help with stallion owner who won't refund on live foal guarantee

[misstimi]

Last year 2007, I bred my mare to a hanoverian stallion in canada with a live foal guarantee. My mare did not take and I sent the vet certificate stating this. After a year and several calls and emails, in the summer of 2008 I finally received a cheque for 1/2 my breeding fee. The cheque just bounced:cry:. I am so discouraged and really need advice.
thanks!

[europa]

I learned this lesson the hard way also. I have discussed this issue before concerning the owners of Goldschlager. NOT GOOD. I am only naming the name so that people clearly know and others in Canada do not think that people are considering them as a culprit. I am sure that it is like every where else ....there are good horse people and then there are the deadbeats.

[M. O'Connor]

Last year 2007, I bred my mare to a hanoverian stallion in canada with a live foal guarantee. My mare did not take and I sent the vet certificate stating this. After a year and several calls and emails, in the summer of 2008 I finally received a cheque for 1/2 my breeding fee. The cheque just bounced:cry:. I am so discouraged and really need advice.
thanks!

When you say the check "just" bounced...do you mean it JUST bounced? As in recently?

Or that it just bounced as in "merely."

When did you deposit it? Summer was a long time ago.

[misstimi]

yeah, it just bounced. super strange, I deposited it in august, and just got it back last night. I am calling my bank as soon as it opens to see why it took so long.

[misstimi]

so you had the same problem with goldschlager? did you ever get a refund?
I was breeding to Raffaello , synergy sport horses. They also stand Cotopaxi.
I sent them the breeding fee even before I received any semen. I stood up to my side of the deal... I don't understand how "professionals" would not stand up to theirs.

[europa]

Nope no refund. NOTHING. Makes me sick to think of it really. I signed a contract for fresh chilled and after I paid the money then she tells me the stallion can't be collected due to a back injury and so here is you frozen (which had a very bad motility rate when tested). CRAZY

I tried on 3 separate mares for 3 years....talk about throwing money down the toilet. It was my first and MOST valuable learning experience in Breeding 101.

Those are really nice stallions though....that surprises me. Perhaps someone on this forum can help you or put a birdy in their ear. Good luck. Keep us posted.

[sporthorsefilly]

This is a slight deviation from the OPs problem, and I appologize for that.

In the TB world, the stud fee is often paid when the foal stands and nurses, and I know of one WB breeder who does that with her stallion. What I have heard from some Stallion Owners is that they might never see their stud fee paid, if they chose that route, as the person might just decide they do not need papers, and poof, they are gone! Contracts might help.

I think it is terribly sad when either your mare fails to conceive or carry or God forbid you lose the foal at birth and the stallion owner feels no obligation.

In 2006, I bred my mare to a stallion in Canada, $500 to the auction organization and another $500+ to the stallion owner. The mare didn't carry past the 4th month. When I was told it would cost another $500+ and that the Stallion Owner would feel terrible if the mare failed to carry... I decided to take the loss and go with another stallion. My decision.

It is important to talk with others who have worked with a persepective stallion owner previously before making your selection. That way you know what to expect.

The Majority or stallion owners do NOT refund breeding fees. But some will allow you to rebreed the mare for the collection fee or something like that. Some really put a limit on the time allowed for the rebreeding too. Recently, when I was to accept a "free" rebreeding and realized that the foal would be born in July, I opted to wait until Spring, for the health and well being of the foal...guess what? The rebreeding would now cost nearly what I had orginally paid...so be aware and approach with eyes WIDE OPEN.

[misstimi]

that is helpful info. I was under the impression that a guarantee meant a refund if no foal. I will be sure to talk with next stallion owner/manager to have an understanding first. I was just so excited to breed my fab mare to a lovely hanoverian, I guess I did not ask enough questions.

[not again]

In my experience auctions breedings are very complicated and have the potential to turn in to a lose/lose situation. In retrospect as both a stallion owner and more importantly a mare owner things can go south. The only ones who seem to reliably make out financially are the auction organizers.

[sid]

Did you not have a breeding contract or was all of your business done verbally?

Typically, a LFG does not mean your stallion service fee is refunded (unless the stallion dies), but that that the mare may be rebred the following year or years, depending upon the term of the LFG, if she does not conceive, aborts or the foal fails to stand and nurse.

[Dalemma]

Well it has always been my understanding that a live foal gaurentee meant if you could not get your mare in foal or if she did not carry a foal to term for a live birth then you had the option of rebreeding that mare or a different mare....I have not seen an actual refund of monies.

Dalemma

[SportNCurls]

Well... absolutely I understand your frustration. You should not have waited so long, perhaps they didn't have the funds at the time or are procrastinators, or ????... if you advertise LFG you *should* be able to honor it in a timely manner.. ......

BUT

I would check FIRST that it isn't a bank error. Esp. with the time frame... funds should have cleared long ago that IS weird...maybe give the stallion a call and heads up there is an issue.... they can check with their bank from their end.

I dealt with a bank error in regards to my feed bill! The bank coded in the wrong amount! It was completely totally and undeniably their error, but guess what ??!!! they made us (the feed mill and I) wait 2 MONTHS before they corrected it. I was livid because from my viewpoint IF I'd had insufficient funds or made an error on MY end they'd charged me bank fees so fast my head would spin. Thankfully the feed mill knew me well enough and were Very understanding.

[ASBJumper]

I am so sorry you had a bad experience. But unfortunately, LFG's are not a "guarantee you get a foal or your money back", they are a "guarantee we'll keep sending you semen until you get a foal", and even then, they usually have a time limit associated with them - usually 2 or 3 years. You must read your contract very, very carefully.

I have had nothing but wonderful experiences with the owners of the two stallions I've bred to. I can't divulge exactly what the last one did, but she went above and beyond and bent over backwards to help me get my dream foal on the ground. She made many concessions and compromises. I can't say enough good things about her, and I know sporthorsefilly will agree with me 100% - Saret Tola, of Jump Start Farm, is a wonderful person and an excellent, knowledgeable horsewoman.
And her stallions are TO-DIE-FOR... :eek: :D

So please don't let this one bad experience ruin your breeding plans... there are plenty of fantastic stallion owners out there.

[Amoroso]

Again, I'm going to agree with many on here. I've actually never seen a stallion contract with a LFG that allows a refund if the mare isn't bred. The only kind I've seen (and I'm from Canada) allow for a repeat breeding the following year (collection fee applicable) to the same mare or an alternate mare. After two years, you are generally S.O.L. Is it possible that the stallion owner is being difficult because you are asking for something that is not normally given?

Additionally, a few people have made comments about sending breeding fees in advance. Generally that is how it is done folks, nothing out of the ordinary about that. However, ENSURE that you receive your copy of the signed breeding contract back BEFORE you send the money. This way you are in a written, binding agreement with the owner of the stallion! Should a situation arise where you are shafted out of the breeding, you have a method of recourse (should you choose to take it).

Lastly, I think it is REALLY unprofessional to be naming this stallion owner on a public forum before you have given them the opportunity to find out what happened with your refund. I work at a large national bank, and I'm telling you that things happen and mistakes are often made. As previously mentioned, it could simply be a banking error - or perhaps your bank did not enter the funds as Canadian which would automatically cause the funds to bounce at the clearing house. For those who question the length of time, clearing out of country funds can take 30-60 days. If the funds can't be verified, it takes time for the clearing house to send the notification back to the financial institution.

[Kyzteke]

Every contract is different, that's why it's important to read them before signing or sending money. Just like you would read any other contract.

I have requested ahead of time to make changes in the contract, and if the SO agrees we write in the changes and both parties initial them. While a complete refund from the SO in case of no LF is rare, I've seen it once. I think Hilltop offers a complete refund (minus the booking fee) if you mare does not conceive in 2 years.

Most others simply offer a rebreed, often with a re-payment of a booking fee.

Read the contract.

[europa]

Mine was not a banking error she is just a person NOT to do business with and I will tell everyone I meet the same story in hopes that they WILL NOT do business with Analise. Sorry, but she was awful and disrespectful to me the WHOLE time I was desperately trying to get my MARES pregnant. I could not treat people that way and lay my head down on the pillow at night. She never offered me any money back when the issue was the stallion. In a situation like that she should have said he is at the end of his career, the semen is not the best, here is your money. Even part would have been nice. And she was less then forthcoming about the semen not being fresh. I would not have done business to begin with had I known I was dealing in frozen.

Sour grapes....you betcha.

Going to the forum for help is never a bad thing.

[Hi Jump]

This is Lisa Paulson writing, manager of Synergy Sporthorses and the stallions Raffaello and Cotopaxi. In light of this mareowner purposely posting such a detrimental post and since she too derives her income from the horse industry I would like to make it clear she called me Wednesday (yesterday) telling me the refund cheque I sent did not clear her bank. I inquired about the bank holding it for a number of months . I had received her letter June 16th from her vet stating her mare did not conceive from the semen she received. During the phone call Wednesday I then offered to mail out another cheque this week. Please read the emails of this day Thursday to have a more accurate assessment of this post!
Lisa Paulson
Synergy Sporthorses
http://www.synergysporthorses.net

Lisa,
I woke up in the middle of the night from stress re: the breeding refund. You seem like such a nice person, yet I don't understand why there is such a problem refunding my breeding fee on a lfg. I don't understand why I am only getting 1/2 the fee back, and then adding insult to injury, it has been well over a year and you can't seem to even refund 1/2. How is that a live foal guarantee?
I am looking into what can be done legally on my behalf to get my refund, and if the new cheque does not arrive asap and clear, I will have to warn other horse breeders about the difficulties I have experienced with your breeding program.

Please remedy the situation,


Hello (mareowner) ,
According to your contract there is no refund , you had the right to return for an additional year to breed with another mare and you had already requested and received semen and used it to inseminate your mare as per the contract when you then requested a full refund. It was an act of generousity , you actually stated you were under preasure of medical bills from (removed for privacy of mareowner) and asked for some reimbursement, that I chose to rally approval for a partial refund and you write a threat to assasinate my character. The contract clearly stated that a letter from your veterinarian was required and it was received June 16, 2008 in the middle of a 6 week tour of shows at the height of breeding season. It was nothing of my doing that your bank has apparently held the check issued to you for months, thus it not clearing . I believe the stress of your medical problems have perhaps influenced your behaviour and thought writing this. This action you threaten reflects moreso on yourself, perhaps you should give that some thought.
Lisa Paulson



From Mareowner:

Lisa,As a professional, I have just never taken so long to fulfill an obligation for a refund, whether out of generosity or not, and it is just perplexing. It took several emails and phone calls over several months before you asked me for the vet letter and then more emails and phone calls to get the cheque, and then it bounced. What would you think if you were on the other side of this?

--- On Thu, 10/23/08,
:

From: Mareownner
Subject: and
To: "L. Paulson" <synergysporthorses@yahoo.ca>
Received: Thursday, October 23, 2008, 11:18 AM

I guess I did not realize that you were doing me a favor with the partial refund as I thought it was part of the lfg to be refunded if no foal. So the lfg contract is just a breeding the next season? I did not realize this and that is why I was so upset. Sorry for the misunderstanding.



Hello (mareowner),
Yes, all the terms are very clear in the contract, the stipulation of the vet letter requirement , the fact that the live foal guarantee allows the substitution of another mare and extension of the contract for an additional year. You have those options and at the time we discused it on the phone it sounded like a partial refund was more advantageous to you , that you would not be able to use the breeding.

I will issue another cheque this week . Hopefully then we will be on good terms.

Lisa Paulson
Synergy Sporthorses

[Hi Jump]

I hope that clears up the impression that the poster made that she had been slighted or handled unprofessionally when in fact she had requested a full return of her stud fee after having used the shipped semen on her part hanoverian mare and I was making an exception to give her a partial refund when in fact NONE was due. I am shocked that she decided to slander my professionalism on this public forum and the reputation of my business standing Raffaello after she had been assured she would in fact receive a replacement cheque for the first one . I respected her professional and public name in the horse industry by removing it from the emails.

Lisa Paulson
Synergy Sporthorses

[europa]

And to lighten the mood I love both of your boys!!

[Amoroso]

Interesting. This was my hunch....

To the OP, you are getting funds back from this stallion that you are not ENTITLED to!! The contract calls for a re-breed, not a refund (according to the stallion owner's post and my experience with every other stallion owner I've dealt with). The fact that you are getting anything goes to show that the breeding farm is trying to go out of their way to help you.

[Kyzteke]

Again -- READ THE CONTRACT.

I once considered a stallion that I liked very much. But in the contract it stated the SO had the right to substitute frozen for chilled at her discretion.

I knew the mare I was using was NOT a good candidate for frozen + all the additional vet/storage/shipping fees I knew I would be paying. So I asked that this part of the contract be changed. SO refused. At that point I had sent in a booking fee, but no stud fee.

I asked for a refund and said I would not go forward in breeding to that stallion. SO whined alittle, but she returned the booking fee.

Some SOs (and MOs, apparently) don't think the contract is that important, but it's there for a reason. Discuss issues before hand.

Sorry OP, but I think you just weren't paying attention. SO was being generous to refund ANY portion of the stud fee.

[goodmorning]

I am not sure if you are in Canada as they will have different banking regulations - however I am aware of several banking regulations in the US. First off, it is against the law to hold a check for that amount of time - they MUST make an attemp to collect & distribute the funds to you within 7 business days (could even be 5). So not sure how they could even hold it so long?

And on either end they could also send back the check for stale dating....

I'd be angry with that bank. And thankful that you got a check at all.

[tri]

I've lost thousands in unrefunded stud fees when I had a two different mares with problems. All were LFG. One stallion owner unilaterially changed me to frozen in the 2nd year as the stallion became unavailable and trying to breed a problem mare with frozen back several years ago when it was even harder to find a good frozen semen vet made the situation a lost cause. That particular stud fee was over $3500 just by itself.

But I never expected a refund because the contracts with the two different stallion owners didn't have a clause for a refund. I'm mad about the switch to frozen however.

Sounds like there was a legit cause for the check issue meaning it doesn't sound like the check just bounced because the SO is a deadbeat. Sounds like a banking issue/error and in light of what has been going on in our financial industries, not really surprizing, I guess.

[Hampton Bay]

I bred my mare in 2007, and my contract clearly stated that the live foal guarantee meant that if there was no foal, or the foal died before nursing, that I would be able to re-breed my mare (alternate mare only on approval from the SO) the following year. There would be no refund of stud fee.

I think it is generous for a SO to refund any of the money when you only tried once to inseminate your mare and she did not take. Posting the SO's name on a public board is just plain in poor taste.

[clint]

I bred my mare in 2007, and my contract clearly stated that the live foal guarantee meant that if there was no foal, or the foal died before nursing, that I would be able to re-breed my mare (alternate mare only on approval from the SO) the following year. There would be no refund of stud fee.

I think it is generous for a SO to refund any of the money when you only tried once to inseminate your mare and she did not take. Posting the SO's name on a public board is just plain in poor taste.

I completely agree with this. Further, I have bred twice to Raffaello, once with an auction breeding and once with a regular contract. My mare has had a terrible time for several years, twinning, so my contract, technically, is null and void, for over a year now. Lisa has generously agreed to extend that contract for yet another year while I try again. Frankly, since no refund of studfees has ever been in any stallion owner's contract without the stallion being dead, I wouldn't dream of asking for a refund of fees. As far as I'm concerned, Synergy Sporthorses went way beyond what is required for me, and for the OP.

[TrueColours]

Oh man - talk about unfair to Lisa here ... :(

I, too, as a Stallion Owner, offer a 2 year clause on my breeding contract which stipulates that the Mare Owner has 2 years to get a Live Foal on the ground but there is NEVER any refund of breeding fees paid unless the stallion dies or becomes unfit for breeding which is hardly the Mare Owners fault. In that case I keep the booking fee and refund the stud fees paid

Having said all of that, I have had Mare Owners try for 3 and 4 years to get their mares in foal with stallions that I owned before and I am perfectly okay with that even though my contract states 2 years only. I also allow Mare owners to sell their stud fee to try and help them out as much as I possibly can and even though the contract that they signed states a new booking fee must be paid I waive that - again - to make it as easy and user friendly as I possibly can for them

Lisa has gone above and beyond what she is contractually obligated to do, IMO and is being a decent and caring Stallion Owner who is now refunding money out of her own pocket to try and make a Mare Owner as happy as possible

Most Stallion Owners bend over backwards for their clients. AT the end of the day, it is in their best interest to get as many foals as possible on the ground and they will do their damndest to accomplish that goal AND to make the Mare Owners happy with dealing with them

[Lesley Feakins]

This seems like the original poster didn't read or didn't understand the LFG clause and as has been pointed out now, that unless written in the contact, LFG does not mean money back.

We have a LFG in our contact also for a period of 2 years. We have on many occasions extended the period for 3 or 4 years, allowed the mare owner to switch mares, allowed the mare owner to switch stallions and even allowed the mare owner to sell the breeding on.
I believe most SO want to do everything and anything to keep their customer happy and to do their part in getting a live and healthy foal on the ground for them.

Synergy Sporthorses, I think were very generous in refunding part of the stud fee. I'm sure they would have preferred that you tried again in the following cycle or season to breed your mare, have her safely in foal and produce a foal for you.

If this is a simple misunderstanding of the contract as it seems, maybe an apology?

[Fairview Horse Center]

It sounds like this stallion owner went above and beyond to make the mare owner happy by agreeing to a partial refund.

My contract states on the first line:
Live foal guarantee is for return service only - stud fee is not refundable.

In ads I run, I use the line: Stud fee $500. LFGR

I wanted to try to make it as clear as possible, so new breeders would not be confused. We do offer 3 years, switching mares, and the mare owner can sell the contract. I have extended the 3 years several times to assist a mare owner to get a foal.

[rubles]

A few years ago we attempted to breed our mare to a stallion using cooled semen. Everything paid in full with a LFG. Unfortunately the mare did not settle. SO wanted mare recycled and bred again--the foal would be born in November in Ontario. We preferred to wait to the following spring and did. When we again tried we had to jump through hoops and I remember hanging up from one phone call "screaming I can't stand any more of this".
My experience with this SO was so emotionally draining we bought a couple of weanlings. I would NEVER attempt to breed a more again based on this experience.
All I can say is beware, beware, beware. And if a deal can't be honoured with the shake of a hand then a signed contract is useless.
My previous successful breeding experiences took place with live cover. Three mares bred, sent home in foal, three healthy, live foals. Not one mare had to be rebred. All done with good intent and a handshake.

[clint]

A few years ago we attempted to breed our mare to a stallion using cooled semen. Everything paid in full with a LFG. Unfortunately the mare did not settle. SO wanted mare recycled and bred again--the foal would be born in November in Ontario. We preferred to wait to the following spring and did. When we again tried we had to jump through hoops and I remember hanging up from one phone call "screaming I can't stand any more of this".
My experience with this SO was so emotionally draining we bought a couple of weanlings. I would NEVER attempt to breed a more again based on this experience.
All I can say is beware, beware, beware. And if a deal can't be honoured with the shake of a hand then a signed contract is useless.
My previous successful breeding experiences took place with live cover. Three mares bred, sent home in foal, three healthy, live foals. Not one mare had to be rebred. All done with good intent and a handshake.

If the stallion owner were Lisa, I would be more than happy to seal the deal with her with a handshake. She is a stallion owner who goes the distance for a mare owner.

I'm not quite sure if what you are trying to say is that live cover is superior to AI; if so, that is probably a subject for a new topic.

[crosscountry101]

I have been following this thread and note that 1,252 people have viewed this topic. This could have been extremely damaging to Lisa in the manner that this was done, especially as Lisa had already emailed MO to indicate that she would pop another cheque in the mail! Misunderstanding or not, was this necessary???
I know both the MO, as I arranged the purchase of her Hanoverian/Morgan mare and Lisa as I have bred to both Cotopaxi and Raffaello 6 times!! Lisa has always gone the extra to ensure that the semen is delivered in the most timely manner! Our vets up here can't say enough good about her professionalism as she makes their job easier! And I had to euthanize one of my LIVE FOALS and Lisa offered me a BREED BACK!! as she was as upset as I was at my loss!
It is gratifying that this did not get out of hand in the support given by what appear to be knowledgable and realistic horse owners, but I think an apology from MO would have been in order. Again, I have to question motive here......especially in naming the SO & her 'boys'......

[TrueColours]

crosscountry - I hope that this thread has actually HELPED Lisa in 1,252 ways :) and I dont believe it has hurt her in any way shape or form, thank goodness ...

I have never met her in person, but have enjoyed some wonderful email exchanges with her and find her to be a knowledgeable and intelligent lady to converse with and use as a sounding board on different issues that arise

An apology from the OP would be a nice touch, I agree ... :)

[FriesianX]

As both a MO and SO, I'll also agree with the general consensus here - LFG means re-breeding rights, not money back! And rebreeding rights means the MO continues to pay collection and shipping - and in some cases, may need to present a vet's report of reproductive health (i.e. clean C & C). And for many stallion owners, it means only re-breeding to the SAME mare. I found this out the hard way after a mare of mine would not take (maiden mare), spent a fortune in repro, and the stallion owner would only transfer the breeding to a different mare with an additional $500 "booking" fee.

I've also run into a situation with a stallion owner whose stallion was injured during breeding season - she didn't TELL me what happened, she just kept switching the collection schedule on me (another year where I spent a lot of money for nothing) and finally admitted the stallion really couldn't collect regularly anymore. Another lost stud fee - she was willing to give it a retry the next year, but at that point, I wasn't (I'd spent $1500 just on COLLECTION fees with her in that year - and kept getting non-motile semen).

On the plus side, most of my dealings with SOs have been quite positive - can I put a plug in for Liz at Silverwood and Gina at Centaur Farms? And as a SO myself, I"ve learned a lot about what doesn't seem reasonable to a MO from my own experiences, so I'm pretty flexible myself! Wanna switch mares? OK with me! Need three years? OK too.

ETA - I think it was VERY generous of the SO to offer any money back.

[98neigh]

Well, I just had to chime in here and agree with all the posters who are championing Lisa Paulson. I bred a mare to Raffaello in 2006 and she was a joy to work with. I posted then on a Fed Ex thread about my experience. I was tracking the shipment and all looked well to me, when Lisa called me because she noticed all was not well.

Fed Ex misplaced the container (thanks Lisa for using the Equitainer instead of disposable) and instead of arriving at my farm in Florida by 11 AM, I was at the Tampa Fed Ex depot picking it up at 11 PM, bringing the mare to the vet clinic at midnight to be bred, semen was excellent. Lisa spent all day calling Fed Ex and bugging them about the shipment, calling and e-mailing me with updates (I was calling them too, most everytime I called, they said Lisa had already called).

Colt born 11 months later, and I am sorry the OP didn't get her Raffaello because mine is great (he'll tell you that himself) and I'm sure hers would be also. By the way Lisa, if you're reading this, he is turning grey.

Live Foal Guarentee does not mean you get your $$ back. OP maybe you're having money problems yourself, but you do owe Lisa an apology.

Stephanie Morse
Florida, USA

[Hi Jump]

I would like to thank people for their support now, and over the years, it is a pleasure to work with these stallions, and equally rewarding to work with mareowners . Breeders tend to be passionate and give so much of themselves to breed. There truly is a sense of satisfaction seeing the fruition of the endeavour, the joy of a foal and in time the excitement as they meet performance expectations. I appreciate this.
Integrity is very important to me, and I would like to make a point with this post that it was the integrity of another breeder, one I do not know personally, have never worked with, but a person that had the thoughtfulness and took the time and effort to locate me and tell me that there was a potentially detrimental thread posted.
That is integrity.

Thank you,
Lisa Paulson
Synergy Sporthorses
http://www.synergysporthorses.net

[clint]

Lisa, you are without a doubt a stallion owner who has never shown anything but integrity. I'm so sorry that you were the object of this thread, which never should have been started. The OP owes you an apology.

[ilikridn]

I'm new here, but my gut reaction when the OP named the stallion was "Oh, my gosh!! I can't believe she just did that!"

I'm glad I read on and found out the entire story... seems the OP left out a few important details in the beginning of this thread.

I am a MO and I've been dealing with a lot of bad breeding luck lately. I am currently in the process of buying my 3rd broodmare so that I can get my breeding done, as the original broodmare colicked and foundered and the 2nd one I got (who I was told by my original vet "oh sure, she is breeding sound... cha-ching, cha-ching!!) is apparently NOT breeding sound and didn't take. The SO owner I've been dealing with is working with me through all of this and has been very supportive and encouraging. Thank goodness!

I've heard some remarkable stories here about some great SOs who are going above and beyond to help us mare owners get those babies that can be somewhat alluding at times. THANK YOU, SOs!!! :yes:

[Tiki]

Good grief, OP. Apologize already!!! You had a nerve to post names when you had been offered a 1/2 refund - which is way beyond what any contract I've ever seen in about 15 years of breeding said. You should ALWAYS read the contract. I've read many I didn't like and just crossed that stallion off my list, but LFG means return breeding NOT return of money.

Why on earth didn't you read the contract. If you really didn't know what an LFG meant, why did you make an assumption? I agree with everyone else. I've NEVER heard of getting your money back if you didn't get a foal first time around.

Cotopaxi has been on my list for a while - maybe for my gorgeous Irish Sport Horse Mare - he's now on my short list after all the recommendations here from other breeders.

[crosscountry101]

This to Tiki!! You should see my 2004 Cotopaxi! He is magnificent (I am not just barn blind, he is currently in a top training/sales facility & I am told he is 'the most talented horse she has ever sat on...'. I am hoping to keep him long enough to see him in the big ring!
I bred another mare back to him & have a 2008 colt that is beautiful, exquisite head & neck.....you won't be disappointed.

[Home Again Farm]

I have not bred to Raffaello (yet ;)), but have a close friend who has, and all I have ever heard about Synergy Sporthorses has been extremely positive. Even back when I bred my very first mare, I knew to read the breeding contract. Since then I have bred many mares and I have never heard of a stallion owner returning any portion of a studfee under the circumstances described by misstimi (who seems to have vanished without correcting her post and apologizing profusely- which is really the only right thing to do here). :no:

[Tiki]

Ooooooooooohhhhhhhhh Croscountry101 - what did you use for a mare? can you email me photos of mare and foal? sokeefe at tranquilityfarm.com with the usual way of doing the at sign for emails. I LOVE that stallion. My Irish mare is double King of Diamonds on top and Bold Ruler/Princequillo/Native Dancer on the bottom. She had the MOST incredible filly by Iron Spring's Consul this year. The filly is to die for. She's on the Previews page of my website. She's now registered Dutch as "Due Process" as the ISH registered in Ireland is an acknowledged studbook with the Dutch. The mare is also MMB with OLNA and earned her Star Award for the Mare Performance Test.

[Foxtrot's]

Synergy Sporthorses is a local breeder and well known. She has an impeccable reputation
and very nice horses. 'Nuff said.

[gortmore]

I have to say I am extremely disappointed that this mare owner acted so unprofessionally. An apology is owed to Lisa as this thread could have damaged her reputation. Lisa is extremely generous and it shows in refunding 1/2 the stud fee. Heck the mare was only bred once, not even like there was years of trying.

Lisa has helped me out when I have needed it. Last year I was traveling for work. I had a mare owner call for a collection. Lisa went to my farm, picked up my stallion, shipped him to the vet clinic to get collected, took him home and then arranged for the shipment to get to New York. Now this is a generous person and someone that I am proud to call a friend. This year I was working when my mare was due to foal. Lisa stopped by every day to check on my mare for me. I don't know many people that would do this for me and for her to do what she did with my stallion for me says a ton about her character and integrity.

I think the OP should post a public apology to Lisa/Synergy/Hi Jump.

[Amoroso]

I have to say I am extremely disappointed that this mare owner acted so unprofessionally. An apology is owed to Lisa as this thread could have damaged her reputation. Lisa is extremely generous and it shows in refunding 1/2 the stud fee. Heck the mare was only bred once, not even like there was years of trying.

Lisa has helped me out when I have needed it. Last year I was traveling for work. I had a mare owner call for a collection. Lisa went to my farm, picked up my stallion, shipped him to the vet clinic to get collected, took him home and then arranged for the shipment to get to New York. Now this is a generous person and someone that I am proud to call a friend. This year I was working when my mare was due to foal. Lisa stopped by every day to check on my mare for me. I don't know many people that would do this for me and for her to do what she did with my stallion for me says a ton about her character and integrity.

I think the OP should post a public apology to Lisa/Synergy/Hi Jump.


This is exactly why I notified Lisa about the thread. I've never had the pleasure of doing business with her myself (yet), but as a fellow breeder I couldn't just sit back and watch this. I looked up her website and sent her a courtesy e-mail so that she had the chance to tell her side of the story. It is really unfortunate that the MO decided to take the course of action she did, but I hope this will turn out to be a positive for Lisa down the road. The abilities of her stallions speak for themselves! Additionally, Synergy has a great reputation in the greater Vancouver area.

Martina - Apex Warmbloods, AB

[Bellfleur]

How totally unfair to the Stallion owner for this OP to come on here and say this type of thing.

The only good news is that it got me to look at her website and what beautiful stallions!! I personally have never heard of a stallion owner giving the stud fee back on a LFG. Live foal guarantee means just that you get a live foal. How does that equate into money back?

I am getting out of breeding or I would certainly be signing up my Dresden Hit mare (pic below) to breed to Raffaello.

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2681696540104256696DduQMM

[Ladybug Hill]

I too went to Lisa's website to see if her stallions would be good matches for my mares. All in all maybe this is actually good advertising for her. Sounds like a great gal!

[YankeeLawyer]

Again, I'm going to agree with many on here. I've actually never seen a stallion contract with a LFG that allows a refund if the mare isn't bred. The only kind I've seen (and I'm from Canada) allow for a repeat breeding the following year (collection fee applicable) to the same mare or an alternate mare. After two years, you are generally S.O.L. .

I have not read through this whole thread but fyi I know of at least one major breeding operation in the U.S. that does have an LFG or 1/2 refund clause in its contract. I have also seen similar contracts in Germany.

Apparently in this case the breeding contract offered LFG only, however.

[clint]

I have not read through this whole thread but fyi I know of at least one major breeding operation in the U.S. that does have an LFG or 1/2 refund clause in its contract. I have also seen similar contracts in Germany.

Apparently in this case the breeding contract offered LFG only, however.

Yet Lisa refunded the money anyway.:yes:

What major US breeding operation refunds 1/2 the stud fee?

[Hi Jump]

To be clear, the medical circumstances for the mareowner suggested they really needed a refund despite it not being a contractual option, were what prompted me to send them a cheque . But they asked for full refund despite having already commencing using the service of the stallion. This person says here she doesn't know why she never got a full refund, yet our contract is extensive and clearly worded, and during discussion when she requested the refund , it was clearly explained why I would issue a refund of half the fee and not the full fee. I am sending the OP a replacement cheque, after checking my bank to make sure the first did not clear. I believe the matter has been taken care of in a reasonable and decent fashion on my behalf.

Thank you for all the kind words about our stallions, and the support, as I say, now and over the years. Those who know me know I work tremendously hard to accomodate my breeding clients, operate a farm and see the stallions are shown extensively and successfully in multiple facets of sport to show their versatility and ability and help promote their offspring. I am very empathetic with the needs of my breeders being a small breeder myself . I would like to mention after another extensive and successful showing and breeding season, I will be updating the website next week after stallion service reports are completed, so anyone can see this years production of foals, what offspring are begining to show in ability as they mature, the stallions performance etc. Thank you for taking the time to consider all aspects of this situation beyond the statements of the opening post of the thread. Many thanks again for the kind words of support and to Martina of Apex Warmbloods who had the integrity and initiative to let me know of this post, despite not knowing me, so I could have an opportunity to address how my stallions and business were being discussed in the opening statements of this poster.

Lisa Paulson
Synergy Sporthorses, home of Cotopaxi and Raffaello
http://www.synergysporthorses.net

[sfstable]

I too went to Lisa's website to see if her stallions would be good matches for my mares. All in all maybe this is actually good advertising for her. Sounds like a great gal!

I agree. I think this is actually a postive thread for her. I too went to the website to check out her stallions. Sounds like she is great to work with.:)

[okggo]

I think the OP should post a public apology to Lisa/Synergy/Hi Jump.

I agree with that 150%! When I first read the OP, I thought that was odd they offered a monetary refund. Any LFG I've seen offers a re-breed to the stallion with no new stud fee (MO still pays collection fees, etc). As much of a crap shoot as breeding is, a LFG that offers a full refund seems like it would be a nightmare to manage. This SO went far beyond what she should have done, and I agree the OP owes her an apology (since she named the stallions name, it's the least she could do).

[Hi Jump]

Further to this saga,

Contacting my bank I found out today that the cheque never was put through their system, it did not BOUNCE as she stated because there was no attempt to redeem it through my bank.
I am infuriated to say the least with the blatant disregard this mareowner behaved with on this forum. Her actions are inexcusable.

Let this publically stand as my response since I feel this has been manipulated and an example of how the forum can be misused.

Lisa Paulson
Synergy Sporthorses
http://www.synergysporthorses.net

[goodmorning]

How terrible.

Like I said ealier, it is entirely possible that *her* bank sent the check back, for a variety of reasons. It is very likely that her bank would not deposit the funds due to stale fating, among other things.


Very sad to see someone manipulate a very nice SO.

[Tiki]

Well, since the OP hasn't come back to apologize, I certainly hope she's read all these posts and is at least off somewhere hanging her head in shame.

[clint]

It is troubling that someone who clearly has some sort of agenda can manipulate a popular BB in an attempt to harm someone's business. Fortunately it wasn't successful, and with any luck, had the reverse effect.

[crosscountry101]

I believe Stale dating is after 6 months, which would be December in this case......and if there was a problem with the cheque (ie. figures don't match, forgotten signature, no date.....) her bank would have notified her for sure.
Knowing the identity of MO just makes me itch wanting to POST IT but I will not stoop to that level.....

[europa]

I admit when I heard the stallions in question I was skeptical. She owes you an apology but since she was soo quick to point this out on the forum as opposed to talking to you directly one has to wonder.

[Hi Jump]

Equibrit:
I have an extensive 5 page contract and these clauses below pertain. Every single other instance has received unlimited support in extension to rebreed and/or change mares, this is the first 'complaint' I have had in over 6 years standing stallions. In addition there was verbal discussion when she requested the refund , having received semen, I was clear I would entertain a partial refund ONLY, in accordance with the contract requiring a written verification from her vet stating the mare
did not conceive. To be clear also, she received a VALID refund cheque of half the fee despite all she implied.

...
16. Unavailability of Stallion or Mare. If the stallion dies, becomes unfit for service, or is sold before the Mare is serviced and settles, Synergy may, in its sole discretion, use that Stallion's frozen semen. Five straws will be deemed one breeding dose. Should frozen semen not be available Synergy may offer any other stallion in their management for substitution. If the mare dies or becomes unfit for service after being serviced, the stud fee shall not be refunded or adjusted. In its sole discretion, Synergy may permit the Mare Owner to substitute another mare.

17. Death of Foal. If the Mare bred fails to produce a foal that stands and nurses within twenty-four (24) hours of birth, and such foal subsequently dies, the Mare Owner may return the mare for re-service by the same stallion provided Synergy is notified within forty-eight (48) hours of the death of the foal. Within ten (10) days of the foal’s death, Mare Owner must provide Synergy with an official written statement of the details of death prepared by a certified veterinarian. If such notification and statement are not received within ten (10) days, the return privilege referenced herein becomes null and void.

18. Live Foal Guarantee If the mare fails to conceive or produce a live foal the contract allows for a one year extension to breed. Substitution of another mare may be permitted at the discretion of Synergy Sport Horses.

19. Liability. The parties agree the Mare Owner shall assume all responsibility for the condition of the Mare and shall bear all risk of loss or damage to the Mare whether by death, disease, injury, infection, or otherwise, and by any cause whatsoever, and therefore agrees to hold Synergy or any person employed by or associated with Synergy, harmless for any and all damages associated therewith.

[AdAblurr02]

I am VERY glad to know the actual events that transpired in this situation. This is exactly the kind of situation that the attorney who drew up our stallion's breeding contract warned me about, when she said that you NEVER use the word "guarantee" in this context. There are no guarantees where a horse is concerned, especially in breeding.

Huge respectful kudos to Lisa for being one of the good guys in this business - and thanks to Gortmore for putting in her two cents, that is an extra validation. It's great there are actually so many decent and big hearted people in the horse world to offset those other few.

[Equibrit]

I am positive that terms were spelled out correctly in your contract. I have consigned the OP to the clueless retard heap ( http://www.artchive.com/artchive/b/bosch/judge_c.jpg ), based on her inability to read and understand it.

[Foxtrot's]

You know what they say, judging from the responses - no such thing as bad publicity - or - all publicity is a good thing, negative or positive - so good luck :) :) :)

[Hi Jump]

Foxtrot, I do understand that premise, but honestly, had I not been alerted to this by someone else, I feel the reprecussions of people's perception questioning how I supposedly handled a breeder could have been really detrimental. The stallions have good reputations but who has the funds to risk a problematic level of service?
I feel this is resolved in that the situation is now clear for all to see after the initial posts.

Lisa Paulson
Synergy Sporthorses, home to Holstein Cotopaxi and Hanoverian Raffaello
http://www.synergysporthorses.net

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=Hi Jump;3609013]Further to this saga,

Contacting my bank I found out today that the cheque never was put through their system, it did not BOUNCE as she stated because there was no attempt to redeem it through my bank.


now that's just damned dirty pool right there.....

[Foxtrot's]

Sure - good thing you had your turn to speak.

[98neigh]

I don't know what causes people to think they can start something like this up just because it's the internet. Publicly posting Lisa's stallion's name etc, jeeze.

I'm glad Lisa had the chance to clear this up.

[misstimi]

I hear all of you defending synergy, and think that is very nice of you. However, you seem to have missed that she had offered me the 1/2 stud fee refund almost a year ago and said she would send a cheque. Several months, phone calls, emails later, she sent a cheque that did not clear. She kindly said she would send another cheque, but it has not come ... In my mind I am just asking someone to hold up their end of the bargain as an honorable business person. So far, there have been honorable words, but no honorable actions and I have been a bit baffled by it.
As for mentioning the name of the stallion, a person who replied to my question asked who the stallion was and I was not aware there is a rule that you can only praise business people in the industry - deserving or not. I thought we were trying to share information here.
I hope it was a bank error and can be remedied, and if it is a bank error, I will most definitely offer my most sincere apologies. but with the long history of "the cheque's in the mail", I am skeptical.

[clint]

I hear all of you defending synergy, and think that is very nice of you. However, you seem to have missed that she had offered me the 1/2 stud fee refund almost a year ago and said she would send a cheque. Several months, phone calls, emails later, she sent a cheque that did not clear. She kindly said she would send another cheque, but it has not come ... In my mind I am just asking someone to hold up their end of the bargain as an honorable business person. So far, there have been honorable words, but no honorable actions and I have been a bit baffled by it.
As for mentioning the name of the stallion, a person who replied to my question asked who the stallion was and I was not aware there is a rule that you can only praise business people in the industry - deserving or not. I thought we were trying to share information here.
I hope it was a bank error and can be remedied, and if it is a bank error, I will most definitely offer my most sincere apologies. but with the long history of "the cheque's in the mail", I am skeptical.

Did you miss all the posts that said that no refund should have come your way in the first place? And according to Lisa, the check wasn't presented to the bank? Puzzling, really.

[misstimi]

Did you miss all the posts that said that no refund should have come your way in the first place? And according to Lisa, the check wasn't presented to the bank? Puzzling, really.
hmmm. well, 1. she did state she would refund 1/2 the fee, and again, i thought that was very good of her and told her so at the time.
2. the cheque (9 months after saying she would send refund) was put through her bank as it is stamped by her bank on the back.
again, really nice of all of you to stand up for her, but weird how much angry jumping to conclusions there were.
If someone gives their word, they should stick by it if possible and not pretend to be an innocent forum slander victim of a psycho mare owner.
I stuck by my word when i told her i would send the breeding fee right away - i fedexed it to her within an hour. I am just asking for the same courtesy from her.
Pretending to be an upstanding, honorable business person is not the same as actually being one.

[Amoroso]

I personally think that you newest comments are simply digging your hole deeper. You have been given something that you did not deserve (refund), and you should now be digging into a big piece of humble pie!

[Tamara in TN]

hmmm. well, 1. she did state she would refund 1/2 the fee, and again, i thought that was very good of her and told her so at the time.

Pretending to be an upstanding, honorable business person is not the same as actually being one.

and let's see you begged,whined, pleaded and poor mouthed yourself into a refund YOU DID NOT DESERVE ??? that is not some one "being good" about anything, that is giving into a cross between extortion and harassment...

and now you are just being malicious....yuck...I think you suck...

[europa]

She has already made it right.....

GO AWAY

Times like this make it really nice to not be a SO.....I feel for you guys!!

[Hampton Bay]

She has already made it right.....

GO AWAY

Times like this make it really nice to not be a SO.....I feel for you guys!!

Makes me really glad I gelded my boy. SO not worth it.

[Fairview Horse Center]

misstimi, why are you trying to cause trouble for this stallion owner? You post, then disappear for weeks, only to pop up again.

OOPS, almost. You did post about your IN FOAL mare.

my mare (16 y.o. maiden) is 5 months along and is starting to look fat. Is that too soon (should I cut back on feed?) or is it normal.

The stallion owner was kind enough to offer a partial refund due to your medical bills, but it seems you bred your mare to another stallion?!?! You chose to not use your paid breeding to Raffaello, to breed her to a different stallion? You didn't need to use that breeding money to pay for your medical bills? I am sorry, but if this was me, I would definitely not refund any money to you, especially not now.

[Equibrit]

hmmm. well, 1. she did state she would refund 1/2 the fee, and again, i thought that was very good of her and told her so at the time. She was doing you a favour and REALLY did not have to.

2. the cheque (9 months after saying she would send refund)Did you send the vet reports in a timely manner was put through her bank as it is stamped by her bank on the back. One of you is "mistaken" and my bet is on you.again, really nice of all of you to stand up for her, but weird how much angry jumping to conclusions there were.
If someone gives their word, they should stick by it if possible and not pretend to be an innocent forum slander victim of a psycho mare owner.
I stuck by my word when i told her i would send the breeding fee right away - i fedexed it to her within an hour. I am just asking for the same courtesy from her.
Pretending to be an upstanding, honorable business person is not the same as actually being one.

She should have told you to go p--s up a rope some time ago. It's not her problem if you either can't or won't take the trouble to read and understand a breeding contract.

[clint]

She should have told you to go p--s up a rope some time ago. It's not her problem if you either can't or won't take the trouble to read and understand a breeding contract

Ditto that.:D:D:D

[Home Again Farm]

Misstimi, you have a lot to learn. :no: Your story does not add up and every post digs you deeper into a hole of no credibility.

[Daventry]

and now you are just being malicious....yuck...I think you suck...


Oh God, lol That was just plain and simple. :lol:

I don't think any of us would hold it over Lisa's head if the second cheque "never made it" to misstimi. After all of this and the defamation of character, and now the possibility that she spend money breeding to another stallion when supposed medical bills need paying. Sucking is an understatement. :(

I'm sorry misstimi if you are truly ill or have suffered some other mishap, but, as others have stated, you needed to read your contract and realize there were no refunds in your circumstance.

[sfstable]

I don't think any of us would hold it over Lisa's head if the second cheque "never made it" to misstimi. After all of this and the defamation of character, and now the possibility that she spend money breeding to another stallion when supposed medical bills need paying. Sucking is an understatement. :(

I'm sorry misstimi if you are truly ill or have suffered some other mishap, but, as others have stated, you needed to read your contract and realize there were no refunds in your circumstance.

Ditto. Read your contract, stop posting about this situation. The stallion owner has no obligation to pay you that money.

[Jessi P]

I believe that the overall effect of this thread has been very positive for Lisa, Synergy Sporthorses and her stallions. I would feel confident doing business with her after reading thru the crap the MO has spewed.

[Hillside H Ranch]

I think Lisa should post the mare owner's real name here so that all other stallion owners can avoid her in the future :)!

[blackstallion2]

I was thinking the same... :no:

I think Lisa should post the mare owner's real name here so that all other stallion owners can avoid her in the future :)!

[JackSprats Mom]

As someone not involved with breeding and therefore not familiar with either MO or SO I can only say this thread has done nothing BUT help Lisa as I would now look at her stallions for a breeding with no hesitation should I decide to breed.

OP- here's the trouble, you're whining about something that you're not entitled to. I understand that she said she would send you a check but its kinda like crying about not getting a big enough birthday present- no on has to GIVE you anything, so if you get something smile and say thank you and if you don't get anything accept it.

[sid]

Indeed, this IS the downside of being an SO-- but it's the really great clients and friends we wind up making over the years, from working hard to make them make happy is what keeps us doing it. Many SO's, like me and others who I only know from perusing this BB, bend the contract rules to help a good client get a baby on the ground -- often to our own financial detriment.

BUT...then you come across someone like this who decided to pursue a handout (violins playing in the background) that violated the very terms of a legal agreement they agreed to.
Sounds like Lisa has a big, huge heart. SO's seldom can provide services to a client face to face -- it's all phone, fax, emails and FedEx. So it's quite easy to get schnookered when you can't look your client in the eye.

A SO cannot force a client to really sit down to read and understand the terms of the breeding contract as much as we take tons of time encouraging it. Some just go blithely into it, then are pissed when the don't get a pregnancy within their budget.

But seeking pity for their ignorance, while simultaneously seeking solace from the breeding community because their "handout" didn't happen they way they wanted it to, reeks of intended malice of a seriously manipulative individual.

I've been following this thread for awhile, but just had to speak up. Casting dispersions to intentionally damage someone else who has gone beyond the line of duty for them (then claim "ignorance") is the all-to-easy cop out we see so much of these days for those who just don't want to take any personal responsibility for their own actions.

As John Stossel would say "gimme a break".

[mazu]

OP, I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish here? I can understand that SO agreeing to send the check would lead you to expect the check to arrive promptly and to be good ... and it's a short leap from there to thinking you deserved the 1/2 refund (which is why it was a bad idea for her to agree -- "no bad deed" and all; horsepeople are nuts). I have no idea what actually transpired with the check, though I do have to say SO's version of things comes across as much more credible and sensible, and also you shouldn't discount the reputation she has, which is very good.

But in any case ... the FACT here is that you have no legal right to any refund, per your contract, and as noted it's rather unusual for a refund of this sort to be issued, so there's no industry "standard" there to appeal to either. You've gotten your answer about what kind of help this forum is willing to offer you. So I guess I only see one remaining avenue for you to get the "wrong" redressed, and that's with the SO, privately -- if she still wants to deal with you at all. Do you think continued wailing in this forum is going to help or hurt that cause?

[AppJumpr08]

OP, honestly you really should take the advice of the other posters on this thread.
LET IT GO and look forward to the foal your mare is carrying now. The SO has NO obligation to you. Especially since you failed to read and understand the contract.

Makes me think twice about marketing my guy for sure!!!

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=misstimi;3653257]I hear all of you defending synergy,


do not send another private message to me

[siegi b.]

I am willing to bet money on the fact that the OP got her mare pregnant with the semen sent by Lisa but is trying to make it look like the mare didn't take.

Fairview is definitely on to something.... "OOPS, almost. You did post about your IN FOAL mare.

Quote:
Originally Posted by misstimi
my mare (16 y.o. maiden) is 5 months along and is starting to look fat. Is that too soon (should I cut back on feed?) or is it normal. "

Hi Jump/Lisa, you should check your records to see if that coincides with your semen shipment dates.

As a former stallion owner this situation has a familiar ring to it. And I was one of those SOs that didn't charge the breeding fee until the mare was sonogrammed in foal at 14 days. No good deed shall go unpunished! :-)

[goodmorning]

Hmmm....Fairview and seig....good catch!

This whole thing is very fishy to me...and at this point, missitimi, you are causing a stir that could have quite the negative connotation for Lisa, possibly costing her future business, because you basically broke a contract....

[sid]

Yea, Siegi and Fairview...been there too. I know there are a few Boleem and Argosy's out there for which no stud fee was paid, as a result of splitting doses and'or to the "funny business" that can go on with shipped semen and a good swan song from the MO to which I fell prey.

Oy.

[RiddleMeThis]

In my mind I am just asking someone to hold up their end of the bargain as an honorable business person. So far, there have been honorable words, but no honorable actions and I have been a bit baffled by it. She has been FAR more than honorable by even SAYING she would send you that check. You were not and should not have even gotten that. I feel for the next MO who IS responsible and who may need that stud fee or half of it back, but she refuses because she got burned by YOU.
I am skeptical.I am too, but not of Synergy.

2. the cheque (9 months after saying she would send refund) was put through her bank as it is stamped by her bank on the back. Dittoing Equibrit here.
again, really nice of all of you to stand up for her, but weird how much angry jumping to conclusions there were. Jumping maybe, but not without support.
If someone gives their word, they should stick by it if possible and not pretend to be an innocent forum slander victim of a She hasnt pretended to be ANYTHING. She came on here and gave us the OTHER side to the story. psycho mare owner. You said it. :lol::lol:
I stuck by my word when i told her i would send the breeding fee right away - i fedexed it to her within an hour. I am just asking for the same courtesy from her. A courtesy that she does NOT need to provide, and wouldnt blame her in the least if she DIDNT provide it any more.
Pretending to be an upstanding, honorable business person is not the same as actually being one.
Pretending to have been burned by a SO is not the same as actually being burned by a SO.

[Foxtrot's]

...I'm confused (again). Where did the check end up - did MO eventually get a check
after the first one was stale dated?

[StoneCrown Sporthorses]

Wowee. :eek:

This post makes me quite uneasy to market, my guy. LFG is LFG. No refund, no implied refund, etc. When I do market my boy, I will definitely be needing the advice of seasoned professionals, like the SO. It's unfortunate to feel that this situation has either been intended to harm her reputation, or imply bad business practices. I'd be furious. Kinda already am. ;)

[Foxtrot's]

Where I see this is that there is a contract written up and signed. The stallion owner can chose to stick to that letter for letter, or in the interests of good business, getting more foals on the ground, having sympathy for the MO, the SO can chose, if he/she so desires, to make a concession. It is neither expected or mandatory.

I've heard of several generous offers from stallion owners and if has, of course, only improved their reputation, because of course, mare owners talk.

[clint]

Where I see this is that there is a contract written up and signed. The stallion owner can chose to stick to that letter for letter, or in the interests of good business, getting more foals on the ground, having sympathy for the MO, the SO can chose, if he/she so desires, to make a concession. It is neither expected or mandatory.

I've heard of several generous offers from stallion owners and if has, of course, only improved their reputation, because of course, mare owners talk.

This particular SO has given generous offers. I know this because I am a recipient of one. I didn't ask for it; it was offered. However, had she chosen not to do what she did, I wouldn't have smeared her on the internet and in fact, wouldn't have thought any less of her. After all, there is a contract in place which is clearly and fairly written and as a matter of course, her contract for Raffaello is more generous than many. The OP would appear to have some private vendetta, and chose to take it public to harm Lisa.

[Foxtrot's]

I think you misread my post: I was trying to say that SO's have an option to be generous over and above their written contract: I am fully supportive of this SO judging by what I read here. I think she was generous, over and above her contract. Sorry if it was not clear.

[ShowjumpersUSA]

Lisa is one of the most ethical, hardest working SO's I know. It's nice to read the glowing references from so many of Lisa's clients and friends. No one is more deserving of accolades than she is. Anyone who knows anything about Lisa is aware of the labor of love her stallions are and have always been to her. How anyone could try to destroy her reputation like this is appalling.

If the OP has lost sleep over anything, it was probably because she was lying awake trying to figure out how to get something for nothing.

Please, Lisa, send me the name.... In case I ever stand another stallion, I'd like a heads-up on this mare owner!

[Hi Jump]

A breeder called me and in conversation mentioned that the opening poster is talking about her mare being 5 months in in foal as late as October and that she then contracted strangles. I think this thread should have been called "help with this mareowner" .

Thank you to everyone for your support, some of you know me personally from breeding , others only by reputation but it really helped me that you were all so supportive. I have been just shaking with frustration over this. I had mailed out the replacement cheque prior to seeing this , but wonder if I should try to stop payment, this is just unbelievable.

Lisa Paulson, Synergy Sporthorses

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=174129
shows:

Nov. 2, 2008, 08:29 PM
misstimi
Greenie Join Date: Oct. 23, 2008
Posts: 8

when will mares start to show belly and strangles effects

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my mare (16 y.o. maiden) is 5 months along and is starting to look fat. Is that too soon (should I cut back on feed?) or is it normal.
and, she had sadly contracted strangles from her neighbor, (another reason she may be fat as her training abruptly stopped 6 weeks ago when she got it) and I am wondering if anyone out there has had foal problems due to strangles or ...?

[Daventry]

I would stop payment on the cheque NOW. Besides the fact that it sounds like her mare DID indeed get in foal, she publicly defamated you on a popular and highly read forum. Seeing as your contract DID NOT state a refund was available, I'd pull the cheque after all of this. If, for no other reason, until it gets sorted out who's foal the mare is carrying. :(

[AppJumpr08]

I don't know about anyone else, but I wouldn't blame you if you did stop payment... you never owed her the money in the first place.

[FriesianX]

Heck, I think she inadvertently just provided you with more positive PR than she could ever have imagined :lol: If I bred jumpers, I'd be tempted to breed to your boys now.

You DON'T owe her a refund - although you do have a LFG (and her mare may have aborted from the stress of being sick). So - the big question - do you want her knocking on your door for a re-breeding next year (BLEAH). Or is it worth it to just give her a little money to make her go away, away, away? Sometimes it is worth it to pay something to make it disappear :no:

[Fairview Horse Center]

but wonder if I should try to stop payment, this is just unbelievable.

Lisa, it would be a no-brainer in my book. No one that has done this to a stallion owner deserves any special consideration or favors. Even if not in foal to your stallion, she is in foal, and could have taken advantage of the breed back, instead of breeding to another stallion. Her choice to not have used the paid contract. She begged money from you to pay for more breeding expenses. Hopefully there is something in your contract to not allow her to contnue breeding next season.

[Hi Jump]

I am absolutely shaking, I cannot believe this. I am going to stop payment, I can always reissue another check but this sounds really BAD. I have had the MOST WONDERFUL experiences assisting with breedings, truly special and honourable mareowners sharing their dreams and in 7 years breeding this is my first complaint and the first bad experience I have had, which should speak of how superb most breeders are!

Lisa Paulson, Synergy Sporthorses
Home to Holstein Cotopaxi (stamm 776) and Hanoverian Raffaello (Jumper Breeding Program)
http://www.synergysporthorses.net

[clint]

I'm glad you are stopping payment. If you change your mind, though, be sure that she isn't included in your stallion report. No point in giving her a registerable foal if you refund the stud fee.

[TrueColours]

100%

Stop Payment

"Out" her so no other stallion owners need to be subjected to this Mare Owner and can choose to walk away if she EVER contacts them

Have a nice glass of wine tonight and hold your head up high knowing that you have operated with integrity and class in the face of a terrible situation

Unbelievable. Just totally unbelievable ... :no:

[Daventry]

I am absolutely shaking, I cannot believe this. I am going to stop payment, I can always reissue another check but this sounds really BAD. I have had the MOST WONDERFUL experiences assisting with breedings, truly special and honourable mareowners sharing their dreams and in 7 years breeding this is my first complaint and the first bad experience I have had, which should speak of how superb most breeders are!


Like Oprah always says, you gotta listen to your gut feelings...they start out with a whisper! Like you said, you can always re-issue a cheque if things change later on. But, I think you need to find out more information about the pregnant mare from the Mare Owner. Like someone else already mentioned, if the mare is pregnant and did so by going with another stallion, you have NO reason to refund her money as she SHOULD have rebred her mare to your stallion.

Besides everything else, you have NO reason to refund money to a lady for which there was no refund available in the contract and she tried to publicly flog you on the internet. Many of us would still have the utmost respect for you if you didn't refund the money. I know I would be mad enough to take back my kind acceptance (because she basically forced you into it) of a refund. :mad: Most Stallion Owners who offer their stallions to the general public work their butts off to keep our Mare Owners happy and make sure we have successful foals hitting the ground. The last thing any of us need to deal with is a dishonest Mare Owner who doesn't appreciate how hard we work and the hours we put into it. :no:

[crosscountry101]

In reading these posts in support of Lisa, I think that everyone has now a right to know who the MO is, as the intent can only be construed as malicious, to someone that I know to be a generous, caring and very honorable person. Hopefully no one will ever have to deal with such situation happening to them.

Meet "Misstimi' http://www.belcavallo.com/Artist.asp?ArtistID=17986&Akey=PQ446SBG

She has a wonderful website and many of you may have been lucky enough to actually see some of her world reknowned work......
Knowing this, it makes the whole situation more & more distasteful.....