( He was definitely one of those who had a lot of issues, related to or because of Shivers, I'm not sure. He tended to get a lot of abscesses in his front feet, which made it almost impossible for him to do anything except try and balance. It was heartbreaking as he was the sweetest horse ever. Sorry about that. I just really feel for you all dealing with it, as I know how frustrating it is, to have a really bad case, anyway.

[kelwin]

Hi Everyone,

I have been reading all of this info on shivers with great interest. I have an 11 yr old WB that has shivers in his front legs. Has anyone ever heard of this??? He does tend to trip quite a bit on uneven ground, but it has never seemed to bother him when working... until now. I have been trying to teach him flying changes for some time now and he gets quite panicked and nervous. I am wondering if this is related to the shivers? He has also been very difficult his entire career in the connection. I have always thought it was from his very big neck and thick throat latch, but I have always wondered if there was something else. He is also quite challenging to get up off of the forehand (much more challenging than most horses).
I have also heard that shivers is heredetary, my horse is by Don Gregory and I have heard of a couple of other horses by Don Gregory with shivers.... interesting.
I have had a lot of success with giving him Magnesium, Vit. e and Selenium. I can really tell a difference when he is not on it. Smartpacks carries it. It is called E-Se-Mag. I feel that the Magnesium helps to keep his muscles loose.

If anyone out there has a horse with front end shivers, I would love to hear about it.

Thanks!

[Lieslot]

DLee, I am so sorry, I did indeed misread your post, I got a bit confused about it and thought you meant improvement. So sorry to hear you had to let go of him. Quality of life is important to them and I'm sure you did the right thing. :sadsmile: