2008 H.O.Y.ZENYATTA

[Andrew]

Without any doubts or hesitation she deserves it..... it would be a tough call if Curlin would have won today, but every writer and voter has to vote the UNDEFEATED IMPRESSIVE FILLY ZENYATTA 2008 HORSE OF THE YEAR....

[taylor93]

Not sure about that. Curlin ran and won in international open races. Zenyatta in only restricted races. So, who's the champ?:winkgrin:

[Drvmb1ggl3]

Not sure about that. Curlin ran and won in international open races. Zenyatta in only restricted races. So, who's the champ?:winkgrin:

Somebody gets it.:yes::yes:

[harvestmoon]

Not sure about that. Curlin ran and won in international open races. Zenyatta in only restricted races. So, who's the champ?:winkgrin:

Yeah, that. :) Sorry Zenyatta.

[Andrew]

Somebody gets it.:yes::yes:


Oh I get it all right, I have my shadow roll, and blinkers off to see the broader picture.. totally undefeted -vs- world winner and looses a big one= Zenyatta HOY 2008.

It's no different if in College Football #1 -vs-#2 and #1 looses #2 is the Champ!

[RiddleMeThis]

It's no different if in College Football #1 -vs-#2 and #1 looses #2 is the Champ!BIG difference here. 1 competes DIRECTLY against 2. Zenyatta never directly competed against Curlin.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

Oh I get it all right, I have my shadow roll, and blinkers off to see the broader picture.. totally undefeted -vs- world winner and looses a big one= Zenyatta HOY 2008.

It's no different if in College Football #1 -vs-#2 and #1 looses #2 is the Champ!

Peppers Pride is undefeated too, maybe she should get horse of the year.

Zenyatta didn't race in open company, Curlin did, he went to Dubai and took on the best that the world could muster as regards dirt horses, from Japan, South America, UAE, South Africa. He beat them.
He beat any dirt horse that opposed him in the US from the Donn in Jan to the JCGC in Sep. He got beat on synth by two very very good European horses, but at least he raced against them, which Zenyatta didn't do (or more correctly, her connections wouldn't let her do).
To go back to your much flawed analogy, a more fitting one would be NCAA div1 #1 versus NCAA div2 #1, who wins?

[gubbyz]

I vote for Curlin, he showed more versatility and took chances outside his zone.

[GreenMachine]

I agree with the dissent. Zenyatta is a grand, grand filly, but Curlin's camp took more chances and he, for the most part, rose to them. I would love to see Zenyatta have the same kind of challenging campaign next year--I think she'd prove herself to be even greater. But this year, I think the nod goes to Curlin.

[DickHertz]

Without any doubts or hesitation she deserves it..... it would be a tough call if Curlin would have won today, but every writer and voter has to vote the UNDEFEATED IMPRESSIVE FILLY ZENYATTA 2008 HORSE OF THE YEAR....

I agree. Had Curlin won the turf race and/or the Breeders Cup Classic he gets it, but he didn't. There is no doubt that Zenyatta is the horse of the year. Not even close.

[Glimmerglass]

I wonder if Curlin's connections will feel they need to race in the Clark Handicap afterall to shore up the voting for HOTY. He likely has been assured an Eclipse for Older Male. Still I wouldn't cast a vote for Curlin over Zenyatta for HOTY.

Curlin 2008: 6 starts 4-1-0. The Jaguar Trophy was ungraded I believe, but otherwise the other 5 were grade 1/group 1 starts.

Zenyatta 2008: 7 starts 7-0-0. Of the 7 races 4 were grade 1 and other 3 were grade 2.

I don't buy the "but he tried different surfaces" stuff as a way to forgive his turf loss or pro-ride loss.

[Andrew]

Thanks Dick!!

[Glimmerglass]

Ray Paulick's website has a poll for the HOTY see on the left column, midway down the page (http://www.paulickreport.com/). Zenyatta, Big Brown, or Curlin. Right now [9:30 am EST] it is running 59% Zenyatta to 32% Curlin and 9% Big Brown.

[harvestmoon]

Peppers Pride is undefeated too, maybe she should get horse of the year.

Zenyatta didn't race in open company, Curlin did, he went to Dubai and took on the best that the world could muster as regards dirt horses, from Japan, South America, UAE, South Africa. He beat them.
He beat any dirt horse that opposed him in the US from the Donn in Jan to the JCGC in Sep. He got beat on synth by two very very good European horses, but at least he raced against them, which Zenyatta didn't do (or more correctly, her connections wouldn't let her do).
To go back to your much flawed analogy, a more fitting one would be NCAA div1 #1 versus NCAA div2 #1, who wins?

Good idea, PP for HOTY!

Did Zenyatta ever race outside of CA?

[Drvmb1ggl3]

Good idea, PP for HOTY!

Did Zenyatta ever race outside of CA?

Yes she did, she won the Apple Blossom on dirt at Oaklawn, beating Ginger Punch.

I don't think anyone would argue that she's not a fantastic filly. I just can't see how you can award a HOY title to a horse that raced in restricted company all year. I also think that giving her the title encourages that silliness of keeping top class fillies in the safe zone of F/M races. I hate that. If they're good enough the should be going toe to toe with the boys. Zarkava did it, Goldikova did it, Ouija Board did it, Pride did it, Makybe Diva did it. They all kicked they boys asses in open company, most of them on multiple occasions. I wish they would do it a lot more in the US. Of course it doesn't help that there's an overabundance of F/M G1s in the US so they never have to step outside their comfort zone and can continue to pick up the easy cheques.

[WhiteCamry]

Without any doubts or hesitation she deserves it..... it would be a tough call if Curlin would have won today, but every writer and voter has to vote the UNDEFEATED IMPRESSIVE FILLY ZENYATTA 2008 HORSE OF THE YEAR....

Second the motion!

[harvestmoon]

Yes she did, she won the Apple Blossom on dirt at Oaklawn, beating Ginger Punch.

Ah, okay, thanks! :)

[VirginiaBred]

Here she is winning the Apple Blossom:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X9171jxrlE

[Calico]

Even though the media does not seem agree, Big Brown should get a nod for HOY. This year, he won 4 G1's, won on dirt and turf, and won twice in open company including a GI. He also had the most impressive performances when he was on his game.

My personal opinion is that Zenyatta should have run in the Classic if she is to be considered for HOY. Then she would have beat Curlin fair and square, and proven that she deserves the title.

I totally agree with the following:

I don't think anyone would argue that she's not a fantastic filly. I just can't see how you can award a HOY title to a horse that raced in restricted company all year. I also think that giving her the title encourages that silliness of keeping top class fillies in the safe zone of F/M races. I hate that. If they're good enough the should be going toe to toe with the boys. Zarkava did it, Goldikova did it, Ouija Board did it, Pride did it, Makybe Diva did it. They all kicked they boys asses in open company, most of them on multiple occasions. I wish they would do it a lot more in the US. Of course it doesn't help that there's an overabundance of F/M G1s in the US so they never have to step outside their comfort zone and can continue to pick up the easy cheques.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

Big Brown only raced in open company once, in the made-up stakes race on turf at Monmouth, where granted he raced on more or less equal weights with some older turfers, but they were G3/G2 quality horses at best.
The rest of his races were all against 3yos, and man it's hard to overlook that flop in the Belmont. I'd have to give it to Curlin when comparing the totality of their records over the year.

[Calico]

Oh I agree, HOY should be Curlin. Or maybe Raven's Pass ;)

[Glimmerglass]

My personal opinion is that Zenyatta should have run in the Classic if she is to be considered for HOY.

She didn't and the Moss/Shirreff camp wasn't planning on it either. (http://www.drf.com/news/article/99471.html)

Asked if Zenyatta should have been in the Classic in order to vie for Horse of the Year against the best in the world, Shirreffs referenced the breakdown of Eight Belles in the Kentucky Derby.

“On the heels of some of the things that happened earlier in the year, it was in the best interest of Zenyatta, and in the best interest of racing, to run in the Ladies’ Classic against the best fillies in the world, and they all showed up,” Shirreffs said.

“It’s always in your mind when filles cross over, not just Eight Belles,” he said. “I just didn’t feel it was the right thing to do. I felt it was important for her to win a Breeders’ Cup race and be a champion. That was more important than racing in the Classic.”

Bobby Frankel isn't (http://www.nypost.com/seven/10272008/sports/horseracing/zenyatta_may_eclipse_curlin_135503.htm) without his own experience or insight:

"One thing we learned this weekend is that Pro-Ride is somewhere between dirt and turf. I knew Curlin was vulnerable because he ran on turf and lost."

"That's the chance they [racing Curlin at Santa Anita on pro-ride] took," Frankel said. "Mineshaft skipped the Classic [run at Santa Anita] when he was Horse of the Year. I wouldn't have run Curlin here."

[Drvmb1ggl3]

Asked if Zenyatta should have been in the Classic in order to vie for Horse of the Year against the best in the world, Shirreffs referenced the breakdown of Eight Belles in the Kentucky Derby.

“On the heels of some of the things that happened earlier in the year, it was in the best interest of Zenyatta, and in the best interest of racing, to run in the Ladies’ Classic against the best fillies in the world, and they all showed up,” Shirreffs said.

Two things..
It is really starting to get annoying that people keep attributing Eight Belles breakdown to running against boys. There is absolutely no evidence, nada, zilch to suggest that that was the reason for her breakdown. She could just have easily brokedown the day before running in the Kentucky Oaks.

Zenyatta didn't race against the best fillies in the world, Mr shirreffs seems to have missed Saturdays racing and the performace of a certain Goldikova, not to mention another French filly who's name starts with a "Z" and ends with an "A" but is not not named Zenyatta.

[EventerAJ]

Two things..
It is really starting to get annoying that people keep attributing Eight Belles breakdown to running against boys. There is absolutely no evidence, nada, zilch to suggest that that was the reason for her breakdown. She could just have easily brokedown the day before running in the Kentucky Oaks.

Zenyatta didn't race against the best fillies in the world, Mr shirreffs seems to have missed Saturdays racing and the performace of a certain Goldikova, not to mention another French filly who's name starts with a "Z" and ends with an "A" but is not not named Zenyatta.


Agreed on all counts. I don't believe she ever faced Proud Spell, either.

Curlin faced the best in the world, out of his comfort zone on Pro-Ride. Not excusing his loss, but lessening its importance. His Dubai WC performance more than makes up for the BC.

Had Zenyatta left CA a bit more, and/or raced well in graded company against the boys, I would definitely move her above Curlin. But he's on a different level right now.

[Blinkers On]

Curlin HOY.
Zenyatta top mare
BB Three Year old.
Curlin didn't run a bad race the other day. When Robby asked him he kept running. It was a very grass/european run race. He didn't exactly disgrace himself.
I saw Raven's Pass train last week, and frankly he caught my eye. A strong, shiny, good moving stand out last week.
Curlin't got a good resume. I doubt they run again this year, but I could be wrong. He's had a long year. shipped to Dubai and back and never missed a beat, like so many others. He's been healthy, sound, shipped around.
He's still tops in my book.

[Andrew]

Curlin HOY.
Zenyatta top mare
BB Three Year old.
Curlin didn't run a bad race the other day. When Robby asked him he kept running. It was a very grass/european run race. He didn't exactly disgrace himself.
I saw Raven's Pass train last week, and frankly he caught my eye. A strong, shiny, good moving stand out last week.
Curlin't got a good resume. I doubt they run again this year, but I could be wrong. He's had a long year. shipped to Dubai and back and never missed a beat, like so many others. He's been healthy, sound, shipped around.
He's still tops in my book.

Yes he did, he didn't win, came in 4th and didn't look like a champion.

[Blinkers On]

He did keep running. I was actually astonished to see him keep running like he did. They show one angle where you can see him rebreak when the horses came to him. He really ran a very good race! A race that was run like a European turf race. He ran tremendously well!

[DickHertz]

You can't win the Dubai World Cup and be crowned champion in March. You must compete well in the Breeders Cup, not run 4th, I don't care if they were running on pavement. He obviously trained good enough for Assmussen to enter him in the Classic, he was wrong. They toyed with the whole turf notion and were wrong. He may be the best horse, but he only raced six times and he lost twice. Zenyatta performed like a champion and won every race like a champion.

[Blinkers On]

I love Zenyatta, Dick! But Curlin is king for me! She's queen for sure.

[gubbyz]

"Zenyatta performed like a champion and won every race like a champion."


And so did Peppers Pride! :winkgrin:

Curlin proved himself in world class company and on different tracks around the world.
__________________

[Glimmerglass]

Curlin proved himself in world class company and on different tracks around the world.

Not that anyone can or really should try and change your opinion, but venturing just once outside of the US to win in Duabi does not "make" a single year. The facts are that he lost twice - once off the board entirely - which has to be considered.

I know some on this BB think otherwise, but its been generally regarded all along that synthetic surfaces work closer to grass then dirt. Hence people thought he might skip the BCC because (1) BB wasn't going and (2) he isn't a grass horse at all, but they took a risk and it failed. Not as bad of a failure as the connections of Casino Drive but still poor.

TB Times 10-26-08 (http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/racing-news/2008/October/26/Trainer-says-Curlin-looked-uncomfortable-in-Classic.aspx)

Asmussen said he noticed early in the race the four-year-old Smart Strike colt was not handling the synthetic Pro-Ride surface as well as he handles traditional dirt tracks. The trainer’s concerns were confirmed when Curlin flattened out in the stretch under jockey Robby Albarado and faded to finish fourth after making a bold, sweeping move on the final turn.

Seriously, Steve the lackluster start on grass and his initial workout on the Santa Anita proride surface should've been enough of a sign. Does that take away from his talents? No. However unlike Dr. Fager or John Henry - who each could have raced on broken glass and won - he just isn't adept at multiple surfaces.

If they race in the Clark Handicap (and win) then I think they've reaffirmed their hopes for winning HOTY. Otherwise I'd give the nod to Zenyatta.

[Calico]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calico
My personal opinion is that Zenyatta should have run in the Classic if she is to be considered for HOY.

She didn't and the Moss/Shirreff camp wasn't planning on it either.


That's why it seems strange that they are lobbying for HOY when they admittedly didn't campaign for it.

I don't think the comparison to Azeri's 2002 campaign holds water, either, but again that's just an opinion and many disagree. :winkgrin:

[Andrew]

[QUOTE=Calico;3610831]That's why it seems strange that they are lobbying for HOY when they admittedly didn't campaign for it.


That's the beauty of it.... they didn't try,they didn't have have big press confernces,didn't have any controversy, just classicaly, calmly, campaigned a lovely lovey, race horse who is undefeated and should be HOY...

Synthetic/non-synthetic excuses... like Glimer said if Curlin was as great at Cigar ect.... he should be able to run on glass.. well said Glimmer.. thank you :-)

[Drvmb1ggl3]

Synthetic/non-synthetic excuses... like Glimer said if Curlin was as great at Cigar ect.... he should be able to run on glass.. well said Glimmer.. thank you :-)

Cigar was a flop as a grass horse, which is why he ended up on dirt, he was actually turf bred. He may have underperformed on synths too for all we know, they just weren't around in his day. He also failed in his attempt to annex a 2nd BC Classic, hmmmm, just like Curlin.
What was your point again?

[Blinkers On]

In theory, if they had had championship on synthetics back in the day of Cigar,he would have gone down to defeat. Wouldn't have made him any less of a racehorse. He couldn't untangle himself on turf, but was more than a superior dirt horse. It would be unfair to hold Curlin with to a different rule.
He did run well on turf in the one start, though he did not win. He also ran well in BBC, and was out run by horses who's style seemed very effective on the surface throughout the weekend.
It is probable to say that Curlin would be on a very equal playing field when it comes to synthetics. Hard to actually compare horses from different eras who ran on different surface. Though more or less share the same "chink" in their armor.
Before BC, I didn't think a lack lustre race would effect the outcome of his quest for repeat for HOY. I feel the same now.
Cigar was allowed to show himself not to be versatile on any surface. The same should be extended to Curlin.

[Coral]

So, it seems like the Curlin camp should have never tried anything else and just entered in races where they knew they could win or where they had a huge advantage. Then everyone could have just called him perfect and walked their way to the HOY honors without question. Sorry, I prefer the gutsy moves and taking chances, that's what the spirit of competition is about in my opinion.

They can reward being conservative if they like, but I honestly think it's not in the best interest of the sport.

[Texarkana]

Drvmb1ggl3, you have endless patience...

[Calico]

Hey Drvmb1ggl3, I did not make the statement that you quoted above. Perhaps you could kindly edit so the correct poster is noted?

Yes, you do have endless patience :)

[Glimmerglass]

For what it's worth ...

This concluded the Final Week of the 2008 NTRA Thoroughbred Poll conducted by the National Thoroughbred Racing Association (NTRA), covering racing performances through October 26.

Current Horse of the Year ranking of the top Thoroughbred as 10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1 basis with first place votes in parentheses, 2008 record and total points.

Direct NTRA link - scroll down [top chart is earnings] to second chart (http://www.ntra.com/stats_index.aspx)

1 - Zenyatta @ 170 points
2 - Curlin @ 158 points
3 - Big Brown @ 104 points
4 - Raven's Pass @ 103 points

[harvestmoon]

So? I still don't agree with it.

[*jumper*]

Curlin, hands down.

If anything, he showed us what versatility is these days, and he deserves to go out a champ. I was at the BC, and while it was a disappointment to see him lose, it was amazing to see how the crowd responded to him anyway--they welcomed him back like the champion he is. He's has done and faced far more than Zenyatta has, as talented as she is. I think what makes Curlin most appealing to me personally is that he isn't this perfect horse--he has lost, yet he always seems to get back up and fight on. I honestly think that is the mark of a true champion. He's an iron horse; he's faced the best, taken some shots, and kept going.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

Hey Drvmb1ggl3, I did not make the statement that you quoted above. Perhaps you could kindly edit so the correct poster is noted?



oops, sorry about that.