Vaccinating the older broodmare...

[CrossWinds81]

I have heard a lot of mixed opinions as of late regarding vaccinations and the older broodmare...this being my first year with this older mare (22yrs old...though very healthy) I want to do what is best for her. Some say follow the 3,5,7,9 protocol with flu/rhino, others tell me that the older mare can be more compromised by the actual vaccine and lowers her immune response. I have heard a few say they worry about risking a loss of pregnancy. So, I'm not sure exactly what to do. We got a late start to breeding this year, and she is only 67 days at the moment, but that 3 month mark is fast approaching and I want to weigh my options before it gets here! ;) I, just like everyone else, am really excited about my future foal (Quidam Junior/Galoubet/out of full sister to Chase the Clouds) What is the best protocol for vaccinating an older mare?

[kmp2707]

I skipped the 3 month vacc's as my 22 year old had just been done a month or so before breeding, but followed protocol with 5, 7 and 9 month vacc's. Also did the 30 days prior to "due" date vacc's. Healthy colt was born when the mare was 23 this year.

[Hillside H Ranch]

I vaccinate my older mares the same as any other broodie. However, it isn't standard here to do the rhino at 3 months, so I do the 5, 7,9 and then the pre-foaling vaccines. I've never had a problem doing that and we reccomend it to our clients, as well.

[siegi b.]

Hillside - not only does my vet want me to do the Pneumabort on months 3, 5, 7, and 9, he also wants me to give Rotavirus vacc months 8 and 9. Then pre-foaling vaccs split up starting with 6 weeks prior - rabies, EWT, West Nile, 5 weeks prior - R/F, PHF, Rotavirus, and finally 4 weeks prior - botulism, Strep IM, and Pneumabort.

I look at all those things and just shudder! It's way too much stuff as far as I'm concerned. What do you think? I don't mean to put you in a bad position but would appreciate your frankness.....

P. S.: My vet doesn't want me to administer these vaccs but I end up doing it anyway because I would go bankrupt with 5 mares and 5 foals in one year! :-)

[Hillside H Ranch]

Siegi,
I will preface this by saying that I'm not a vet; just married to one and co-own the clinic. I will also say that every vet has a different opinion on vaccines. And of course you know that risk varies depending upon geographical region, type of farm (horses coming and going, or closed herd) and maybe even upon the individual horse.
For instance, I have a mare that has a huge vaccine reaction any time she is given ANY vaccine. We've switched brands, split them up, divided a single injection into two areas, etc. and the only thing that helps is pre-medicating her with banamine. It doesn't prevent the reaction, but it lessen the severeness. I still giver her rhinos and pre-foaling vaccines b/c I think the risk is greater to NOT vaccinate.

All that being said, it sounds like your vet is a very cautious vet and he/she probably can give you good reasons to vaccinate. I will say that is seems like a lot of vaccines, but I don't know the particulars of your situation.

For example, we don't vaccinate for botulism here; it isn't generally a problem. However, I know that Kentucky and the eastern seaboard have a big problem with botulism. The same for rotavirus. We don't generally reccomend that vaccine, unless you are talking about a farm with a high concentration of mares/foals that has had problems with diarrhea in the past. So you see, it is too hard to say whether your vet is overly aggressive or not.

Something that I find helpful and very interesting is looking at the AAEP vaccine guidelines: http://www.aaep.org/vaccination_guidelines.htm

You will see that they are divided into core and non-core vaccines. You can read more than you ever wanted to know about when/why/how to vaccinate your horse for anything and this can help you decide what you want to vaccinate against.

Here in Missouri, we do rhino at 5, 7, 9 and pre-foaling vaccines are EE/WE/Tet/Flu, West Nile and Rabies. For mares coming in to our farm to be bred or foal out we do require a strangles vaccine, but it isn't something that we generally reccomend to all of our clients who have just one mare at home that never travels, etc.

[Amoroso]

Here in Missouri, we do rhino at 5, 7, 9 and pre-foaling vaccines are EE/WE/Tet/Flu, West Nile and Rabies. For mares coming in to our farm to be bred or foal out we do require a strangles vaccine, but it isn't something that we generally reccomend to all of our clients who have just one mare at home that never travels, etc.

That is exactly what we do for our mares, as per our vet's advice (keep in mind this is for Alberta, Canada). I have a mare who reacts to the Pneumabort shot so I'm not sure if we will do that for her again this year, I'm debating. If we do, the vet will administer at the clinic...otherwise I do them myself.

[Equine Reproduction]

Hillside pretty much covered everything. We recommend rhino at 5, 7 & 9 months UNLESS you are in a "hot" zone where there have been recent outbreaks. But otherwise, 5, 7 & 9 months are adequate. ANY time you give a vaccination, de-worm a horse, etc., there is a risk that the mare will abort. However, the risk of the mare contracting a disease is probably significantly higher and not worth the risk in our opinion.

Vaccinate according to your risk factors. As Hillside noted, she doesn't vaccinate for botulism because it isn't a risk in her area. So, check out what diseases your mare is at risk for. By splitting up the vaccines, you minimize the reaction your mare may have. It's inconvenient, but if you have a highly reactive mare, it can make a huge difference. And, there are some mares that nothing you do will mitigate those reactions.

Good luck!

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

[goodmorning]

So I've heard from a few very reputable, been-breeding-forever types, that the original reason for the Rhino vaccs to be given at 5,7 and 9 months correlates back to race-horse breeding farms 'seasons' and shipping/racing schedules....I doubt that this is a totally false story, as one person who told me is a now-retired vet ;), but I'm just wondering if anyone else can verify this? At the time I didn't think to ask more about this, and I doubt it will have any impact on my mare's vaccination protocol, but just wondering....and what goes on in those months?

[Equine Reproduction]

So I've heard from a few very reputable, been-breeding-forever types, that the original reason for the Rhino vaccs to be given at 5,7 and 9 months correlates back to race-horse breeding farms 'seasons' and shipping/racing schedules....I doubt that this is a totally false story, as one person who told me is a now-retired vet ;), but I'm just wondering if anyone else can verify this? At the time I didn't think to ask more about this, and I doubt it will have any impact on my mare's vaccination protocol, but just wondering....and what goes on in those months?

<smile>...Hate to break it to you, but it "is" a false story. The reason behind the vaccination at 5, 7 and 9 months is that the rhino vaccine response is very short lived. We also recommend that if the mare goes beyond 11 months to go ahead and vaccinate at 11 months, as well.

Hope that helps !

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

[goodmorning]

But did the original effectiveness of the 5,7, 9 month protocol have anything to do with racehorse breeding? Were they the forerunners in this protocol?

Thanks for the response, I'll have to wait until an e-mail response from the vet or my other sources to see exactly what they meant -- :)

[Equine Reproduction]

But did the original effectiveness of the 5,7, 9 month protocol have anything to do with racehorse breeding? Were they the forerunners in this protocol?

Thanks for the response, I'll have to wait until an e-mail response from the vet or my other sources to see exactly what they meant -- :)

Not that I'm aware of. Many vaccines are "tested" on specific populations (thoroughbreds, for example) because they are followed closely, are fed and cared for closely, etc. So, often they become the original test base when a vaccine is being checked for efficacy. The protocol may have been tested and found to be effective from using it on TB broodmares because they do tend to breed for earlier foals, there are large numbers of foals produced every year and consequently or serendipitously became the forerunners to the protocol. Make sense? They like doing tests on large populations of animals that are being fed similarly, cared for similarly, vaccinated similarly, etc., in order to get consistent results and less variability.

Hope that helps!

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

[Fairview Horse Center]

I personally am more afraid of the long term effects of all of these vaccines and abortion than I am of the extremely low risk of the actual disease. I do vaccinate Pnumabort at 5,7,9 months, and then do Rabies, EWT, Flu, and West Nile at 10 months. If I was closer to the river, I may think about Potomac Horse Fever. If I fed round bales, I would think about botulism. It I ever have an issue with Rotavirus, I may think about that one too, but definitely not until. Definitely not giving Strep/Strangles, period.

I always give vaccines myself.

I do prefer to use a vet that encourages, rather than discourages owner participation though. I also prefer to take a conservative approach to all veterinary medicine as I do not believe it is benign.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Another thing to think about - West Nile was a bit push a few years ago, and many, myself included, jumped on the bandwagon. It seems like the local populations (mosquitoes, birds, horses, & people) have now been exposed, and have developed or are developing natural immunity. People are not vaccinated at all. Many people do not vaccinate their horses still for West Nile, but cases are very few. In Virginia, not a single case this year. Vets are not going to be telling people to not vaccinate, as there is a lot of pressure from the research sector to keep the income to pay for that vaccine development. It is one I will keep watching, and consider removing from my list in the future.

[Equine Reproduction]

Another thing to think about - West Nile was a bit push a few years ago, and many, myself included, jumped on the bandwagon. It seems like the local populations (mosquitoes, birds, horses, & people) have now been exposed, and have developed or are developing natural immunity. People are not vaccinated at all. Many people do not vaccinate their horses still for West Nile, but cases are very few. In Virginia, not a single case this year. Vets are not going to be telling people to not vaccinate, as there is a lot of pressure from the research sector to keep the income to pay for that vaccine development. It is one I will keep watching, and consider removing from my list in the future.

Gotta watch where the disease goes. It seemed to have made a westward "sweep". Last year, where we live had the highest number of humans that contracted the disease. It's as I said, if your area is a hot spot for a particular disease, definitely vaccinate. It's nasty, nasty, nasty if a horse (or a human) contracts it, so one has to weigh the pros and cons. We vaccinate. Just not worth the risk or expense of a horse contracting the disease. Thankfully, the price of the vaccine has come down considerably.

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

[clint]

We have had several equine fatalities in my area this year from WNV. It seems rather short sighted to drop that one from my protocol. However, I totally agree with you about the strangles vaccine. A few years ago I vaccinated my broodmare for strangles because of an outbreak in the area. She was miserable from the shots, and still got strangles right after she foaled, as did her newborn.

I am under the impression that it isn't necessary to vaccinate at month 3 for pneumabort because abortion isn't likely then from rhino. I start at month 5. Is that true?

[siegi b.]

I look at what has happened in the small animal arena where there has now been enough research that says re-vaccinations are really not necessary since the first ones protect the animal for life (7 to 10 years is the number they throw around). Not only that, they found that yearly vaccinations of small animals caused all kinds of severe auto-immune diseases as well as malignant tumors at the injection sites in cats.

Then I look at the stuff we vaccinate horses with and the fact that we always seem to add more but never drop anything off the list. Potomac Horse Fever is a perfect example... First of all your vet will tell you that the vaccine does not prevent PHF but may lessen the symptoms, and I'd also like to know when you've last heard of a horse that had the disease. It takes so long to get a positive read on PHF that treatment is started without knowing what it is you're treating and by the time the results from the test are back the horse is usually better anyway. But I don't really think that my vet will ever recommend not using it.

West Nile - I had a long discussion with one of the docs at our equine teaching hospital about this disease and his take was that it was a cyclical thing... We started out with a few cases, then more the following year, and then a bunch the third. At that point we got the vaccine and immunized all of our horses, sometimes two or three times a year! The next year there were few cases, and now you don't hear about them anymore. (I'm speaking for my area - VA/MD/PA). Is it because every horse is vaccinated now? I don't think so and neither did the doc. He thought the disease had run its course in this area, just like Potomac has, but it will take an act of congress to get it taken off the list of recommended vaccines.

In summary, I do think we over-vaccinate our horses but it will take a lot longer to get the necessary research done since most of that is taken care of by the pharmaceutical companies, and what would their incentive be to do that?

Just my opinion....

[Hillside H Ranch]

Well, I can tell you that in small animal medicine the vaccine protocols have changed, but there is no clear concensus on that, either. The newest protocols take into account the animals lifestyle (indoor cate, outdoor cat, hunting dogs, "apartment dogs", etc). Vaccines should be based upon risk-benefit analysis based upon the animal's (cat, dog, horse, whatever) "lifestyle". In cats and dogs, just like horses, we now have core vaccines, that all animals should receive. Then there are the non-core vaccines that some animals should receive based upon risk (these would include feline leukemia, leptosporosis in dogs, etc). Some adult animals, if they have been properly immunized in the past, should be given vaccines with 3 year duration of immunity. We don't know how long immunity lasts past that. Could it be 7-10 years? Maybe. Could it be much less? Probably. The simple fact is that unless you are doing challenge studies (actually exposing the animals to the particular disease it has been vaccinated for) for all these vaccines for all these animals, you just don't know what the duration of immunity is. It even varies animal to animal. The newest studies, in companion animals, show that titer levels don't always correspond to the animals acutal immunity level. Some dogs can have a high titer to a disease, but when they are experimentally exposed to it they still catch it. Some dogs can have a low titer (one we would not consider to be protective) and when exposed they stay disease free. No one knows yet why that is. I would guess that the same is true for horses. That is why all the buzz a few years ago was about testing titers to avoid over-vaccinating and now it isn't nearly as popular in veterinary medicine.

As far as immune diseases and tumors, that is extremely rare. I haven't seen any research linking immune related diseases to vaccines, but again I'm sure that in individual animals that can happen. The vaccine-related sarcomas in cats are actually quite rare as well. I just read a brand new paper on that and now they are finding that those cats that develop vaccine related sarcomas have a genetic predisposition for tumor formation. They have found that it often runs in families or certain lines in certain breeds. So although the vaccine could trigger that predisposition it isn't 100% vaccine related. They have taken some of these cats known to be gentically prone to developing tumors and injected them with saline and cause the same type of sarcoma. Preliminary research is now leaning towards the fact that these tumors are in part caused by inflammation, which could come from any sort of injection, not just a vaccine.

As far as West Nile, I would keep vaccinating for now. You have to remember that West Nile was a new disease introduced to this country, which was essentially a naive population, meaning it had no natural immunity. Of course we saw super high rates of infection because of that. Now we have a population that is largely vaccinated, plus a lot of natural immunity has developed, either through horses being infected and recovering, or being subclinically exposed and developing the antibodies. What we don't know is if those horses will be protected for life, or when those antibodies will wear off. We do know that horses are very susceptible to this virus, unlike dogs and most humans. I would keep vaccinating for West Nile, just like I would vaccinate for Tetanus; horses are just more susceptible to certain diseases than other animals. If you truly believe that you are over-vaccinating then the least you should do is make sure that your young animals receive the appropriate vaccines and boosters and then you can place your hope in long-term immunity.

I think there are some risks to vaccines, as there is with many things in medicine. However, I do believe that vaccinating saves lives that would otherwise be lost. I have seen (in the Amish community here) horses die from tetanus and West Nile; watching that can make you a believer in vaccinating wisely.

[siegi b.]

Thank you, Hillside for the information.... I absolutely believe in vaccinating (and boostering) youngsters and agree that tetanus immunization is a must for horses. I also use 3-way, rhino/flu, and rabies in my program and am just now starting to question West Nile for next year's vaccinations.

It's refreshing to hear other opinions on the subject without just being told to do as the vet says. I try to do the best for my animals, large and small, and that includes reading all the pertinent research papers I can get my hands on. In addition, there are several veterinarians that I can call my friends and they have been quite helpful on this subject as well.

[Fairview Horse Center]

For me, I always do EWT, and Rabies. West Nile has also been on my must have list, but may not be in the future. As for flu & rhino, I can't realy justify that for routine horses. The vaccines are very short lived, 2-3 months. Who does flu and rhinos every 2 to 3 months? Most people do yearly boosters, so what happens the rest of the 7-8 months? The rhino does not cover the neuro form, just the mild cold form. It is a yes (pnumabort) for pregnant mares, but the rest? I do give the flu with pre-foaling vaccines. I want to make sure I can cover things that are very deadly, no cure, and higher risk. PHF is VERY low risk, probably not very effective, and they do know how to treat it now, which was not the case in 1979 when we were all in meetings about several hundred horses a year dropping like flies within a few miles of the river.