Sandro Hit line - hind leg engagement

[back in the saddle]

I've read several things regarding how the Sandro Hit line needs more hind end engagement. (generally speaking of course)

Can someone explain this to me? What exactly does this mean? I have a Sandro Hit line filly and I'm trying to evaluate her hind leg. I don't know if she's good or needs more engagement.

As I look at the stallion videos from the recent Hanoverian Stallion licensing, I'm confused. They all look nice. Thanks

[ticofuzzy]

I have had 3 Sandro Hits, two of which have good hind legs (but they are out of a mare with a great hind leg) and the third has the typical SH hind leg. They are very flashy and the average person would look at the hind leg and be smitten, but if you are very educated you will see that the hind leg flails about back there and they have a lot of animation and pushing power, but not a lot of carrying power.
Getting these horses to take a half halt and not curl up and go backwards away from the bit can be a challenge. Their hind legs want to step away from the bit when you use the reins. They are very tricky to ride and keep connected.
One cannot necessarily look at an unbroke horse or even one at training level and deem it having a great hind leg - you have to see how they are going to use their hind legs when it comes time to do real work.

[Edgewood]

Eliza,

How would you say your 3 SH compare with offspring of his sons (I believe you have a Stedinger young horse under saddle). In regards to connection, hind leg, etc?

[not again]

As a breeder I would also watch out for straight front legs with sufficient bone, and balanced hooves of the correct size.

[ticofuzzy]

The Stedinger has a good hind leg and is very easy to ride and get a nice connection. Her hind leg is not has "exciting" to watch as the SH's but she takes a half halt correctly and keeps her hind legs in a place that they could bear weight. She is a dramatically easier horse to ride than the SH with the flashy hind legs that want to be all over the place.

The trick is to watch these horses in something other than medium gaits. They are built to do medium gaits and look spectacular doing them, but what happens when you try to collect them?
(not to get off subject, but this is my exact question about QB. I am reserving judgement on him until I see him doing something other than young horse stuff).

All of my SH's have straight front legs with sufficient bone and balanced hooves of the correct size. The Stedinger's feet are a tad small, but very correct.

[Edgewood]

The Stedinger has a good hind leg and is very easy to ride and get a nice connection. Her hind leg is not has "exciting" to watch as the SH's but she takes a half halt correctly and keeps her hind legs in a place that they could bear weight. She is a dramatically easier horse to ride than the SH with the flashy hind legs that want to be all over the place.

The trick is to watch these horses in something other than medium gaits. They are built to do medium gaits and look spectacular doing them, but what happens when you try to collect them?
(not to get off subject, but this is my exact question about QB. I am reserving judgement on him until I see him doing something other than young horse stuff).

All of my SH's have straight front legs with sufficient bone and balanced hooves of the correct size. The Stedinger's feet are a tad small, but very correct.

Super, thanks for taking the time to provide more information! Especially since you are riding these guys, you can provide good feedback (I have never ridden any S line offspring). :D

[sixpoundfarm]

I would be curious to know others thoughts on this SH son's movement.
(Not meant to bash or beat this guy up... I think he has some very good qualities.)

http://www.fp.agenturserver.eu/kempkehof/englisch/hengste_sancisco.htm

[Reiter]

I have a friend in Germany who bred to Sancisco this year. She saw him in person and was very impressed with his movement and his temperament. I think Sancisco is already showing S dressage. My friend doesn't really care for SH (especially his temperament) and said Sancisco inherited all the good SH characteristics and none of the bad! :)

[grayarabpony]

Interesting, I haven't seen a horse posthole in back like that before.

From what I saw on the video I didn't like that horse's hind leg action one bit.

[FriesianX]

I've seen a few now, and what I noticed is that they get very WIDE behind, which is also a lack of engagement. You really see it in the lengthenings or medium work. Very nice front ends though!

[Horsecrazy27]

Could the "wide" behind just be a strength issue---aren't most of these horses young?

Help me train my eye, I didn't see it too bad on this boy, but have seen 2 SH that were REALLY wide behind, that did quite well at the stallion testings. (Like Champion) I was thinking it was just tight frame---young horse, tons of engagement and nowhere to go. ??

Please help me learn if I'm off.

[Tiki]

I've seen a couple that got so wide behind that they actually put their hind feet down outside and beside their front feet in trot so that both feet on the same side were on the ground together with the hind foot beside the front foot.

[grayarabpony]

Could the "wide" behind just be a strength issue---aren't most of these horses young?

Help me train my eye, I didn't see it too bad on this boy, but have seen 2 SH that were REALLY wide behind, that did quite well at the stallion testings. (Like Champion) I was thinking it was just tight frame---young horse, tons of engagement and nowhere to go. ??

Please help me learn if I'm off.

It will be interesting to hear what others say -- it certainly isn't fair to put a final judgement on a horse from such a short amount of video. He is in a tight frame at the trot.

[fannie mae]

hindleg engagement is a very general term and often misused for the good or the bad - a misleading interpretation that many times doesn't really describe what is meant. i would rather subdivide it in different sections since in order to really value a horse's hindleg "quality" (what the common use of "engagement" actually means but simply doesn't describe) as such takes more than simply "engagement".

1. footing with respect to speed - fast or slow hindleg
2. footing with respect to width when looked at from behind
3. activity with respect to reaching under/width of step when looked at from aside
4. activity with respect to "action" it takes/angles
5. hight of hocks/longleggishness
6. how does it function in the sum of its parts?

the latter being the most important and simply not an equasion to come up with by simply adding up the first five components. in order to come up with a clear answer to 6) another major observation needs to be taken and that is "back":
how do the first four components arrive at the back and are they transferred further through the back?
as only now we are talking impulsion.

great engl definition can be found here (really worth studying):
http://www.globaldressageforum.com/pdf_doc/glossaryjudgingterms2008.pdf

check out "impulsion" and look at note three as this is where the "schwung" comes in and that to me (very personal assumption and please feel free to disagree) makes the entire exterieur being more or less desirable.

with respect to SH (since this is what the topic is about) there's no doubt about #4. the easiest to recognized and exactly what earns them (the SHs in general) the "flashy" look.
says nothing about quality of the hindleg as such since action alone doesn't mean anything.
question remains if the input being made from the footing as such is being transfered via the back and further out through the horse.
usually #1 isn't an issue with these horses, either.

with respect to #2 this is an issue i have doubts about myself again and again - nothing that can be attached to a certain bloodline of horses, it can be seen all over the place in all kind of horses. i often tend to think it is being regarded too high specially when looking at young horses (licensing candidates) since i personally tend to say it is something that has to do with balance and can improve with maturity.
then again i have seen impressive movers under saddle (really "impulsive") and yet they are wide behind - so what?
obviously "width" doesn't seem to prevent them to develop swing and carry it as such?
so to me, this is the hardest part with respect to value of influence.

no #1 is s.th. that devides the future dressage horse from many jumpers - both need a "good" hindleg but obviously slow footing doesn't prevent many jumpers from excellent performance. it does so, however, with respect to collected work as in piaffe/passage - you can achieve a lot working these horses in hand and i have seen intl GP horses of what i consider "weak" hindleges - yet, great in hand work turned them into rrelyable GP winners.
however, there are only a handful of masters of in hand work on this planet, thus, i'ld rather go for a hindleg of "quicker" footing by nature if i had the choice (not that i will ever ride GP :-)
and yes, there are horses of "slow" hindlegs (of popular lines) doing greatly under saddle after all. pi&pa isn't all we ride, is it? :-)

no #3 is an issue of "stiffness"/lazyness(?) or sometimes an issue of length in the back.
however, even the simple assumption a longer back might hinder the horse from stepping under farther can not be made. as there are many powerful movers (and i mean "powerful" not "active") of longer backs and yet they are of crazy impulsion.
the reason i don't buy the often heard arguments weltmeyer's are of "poor" hindlegs because they are long in the back - rather the contrary is the case. they do show impulsion despite their length.
which takes us back to the only valid argument of how it all works in the sum of their parts.


a perfect horse is hard it find and many issues can be helped simply by training (according to the pyramid of training in that above link)
a "good" hindleg activity is as hard to define, too.
i prefer to look at the horse as such and see if there is natural impulsion as that usually derives from a "good" hindleg plus a well working back and the entire package of natural given "carryage" a horse is given or not given at all.
if impulsion is there i don't really care about if the hindleg is flashy, fast or wide - it does seem to work in the sum of its parts and that is the most important part.
and here is where wheat is being seperated from the chuff.

rather than looking at flashy movers (no matter of in front or behind) the natural cadence (when given) can be judged best at full halts - how do they carry and balance themselves when coming back from trott to walk/canter to trott? immediate reaction and continuing self carriage through the entire body?
basically here we are at collection or the potential collection a horse could achive (whats given by nature/what needs to be trained in). a natural "carrier" saves you a lot of work.
reason why the longing has become an issue at the licensing topics.
put a side rein on them and have them switch gaites. full halts. natural carriage and swing.
are they "avoiding" to make use of their body and carry it all through or do they keep balance "catching" the half halt in their hindlegs?

i have never been eager about longing in the past but this winter i have learned to value it - as it doesn't really take much training or preparation of the young horse - basically all you want to see is how they naturally behave in this situation with their side reins on. as they do need a fair chance to establish a stable/smooth bid connection in order to bow up their back and make use of it when being asked these simple tasks. if they do make use of their back/body usually that counts for a good hindleg/good USE of hindleg, too.

this is where impressive movers (flashy) often start to loose while horses of average spectacularity often gain.

and this is taking me to #5 as high set hocks make up for nowadays desired longleggishness.
i would consider that the most fatal error in present dressage horse breeding of all.
if such horse does work in the sum of its parts that's fine and it does happen. take it as a plus. but personally i wouldn't make it a breeding goal. rather the contrary.
high hocks do provide for great "activity" visually simply for the higher angle they provide when in move.
but at the same time they establish high leverage.
the higher the leverage the harder to balance the entire engine/structure.
physical antagonism in itself.
a well balanced well swung through horse better be of lower leverage in the first place -
and the quality of half halts being carried through while setting themselves deeper in their hindlegs and at the same time maintaining the natural uphill tendency can demonstrate this better than anything else. the opposite is often the case: half halts are simply being stopped out/run out/avoided by stepping aside. as it is not the power of moving forward and how it does so that makes a good horse - it is rather the quality of moving back, collecting the entire forward impulsion backwards by using its entire body for this. and lower leverage does provide for big time advantages. and now we are talking collection.

and my very personal guess is that this is the reason why certain lines known for longleggishness and "strong character" often are being considered "not the easiest to ride when it comes to collected work". well, i can't blame them. as i try to avoid physical hard work if i can, too. very human, very natural.
of course this kind of work is so much harder for them then it is for others. for simple reasons of physics. it does take a strong rider to "convidce" them to do the hard work.

also, there is a reason why even elder traditional equestrian books who analyse jumpers and eventers call for "low set" horses - the reason is balance and stability. you barely find highselling longleggishness in highselling jumpers/eventers - as it doesn't matter to them for reasons of functioning in the first place.

watching the longing attentively at the verden licensing the other week (and i bring this up since it has been mentioned a couple of times on this board) really was a great opportunity to learn as you usually don't get to see and compare 100 horses in longe work at the same place&time. it really was the longing that in the end made me change my list of favourites thoughout the catalogue in a way i had never thought it could happen:
all of a sudden i had a few of those less spectacular "normal" horses scoring high through balanced work and at the same time i erased some of the others.
first impressions often need a second chance.

[back in the saddle]

Ok, can someone tell me which stallion from the latest Hanoverian stallino testing has the best hind leg in the video? And which one is not so great? And then explain to me what I'm looking at. ;)

[siegi b.]

Fannie Mae - you are absolutely the best when it comes to explaining equine form and function!

Liebe Gruesse!
Siegi

[Donella]

To me a good hind leg means one that will serve well in dressage. It means that the leg is quick to step up and under the horse but most importantly, that it steps well under and then CARRIES, even if just for a second. In a young horse, there is obviously not alot of carrying going on. Maybe it isnt even entirely the hind leg when I look at the SH stuff, but more that there is NO rotation of the pelvis and elevation of the front ends. In some of the other young colts..you can see this easily when the move out, the front comes up, the pelvis rotates and the hind legs carry more underneath.

Some of them really lack good articulation of the hind legs too..which is something different...

There is one Sandro Hit that I think has a fairly good hind leg, especially for a youngster..that is Swarovski. The unfortunate part is that it looks like he has a lateralish walk.

[lolita1]

grayarabpony ditto and I would be looking at his near side hind and off side fore. Sorry for the comments but I'm reading this as a really would love to bred to SH or a son but ... just ...