weaning age and impact

[horsetales]

Might as well confess up front I'm a biologist geek and I watch almost anything on animal behavior. I have never seen a study done before that looked at weaning early and the stress it causes and the effect on the brain - behavior. I was watching a show on a study done on piglets comparing weaning early and doing it a natural age. Of course then my brain clicks to horses and wonders if there is any corolation on later behaviors and being weaned VERY early (<3months and of course not all can be avoided - death, agression)

Piglets weaned early showed much higher levels of agression when put together.

Piglets weaned early lacked the confidence of the other group and didn't like to explore - pace around a small area and would not venture out and explore the entire area

They put piglets in a small pool with a platform. Non-early weaners calmly swam and found the platform. Upon repeating, it would swim directly to the platform. Early weaners, swam frantically until running into the platform. Every time it was repeated, same behavior - no learning there was a platform

So it makes me wonder, what would a similar study with horses show. Could SOME of the "problem" (e.g. aggressive) or overly spooky horses be at least partly products of very early weaning. I am in no way saying all, just made an animal behavior geek wonder what impacts early weaning might have on horses.

[Samotis]

I think a lot of it depends on the individual weanling and situation.

I weaned my colt early (4 months) Not only was it early, he went on his first trailer ride and went up north away from his mother.

He was fine. He had no issues. Once he learned how to be turned out with the other horses, he was just fine.

He was also very independant. His mother was neurotic, but oddly enough, when we took him, she was fine with it!

Everyone warned me that it could be a bad situation, but he was totally fine.

I think that early weaning could definantly affect some babies. I think that how much they nurse has a lot to do with it too. By 4 months he was eating all her food and nursing very little.
I would think if they are nursing a lot then when they got weaned they would go through a "withdrawl" period.

I am certainly no expert, I have only had this colt, but he was fine being weaned early and certainly didn't get any bad affects from it!;)

[VirginiaBred]

It's no surprise that the older the baby is, the easier it is on both mare & foal. Time of adjustment is short lived due to a more mature mind set. The foal is more self assured and confident and used to eating with (or without) mom.

We used to wean at five months until an old time expert asked us what the hurry was, and found that the additional month is beneficial all around.

Obviously there will be exceptions (mare's health for one) but overall, later is better.

[pintopiaffe]

There was a study that I probably read in the old Practical Horseman a hundred years ago...

Obviously "generalizations" but showed that foals weaned earlier were more people oriented and compliant. Foals weaned later (6+ mos) were more independent, tended to only bond strongly with one person, and were more likely to 'think for themselves.' The conclusions of the article were that for some horses, say, pleasure horses, local rond-and-round show types, the earlier weaned would be better suited. For things like upper level eventing, or say, endurance, you'd want the later weaned--where you really want the horse to think and make (good) decisions on their own.

Which leads to an interesting question for dressage, IMO.

My Best Girl was a late weaned, and then kept with her Mum. (she was VERY late weaned, sneaking snacks behind my back as a long yearling... :uhoh: ) She was completely dedicated to me. She was a thinker, with a stubborn, independent streak. She never made it past First/working well in 2nd before she died, but I felt like the strong connection to me would balance out the independence. I never really felt like I was 'training' her, we just tried something new. She wasn't the flashiest horse on the planet... to look at her in the pasture she was a little to QH looking, you didn't think "dressage star"... but put her together and ride her, and she was stunning. I always thought she'd be my 'accidental' FEI horse--not the one I *planned* to get there, but the one that would because it was so easy for her.

I'll have to ask about my stallion. He's impeccably honest and kind. VERY attached to me, but I've always thought that was a stallion thing.

I have one that was very much in a family group. At 4.5 mos or so I left him home with the family and took Mum to a show. He was fine. (She was too--though ready for relief by the time the day was done!) He was weaned around 5 mos when she had her next foal. He is right in the middle. Incredibly bold (in a good way) and just adores people. Very into everything--'what's that? who are you? can I help?' Easy to take away from the herd, and yet Mr. Social with them. Pouts like crazy if he doesn't get taken out to play and someone else does. Hard to say if it's just HIM though.

His full sister was orphaned at 5 weeks, but adopted by my Trakehner mare with her own 1mo filly at side. She is... difficult. Emotional. Tantrums. The first horse I've ever had completely shut down on me. Very, very different than her above full brother. She's definitely maturing out of it... but the brother is SO easy. She is a challenge. I have no idea how much of that is emotional baggage on MY part though. ;)

[Altamont Sport Horses]

We shall see. I started weaning a 4.5 month old filly last night. I usually don't wean until much later but she is huge and the vet said I needed to go ahead and wean her due to her size. I really didn't want to yet and have been putting it off because she is not a very confident filly, not like my others at least, but I don't want her to have joint problems and she is dragging her dam down like I have never experienced before. The dam seemed relieved and gave a big sigh when I put her in a different stall last night. No calling, pacing, nothing from the dam. Filly is upset but able to make nose-to-nose contact at the stall wall since I took a couple of boards down. I have been checking on them periodically, of course, and only 2 hours after separation the dam is laying down in her stall having a very good nap. I guess she was ready for this more than I had anticipated. She did suffer a bad injury just before foaling so I know that having this foal has been particularly hard on her. She would rarely lie down to rest - it seems she wanted to stand watch over her filly. And now she can really rest without worrying about having to protect her filly. I'm hoping this helps her heal faster from her injury.

[ise@ssl]

MOre recent studies show that foals weaned later have fewer health problems with respect to ulcers. We've been breeding for 22 years and find it's better to leave them with the mare longer and also find they are easier to train. The foal mentioned above who was on a trailer at 4 months and very independent may NOT turn out to be a horse that is easy to trainer. If he already has a mind frame that he's o.k. by himself - his training might reveal that he really isn't interested in working with humans for training.

Most of our mares are bred every other year so we can leave the foals on - though they do naturally wean them - i.e. don't let them nurse as much.

[Castlegate]

Well, Pilsner was weaned at 3 months exactly because his mother died...and so far, no ill effects and the weaning itself was completely uneventful....he is very obedient for his age..now 6 months...and he is very much a follower...I dont see him ever being an alpha horse...before he was weaned he was dangerous...too big for his breeches and just a BAD baby...I was seriously worried...his early weaning changed him within hours...really...and I am actually greatful for the end result. We left him in a stall for 3 days in between his Aunt and Uncle....and on the third day he was turned out with his uncle....they are now the best of buddies...

[alison123]

I think it depends on the weanling, I had one filly that was so full of herself because she had her mom around and when we weaned her around 5 months or a little earlier her attitude changed greatly. Because mom wasnt there she was listening and responding much better to us. We have a foal now that is with her mom but very independent, and her joints look great so I see no hurry in taking her away..

[Katie-Nicole]

My yearling filly was weaned at 8 weeks due to the fact that the mare was a savage and we knew she just wasn't ever going to adjust. What a nightmare! The filly is the calmest, most assured individual. She isn't reactionary or emotional. She's smart, level-headed and the easiest thing to train. We took her right off the property at weaning and moved her to another farm. The relationship between mother and foal was so stressed and forced, that the weaning was uneventful and actually welcomed. The mare and filly are now turned out together and they tolerate each other well, but are easily separated.

[seramisu]

I imagine that when they wean piglets early, they don't substitute any authority figure for the mama pig. The piglets are left with no one but each other to learn from and follow.

In most instances, when foals are weaned very early (I'm talking a month or two here - I think the piglets in the study were weaned very early as opposed to on-the-early-side-of-normal) due to circumstances, orphaned or aggressive dams, we try and get another mare to "adopt" them - even if she can't produce milk for the baby it can get attached to her and take behavior cues from her. If there is no other mare available we, the humans, are at least coming out to feed the baby many times per day and trying to teach it how to behave and explore. I think it's unlikely that early-weaned foals would have as many confidence and learning issues than the piglets in the study because we try our best to provide structure and and a role model for them to the best of our ability, even if's it's just intensive care from a person rather than another horse. I'm guessing that if we weaned foals very early and left them with no company but each other, providing only the necessary care - throwing feed etc - they would show more of the same learning/confidence "disabilities" that the piglets do.

Disclaimer: I'm also looking at this from a science geek point of view, noticing the differences in the methodology between the piglets and foals. I don't have any personal experience with very early weaned foals :)

[pintopiaffe]

Castlegate, I had the opposite--yet same reaction in my orphan. She was only 5 weeks but was like a little deer she was so shy. Couldn't get near her. From the time Mama left, she was then a 'people foal.' I am not sure that orphans and those being savaged can really fall into the same category, because the stress really changes things dramatically...

[vandenbrink]

I have an mare that was an orphan before she was a month old. She was turned out with a donkey at first, and then an older sibling for companionship and respect.

Now....10 years later she's been a mother to 4 foals. She's an aggressive mare to other horses, and sometimes to her foals. She raises them fine, but she will NOT share her grain with them. They better not even get close when she eats. She's a O.K. mom, and gives them lots of milk, she's just not all that affectionate. She also very territorial with any horse lower in the pecking order.

She pretty much breathes a sigh of relief when we wean...it's funny.

We love her, but she's not for everyone. She is a lot of horse. I had her at a boarding stable where she intimidated some of the handlers, but to a horse professional she's harmless. She's very respectful of people, but then again, that's probably due to consistent good handling. She's the kind of horse that could be a problem in the wrong hands.

So yes, in this case, early weaning may have resulted in more aggression....or then again...maybe that's just her!!

[Katie-Nicole]

I have an mare that was an orphan before she was a month old. She was turned out with a donkey at first, and then an older sibling for companionship and respect.

Now....10 years later she's been a mother to 4 foals. She's an aggressive mare to other horses, and sometimes to her foals. She raises them fine, but she will NOT share her grain with them. They better not even get close when she eats. She's a O.K. mom, and gives them lots of milk, she's just not all that affectionate. She also very territorial with any horse lower in the pecking order.

She pretty much breathes a sigh of relief when we wean...it's funny.

We love her, but she's not for everyone. She is a lot of horse. I had her at a boarding stable where she intimidated some of the handlers, but to a horse professional she's harmless. She's very respectful of people, but then again, that's probably due to consistent good handling. She's the kind of horse that could be a problem in the wrong hands.

So yes, in this case, early weaning may have resulted in more aggression....or then again...maybe that's just her!!

Funny, what you describe is much like the savage mare who's foal was weaned early. My mare can be a very intimidating, bulldoggish type. You have to be a confident, near-professional, or else she'll run you down. She HATED her foal, and refused to let it nurse. We would put her in stocks and chain her legs to let the baby nurse. The mare's fighting in the stocks freaked the foal out and eventually, she refused to get near the mare. Once she was effectively eating pellets, she was weaned. The foal was a solo, and was turned out alone, after being attacked by an aggressive gelding. (He tore her neck open pretty good - and he had always been a babysitter. This foal carried a scarlet letter from the day she was born I guess.) We humans were extremely protective of her, and she really blossomed. The forums here are way too casual to really determine any kind of pattern, though I would be interested in seeing some sort of study done. BTW - I watched the same thing on the pigs on Saturday night. It was really interesting. Made me feel bad for chowing down on 6 strips of bacon that morning.

[SSFLandon]

I have a weanling who's mom was sold at 3 months. We bought him when he was about 4 months. He has had some physical problems (hernia and broken adult tooth all of which he came with) that we have had to deal with but, nothing stemming from the weaning that I can tell. He is very friendly and mellow. He going out with some ponies and a mare that did have 1 foal several years ago. they are all calm too so I hope he stays that way. His friends age ranges are from 2-9 so he gets all different types to live with.

my question is does weaning early effect growth potential? could a horse end of smaller if weaned too soon?

[Samotis]

When we moved my colt, he was put in with another TB mare that took care of him. He was with her for 3 months. At 7 months he is now at my friends with 5 other horses. While he doesn't get turned out with the adults (they are all big warmbloods with shoes) he is next to them and perfectly happy.

He has been a simple baby. His inspection was at 7.5 months and he was an angel. We are also teaching him to be a HB baby and he is great!

So the "hard to train" stigma doesn't apply here!

I really think it depends on their mind. Sure other things affect it, but if they are eating adult food and nurse lightly, I think it would be safe to say they can be weaned!

As for growth rate of an early weaned foal... I don't think it affects their size. My colt is 14.1 at 8 months and he has been growing a lot ever since he was weaned!