Addition of 3'3 A/O division

[Nickelodian]

I apologize in advance if this has already been discussed....

I noticed when I got my first prizelist for 09' shows that there is now a 3'3 A/O division being offered. I looked it up in the 09' USEF rulebook, and sure enough there are two A/O divisions listed.

What is the general consensus regarding this new division? Is there really a high demand for something b/w the adults and the 3'6? Will this mean that many adults will "move up" sooner since it's a nationally recognized division?

I just don't know what the huge demand for a 3'3 division would be, but maybe I'm missing something?

[Giddy-up]

It could used as a place for people who own their horse to move out of the 3' adults (where people can catch ride) without having to make the 6" leap up to the AOs.

As for demand: there must of been enough of a request they granted it.

I know in my area the divisions get small in the winter. All of them. People go to warmer climates. The AOs are combined (if they run) & sometimes the AAs have to combine an age group to make it happen as well. In the summers it gets better.

I think the "low" AOs will need 2-3 years to really assess if it's a good addition or not.

[Tex Mex]

Most of the A shows in CA have offered a Low A/O division for the past few years. There are usually 5-10 horses in it. You can cross enter on another horse into the 3'6 but you can NOT cross enter into the A/As. It's good for riders moving up from the A/As who own their own horse, or I know there are some A/O riders bringing along green horses who do one in the lows and one in the regulars.

[advantagepa]

I think that it is a great addition to the show world. I know a few horses here that have the ability to do the 3'6" but their owners are a little "shy" about making the step up. This additional division is a great way for everyone to move up at their own pace. There is such a huge difference between how you ride a 3' class and a 3'6" class that making this division should make things a little less scary. I give the USEF respect for listening to its members.

[MLP]

I like the idea too, if there aren't enough entries for the division they could always pin it against the high a/os, like leave an open card, run the 3'3" horses, let them do their courses and then put the jumps up and run the higher horses and pin together. In that case it may actually help the current situation seeing that many times the A/Os don't fill, this way if you have 2 highs and 2 lows the division fills for both and then you get judged at your height. Kind of like pinning the green hunters, first and second year together but of course each jumps their respective height. I think it is a great thing!

[bhrunner06]

why not have it an a/a class instead of a/o...it may fill better with just an a/a title insted of the rider having to own the horse...

[Mav226]

I'm not crazy about the idea. The shows already run late into the night, and for crying out loud, it's a difference of 3 little inches.

[Texan By The Grace Of God]

Since its nationally recognized will it be offered at say Indoors, Devon, etc?

[Limone]

i love the idea! i have a 6 yr old mare that is going to be starting the 1st years in fl and i am ready to move up but want her to have a professional year at the 3'6'' level so this way we may be able to do the a/os and compete at a national level while she still has a very positive 1st 3'6'' year!oh im so excited!

[Trixie]

I think it should be an A/A division. Restricting it to owners is a bad idea and prevents those of us who don't own horses from moving up.

[advantagepa]

Some of the 3ft adults like to go south for the winter but aren't ready for the huge 3'6" and by adding this division at least their points will count! I think it should be an A/O thing and not an A/A... It weeds out the shamateurs...

[Coreene]

Most of the A shows in CA have offered a Low A/O division for the past few years. There are usually 5-10 horses in it. You can cross enter on another horse into the 3'6 but you can NOT cross enter into the A/As. It's good for riders moving up from the A/As who own their own horse, or I know there are some A/O riders bringing along green horses who do one in the lows and one in the regulars.I remember when the Low A/O division was started - everyone was tired of losing to Mary Ann Weisberg-Perry! :lol:

[bascher]

I would definitely do it...so it it will be a division at indoors, devon, etc?

[Trixie]

I think it should be an A/O thing and not an A/A... It weeds out the shamateurs...

And screws those of us who aren't good enough to be professionals, but don't have the money/capability of having their own horse, and would like to ride above 3'.

A shamateur you can file a complaint against. The rest of us are just stuck, unless you want to do jumpers or show unrated. Furthermore, the A/O divisions aren't crowded as it is. Keeping them restricted to owners isn't helping that cause.

[Texan By The Grace Of God]

Does anyone know if it will be offered at devon and indoors?

[Smiles]

Just a reminder but shows don't have to offer the division if they already have the regular a/o division in the prize book and they only offer half the prize money in the lower a/o. Don't know about finals but I would think for shows like washington/devon with limited space already they might not offer the division.

[sopha]

I would hope that it will not be a division at Devon and indoors. With B and C shows able to run the Junior and AO's at 3'3," there already is a step up division for people. I think it is good to have to aspire to go to indoors and Devon; if we keep lowering the heights of the jumps soon enough you will be able to qualify for cross rail hunters- you can already win a WEF cooler in that division!

[Madeline]

Time for a logic check. Get out a 6 inch ruler. Look at half the distance. That's less than the width of a standard rail... Now take that ruler and look at it in comparison to your horse. You don't think that 6 inches really makes a difference to your horse (as long as it's bigger than a small pony), do you? Much less three inches? Real horses do not live and perform in 3 inch increments.

Now take that ruler out to the barn and discuss it with your horse...

Really.

[Texan By The Grace Of God]

Personally, there really is no need for this division. I doubt it will fill.

[joyful]

Speaking from experience, 6" is a big leap, especially when the 3' divisions often are not 3', yet the 3'6" are true! I have a baby horse that isn't even doing the 2'6" classes yet, but I sure hope the 3'3" division is alive and well when I'm ready to go from the AA's to the AO's!

[bascher]

Speaking from experience, 6" is a big leap, especially when the 3' divisions often are not 3', yet the 3'6" are true! I have a baby horse that isn't even doing the 2'6" classes yet, but I sure hope the 3'3" division is alive and well when I'm ready to go from the AA's to the AO's!

I agree, you might not think three or six inches is huge, but for my baby, it matters. Whether you think it is a small increment or not, it's still a big step for horses that are still learning how to do everything.

[monalisa]

There is a difference between 3'3 and 3'6. I own a talented horse that competed this year in the high Pre Greens (3'3) but is not talented enough to do 3'6. There are some, like him, that do not have quite enough step to do the 3'6 successfully.

It is a great idea and gives some of us another option, another goal to work towards. I like having it an A/O division and hope it works out.

[DreamsofbeingaHunter]

I think that it is stupid to make another A/O division so that the moving up process is easier. I did the Adults a year ago and then I moved up to the Open Hunter since they were 3'3"-3'5". I thought that it was a nice way to move up because the height was between the two divisions. I realize that means that I was and others who may choose this option will be competing against pros which may not be easy. However if you can place in the Opens and do the courses without a problem then when it's time to do the A/O's it will make things that much easier for you.

Also if you go look at the jumper divisions for amatuers there's a huge jump in there too. They offer a high/low section in both the Child/Adult and the Jr/A/O's. The high child/adult is offered at 3'6" and the low jr/a/o's are usually offered at 4'! Now if there is a problem with moving up for these riders then they either stay were they are at or do the schooling jumpers (usually at 3'9") or the level jumpers. Which again is most pros on green horses but again I feel that if you can compete against and place in the pro divisions it makes moving up less scary.

[Giddy-up]

You can cross enter on another horse into the 3'6 but you can NOT cross enter into the A/As.

Since the AAs are zone regulated that's going to vary. Make sure to read the rule book for where you are showing. Here in Zone 5 you can show in the AOs & show 1 horse in the AAs if you own or USEF lease it.

I like the idea too, if there aren't enough entries for the division they could always pin it against the high a/os, like leave an open card, run the 3'3" horses, let them do their courses and then put the jumps up and run the higher horses and pin together.

I don't know if that's possible since the prize money for the "low" has to be 1/2 of what is offered for the "high". It's not like combining the small & large juniors who have the same exact specs except for the horse's height difference.

As was mentioned earlier, this is an optional type division. A show isn't required to offer it. I guess it depends if the show managers in the area feel there is a need for it or it's been asked to be added. If you want the division, I would contact the show managers now to let them know you are interested & will be attending the show to support it.

[Janet]

Time for a logic check. Get out a 6 inch ruler. Look at half the distance. That's less than the width of a standard rail... Now take that ruler and look at it in comparison to your horse. You don't think that 6 inches really makes a difference to your horse (as long as it's bigger than a small pony), do you? Much less three inches? Real horses do not live and perform in 3 inch increments.

Now take that ruler out to the barn and discuss it with your horse...

Really.
Bu it makes a BIG difference to the rider.

[Andrew]

Personally, there really is no need for this division. I doubt it will fill.


I totally agree with TBYGOG on this..
3' A/A 3'6 A/O plain and simple...

[S4zeus]

Time for a logic check. Get out a 6 inch ruler. Look at half the distance. That's less than the width of a standard rail... Now take that ruler and look at it in comparison to your horse. You don't think that 6 inches really makes a difference to your horse (as long as it's bigger than a small pony), do you? Much less three inches? Real horses do not live and perform in 3 inch increments.

Now take that ruler out to the barn and discuss it with your horse...

Really.


I love this! I agree whole-heartedly!

[Biscotti]

A shamateur you can file a complaint against. The rest of us are just stuck, unless you want to do jumpers or show unrated. Furthermore, the A/O divisions aren't crowded as it is. Keeping them restricted to owners isn't helping that cause.

No, you can't, because shammy's are smart and don't leave a paper trail. You can almost never file a formal complaint against them, or you can, but the USEF won't do jack about it without a paper trail and serious evidence. And I think it depends on where you are. Our A/O divisions are usually chunky, I know in zone 2 they are usually also very competitive and in California.

Some people get sick of 3' and want to step it up but the A/Os are EXTREMELY competitive in lots of our zones.

I think it's a great idea and really, the argument that if you can't own a horse to go higher than 3', this is not affecting your problem. There is a reason that to get about 3', you need to commit to purchasing your own horse. That was how it was before the 3'3" A/Os, that's how it still is.

Time for a logic check. Get out a 6 inch ruler. Look at half the distance. That's less than the width of a standard rail... Now take that ruler and look at it in comparison to your horse. You don't think that 6 inches really makes a difference to your horse (as long as it's bigger than a small pony), do you? Much less three inches? Real horses do not live and perform in 3 inch increments.

Now take that ruler out to the barn and discuss it with your horse...

Really.

I don't know if you have any experience with show horses at all, but that is one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever heard. Being competitive at 3' is an entirely different thing than being competitive over 3'6". There are also horses that easily max out at 3'3" and could never do the 3'6".

[Duckz]

No, you can't, because shammy's are smart and don't leave a paper trail. You can almost never file a formal complaint against them, or you can, but the USEF won't do jack about it without a paper trail and serious evidence. And I think it depends on where you are. Our A/O divisions are usually chunky, I know in zone 2 they are usually also very competitive and in California.

Some people get sick of 3' and want to step it up but the A/Os are EXTREMELY competitive in lots of our zones.

I think it's a great idea and really, the argument that if you can't own a horse to go higher than 3', this is not affecting your problem. There is a reason that to get about 3', you need to commit to purchasing your own horse. That was how it was before the 3'3" A/Os, that's how it still is.



I don't know if you have any experience with show horses at all, but that is one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever heard. Being competitive at 3' is an entirely different thing than being competitive over 3'6". There are also horses that easily max out at 3'3" and could never do the 3'6".

Thank you. My thoughts exactly on the shamateurs and the 3' vs. 3'6" :yes:

[00Jumper]

I'm in the 'suck it up and go the 6 inches' camp. It's not that different, really, I promise. No, I swear. Really.

There are people out there saying that their horses are competitive at 3'3" and not at 3'6". And I call BS. There are horses that are competitive at 3' and not 3'6", I'll buy that, but if your horse is competitive at 3'3" it should be competitive at 3'6". If not, what you've got yourself there is a 3' horse that is being pushed.

Just my humble opinion. I'm one of those grouches that thinks your horse should always be able to compete above the level you actually compete at, even if only by three inches, especially in amateur divisions. Because that way if you make a mistake, your horse has enough athleticism to get you out of it. If you're showing a horse at the top of its competitive level, you've got no margin of error. You can see it everywhere, from the 2' horses trying to pack around 2'6" and having stops or pulling rails, to Grand Prix jumpers slamming on the breaks when their riders (who make mistakes, no, for real, they do sometimes :lol:) don't find that exact takeoff spot at the base of the fence.

*shrug* You know, just another person's two cents.:winkgrin:

[Ijump2]

I will show in the 3'3" A/O's and so will several of my friends (we can fill the division). My horse can easily do the 3'6" but I am a very busy new mom that is still trying to fit her horses in her life and 3'6" takes a lot more preparation and guts than I have to spare right now. I love the idea of a stepping stone and new goal to work towards. I will 100% support this division at every show I attend. As for it being A/A vs. A/O, again with everything else going on in my life showing against shamateurs that ride more times in one day than I do in a week is annoying. I like the idea of riding against true amateurs that are in a similar situation as myself.

I don't know why so many people don't like this idea. I don't feel that this new division will make shows bigger and longer. I think it will cut the A/A's from 50 to 40 and add 10 in the new division. It is a wash.

[Texan By The Grace Of God]

I feel like the REAL division that is need is a 3'6" A/A division. I have my own horse that can do the A/Os but I know there are people who don't have the funds to have a horse but they would still like to compete at 3'6". Not everyone is capable of owning a horse and I think this new 'division' is still rewarding the upper crust.

The idea that if you want to show over 3' you need to own your own horse is silly .

[Eyemadonkee]

I think it's great! It isn't adding more trips to the day, it's just redistributing the numbers and adding a hack and a few jogs... that's what... 30 extra minutes, at most? Those 30 minutes could easily be found if the rings didn't stand open for hours on end... Hopefully the numbers in the A/Os will increase and the A/As will decrease and it will encourage more of the A/As to move up and start going to the bigger shows again.

[Trixie]

No, you can't, because shammy's are smart and don't leave a paper trail. You can almost never file a formal complaint against them, or you can, but the USEF won't do jack about it without a paper trail and serious evidence.

I think it's ridiculous to base our division criteria and eligibility specifically on keeping out those that break them. Besides, cheaters will ALWAYS find a way, no matter how many loopholes the USEF writes in.


Some people get sick of 3' and want to step it up but the A/Os are EXTREMELY competitive in lots of our zones.

I didn't say they weren't competitive, but the number of A/Os is still FAR less than that of A/As. Why should the goal of "stepping it up" be to step it up in lesser competition?

There is a reason that to get about 3', you need to commit to purchasing your own horse. That was how it was before the 3'3" A/Os, that's how it still is.

Please, by all means, tell me the "reason" that one "needs to commit to buying their own horse." So the sport can cater to specifically to those who can afford the time to ride as an amateur or pay someone to keep the horse tuned for them, while still affording to pay all the bills of an animal competing at the "A" level - ie, those with a lot of disposable income?

We can't keep bemoaning the lack of improvement in the sport (people are staying at the lower levels too long, in my day EVERYONE jumped 3'6", crest release, etc) and then make it extremely restrictive for those that want to move up.

[Parminch]

This was passed last year at the convention after much discussion. (The owners committee of the USHJA proposed it) There were a lot of threads on here about it at this time last year too. I can tell you for a fact that it got passed with the wording the way it is, because that is the ONLY way it was going to pass. It was discussed and re-written a thousand times and got written in the end the only way that the USHJA knew that it would get passed by the board of the USHJA and ultimately the board of the USEF.

It got tested at several horse shows this year and was a huge success! It has been found that the main thing helping and or hurting it as far as numbers is when the management puts it into the schedule. The committee was aware of this before it got passed. Time schedules are tight as it is. It was always known that this would be a problem.
Will it go over in your area? Maybe not, but it will get offered and it will be a successful division in other areas. Horse Shows do not have to offer it but they can if they want. It only has to give out 1/2 of the prize money of the A/Os in order to be recognized. It is an A division. As far as indoors and Devon etc. I am sure if they find that it gets enough interest then it will be offered ..if it only gets a luke warm reception then probably not.
You all can discuss AA vs. A/O till the cows come home... the committee in fact did. I can tell you for a fact that the language that the rule has now is the ONLY way anything was going to pass. It is a huge step in the right direction. I hope if you are interested in it you will seek shows that offer it and show in it. If a manager puts it in a time slot that keeps you from showing in the division then please tell them so that they know there is interest. If you are not interested in it.. then continue showing in the A/Os and or adults just like before. They are still there. This was just to give another option.

[RV]

I'm not crazy about the idea. The shows already run late into the night, and for crying out loud, it's a difference of 3 little inches.

I tend to agree, shows already run so late, there are plenty of posts and complaints about showing in the dark and dumbing down divisions. I do see both sides to this argument, but if someone wants to get a bit more show mileage over fences larger than 3' there is always the jumper ring, the low adults are run at level 2, - 3'3" and the jumper rings typically tend to run faster and move along better than those in hunter land.

[Madeline]

I don't know if you have any experience with show horses at all, but that is one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever heard. Being competitive at 3' is an entirely different thing than being competitive over 3'6". There are also horses that easily max out at 3'3" and could never do the 3'6".

We'll have to disagree on this one. I'll buy that there are several horses who cannot make the move from 3'6" to 4' and remain competitive, but 3'6" is probably within the reach of 90% of good large ponies. I will concede that a huge % of the riders showing at 3' don't believe that they or their horses can move up. But it isn't the horses.
( I've been out of hunter showing for a while. Maybe those obese WB's really can't move up, but my money is on the riders...)

[findeight]

Zone 5 and several others already put the A/A from 2'9" to 3'3" and the better shows will have some of the fences at 3'3". IIRC Florida is the same and WEF has a 3'3" A/A, or did when I was last down there.

Posted before, would rather they dropped the Owner part if they want more participation.

Also disagree most horses can do any particular height well enough to pin in good Hunter competition. Even my nice 3'er that could handle the height would have been a bit challenged by the lines unless it was a really big ring. She pretty much would top out at 3'3", 3'6" out of the question.

IMO it is a redundant division at most big circuit shows and does not open anything up with the Owner restriction.

[eclipse]

We've ALWAY'S had a 3'3 division up here, & guess what IT'S the division that fills up not the 3'6 division! But, ours is open to all riders (regardless of whether they own or not). For some people, 3" can make all the difference of whether they can show or not. Plus, our shows don't last into the night, but then again we don't allow ring warm-ups every day either! :)

[MLP]

Well not that it really relates exactly to this topic since we are talking hunters but if anyone has looked at the Syracuse schedule they have high, med and low a/o and junior jumper classes AND classics. I think that is a bit of overkill but why is it ok for the jumpers to have options but the A/O hunters not. I will definitely use this division for my young horse next year as the pro will be doing the 3'6" but I want to be in a bit more of a comfort zone so I am opting to do the 3'3", the 3" might not mean a lot to my horse but it sure will make me feel like I can make a mistake or two and not max him out. I like the idea and I guess time will tell if others do too. If this division isn't there I am sure there will be some sort of modified option for me but it would be nice to go for year end awards.

[DuffyAgain]

For me, that 3" is more like a FOOT! (3'3" and 3'6") :winkgrin: Methinks my trainer would agree. :lol:

Thank you for your hard work in getting this passed, Parminch. I will do my best to attempt to compete in the new division, if offered. :)

[Summit Springs Farm]

For all of you that say what's 3 inches, I'd like to know what height you show at and if you are currently showing?

Because you have no idea.:o

There is a 3'3" pregreen division, so what's the big deal about having a 3'3" division for the riders?????

[findeight]

There is a 3'3" pregreen division, so what's the big deal about having a 3'3" division for the riders?????

Because some of the zones already have either the regular A/As to 3'3", a seperate A/A at 3'3" and this new A/O division requires ownership and excludes leases.

So it is not just a class for 3'3" riders, only owners.

Heck, I am an owner anyway but just don't see a pressing need.

[Madeline]

For all of you that say what's 3 inches, I'd like to know what height you show at and if you are currently showing?

Because you have no idea.:o

There is a 3'3" pregreen division, so what's the big deal about having a 3'3" division for the riders?????

I usually get to one AA show a year and do the L3 jumpers. Before I moved to Vermont I showed junior hunters (Harrisburg, Washington, Devon), junior jumpers, open jumper a little, and Working hunters a lot when I was a young teenager. (I was tiny and showing a 16.2 horse. Suitability didn't count in Workings and we got marked down as unsuitable in the juniors despite the fact that I was hunting the horse at the time). That was in the days before trainers ruled the world and when the A/O division was brand new.

So I have an idea. 3'6" is not a big fence.

[Trixie]

For all of you that say what's 3 inches, I'd like to know what height you show at and if you are currently showing?

Showed 3'6" jumpers last year before retiring my jumper... currently showing the hunter I show over 3' because I can't move him up even if I wanted to - there's nothing for me to show him in!

I agree that the jump between 3' and 3'6" is often based more on the riders psyche than the horses, however, it can be a different ballgame to not only get a horse over a 3'6" course but to make the strides and put in a competitive (pretty) trip. If there were unrelated distances and striding didn't count, you might find more horses that could do the 3'6" competitively.

Heck, my jumper had one of the prettiest jumps I've ever seen. She's also 15.1 and a half or something - short. And short strided. HEIGHT or jump width was never the issue - I've jumped her over courses higher than 4' - but there's no way she could do the A/Os because there's no way she could make the strides.

[eclipse]

For all of you that say what's 3 inches, I'd like to know what height you show at and if you are currently showing?

Because you have no idea.:o



I currently show in the 3ft3 & 3ft6 divisions (jumpers though) and guess what, while I am very competitive at both of these heights my mare just does not have the scope for the extra 3" to safely go around 3ft9 (without the perfect distance she stops, yet at 3ft6 will take off from anywhere!). So, yes...I am in the camp that believes those 3" CAN make all the difference!

[RV]

Speaking of jumpers, the same step up in rated divisions – from A/A to A/O - is potentially 9” in that A/A is run a L3 (3’6”) and the low A/Os is a L5 (4’) or L6 (4’3”) depending on the show. The more I think of it the more irritated I am by this division.

I’m schooling 4’/4’3” at home and starting to compete at L4 (3’9”) since I freeze up a bit at shows, I would love to step into a rated division and compete against my peers instead of all the pros, but I am not ready to show at that height, we need to be patient and wait until we are - it’s about setting and achieving goals, not making the goals easier. As a sport, we need to move away from instant gratification. There are SO many posts and topics on this board about the dumbing down of our sport adn riders that just can't ride, the feature article in Equestrian for October was about how we’ve lost horsemanship and need to go back to basics. There are plenty of opportunities to show at 3’3”, go to the jumper ring, do a low hunter or schooling trip along with the pros, there are no restrictions on those divisions against A/Os or A/A, sure it’s tougher to beat the pros, but come on it’s a competition, build up the miles until you are ready for the A/Os. I would rather see them add a High A/O class at 4’ to help the hunter market. There really is no market for a 4’ hunter these days, sure the pros enjoy a regular working trip and those horses can find jumper careers, but the hunter capable of over 3’6” has really no role or place in the amateur market. There is a lot of discussion over how to make hunters profitable again, and entice people to come back to the hunters, larger fences might be a great way to liven things up and revitalize that discipline.

Sure the 3” or 6” or 9” move up is a challenge, I’m not disputing or arguing that, but isn’t that what this sport is about? Sure you have kids, a spouse, work and all the other non-horse responsibilities of life, but you need to set priorities to make your goals happen and/or accept that it may take a bit longer than you wanted or anticipated. As GM says, “This is horses, not tiddlywinks”, it’s not supposed to be easy. Rise to the challenge, stop lowering the bar.

[Tex Mex]

I'm not sure if anyone has brought this up yet but if an A/O rider has a young horse they can show in the Low A/Os and not break his first year status, right? Because that to me would be an important issue. Especially if I already had a "going" 3'6 horse, then I could do one in the regular A/Os and one in the Lows.

[eclipse]

Sure the 3” or 6” or 9” move up is a challenge, I’m not disputing or arguing that, but isn’t that what this sport is about? Sure you have kids, a spouse, work and all the other non-horse responsibilities of life, but you need to set priorities to make your goals happen and/or accept that it may take a bit longer than you wanted or anticipated. As GM says, “This is horses, not tiddlywinks”, it’s not supposed to be easy. Rise to the challenge, stop lowering the bar.

If it were only that easy! Sigh........you also have to have the $$$$$ to puchase the HORSE to get you to those heights! I think a BIG reason there are so many lower height classes, is to bring the sport to the more average income person. Horse prices have become ridiculous & to even "think" about stepping into the 4ft ring (up in Alberta at least) you better have at least $70,000+ to buy a horse capable. And then you better be able to afford to go to the shows (but that's a whole different discussion!) You can bet that if I had a horse that had the scope to do 4ft & bigger I'd damn well be in that ring, so GM can sprout all he wants.....until they start bringing horse prices (& training fees) down to a more reasonable level, there'll always be a LOT of lower height classes!

[drawreins]

3'3" simply serves as a transition height to go from 3' to 3'6". Riders tend to feel that even though they can jump around a 3' course without distance errors, they worry that when the height is 3'6" they won't be able to find good distances. 3'6" is a nice size fence, and although many riders could easily transition from 3' to 3'6", having a division at 3'3" helps them feel better about moving up. In all honesty, riders know that they can't make too many distance errors at the 3'6" height. That alone makes them feel insecure about going from 3' to 3'6". A 3'3" division helps to lay their fears to rest.

[APirateLooksAtForty]

so what big shows are having it? I haven't seen it on any prizelists and it's definitely not on the schedule for ocala

[RV]

Horse prices have become ridiculous & to even "think" about stepping into the 4ft ring (up in Alberta at least) you better have at least $70,000+ to buy a horse capable. And then you better be able to afford to go to the shows (but that's a whole different discussion!)


I agree that affording to show is a problem, I'm in that boat, that's why I freeze, we only show one or two AAs a year and probably three or four locals, so every round counts. BUT I got my current horse - who will jump around 4'3" with me for 15K. He couldn't steer and bronced around the ring for the first month I had him, and then spun and dumped me daily for the next month, but that's where the work comes in. I couldn’t afford lessons or training – still can’t – and had to do it myself, sure we’d be a lot further if $ didn’t get in the way, but life isn’t fair nor should we try to make the show world, it is not possible, we all need to learn to play with the hand we are dealt. Some people have a lot more resources than others; no division addition is going to change that.

It doesn't cost any less to lesson, train and show in the 18" cross rail division than in the 4’ Reg Workings. Best advice I ever got was to buy the best you could afford because after the purchase price they all cost the same. . . It all comes down to how much you put into it, and I’m not talking about $. Go to the library, look on the internet, seek out your own resources, watch the shows you can’t participate in, watch lessons, watch clinics, watch a friend school a greenie, watch and absorb anything and everything. Showing is $$$$$ it will always be, sure you can go and shell out 70K-150K+ and be in the division you want to tomorrow, but is that what we really want to do? The instant gratification does not, and will not, create riders or foster horsemanship. If it is not our intention, at the individual level, to become better riders and better horsemen, why continue to participate in the charade?

[BridalBridle]

It's not so much the 6" that are the issue...it's the distances. I think the better riders can test the strides and move up the lines better with the bigger jumps. I've gone to some AA shows and the Adult jumps looked 2'6" ....what do you do with that? If a horse and rider have been out for a while...having a baby or injury or just time off ....they can get back in and not feel like they have to go to the AA div to get back in the game. With 3 HUGE div of AA's and only a few A/O's its about time the better AAs have a place to go. Also the "catch riders" on sale horses do have to stay in the lower div.

[eclipse]

I agree that affording to show is a problem, I'm in that boat, that's why I freeze, we only show one or two AAs a year and probably three or four locals, so every round counts. BUT I got my current horse - who will jump around 4'3" with me for 15K. He couldn't steer and bronced around the ring for the first month I had him, and then spun and dumped me daily for the next month, but that's where the work comes in. I couldn’t afford lessons or training – still can’t – and had to do it myself, sure we’d be a lot further if $ didn’t get in the way, but life isn’t fair nor should we try to make the show world, it is not possible, we all need to learn to play with the hand we are dealt. Some people have a lot more resources than others; no division addition is going to change that.

It doesn't cost any less to lesson, train and show in the 18" cross rail division than in the 4’ Reg Workings. Best advice I ever got was to buy the best you could afford because after the purchase price they all cost the same. . . It all comes down to how much you put into it, and I’m not talking about $. Go to the library, look on the internet, seek out your own resources, watch the shows you can’t participate in, watch lessons, watch clinics, watch a friend school a greenie, watch and absorb anything and everything. Showing is $$$$$ it will always be, sure you can go and shell out 70K-150K+ and be in the division you want to tomorrow, but is that what we really want to do? The instant gratification does not, and will not, create riders or foster horsemanship. If it is not our intention, at the individual level, to become better riders and better horsemen, why continue to participate in the charade?

Agree, & that is why I bought my mare as a baby & trained her upto 3ft6. BUT, for my next horse, personally I really don't want to do the whole greenie, bronc riding, training thing AGAIN. This time "I" want to be trained to go higher! So, now I have the dubious pleasure of trying to find that ever-elusive horse that has been in the 4ft's for less than a massive amount of $$$$$$$. It's a completely different ride over that 3ft6 mark and now "I've" got to learn how to ride for that height.....sadly, as yet, I just haven't had the finances to be able to sit on a horse that has "been there & done that"....And, for some people, it's not even about going ever-higher; they ride at 3ft & 3ft3 because it's FUN (and isn't that the point of it all anyway!) :D

[ccoronios]

Quote:
Madeline:
"Originally Posted by Biscotti

I don't know if you have any experience with show horses at all, but that is one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever heard. Being competitive at 3' is an entirely different thing than being competitive over 3'6". There are also horses that easily max out at 3'3" and could never do the 3'6"."

We'll have to disagree on this one. I'll buy that there are several horses who cannot make the move from 3'6" to 4' and remain competitive, but 3'6" is probably within the reach of 90% of good large ponies. I will concede that a huge % of the riders showing at 3' don't believe that they or their horses can move up. But it isn't the horses.
( I've been out of hunter showing for a while. Maybe those obese WB's really can't move up, but my money is on the riders...)

MY money is on the "trainers" - and then the riders.

[JB]

Time for a logic check. Get out a 6 inch ruler. Look at half the distance. That's less than the width of a standard rail... Now take that ruler and look at it in comparison to your horse. You don't think that 6 inches really makes a difference to your horse (as long as it's bigger than a small pony), do you? Much less three inches? Real horses do not live and perform in 3 inch increments.

Now take that ruler out to the barn and discuss it with your horse...

Really.

It's more than a simple 3" vertical difference. All the shows I've seen that have a 3'6" division *also* pull those oxer apart for a wider jump AND lengthen the lines a little. 3' vs 3'6" vertical, sure, I can't say as I've seen them put in more ground line filler stuff ;) But those oxers grow by a lot more than a mere 6 vertical inches.

[chawley]

[QUOTE=findeight;3615581]Zone 5 and several others already put the A/A from 2'9" to 3'3" and the better shows will have some of the fences at 3'3". IIRC Florida is the same and WEF has a 3'3" A/A, or did when I was last down there.

Posted before, would rather they dropped the Owner part if they want more participation.

Also disagree most horses can do any particular height well enough to pin in good Hunter competition. Even my nice 3'er that could handle the height would have been a bit challenged by the lines unless it was a really big ring. She pretty much would top out at 3'3", 3'6" out of the question.

QUOTE]

I agree with findeight. My horse had no problem doing 3' AA in his day, but he would have never made it as a 3'6" horse. Just wasn't in his scope.

I did hear they might move Zone 5 AA down to 3' from 3'3"? Is that true?

[Nickelodian]

so what big shows are having it? I haven't seen it on any prizelists and it's definitely not on the schedule for ocala

The show I was speaking to isn't a "big" show. But they not only have 3'3 A/O on Thurs/Friday but they also have 3'3 modified jr/am running Saturday Sunday.

[Giddy-up]

I did hear they might move Zone 5 AA down to 3' from 3'3"? Is that true?

:lol: I have yet to ever see it at 3'3" at shows I attend. It's usually what I would call a "weak" 3' the first day & then the 2nd day it might actually be 3'. Perhaps other parts of the Zone have seen it at 3'3"?

[Tex Mex]

The 3'6 is also more technical at most of the big shows. Usually at the shows I go to, the A/As and children's are even in a different ring. The 3'6 classes will have longer lines (like an 8 stride) or a line that has a 4 to a 2 or a 2 stride by itself. That combined with the courses set on a longer stride and the fences being wider makes it more challenging, as well as the fact that rated horses have to jog for soundness. A 3' horse and a 3'6 horse are two completely different animals in my opinion, and usually a 3'6 horse costs a LOT more money. So for those of you who are saying it's not much of a difference, I don't really understand because at an A rated horse show the A/A ring and the A/O ring are completely different worlds.

[Biscotti]

The 3'6 is also more technical at most of the big shows. Usually at the shows I go to, the A/As and children's are even in a different ring. The 3'6 classes will have longer lines (like an 8 stride) or a line that has a 4 to a 2 or a 2 stride by itself. That combined with the courses set on a longer stride and the fences being wider makes it more challenging, as well as the fact that rated horses have to jog for soundness. A 3' horse and a 3'6 horse are two completely different animals in my opinion, and usually a 3'6 horse costs a LOT more money. So for those of you who are saying it's not much of a difference, I don't really understand because at an A rated horse show the A/A ring and the A/O ring are completely different worlds.

Thank you! It's not just the 3", like people have said, it's what comes with the 3", which further makes me think that these "oh, it's just 3 inches" folks are full of it, because someone who is experienced in jumping courses would know there is more to jumps than the vertical height.

My horse is a packer in the A/As, but he has never shown above the 3'3" in the pre-greens. I'd like to be able to have a stepping stone for BOTH of us before we try our hand in the A/Os: sure, my trainer can ride him in a 3'6" open class, but I would have to go from 3' to 3'6", and maybe it makes me a BAD RIDER, but I think the difference between these fences is huge:
3'6":
http://www.nhs.org/news/photos/adazzlingdisplaybyellentoonand.jpg
3':
http://www.snapdragonstables.com/images/kalliezones.jpg

[JB]

TexMex, thank you, you added even more to what I was saying

Biscotti, exactly! LOOK how big the spread difference is between those 2. The 3' standard feet overlap. The 3'6" standard feet are separated by... 6"?

MUCH bigger jump than simply 6" taller.

[Biscotti]

TexMex, thank you, you added even more to what I was saying

Biscotti, exactly! LOOK how big the spread difference is between those 2. The 3' standard feet overlap. The 3'6" standard feet are separated by... 6"?

MUCH bigger jump than simply 6" taller.

:yes: And that 3'6" jump scares the piss out of me as a 3' rider. And as a disclaimer, those are both from zone children's/junior finals, so those are REALLY 3' and REALLY 3'6".

[Duckz]

Wow, those pictures make a good point :eek: I will definitely be moving to 3'3" first if it's an option! My guy makes 3' look small, so I know HE won't care about the height, but some of us adults are chickens :lol:

[findeight]

That picture say what I was going to post better then I could have.

You can watch all the jumping you want, audit clinics, watch videos and read millions of pages.

Please explain how that would help you coming off the corner turning away from the in gate looking down the diagonal at a birch vertical over a hedge at 3'6", 64 feet to a 3'6" oxer 3'6" wide stuffed with a stone wall followed by 51 feet to another 3'6" oxer 3'6" wide. How is reading going to prepare you to sail smoothly over that? What of you blew the lead change and have a cross canter and not enough pace (besides feeling like you are going to die)? You got 4 strides to fix it before the vertical.

That is why I never felt like I wanted to move up. Just schooling over a Junior course but I looked down that line with that cross canter and realized I just didn't have enough horse. Even though we could handle 3'9" on a single fence, no way was there enough in the tank for the sh*t that invariably occurs diuring your average Hunter round-the ones that really can help you cover it up and look good. The ones lacking can't help much.

[BestKept]

I know I am talking a different ring here, but this year was the first year they really introduced the low and high adult jumpers here-we are in same zone. I feel it has completely diluted the adults as far as entries go, case in point, Tyler this weekend, 2 thats right, 2 low adult jumpers, and 3 high adult jumpers. Hence, classes are almost always combined. Personally, i think they needed a step between the ch/ad l2-3 and modified L5. But not sure if this was the way to go. They really only run 1 of the class at L4 ususally, so not sure this really helped the issue. Also, the problem filling the highs completely this year i think was THJA was lagging in keeping up with rule changes and did not recognize the highs this year, but will next, USEF recognized the highs this year. So, if you do the 3'3's, and are wanting points, make sure thja is going to recognize your class next year-words of wisdom from several unhappy ch/ad that did the highs at pin oak and spring gathering this year, only to find out later that our points would not count.

[Giddy-up]

I know I am talking a different ring here, but this year was the first year they really introduced the low and high adult jumpers here-we are in same zone. I feel it has completely diluted the adults as far as entries go, case in point, Tyler this weekend, 2 thats right, 2 low adult jumpers, and 3 high adult jumpers.

Well you are one lucky duck cause I can tell you firsthand at the shows by me the low adult jumpers (20+ minimum) and the high adult jumpers (20-25+ minimum) are not lacking in entries. Usually it's closer to 30 in the lows even. And the lows aren't even a Zone 5 recognized division (only in the state association).

[Biscotti]

Please explain how that would help you coming off the corner turning away from the in gate looking down the diagonal at a birch vertical over a hedge at 3'6", 64 feet to a 3'6" oxer 3'6" wide stuffed with a stone wall followed by 51 feet to another 3'6" oxer 3'6" wide. How is reading going to prepare you to sail smoothly over that? What of you blew the lead change and have a cross canter and not enough pace (besides feeling like you are going to die)? You got 4 strides to fix it before the vertical.

Exactly! Sometimes I think jumpers have it easy: sure the height is bigger, but hunter jumps are extremely intimidating in that they are usually hefty, stocked with walls and trees and boxes, with those huge solid looking standards. I'd rather run through a swedish oxer of rails than some of the tanks you see in the regulars, etc.

[DreamsofbeingaHunter]

It's more than a simple 3" vertical difference. All the shows I've seen that have a 3'6" division *also* pull those oxer apart for a wider jump AND lengthen the lines a little. 3' vs 3'6" vertical, sure, I can't say as I've seen them put in more ground line filler stuff ;) But those oxers grow by a lot more than a mere 6 vertical inches.

I understand where you all come from and maybe it's because I can't afford to show more than once a month. And even that's a stretch at times but if 6" scares you when it comes to moving up then why don't you just stay in the AA's another season or show in the Open Hunters which are 3'3". This is what I did this pass year since I wasn't quite ready to do the 3'6" at the big shows. I also understand the fact that many of you don't want to change to the Opens just because you won't be against all ammies and what would be your usual company BUT it would serve as a great stepping stone for you all! I agree with the ones who say to make a 3'3" AA division so there's a place for the good adult riders to go. There are barely enough A/O's to fill shows in my zone at the 3'6" level so why weed it out even more to make it even less likely for the division to fill??? I think they need to get rid of the 3'3" A/O division and for the adults to either stuck it up and wait another show season to move up or go and do the Opens for a year then go into the A/O's!

And yes I know how much wider the oxers can get with every 3" the jumps go up! I did the jumpers for many years and the oxers seemed to get 6"-9" wider and that's a lot! But if you can school that if not higher at home then there should not be an issue at the shows. Do your homework at home so there are no issues once you step into the show ring. Or if the extra 3" is that big of a deal just stick to the A/O's at the B and C shows where it will run at 3'3"!

[JB]

I understand where you all come from and maybe it's because I can't afford to show more than once a month. And even that's a stretch at times but if 6" scares you when it comes to moving up then why don't you just stay in the AA's another season
Because another season of 3' doesn't help ;)

or show in the Open Hunters which are 3'3". This is what I did this pass year since I wasn't quite ready to do the 3'6" at the big shows. I also understand the fact that many of you don't want to change to the Opens just because you won't be against all ammies and what would be your usual company BUT it would serve as a great stepping stone for you all!
It's an awfully expensive endeavor to go in knowing you aren't likely at all to pin.

I agree with the ones who say to make a 3'3" AA division so there's a place for the good adult riders to go. There are barely enough A/O's to fill shows in my zone at the 3'6" level so why weed it out even more to make it even less likely for the division to fill??? I think they need to get rid of the 3'3" A/O division and for the adults to either stuck it up and wait another show season to move up or go and do the Opens for a year then go into the A/O's!
I'm not actually voting for one division or another, just saying there is a BIG difference between a 3' and a 3'6" course :) I probably tend to side with those who would prefer to see this go with the AAs. OR, do as also suggested - if there aren't enough 3'3" AOs to fill, or not enough 3'6" AOs to fill, combine the class but run it at the different heights.

And yes I know how much wider the oxers can get with every 3" the jumps go up! I did the jumpers for many years and the oxers seemed to get 6"-9" wider and that's a lot! But if you can school that if not higher at home then there should not be an issue at the shows. Do your homework at home so there are no issues once you step into the show ring. Or if the extra 3" is that big of a deal just stick to the A/O's at the B and C shows where it will run at 3'3"!
Not a whole lot of people have the jumps at home to school a course of full (width, filler3'6" fences. Now, if people could school courses at home that were 3'9" and set on the scale (filler and width) of 3' courses, then a 3'6" show course might not be so daunting. But I'd bet most of those who are trying to make the jump to 3'6" either don't have the horse to do 3'9", or they themselves have no desire to :) But maybe that's just me :D

[Giddy-up]

Exactly! Sometimes I think jumpers have it easy: sure the height is bigger, but hunter jumps are extremely intimidating in that they are usually hefty, stocked with walls and trees and boxes, with those huge solid looking standards. I'd rather run through a swedish oxer of rails than some of the tanks you see in the regulars, etc.

:lol: That's the on-going discussion between my hunter friends & me over in jumperland. They can't imagine galloping to airy poles in the air jumps while I am like what is that solid monster looking single jump you are expected to lope down to on a floaty rein?? No thanks. At least I can have my horse's head up & butt in the tack (plus missing doesn't count). :D

[trv_at_tacf]

So now that everyone has put the opinions in, is anyone interested in showing in this new division?

For me this couldnt have been a better timing! I am planning on moving up starting December, I was gonna do a few shows at 3'3'' because there is a new rule that the A/Os and Jrs at B and C shows can be lowered to that height but those B and C shows are almost near impossible to fill, so if they offer this new division at bigger shows maybe there will be a chance it will fill. I only want to do some shows at this height for a stepping stool, then do the true 3'6.

Anyways, Is this division going to be offered at any kind of finals (Zone finals, Devon, Harrisburg, etc??) anyone know?

Just trying to get an idea if we have any takers on this division. I am in Zone 2, and often show eastern pa and NJ.

[Giddy-up]

So now that everyone has put the opinions in, is anyone interested in showing in this new division?

Maybe? I'm not really sure what my game plan is for my horses next summer, but I'll show in the division if it's offered & what I want to do. :)

[meupatdoes]

I'm a little confused about what all this opposition is.
Personally, I have a horse who isn't the fanciest, and no show mileage at 3'6", so I'd love a 3'3" division.
I also bring along green horses, and if I ever own a 3'6" horse, I will have built it not bought it, so I'd like a 3'3" division for that eventuality as well.

I'd also love the divisions to be open to people who don't own their own horses so everyone can play.

(Of course, in another thread there were people who were against the idea of the AA 3' classes and wanted all ammy catchriding banned, which I guess I am evil because every once in a while I throw the ride on my 3' AA horse to somebody else who doesn't own a horse.)

To the people who are so against this...what gives?
Either you DO ride the 3'6" A/Os regularly and are sitting aboard your tens of thousand dollars steed trying to keep the door closed and sniffing at people who might like to do 3'3" (and really, what skin is it off your nose? the 3'3" division is not MANDATORY you do not have to do it if you do not want to)

or
you don't have a prayer of doing the A/Os regularly and I really for the life of me can't figure out what your problem is.

[Nickelodian]

I don't strongly oppose it, however I guess I didn't see a strong need for it either. My only concern is that it will further dilute the often poorly attended A/Os in my area.

[Smiles]

I don't strongly oppose it, however I guess I didn't see a strong need for it either. My only concern is that it will further dilute the often poorly attended A/Os in my area.

Thats my fear too. Plus have no problem showing in the 3.6ft and if that doesn't fill I don't really want to show in the 3.3ft because the points won't count towards the real a/o. I personaly feel it should be open up to amatuer adults also.

[Biscotti]

Are you kidding? This is a dream come true for me and my trainer. I think we both have nightmares about emotional breakdowns at the ingate when we move from 3' to 3'6", and my horse is going to get amateur show millage at 3'3".

Thats my fear too. Plus have no problem showing in the 3.6ft and if that doesn't fill I don't really want to show in the 3.3ft because the points won't count towards the real a/o. I personaly feel it should be open up to amatuer adults also.

I'm glad the points don't count towards the real A/Os, because that way the super-competitive 3'6" riders won't really want to cross-enter into a class that, IMO, is intended for riders moving up with hopes of pinning. I think an A/O class is harder than a pro class any day in our zone.

But I think it should be an A/A class as well, I wonder what the reasoning behind them making it an A/O was.

[findeight]

I don't care one way or the other as I am semi retired with my old horse. Think I did 3 at home and 1 away show this year (and had more fun then ever).

But...I think the Ammie community would have been better served if this 3'3" went to the A/As and did not have the ownership requirement.

Around here the A/O's are light at most shows because of the large number of leased horses in the ring.

We got sidetracked a little arguing about any horse and any rider being able to do a 3'6" course.

The 3'3" is a good idea...the ownership requirement is not.

[Equino]

Thank you! It's not just the 3", like people have said, it's what comes with the 3", which further makes me think that these "oh, it's just 3 inches" folks are full of it, because someone who is experienced in jumping courses would know there is more to jumps than the vertical height.

My horse is a packer in the A/As, but he has never shown above the 3'3" in the pre-greens. I'd like to be able to have a stepping stone for BOTH of us before we try our hand in the A/Os: sure, my trainer can ride him in a 3'6" open class, but I would have to go from 3' to 3'6", and maybe it makes me a BAD RIDER, but I think the difference between these fences is huge:
3'6":
http://www.nhs.org/news/photos/adazzlingdisplaybyellentoonand.jpg
3':
http://www.snapdragonstables.com/images/kalliezones.jpg


My 1st post in this thead, but this post sums it up for me! My mare jumps the same at 3'6 as 3', but the courses are what scare me into staying at 3'! Less margin for error it seems. I would love to try the 3'3 division, or the 3'6 at the smaller shows.

O/T, but where did you find that picture of Odie? Lovely!

[Go Fish]

We've had this division in the area where I show for a long time. It's called "Modified Junior/Amateur Hunter" and ownership of the horse is not required. The division is provided as a stepping stone for riders who aspire to show in the Juniors or A/Os. It fills, but nothing like the Children's, AA's or even the short and long stirrup. In my observation of the class over the years, the juniors all move up to the 3'6" from this class, the AAs, not so much. Personally, in my opinion, it requires a far better horse to be competitive in the Juniors and A/Os than the lower divisions, not to mention a better rider. For many adults, life gets in the way and the amount of riding required to acurately ride a 3'6" course makes it difficult to achieve, not to mention the cost of the horse to get you there. Around here, we are extremely lucky to fill the A/O divisions and all ages are frequently combined just to get 5 horses in the class.

[Whisper]

I wouldn't be ready for this division this year (or with the current horse I'm part-leasing). In the next couple of years, I'd hope to be ready for that height, but may or may not have my own horse. I agree with the other people who feel that adding it as an AA class would make more sense, and probably get more entries.

[HunterJumperLuv]

So, I havent really read MOST of what was said in the above responses, so forgive me if this has already been said, but.. I believe the addition of the 3'3 division in the A/O's didn't really have to do with the riders having problems with the height but more so for the A/O riders who are bringing along a baby horse. Correct me if I'm wrong BUT I believe As per USEF rules (Zone 1), you cannot show in the A/A's and the A/O's at the same show. (About 99% sure about that...) So.. if you have a solid 3'6 horse that you want to show as your division horse, there really isnt another division adults could do on there baby horse, so now the babies can do the 3'3 division since you can cross A/O's with different owner/horse combos. Therefore, this creates a place for owners whose horses just arent ready for the competitiveness or the height of the 3'6 A/O's to bring BOTH horses to a show, and not pick and choose which horse can go.

I think, when I had originally heard about this, they had wanted to make a 3ft A/O division, but this was awhile ago while this was all still talk.

I believe I heard this info at one of the Zone 1 info meeting things last year or the year before (before the rule was passed)

Sorry if its already been said!

(Also, sorry if its incoherent, BioStats Homework is warping my brain :D)

[Giddy-up]

Showing in the AAs & the AOs at the same show is going to vary from Zone to Zone depending on Zone rules for the AAs.

Some areas it's allowed, others it's not.

[isltime]

this is the best division the usef has come up with. it gives a horse who is green the ability to move up to the regular a/o's without all adult amateur 's getting into a tizzy. i showed in this divion in sept at middleburg and it was packed.

[LetsRide]

Because another season of 3' doesn't help ;)


It's an awfully expensive endeavor to go in knowing you aren't likely at all to pin.


I'm not actually voting for one division or another, just saying there is a BIG difference between a 3' and a 3'6" course :) I probably tend to side with those who would prefer to see this go with the AAs. OR, do as also suggested - if there aren't enough 3'3" AOs to fill, or not enough 3'6" AOs to fill, combine the class but run it at the different heights.


Not a whole lot of people have the jumps at home to school a course of full (width, filler3'6" fences. Now, if people could school courses at home that were 3'9" and set on the scale (filler and width) of 3' courses, then a 3'6" show course might not be so daunting. But I'd bet most of those who are trying to make the jump to 3'6" either don't have the horse to do 3'9", or they themselves have no desire to :) But maybe that's just me :D

:confused: Why would anyone want to school a 3'9" course at home that was only set on the scale (filler/width) for a 3' course? That doesn't make sense to me for training to move up. The lines should be moved out for the 3'9" courses as should the spreads.

Curious, do you actively show in AA's or AO's at the USEF level yourself or?

Most people I know that are serious about training/showing at that level DO have a full course of practice jumps available to school at home. In addition as far as those with horses actively competing, they are rarely jumped at home, especially during show season. When they do jump for practice, it is often lower and smaller to 'save their horses' for the shows.

Personally, I think the 3'3" AO's is a great addition of a division, not only for green horses but for perhaps also for those horses that might have a little more age/mileage on them. Those veteran horses may not hold up so well physically to the possibility of taking care of many pilot 'jokes' at the 3'6" level. 'Bail outs' can be much more physically challenging/taxing on a horse at the 3'6" level compared to the 3'.

:)

[trv_at_tacf]

I am bumping this back up because there are two A's coming up at the end of the month at Worcester Stables/Our Farm offering the new A/O division and was wondering if anyone is going to do it!?!? Thanks.

[clearound]

Thank you! It's not just the 3", like people have said, it's what comes with the 3", which further makes me think that these "oh, it's just 3 inches" folks are full of it, because someone who is experienced in jumping courses would know there is more to jumps than the vertical height.

My horse is a packer in the A/As, but he has never shown above the 3'3" in the pre-greens. I'd like to be able to have a stepping stone for BOTH of us before we try our hand in the A/Os: sure, my trainer can ride him in a 3'6" open class, but I would have to go from 3' to 3'6", and maybe it makes me a BAD RIDER, but I think the difference between these fences is huge:
3'6":
http://www.nhs.org/news/photos/adazzlingdisplaybyellentoonand.jpg
3':
http://www.snapdragonstables.com/images/kalliezones.jpg

You can tell me that I am wrong but the 3ft 6 jump in not a zone final jump. It is from the National Horse Show (in FL) where the jumps are truly 3ft 6. The other picture is not from the NHS and doesn't even look like it is 3ft. Jumps at what I consider to be the bigger AA shows tend to be bigger as they generally are more substantial with flowers, shrubs and are not just you plain rail jumps with a flower box or two in front of them.

[Smiles]

I agree with Clearound the smaller jump is maybe 2.9ft if that. Thats not 3.0ft there is no way. And even the 3.6ft jump doesn't look that big either. So far the winter shows here have not added the division to the schedule. Maybe they will in the summer but as of right its not on the schedule.

[charlie13]

I think this division is GREAT!!!! Does anyone know if it will be offered at Cap Challenge, Harrisburg, and Washington this year or not till 2010???

[Molly99]

I think this division is GREAT!!!! Does anyone know if it will be offered at Cap Challenge, Harrisburg, and Washington this year or not till 2010???
Harrisburg will offer it in 2009. I can't imagine where in the schedule either WIHS or Capital Challenge could fit it.

[scheibyee]

why not have it an a/a class instead of a/o...it may fill better with just an a/a title insted of the rider having to own the horse...

I second this notion! I'm running into a problem b/c my trainer wants me to ride a 3'6 horse to get it out, going, seen and sold; however, there is no amateur class that i can show him above 3'. I could do the adequans I guess but that's a pro division. I want a division for Amateurs that can't afford beautiful a/o horses but have worked their arse off enough to be allowed to show someone else's horse or can lease one. Sorry for the vent haha I was frustrated with this topic today because now he's probably just going to have a junior show it.

[TaffyTowne]

I have to say that I am thrilled about the addition of the 3'3" A/O division :) I have shown my horse in both the AAs and the 3'6" A/Os. Although my horse is more then capable of jumping 3'6", I on the other hand can be weak and get jumped a bit out of the tack at 3'6". I also get very nervouse that I am going to get my horse to a bad distance, and given that he will jump from whereever I put him, I feel like asking him to jump from a bad spot at 3'6" is just a bit much to ask. I feel much more confident at the 3'3" height, and my horse jumps better when the fence is over 3'. I also like that the division is over two days, which gives you four over fences classes. Alot of times the AA's are just one day with two over fences classes.

[LH]

This division was very popular at WEF this winter! I am just starting a horse in the 3' division, after doing the 2'6" this winter, and she's too small for my trainer. I like knowing this division is out there, and I hope it gets more popular because it would be a nice transition after a couple of years at 3' to then slip into the 3'3" division. There aren't too many shows (if any) in Zone 5 that have the 3'3" adults.

Having ridden for years in the 3'6" A/Os, I will say that there is a tremendous difference between the 3' adults and 3'6" A/Os in terms of the fence WIDTH and the stride length needed to get down the lines -- it's not just the height of the jump that is different. I would think that the 3'3" division would be a good division in between the other two.

[snaffle635]

There aren't too many shows (if any) in Zone 5 that have the 3'3" adults.



Ledges is offering 3'3" Modified Amateur Adults this summer and Lamplight is offering a 3'3" AO division at the Spring Spectacular. Not sure about Equifest.

[LH]

Snaffle -- Good to know - we usually don't go that far west, but when it's time to do the 3'3" divisions (probably in 2011?), I will definitely keep that in mind! thanks.