Questions about ulcers..

[jaimebaker]

So, I was reading another post on here last night about a highly aggressive horse that was treated for ulcers and suddenly became a different animal. I have a horse who is now 4 years old. When he was 11 months old, he went from sweet and kind to literally psychotic and trying to kill everyone. Had him gelded immediately and sent to a trainer. Well, it settled him a tiny bit but he's still horrid. He has a lot of anger issues. I always say 'he's got a lot of quit in him' because if he doesn't want to do something, he lashes out or just shuts down. His appetite is fine, coat is decent but sometimes not as shiny as everyone else's. I know nothing about ulcers. I did a little bit of research last night and some symptoms fit, some don't. This horse was bottlefed as a foal, so I've always just figured the aggression was coming from not having momma's discipline as a youngster. Horse is currently being ground worked but not ridden so no hard exercise or anything.

So my question is this, if I treat for ulcers and he does not have them, will it do any harm? Horse is out 24/7 with a mare. Gets 1 1/2 lbs. of ration balancer a day. I think I might be grasping for some sort of magic pill to fix this horses anger and aggression. Sometimes he'll just fall asleep being loved on, and then a minute later he pins ears, wrinkles nose and doesn't want to be touched (not sore spots, this can be anywhere on his body). Might not be anything wrong with him at all, but if it won't do any harm, I might certainly give it a try. If it won't do any harm, does anyone have recommendations brand or products wise?

[Lieslot]

I'd say try full tube Ulcerguard (=Gastroguard) daily for a minimum of 10 days and you'll have your answer. No difference in attitude, then I'd stop. Difference then do a full month treatment.
Any other treatments may not target the ulcer syndrome as directly as Ulcer/Gastroguard. It's a pricey trial, but if you're going to try something then you might as well go with a treatment that has proven to be effective vs anecdotal treatment, which will indeed be cheaper but give you a less certain answer.

It should not affect your horse adversely if he were not to have ulcers.
I have done this in the past too.

PS, I owned a very aggressive TB in the past too and sadly never found the magic cure. He was just wrongly wired I had to conclude.

[jaimebaker]

Thank you for the info! Since I posted I have been looking through all the ulcer threads I can find. This horse is actually the only hard keeper I have. Again, all of this I have said was due to his hard start in life, but now I'm really starting to wonder if he's been in some sort of pain the whole time I've been calling him every name in the book:lol:

[BarbeyGirl]

For the price of 10 days of UlcerGard (about $300), you could get your horse scoped and know for sure. ((Hugs)) I recently went through this with my horse -- not the aggression part, but the ulcers -- and it's no fun. :( I'm in the middle of a blog series (http://inthenightfarm.blogspot.com/2008/10/intro-gastric-ulcer-series.html) on the subject, if you're interested.

[Laurierace]

For the price of 10 days of UlcerGard (about $300), you could get your horse scoped and know for sure. ((Hugs)) I recently went through this with my horse -- not the aggression part, but the ulcers -- and it's no fun. :( I'm in the middle of a blog series (http://inthenightfarm.blogspot.com/2008/10/intro-gastric-ulcer-series.html) on the subject, if you're interested.

Right but if he does have ulcers she will already be $300 in the hole before she even starts the treatment. I never scope, I let the horse tell me if it works or not. It will not hurt anything other than your wallet to give him a trial of Gastroguard/ulcerguard. Do not use anything other than one of those two to get an answer. After that you can decide whether you want to try compounded omeprazole or some other med or stick with the good stuff.

[jaimebaker]

Right but if he does have ulcers she will already be $300 in the hole before she even starts the treatment. I never scope, I let the horse tell me if it works or not. It will not hurt anything other than your wallet to give him a trial of Gastroguard/ulcerguard. Do not use anything other than one of those two to get an answer. After that you can decide whether you want to try compounded omeprazole or some other med or stick with the good stuff.

That's kind of how I was looking at it. Though I totally agree, a scope would tell me for sure. Hmmmm....I know it's probably grasping at straws, but it's definitely something that's making me think twice about some of this horses issues. Then, if it does work/he is confirmed with ulcers by vet I will feel SOOOOOO guilty about not being educated enough to know the signs of ulcers. :(

[BarbeyGirl]

Right but if he does have ulcers she will already be $300 in the hole before she even starts the treatment. I never scope, I let the horse tell me if it works or not. It will not hurt anything other than your wallet to give him a trial of Gastroguard/ulcerguard. Do not use anything other than one of those two to get an answer. After that you can decide whether you want to try compounded omeprazole or some other med or stick with the good stuff.

That's true, too! I went through the same debate with myself. :no: I decided to scope partly because we were in the middle of our competition season and needed answers fast.

[jaimebaker]

That's true, too! I went through the same debate with myself. :no: I decided to scope partly because we were in the middle of our competition season and needed answers fast.

Since my guy isn't ridden I'm not in dire need, but I certainly don't want him to be in pain if this is in fact what's going on. It's REALLY effecting how training is going with him. He's ok at the walk and trot and then when he's asked to canter he gets VERY angry. Yesterday the trainer was up working with him and he was so mad at the canter he was trying to bite and attack the long line. Haven't seen him that mad in a long time.

I read your blog and am learning as I go. Gorgeous horses by the way:yes: I'm beyond broke right now since I just got feed and the farrier was just up. I'm debating maybe trying some Equitum to see if anything happens. Even if it's a small difference, that might be a cheaper way for diagnosis before moving to Gastroguard. Or should I just say to heck with it, save up the money and do the Ulcerguard to know for sure?

[Laurierace]

When attempting to diagnose ulcers via treating them and waiting to see if whatever signs you were seeing in the horse gets better or goes away I feel you have to use the real stuff. You probably don't need a whole week to get your answer though. You should see something in three to four days at the most. Sometimes you see changes within hours. If the horse improves to the point you feel pretty sure that you are on the right track then you can start playing around with alternatives. If you jump straight to the alternatives and see no change, you won't know if it is because the horse didn't have ulcers or if the stuff just didn't work.

[jaimebaker]

When attempting to diagnose ulcers via treating them and waiting to see if whatever signs you were seeing in the horse gets better or goes away I feel you have to use the real stuff. You probably don't need a whole week to get your answer though. You should see something in three to four days at the most. Sometimes you see changes within hours. If the horse improves to the point you feel pretty sure that you are on the right track then you can start playing around with alternatives. If you jump straight to the alternatives and see no change, you won't know if it is because the horse didn't have ulcers or if the stuff just didn't work.

Such a good point! You know, I have been on COTH for hours looking into this. I saw that someone used Pepto Bismol to see some sort of change. Now, I'm himming and hawing over trying that just to see if anything happens. I'd still like to try a few tubes of the Ulcergard/Gastrogard but until I get some money moving through just trying to think of something I could use and see if anything happens. But like you said, even if no change is noted he still might have ulcers. Won't know until I try the good stuff or get him scoped. Part of me wants him not to have them but a big part of me wants him to. That would explain so much. I really want to like this horse but he tries my patiences every day. He is becoming downright dangerous to be around so I've got to do something. I've got a trainer coming up and working with him, I'm working with him every day. He's just downright belligerent and nasty. He is learning and catches on quickly, but he's so mad about it sometimes I just feel like giving up.

[Lieslot]

Totally agree with Laurierace, if you're gonna treat, use Ulcer/Gastroguard.
It's the only proven.

And my initial 10 days might be a bit long, a few days of treatment should show you a difference.

Alternative treatments are to uncertain to give you an idea whether or the horse may have ulcers.

Good luck.

(I agree however, this stuff is damn expensive, I hope over the years it'll get cheaper)

[horse-loverz]

My guy had minor symptoms of ulcers (girthy resisting leg, lethargic, getting a bit pissy when pushed to do more) had him scoped and yup minor ulcers. I noticed a difference in the way he was moving after the first dose of ulcerguard, after 4 doses the girthyness is subsiding and he is much much happier under saddle. Mountian vet sells ulcerguard for $29 a tube if you buy 10 or more otherwise it is $32 a tube and shipping was reasonable, I think alilvet also has a reasonable price on the ulcerguard. So you may only need to try 4 or 5 days to see if you see any improvment at all. I would spend my money on what is proven to work first. :yes:

[jaimebaker]

Ok, so I think I will go the good route. But here's my question. I know they are the same thing but the dosing is different (one to prevent, one to cure/heal). I want the non prescription one (Ulcergard I think is the non script one). This horse is 800 lbs (very narrow, light built Arab). Is this stuff dosed by pounds where I could make it last longer than the average 1000lb horse or could I possibly do a half a tube of the Ulcergard a day as opposed to a full tube. If he's got them I'd like to do healing doses for sure but since I'm unfamiliar with the product just curious about the dosing on a smaller horse.

[PFMJ]

I had a horse that was the same way. When we kept this horse on 1/3 tube of GG a day, everything was fabulous, if not, girthy, spooky, hot, tendency to be a tad colicy. In the end, it was waaaaay expensive and there was not Suceed (which is a fabulous suppliment) or I would have used that and seen how that worked. Ultimately, I retired the horse, but the difference in on the GG and off was remarkable.

[horse-loverz]

For the treatment to cure you will need a full tube doses up to 1250lbs to get the 4mg/kg/day recommended to heal ulcers, for maitenence dosing of 1mg/kg/day you can go by wt which for your guy would be 1/4 of a tube of ulcerguard I belive. So you would still need to start off with a full tube at first then you can back down to just 1/4 tube daily. Here's (http://www.ulcergard.com/products/labelinfo.asp) some mait. dosing guide per Merial's website Hope that helps.

[KristiKGC]

Ok, so I think I will go the good route. But here's my question. I know they are the same thing but the dosing is different (one to prevent, one to cure/heal). I want the non prescription one (Ulcergard I think is the non script one). This horse is 800 lbs (very narrow, light built Arab). Is this stuff dosed by pounds where I could make it last longer than the average 1000lb horse or could I possibly do a half a tube of the Ulcergard a day as opposed to a full tube. If he's got them I'd like to do healing doses for sure but since I'm unfamiliar with the product just curious about the dosing on a smaller horse.


To do the initial test you should be able to just give 1/2 a tube to see some improvement. My ulcery boy is around 1400lbs. and I have never treated his ulcers (confirmed via scope) with a full tube. Granted, I do tend to find them early which probably helps, but even when he first got them as a 3 yr. old, and they were so bad he went off grain for almost a week, it didn't take a full tube to heal the ulcers. I would give 1/2 tube a day for 5-7 days and if you notice an improvement continue with either 1/2 tube or a full tube for 3-4 weeks. I've been through more ulcer flare ups more than I care to remember in the last 3 years and have finally learned what heals the ulcers without completely emptying my wallet.

[TheOrangeOne]

Maybe you were reading about mine. He's a punk, he always will be, but fixing his stomach took him back down from really homicidal to his baseline of "man, that one is kind of a jerk!". Then training and such was able to take hold. With mine, it was bad enough that there was either something wrong or I was getting rid of him. Just couldn't do it anymore. So scoping was a good plan, I really needed to know. I suggest it if you're in a similar bind. Good luck!

[FolsomBlues]

When you have some time, read this website (http://www.lunatunesfreestyles.com/ulcers.htm). I use just about everything she recommends and the difference in my horse was night and day. I did not have him scoped and I did not spend $300 on Gastroguard. I bought a $7 bottle of Mylanta and gave him 100 cc's right before I took him cross country. The difference was incredible. Usually he is jittery and pulls and jigs all over. During that ride, he was so mellow and would hang out on a loose rein in between fences. I know you said you're not riding him right now, so I'm not sure what the equivalent "Mylanta Test" would be. But you can get a few weeks worth of generic Omeprazole at this website (http://www.ponymeds.com/) for a LOT cheaper than Gastroguard, and it is the exact same stuff. I'm all about getting the best for my horse, but I'm not going to pay extra just for a name. Good luck with everything, let us know how it turns out!

[KristiKGC]

But you can get a few weeks worth of generic Omeprazole at this website (http://www.ponymeds.com/) for a LOT cheaper than Gastroguard, and it is the exact same stuff. I'm all about getting the best for my horse, but I'm not going to pay extra just for a name.

If you feel that it is working for your horse thats great, but it is NOT the exact same stuff. UlcerGard/GG are formulated specifically for the horse's GI system. Generic/human versions are NOT and therefore are not (as) effective as they are absorbed differently.

[UNCeventer]

I've been trying to decide if my guy has ulcers and where to start with finding out if he has them. I do not have the money to scope him. Thank you for all the info and the links.

[jaimebaker]

I DID check out the ponymeds site just from reading other ulcer threads on here. I read both the pros and the cons in those threads. Even as broke as I am I think I will at least try the ulcergard for my 'diagnosis' part of it. If I see a difference I want it to be a difference, not just him possibly having a good day. I work with this horse pretty much 5 days a week and his good days are few and far between. So, I'm hoping, even with just the groundwork I will see some attitude change. I am going to go pick up some Pepto bismal tomorrow though just to give him a dose on Friday before I work with him and see what happens. Even if nothing happens I'm still going to get the Ulcergard to be sure.

I'm still doing a lot of reading though so I might eventually go through the ponymeds site.


And WHOA!!! Folsumblues, I JUST went to the site you linked (thank you so much for that) and noticed something on there I hadn't seen mentioned before. She mentions the horse having problems 'going to the right'. This gelding has BIG problems going to the right. Not only does he just about come in on top of you but he kicks out and if you push him he'll just turn around and rear. What is it about going to the right though that has to do with ulcers (I'm telling you, I'm clueless!)???

[Oldenburg Mom]

When you have some time, read this website (http://www.lunatunesfreestyles.com/ulcers.htm).

Couldn't agree more. Great site packed full of information. I even wrote to her and was surprised to get a return email within 24 hours. Personally, I use a product called GI Thrive.

[hollyhorse2000]

I recently did an experiment with Ulcergard mostly to cure extreme girthiness. I made up my own schedule -- something like one full tube for two days, half of tube for four more days and then 1/4 of a tube after that. I saw a fairly dramatic weight gain in two weeks and some reduction in girthiness. I'm continuing to give the 1/4 tube a day and now experimenting with dosing every other day. I did not scope. I'd rather spend the money on treatment. If I hadn't seen any change in about a week, I might have discontinued the experiment, but that wasn't the case.

And from what all I've read, as much as I'd like the less expensive meds to work, I'm not convinced they will and I'd rather spend a bit more and be sure I've got something that's working.

[jaimebaker]

I saw no change in my very hot/spooky/over-reactive horse for at least 14 days. And really, it was a solid 3 weeks before she was truly back to her old easy going self again.

www.hphoofcare.com/ulcers.html (http://www.hphoofcare.com/ulcers.html)

Just checked out your webpage (still reading) and I see a common denominator at least. Both Padron bred Arabs:lol: At least, I'm guessing on yours based on her name.