Can a legitimate stallion propsect be identified at birth?

[Hillside H Ranch]

I'm not a stallion owner; I'm really not even a stallion person. I far prefer my mares to "the boys". However, this is just something I'm curious about. Do you feel that a legitimate stallion candidate can be identified at birth, or within a few months of birth? Or do you think that they have to be older to truly get an idea on whether or not they are stallion material? If so, at what age do you think you definitely know? Just curious about this, as I see a lot of colts marketed as stallion prospects, but we all know that few go on to be truly "worthy" of staying intact. What do you more experienced breeders/stallion owners think?

[misita]

I think that you can identify a good stallion prospect shortly after birth; just like you would identify a good jumper or dressage prospect at this time too. Based on bloodlines, conformation, movement, and so on. I don't think you will truly KNOW if he is a REAL stallion prosepct until he is at least 3. But yes, I think you can find good prospects at a very young age. Who knows what they will truly end up being? There are so many variables. I see horses with dressage bloodlines being better jumpers. Much has to do with what the horse enjoys. Bravo and Worthy Opponent are great examples of this. Both are dressage bloodlines...but love jumping and put much more effort into it.

[Ladybug Hill]

I think that sometimes a colt has a special look right away, but it could take years to really see if they have what it takes. Pedigree, correctness, temperament, movement, jump, AND the look are just the start...the proof being what they actually sire when they get to the breeding shed.

Probably too many colts are promoted as stallion prospects. It is a hard and expensive journey to really get there.

[pintopiaffe]

well, I think a certain combination of bloodlines is the first prerequisite. So when you have that combo, and it comes out with external plumbing, visions of grandeur may start... then if there is a certain 'look' to him...

Truly, I don't think you KNOW until the colt reaches sexual maturity, and THEN you see how his temperament washes... I don't care how fancy his movement, if his mind isn't there, he gets a lower lobotomy. And I think my demands are a little higher than many, he must be worthy of group turnout, either in a bachelor herd or with pg mares. I simply won't keep a horse who can't... he gets snipped so he can.

[Dressage_Diva333]

I feel that you can indentify a colt that could be kept intact at about 3 months. But, I feel like you can't say "stallion prospect" until they are three.

Although some colts may turn out to be absolutly stunning, they may not be mentally capable of being a breeding stallion. A lot of stress is put on stallions. And horses change so much throughout their growing. I don't think it's fair to buy a three month old colt and say "I'm going to keep this horse a stallion". I think it is fair to buy a three month old colt and say "I'm going to keep him intact to see how he matures, then evaluate whether or not he's really stallion quality when he's three".

When I bought my SF colt, he was a WOW mover at three months old. So I decided to keep him intact, to see how he matures. I'm currently thinking I'm going to geld him. Though that movement is coming back (he'll be three in February), I feel like the saying is true "A good stallion will make a great gelding".

[camohn]

At this fall's inspection Jana Wagner said that a foal moves the best it will move as a weanling (without the extra body mass) and probably won't get any better than that. I think this is pretty much true. Now that does not mean the foal will move it's best at inspection. I have seen it go both ways. I have had foals that didn't move with much effort at home (slugs) get "up" and move better than I had ever seen them do at inspection time...and more that move better at home and got tense/nervous/tightened up at the scary inspection.
The one exception I had to that was one really big and super leggy colt....he was a total klutz on his excessively long stilts and being a late born foal had to go to an inspection at a very young age. He didn't get coordinated at ALL until he was about 4 months old and he certainly moves better now at 3 than he did as a baby. He is kind of an exception though. Gross confo issues you can certainly see as a weaner. As others noted, you get to see how the mind and the tempement hold out when he gets hormones and under saddle at 3 though.

[RiverOaksFarm]

I think that you can identify a good stallion prospect shortly after birth; just like you would identify a good jumper or dressage prospect at this time too. Based on bloodlines, conformation, movement, and so on. I don't think you will truly KNOW if he is a REAL stallion prosepct until he is at least 3. But yes, I think you can find good prospects at a very young age. Who knows what they will truly end up being? There are so many variables.

I agree especially with misita. (But I also agree with Ladybug Hill when she said "Probably too many colts are promoted as stallion prospects.") Camohn, I have heard that theory about weanlings too, as well as the 3 days - 3 months - 3 years in terms of the best times to evaluate a youngster.

I think you can see the superior quality and the special "something" with a quality youngster which would make you consider that youngster a stallion prospect, but I don't think you can really know for sure if they are stallion quality until they are at least 3 years old, and I don't think you can really know for sure until you've started them under saddle if the temperament and trainability is also there.

I've been involved with horses for a very long time and I've only ever bought two youngsters as stallion prospects -- I ended up gelding one of them, but the other one is one of the best known representatives of his breed -- so there are definitely no guarantees with "stallion prospects".

I've currently got another "stallion prospect". He's super quality, and super breeding. He's a Friesian Sporthorse, which aren't very common, so when you ask people about stallions, they pretty much recommend only *two*, lol. I already own one of them, and the other one is the sire of my youngster, so things are looking bright (I think it is tougher with Warmbloods because there are so many of them, and so much competition.) He's only 5 months old though, and can't be approved as a stallion until he is at least 3 years old, so alot can change between now and then. If all else fails he'll be a super gelding, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed.......

[shea'smom]

Hey, River Oaks, I am sending you a PM> We are having a silent auction Nov. 2 for some people who lost 5 horses in a fire on Srpt. 20. It just so happened that three people donated Freisian stud fees. We are taking phone bids on those. I need help spreading the word.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Although you can tell within a few days to weeks if you have a colt that meets the criteria for conformation, gaits, and some basic temperament qualities, but you won't really know if he is stallion material until he is at least EIGHT years old. He can sire all of the awesome babies you like, but until you know how his offspring are developing undersaddle, he will still be a question as a sire.

[not again]

Yes.
You know the pedigree before the foal is born. Then you see the gender (!) and the conformation and movement. Three days, three months, three years is the old rule for evaluation of stock. Stallion licensing with major registries goes on at two and a half. Breeding at three gives a jump start on evaluating foals. There are several culls of stallions through the age of 9 with most registries.
Here in the US however where we are not bound by such rigid rules, the whole process can start later at the owner's discretion. At least with the AWR I know the evaluation of get to produce first premium foals is part of the requirement to maintain a stallion's breeding license.
In many respects the current European system reminds me of racing two and three year olds however. It tilts the scale towards the fastest maturing bloodlines, but not necessarily the most trainable or longest lasting ones. Just a thought.

[nsm]

I think you can get a very strong indication that a colt may be a stallion candidate, but I also think you have to wait and see things like temperament when they are older. As to movement, in the world of hunters, foals do not move as they do when they are older for the most part. Often hunters are large, hence have large cannon bones they have to grow into, because their cannon bones are tall for their age, they do not move true until they are older.

Nancy

[Fairview Horse Center]

In many respects the current European system reminds me of racing two and three year olds however. It tilts the scale towards the fastest maturing bloodlines, but not necessarily the most trainable or longest lasting ones. Just a thought.

This is the reason Germany has lost most of the G-line as they are very late maturing. For the Hanoverians, that was a large part of their jumpers. To again breed jumpers, they have had to bring Holsteiner lines into their registry, even though they did that as an experiment in the past and stopped due to conformational issues they did not like.

[SilverBalls]

At this fall's inspection Jana Wagner said that a foal moves the best it will move as a weanling (without the extra body mass) and probably won't get any better than that.

I couldn't disagree more with this statement.

Personally, I would not know what would make a good stallion prospect. I rely on the breeders to determine what is right for their program. Then I can agree ir disagree with their decision when they get to be at least 2.
I geld my colts asap... usually anytime after 4 months.

[not again]

SB we are not talking about hunter movement here. Evaluating form and function is the job inspectors are hired to do. That is what camohn is referring to, and the remark was made within that context. Not a big deal, but breed inspection judging is very different for horse show judging.

[Lesley Feakins]

I do believe you can identify a colt as a stallion prospect very early on. Honestly, sometimes as early as 3 days. However, for me it is a constant re evaluation that goes on, often right up to the moment before they are presented for their approvals. They may have the conformation, the bloodlines, the movement very early on, but temperament for a stallion prospect is continually being assessed...and then the final assessment would be what he consistently passes on to his offspring and the quality he puts on the ground.

So I would say that for some people who have a educated eye...a stallion prospect can be identified shortly after birth.

[Oakstable]

I've put about 40 foals on the ground. One of those was a legitimate stallion prospect by looks, movement and pedigree but he couldn't concentrate when around the girls. So he was gelded. It broke the owner's heart. She bought him as a weanling.

[not again]

Oh that blinking testosterone poisoning!:lol:

[poog]

SB we are not talking about hunter movement here. Evaluating form and function is the job inspectors are hired to do. That is what camohn is referring to, and the remark was made within that context. Not a big deal, but breed inspection judging is very different for horse show judging.

Wow, I don't remember seeing on the OP that it was for sporthorse/dressage type stallions only.

I agree - Hunter babies do not show their movement until yearling or two year olds. Some even take until 3 or 4.

[Fairview Horse Center]

At this fall's inspection Jana Wagner said that a foal moves the best it will move as a weanling (without the extra body mass) and probably won't get any better than that.

I totally disagree with her. Without fail, every single one of my youngsters have developed more movement as they matured than they had as foals. More air time, and more rhythm and cadence.

[railmom]

My Quaterback colt was named a stallion prospect at his AHS inspection. I think you can tell pretty early on if you have something special. I have been blessed with some wonderful foals, but this guy kicks it up a notch and he knows it ;) It remains to be seen if he can keep his wits about him when the testosterone kicks in! A good stallion prospect makes a great gelding....

Quantum Leap's inspection photo is on my "news" page, http://spruceglenfarm.com/news.html

[mmt]

I think that overall, probably 10-25% of legitimate "stallion prospects" as deemed as foals or yearlings are actually licensed and probably even fewer are fully approved as young horses.

There are others that are approved later from sport, but I am not counting those in the equation.

Being around a few people that buy a lot of stallion prospect foals in Germany and also keep some that they breed, it seems that approximately 25% of those they bought are selected for the licensing, and then only some of those are actually licensed of course.

I actually love looking for future top sport horses from the unlicensed stallions. :-)

[vtwmbld]

I think that having been awarded the title of "stallion prospect" is simply an indicator that this particular colt is a cut above the norm and thus might be worth at least giving him a chance to remain whole. I agree that few will actually become approved stallions, but keeping a colt whole who has NOT been designated a stallion prospect is possible folly. There are so many factors involved in the prospect of making a ligitimate stallion, but you should ideally start with a juried foal. Of all the premium foals, very few are disignated as stallion prospects and I would like to hope that it has some significance, at least as an indicator of quality. They can always be turned into great geldings. There are certainly no guarantees in life, especially when horses are involved.:winkgrin: JMHO

[columbus]

I think that you can tell SOME stallions early however usually you have rule outs along the way and a startlingly nice colt gets a pass to move on. I am new to the Irish Draught breed...most of us are in the US...and all of us are learning how Irish Draughts grow. I am telling you it is not for the faint of heart. You judge your stallion prospects all along the way. First chosing the dam...is she of the quality to be the mother of a STALLION. Most mares are not. The we chose the stallion...is there a need for a stallion son of his...can the market support him. Then the foal. Is it correct...regardless of charisma. When it is time for approvals is it of the type to be approved? I love traditional type horses with bone and substance...that is not what they are approving in many modern warmblood registries. The thing about that wonderful charismatic foal you cant get out of your mind is that he might get to keep his equipment when he gets his sister in foal or when he has jumped out of all your fences and you need to build higher and more expensively or when you have to choose between selling him to a good gelding home or buying hay or he "forgets" you are there and tramples you because his sap is rising today when yesterday he was your best buddy. Or he drops, bites, strikes, screams, or yodels when the children are visiting the barn. It is hard to wait. Horrifying to take the years of investment out in public to be ripped because he is a baby boy who needs experience to learn how to live as an entire boy. All because he was a perfect colt, full of charisma and promise. When everything works you get to go "all the way" and be very proud of all you have accomplished(or lived through) to get there. Lord love 'em. PatO