Too close? Line breeding

[Rendaivu]

Would you consider a cross where the dams grandsire and the stallions sire are the same?

[gloriginger]

Nah...but then my mare's great great grandsire was bred to his own daughter...oh wait, that's inbreeding :)

[EquineLVR]

Yes but it would depend on who that sire was... there are some sires I would not want to line breed on - and there are others I would...

[Rendaivu]

Yes but it would depend on who that sire was... there are some sires I would not want to line breed on - and there are others I would...

Sire is Silvester by Silbersee.

[Fairview Horse Center]

When you double up on a horse that close, make sure there is nothing in that horse that you would like to see changed. My best cross is the same type linebreeding, but switch sire/dam.

Here are the results

[Thomas_1]

Some of the best horses I've ever had have been line bred with the same Grandsire both sides.

Likewise our best show dog (26 cc's) is also from the same line breeding. He's from the record producing champions in litter for Golden Retrievers.

When you're line breeding you have to bear in mind you're doubling up on everything so its imperative you're doubling up on excellence and that there's nothing (as in ZILCH) you wouldn't want to produce.

[hunt_jumpfl]

A bit different from the situation in question as I ride reining horses (AQHA), but...

We have two cow bred yearling fillies in my trainer's barn that are bred 2x3 to Smart Chic Olena. They both look like they are going to be great reining/cowhorse prospects and are definite improvements on their dams. Their sire is a very consistent producer anyways so it is hard to tell how much is the line breeding. One of the yearlings is also 3x4 Peppy San Badger so she should love working cows :)

[columbus]

When you are trying to set a type you can breed close. It isn't always done well but it is used to strengthen charecteristics you want to get in the offspring. It can also strengthen bad traits. It is important to understand more than just the visible traits as you are also possibly strengthening traits that are recessive and they will pop up in the offspring.

If you are interested in this horse as an individual then judge it as an individual. Worry first about what you see. If you like that horse then you can look into other horses carrying the linebred horse as the horse you are interested may present with those traits as well. For example if his offspring develop stifle problems then you 'may' have an increased chance of those traits...however each breeding is a unique mix and u may still have an excellent stifle coming through from a lone relative not linebred to and you are in luck. If you are breeding then a linebred mare or stallion 'might' have a better chance of passing a desirable trait or may be more predictable in their crosses because they are linebred.

On the other hand we bred two half siblings together(by the same stallion) and the offspring carried not one trait like the stallion. Instead she looked to be the clone of one of the grand dams who was of unknown QH breeding and she was very prepotent. She threw several clones of themselves and then her daughter had a matching clone grand daughter. They did not look like the mare but they looked like each other. Inbreeeding to the stallion made no difference at all. Perhaps it might of when that filly was bred but I would bet for another clone. PatO

[Kyzteke]

A bit different from the situation in question as I ride reining horses (AQHA), but...

We have two cow bred yearling fillies in my trainer's barn that are bred 2x3 to Smart Chic Olena. They both look like they are going to be great reining/cowhorse prospects and are definite improvements on their dams. Their sire is a very consistent producer anyways so it is hard to tell how much is the line breeding. One of the yearlings is also 3x4 Peppy San Badger so she should love working cows :)

The danger is recessive genetic conditions. Using Impressive more than once in a pedigree brought HYPP into the QH breed. Now there is HERDA, that horrible congentital condition where the skin splits.

And SIDS in Arabs.

These are the things linebreeding & inbreeding can create. But they can also create equine wonders, especially in the breeding shed.

This spring I am expecting a Rosenthal foal (Rubinstein) o/o my Rubino Bellissamo (Rubinstein) daughter. So the grandsire on the sire's side and the great grandsire on the dam's side will be the same. There is no alot to dislike about the R line for dressage, and Rosenthal "fit" my mare in terms of what I wanted to improve AND maintain. So I am hopeful for the results.

[mbv]

The danger is recessive genetic conditions. Using Impressive more than once in a pedigree brought HYPP into the QH breed. Now the is that horrible congentital condition where the skin splits.


Just had to throw in that HYPP is a dominant mutation, although some consider it to be an incomplete dominant because its effects can be magnified when you have a double dose (H/H horses). AQHA won't get rid of it until they stop registering N/H offspring.
HERDA is the skin thing...from Poco Bueno horses, but so many QHs go back to him (including Smart Chic Olena btw). It is recessive.

Still a very valid point about the risks of recessive problems popping up in linebred horses. The fluidity of the warmblood stud books is really helpful for infusing new genetic information, and helps prevent some of the problems that you see in breeds like Quarter Horses.

[pintopiaffe]

Two of my breeding mentors BOTH feel that grand-(daughter/son) to grand(mother/father) is a very useful breeding.

If I'm reading the OP correctly, this would be what you're talking about? No?

One of my mentors very, very successfully bred Genessee Valley Hunters for a lifetime, and was very early in the use of WB blood. The other breeds incredibly successful (and useful :p ) Arabs. I found it very interesting they BOTH use this grand-to-grand mating, CAREFULLY, but on a fairly regular basis. Both prefer it for the damline.

[Bellfleur]

I bred my Kalimera (Karon/Loretta) mare to Sinatra Song who is by Sandro Hit who is out of Loretta.

So the cross back is Grandmother and Great Grandmother.

Loretta produced 3 world class stallions. Sandro Hit, Diamond Hit and Royal Hit. I would love to have a mare to produce like she did. Although the daughter (Kalimera) is not far off the mark (producing 2 Official Verband Stallion prospects out of two colts born) I would have liked to have a daughter to carry on for her. What better than to attempt to consolidate the line around Loretta a bit.

If only I had been blessed with a filly!!! The colt she did produce was named an official stallion prospect (not that anyone in this country wants to buy a stallion prospect and raise them as such when they are bred in the USA!) and was named the top colt for Saturday and then also named overall top colt for both days at his Oldenburg Verband Inspection this summer so I think it was a good attempt. Her 2009 is the same cross and hoping against hope for that filly.

Video link to see the colt is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79DEOiX4apo

[Tango14]

For me it would depend completely on who the horses involved are. A good example of linebreeding at it best is JG Appaloosa sport horses. They would not have the superior quality of the horses they do without intensive line breeding.

[why not]

Sire is Silvester by Silbersee.

In that case I would not worry to much as it is understood and accepted over here that Fasolt is the sire of Silvester, not Silbersee.

[Dazednconfused]

The danger is recessive genetic conditions. Using Impressive more than once in a pedigree brought HYPP into the QH breed. Now the is that horrible congentital condition where the skin splits.

And SIDS in Arabs.

These are the things linebreeding & inbreeding can create. But they can also create equine wonders, especially in the breeding shed.

Linebreeding or inbreeding absolutely did not/does not create SCIDs foals. There is no one source horse for the gene as there is in HYPP. You could breed two completely unrelated horses that are SCID carriers and end up with a SCIDs foal, or two related horses that are carriers and end up with one. But linebreeding is absolutely not the cause of it.

[vineyridge]

According to the Paardfokken database, there is a 1978 model Holsteiner Silvester who is by Silbersee. :D

[StarDoozer]

Just as everyone's said, before you do a cross that is close, it has to be because there are qualities from the line you really want to reproduce.

We have a beautiful dutch mare- ster, #1 in the country as a 3-year-old, 16.3, outstanding mover... She herself is pretty hot, and two of her resulting five foals ended up being very much professionals horses... Also, three of five ended up being small (one only 16.1, the other two 15.2!), and although all nice movers, only one ended up being as good a mover as the mare herself... Whereas both of her sisters (out of Rowillie) have produced FEI horses, she has yet to do so...

We weren't going to breed her again as she is getting older (was 21 last year), but I convinced my mom to breed her one last time. She is out of the same mare as our stallion, Olivier- Rowillie, who was an EXCELLENT producer for us (in her lifetime she produced three Grand Prix dressage horses, many level 5+jumpers, broodmares, FEI dressage horses, etc. etc.)...

Long story short, I convinced my mom that there are so many qualities from Rowillie that we wanted to reproduce, we ended up breeding Olivier with the mare for her last foal.

Since Olivier has very consistently added height, movement and temperament (as well as lots of chrome and a beautiful head but that's just the icing on the cake!), we took a chance.

The resulting foal is stunning, sweet, HUGE, and a SUPER mover. And probably the friendliest foal we've ever had. I also think, true to her bloodlines, she would make an exceptional jumper, even though her sire is a "dressage" horse by trade.

http://www.imajica.net/diva1%20(2).JPG

Best of luck!

[RiddleMeThis]

Linebreeding or inbreeding absolutely did not/does not create SCIDs foals. There is no one source horse for the gene as there is in HYPP. You could breed two completely unrelated horses that are SCID carriers and end up with a SCIDs foal, or two related horses that are carriers and end up with one. But linebreeding is absolutely not the cause of it.Agree, and also wanted to say that line breed or inbreeding also did not CAUSE HYPP. You can get an NH without any line breeding or inbreed. Though to get HH there has to be some line/inbreeding SOMEWHERE even if it is not close up

[why not]

According to the Paardfokken database, there is a 1978 model Holsteiner Silvester who is by Silbersee. :D

That is the ´official´ version.

[Kyzteke]

Agree, and also wanted to say that line breed or inbreeding also did not CAUSE HYPP. You can get an NH without any line breeding or inbreed. Though to get HH there has to be some line/inbreeding SOMEWHERE even if it is not close up

No, I didn't say it CAUSED it. But linebreeding to a horse (Impressive) who was a known carrier introduced it into the breed in a big way.

Same with HERDA. My point is that these are the things about linebreeding that can bite you on the butt later.

However, it certainly can produce equine powerhouses, genetically. Horses like Raffles (Arab), Roberto (TB). I had a mare that was linebred to La Troienne (famous TB broodmare) and I SO wanted to breed her to a good racehorse. But no market here....so bred her to a WB.

[JWB]

Interesting thread...

I've been encouraged to breed my mare to her 3/4 brother. They share the same dam (a very nice TB mare) and the stallion is a Lemgo son, while my mare is sired by a different son of Lemgo.

Her 3/4 brother is a grand prix jumper. My mare is still young but very nice and appears to have a lot of jump.

I love the stallion! I found my mare while shopping for offspring of him and decided to jump on the chance to get his 3/4 sister instead. Just curious about the fact that the grand dam would be exactly the same on both sides and Lemgo would be grand sire on one side and great grand sire on the other.

[RiddleMeThis]

No, I didn't say it CAUSED it. But linebreeding to a horse (Impressive) who was a known carrier introduced it into the breed in a big way.Linebreeding didnt introduce it either. It would have been there even if Impressive was NEVER more than once in a pedigree. Did linebreed help people see it easier? Yes but it didnt cause or introduce it.

[shawneeAcres]

Linebreeding didnt introduce it either. It would have been there even if Impressive was NEVER more than once in a pedigree. Did linebreed help people see it easier? Yes but it didnt cause or introduce it.


Agreed on this point. However, I do wonder about Impressive, in that he is HEAVILY line bred to Three BArs. Could somehow that have contributed to him being the origin of HYPP? Just a thought, I don't think we know everything there is to know about genetics, and wonder if a mutation might not be mroe prevalent with intensive linebreeding.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Is it a mutation? or a gene that needs 2 copies to effect the horse? Did Impressive himself show any signs? My guess is that there were others having Three Bars multiple times in their pedigree? Nothing has ever shown up in any other horse, except direct Impressive.

[RiddleMeThis]

Is it a mutation?Yes or a gene that needs 2 copies to effect the horse? No, but those types are mutations as well. Did Impressive himself show any signs? I believe he did yes. My guess is that there were others having Three Bars multiple times in their pedigree?Yes Nothing has ever shown up in any other horse, except direct Impressive.Yes, and most likely had NOTHING to do with being linebred to Threebars. And also in answer to the post up above, no most (all?) genetic mutations dont have anything to do with linebreeding or inbreeding.