Which European Registries Use Graphs for Stallions?

[Samotis]

I can't recall where I just saw this, but it had a bar graph showing a stallions strengths and weakness's.

It was very interesting and so great to see! It had everything you needed to know. Movement, jumping, conformation!

Is this a certain registry that does this? This is something that could really help out someone who is looking into certain stallions.

What other registries will post what is good/bad about a stallion and what he seems to pass on in his offspring?

It seems that most US stallion websites don't post all this great information and certainly not the bad stuff.

I just think it is very interesting and maybe a reason the Europeans are better at match making! They have all the answers. Not just the good stuff!

[1derful]

German Hanoverian Verband has it. Try: http://service.vit.de/hvp/index.jsp?zv=31&jahr=2008

Enter a stallion name, and see the graph at the bottom.

I once surfed to a Dutch stallion site that had detailed stallion data though not in graphs, but I can't find it right now.

Have fun,

[1derful]

BTW, we need a consolidated horse identification system to tie all the information or, in technical term, relate all the data from breed and competition organizations together. Also, most US warmblood breeding stocks don't produce enough offspring, and the offspring's owners may or may not take them to inspection/evaluation or recognized competition to produce enough data to make statistics more trustworthy.

TBs have good stats for racing, but they don't care about their phenotype or other sport results. I don't know how many TBs are registered with PHR. It may be able to start producing offspring performance stats, if not conformation stats, for TB sires and dams/dam sires.

Edited to add for anyone interested: the diverse ID systems used by various organizations can be overcome actually quite easily with an ID mapping table. With web2.0+ mashup technology, webservices can be built to talk to all the DBs to pull all the data together as if everything comes from one consolidated database. It'll be a fun little project if I get an invester. ;)

[Aristeia]

Could it be Interstallion? It's with the World Breeding Federation for Sport Horses and lists all of that stuff for every stallion registered in it. I think it has graphs showing the stallions weaknesses/strengths, estimated breeding values, etc ...

[sixpoundfarm]

http://www.dutchhorsesunlimited.com/

Browse to the breeding section, and choose Dutch stallions for the linear graphs.
The option for stallion choice allows you to choose traits you want/don't want and it will suggest a list of stallions from its database. Pretty cool!!

KWPN Stallion may have something similar, but I am not a member. :(

[Tomi]

The Swedish site:
http://www.blup.se/en-US/pages/short_intro

An example:
http://www.blup.se/en-US/horses/5040-master-swbaple:

[Samotis]

Wow, that is great that so many registries do this! What a help!

We sure could benefit in the US if we had something like this.

It is true that there are many racing TB's that move on to have great jumping careers. It should also track those accomplishments!

When I was looking for a stallion last year, it would have been nice to have all the info on the stallions I was looking at. Showing what weaknesses and what stallions seem to produce with certain mares is a great start when looking to breed a mare!

Thanks for all the websites! I have something to do now!

[Samotis]

Ok, that is what it is called. Breeding Index for Stallions.

Is that just for Dutch stallions? It is great that it shows what type they are. Long legs, light body types, long/short neck. Also jumping style and how much scope and how careful they are!

Now if all stallions could have a breeding index!

Another question, is it a group of the same people that do these breeding index's? It would make sense because each person could have their own idea of what a horse looks like.

[Samotis]

I just looked up the KWPN and they don't have those breeding index's on their stallions!

So where do I find the stallions that actually have breeding index's?

[1derful]

http://www.dutchhorsesunlimited.com/

The option for stallion choice allows you to choose traits you want/don't want and it will suggest a list of stallions from its database. Pretty cool!!


This is exactly what I was trying to locate earlier. The stallion page shows great details. I wonder how accurate the stats are. Most of the parameters seem to be subjective, such as tall and short. My "tall" may be the next person's "short". I understand it is in shown in percentile, but unless the absolute value for the average "100" is published, it's a bit hard to know exactly what it means. Also, without mare line stats, it's hard to really verify whether my mare will be a good fit. For example, if the SO always carefully select mares prepotent in passing down strong back to offset the stallion's weaker back, then from the offspring good back value, I don't gain the right info for my mare who might not have the best back.

Nevertheless, it is a valuable tool for comparing among the stallions with published data though nothing is going to beat the ability to assess individual breeding stock and his/her prepotency or lack thereof.

[1derful]

The Swedish site:
http://www.blup.se/en-US/pages/short_intro

An example:
http://www.blup.se/en-US/horses/5040-master-swbaple:

The indices look similar to the Hanoverian stallion's index. The pages contain a lot more information and are very well presented. Very nice!

[karin@dutchbreeders@aol.com]

"This is exactly what I was trying to locate earlier. The stallion page shows great details. I wonder how accurate the stats are.....

......Nevertheless, it is a valuable tool for comparing among the stallions with published data though nothing is going to beat the ability to assess individual breeding stock and his/her prepotency or lack thereof......."


Hello Violet and Everyone!
I just wanted to add that this website has greatly helped me in assessing potential stallions for my mares.....

http://www.dutchhorsesunlimited.com/

I just wanted to point out however, that in order to gain valuable and accurate data, you must understand that these indexes and charts are on the traits of the OFFSPRING of said stallions....Not assessments of the stallions THEMSELVES....

I cut and and pasted another FANTASTIC feature of this site below.....This site actually allows you to type in the TRAITS of YOUR MARE, and then the DESIRED TRAITS for her future foal, and the site will actually spit out a LIST OF STALLIONS THAT COULD MATCH UP WITH YOUR MARE IN ORDER TO PROVIDE YOU WITH A FOAL WITH THE TRAITS THAT YOU INDICATED THAT YOU DESIRE....Pretty cool huh?? Obviously objectivity is very, very, important, along with some knowledge of what the "average" for each particular trait is in Holland.....the value of 100 is considered average.....

One other word of advice...Try not to think of the LEFT side of descriptions and traits, or the RIGHT side of descriptions of traits as GOOD or BAD....They are just descriptions and ranges......Also of interest is the fact that the "Standard Deviation" is 7 points.....So everything "within" seven points is considered "normal" for the population of the KWPN horse in Holland.....

Hope this helps! This site has been VERY helpful to me in doing my research over the years, and honestly, I have not had a "disapointing" foal since I started using this tool....It is just a tool, but in my opinion a way to minimize risk, and as a breeder, it has proven very usefull to me.....

Warmly,
Karin

HERE IS THE INFO FROM THE PAGE OF THE WEBSITE WHERE YOU DESCRIBE YOUR MARE'S TRAITS, AND THE TRAITS DESIRED IN HER FOAL IN ORDER TO GET A LIST OF STALLIONS THAT MIGHT COMPLEMENT HER.....


"Please give a description of your mare below. In order to estimate the expected values for the foal for conformation and sport indices, you need to give an indication of what the values are for your mare.
Traits in dim colour are no longer used, although the system still contains the values for older stallions.


Description Mare

Conformation


88 92 96 100 104 108 112

Size
Small
Tall

Model
Rectangle
Square

Body : Orientation Upward Downward

Head/neck connection
Light
Heavy

Length of neck
Long
Short

Set of neck
Vertical
Horizontal

Musculature of the neck
Heavy
Light

Length of withers
Long
Short

Wither height
High
Low

Length of shoulder
Long
Short

Slope of shoulder
Flat
Steep

Length back and loins
Long
Short

Strength of back and loins
Strong
Weak

Strength of back
Strong
Weak

Strength of loins
Strong
Weak

Slope of croup
Steep
Flat

Length of croup
Long
Short

Musculature of thighs
Heavy
Light

Foreleg stand
knock kneed
Hollow

Hind leg stand
Sickle hocked Upright

Pastern
Sloping
Upright

Hoof shape
Wide
Narrow

Coronets
High
Low

Bone quality
Hard
Soft

Size of bones
Heavy
Light

Length of pace
Long
Short

Suppleness of pace
Supple
Stiff

Correctness of pace
Pigeon toed
Dishing

Length of trot
Long
Short

Suppleness of trot
Supple
Stiff

Strength of trot
Strong
Weak

Outline in trot
Self-carriage
Labored gait

Balance of trot
Lifted
Pushing

Space of canter
Long
Short

Scope of canter
Strong
Weak

Balance of canter
Carrying
Pushing

Orientation of scope
Upward
Downward

Speed of scope
Fast
SLow

Technique of front leg
Folded
Stretched

Technique of use of back
Round
Hollow

Technique of hind leg
Open
Fixed

Scope
Much
Little

Suppleness
Much
Little

Carefulness
Carefull
Careless

Sport


40 60 80 100 120 140 160

Index Jumping
below average
above average

Index Dressage
below average
above average



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BELOW IS WHERE YOU PLUG IN DESIRED TRAITS FOR THE FOAL:

Please indicate what your breeding objective is. You can check which traits you want to include in your selection of stallions. In other words, on which traits do you want to improve your mare? The values indicated are the values which you want your foal to be.
Traits in dim colour are no longer used, and no information is available for these traits of younger stallions.


Description Foal

Conformation


88 92 96 100 104 108 112

Size
Small Tall

Model
Rectangle Square

Body : Orientation
Upward Downward

Head/neck connection
Light Heavy

Length of neck
Long
Short

Set of neck
Vertical Horizontal

Musculature of the neck
Heavy Light

Length of withers
Long Short

Wither height
High Low

Length of shoulder
Long Short t

Slope of shoulder
Flat Steep

Length back and loins
Long Short

Strength of back and loins
Strong Weak

Strength of back
Strong Weak

Strength of loins
Strong
Weak

Slope of croup
Steep Flat

Length of croup
Long Short

Musculature of thighs
Heavy Light

Foreleg stand
knock kneed
Hollow

Hind leg stand
Sickle hocked
Upright

Pastern
Sloping
Upright

Hoof shape
Wide Narrow

Coronets
High Low

Bone quality
Hard
Soft

Size of bones
Heavy
Light

Length of pace
Long
Short

Suppleness of pace
Supple Stiff

Correctness of pace
Pigeon toed
Dishing

Length of trot
Long
Short

Suppleness of trot
Supple
Stiff

Strength of trot
Strong
Weak

Outline in trot
Self-carriage
Labored gait

Balance of trot
Lifted
Pushing

Space of canter
Long
Short

Scope of canter
Strong
Weak

Balance of canter
Carrying
Pushing

Orientation of scope
Upward
Downward

Speed of scope
Fast
SLow

Technique of front leg
Folded
Stretched

Technique of use of back
Round
Hollow

Technique of hind leg
Open
Fixed

Scope
Much
Little

Suppleness
Much
Little

Carefulness
Carefull
Careless





Sport


40 60 80 100 120 140 160

Index Jumping
below average
above average

Index Dressage
below average above average


ENJOY!
Warmly,
Karin

[Samotis]

Ok, so I plugged my mare into the "database" and put down what I would like my foal to be like.

and the winner is....


Berlin! So I look him up and yes, he is beautiful, great jumper and grey. I wanted to breed my mare to a grey this time. And another interesting thing is she has Cassini which has been in a few other stallions I have been looking at.

Quite interesting. Of course his frozen is super pricey, but hey, if I win the lottery soon, you know who I will be picking!;)

[imajacres]

I tried it too, with 3 very different mares, and I always got Berlin???? Also, I didnt get the scores for him, only his breeding index?

[Samotis]

well maybe it doesn't work!

Couldn't be coincidence that you got Berlin too. On the upside, I did do some research and found that Berlin has a son.

His name is Eurocommerce Zurich. I think he is 4 and his damside is Concorde. So he may be a better bet. Plus he is 900 euros compared to 3500 euros!;)

Still looking at Winning Mood though. I like him a lot!

I like the graphs, but it doesn't seem too many stallions have this graph filled out.

[1derful]

Hello Violet and Everyone!
..., you must understand that these indexes and charts are on the traits of the OFFSPRING of said stallions....Not assessments of the stallions THEMSELVES....
...


Thanks for posting the info. What I try to point out is there is no information on the dams of these offspring. For example, the stallion's offspring might all score really high with nice front legs, but he could be breeding mares with very solid foundation with consolidated genes. He himself might not have the best front legs, so if my mare needs help with front leg conformation, then I am totally off base. The assumption of each stallion has bred to an even sample of the entire mare base doesn't seem to be valid.

Unless, of course, this offspring evaluation score is computed with the mares' data, just not explained here. If that is the case, then we can view the index as "prepotency" scale, and I'll feel much better using it without really assessing the stallion and at least some of his sample foals and their dams visually.