Scratches! I am confused!

[FlyingPlum]

I have just finished reading the old threads on scratches and I am confused. There seem to be many schools of thought on the subject. I need help and advice to act on, so I am posting my specific situation. I have 3 horses at home on 24/7 grass turnout. The weather is changing so soon they will be stalled at night on pellet bedding. The horses are related, true black broodmare, all black legs, 4yr old daughter grey 3 white socks, 2 yr old full sibling black 3 white socks. No grain, and all fatter than I would like to see (but winter is coming :lol: ) The grey had scratches last year, vet said scrub scabs and try desitin, she was not at all concerned, I had mixed results with this but could have been more diligent. An experienced horse friend said to leave it to the immune system, leave it alone and it would go away, and it did. This year same mare has scratches, I assume from wet morning pastures, now her brother has it, have tried several anti-fungal sprays, some say to remove scabs, after scab removal I just ended up with swolen legs. The puffy legs (asume from mild infection) are worse if horses are in stalls overnight. but no problem if moving around and on clean pasture.

I plan to begin a suppliment program for 'easy keepers' after reading past threads on the subject. Can anyone recommend a regime for treatment of the area that actually works without causing infection? Soaking the 4yr old's front leg is not a problem but soaking the back leg of the active 'terrible' 2yr old is not so easy :lol:

p.s. tried to download the spell checker to no avail. pls pardon any errors :D

Margaret

[Eventer55]

Most will agree if you are not diligent as you put it your results can be less than desireable. IMHO the best method and I dealt with them in Competetive Trail is to scrub the scabs with surgical scrub, dry thoroughly and apply desitin or preperation H. Prep H is very effective for a number of reasons. You need to keep the area covered with ointment until the problem goes away,

I keep all my horses fetlocks shaved down all year long and this helps keep the area dry. If left untreated they can spread to the belly and then you will be dealing with antibiotics. A mild case can resove itseslf, but not usually. Hope this helps:)


Also, why are you soaking the legs, water is the enemy?

[kahjul]

I have found clipping and water to be the enemy. I don't clip the legs (unless I HAVE to for a show and this time of year I don't clip as close) and don't wet them any more than necessary. If I do have to wet the legs, I towel dry. As soon as you start to see any signs (like before now :)) start drying them and applying the desitin/prep H/triple anti oint/whatever product you are going to use. Dry and apply as often as you can, 2 or 3 times a day won't hurt. I don't pick scabs. This method stops them within a week. I also prefer a mixture of desitin and triple anti oint. Scratches is different for each horse, so keep in mind that what works for 1 may not work for another-thats why there are so many opinions and options.

[Melissa.Hare.Jones]

A friend's mare, bay with lots of chrome, struggled with scratches and a lightly-blistered muzzle at certain times of the year (usually late summer and fall) before the source was finally pinned to a systemic reaction to eating a certain clover (something to do with the liver filter process). Sun exposure sets off a chain reaction that results in something that closely resembles the "normal" scratches that cause scabbing and swelling. Getting her off the affected pasture was the solution. Since only your white-marked horses are having a problem, it might be something to look into if you have clover in your fields.

IME, "true" scratches have always responded well to keeping the area clipped for ease of cleaning/drying, gentle removal of scabs (no irritating Betadyne or soaking), and a coating of Desitin, which is a moisture barrier (other ointments can actually hold moisture close to the skin and make matters worse).

[monalisa]

I have struggled with scratches for years with my sensitive skin chestnut mare who has 4 white socks.

Here is what works for me (I tried EVERYTHING):

Keep the areas infected dry. Water and moisture are not your friend. If they stand around in water all day and the legs stay wet, you will never get rid of it.

I clip the infected areas. You cannot get down to the skin, where the root cause starts, with loads of hair.

Pick off the scabs and then wash with Betadyne. Scrub the areas, wash off and then completely dry with a towel.

Mix this together in equal parts: Furacin, DMSO, and Panacur wormer. These can be bought at a local tack store. Keep a mixture prepared in a jar or something. Use rubber gloves. Apply this mixture (not real heavy but just enough to coat the entire area affected). Leave it on. Do not rinse it off. Do this for 4-5 days in row and your scratches will be gone.

This has worked on every horse I have tried it on. Do not spend time on other "scratches remedies" as they do not work. Good luck!

[Underdog]

mix up the following ingredients....

triple antibiotic cream
lotramin AF (anti fungal)
desatin
cortisone topical cream

mix together and spread on affected areas. you'll have to re-apply a few times for a few days. The scabs will fall off easily...I'd let them come off with brushing.
Water may be the enemy....but the true way to fight them permanently is from within. It's normal to subject horses to a wet environment. They live outside afterall.

Immune system is compromised. To see longterm results....
I mix an herbal solution made of various herbs to make a tincture that I top dress a small amt over feed. Cures rainrot, scratches....even kills plantar warts on my childrens feet.

Certain herbs support the liver and kidney.
Thats where the true problem is. Research pays off. Good luck.
;-)

[merrygoround]

Underdogs OTC combo should work.. However I've found it more effective to mix about 4oz. of chlorhexadine (Nolvasan) 4oz of desitin, and 10cc. of Dexamethazone. Apply liberally, daily. The scabs will soften and slide off after a day or two. Continue treatment though until the area is clear.

Then keep those legs dry. We usually have problems here when grass gets high in spring.

[Auventera Two]

I've been fighting this for several months on my Arab's only white leg. Complete with massive swlling - up past the hock - and pain.

Diligence is key, I agree.

What works the best for me is Panalog ointment. You have to get it from the vet. It contains a sterroid, and is also antifungal, and antibacterial.

I soak the leg in very warm very strong Epsom salt water for about 30 minutes. This loosens all the scabs up so you can easily pick them off. I dry the leg really good with paper towels, then apply Panalog to a gauze pad, then wrap with a quilt and polo.

The next day the remaining scabs will come off with the dressing because they are so soft.

If you leave the leg open to the air, keep it DRY. I use Gold Bond Powder. You can't use an ointment or cream if you leave it open because the dirt will stick to it and create all new scabs and irritation.

Hers was so bad it covered about 1/4 of her coronary band, and extended up to the fetlock. I had it about 99% healed, but was not diligent on that last 1% or so (just one little spot with a scab left) and within a few days, it was back in full force, this time consuming the entire back of her pastern and heel bulbs.

Using the same treatment protocol, I have it cleared up again and this time I have to stay diligent about treating it again if I see only a tiny little spot flare up again.

I agree that it's a systemic problem. Something else going on inside the body. Mine had NOTHING to do with moisture, wet grass, etc. There isn't a drop of mud or moisture for miles here. They are locked off from the pastures that have grass. The remaining 4 acres of so where they are is mostly dry sand. Weeds and what little grass there is has been mowed very short. Her legs are never wet. So I think moisture can be the reason in some cases but not in all cases.

[BornToRide]

I still believe this is mostly related to a compromised immune system for some reason, or perhaps the horse is missing certain minerals in the diet that would make the skin more resillient against such pathogens.

My horse got scratches when I first moved him over here. All the other horses in the same environment had no problems. Once I boosted his immune system (I used flax seed at tha time and vitamins and minerals) he never had that problem again. It has also kept the sarcoid in check that he had back then.

I think someone used Ichtamol on the scabs, wrapped it and the next day the scabs just all fell off. Then treated it with Desitin I believe.

[findeight]

Many opinions because "scratches" is not a specific disease but a name for a number of fungal, bacterial or combination of both issues that case the bumps. Different things work on different cases, sometimes antibacterial scubs like Betadine clear it right up. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes antifungals do it, sometimes not. Mixing usually works but not always. Bad cases can require meds internally.

It can cause the stocking up behind OP mentions but it may just be related to being stalled, IME the swelling caused by this crud does not go down much even with excercise.

I have better luck keeping mine clipped. I start with the Iodine scrub and do not pick the scabs. If that does not work I use M-T-G. If that does not work or I have excessive heat and swelling, we do the oral SMZs.

Usually never need more then the Iodine and M-T-G. Clean environment and keeping it dry helps. Not so much trouble with it since I don't haul to away shows and stable there so often.

[FlyingPlum]

Thank-you to everyone that has posted! I am goin out to get the ingredients for the ointment mixes, I have dexamethasone, how does it work on scratches? Had it on hand for a horse that broke out in hives from time to time. It is injectible form, does it work topically?

Can't thank everyone enough for the suggestions! Will beat this once and for all! :yes:

Margaret P

[BornToRide]

I would only ever use Cortisone on an animal if I really had to, because of its side effects.

[Seven]

mix up the following ingredients....

triple antibiotic cream
lotramin AF (anti fungal)
desatin
cortisone topical cream

mix together and spread on affected areas. you'll have to re-apply a few times for a few days. The scabs will fall off easily...I'd let them come off with brushing.


I had an immuno-compromised horse with 4 white socks who used to get scratches all around during certain seasons. I used the above OTC recipe and it works easily. I always applied very liberally so he could still enjoy his turnout time. We were already doing things to treat him from the inside, so this little bit of extra help was all he needed to not suffer.

[blondmane]

Underdog - what herbs did you use in the feed?

[pintopiaffe]

:sigh: If you've read old threads, you know I'm going to pop up and say that those topicals witches brews *can* do more harm than good if you don't know what you're dealing with.

The *vet recommended* furacin combo almost killed my horse. :uhoh:

All the topicals in the world aren't going to help if it's something internal.

You'll actually save a lot of time and money if you get the vet out and find out what you're dealing with. I've pretty much said the rest (get rid of alfalfa, possibly soy) in other threads i'm sure you've read. RD Lite's advice is excellent always.

[Appassionato]

:sigh: If you've read old threads, you know I'm going to pop up and say that those topicals witches brews *can* do more harm than good if you don't know what you're dealing with.

The *vet recommended* furacin combo almost killed my horse. :uhoh:

All the topicals in the world aren't going to help if it's something internal.

You'll actually save a lot of time and money if you get the vet out and find out what you're dealing with. I've pretty much said the rest (get rid of alfalfa, possibly soy) in other threads i'm sure you've read. RD Lite's advice is excellent always.

Ditto. Get to the bottom of why/how the horse is getting infected, then treat. ;)

[findeight]

I have dexamethasone, how does it work on scratches? Had it on hand for a horse that broke out in hives from time to time. It is injectible form, does it work topically?


Dex doesn't work. Not an allegic reaction so does nothing-least when we tried it-and it is injectable only far as I know.

What works depends on what you have, fungal, bacterial or both.

Advise starting slow with the scrub then moving to the anti fungal. Vets have a shampoo available that you leave on 20 minutes, works well on some of them.

Like thrush on a recent thread, watch out you don't over treat this stuff. You can get them even more sore by picking too much. Give whatever you use time to work. I do think a clean stall and keeping it dry helps too.

[Kementari]

mix up the following ingredients....

triple antibiotic cream
lotramin AF (anti fungal)
desatin
cortisone topical cream


This is what I use for mild outbreaks (though I use generic Monostat instead of Lotramin - and hydrocortisone cream, but I'm sure that's what you meant! ;)). First, I wash with apricot sulphur shampoo that I get from the vet - I think you can get it OTC, but I don't know where - when they first appear, and then any time the area gets too dirty to treat. After that, I put on the above concoction at least once daily until they go away.

I have never heard any contraindication to OTC-strength hydrocortisone ointment for horses. (As opposed to internally-administered Rx corticosteroids, which I would certainly be careful about!)

To clip or not to clip seems to be an individual thing: when my TB gets scratches, I clip, wash, spray on some Muck Itch for a couple of days, and he's good to go. If I don't clip, they don't go away, no matter what else I do. When my Arab gets 'em, clipping just makes it worse, and she needs to be treated aggressively until they are gone or I'll be looking at a LOT of vet bills. If I start treating her and don't notice improvement in the first couple of days, she also goes on SMZs immediately. After learning the hard way with her that scratches should be taken seriously, I've done the above and have not (knock on wood) had to call the vet out again for them. (Since said vet knows the problem - and that when I use antibiotics I do so properly - she doesn't have a problem giving me SMZs to keep on hand to treat the scratches if need be without having to call her out.)

I wouldn't panic about a mild case of scratches (and I've got 100s of dollars in vet bills to prove that I KNOW scratches can be anything BUT mild!). If it's just a few scabs, and shows improvement within a week with OTC treatments, I don't see a need to have a vet out doing scrapings and all that fuss. Honestly, I dealt with scratches in some way, shape, or form fairly regularly for 12 or 13 years (yeah, lucky me has always lived in places with, um, robust mud seasons...) and never once had to even think that I might need a vet's help. Most cases go away quickly and easily with a little TLC (though it DOES need to be CONSISTENT until the infection is GONE!). If it ISN'T going away, though, don't just figure it will eventually: call the vet! Believe me, it's worth it. :yes:

ETA: If there is swelling, dex will bring down the swelling (thus making the horse more comfortable and hopefully preventing further damage from said swelling). (Been there, done that...) It won't have any effect on the underlying issue (bacteria or fungus), though, so you still have to treat THAT. Otherwise, as soon as you stop the dex, the swelling will be right back.

[SquishTheBunny]

My horse has CHRONIC, and I mean 3 year chronic scratches. Tried every cream out there, with different antibiotics/steroid combos and he becomes resistent.

Had it in all 4 legs. When it gets bad, he goes on SMZ's and it actally does help clear the little spots up.

He lives in leg wraps 24/7, they come off to ride. Ulimately, the leg wraps are the only thing that keeps the scratches at bay.

[Dallasgreenie]

I soaked the scabs off with warm water and oatmeal shampoo so the scabs just slid off.

Then, I dried the legs and I used hydogen peroxide. Dry again completely! Then I sprayed Tinactin athlete foot spray powder all over and made my horse look like he had four white socks.

Cleared up in a few days!

I think you should keep the legs as dry as possible!

[Samantha37]

You definitely can't do nothing- they only get worse and the legs will blow up if they get too bad.
Clip the infected areas, scrub with betadine thoroughly, dry- and my vet gave me Quadritop this year for my horse and it has worked really well, but I know furazone/DMSO/dexamethazone works extremely well also. If they get too bad, like someone else said- they may need to go on SMZs.
You should probably talk to your vet and find out what topical they recommend, but definitely keeping the problem areas clean and dry is key.

[Blinkers On]

Water IS the enemy! Keep them dry as much as possible! Use towels to dry them off after bathing or hosing legs.
I have nothing but success with a mix of Desitin and Panalog ointments. Placed on sheet cotton or a maxi pad and vet wrapped to cover the affected area. Leave that on over night. Or until you ride or change it (max 20 hours). You can try the anti fungals like the yeast infection meds topically. When riding keep it moist with ointment. Desitin, vaseline work well. The moisture from the ointments helps keep the scratches from cracking and bleeding. Which hurts, alot.
I don't and won't pick the scabs. We don't wash with betadine or castille soap. The chances of most people rinsing the leg thoroughly or drying it thoroughly are less than one might think. And residue will cause further irritation.
I have never seen this "recipe" fail. I've had horses sent to me and people say they are chronic and don't worry about them. I always send them back without the scratches.
Consitency is key, as is keeping water off of the scratches.

[FlyingPlum]

Thank-you again everyone for the methods! If the first one I am trying does not work I now have a plan B. The suppliments won't be here for 3 days Ugggghhh! But started the combo antifungal, antibiotic, hydrocortisone, and desitin cream. Did not soak scabs off first. Wonder if this was a mistake? Hoping they will soften by tomorrow and begin to fall off. Maybe this is wishful thinking. Please keep your experiences coming!

Has anyone had scratches once without them coming back?

[drifter05]

I've been battling scratches on my mare for about a month. She is Insulin Resistent thus compromised immune system that I am reading about on this thread. Hers are only minimal right above her heel so not as bad as some horses get it.

I've been soaking with an iodine scrub..leave on for 15 minutes...then pick off scabs. Rinse and dry area thoroughly with a towel. Then apply desitin and triple antibiotic cream. This seems to work. But I am repeating it a couple times a week. It is helping though.

[robbiegirl]

A few years ago my mare had scratches. Not a terrible case of it but she was always slightly stocked up. It was the middle of the winter, freezing, and I wanted something simple and easy to apply. My vet gave me a tube of Quadritops and after a few days it cleared up. I didn't clip, scrub or do much to the affected areas besides clean the back of her pasterns off with a brush. I was very impressed with the product.

[Blinkers On]

Has anyone had scratches once without them coming back?

Yes.

[nhwr]

Head 'n Shoulders shampoo whenever you wash the legs.

Magic Goo Sweat:

DMSO gel
Triple anti-biotic
1 packet of Azium (or Dex)
Desitin

Mix ingredients together, Apply to effected legs with a sweat wrap. Easy cases-gone overnight. Tough cases take 2 applications.

Nutrition support-flax never hurts :yes:

[CurlyLindsay]

Soaking the 4yr old's front leg is not a problem but soaking the back leg of the active 'terrible' 2yr old is not so easy :lol:



You have my sympathy! I had a 3 month old foal get it on all four legs earlier this year. :eek:

I tried all the COTH recipes and recommendations and it just kept spreading by the hour, I swear. What finally made a difference was AgSilver (similar product available for people called SilvaSorb for about the same price) we saw a reduction in inflammation in a few hours hours, and healing skin within 48. - Being so young, there was no washing or scrubbing, I just did treatments over the scabs and that did work, although it took the vet sedating her and scrubbing all the scabs off to beat it 100% (although, I had more than a few people tell me it was the worst case they'd ever seen (http://www.curlyfarm.com/photos/scratches/20.jpg) :eek: )

As followup to keep it from coming back I spray or wipe her legs with Muck Itch (an antifungal and antibacterial) every 2 or 3 days.

[FlyingPlum]

Wow that pic said it all! Unbelievable that it turned around in 48 hours! Thats fantastic news! What were your pasture conditions that time of year? Did any of your other horses get it?

[draftgirl01]

I make a mixture of Destin and one or two crushed SMZs and use that. I also use Keratex Mud Shield during the wet season on my mares legs, it creates a water barrier to keep the legs dry. http://www.keratex.net/mud_shield_powder.htm

[trubandloki]

Has anyone had scratches once without them coming back?

I agree with blinkers on. I too have dealt with a truly nasty case of scratches that once gone has not come back.



Knock on wood.

[CurlyLindsay]

Wow that pic said it all! Unbelievable that it turned around in 48 hours! Thats fantastic news! What were your pasture conditions that time of year? Did any of your other horses get it?

Super muddy (following the tail end of the hurricanes that came through) and unusually heavy dew during the nights/mornings. None of the other horses came up with it- and I'd never had a problem with it before! I'm hoping it was just preying on her baby immune system and it will not come back. She did go through a round of penicillin (that was traumatic :yes:) and I'm planning on weaning her later than usual.

[Kementari]

You have my sympathy! I had a 3 month old foal get it on all four legs earlier this year. :eek:

I tried all the COTH recipes and recommendations and it just kept spreading by the hour, I swear. What finally made a difference was AgSilver (similar product available for people called SilvaSorb for about the same price) we saw a reduction in inflammation in a few hours hours, and healing skin within 48. - Being so young, there was no washing or scrubbing, I just did treatments over the scabs and that did work, although it took the vet sedating her and scrubbing all the scabs off to beat it 100% (although, I had more than a few people tell me it was the worst case they'd ever seen (http://www.curlyfarm.com/photos/scratches/20.jpg) :eek: )

As followup to keep it from coming back I spray or wipe her legs with Muck Itch (an antifungal and antibacterial) every 2 or 3 days.

I'm sorry to report that my girl had it that bad as a 2 y/o! She has three white socks, and lost most of the hair on all three of them (she also had a bit on her one chestnut leg, but it wasn't nearly as bad - the vet thinks that the sensitivity of the pink skin to sunlight had something to do with it), as well as being badly stocked up all around. She first showed signs in April, I had the vet out for the first time in May, and we didn't get it cleared up until August. She was on antibiotics from June on. :eek:

Unfortunately, I don't have pics... Each new thing we tried helped a little, but honestly I think the only thing that really turned it around was prolonged dry weather (it was a VERY wet summer that year, and lots of horses in the area had nasty scratches) - in combo, of course, with the treatments. By the end, she didn't want anyone NEAR her legs. We had to sedate her just for simple vet checks. (This was a filly who was already sensitive about her legs - it took me literally until this year (she's 5 now) to get her calm about having her legs brushed/washed/clipped again!)

Now, the first sign of scratches on her and I jump on it! Those white legs (at least on her) are definitely more susceptible, but - knock on wood - by treating aggressively from the beginning, I've kept her from every getting close to needing a vet (for scratches... ;)) again.

[Perfect Pony]

All I can say is all these poor, unfortunate horses, I literally weep for every one of them that you torture for months and years with your clipping and scrubbing and with your concoctions. :no:

[Kementari]

All I can say is all these poor, unfortunate horses, I literally weep for every one of them that you torture for months and years with your clipping and scrubbing and with your concoctions. :no:

So, what, I should ignore my well-respected vet's advice? Advice, I might add, that worked better ultimately than any random stranger on the internet ever managed to?

[FlyingPlum]

I make a mixture of Destin and one or two crushed SMZs and use that. I also use Keratex Mud Shield during the wet season on my mares legs, it creates a water barrier to keep the legs dry. http://www.keratex.net/mud_shield_powder.htm

Do your drafts have 'feathers'? That powder looks like great stuff for the time of year that mud cannot be avoided.

[draftgirl01]

I actually have clipped down her feathers a bit and try to not have them terribly long, but the powder works great!!

[citydog]

All I can say is all these poor, unfortunate horses, I literally weep for every one of them that you torture for months and years with your clipping and scrubbing and with your concoctions. :no:

Yeah, better to humanely destroy anything with scratches. Rain rot, too. And dandruff, of course. < /sarcasm>

[CurlyLindsay]

All I can say is all these poor, unfortunate horses, I literally weep for every one of them that you torture for months and years with your clipping and scrubbing and with your concoctions. :no:

Um. Sure. So I should have left this (http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com/pictures/files/8/0/8/7/2_982655.jpg) untreated?

[FlyingPlum]

All I can say is all these poor, unfortunate horses, I literally weep for every one of them that you torture for months and years with your clipping and scrubbing and with your concoctions. :no:
We are trying to make our horses healthier and more comfortable. What would you do if your horse had scratches?

[Kementari]

I believe (to the best of my recollection) that Perfect Pony is of the opinion that scratches are solely the result of a compromised immune system, and that they "cure" is some combination of magic herbs and supplements.

I am sure that works for some. I am sure that that diagnosis is right for some.

I find that the idea that it is the ONLY solution to be short-sighted and reveal a lack of breadth of experience with the condition (which is actually several different conditions, but we've already covered that ;)).

[theoldgreymare]

I had a few here that had mild cases in late summer when the morning dew was very thick. I tried just about everything, including home made concoctions,and the thing that worked consistently well for me was to wash with Betadine, rinse, dry and slather with Nolvasan.

[Tornado Run Farm]

Have any of you tried using Excaliber or one of the other commercial sheath cleaners to remove the scabs? It has tea tree oil in it, which supposedly not only softens the scabs for easier removal, but also acts as a remedy for the scratches themselves. I read about this solution in one of the horse magazines, but haven't tried it yet. It seems like it would be less irritating than using a betadine scrub if its primary use is for a horse's sheath! Anyone?

[Perfect Pony]

I believe (to the best of my recollection) that Perfect Pony is of the opinion that scratches are solely the result of a compromised immune system, and that they "cure" is some combination of magic herbs and supplements.

I am sure that works for some. I am sure that that diagnosis is right for some.

I find that the idea that it is the ONLY solution to be short-sighted and reveal a lack of breadth of experience with the condition (which is actually several different conditions, but we've already covered that ;)).

No. Actually after I stupidly listened to all the BS on this very forum, I tortured my horse with all these treatments for weeks and ended up making everything much worse. I finally took my horse to one of the top equine dermatologists in the world and actually was educated on what "scratches" really was, and the proper ways to treat the various forms. No magic, no herbs, no supplements, just honest to God true correct diagnosis and treatments rater than listening to a bunch of people on the internet that don't have a clue what they are talking about with regards to any particular case posted on here.

Anyone with a chronic case of "scratches" that listens to the advice on here without guidance from a vet who actually knows about equine dermatology is doing a real disservice to their horse.

[R D Lite]

I believe (to the best of my recollection) that Perfect Pony is of the opinion that scratches are solely the result of a compromised immune system, and that they "cure" is some combination of magic herbs and supplements.


EDITED TO ADD: I see Perfect Pony beat me to it! (Hope you'll forgive me for putting words in your mouth, PePo.)

Perfect Pony's horse suffered from a severe case of leukocytoclastic vasculitis, an immune-mediated condition that is frequently misdiagnosed as common scratches. My own gelding, Reuben, also suffered from leukocytoclastic vasculitis and was euthanized after a year of intensive treatment due to a related chronic, progressive autoimmune disorder.

Neither Perfect Pony nor I believe that leukocytoclastic vasculitis is the only cause of scratches--lots and lots of horses do have plain 'ol "scratches"--but both of us found out the hard way that even excellent vets are not always aware of this cause of scratches; it's come to light fairly recently. There are a great number of causes of scratches, and not all of them are bacterial or fungal (or immune-mediated). Some of the standard scratches remedies so easily bandied about on this and other BBs can be detrimental to a horse whose symptoms are caused by non-bacterial or non-fungal causes. Continuing to treat a non-responsive case of scratches can, and often does, lead to a life-threatening case of cellulitis. (Incidentally, treatment for leukocytoclastic vasculitis involves therapy with corticosteroids--often in conjunction with pentoxifylline in severe cases--antibiotic therapy to treat secondary infections, and the protection of affected skin from UV rays.)

These scratches threads turn up time and time again, which is fine, since there's always someone out there dealing with this problem for the first time. However, for some reason we horse people treat our scratches remedies as something akin to the Holy Grail, and we all tend to think we're right! :) (That old two horsepeople, three opinions thing.) I do understand Perfect Pony's frustration to some extent, because it's tough when you've made mistakes yourself and you see other people potentially heading down the same path. I know that while in the end, there was nothing that could have saved my horse, if I had known more about the many potential causes of "scratches," I could have been more proactive, found a diagnosis for my horse more quickly, and saved him several months of sometimes-painful and always-counterproductive "treatments."

I will say, as briefly as I can, what I always say in these scratches threads: Realize that there are many causes of scratches, and not all of them are bacterial or fungal. Some of those causes can threaten a horse's life. It is possible for some traditional scratches remedies to exacerbate symptoms if a horse has a case of scratches not caused by bacteria or fungus. By all means, try a traditional remedy when your horse presents with scratches symptoms, but if that does not work after a reasonable period of time, contact your vet AND ASK FOR A BIOPSY. This is the ONLY way to obtain a definitive diagnosis.

I don't come on these threads to stroke my own ego or to claim that I am the One True Scratches Guru. I also don't claim to be able to diagnose anyone else's horse via cyberspace. I take the time to post because I wish I had known more when my horse and I were going through this, and I hope that our experience might spare another horse and owner unnecessary frustration and suffering. That's it.

[FancyAppy]

[QUOTE=findeight;3613001

I have better luck keeping mine clipped. I start with the Iodine scrub and do not pick the scabs. If that does not work I use M-T-G.
Usually never need more then the Iodine and M-T-G. [/QUOTE]

I agree. I use MTG .it is sulfur based and quite effective on scratches

[JER]

I've posted previously about very long, very vet-intensive experience with one of my horses and his swollen, weeping, easily-bruised, utterly puzzling, now-hairless leg. I did everything mentioned on this thread and more -- all sorts of medical tests, consultations with vets all over the US, Canada and Europe, etc.

This product is the reason he's still here today: Camrosa Ointment (http://www.camrosa.co.uk/).

I'd given up on everything else and saw their ad in a magazine. I consulted a few vets about the product, they all said it certainly couldn't harm the horse. The ointment-makers told me to use it for at least 2 months and said they weren't sure it would do anything but why not try. After about 3 months, the skin stopped weeping and cracking. After 6 months, the hair grew back -- something everybody assured me would not happen. The problem has not recurred again (it's 5 years later) not even when the horse is turned out daily in a wet field in the PNW.

So now, it's the first thing I'd reach for with a case of persistent 'scratches'.

(I'm an utterly unreligious person without a mystical bone in my body. I attend lectures of the Skeptic Society. I'm not into healers or energy treatments or reiki or even oral glucosamine for horses. But this stuff worked for my horse.)

[citydog]

I will say, as briefly as I can, what I always say in these scratches threads: Realize that there are many causes of scratches, and not all of them are bacterial or fungal. Some of those causes can threaten a horse's life. It is possible for some traditional scratches remedies to exacerbate symptoms if a horse has a case of scratches not caused by bacteria or fungus. By all means, try a traditional remedy when your horse presents with scratches symptoms, but if that does not work after a reasonable period of time, contact your vet AND ASK FOR A BIOPSY. This is the ONLY way to obtain a definitive diagnosis.

Thank you for sharing your story and advice. :yes: Good info and no doubt far more potentially helpful than cryptic weeping and hyperbole.

[Altamont Sport Horses]

I've never had a horse with severe scratches that extend up the leg or cause considerable swelling. It is mainly two or three horses with white feet that get them. I am able to get rid of the scratches easily and quickly. I do not wash or wet them. I gently pick off any dry scabs and spray full strength Chlorahexidine (Nolvasan) on them and then rub it in to get it down to the skin. If the scabs do not come off easily then I leave them. And then I use the commercially available product that Jeffers sells called Fungasol Cream. It is an ointment. I think the only significant ingredient in there is Tea Tree Oil but of course it is an ointment so it blocks out additional moisture. I usually only do the Chlorahexidine treatment once and then do the Fungasol treatment once a day. I don't clip or anything. It clears up really fast.

Has anyone ever used Emu Oil on scratches? It is supposed to be antibacterial (maybe anti-fungal) and has anti-inflammatory effects. And I imagine the oil would help maintain a moisture barrier as well. I have some and am considering trying it the next time we have a problem.

[Underdog]

I am glad you had succes with your horse whether through conventional medicine or otherwise. That is what's truly important in the end.

But I have had success with herbs. Period. it's no secret that they have been around long B4 pharmaceuticals.
I don't understand why ppl feel the need to knock or belittle other folks approaches to various treatments.
I am currently treating my 11 yo sons plantar wart using black walnut that I soaked in Vodka (alkaloids). That is the ONLY thing that is killing it!
My daughter went thru the same thing last year. Picked up plantar's wart on her feet (probably from school) and we tried the OTC conventional treatment, per the advice of my Primary physician. Conventional medicine. Took her to him...he tried to shave it down, then sent us to the store for Dr.Scholl;s.
We battled that huge puppy for 8 months using every Dr. Scholl product to no avail.

Then I remembered my herbal mix containing black walnut. *light bulb moment*. Only took 8 months to remember. :-)
I had her apply it by pressing a soaked Q-tip with the tincture, and holding it there for about 4 or 5 minutes. Basically until she couldn't stand the tingling sensation up into her foot anymore. It was killing the root of the wart.
2+ weeks and about 6-8 applications later....it turned completely black and peeled right off. Including the one on her thumb too.
We were amazed. You could see a little red bloody dot which was the rermaining root. Pretty gross as this thing was REALLY big.
Warts are a virus which can be treated externally as well as internally.

Black Walnut is just one of the herbs I use in a combination. As we all well know, black walnut is toxic in large amt's, but in small amt's is VERY beneficial. Black Walnut is a known parasite killer.
We cut down a black walnut tree in our back yard and hubby stacked the wood under my favorite Maple tree. Big mistake. That huge Maple was dead within 6 months.Thats how strong Black Walnut is.

So now I am treating my son's wart and it's already black and dying. It will be ready to peel off any day now.
I have also given a sample to a co worker for her labrador. He chews and itches and bites himself. He has huge weeping sores on his body. It's only been a week and a half, and they are now half the size and dried up. Some have fallen off. He is much more comfortable and happy so far.
She is trying to convince me to market this stuff.

Again, herbs have been around forever and used by Native Americans, The Chinese, etc.
I also use Milk THistle in my mixture....The Germans use it to treat ppl with bad livers. Recovering alcoholics, etc. Google it. Herbs are more excepted in Europe....and here in the US, we still only accept Western conventional medicine. That's slowly changing.
I used to be a nay sayer just like you.
I supplement my horses with my tincture and they are scratches free/rain rot free to this day.
There's a lady with a light appaloosa that had clumps of hair coming off her last fall. She had a serious reaction to either a plant in the pasture or something in the environment. She tried everything. I gave her a sample. Guess what. Still has a beautiful coat on her, and I just gave her another batch of it. She's convinced.
So far...it has helped a dozen horses with skin conditions, where I board mine at.

But again, the important thing is you found a cure for your horse and he is comfortable no matter what you used.

But I won't take digs at your Western voodoo. What's the point, really.
I'd rather share information in an attempt to help someone.

Best Wishes.

[trubandloki]

I will say, as briefly as I can, what I always say in these scratches threads: Realize that there are many causes of scratches, and not all of them are bacterial or fungal. Some of those causes can threaten a horse's life. It is possible for some traditional scratches remedies to exacerbate symptoms if a horse has a case of scratches not caused by bacteria or fungus. By all means, try a traditional remedy when your horse presents with scratches symptoms, but if that does not work after a reasonable period of time, contact your vet AND ASK FOR A BIOPSY. This is the ONLY way to obtain a definitive diagnosis.


I do not think anyone would disagree with this advice.

If it looks like scratches treat it like scratches. If the treatment does not work then call your vet and find out if it is something else.

I do not think anyone here that is suggesting a treatment is saying otherwise.

And thank you for making the point in a clear manner, unlike some people who seem to think making people feel guilty is far more important than making a clear point.

[FlyingPlum]

Thank-you R D Lite!

That was VERY informative. I did not know how serious non-responsive, chronic cases could be. It is just the type of knowledge I was hoping to get when I started this thread. My vet is not concerned, if it is non responsive, I will try another vet until I find one that is concerned. I appreciate you taking the time to post your experience and educate us, it must be painful to bring up again. thank-you.

[Kementari]

No. Actually after I stupidly listened to all the BS on this very forum, I tortured my horse with all these treatments for weeks and ended up making everything much worse. I finally took my horse to one of the top equine dermatologists in the world and actually was educated on what "scratches" really was, and the proper ways to treat the various forms. No magic, no herbs, no supplements, just honest to God true correct diagnosis and treatments rater than listening to a bunch of people on the internet that don't have a clue what they are talking about with regards to any particular case posted on here.

Anyone with a chronic case of "scratches" that listens to the advice on here without guidance from a vet who actually knows about equine dermatology is doing a real disservice to their horse.

My apologies! I must have you mixed up with someone else. :o

I certainly agree that chronic scratches cases need to see a vet. :yes: But I think what those of us who have dealt with the Scratches From Hell (as I refer to mine...) sometimes lose track of is that most scratches AREN'T chronic. I don't think there's anything wrong with treating a horse with a couple of scabs with OTC remedies for a bit - personally, I (now) give it a week to improve, and then bring the vet into the picture. (With the side note that if they somehow manage to get to like those in CurlyLindsay's pics before you start treating (not trying to imply that's what she did, just using those pics as an example!), then you should call the vet immediately - and look at your horse's legs more often...). 99% of the time, just the OTC treatments work. The other 1% of the time, well, show me a case of previously non-chronic scratches (of whatever sort) that's got from no symptoms to death's door in less than a week, and I'll think about calling the vet sooner! ;)

By the way, I do NOT pick scabs off - OUCH!! I always thought that advice sounded, um, unfortunate, and my vet concurs. The scabs come off as the area heals, just as nature intended them to. :yes:

[R D Lite]

I do not think anyone would disagree with this advice.

If it looks like scratches treat it like scratches. If the treatment does not work then call your vet and find out if it is something else.

I do not think anyone here that is suggesting a treatment is saying otherwise.


I don't think anyone would disagree with it, either, but as someone who started a thread similar to this one three years ago or so, I know that sometimes when you see post after post listing various remedies that "always" work, you can feel like you're just not trying hard enough if your own horse doesn't get better. It's easily to slip into the mentality of thinking that the next treatment is going to be the one that works, that you just need to persist another week, etc. I think vets can fall into that trap, too, not because they're bad vets, but because they see scratches, they have a gazillion more cases to deal with that day, and before either you or your vet have realized it, six months have gone by before one or both of you has that lightbulb "Hey, something really isn't right here" moment.

In hindsight, I can't believe I waited so long to get a biopsy on my horse, but at the time it seemed like I was doing everything right--the vet wasn't overly concerned, my experienced barn owner wasn't overly concerned, and I was a first-time horse owner who kept getting told, "Well, sometimes scratches can be really stubborn."

Yes, most horses DO have "ordinary" scratches, but even though some of the "other" kinds of scratches are less common, they have the potential to be so serious that I think it's worth making people aware of them. To folks who read every one of these threads (like me), I'm sure it can seem like those of us saying, "It's not always regular scratches" are saying, "It's never regular scratches." I can only speak for myself, but I know I don't believe that; I'm just hoping that folks out there who might be looking in their trusty horse owner vet handbook realize that there can be more to scratches than meets the eye--or the two paragraphs on the subject in the "skin disorders" chapter.

[BornToRide]

No magic, no herbs, no supplements, just honest to God true correct diagnosis and treatments rater than listening to a bunch of people on the internet that don't have a clue what they are talking about with regards to any particular case posted on here.

Anyone with a chronic case of "scratches" that listens to the advice on here without guidance from a vet who actually knows about equine dermatology is doing a real disservice to their horse. Funny - and you do? Interestingly my vet suggested the same treatment as many have suggested here as well. And of course, if something is not working, by all means , call the vet!!

Oh and please be aware that some vets also give crappy advise! I applaud people who also consult with other horse owners to learn more about a condition, so they can hopefully make the right decision for their horse. People have the ability to think through the information they receive. I'm sure that most are smarter than to just take what's written on forums as gospel.

[findeight]

Ummmm, like I posted several pages ago, there are many causes for this.

No need to condemn everybody because their horse does not have what PPs did.

Some of us routinely work with well regarded vets and the latest in diagnostics and have not spared any expense in getting a "true diagnosis". Which may have actually been one of the bacterial, fungal or both conditions lumped together as "scratches".

Interestingly, I never saw it out on the west coast or in Texas. Only when I moved to the New England area and then the midwest did I ever have one come up with it.

[Kementari]

Interestingly, I never saw it out on the west coast or in Texas. Only when I moved to the New England area and then the midwest did I ever have one come up with it.

We had it in many horses one particularly warm winter in the inland PNW - warm, but with the same amount of precipitation as normal=knee deep mud for six months! :eek:

But I will agree I never had it as badly/frequently as in New England!

[findeight]

I lived down south in Cal and in South Texas-not too much rain and not that humid.

Seems to be a biggie in what can be responsible for these symptoms.

[Perfect Pony]

Funny - and you do? Interestingly my vet suggested the same treatment as many have suggested here as well. And of course, if something is not working, by all means , call the vet!!

Yes actually. I found that most vets don't have a clue what they are talking about when it comes to skin conditions. Several of my locals vets had no idea, all "respected" local vets.

If you had a skin condition that would not go away, would you just scrub it and pick at it and slather it with anything and everything while your arm or leg got worse and worse and started to swell?

Think you might consult a dermatologist?

After my experience I now take any horse of mine to a specialist, just like I would treat myself. I know all too well now just how little even the best local vet actually knows when it comes to chronic conditions. Local vets have their place, just like general practitioners, but they have their limits.

And my frustration comes from the fact that a simple search in horse care brings up dozens of the same discussions, yet it just continues on and on.

I think people should educate themselves with regards to medical conditions by going to the source. Here's a good report on Equine Dermatology. Unfortunately my old horse is featured in it.
http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/ceh/pubs-hreport-24-1.htm
http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/ceh/pubs-HR24-1-bkm-sec.pdf

[trubandloki]

PP you are making it sound like everyone with the slightest hint of something that quacks like duck should not assume it is a duck.

There is nothing wrong with someone asking what others treat scratches with.

It is just out of whack to tell people that if they think their horse has a basic case of scratches to spend huge bucks and visit a specialist.

Treat for the obvious and move on if that treatment is not working in a timely manner.

And thanks to the clear and concise posts of RD Lite we now are filled in on other things it could be.

[CurlyLindsay]

I gently pick off any dry scabs and spray full strength Chlorahexidine (Nolvasan) on them and then rub it in to get it down to the skin.

Have any of you tried using Excaliber or one of the other commercial sheath cleaners to remove the scabs? It has tea tree oil in it, which supposedly not only softens the scabs for easier removal, but also acts as a remedy for the scratches themselves.

I have to recommend Muck Itch Spray (http://www.raraequus.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=21&idproduct=300) again. It's active ingredients include both Chlorahexidine and Tea Tree Oil, it's relatively cheap, and it's worked fantastic for me for preventative treatment. :)



(With the side note that if they somehow manage to get to like those in CurlyLindsay's pics before you start treating (not trying to imply that's what she did, just using those pics as an example!), then you should call the vet immediately - and look at your horse's legs more often...).

No offense taken, but do feel like I need to explain how she got in such a miserable state, now. *I* think (this is not a vet's opinion) whatever caused her scratches just took hold and thrived on her because she didn't have a fully developed immune system.

She went from normal, to covered in scabs all the way up four legs, on the hocks, and on the belly in a matter of a few days. I noticed it when it was just the heels of the two back legs and started treating it with some of these remedies, by the next morning it was climbing up her legs and she was swollen and lame so I had the vet look at her. Because she was so inflamed around the coronary band at that point, he recommended cold hosing, which helped the hoof but clearly didn't help the scratches, and the Chlorahexidine which at that point I think was just putting a bucket of water on a wildfire.

I was going crazy trying to research it myself and came across the recommendation to use Equifit's AgSilver, so I had some overnighted here. I am SOLD on that product. At $40 an ounce, slathering it on slick 2x a day, it was not cheap but it was the only thing that stopped the spread, and brought down inflammation. The results were dramatic.

Even though it the scratches were getting better the swelling on a foal was scaring me so I hauled her to an equine vet. (see below)



By the way, I do NOT pick scabs off - OUCH!! I always thought that advice sounded, um, unfortunate, and my vet concurs. The scabs come off as the area heals, just as nature intended them to. :yes:

The second vet to see my foal did sedate her and scrub the scabs off. Healing was so fast after that- because the medication could actually get to her skin instead of sitting on top of the scabs. I could never pick (even if I wanted to! She was 3 months old), but I think getting the scabs off in a safe, sterile, and medicated way really facilitated healing.

[Perfect Pony]

PP you are making it sound like everyone with the slightest hint of something that quacks like duck should not assume it is a duck.

There is nothing wrong with someone asking what others treat scratches with.

It is just out of whack to tell people that if they think their horse has a basic case of scratches to spend huge bucks and visit a specialist.

Treat for the obvious and move on if that treatment is not working in a timely manner.

And thanks to the clear and concise posts of RD Lite we now are filled in on other things it could be.

The posts that continuously show up are the "I've tried everything and now my hose is worse and swollen and hates me for picking at his scabs and slathering him with goop"

To those I answer, "Go see a vet who will properly diagnose and treat him".

But the same people keep posting their same magic remedies.

That's why I have come to see the Horse Care forum as a potentially dangerous place. And why I no longer listen to anything on here except people telling others with chronic conditions that they need to get their horse to a proper hospital.

[tarynls]

Agree with Underdog. That's the same mixture we use at the clinic I work at.

[JER]

But the same people keep posting their same magic remedies.

That's why I have come to see the Horse Care forum as a potentially dangerous place. And why I no longer listen to anything on here except people telling others with chronic conditions that they need to get their horse to a proper hospital.

Well, PP, the reason I post my 'magic remedy' is because I had exhausted my veterinary resources and then found something that worked. And my veterinary resources included the same vet hospital you went to. They were very, very helpful and, at the time, they were also actively combing the veterinary world for solutions to the very vexing disorder that my horse appeared to have. I say 'appeared to have' because I couldn't know for sure short of a necropsy and my horse was very much alive. But it had been five years of steady deterioration despite all the treatments we tried. Biopsies and cultures did not return any helpful or consistent info. I'd treat for one thing, then the next culture would show something else.

Ultimately, the vets were rather upfront about the fact that I would eventually have to put the horse down due to his condition. He couldn't stay sound, his leg was a pink, hairless, seeping mess and he'd have recurring bouts of lymphangitis. At this point, it was increasingly hard to keep him comfortable.

Like I've said, I'm not a magic remedy person. But Camrosa Ointment solved my horse's issues. Either that or my horse made some kind of miracle recovery on his own, which seems highly unlikely after five years of unrelieved skin and tissue problems. While I'd be the first person to pooh-pooh a 'magic remedy', I'm very thankful I tried this one because it made such a huge difference in my horse's quality of life.

[Ghazzu]

Garden variety scratches usually responds quite nicely to either Nolvasan ointment or (my favorite) Gentocin spray.

[FlyingPlum]

Thank-you everyone for the topical treatment advice. Both of my horses cases of 'scratches' has dramatically turned around in 48 hrs. Guess I was one of the 'lucky' ones who had just scratches. Thanks again and I learned alot about a condition I have never had to treat!

Margaret P