AWR versus RSPI, opinions welcomed!

[hunter-jumper-rider]

With all the threads floating about with the American registries......I just thought I would throw this out there.

In your OPINION, is AWR more "respected" as a registry or is RSPI?? Both seem fairly similar as far as their standards for registration so I wanted to obtain a group opinion from COTHers on which was "better" or more "respected."

Let's not make it into a bashing fest, but more based on personal experiences :yes:

Thanks!

[Sunny's Mom]

I think they both qualify for equal opportunity bashing for approving horses that are not perceived to be of high quality.

/shrug

I've never been on an RPSI inspection. I'm an AWR member myself.

[horsechica58]

Personally I'm not a huge fan of either, I'm more of a Hanoverian and Oldenburg fan myself. But if I had to choose I think I would go with RPSI over AWR.

I admit I don't have personal experience with either, but based on what I've heard and read from other people, out of the two I'd choose RPSI. :)

[ljshorses]

RPSI is a German Registry. Horses are inspected by judges flown here from Germany that do a tour of the US and Canada. We are one of the host sites in the U.S. They follow European guidelines for the approval process and have a lower Book II for horses that basicly are COP or have not met certain requirements to be as yet put in the higher Book I. The horses are issued a "passport" that comes from Germany (usually takes until the following spring of their inspection). I have had both types of horses here as well as AWS. I can only speak of my own experience, but the RPSI horses have been easier for me to sell. The inspection process is very fair and even though they will tell you in detail what they think of your horse, there is no public bashing as I have found in the other registry. Good and bad is relayed to presenter to help them determine how their breeding program is doing and or whether a particular animal is well suited for breeding etc... Also, stallion candidates are when approved for breeding, are given a set amount of time to either meet sport requirements through performance or complete a 30 Day Test. They are currently designating a seperate hunter/jumper bred group but as yet don't have a seperate book as do the KWPN and not sure if they will. But you can tell the inspectors your breed focus and what discipline your horse is best suited so as he or she can be evaluated accordingly. I have been a member of RPSI for many years and have been very happy with them. My only complaint has been in the slowness of passport issues. They now give at inspection, a temporary, if you will, registration paper to be used until full passport arrives. This temporary registration has their permanent number or "life number".

[MagicRoseFarm]

IMHO The RPSI seems to have a special place for EVERY horse presented, whether it is eligible for breeding or not, and whether it is suitable for upper level competition within its discipline or not, and say thank you for your monies, your horse is now registered.

The AWR is geared more toward the Breeding of Sporttypes for upper level competition and is not afraid to educate their members as to what characteristics should (or should not) be bred for future generations within those disciplines. While they issue registration papers to all eligible horses, they encourage their members to be aware and raise their breeding standards for their chosen disciplines with each generation. This encourages the best to be bred to the best, allowing the lesser quality animals to be lost to future generations.


They are two totally different kinds of registries, requiring different types of respect, depending on your own individual perspective.

[Signature]

We are members of several different registries since many of our mares have different approvals. What I didn't know about the RPSI when I previously had a uneducated opinion of them is that they have two books. The highest book is judged just the same way GOV or any other german registry does it with the same scoring system. As someone else said, it's a team from German doing the inspection. Book I requires verifiable approved pedigree, only approved german blood, TB, or Arab will qualify. They don't take anything like QH, Saddlebred, Morgan, Draft, etc. Babies get the same type passport that the GOV gives.

Book II does accept crosses outside of the specific German/TB/Arab guidelines, which I don't think is necessary and contributes to people's misunderstanding and thought of lack of quality. Plus, stallion owners sometimes say a stallion or mare is "approved" Book II, but really they are not. They are just recorded. They do not get full brand or full papers. This just adds to the confusion and is only being done to take advantage of people's ignorance and create a higher perceived value. So, you just have to learn a little about it to realize there is definitely quality control. It does make me a bit mad though to see a "Silver Premium" RPSI foal (they are scored the same regardless if they are full papered or not) with draft background being labeled the same as Silver Premium foal with all imported lineage and premium parents... it means you have to know a bit more when looking at RPSI foals to make an accurate assessment of the foal's quality - vs. GOV that just doesn't give out Premium to anything.

Their customer service though is the tops. GOV has never, ever, EVER responded to any phone message or email I've ever made over the past 3 years. The RPSI responds within hours. But, I do think with good customer service sometimes comes the inability to truly weed out the good from bad, for fear of driving away customers with the type of honesty that maintains quality.

After attending many inspections for many different breeds, it is quite apparently to me that the AHS (American Hanoverian Society) represents the highest overall quality of horses, hands down. But, they are QUITE strict, and very honest and true to their mission of improving quality of the horses and not stroking people's egos; barely letting even a TB in without an above average score. So, the attention to quality definitely shows.

I admittedly know nothing about AWR so I can't comment. I do know from talking to most of our foal buyers they don't know much if anything about the registries so it's easy for them to be confused or misinformed and end up not comparing apples to apples.

[camohn]

Having dealt with both:
The customer service at AWR used to be horrid. It has improved a lot in the last 2 years or so. RPSI has always been very pleasant/helpful/prompt in replies. RPSI used to be poor about differentiating between Book I and Book II but they have recently improved upon that a lot. Per the german rules RPSI actually MUST inspect all crossbreds anyone wants to present for recording purposes. It is not a choice. They just don't have to put them in Book I. Book II is like a COP. Yes, a horse will get a Silver Premium with RPSI if they score between a 7.0 and 7.9.....you do have to know to ask the seller if the foal is in Book I or Book II though if that info is not offered in an advertisement. I have seen a lovely Appendix QH mare get an 8.0/gold premium for scores (and I think was either champion or reserve at the inspection) and still be in Book II due to pedigree. Otto scores em like he sees em and the best horse will get the best score regardless of pedigree.....but at the end of the day which book they end up in still depends on if they meet the pedigree requirement.

[MagicRoseFarm]

Per the german rules RPSI actually MUST inspect all crossbreds anyone wants to present for recording purposes. It is not a choice.

This is true of all the German Associations, hence the development of the Reitpony Studbook( for crossbred ponies) and the Kleinpferde studbook ( small horses),, some just carry it further and do breeding approval within those crossbred books as well( ie Weser-Em).

It IS very confusing to those who are ignorant to all the in and outs ....

[Olympussporthorses]

I haven't dealt much with the AWR but I have been to an RPSI inspection and it was very well organized and they explained their scoring before the inspection started. I also applaud them for getting a 30 day test going here in the US to give stallion owners an option other than the controversial AHS/OLD testing. They are working on setting up a 70 day test. I think they are really headed in the right direction.

[tri]

I think that there is a certain public's perception that anything european is better - there are certainly quite a few who post on this forum that are very much into keeping that going.

With any registry, there needs to be a close look at exactly what the horse is and there many advertisements that claim a horse is a "whatever" when it isn't actually registered or approved anything including hanoverians, oldenburgs, AWR horses, and RPSI horses.

People who know enough to care what the registry is will also know enough to be able to see a draft cross in the RPSI and/or a full 100% top european bloodlined horse in the AWR or an AWR horse with QH blood (hunter bred) versus a full 100% top european blooded horse in the RPSI regsitry.

One of the problems for U.S. breeders is, however, the way an RPSI horse is tracked in the WBFSH versus how it would be tracked for the AWR. An American-bred RPSI horse who makes it to int'l level sport will be awarding points for the German regsitry, be known as a product of Germany and be considered German-bred. An AWR horse that gets to int'l level will earn points as an AMERICAN horse, be considered American-bred and will be considered a product of AMERICAN breeding.

Enough people want to go to europe to buy horses without U.S. breeders promoting their own products as european making people want to go even more.

[FuelsterFarm]

RPSI seems to offer greater marketability for sale horses than either AWS or AWR in my experience. While, as mentioned above, people to have a lack of understanding of the various books that RPSI offers.

At all but one RPSI inspections I have attended, the horses presented have all been of European breeding - with a few TB mares thrown in the mix for breeding approval. At only the last one I attended, was there an "oddball" horse, in this case a TB x Appaloosa mare that was entered into a lesser book and given a different brand.

At AWS inspections, I have seen almost everything... from Arabians to Percherons, Friesian x draft crosses, Morgan x QH crosses, European bred horses, the whole gamut. I think this is perhaps why buyers tend to be more wary of an AWS horse, there is just too much that can be and is classified as an "American" Warmblood right now.

[Signature]

Yeah, unfortunately I have seen the same with AWS. We have a co-worker who has a Paint/TB cross who proclaimed he was an American Warmblood since he was going to get AWS papers. To me that is just selling short the whole purpose and makes the other warmblood registries look bad. It seems like literally anything can get papers and be called a warmblood, and people just use this term "warmblood" to jack up prices on their stock to attract and dupe innocently ignorant buyers.

We have had this happen specifically - a woman looking at a Hanoverian filly of ours who was by Pablo out of a MSB mare and branded AHS, and was also looking at a "Hanoverian" filly from someone else. After the woman told us who the filly was by, we were confused because we knew he was not approved AHS. The bad thing was, the seller was telling the woman the filly was a branded "Hanoverian" (the sire was Han/TB by a Han stallion) and so when we're telling her our filly is branded "Hanoverian" how would she really know unless she knew, like we did, all the ins and outs of the registries and approvals and that this particular stallion is not approved Hanoverian and so there was no way the filly could be registered Hanoverian. When it came out that the filly was registered and branded AWS we attempted to explain to her the difference. It was an ok filly but was priced the exact same as ours for which bloodline-wise there was no comparison (never saw video of the other one). Our filly sold before she could purchase her but I hope it was a lesson to her for future endeavors in baby buying!

[ljshorses]

IMHO The RPSI seems to have a special place for EVERY horse presented, whether it is eligible for breeding or not, and whether it is suitable for upper level competition within its discipline or not, and say thank you for your monies, your horse is now registered.

The AWR is geared more toward the Breeding of Sporttypes for upper level competition and is not afraid to educate their members as to what characteristics should (or should not) be bred for future generations within those disciplines. While they issue registration papers to all eligible horses, they encourage their members to be aware and raise their breeding standards for their chosen disciplines with each generation. This encourages the best to be bred to the best, allowing the lesser quality animals to be lost to future generations.


They are two totally different kinds of registries, requiring different types of respect, depending on your own individual perspective.

Not sure I get where you are coming from. How many RPSI inspections have you attended? You are welcome to attend ours each year, maybe if you come you can educate yourself on how the books are done. Each and every inspection there is a talk beforehand open to questions and answers from all. I think your first sentence sounded, well lets just say not totally correct. AWR also has a book for all and more than happily takes your money...does any registry not? Oh and did I not mention, the inspectors at RPSI also tell you their opinion on what should be bred for future generations as you stated AWR does, they just do it a bit more PC than AWR. I believe your second paragraph pretty much sums up what RPSI does, but I guess they do it a little differently so as not to humiliate or belittle those attending. I would love to speak of my personal experience with AWR but will limit it to pms or emails so as to keep this thread on track. Both registries serve a purpose and it is a matter of choice. I personally find the RPSI stock an easier sell, but that is just my personal experience.

[MagicRoseFarm]

Yes LJS it IS a matter of choice. We are lucky because here in the US we are not restricted in our choices, unless we choose to be.

Since the early 1980's, I have attended MANY inspections, stallion licensings and 100/70 day Stallion tests, both here and in Europe and am well aware that each Association has different goals, and creates rules and "books" necessary for their membership to attain those goals. Understanding the goals of a particular association is paramount to "fitting in" with their program, which I believe is what the OP is seeking in information.

The RPSI is required by German law to issue a registration paper to EVERYTHING presented it, so it makes a special place for each.

The AWR is more focused on BREEDING, and expects to see these horses again in future generations, unless the horse exhibits undesirable characteristics for breeding according to the AWR's goals.

RPSI, besides being a breeding association, is also great for those who want "papers" and are willing to accept other books to get them. This stock is not accepted for breeding so, the RPSI gets its money and is done. The final quality of horses in these other books will also not reflect on the future of the RPSI , as they are NOT approved for breeding.

As I said before: They are two totally different kinds of registries, requiring different types of respect, depending on your own individual perspective.

[pintopiaffe]

... and is only being done to take advantage of people's ignorance and create a higher perceived value.

I sincerely hope that the ensuing responses about RPSI's LEGAL OBLIGATION to *register* any horse presented to them explains away this very untrue statement.

I cannot speak to AWR, but AW*S* is set up almost identically to RPSI and get's bashed (as above) for registernig "anything." Well, YES, that is the goal. To *register* any horse for tracking purposes. APPROVEAL for breeding for either of them is a whole 'nother bowl of wax.

There is still a certain mystique about the German registry vs. the US ones. So yes, some buyers will be swayed by the passport they can't read. My RPSI colt sold more quickly than a couple of my others, but not all. And it was probably more due to his bloodlines than registry. My stallion has gotten not one SINGLE breeding from his approval for breeding RPSI, so in that respect, it hasn't gained me a thing marketability wise.

RPSI staff are positively lovely. But so are AWS. AWR... my experiences were apparantly during a 'bad spell' :lol: so I won't comment there. ;)

[ljshorses]

I believe most will issue papers and take money to record the animals accordingly AND AWR is no exception. I witnessed this first hand and am not saying it is wrong (as another poster stated, this is for tracking purposes only not saying the animals are approved for breeding). AWR DID and DOES also issue papers to animals it deems unsuitable for breeding, that I can prove, so all I'm saying is this is a "normal" process by all registries to some extent. Some are more strict than others though. I know AWR approves animals that have "unknown" breeding in their pedigree and these animals, if they score well enough or liked by the "inspector" are then allowed to pass those "unknown" genes on. The way I look at it, the seperate Books the RPSI has, tells the owner that he or she should RECONSIDER before breeding. All is on a case by case basis and I have witnessed stunning Book II animals that are the exception but not necessarily the rule. AWR has breeding animals that have long respected lineage grouped with animals that do not, all in the same Book or Boat or whatever. That is why it has to be a personal choice.

I want certain regulation of stock but I also as a member, wish to be trreated with respect. I also want to be educated and helped in my decisions not necessarily TOLD what to do. But everyone is different and responds to things differently because of it. What works for one may not for another and that is fine. My original post did not bash anyone, it just pointed out how the RPSI is run being that I have a lot of experience with this organization and am a long time host site for them. I merely was answering the op's question regarding RPSI.

[Signature]

I sincerely hope that the ensuing responses about RPSI's LEGAL OBLIGATION to *register* any horse presented to them explains away this very untrue statement.

I cannot speak to AWR, but AW*S* is set up almost identically to RPSI and get's bashed (as above) for registernig "anything." Well, YES, that is the goal. To *register* any horse for tracking purposes. APPROVEAL for breeding for either of them is a whole 'nother bowl of wax.

There is still a certain mystique about the German registry vs. the US ones. So yes, some buyers will be swayed by the passport they can't read. My RPSI colt sold more quickly than a couple of my others, but not all. And it was probably more due to his bloodlines than registry. My stallion has gotten not one SINGLE breeding from his approval for breeding RPSI, so in that respect, it hasn't gained me a thing marketability wise.

RPSI staff are positively lovely. But so are AWS. AWR... my experiences were apparantly during a 'bad spell' :lol: so I won't comment there. ;)

I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying - I meant that some foal sellers seem take advantage of people's lack of knowledge about the different books and registries to try and command higher prices for stock which is ultimately not of the same quality. This is just what we've noticed through personal experience as I mentioned, so perhaps it's not the norm?

I love the RPSI staff too, they are just wonderful. We held our first inspection this year with them and they were great and we had the best time. We have been belittled and humiliated by other registries so I can relate on that note. I realize that the goal, of course, is to maintain a high standard of quality, but there is constructive criticism which we welcome (we're probably our own biggest critics really!) and then there is just plain being ugly.

If it were more easy to understand the registries I don't think there would be so much heated debate over the subject time and time again! :) Perhaps even I don't completely understand and I am enjoying the discussion here.

[FriesianX]

[QUOTE=pintopiaffe;3614988]
I cannot speak to AWR, but AW*S* is set up almost identically to RPSI and get's bashed (as above) for registernig "anything." Well, YES, that is the goal. To *register* any horse for tracking purposes. APPROVEAL for breeding for either of them is a whole 'nother bowl of wax.

QUOTE]

I was just going to say the same thing! Yes, AWS and RPSI are very similar in their books and rules.

As for the type of horses presented - we hosted our very first AWS inspection two weeks ago. We had a total of 18 horses signed up, and there was not a SINGLE draft cross in the bunch. There were six Friesian crosses (makes sense, since I presented four myself, and all had Warmblood lines as well - Art Deco, Galoubet, and Wolkenstein II). There were two outside Friesian crosses, one also included WB lines. The other horses included one very nice Welsh Cob (whose sire is showing FEI), a Hackney horse (with relatives showing very sucessfully in dressage and CDE), a purebred Friesian, and the rest were ALL Warmblood crosses! So, I don't know why people assume all horses in AWS are draft crosses, it was not my experience.

As for RPSI - I've been to several of their inspections, and I've seen plenty of Quarterhorse, Paint, and Appy crosses presented, branded, and registered. I don't understand WHY RPSI is considered so much different from AWS. Please note, I'm not bashing EITHER registry, I think they both serve a great service, and both run their inspections in a very educational and useful way.

It would be nice to see people gain a better understanding of the registries - maybe we'd see less bashing of the U.S. registries and more support for them.

[NoDQhere]

We have held an annual Keuring with the RPSI for many years and have found them to be very professional to do business with. We chose to go with RPSI for a variety of reasons. First being the fact that we could become a Host Site and not be trying to haul multiple mares and foals all over the country.

Secondly was that RPSI will grade mares of ANY "European Warmblood" registry as well as the right type TB, Arabian, Shagya and Anglo Arab. Since we have always selected mares on type over birth registry, that was a plus for us. Our Hanoverian, Oldenburg, Dutch, Arabian, Anglo Arab (you get the picture) mares could all produce Zweibrucken foals. It just seemed to make the most sense to have our stallions and mares all graded into ONE registry.

The bonus of course is that the registry is very "unpolitical" in their dealings so the playing field is "level" regardless of who you are :). And YOU feel like YOU do matter and are appreciated :yes:.

We have no experience with AWR or AWS so cannot comment on them. It isn't "right" but the term American Warmblood can mean many things and unfortunately too many people still think it is a Draft crossed with anything. We have to worry about marketability.

We also don't worry about Germany getting credit for our "American bred" horses. If and when an American bred RPSI horse "arrives", Otto and all the RPSI folks will be shouting it from the rooftops.

[NoDQhere]

As for RPSI - I've been to several of their inspections, and I've seen plenty of Quarterhorse, Paint, and Appy crosses presented, branded, and registered. I don't understand WHY RPSI is considered so much different from AWS. Please note, I'm not bashing EITHER registry, I think they both serve a great service, and both run their inspections in a very educational and useful way.

This is one of the biggest misunderstandings. All of the crosses you mentioned would be Book 2, a COP, because of EU Law. They are not approved for breeding. It takes 4 generations of Approved pedigree "behind" a horse before it can be approved into Book 1 with RPSI. If I understand correctly, this is not the way it is with AWS or AWR. A horse that is, in their opinion, the right "type" can be approved for breeding with no pedigree.

[pintopiaffe]

AW*S* does NOT *approve for breeding* any horse with less than 4 generations of Euro approved bloodlines.

They may make the highest SCORE designation of Blue Preferred, but only the Euro WB lines (with Arab and/or TB being the only exceptions) are in the *ELITE* book.

Which would be EXACTLY the same procedure as RPSI.

The same crosses would be in lower books for both registries, though I believe, only foals of a Book I stallion with a mare who scores well enough to make at least the Pre-book in RPSI gets into Book II. AWS you *may* submit the foal without having to put the mare through. Which to me, is the only significant difference, other than the $$ going to the US instead of Germany. The cost is a big deal too. I only pay for the foal I want inspected, not to have my triple-registered mare entered into yet *another* registry I may or may not use next year...

[Signature]

That is what I find difficult - to find a registry which is strong in all areas which we feel strongly about. Right now we belong to three different registries, which can get VERY pricey for mare dues, membership dues and so forth.

I wish we could have a registry with the tight quality control/limited books of the AHS with the customer service of the RPSI. Honestly I think the GOV would be really good if they could get the customer service together, and avoid some of the hateful comments during inspections which is has happened not only to us but others we know. Also I wish they had the consistency in inspection teams that RPSI has. In 2006, the team raved about a Paparazzo colt we brought, claiming he was a "top prospect for the hunters" and he was awarded Premium. In 2007, we brought a filly out of the same mare who was equally correct, moved even better but just a bit different in type, but the team was different; they did not like her at all and made some embarassing comments about her to the audience intentionally. It was just kind of bad!

[FriesianX]

This is one of the biggest misunderstandings. All of the crosses you mentioned would be Book 2, a COP, because of EU Law. They are not approved for breeding. It takes 4 generations of Approved pedigree "behind" a horse before it can be approved into Book 1 with RPSI. If I understand correctly, this is not the way it is with AWS or AWR. A horse that is, in their opinion, the right "type" can be approved for breeding with no pedigree.


I didn't say they were approved for breeding, I said they were branded and registered with RPSI.

AWS requires either a very high inspection score (as an adult), or true performance results to approve for breeding. When you look at their list of approved for breeding stallions, they are many of the same horses in the RPSI (and ISR) list of approved for breeding. There are only a FEW of us who have "non-traditional" bloodlines who made it in the approved books. In my case, my stallion is Friesian x Art Deco mare, and his Friesian lines are highly successful sport lines (same lines as a US CDE Team horse and as Onyx, who was USDF HOY through 4th level, beating out all other breeds). There just aren't many of those "non-traditional" bloodlines in the AWS Approved for Breeding ranks.

[hunter-jumper-rider]

Semi OT, but when I took my 2 year old to his AWR Inspection, both judges were Germans not Americans!! I thought that was ironic :winkgrin:

[not again]

AWR inspectors include experts of Dutch, German, American descent, and others. Their backgrounds include international judges, geneticists, professional horsemen and long time breeders. Speaking German may just mean someone was born there or is fluent, not necessarily that the individual is traveling on a German passport.

[expression]

I am buying a filly registered by RSPI. I was told that she was registered as a yearling, and not judged. Apparently, the judge commented that she was a nice mover and looked very rideable. What should I take from that? Should I take her back as a three year old to be inspected? She is out of a Hanoverian stallion by a Goer bred Appy mare.

[PineTreeFarm]

I didn't say they were approved for breeding, I said they were branded and registered with RPSI.

When you look at their list of approved for breeding stallions, they are many of the same horses in the RPSI (and ISR) list of approved for breeding.

You can't have it both ways (not you in particular)
Many complain that all horses should be registered for tracking purposes. And I think that's the way it happens in EU countries. So what's the problem with RPSI ( or any other registry) registering horses?. It doesn't mean they are approved for breeding.

Yes, there are around 23-24 stallions registered in both registries. But many of those horses are also registered elsewhere. It seems you find some negative significance in being approved with both??

Are you saying any of the horses that are in both registries shouldn't be approved for breeding?

Here's most of the horses in both registries. It's a nice group of stallions.

accord III
bergamon
casi
coconut grove
Contester
corcovado
donarweiss ggf
freestyle
gatsby
gerschwin
glorioso noir
ironman
just the best
leonberg
noblechampion
ragtime
redwine
routinier
saracen
schroeder
staccato
werbellin
windfall

[FriesianX]

OK, we are resurrecting a thread that is what, six months old? OK - I can't have it both ways? What exactly are you commenting on here? My POINT was that everyone bashes AWR and AWS for accepting anything and everything, and yet AWS (I can't speak for AWR, I'm not as familiar with their rules) and RPSI are almost identical. They both have multiple BOOKS or LEVELS of registration. They both differentiate between registered versus approved for breeding. RPSI accepts all different types of horses, as does AWS. Even AHA will issue a COP to something with non-warmblood lines as long as one parent is approved for breeding. With a COP, the horse qualifiies to be called a Hannoverian, qualifies for USDF awards, etc. It isn't much different that one of the lower books or levels in RPSI or AWS. I'm not saying these rules are BAD, I'm pointing out that AWS isn't really much different than some of the German registries.

My point here is that it is hard to put down AWS for doing things basically identical to RPSI.

The last RPSI inspection I went to (two years ago), about 60% of the horses were of Euro Warmblood and WB/Tbred breeding, and about 40% were half Paint or half Appaloosa. The last AWS Inspection I hosted, several of the horses were part Friesian (since five of them were mine), but about 80% of the horses presented were at least part Euro Warmblood too (and some of them were all Euro WB). And there were NO Draft crosses AT ALL. The only "stock horse" cross were a Paint/Tbred/Dutch WB cross and two Friesian/Warmblood/Paint crosses.

I'm not bashing RPSI or any of the other Euro registries, just pointing out there really isn't a lot of difference in how they operate versus how AWS operates, other than they fly judges in from Germany, and AWS uses U.S. judges.

I appreciate that RPSI registers various horses - I just don't understand why AWS gets put down for doing absolutely the same thing? I have NO problem with the stallions listed being approved by RPSI - my point here is that some of these SAME stallions are approved by AWS - again, pointing out the similarities in the registries - one is American, one is German, but they are quite similar. I'm not sure how you read my post and interpreted what you did?

You can't have it both ways (not you in particular)
Many complain that all horses should be registered for tracking purposes. And I think that's the way it happens in EU countries. So what's the problem with RPSI ( or any other registry) registering horses?. It doesn't mean they are approved for breeding.

Yes, there are around 23-24 stallions registered in both registries. But many of those horses are also registered elsewhere. It seems you find some negative significance in being approved with both??

Are you saying any of the horses that are in both registries shouldn't be approved for breeding?

Here's most of the horses in both registries. It's a nice group of stallions.

accord III
bergamon
casi
coconut grove
Contester
corcovado
donarweiss ggf
freestyle
gatsby
gerschwin
glorioso noir
ironman
just the best
leonberg
noblechampion
ragtime
redwine
routinier
saracen
schroeder
staccato
werbellin
windfall

[sniplover]

I am buying a filly registered by RSPI. I was told that she was registered as a yearling, and not judged. Apparently, the judge commented that she was a nice mover and looked very rideable. What should I take from that? Should I take her back as a three year old to be inspected? She is out of a Hanoverian stallion by a Goer bred Appy mare.

Take the comments for what they're worth - she moved nicely as a baby. That can change (either better or worse!) as they grow. :) Unless she's exceptionally nice and you must breed her, or you want an educated (and likely polite) third party critique of your riding prospect, there's really no point in taking her back and having her inspected. Of course, there is nothing wrong with getting her inspected just for the fun of it, but it sounds like she would not be eligible for the high book / breeding stock approval (please note that I am not super familiar with this registry, but I believe I have that correct)

[sid]

It is my understanding that the RPSI must "record" (i.e. "register") any horse brought to their registry. That is in their own bylaws. This is what they call "Book II". It's where they put horses that are presented to them that are not deemed "breedable" for that registry.

Nothing about horses recorded in Book II has anything to do with breeding within the RPSI registry for the production of competitive sporthorses - that is, those which have 5 generation verifiable pedigrees/ being of the acceptable "breeds" for breeding purposes.

Horses that qualify (EU controlled standards among the WB registries) through verified generational pedigree, bloodlines, breed -- and are inspected to meet those qualifications --go into Book I.

Even then, stallions which meet Book I criteria must still meet performance or 100DT standards, and fillies who were registered into Book I, must still return for inspection when they are mares to be judged if they are worthy of breeding and may be placed into the various marebooks within their Book I.

Basically, they have to put horses that are presented to them, regardless of pedigree or breed, somewhere...that is Book II. Nothing to do with breeding.

At least this is the way I understand it from Otto.

[dbay55@yahoo.com]

I cannot understand why anyone would gravitate to the RPSI for any reason other than to simply get papers. Of all the organizations in the US, this one makes the least sense to me of all. It isn't a US organization, there is no value in being associated with RPSI from a European standpoint, and why would anyone listen to judges from a foreign studbook that is very nearly a performance/production failure? No one in Europe seeks out Rheinland Pfalz-saar horses as far as I can tell. For 2008, it was the 19th ranked dressage studbook (1 horse!), the 18th ranked jumper studbook, and unranked in eventing. It is not even an also ran in Europe. It's a never was.

What gives here except to have someone treat you nice and make you feel good to take your money? No knowledgeable breeder buyer would put any value on this brand name. People buying foals because it is German passport are really getting taken for a ride here.

[sid]

For what you think is a "flunkie" EU registry, they've done a hell of a job trying to resolve the stallion testing debacle we've faced in our country for too many years, done so seriously ...and have actually made it happen, when no other EU registry would step up to the plate.

I happen to think this registry is a trendsetter for what we need in our country, and it seems that the other EU registries are jumping on board with what they are trying to do with servicing our breeders and our "testing" problems. If there are some people who want to pay for Book II, just for recording, when they know those horse never stand a hope in hell of being used for breeding or influencing the breed, fine. Glad they can make some money on it, so they can do what they need to do for us with Book I.

Think it out.

[dbay55@yahoo.com]

For what you think is a "flunkie" EU registry, they've done a hell of a job trying to resolve the stallion testing debacle we've faced in our country for too many years, done so seriously ...and have actually made it happen, when no other EU registry would step up to the plate.

I happen to think this registry is a trendsetter for what we need in our country, and it seems that the other EU registries are jumping on board with what they are trying to do with servicing our breeders and our "testing" problems. If there are some people who want to pay for Book II, just for recording, when they know those horse never stand a hope in hell of being used for breeding or influencing the breed, fine. Glad they can make some money on it, so they can do what they need to do for us with Book I.

Think it out.

The Americans in RPSI drove this test. Not the Europeans. Give credit where it is due, and that is not with RPSI in Europe.

I have no idea why AHS would agree to this testing if it is being judged by RPSI staff. Again, why would anyone put faith in judges whose efforts at home are not producing? It makes no sense, unless one wants to not think like a horse breeder. Yes, it is a flunky registry. Go ask some Germans with the Hannoverian, Oldenburg and Holsteiner groups. They will give you their opinion of it.

Don't get mad. It is what it is, but a lot of Americans just don't seem to understand its complete irrelevance in Europe. Why should it be relevant here?

[sid]

There is not an "American RPSI". It is only a German "RPSI". There is an "office" here to handle paperwork only, but it is not a subsidiary in any way.

I suggest you call Otto in Germany. He will explain it very succinctly. His english is quite good for a German (wink!).

[sid]

Afterthought. uropean breeders "cull" aggressively.. we don''t have the heart to becuase we are not objective. RPSI Book II horses are not breedable horses by their standards, or unless they have the pedigree and performace requirements that can eventually be proven...whether it is mares which wind up producing stellar offspring or stallions which meet performance and pedigree standards. This is no differenct than that lower marebooks for GOV and others where pedigree cannot be verified.

Difference is, GOV and others won't even look at horses out of WB breeding other the purebred Arabs and TBs,, sometime QH. That is clear in their bylaws.

Remember, WBs are not a breed. They are an amalgamation of breed/types to produce a certain type of horse that can be reproduced with little anamolies.

That's why some WB registeries do not close their doors shut. But they still must have a verifiable pedigree, as well as something superlative to offer to the breeding pool to be approved for breeding with the RPSI.

Book II is just where they put horses that have been presented but are not breeding worthy at the time they were presented. Other than babies who have the pedigree. Even then, they still must come back and meet all the requirement for any other EU registry.

[hunterjumper22]

Just a question. I own an Appendix QH mare who's sire is in AWR. My mare is being bred to a Hanoverian. What would my foal qualify for registry wise? What book would it possibly go in if the sire is Hanoverian! Thanks!! :) I am keeping the baby for myself not as a sale horse.

[SilverCreek]

This is where I should clarify something...as THE stallion testing center. First and foremost, it was Otto and the German RPSI office that required the testing of the NA stallions in order to continue being issued the German passport. The offices here were basically given the ultimatum that if the stallions could not be tested according to FN format that they would not be able to uphold their breeding licenses. Ernie and Joan Cohn (who run the NA RPSI offices) approached facilities to host the test. We ended up hosting the test for them.

However, the staff running, judging, and participating in the test were NEVER RPSI affiliated. Harald Hoffman, the training director, is from Westphalia. The riders were all selected by him. The judges did not come from RPSI either. Dr. Nebe works for the department of agriculture of the FN. RPSI initiated the availability of the test and provided funding for the test to get off the ground, but the staff was not RPSI staff. This is a German FN test. I cannot stress this enough. After two tests where RPSI graciously footed the bill, we explained to them the need here for a North American Stallion Test, where all of the registries, especially the ones that have to answer to a German Verband, could send their stallions to an FN sanctioned test. They whole-heartedly supported that concept and assisted us in presenting the idea to the other registries.

We have gone to great lengths to get this test approved by not just American branches, but it has been directly approved by both the German Hanoverian and Oldenburg Verbands. Harald, the training director, personally met with both Verbands on behalf of the test and was directly approved to be the training director of the test.

We, Silver Creek Farms, as an unbiased and neutral third party, manage the test. The test is entirely run according to FN standards and not at the request of any registry. Attending the test here will be reciprocal to attending a stallion test in Germany. That is why it was attractive for the AHS and GOV to sanction the test. Acceptance by any other registry, EU or American, will be their decision and no doubt made to make life less complicated for stallion owners that wish to present their stallion to multiple registries without having multiple licensing requirements. If they choose to accept the test is entirely up to them. We personally appreciate the different registries even considering it - because they don't have to. But many of them came to the last 30 day test to observe and learn about the testing process in the effort to assist the NA stallion owner. So they definitely deserve kudos...

[sid]

OMG - my typing is awful. I think faster than I can write.

I personally believe it was a monumental task that was DRIVEN by the RPSI that got the stallion testing that would suit our continent, in keeping with EU standards.

That means that they are not "chopped liver" when it comes to being bona fide and dedicated WB registry regardless of what is happening with them in Germany -- where the are a little fish in a big pond.

I'm thankful that they came our way, with the same breeding standards they have had in Germany, but with U.S. interests in mind. No others stepped up to the plate to make that happen despite years of complaints.

For that effort to fill a void that other EU registries would not bother with, I am grateful to the RPSI for being the catalyst.

[SilverCreek]

Sid, I completely agree. Kudos to RPSI...they really are trying.

[NoDQhere]

I cannot understand why anyone would gravitate to the RPSI for any reason other than to simply get papers. Of all the organizations in the US, this one makes the least sense to me of all. It isn't a US organization, there is no value in being associated with RPSI from a European standpoint, and why would anyone listen to judges from a foreign studbook that is very nearly a performance/production failure? No one in Europe seeks out Rheinland Pfalz-saar horses as far as I can tell. For 2008, it was the 19th ranked dressage studbook (1 horse!), the 18th ranked jumper studbook, and unranked in eventing. It is not even an also ran in Europe. It's a never was.

What gives here except to have someone treat you nice and make you feel good to take your money? No knowledgeable breeder buyer would put any value on this brand name. People buying foals because it is German passport are really getting taken for a ride here.

WOW! I think this is the biggest case of SOUR GRAPES I've seen in a long time:uhoh:

[RheinlandPfalzSaar]

WOW! I think this is the biggest case of SOUR GRAPES I've seen in a long time:uhoh:

Lol! Seriously! :lol:

[camohn]

IMHO The RPSI seems to have a special place for EVERY horse presented, whether it is eligible for breeding or not, and whether it is suitable for upper level competition within its discipline or not, and say thank you for your monies, your horse is now registered.

The AWR is geared more toward the Breeding of Sporttypes for upper level competition and is not afraid to educate their members as to what characteristics should (or should not) be bred for future generations within those disciplines. While they issue registration papers to all eligible horses, they encourage their members to be aware and raise their breeding standards for their chosen disciplines with each generation. This encourages the best to be bred to the best, allowing the lesser quality animals to be lost to future generations.


They are two totally different kinds of registries, requiring different types of respect, depending on your own individual perspective.

From someone who has been involved with both:
RPSI does NOT register every animal. Not in the main book. Just like the AWR has first/second premium levels, RPSI has book I and Book II. Book I is "fully registered" and Book II is basically a COP. I have found the inspectors for both to be knowlegeable but have found RPSI to generally be more customer service oriented.(Putting it bluntly, more polite). AWR is American based and RPSI is German based if you care where your money goes. Which registry I have used basically depends on where my stallion of choice is approved with.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoDQhere
This is one of the biggest misunderstandings. All of the crosses you mentioned would be Book 2, a COP, because of EU Law. They are not approved for breeding. It takes 4 generations of Approved pedigree "behind" a horse before it can be approved into Book 1 with RPSI. If I understand correctly, this is not the way it is with AWS or AWR. A horse that is, in their opinion, the right "type" can be approved for breeding with no pedigree.


FresianX replied: I didn't say they were approved for breeding, I said they were branded and registered with RPSI.


**The brands are different for Book I and Book II....so it can be seen "at a glance" on the old butt. As to the registered part....that is covered above in the Book I versus Book II thing.

[camohn]

There is not an "American RPSI". It is only a German "RPSI". There is an "office" here to handle paperwork only, but it is not a subsidiary in any way.

I suggest you call Otto in Germany. He will explain it very succinctly. His english is quite good for a German (wink!).

That is true...though as I undestand it the RPSI is a small registry in EU and at this point it very well may have more American born horses than German ones.
I have nothing against that...I use them and I like Otto.

For some folks ease of getting to an inspection may also be a deciding factor. Luckily for me I live where there is an inspection for about every registry within an hours drive. Many folks are not so lucky....and hauling a baby long distances IS a consideration for folks in some areas.

[florida foxhunter]

I feel like some of the above posters are a bit confusing........they seem to indicate AWR and AWS are the same........that is not my understanding!! AWR and RPSI have more in common (aren't both members of the World Breeding Federation?)

For the record of posted stallions above, Claim to Fame is approved in Book I of both RPSI and AWR. For the record, I have received more breeding inquiries of RPSI, but I like the Organizers of both very much!!

[dbay55@yahoo.com]

WOW! I think this is the biggest case of SOUR GRAPES I've seen in a long time:uhoh:

No sour grapes. As I say originally, there are multiple better options for Euro affiliation with 1) better brand name, 2) better breeding record, 3) better performance record, 4) better relevance in Europe. That is just simple fact so I did not understand the success, but now it is a little more clear to me as a void being filled. I am not going to argue it anymore because this is obviously an issue of apples-to-oranges perspective on horse breeding and what is desired from a registry. I have an apple view and others have an orange view. It is just difference of perceived value. Good luck regardless.

[NoDQhere]

No sour grapes. As I say originally, there are multiple better options for Euro affiliation with 1) better brand name, 2) better breeding record, 3) better performance record, 4) better relevance in Europe. That is just simple fact so I did not understand the success, but now it is a little more clear to me as a void being filled. I am not going to argue it anymore because this is obviously an issue of apples-to-oranges perspective on horse breeding and what is desired from a registry. I have an apple view and others have an orange view. It is just difference of perceived value. Good luck regardless.

OK, for the sake of argument, lets say AHS, KWPN, AHHA, and the ATA are "better" than RPSI. For AHS, you breed Hanoverian to Hanoverian, (or the very few Hann approved Trak or TB). Same for KWPN, Dutch to Dutch. AHHA, Holst. to Holst. ATA, Trak to Trak.

Fine and dandy if you are breeding within a "breed". Not so great for those of us who have mares of several "registries". To the best of my knowledge only RPSI, the two Oldenburg and the BWP Registries "use" horses from all the Verbands. The "big fight" amongst the two Oldenburgs turned us off from them and we weren't familiar with the BWP, so RPSI was a very good "fit" for us.

If "size" alone were all that determined the credibility of a Registry then nothing in the USA would have a chance against the AQHA, would it? And as we all know there are many horses in the USA that aren't AQHA, but are still very good horses.

[Edgar]

To the best of my knowledge only RPSI, the two Oldenburg and the BWP Registries "use" horses from all the Verbands.

The AHS takes them also , they just have a higher criteria for selecting mares from outside breed populations; they have to score a 7 or higher overall.This goes for German but also Swedish, Dutch, French and possibly others with an acceptable warmblood pedigree. 76 such mares were inspected last year, 57 made the grade.

[WWEB]

Both Coronado WW and Noble Houston are in the AWR and RPSI

We presented them and some foals to AWR 4 years ago. At that time the inspection was very unorganized, there were fees after fees then we got billed for fees we already paid. There was never any answer at the office, we did get frustrated. Both stallions are approved but we have not paid their dues over the last few years - it sounds like they may have improved some now?

Both stallions are also in the RPSI, Coronado WW was sent to and won the 30 day test (highest score) we opted not to send Noble Houston as he has been retired for a few years.

Noble Houston breeds quite a few AQHA and APHA mares for hunters - we do evaluate each mare that inquires for breeding to make sure we think it is a good cross and will produce a quality foal as these registries don't inspect or score the offspring.
The RPSI allows these mares in their books - our APHA mare even scored premium but is recorded in a lower book due to her Breed.
I know a lot of people think it's "wrong" to register these foals in a "warmblood" registry but by having the availability to inspect these foals we get an independant evaluation of the foals. YES, I would agree if someone is consistantly producing low Silver and Bronze offspring the breeding program must be evaluated regardless of the breed the foals are.

I like that regardless if it's a foal from Imported lines on both sides or a TB/ QH cross the foals are all judged on the same standards, it is a good guage for us to know that we are still producing Gold Premium foals from not only our full Warmblooda but the AQHA and APHA's as well. Quality offspring is what we strive for so knowing that some of our "Book II" foals can score equal to and sometimes better than other warmblood foals at the inspections keeps our quality standards up.

On another note: Our mares are approved ISR/OLD also and I believe they will give the AQHA/ APHA foals ISR papers?

[hluing]

This is true of all the German Associations, hence the development of the Reitpony Studbook( for crossbred ponies) and the Kleinpferde studbook ( small horses),, some just carry it further and do breeding approval within those crossbred books as well( ie Weser-Em).

It IS very confusing to those who are ignorant to all the in and outs ....

In my opinion, this is just another of the misleading statements that you make on these boards that add to people's confusion. The Reitpony studbook is a very big deal in Germany, not some add on cross-bred book. To say that, you would also say warmbloods in general are a "crossbred book". There is a distinct breeding goal and breeding rules to being accepted fully in a reitpony registry...you just can't cross any mare with a reitpony stallion and have a full papered offfspring (much the same as warmbloods).

[NoDQhere]

The AHS takes them also , they just have a higher criteria for selecting mares from outside breed populations; they have to score a 7 or higher overall.This goes for German but also Swedish, Dutch, French and possibly others with an acceptable warmblood pedigree. 76 such mares were inspected last year, 57 made the grade.

That is good to know. Although for us folks in the hinterlands, hauling mares to the closest Hanoverian site would be a nightmare, both financially and logistically. But who knows? We do have a very well bred Hanoverian stallion who is doing well in the show ring ;).

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

The AHS takes them also , they just have a higher criteria for selecting mares from outside breed populations; they have to score a 7 or higher overall.This goes for German but also Swedish, Dutch, French and possibly others with an acceptable warmblood pedigree. 76 such mares were inspected last year, 57 made the grade.

???

Ok, but to clarify (I hope), when I spoke to the AHS on this issue a non-AHS warmblood mare (lets use a SF for the sake of this example :-) she could be inspected and approved AHS, and the same for a stallion (in this case an Old/Gov stallion that is approved AHS stallion), but ONE of the parents had to have the requisite hano blood or the resulting FOAL would not be eligible for AHS.

Am I misinformed/not understanding?

Because then I spoke to RPSI and they would accept a foal from the above mentioned parents (assuming inspection is successful), even though neither was RPSI.

So--I "think" I understand that yes, AHS will take them, but not take the foals to the extent RPSI will (meaning some parent needs the blood component too).

My biggest issue is the distance of travel...

Oh and to keep on thread, before I started actually researching any of this in the past six months, at least among the crowd I show with, there was a bias against the American warmbloods and it was because so many people online are selling draft crosses as "American warmbloods." Some of it has nothing to do with the registry's standards, but everything to do with sellers calling a horse whatever will get people to look at it. And the ingrained idea that anything European is better. Riding thoroughbreds and having friends showing thoroughbreds we've all delt with the "my import is better" attitude (especially from the kiddies)...you just shrug it off and do your best to beat them ;-)

[RheinlandPfalzSaar]

[/QUOTE]was a bias against the American warmbloods and it was because so many people online are selling draft crosses as "American warmbloods." Some of it has nothing to do with the registry's standards, but everything to do with sellers calling a horse whatever will get people to look at it. [/QUOTE]

I think this is so true. I see it all the time on a local website. It seems anything that is a something crossed with a something is a lot of the times advertised as an American WB.

[Edgar]

You are correct in that to produce a Hanoverian foal from a non-Hanoverian mare the foal's sire needs to have a Hanoverian brand or at least 50% hano blood(not both) so that leaves out a few Hanoverian approved stallions that do not meet that requirement.

[Edgar]

Also if hauling is a problem; once your mare is Hanoverian approved you do not need to take a foal to inspection, you can register by mail, many do

[FriesianX]

was a bias against the American warmbloods and it was because so many people online are selling draft crosses as "American warmbloods." Some of it has nothing to do with the registry's standards, but everything to do with sellers calling a horse whatever will get people to look at it. [/QUOTE]

I think this is so true. I see it all the time on a local website. It seems anything that is a something crossed with a something is a lot of the times advertised as an American WB.[/QUOTE]

But this is an example of blaming a registry quality when people mis-represent their horses! I see it too, in fact, I've called on a few of these ads to ask what the inspection score was on the horse. Inspection? Huh? We don't do no inspections. OK, then the horse has been shown? Naaaah, we leave that to the new owner. OK, then is the horse actually registered American Warmblood? Well, it is a warmblood, and bred in America, so of course it is American Warmblood.

So the registry gets "blamed" because people latch on to the name. However, I have NEVER run into any bias at a dressage show - the judges don't hesitate to place my AWS horses above the Hannoverian, Oldenburg, Dutch, and RPSI. They often ask afterwards what he is - and none have ever turned up their nose at the term AWS. So if the show world isn't discriminating, eventually the buyers will understand that! In the Hunter world, the registry seems even less relevant.

[Kyzteke]

AW*S* does NOT *approve for breeding* any horse with less than 4 generations of Euro approved bloodlines.

They may make the highest SCORE designation of Blue Preferred, but only the Euro WB lines (with Arab and/or TB being the only exceptions) are in the *ELITE* book.

Which would be EXACTLY the same procedure as RPSI.

The same crosses would be in lower books for both registries, though I believe, only foals of a Book I stallion with a mare who scores well enough to make at least the Pre-book in RPSI gets into Book II. AWS you *may* submit the foal without having to put the mare through. Which to me, is the only significant difference, other than the $$ going to the US instead of Germany. The cost is a big deal too. I only pay for the foal I want inspected, not to have my triple-registered mare entered into yet *another* registry I may or may not use next year...

PP -- has this changed recently? I've never been a member of AWS, but a local breeder used to host their inspection for a number of years till she switched to RPSI. I attended and was a scribe at many of the AWS inspections.

Honestly, if it was equine and the check would clear, they took the horse. Morgans, drafts, QH, Paints, etc. I remember one especially interesting mare who was QH/Belgian/Paint cross. WOW!! Let's just leave it at that.

Are you saying they were just giving these mares COPs? 'Cause it sure seemed like they were approving them for breeding.

Again, I never read their rulebook, but I have to say I wasn't real impressed by their standards.

BTW, your little golden "surprise" (the one conceived during the snowstorm) is doing great -- she is a total chunk. Still no name....

[Kyzteke]

was a bias against the American warmbloods and it was because so many people online are selling draft crosses as "American warmbloods." Some of it has nothing to do with the registry's standards, but everything to do with sellers calling a horse whatever will get people to look at it.

I think this is so true. I see it all the time on a local website. It seems anything that is a something crossed with a something is a lot of the times advertised as an American WB.[/QUOTE]

But this is an example of blaming a registry quality when people mis-represent their horses! [/QUOTE]

But see, therein lies the rub. The REGISTRY presents themselves as a WARMBLOOD registry. It's American WB Registry or American WB Society. Then they proceed to take all these non-WB breeds.

I will be the first to admit that many of these registries popping up in America are mainly to line someone's pockets. I always said if I wanted to get rich I'd start a registry or a religion. For instance, RPSI was about to fold in over in Germany and now it registers more foals than any other WB/sporthorse registry in the USA.

The consumer has become so crazed at having "papers" on a horse (as if that somehow confirms quality), that the registries oblige.

And for so many years, if you tacked the title "warmblood" on a horse, you could just about double the price, even if it was a draft/paint cross.

I HOPE that the horse-buying public has become more educated about the approval vs registration process, and personally I'd like to keep my $$$ in America. But so far the American registries have shot themselves in the foot (IMHO) by being so lax in their standards.

I used RPSI for the most part, simply because they are right down the road, their inspection is in the fall (unlike most of the other registries, who INSIST on having their inspections during mid-summer when it's hotter than blazes here and some of my foals aren't even born yet...), they score their foals (which may help in marketing) and they seem to have a better "brand-name" than AWS. Yes, I'm sure it's because they are German, and yes, that's silly. But I've learned not to laugh at the market.

I thought breeding for color was silly too, but damn, those palies sell.

I used to use Old NA for the same reason, but they no longer have a close inspection.

I'd like to use AHS more, since I have 2 Hanoverian mares, but they only come every other year and always in mid-July. As I said, I often have foals not even born then, or at best just afew weeks old. And often the stallions I choose aren't AHS approved.

Here's an example: I have a registered, AHS approved mare currently in foal to Rosenthal, who is NOT approved AHS. But if I have a filly (cross fingers and pray), when she is 3 years old I can present her for AHS approval and (based on her scores) she can go into their MMB. In fact, a Rosenthal mare was highest scoring non-Hann in the COUNTRY for AHS last year.

So we take the long way around.

As for standards -- I DO think AHS has the highest standards of the registries I've worked with, but I still see cases (especially in stallion approvals) where who owns the stallion probably had a great deal to do with it's approval.

But don't you think that's just human nature?

Anyway, I keep plunking along breeding according to my goal/standards and use the registries as I need to...mainly for marketing or to confirm what I already knew about a horse's quality (or lack thereof).