Wowie wow wow: Arabian mare at Hanoverian inspection

[Joanne]

You tube video of the Arabian mare that got a 7.33 at the Hanoverian inspection a week ago. She is bred to Escudo II.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtSuNjYkxUk

[Toadie's mom]

I love arabians, and I worked at a show/breeding farm "back in the day", so I don't mean to be offensive....but...what do you think is so extraordinary about this mare?

[QuillcoteFarm]

I too love the arabs, they are great to work with, so smart :winkgrin: I also worked on a arab breeding farm, long time ago. My question is for all the breeders is, do you ever worry about the spook factor in them? combined with the WB's that can be kinda spooky as well on their own???? some not all, not trying to start anything :D:D

I have seen so many beautiful crosses with the arabs, is there a specific type that crosses better? I know the egyptian tend to be lighter, than the polish?

I LOVE the crosses that Ancient Oaks has, well Iam an Ironman fan anyways!!

[Dazednconfused]

I love arabians, and I worked at a show/breeding farm "back in the day", so I don't mean to be offensive....but...what do you think is so extraordinary about this mare?

Well, it seems that the inspector found her pretty extraordinary ;) The sound quality is not very good but I heard several 8s.

I too love the arabs, they are great to work with, so smart :winkgrin: I also worked on a arab breeding farm, long time ago. My question is for all the breeders is, do you ever worry about the spook factor in them? combined with the WB's that can be kinda spooky as well on their own???? some not all, not trying to start anything :D:D

I have seen so many beautiful crosses with the arabs, is there a specific type that crosses better? I know the egyptian tend to be lighter, than the polish?

I LOVE the crosses that Ancient Oaks has, well Iam an Ironman fan anyways!!

Arabians are no more spooky as a breed than any other. Just a matter of starting them appropriately and breeding selectively for good minds. Again, just like any other breed.

[grayarabpony]

Well, it seems that the inspector found her pretty extraordinary ;) The sound quality is not very good but I heard several 8s.



Arabians are no more spooky as a breed than any other. Just a matter of starting them appropriately and breeding selectively for good minds. Again, just like any other breed.

There are a lot of spooky Arabians. That stereotype didn't come from nowhere. It doesn't mean that the a spooky horse is necessarily inferior, some people just don't like to deal with spookiness. Generally once you get the horse's attention and the horse is happy in his work the spookiness will disappear or greatly diminish.

I'm surprised that mare got several 8's. She does travel a bit wide behind, like my pony, but doesn't have the float or freedom in her shoulder that my pony does.

[stripes]

I love arabians, and I worked at a show/breeding farm "back in the day", so I don't mean to be offensive....but...what do you think is so extraordinary about this mare?

No offense taken. Funny you mention extraordinary, as Caraechstrodinair's sire is Echstrordinairy. So that's one thing ;).

Carli is my mare and I'm extremely happy that she is now approved Hanoverian. Now I'm one step closer to my goal of having my future show horse out of my favorite mare! For those of you that know Arabians she has a wonderful pedigree and is a blend of Polish/Spanish/Russian & Crabbet. Sired by Echstrordinary (Echo Magnifficoo x Bey Teyna) National Champion Stallion & Mare and out of SA Portia (*Persten x MHR Elimara by *Elimar). Carli was bred for athletic ability along with halter pretty.

When I saw Carli at my trainer's I knew I wanted her! She was very different from the rest of the Arabians in the barn. I had been looking for a dressage prospect for myself and she more than fit the bill. She is extremely correct in conformation, great legs and feet. She has a wonderful work ethic, loves people & attention, quick to learn & everything has been physically easy for her once she gets it in her head. She's very happy being ridden and doing stuff - right now she is obsessed with leg yielding and we are having to work on straight lines again:lol:.

Someone mentioned Arabians being spooky - all breeds of horses have spooky ones. I think Arabians are hot and therefore people misinterpret hot for spooky. Carli is neither hot or spooky, which I why I was able to own her. She didn't want to play the halter game - good for me!

While many will want to pick her apart and find anything negative, I hope just as many will see her for what she is - a very correct mare, with lovely movement. And hopefully some will like her enough to check out Arabians and find out that they do make great sport horses. :winkgrin:

[grayarabpony]

Someone mentioned Arabians being spooky - all breeds of horses have spooky ones. I think Arabians are hot and therefore people misinterpret hot for spooky. Carli is neither hot or spooky, which I why I was able to own her.



No one is going to misinterpret hot for spooky, nor did anyone say that Arabians are the only horses that spook.

[Home Again Farm]

Stripes, congratulations on your lovely mare! Her scores reflect her quality and the fact that she is the type Arabian that the Hanoverian Society looks for. Enjoy!!!! :yes: :D :yes:

[stripes]

I'll just go ahead and post her scores, as I know the video is pretty raw. (I only put it out there so that my friends & family could see her)

Scores:
Head - 10, Neck - 8, Saddle Position - 8, Frame - 7, Foreleg - 7, Hindleg - 7
Conformation - 8, Typiness,Femininity - 8, Correctness of Gaits - 7, Impulsion,Elasticity - 8/8, Walk - 6, Overall Impressions, Development - 7
Final score: 7.33

[stripes]

No one is going to misinterpret hot for spooky, nor did anyone say that Arabians are the only horses that spook.

Wow! Excuse me, I didn't realize that you speak for everyone. My apologies. It's been my experience that many people mistake the Arabian hot for being spooky. JMHO.

[stripes]

Stripes, congratulations on your lovely mare! Her scores reflect her quality and the fact that she is the type Arabian that the Hanoverian Society looks for. Enjoy!!!! :yes: :D :yes:

Thank you! I have high hopes for this baby - it took me a long time to find that perfect stallion for her. Escudo II is everything I could hope for in a stallion! Now I have to wait until June for the baby.

[grayarabpony]

Wow! Excuse me, I didn't realize that you speak for everyone. My apologies. It's been my experience that many people mistake the Arabian hot for being spooky. JMHO.

Just correcting you, who said that people misinterpret hot for spooky. Many Arabians that are hot are hot AND spooky.

[Equine Reproduction]

Wow!!! Did you see that movement on EDGAR????!!! Impressive, Edgar <grin>.

Arabs will always have a soft spot in my heart - you get the right one and there's nothing that compares <smile>. Congrats, Stripes.

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

[stripes]

Just correcting you, who said that people misinterpret hot for spooky. Many Arabians that are hot are hot AND spooky.

Look, before we go down this road, you are just being argumentative for the sake of argument. No need to correct me - I didn't post anything incorrect. If you have nothing more to add than Arabians are hot & spooky, then maybe you should start your own thread about that. ;)

[europa]

Edgar looks alittle hot and spooky!!! HA HA.....just kidding Edgar!

Can't wait to see the Arab/Escudo II cross....should be very nice. I love my baby by him.

[stripes]

Wow!!! Did you see that movement on EDGAR????!!! Impressive, Edgar <grin>.

Arabs will always have a soft spot in my heart - you get the right one and there's nothing that compares <smile>. Congrats, Stripes.

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

Edgar was great! Everyone at Rainbow Equus Meadows was just the best and very supportive, much thanks & gratitude to Edgar & Susan.

Thank you Kathy - you're absolutely right and Carli is my special one.:)

[stripes]

Edgar looks alittle hot and spooky!!! HA HA.....just kidding Edgar!

Can't wait to see the Arab/Escudo II cross....should be very nice. I love my baby by him.

Well we have to wait until the end of June. It seems so far away, LOL. But it is worth the wait and it will be my dream horse!

Congrats on your foal! I would love to see photos of your baby - the Escudo II babies that I've seen have all been exceptional!

[Dawn J-L]

Stripes, as I have said elsewhere congrats on the AHS approval on your mare. Kudos!!!

[QuillcoteFarm]

Sorry I didnt mean to start anything, I know that working with TB's some can be hot, but I have never run into a spooky TB.

Now that I think of some of the arabs that I started in the past, none of them were hot or spooky. All of them I started were from babies thru about 4 yrs of age, some I showed in hand and others started for a dressage career, and they were all owned by older adults that I would consider ammys.

But Iam still pondering my original question...... is there a type that crosses better with the WBs than another? Also what about height? What are you finding for height when full grown? :winkgrin:

I find myself liking this cross, and I have always loved arabs, (maybe because my great grandfathers family bred and raised arabs in Turkey) but I dont have any experience with the bloodlines like I do with the TBs. I guess thats the reason for all the questions :eek:

[stripes]

Sorry I didnt mean to start anything, I know that working with TB's some can be hot, but I have never run into a spooky TB.

Now that I think of some of the arabs that I started in the past, none of them were hot or spooky. All of them I started were from babies thru about 4 yrs of age, some I showed in hand and others started for a dressage career, and they were all owned by older adults that I would consider ammys.

But Iam still pondering my original question...... is there a type that crosses better with the WBs than another? Also what about height? What are you finding for height when full grown? :winkgrin:

I find myself liking this cross, and I have always loved arabs, (maybe because my great grandfathers family bred and raised arabs in Turkey) but I dont have any experience with the bloodlines like I do with the TBs. I guess thats the reason for all the questions :eek:

You didn't start anything - there's always someone who will come along and play the Arabian Spook card. Its been my experience that Arabians spook when they are bored or lose their focus, its easy to manage. My goal is to breed something that I can ride and show. I'm hoping for something around 15.2 - 15.3 with great trainability, ridability and super gaits. Plus I like pretty =).

The WB/Arab crosses that I know first hand have good points & bad. My friend bred her Serafix/Raffon/Port Bask mare to Diamont. He is now 6 yrs. and 16h. Dam is 15.1h. As he was growing up he had some spook in him, but now that he's broke and being ridden the spook is gone. He's more hunter type than dressage type, very flat kneed. The other is a Holsteiner/Arab cross that is just beginning his jumping career. He's an awesome horse! He did have some growth issues and wasn't started under saddle until he was 4. Never spooky, always alert & bold. Not the prettiest guy, but extemely athletic & big at 16.3h. Dam is a Fame VF granddaughter.

[Joanne]

Stripes: Congratulations on your lovely mare, and thank you for sharing your video on you tube. Quite a few main stud book Hanoverian mares don't get scores that high. The baby should be fantastic.

[Sakura]

But Iam still pondering my original question...... is there a type that crosses better with the WBs than another? Also what about height? What are you finding for height when full grown? :winkgrin:


I would not say there is a "better type" of Arabian for a WB X... It really depends on the individual horse and what your breeding goals are (as in any breeding decision).

There are incredibly athletic Arabians of every type and strain. This Mare (http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g278/Copperleaf/SanteriMovingout.jpg) is 15/16 Egyptian, Kuhaylan (Kuhaylan's tend to have more substance/bone) in strain (not the stereotypical svelte creature that comes to mind when people say "Egyptian Arabian"). This Mare (http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g278/Copperleaf/SabrinaMorningTrotBrightSmall.jpg) is Russian/Crabbet, Saqlawi (Saqlawi's are more feminine and elegant in build) in strain... she is built almost in the same fashion as an Akhal-Teke... Most people think of Polish and Crabbet bred horses to be tank-like. So, really, I guess the strain would be a more important factor to take into account (especially since multiple strains can be found within each type of Arabian) when choosing what Arabian to use in the WB + Arabian equation.

~edited to change Mare #2 to Russian/Crabbet... I was thinking of my stallion when I typed Polish/Crabbet... ooops.

[stripes]

I would not say there is a "better type" of Arabian for a WB X... It really depends on the individual horse and what your breeding goals are (as in any breeding decision).

There are incredibly athletic Arabians of every type and strain. This Mare (http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g278/Copperleaf/SanteriMovingout.jpg) is 15/16 Egyptian, Kuhaylan (Kuhaylan's tend to have more substance/bone) in strain (not the stereotypical svelte creature that comes to mind when people say "Egyptian Arabian"). This Mare (http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g278/Copperleaf/SabrinaMorningTrotBrightSmall.jpg) is Polish/Crabbet, Saqlawi (Saqlawi's are more feminine and elegant in build) in strai... she is built almost in the same fashion as an Akhal-Teke... Most people think of Polish and Crabbet bred horses to be tank-like. So, really, I guess the strain would be a more important factor to take into account (especially since multiple strains can be found within each type of Arabian) when choosing what Arabian to use in the WB + Arabian equation.

Good post :).

[stripes]

Stripes: Congratulations on your lovely mare, and thank you for sharing your video on you tube. Quite a few main stud book Hanoverian mares don't get scores that high. The baby should be fantastic.

Thank you! I'm very proud of her :winkgrin:. I guess she may have to have more than 1 baby now.

[grayarabpony]

Look, before we go down this road, you are just being argumentative for the sake of argument. No need to correct me - I didn't post anything incorrect. If you have nothing more to add than Arabians are hot & spooky, then maybe you should start your own thread about that. ;)

No, I'm not arguing for the sake of argument, I'm saying you're not making sense.

People who come onto forums and state that Arabians aren't hot, or aren't spooky, are not increasing their credibility. YOUR mare may not be hot and spooky, but lots of Arabians are.

So are some TBs, and some Paints, etc -- and guess what, they all got their hotbloodedness from Arabians, Barbs and Turks.

[rainechyldes]

No, I'm not arguing for the sake of argument, I'm saying you're not making sense.

People who come onto forums and state that Arabians aren't hot, or aren't spooky, are not increasing their credibility. YOUR mare may not be hot and spooky, but lots of Arabians are.

So are some TBs, and some Paints, etc -- and guess what, they all got their hotbloodedness from Arabians, Barbs and Turks.

Well frankly as an Arab owner multiple times over and for several decades, at the moment it's almost all we have, I don't see the point of this particular tangent conversation. Arabians are a hot breed, re the 'hot' part. Whats to argue about? Can they be spooky you bet- it's pretty much a given with a young Arabian, however not always, and most Arabians once they grow up (brainwise) and are active and working, lose the spook and keep the hot - Arabians also have in my experience once they are mature, exceptional work ethics, They like to work and work hard.

I tend to consider Arabians a lot like children. Easily distractable, excitable, smart, energetic and eventually grow up to be fun responsible hard working people who you enjoy being around.

to the OP - congratulations on your mare.

[stripes]

No, I'm not arguing for the sake of argument, I'm saying you're not making sense.

People who come onto forums and state that Arabians aren't hot, or aren't spooky, are not increasing their credibility. YOUR mare may not be hot and spooky, but lots of Arabians are.

So are some TBs, and some Paints, etc -- and guess what, they all got their hotbloodedness from Arabians, Barbs and Turks.

And so many more aren't hot or spooky. That's the reality of it. It's people like you that discredit the breed, not me. I think your comprehension is off, as my posts make perfect sense. Look I don't even want to get into it with you as you obviously know better than I (definitely a sarcastic tone here). And I'm not here to discuss the Arabian breed. I was warned about people like you on this forum being rude & snarky, especially where Arabians are concerned and I won't play that game. If you want to talk about Hot vs Spooky start your own thread. Last I checked this thread is about my mare being approved Hanoverian.

My apologies to everyone else, knowitalls tend to bug me.

[stripes]

Well frankly as an Arab owner multiple times over and for several decades, at the moment it's almost all we have, I don't see the point of this particular tangent conversation. Arabians are a hot breed, re the 'hot' part. Whats to argue about? Can they be spooky you bet- it's pretty much a given with a young Arabian, however not always, and most Arabians once they grow up (brainwise) and are active and working, lose the spook and keep the hot - Arabians also have in my experience once they are mature, exceptional work ethics, They like to work and work hard.

I tend to consider Arabians a lot like children. Easily distractable, excitable, smart, energetic and eventually grow up to be fun responsible hard working people who you enjoy being around.

to the OP - congratulations on your mare.

:) Thank you!

[QuillcoteFarm]

I would not say there is a "better type" of Arabian for a WB X... It really depends on the individual horse and what your breeding goals are (as in any breeding decision).

There are incredibly athletic Arabians of every type and strain. This Mare (http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g278/Copperleaf/SanteriMovingout.jpg) is 15/16 Egyptian, Kuhaylan (Kuhaylan's tend to have more substance/bone) in strain (not the stereotypical svelte creature that comes to mind when people say "Egyptian Arabian"). This Mare (http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g278/Copperleaf/SabrinaMorningTrotBrightSmall.jpg) is Russian/Crabbet, Saqlawi (Saqlawi's are more feminine and elegant in build) in strain... she is built almost in the same fashion as an Akhal-Teke... Most people think of Polish and Crabbet bred horses to be tank-like. So, really, I guess the strain would be a more important factor to take into account (especially since multiple strains can be found within each type of Arabian) when choosing what Arabian to use in the WB + Arabian equation.

~edited to change Mare #2 to Russian/Crabbet... I was thinking of my stallion when I typed Polish/Crabbet... ooops.

Ahhhhhhh ok yes you make a lot of sense and I can really see the difference. I didnt know that there were many types sorta mixed into each other. I did some research on my own and found the polish arab to be much more, like you said, tank like. The egyptians seem a bit lighter bodied and sleeker.

This thread gives me a different road to go down now :winkgrin:

Just as a side note I had two 1/2 arab ponies for my girls when they were young and they were the best ponies. We also had a couple of arabs as school horses and they were priceless!

Thanks everyone for the info!

[Joanne]

I had a Bask/Raffles cross Arabian mare for 22 years. Always wanted a Muscat daughter and adored Amber Satin.

[DennisM]

The mare is impressive, no doubt, but come on -- the most impressive thing about that video is how FAST Edgar can sprint!

[Dawn J-L]

Sorry I didnt mean to start anything, I know that working with TB's some can be hot, but I have never run into a spooky TB.

Now that I think of some of the arabs that I started in the past, none of them were hot or spooky. All of them I started were from babies thru about 4 yrs of age, some I showed in hand and others started for a dressage career, and they were all owned by older adults that I would consider ammys.

That has been my experience with them. :-)

But Iam still pondering my original question...... is there a type that crosses better with the WBs than another? Also what about height? What are you finding for height when full grown? :winkgrin:

I find myself liking this cross, and I have always loved arabs, (maybe because my great grandfathers family bred and raised arabs in Turkey) but I don't have any experience with the bloodlines like I do with the TBs. I guess thats the reason for all the questions :eek:

I believe that most of the Arabians that have been utilized w/ WB's are of Polish and/or Crabbet/CMK and/or Russian lineages, but I suspect that good examples of the sport type can be found in most bloodline groups. I think there are absolutely some lovely examples (including for jumping) in the Spanish bloodlines. I've seen some excellent Eqyptians, too (and some of the early Crabbet horses that would be thought of as progenitors of the "sport type" came from Egypt--like the stallion Mesaoud.)

Here are some links to current (or recent) sport horse Arabian farms/competitors (this is not exhaustive--just a survey of what is out there):
http://www.stanleyranch.com/ (Spanish lineage)
http://www.legendaryarabians.com/ (CMK bloodlines, includes an ATA approved stallion and some of his Trak offspring)
http://www.sovereignhorses.com/horses.html (Trakehners-including some 1/2 Arabs)
http://mcadoophotos.com/tobruk_farm.htm (some 1/2 Arab WB's)
http://www.ancientoakssporthorse.com/
http://blythdale.tripod.com/coventryequestriancenter/id24.html (Gail Hoff-Carmona and Egyptian Arabians for dressage)
http://www.larapintasporthorses.com/ (Egyptian lineage)
http://www.glynnsong.com/stallion.html (multiple competition horses)
http://samanthahodgson.com/Horses.html (young rider w/ Arabians)
http://faeriecourtfarm.com/index.html (disclaimer: this is my little farm <wink>)

My own belief is that the best Arabians for sport should exhibit the same qualities that one wants to find in a good WB. Three pure gaits, a good L-S placement, a strong hip, correct legs, structural balance, good use of the topline, high rideability and an excellent work ethic, etc. Look in the right places and you can find 'em.

stripes' mare, Caraechstrodinair, is an excellent example of the type of Arabian that often crosses well with WB's. I think that this fine mare's foal by Escudo II ought to be quite nice :-)

Here's a fun tidbit:
From this article: http://www.americantrakehner.com/Magazine/MagRecent.htm
Gerhard began breeding Trakehners because his early exposure to them convinced him that the Trakehner had the greatest potential to succeed in international competition. Toward this end, Gerhard has some, perhaps controversial, thoughts on the Arabian blood which has been fundamental in the success of his breeding program.

"I think we are not putting in enough, and by not putting in enough we are going to lack endurance and type, too, eventually. I have some Abiza daughters here and they look like they are Arab and they are only 1/16 Arab but the look is still there. Abiza was 1/8 Arab, look how the Arab is still in her, and Archie, her son, 21 now, still looks . . .[that way]. I bought one mare, I consider her the second best I bought, Heimische, (Hänsel's dam), . . .I simply liked her . . .most important thing was she was half-Arab. . .This is what the breed is all about. They found a good Arab and they brought him in." Gerhard is quick to point out this century's marker stallions are high percentage Thoroughbred and Arabian offspring. This is what makes the Trakehner a warmblood and a warmblood of a particularly sought-after type.

Charlotte, too, appreciates the need for Arabian blood. "I can't get enough of it, if I can get the good stuff. They're tough, and for performance you need good tough horses not wimps that break down. You want those tougher kinds of attributes that the Arab can give. That's why you crossbreed. I don't think you can get a better cross than the Arab-Trakehner or the Thoroughbred-Trakehner. [For a sport horse] that's the ultimate. A 50/50 blood cross. I can tell you with Astrahan, he has an easier time conditioning than Amiego or Anton ('92 Olympic qualifier). For him it comes easier. He's big, heavy boned, like an English-type Thoroughbred . . not any heavier than Amiego or Anton, but he has an easier time of it."

[stripes]

The mare is impressive, not doubt, but come on -- the most impressive thing about that video is how FAST Edgar can sprint!

:lol: Edgar definitely impressed me!

[pintopiaffe]

For those of you that know Arabians she has a wonderful pedigree and is a blend of Polish/Spanish/Russian & Crabbet.I find this interesting, as my stallion who is approved RSPI is an amalgam of Polish/Swedish/Crabbett & Egyptian. Meg Hamilton said he's the kind of stallion you'd see used in Europe for breed improvement.

So far for WB, I have used him on Trakehner with wonderful results, but of course that's sort of to be expected. I have put my Polish/Swedish 1/2 Arab mare to a Friesian/Dutch with pretty spectacular results. I haven't advertised my guy for the past 4 years as I really want to be showing 3rd on the way to PSG before he gets busy in the breeding shed again. He has small handful of foals on the ground, the eldest of which are 7 this year, to 'prove' him, and I think it's super important to go for the performance. *I* don't have the time/facilities/energy to do both, so the poor guy's been celibate.

I know Manhattan crosses super-well with Arab. I'm old school and think it is better to go with the blood on top, but Arab mares are sort of like TB mares in the US. Anyone with a good eye/education can find one for relatively cheap, get her approved, then 'breed up' with Euro lines if that's where they want to go. I'll admit--I prefer an Arab X WB to a straight WB. But that's what's so wonderful about horses, a different flavor for everyone. ;)

I think some *lines* are spookier than others. I am 99% sure that has to do with breeding for a certain look of the eye, rather than for the FUNCTION of the eye... JMHO, of course. My guy is the cowardly lion, but not in a spooky way. His kids are super smart, and pretty much born bombproof.

Re: Trakehners, I agree 110% with that quote. I worked at a Tk breeding farm as a working student, and was fairly shocked (at the time) to find their best producing mares looked like nothing more than big, purebred Arabians. 15.2-3, stunning heads, necks, and even the tail-over-the-back thing... these mares were producing stallion candidates and top-top performance horses. I always think of Abdullah as well, that head & neck... (and of course *tail* :p ) Several others of my favorite Traks show strong Arab type. It is part of what makes the breed different.

[Ladybug Hill]

I think the mare is very nice but I was expecting something a bit more extraordinary based on the title.

I have owned a few Arabians in the past and worked at an Arabian breeding farm for 2 years. I tend to like the Crabbet bloodlines the best and the domestic lines like the early Gainey horses especially for temperament. I owned a mare so similar to this mare. I thought she also was a lovely type for an Arab, but had no idea that she would have been appreciated so well by a WB registry.

I find that the chestnut mare and my own are actually very typical types of the "decent" ones out there. I think they will lack the freedom that the WBs have, but are typey and could be lovely crossed with the right stallion. I think Escudo II is an excellent choice for any temperament issues, but I would wonder about height a bit with this cross. Should be pretty and would love to see the foal.

[ASBnTX]

....most Arabians once they grow up (brainwise) and are active and working, lose the spook and keep the hot........I tend to consider Arabians a lot like children. Easily distractable, excitable, smart, energetic and eventually grow up to be fun responsible hard working people who you enjoy being around..

I love this statement! I have a 3.5 year old Saddlebred who fits that description to a "t". He does have some spook to him, and I often wonder how long it'll be before that brain grows up?? Right now his agenda is play, spook, eat, play, play, play, spook, play :) Smart, fun, and silly!

Congrats Stripes on your mare! That will be one incredible baby!!

[Equine Reproduction]

Edgar looks alittle hot and spooky!!! HA HA.....just kidding Edgar!

Edgar was bred for performance, Europa and he's not been hot or spooky IMO. Well...at least he's only been hot when provoked <lol>.

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

[MissBri]

She's a pretty mare. Congrats

[railmom]

The mare is impressive, no doubt, but come on -- the most impressive thing about that video is how FAST Edgar can sprint!

Very nice mare, congrats! Now that Edgar, really impressive :)

Should be a very nice foal, can't wait to see it!

[stripes]

The mare in the original post is lovely! Many congratulations on her approval, that is wonderful!! You can sure be a proud mamma! :D :)

I think my Arabian mare redefined the word hot. Sheesh. But she's halter lines so I guess that's just genetics. http://www.hphoofcare.com/PADRONAbath3.jpg and http://www.hphoofcare.com/Padrona%20Canter.jpg. And there's a pic of her under saddle in my profile.

She's great though, a real sweet girl. Tons of talent and athleticism, extremely smart, great recovery scores, and boy can she burn up the trail. She's almost 6 and she's been slow to mature, mentally and physically. She's 15 hands, and I just looked at her the other day and she's butt high again! She might put on another inch or so.

She's my 2nd Arabian, and the first one was hot too but not like this one. I think hotness is just a breed tendency but personally I love it.

You just can't beat an Arabian! :D I'll always own at least one.

Thank you!

Your girl is lovely! I'm assuming from her name that she is *Padron bred? My dressage gelding was bred along those lines and actually bred for the Halter arena. Yes, they are HOT! LOL, Stripes settled down when it counted through and got to work. He was also slow to mature mentally, but well worth the wait! His new owner just loves him, says he's a barn favorite. Not bad for being in a Dressage Barn ;).

[Joanne]

Ladybug Hill wrote:...I think Escudo II is an excellent choice for any temperament issues, but I would wonder about height a bit with this cross." Do you mean smaller mare to taller stallion? Escudo II is listed at about 16 hands+.

Back in the 80s, I wanted to breed my 14.2 hand mare to a 16.3 stallion. Of course, I was worred about the height. I repeatedly asked my vet about it and he said (I wish I could remember the exact words as they made sense) something like the foal size will be what the mare can carry. I did the cross twice, had two fillies, one of which was eventually sold to the Italian endurance team for the 100 miles in one day competitions. Here is the vet:

http://www.vet.cornell.edu/news/articles/SRoberts.htm

[Ladybug Hill]

Ladybug Hill wrote:...I think Escudo II is an excellent choice for any temperament issues, but I would wonder about height a bit with this cross." Do you mean smaller mare to taller stallion? Escudo II is listed at about 16 hands+.

Escudo II is a very very small 16 hands. I have never seen him in person, but I have been told by several different folks that in person he does not even appear to be 16 hands. This is NOT a knock on the stallion. I think he is absoolutely lovely and would love to breed to him if I only had the right mare! My concern was being able to produce offspring out of a smallish mare and stallion that would be marketable. Of course, this is entirely up to the mare owner. With more people realizing that they don't need giant riding horses maybe this would be a fine cross. Escudo is such a pretty stallion that I think in type he would cross very well.

[Auventera Two]

Thank you!

Your girl is lovely! I'm assuming from her name that she is *Padron bred? My dressage gelding was bred along those lines and actually bred for the Halter arena. Yes, they are HOT! LOL, Stripes settled down when it counted through and got to work. He was also slow to mature mentally, but well worth the wait! His new owner just loves him, says he's a barn favorite. Not bad for being in a Dressage Barn ;).

Yup, that's her breeding. Padron's Psyche line. I've been told they are possibly THE hottest halter line available - by more than one Arab person. Apparently something about that Psyche breeding is even more, um, "challenging" than other *Padron lines. I don't know much at all about bloodlines. She developed bleeding ulcers and the vets said a lot of this often just has to do with genetics. She is VERY calm in the barn though and never panics or gets dumb about stuff. I've seen her go into the feed room and get wedged in between the feed bins and the cabinets and then back herself out verrrrrry carefully, backed out of the feed room, backed around the corner back to the barn aisle, then go back to her stall. NOT a nutjob horse, but just very energetic and "up" under saddle.

Mine is the same way - hotter than a....well nevermind....:lol: but when it really matters, she always comes through.

Anyway, that's great to hear your *Padron gelding turned out so great! Do you have any pictures of him you can post? I'd love to see him! Is that his only job now, dressage? Or do they do other stuff with him too? How old was he before he really settled down and matured?

[stripes]

Ladybug Hill wrote:...I think Escudo II is an excellent choice for any temperament issues, but I would wonder about height a bit with this cross." Do you mean smaller mare to taller stallion? Escudo II is listed at about 16 hands+.

Back in the 80s, I wanted to breed my 14.2 hand mare to a 16.3 stallion. Of course, I was worred about the height. I repeatedly asked my vet about it and he said (I wish I could remember the exact words as they made sense) something like the foal size will be what the mare can carry. I did the cross twice, had two fillies, one of which was eventually sold to the Italian endurance team for the 100 miles in one day competitions. Here is the vet:

http://www.vet.cornell.edu/news/articles/SRoberts.htm

I'm personally not worried about size, Carli's 15.1 and Escudo II is 16h. If the foal grows to be only 15.2h I'll be a happy camper! Although, the foal should be a very competitive size and probably taller than 15.2h. I'm only 5'2" and not getting any younger, the idea of riding a giant is not that appealing to me anymore. I searched for a smaller WB and didn't find anything that suited me, so I decided to try to breed my own.

[Joanne]

Ladybug Hill wrote: My concern was being able to produce offspring out of a smallish mare and stallion that would be marketable."

I apologize for my misinterpretation. Didn't know you meant size and marketing.

[europa]

My baby from him will probably be the biggest baby yet so I don't think you will have size to worry about.

My others from the mare are 17.1, 16.3 and 15.2 as a 2 year old.

http://www.photoreflect.com/pr3/orderpage.aspx?pi=05XF00690R0034&po=34

[grayarabpony]

And so many more aren't hot or spooky. That's the reality of it. It's people like you that discredit the breed, not me. I think your comprehension is off, as my posts make perfect sense. Look I don't even want to get into it with you as you obviously know better than I (definitely a sarcastic tone here). And I'm not here to discuss the Arabian breed. I was warned about people like you on this forum being rude & snarky, especially where Arabians are concerned and I won't play that game. If you want to talk about Hot vs Spooky start your own thread. Last I checked this thread is about my mare being approved Hanoverian.

My apologies to everyone else, knowitalls tend to bug me.


Yes, I live to discredit Arabians, I hate the half-bred pony I have and think she's a terrible horse (definitely a sarcastic tone here).

rainechyldes, all you did was state exactly what I said earlier. Yes Arabians tend to be hot and sensitive -- oh yeah, and spooky -- why deny it? And I also said this: "Generally once you get the horse's attention and the horse is happy in his work the spookiness will disappear or greatly diminish." I'm guessing everyone missed that part? Personally I think spooking is one of the lesser problems a horse can have, by a long shot.

In reality, I think that Arabians, Quarter Horses (of certain types) and any other breed that is athletic should be approved by warmblood registries if they are deserving.

The foot health, energy and float to the trot that an Arabian can bring, if you can find one with three good gaits (canter can be a problem) to a breeding program is very valuable. Oftentimes Arabians have a tremendous amount of go. France uses a lot of Half-Arabians for sport and Arabian blood has been used in development of the German Sports Pony, often very close up. So if you think I'm anti-Arabian you're way off base.

[railmom]

Europa - very nice foal!

There was an Escudo II colt at the Michigan inspection, biggest foal there. He was lovely!

[stripes]

Yup, that's her breeding. Padron's Psyche line. I've been told they are possibly THE hottest halter line available - by more than one Arab person. Apparently something about that Psyche breeding is even more, um, "challenging" than other *Padron lines. I don't know much at all about bloodlines. She developed bleeding ulcers and the vets said a lot of this often just has to do with genetics. She is VERY calm in the barn though and never panics or gets dumb about stuff. I've seen her go into the feed room and get wedged in between the feed bins and the cabinets and then back herself out verrrrrry carefully, backed out of the feed room, backed around the corner back to the barn aisle, then go back to her stall. NOT a nutjob horse, but just very energetic and "up" under saddle.

Mine is the same way - hotter than a....well nevermind....:lol: but when it really matters, she always comes through.

Anyway, that's great to hear your *Padron gelding turned out so great! Do you have any pictures of him you can post? I'd love to see him! Is that his only job now, dressage? Or do they do other stuff with him too? How old was he before he really settled down and matured?

Stripes is by Padrons Psyche and looks just like him! He's a lazy hot, which means it doesn't last long when he does decide to blow. I know this will sound crazy, but I started feeding him dried raspberry leaves with his other goodies and he settled down quite a bit. He's a HUGE Arabian, an honest 16.2h and he has decent gaits. There's a lot of size in Psyche's damline. His first real show was Scottsdale in 2005. He was 4. We TT'd in the AAOTR Hunter Pl. and placed 3rd out of 14 in our Ammy Training Level Test. He did much better in Dressage than, Hunter Pleasure. Dressage keeps his mind busy, so I went that way with him. He's much better working than he is just riding down the trail. He likes to blow & snort on the trail - not spooky - just HOT and having fun. Here's a video of him & I doing training level. I'm just an ammy, so no picking at my riding;).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRMkFCKx0r8

[europa]

She is far and away the smartest and sweetest of my 3 babies. Everyone just fawns over her constantly. She is rock solid emotionally. She was just barely 3 months at her inspection and she NEVER ONCE twirled around or anything while all the other babies freaked. She just looked all around like here I am.

[lilypondlane]

I LOVE your mare!!! Seriously, she could easily pass for a Trakehner. :winkgrin: My TB/Trak mare by Pennant has that gorgeous Arab head and when she runs, her tail is always held high.

[Ladybug Hill]

Europa - very nice foal!

There was an Escudo II colt at the Michigan inspection, biggest foal there. He was lovely!


Ok, any stallion can have a big foal. There is another parent involved and genetics too. Part of what I find valuable about discussion groups is HONEST evaluations of stallions (and mares). Small stature is not necessarily a bad trait--it totally depends on your goals.

If Escudo II is known for having a majority of big foals then we should all be educated to this. If he has tends to 50% big and 50% small then fine. If he tends to have 80% small and 20% big then fine as well. I am not sure he has enough years yet as a breeding stallion for us to know? I really don't know.

Someone pointing out one or two foals that are big or small is not really valid. I think the stallion owner would be honest in what to "expect" from a particular breeding. He seems like a great person to work with.

With the vast number of generations behind the mare, we would expect her to be somewhat consistent in throwing genetics of a smaller stature. Arabians have been small in stature historically and consistently. However, bred to a stallion bigger than herself SOME of her offspring will probably tend to the size of the stallion. I would not expect a 16+ hand offspring from this cross.

The mare owner indicates that she would happy with any of the expected outcomes of this cross. I look forward to seeing the foal and hope the owner will post pictures when it arrives.

[stripes]

She is far and away the smartest and sweetest of my 3 babies. Everyone just fawns over her constantly. She is rock solid emotionally. She was just barely 3 months at her inspection and she NEVER ONCE twirled around or anything while all the other babies freaked. She just looked all around like here I am.

Beautiful baby! Great to hear she's people horse too - I'm really hoping for that.

[Auventera Two]

Stripes is by Padrons Psyche and looks just like him! He's a lazy hot, which means it doesn't last long when he does decide to blow. I know this will sound crazy, but I started feeding him dried raspberry leaves with his other goodies and he settled down quite a bit. He's a HUGE Arabian, an honest 16.2h and he has decent gaits. There's a lot of size in Psyche's damline. His first real show was Scottsdale in 2005. He was 4. We TT'd in the AAOTR Hunter Pl. and placed 3rd out of 14 in our Ammy Training Level Test. He did much better in Dressage than, Hunter Pleasure. Dressage keeps his mind busy, so I went that way with him. He's much better working than he is just riding down the trail. He likes to blow & snort on the trail - not spooky - just HOT and having fun. Here's a video of him & I doing training level. I'm just an ammy, so no picking at my riding;).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRMkFCKx0r8

Excellent!!! LOVED the video! You're right, he looks JUST like his dad! :eek: You look GREAT on him! You're a beautiful rider! Really really nice, I enjoyed that video. This whole thread just made my day! :D

Mine is the same way about the spooking - it's never any massive stupid blow-ups, it's just a turn and burn kind of spin out of nowhere. She's never bolted or acted completely "unglued." The ulcers really ran my train off the tracks though, but she's through treatment and has settled down significantly now.

Padrona's on raspberry leaves too. It's called Mare Magic. Is that how you buy it, or in bulk from an herb store?

Stripes has a more exotic head than my girl.

http://www.hphoofcare.com/river2.jpg This picture got weird in the scanner, but I love the original.

And ok - so my You Tube video isn't as impressive as yours, but she's an endurance horse, and she's got it goin' on! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z94WTn95Vlg :lol: :lol: :lol:

[stripes]

Ok, any stallion can have a big foal. There is another parent involved and genetics too. Part of what I find valuable about discussion groups is HONEST evaluations of stallions (and mares). Small stature is not necessarily a bad trait--it totally depends on your goals.

If Escudo II is known for having a majority of big foals then we should all be educated to this. If he has tends to 50% big and 50% small then fine. If he tends to have 80% small and 20% big then fine as well. I am not sure he has enough years yet as a breeding stallion for us to know? I really don't know.

Someone pointing out one or two foals that are big or small is not really valid. I think the stallion owner would be honest in what to "expect" from a particular breeding. He seems like a great person to work with.

With the vast number of generations behind the mare, we would expect her to be somewhat consistent in throwing genetics of a smaller stature. Arabians have been small in stature historically and consistently. However, bred to a stallion bigger than herself SOME of her offspring will probably tend to the size of the stallion. I would not expect a 16+ hand offspring from this cross.

The mare owner indicates that she would happy with any of the expected outcomes of this cross. I look forward to seeing the foal and hope the owner will post pictures when it arrives.

I'm really hoping for something between 15.1 & 16.0. The Escudo II foals that I have seen & photographed have all been a good size, but their Mama's have all been WB's. What I really love about the Escudo II foals is that they all have an elegance about them that you immediately notice. They're confident & curious and have wonderful movement.

[stripes]

Excellent!!! LOVED the video! You're right, he looks JUST like his dad! :eek: You look GREAT on him! You're a beautiful rider! Really really nice, I enjoyed that video. This whole thread just made my day! :D

Mine is the same way about the spooking - it's never any massive stupid blow-ups, it's just a turn and burn kind of spin out of nowhere. She's never bolted or acted completely "unglued." The ulcers really ran my train off the tracks though, but she's through treatment and has settled down significantly now.

Padrona's on raspberry leaves too. It's called Mare Magic. Is that how you buy it, or in bulk from an herb store?

Stripes has a more exotic head than my girl.

http://www.hphoofcare.com/river2.jpg This picture got weird in the scanner, but I love the original.

And ok - so my You Tube video isn't as impressive as yours, but she's an endurance horse, and she's got it goin' on! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z94WTn95Vlg :lol: :lol: :lol:

Thanks - you just made my day;). Is it any wonder the russian bred Arabians do so well on the race track - LOL.

Yep, Mare Magic, it works on geldings too. Good to hear the ulcers are under control. I have a friend who uses Succeed, and highly recommends it. She has an English Pl. stallion that has done very well with it.

[Dazednconfused]

Yup, that's her breeding. Padron's Psyche line. I've been told they are possibly THE hottest halter line available - by more than one Arab person. Apparently something about that Psyche breeding is even more, um, "challenging" than other *Padron lines. I don't know much at all about bloodlines. She developed bleeding ulcers and the vets said a lot of this often just has to do with genetics. She is VERY calm in the barn though and never panics or gets dumb about stuff. I've seen her go into the feed room and get wedged in between the feed bins and the cabinets and then back herself out verrrrrry carefully, backed out of the feed room, backed around the corner back to the barn aisle, then go back to her stall. NOT a nutjob horse, but just very energetic and "up" under saddle.

Mine is the same way - hotter than a....well nevermind....:lol: but when it really matters, she always comes through.

Anyway, that's great to hear your *Padron gelding turned out so great! Do you have any pictures of him you can post? I'd love to see him! Is that his only job now, dressage? Or do they do other stuff with him too? How old was he before he really settled down and matured?

I would not agree with that at all from my experience from Padron & Psyche related horses. You really also have to consider who their dams are and how they are raised. Some of the most popular 'nicks' with Psyche & his sons are the source of overly hot/spooky issues rather than those horses themselves.

Also I really agree that people can tend to consider hot and spooky one and the same - they're not. Clearly, arabians as a breed are 'hot' - they are more sensitive and thin skinned. That's a function of genetics, biology, and selective breeding in the desert for a successful warhorse, and is now useful for people that like a willing horse with a quick brain. Arabians are not spooky as a breed - it's a stereotype that really just doesn't fit. When I purchased my then 11-year old arabian mare, she was 'spooky' - because the instructor I had expected her to be that way, was unable to teach me how to get her past it, and she wasn't in a consistent program. Fast forward to having 24-7 turnout for a couple of months, then bringing her into a barn and putting her in not even full time training with someone who wasn't going to let her get away with copping out with spooks, and voila - no more spooky arab stereotype! Most of the arabians I've encountered since haven't been spooky either, with or without a program. Plenty of hot ones - and plenty of very quiet, couldn't-scare-them-with-firecrackers-under-their-bellies types as well. But spooky? Nope, not really any I can think of offhand.

Re: the size issue - it sounds to me like this lovely mare's owner has a size in mind that she is breeding for. To arabian people, 15.2 or 3 is a sizeable horse. In fact, before the obsession with 17 hand monsters, it would have been good sized anyway. Even very tall people rarely need a horse that size. In addition, breeding like to like is a common saying. It probably wouldn't do any good to breed an average-sized arabian mare to a monster-sized warmblood stallion as they are so different in type, nor would you have necessarily gotten a much larger baby. Or worse, ended up with a 17-hand-horse sized head on a 15.2 hand arabian body.

[Auventera Two]

Good points Dazed! Like I said, I only know what people tell me about bloodlines and tendencies, and such, because frankly, I'm just not that interested in it. :lol: So it's great to hear you've had great experiences with this line! Very encouraging.

Good to hear you got your mare straightened out also. I think there's always a reason they act the way they do. After one trail ride where my horse was practically operating under full blown panic for 2 hours, I knew something was VERY wrong. That's when we had the scope and found the ulcers. Amazing how the right medication can fix things. One thing I've learned through this is that Arabians have a tendency toward ulcers, as do TBs and Saddlebreds and all types of performance horses. When a horse is getting progressively spookier and harder to handle, start looking into medical issues.

I don't like the stereotype that Arabians are just expected to be spooky. For pete sake - Arabians have dominated endurance racing for decades, and all it takes is one spook to go over the side of a cliff, or off a bridge into the river, etc. Riders wouldn't trust their lives to dangerous horses. Yeah they're hot though. My horse is anything BUT stupid or dangerous.

Mine developed a real fear from the ulcer pain and we're working through that now. I've spent the last 20 or sao rides re-teaching her that she doesn't need to panic when we trot or canter, because the pain won't be there. She's smart and she trusts me. Did a trail this weekend where we had to cross a 12" wide ledge on top of a rock quarry. Any mistake and you're going 100 feet straight to the bottom. She went right over it like a champ. When you have a real relationship with an Arab where they can read you like a book, and you can read them, I think you've reached the pinacle of horse ownership.

[QuillcoteFarm]

The mare in the original post is lovely! Many congratulations on her approval, that is wonderful!! You can sure be a proud mamma! :D :)

I think my Arabian mare redefined the word hot. Sheesh. But she's halter lines so I guess that's just genetics. http://www.hphoofcare.com/PADRONAbath3.jpg and http://www.hphoofcare.com/Padrona%20Canter.jpg. And there's a pic of her under saddle in my profile.

She's great though, a real sweet girl. Tons of talent and athleticism, extremely smart, great recovery scores, and boy can she burn up the trail. She's almost 6 and she's been slow to mature, mentally and physically. She's 15 hands, and I just looked at her the other day and she's butt high again! She might put on another inch or so.

She's my 2nd Arabian, and the first one was hot too but not like this one. I think hotness is just a breed tendency but personally I love it.

You just can't beat an Arabian! :D I'll always own at least one.



WOW shes beautiful!!!!

[grayarabpony]

Arabians are not spooky as a breed - it's a stereotype that really just doesn't fit. When I purchased my then 11-year old arabian mare, she was 'spooky' - because the instructor I had expected her to be that way, was unable to teach me how to get her past it, and she wasn't in a consistent program. Fast forward to having 24-7 turnout for a couple of months, then bringing her into a barn and putting her in not even full time training with someone who wasn't going to let her get away with copping out with spooks, and voila - no more spooky arab stereotype! Most of the arabians I've encountered since haven't been spooky either, with or without a program. Plenty of hot ones - and plenty of very quiet, couldn't-scare-them-with-firecrackers-under-their-bellies types as well. But spooky? Nope, not really any I can think of offhand.



Your horse is a great example of a spooking Arabian. No one here -- certainly not me -- said that they are incurable spookers.

[rainechyldes]

@greyarabpony

rainechyldes all you did was state exactly what I said earlier. Yes Arabianstend to be hot and sensitive -- oh yeah, and spooky -- why deny it? And I also said this: "Generally once you get the horse's attention and the horse is happy in his work the spookiness will disappear or greatly diminish." I'm guessing everyone missed that part? Personally I think spooking is one of the lesser problems a horse can have, by a long shot.

I wasn't picking at you, or anyone else. As in I wasn't agreeing or disagreeing with anyone's post regarding Arabians, I love em, others don't. My point was simply they are hot horses and as young'ins they tend to be a bit silly, which in some cases comes as spooky. It's kind of a given with the breed - and I didn't get why a nice post about someones mare succeeding at something devolved into an OMG they are hot and spooky train:)

Then again some of my non arab young'ins have been spooky to. so..shrug. Who knows:)

[Hiddenacresmi]

Congratulations! Very special mare and great accomplishment. You should be very proud. :)

[JGHIRETIRE]

Congratulations on your mare!!
I hope you keep us posted on the foal - looks like a very interesting cross.
I'm with you - I no longer want a HUGE horse - my TB mare is about 15'3" - perfect size for me. At my age anything over 16h is a long way to fall off. I don't bounce like I used to.:no:

[Edgar]

Ha, this is funny, I just noticed that I was caught on youtube with an Arabian mare....

A very nice one though. She is a sweetheart and well put together and like her owner said not hot and spooky and that apears to be truth. I can not speak for many other Arabians but I had another one on the farm this year that was very easy and quiet also, kids horse mentality. I had them on the farm and we bred and handled them several times.

Her movement was very good! Amazing! and my running,thanks for the compliments:) ,well I have not met a mare that out-trotted me so it would have been something if this little mare did but she tried hard. Lucky for me her 8/8 score shows I did not restrict her as she scored the same in hand as loose. The judges gave me a pretty good score too.

Escudo II is not huge, otherwise he would not be 16hh however I have not seen ridable offspring from him under 16.1hh and most between 16.1 -16.3hh just do not expect an 18 hand giant. His foals have been much like all others we had, some bigger and some smaller and similar to the mare's other offspring. With over 500 registered offspring and 9 licensed son's we have quite a track record and do not worry about size. The type is exquisite much like him on all of the foals we have from him regardless of the mares and we now see first hand why he got the highest breedvalue for ridinghorse type of any jumper stallion. We can be pretty sure this Arabian mare will have a very pretty foal next year..... congrats Tamara, it has been and adventure so far:)

[Dressage_Diva333]

I don't really see what is so appealing about breeding Arabian mares to produce horses that are registered full Hanoverian.

They are Arab crosses. They will look like what they are...

That mare's movement is very much Arabian, not really any sporthorse qualities IMO.

Out of curiosity.. why Escudo II? What are you planning to do with the foal? Don't get me wrong, I absolutly love Escudo II, but I would never breed him to an Arabian mare.

[Equine Reproduction]

I don't really see what is so appealing about breeding Arabian mares to produce horses that are registered full Hanoverian.

You've got to look at what the Arab brings to the table. The F1 cross may not be exactly what someone is looking for but a few things to consider. The Arab brings stamina, endurance, sensitivity and bone density. All desirable attributes. And, with the cross, it would produce a horse that is 1/2 Arab which would allow the owner to compete in Arab shows. There's a large number of people who like competing their Arabs and part Arabs at Arab recognized events, hence the increasing size of the Arab sporthorse market. I don't know if it's still the case, but at one time, the Arab dressage show in Arizona, I think (brain leaks) was the largest dressage show in the country. Arab people, correct me if I'm wrong.

And, the one thing I see again and again and again, what one person may like, may not be to another person's taste. It's what makes breeding such an interesting undertaking. Personally, I love having Arab/Warmblood crosses as foundation stock. As noted above, the F1 may not be my "ideal", but when you cross that back on a warmblood, you can get some truly spectacular offspring.

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

[Dazednconfused]

I don't really see what is so appealing about breeding Arabian mares to produce horses that are registered full Hanoverian.

They are Arab crosses. They will look like what they are...

That mare's movement is very much Arabian, not really any sporthorse qualities IMO.

Out of curiosity.. why Escudo II? What are you planning to do with the foal? Don't get me wrong, I absolutly love Escudo II, but I would never breed him to an Arabian mare.

a) Some people think about more than just this generation. They think about the future with their f1 crosses.

b) More options for registration of future foals. To be registered half arabian, you have to have one purebred arab parent. Let's say this mare has a filly by Escudo. If her owner wants to breed her, if she gets her registered/approved AHS, then the Escudo II filly will be able to have registered AHS offspring if bred to approved Hanoverian stallions - to get a registerable foal for the most part she would be restricted to purebred Arabian stallions.

c) It can be very helpful to get someone else's knowledgeable opinion on your horses. All the better if it opens registration options up.

I'm not sure how else you would characterize her movement besides sporthorse. Do you think the inspectors don't know what they're looking at? :confused: Do you think they would have picked her if she hadn't displayed movement suitable for a sporthorse? The whole point of crossing two horses like these is for them to look like they do. I don't think anyone said otherwise. The mare's owner already explained in previous posts what her plans were for the foal - not that it's for anyone here to judge anyway. One could do a lot worse than this cross, I can assure you :winkgrin:

[Dazednconfused]

You've got to look at what the Arab brings to the table. The F1 cross may not be exactly what someone is looking for but a few things to consider. The Arab brings stamina, endurance, sensitivity and bone density. All desirable attributes. And, with the cross, it would produce a horse that is 1/2 Arab which would allow the owner to compete in Arab shows. There's a large number of people who like competing their Arabs and part Arabs at Arab recognized events, hence the increasing size of the Arab sporthorse market. I don't know if it's still the case, but at one time, the Arab dressage show in Arizona, I think (brain leaks) was the largest dressage show in the country. Arab people, correct me if I'm wrong.

And, the one thing I see again and again and again, what one person may like, may not be to another person's taste. It's what makes breeding such an interesting undertaking. Personally, I love having Arab/Warmblood crosses as foundation stock. As noted above, the F1 may not be my "ideal", but when you cross that back on a warmblood, you can get some truly spectacular offspring.

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

Probably Scottsdale? It wouldn't surprise me - there were around 2500 horses entered this past year, but I don't know how many of those were dressage entries.

Arabian shows provide an excellent opportunity for those showing sporthorses. Not only is the quality improving, but excellent, USDF-carded judges judge the classes, there's a number of other divisions to show your horse in (sporthorse in hand, sporthorse show hack, sporthorse under saddle, not to mention all the main ring classes). I think most people would find arabian shows to be a lot of fun and the people to be very nice given the opportunity. So there is another excellent reason to breed these types of crosses. :D

[Kareen]

This is great! Congratulations :)
Agree 100% on what Equine Repro said. I was lingering about an Arab stallion for one of my favorite mares but unfortunately he died (old age...) before I could use him. And then again there aren't that many Arabs who attract me for Hano breeding. But some do and I'm glad they did approve this mare as she clearly has a lot to contribute.
att. Dressage Diva movement isn't everything. Nowadays there is an absolute excess of horses who look and move on the line as if they could do everything (at least in one discipline) but then they don't last beyond their 6th year of life or turn into nutcases when 'work' is getting more challangeing than a mere material class. This is nothing I would deem Hanoverian-specific but basically concerns any major recognized sport horse breed.
Try to follow some of the auction top sellers later on. You'll be surprised just how many of them turn into total losses eventually which is not only very sad but also a great economic loss and frustration for anyone involved.
Therefor I find it extremely important to be discriminant about health/longevity.
A flamboyant trot may do a lot but it normally does not make you win the Olympics does it?

[Equine Reproduction]

Probably Scottsdale? It wouldn't surprise me - there were around 2500 horses entered this past year, but I don't know how many of those were dressage entries.

No...It was a show that was strictly dressage. Not part of the Scottsdale Arab show...at least it didn't used to be.

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

[Hillside H Ranch]

I'm not really an Arab fan, but I actually thought this mare was very appealing. One thing you have to remember is that the Hanoverian registry hardly EVER approves an Arab mare. I actually think they are one of the stricter registries when it comes to TBs, as well. So obviously the inspectors liked what they saw; she had a very good score for any horse, not just an Arab. I think Escudo II is a great choice, because he isn't going to be on the opposite end of the spectrum from this mare regarding "type". I would consider him a smaller, more modern type stallion and think that for this mare it is a good choice. I would not want to breed her to something too heavy, or old style.

[stripes]

Thanks to everyone for their nice comments. Edgar - LOL - sorry you got caught on youtube - I really just put it there so my family in TN could see her.

To answer some questions about the Arabian shows, Dressage is a big deal at many Arabian breed shows, along with Sport Horse In Hand & Under Saddle classes. It is the largest growing division in the Arabian breed. We now have an Arabian/Half Arabian Sport Horse National Championship Show. This is separate from Arabian Nationals. In Northern Ca. we have several "A" shows that have Dressage & the Pacific Coast Arabian Sport Horse Classic is just Dressage & Sport Horse classes. We have also started a program to create prize money for SHN called SHN Payback program, please check it out, there are many WB stallions listed and anyone can buy their stud fees at 50% off (unless otherwise stated) http://www.shnpayback.com Over $46,000 was raised for this year's Nationals and this was our first year! Already more than $12,000 has been raised for next year. Stallion owners, this is a great way to get some advertising in a new market! 1 donated breeding is all it takes! All of the stallion's Arabian offspring will be eligible to win the money, plus there is money for the stallion owner with the most winning get. Its a pretty neat program.

As for my reasons for breeding Carli to Escudo II, I personally want a very pretty & competitive dressage horse for myself. I knew I wanted a WB cross, but I didn't want one that was too far off of Carli's type or too tall. Trainabilty & ridabilty were also a huge part is choosing Escudo II. I think there is a market for smaller less complicated horses that are stylish & correct & pretty. What absolutely did it for me was seeing Escudo II in person, he is everything that I wanted and more, plus he has the best ears I've ever seen on a WB! Now if that's not a reason I don't know what is! LOL. Now that she is approved I will more than likely keep breeding her to Hanoverians, as the WB Arabian cross is highly sought after in the Arabian Sport Horse world.

[Gestalt]

Stripes, congratulations, your mare is very, very lovely! I'm amazed at the 'tone' of some peoples posts. Is it jealousy? Or just bad manners?

[grayarabpony]

Neither.

[3Dogs]

I hunted Arabian crosses for years and loved them. Don't know what the AHS is looking for in mares - never have a put one throught the approval process. Seems a very nice mare and the owner has clear cut goals:

"Now that she is approved I will more than likely keep breeding her to Hanoverians, as the WB Arabian cross is highly sought after in the Arabian Sport Horse world"

Look forward to your mare's offspring and congratulations!

[FriesianX]

Well, Stripes beat me to it - but I'll second the comment, in Northern CA, the Arab sport horse show circuit is HUGE! With a half Arab, she'd be eligible to show at the Arab shows. Some of the classes rival (and even exceed) the USDF Regionals in size, and there are enough shows within an easy commute to keep Stripes and her Arab/WB cross busy all show season.

I actually think the Arabian people have done a fabulous job creating a successful show circuit for their horses and promoting the Arabs and Half Arabs. How many registries can claim such success? Some notable riders and trainers participate in these shows - they are QUITE popular, and some of the horses are very nice quality, and also show in the open shows sucessfully.

As for the F-2 cross - that would shut down the ability to show at the Arab shows (last time I checked, one requirement is that at least one parent be a purebred Arabian), but I suspect Stripes will be plenty busy showing her Escudo/Carli cross and won't want to pull her (see how I've already assumed it will be a filly?) out to have a baby for a while ;)

P.S. - Edgar should post his scores too :lol:

[grayarabpony]

[edit] I am not anti-Arabian. Spooking is a coping mechanism that many horses (and many happen to be Arabian), use to cope with a situation they are uncomfortable with. Change what is making them uncomfortable, and they stop spooking. I have already said this.

[Centuree]

Congratulations - I love Arabs and what they can bring to the table (endurance, hardiness, good bone, strong dense feet, lofty movement, etc...) Congratulations on your approval, the mare is absolutely lovely!

My first horse was a gorgeous Egyptian Arab by Silver Century. If I had pictures online, I'd post them. But he was the sweetest horse of all time that would do anything for me, including jumping around a 3'3 cross country course.

My second horse was a half Arab, who also was extremely sweet and talented. We did the 4 foot jumpers and won many dressage championships! Anyways, since then, those 2 have passed away, but I'd love to get another part Arab, but in my opinion, not enough people breed them around here :(

Good luck in your breeding program!!

[stripes]

Well, Stripes beat me to it - but I'll second the comment, in Northern CA, the Arab sport horse show circuit is HUGE! With a half Arab, she'd be eligible to show at the Arab shows. Some of the classes rival (and even exceed) the USDF Regionals in size, and there are enough shows within an easy commute to keep Stripes and her Arab/WB cross busy all show season.

I actually think the Arabian people have done a fabulous job creating a successful show circuit for their horses and promoting the Arabs and Half Arabs. How many registries can claim such success? Some notable riders and trainers participate in these shows - they are QUITE popular, and some of the horses are very nice quality, and also show in the open shows sucessfully.

As for the F-2 cross - that would shut down the ability to show at the Arab shows (last time I checked, one requirement is that at least one parent be a purebred Arabian), but I suspect Stripes will be plenty busy showing her Escudo/Carli cross and won't want to pull her (see how I've already assumed it will be a filly?) out to have a baby for a while ;)

P.S. - Edgar should post his scores too :lol:

The Arabian Sport Horse has been on the fast track for the past 10 yrs. Arabians are making quite a splash in the AA Hunter circuits a well, showing in the Large Pony Hunters and in the Jumpers. 2 that come to mind are Showgun & Russian Roulette both have had great success in Hunters & Jumpers. Hilda Gurney has been showing Arabians for years. She won the GP at SHN in 2005 & 2006 on Fancy Trick, she also competed on the open circuit with this mare and did very well - especially in the musical freestyles. I'm not saying that Arabians make the best sport horses, but they are sometimes the best choice for us ammy riders. They are light, responsive and have great work ethic. That being said - I believe the WB/Arabian crosses can be an even better choice, especially for those of us who want to show with the big boys at the open USDF shows.

On the breeding tangent... I love the idea that the judges at the inspection thought that Carli could bring something good into the Hanoverian breed. I will breed Carli again if everything goes well with this pregnancy in the hopes that her fillies will continue to be bred to Hanoverians. The idea that in some small way Arabian blood will benefit the breed is pretty cool. That being said, she'll probably produce a bunch of colts:lol:.

[grayarabpony]

ANYWAY, this thread was started as an observation on an Arabian being approved as a Hannoverian, not to congratulate stripes. Unless Joanne knows stripes, something the rest of us are somehow supposed to be aware of? Some of us gave our honest opinion (not necessarily negative) about this mare and Arabians. That's not being rude, it's called the internet.

[RedMare01]

[edit] I am not anti-Arabian. Spooking is a coping mechanism that many horses (and many happen to be Arabian), use to cope with a situation they are uncomfortable with. Change what is making them uncomfortable, and they stop spooking. I have already said this.

I think what many fail to see is what exactly spooking has to do with this thread. The topic is about an Arabian and you automatically have to correlate them with spooking? The mare in the video is lovely, congratulations to the owner. And she doesn't really seem to be spooky at all. :lol:

Caitlin

[grayarabpony]

[edit]
I never said stripes' mare was spooky. I just said that I was surprised at how high her scores were. ;) And I was countering the view that Arabians are exactly like any other breed.

[Ladybug Hill]

[edit] I never said stripes' mare was spooky. I just said that I was surprised at how high her scores were. ;) And I was countering the view that Arabians are exactly like any other breed.

HI there GAP,

I have tried to give you the benefit of the doubt in the past, but I would encourage you to go back and reread your words from this thread. I hope that you can see how you come across to some other posters. It is so difficult to communicate just through the written word on screen so you have to try a bit extra hard to sound kind and friendly even if you disagree with someone's opinion. I personally have re-written this 3 times trying to not sound snarky or mean. We all have a bad day now and then, but keep in mind how inaccurate this type of communication can be.

[Joanne]

I don't know Stripes. I love her mare and look forward to seeing her Hanarabs in the future.

Who were the judges at the inspection? I went to www.hanoverian.org and looked at past inspection scores. This mare got scores higher than some of the warmblood mares various owners talk about on these COTH forums, and higher than most mares (Hanoverian and otherwise).

[pintopiaffe]

Ladybug Hill, well said and worth the rewrites. Thank you.

[Beasmom]

Very nice mare, Stripes! I'm NOT surprised at her scores, and give props to the judges for their honest evaluation. She appears to have a lovely temperament to go along with her good looks. You're gonna to get some dandy babies from her!

It's the occasional infusion of Arab or TB blood in the warmbloods that keep them from getting heavy and dumpy. One old trainer/breeder i knew in MN said that such crosses "keep their hearts big".

[edit]

[grayarabpony]

HI there GAP,

I have tried to give you the benefit of the doubt in the past, but I would encourage you to go back and reread your words from this thread. I hope that you can see how you come across to some other posters. It is so difficult to communicate just through the written word on screen so you have to try a bit extra hard to sound kind and friendly even if you disagree with someone's opinion. I personally have re-written this 3 times trying to not sound snarky or mean. We all have a bad day now and then, but keep in mind how inaccurate this type of communication can be.

Hi Chris.

You should know that I actually had you on ignore, from snarky remarks that you made regarding my pony when I was THINKING of breeding her (which is highly unlikley, although she has some very marvelous qualities). When I read pintopiaffe's post I decided to look at your post.

In all honesty, some breeders here need to work on their presentation. You're here in part for free advertising (otherwise, why put webpages links in signatures and profiles), but it often backfires. Whether warmblood or "off" breeders, breeders on this forum often come across as very snarky and superior, even when they don't know what they are talking about. Breeders are not right about everything all of the time, far from it, and the tone of several breeders here is very unappealing. For example, I have watched breeders on this forum repeatly attack pwynnnorman, the only breeder on this forum so far to produce a FEI level horse. If I weren't so interested in breeding I'd be long gone from this forum. It's a lot like having horses and having to deal with horse people.

So, before you give me advice, please, take it yourself.

[Moderator 1]

We took this thread offline until we had time to pare out the slew of off-topic, personal commentary and insults.

Please stick to the main topic and avoid taking pot shots at each other.

Thanks,
Mod 1

[not again]

GrayArabPony:
"For example, I have watched breeders on this forum repeatly attack pwynnnorman, the only breeder on this forum so far to produce a FEI level horse."
You may want to reconsider this statement. There are quite a few breeders here who have produced FEI level horses.

[grayarabpony]

Who are they, and did their horses have a top 10 international ranking, like Theodore O'Connor?

No one else on here has had a breeding success like that and you know it. I notice you didn't deny that pwynnorman has often been attacked on this forum.

[coriander]

It's nice to see good scores for an Arab mare at an AHS inspection - it's a tough one. Thus this is an unusual event. Congrats to the owner, and to Edgar for his fine performance as well :lol:.

More respected posters than I have already pointed out what an Arab can bring to an FI cross like this and how well it could work down the line. So it's a worthwhile discussion. Let's try to keep it civil so it isn't deleted. The mods are really very generous patient about pruning threads and putting them back up (when I would have probably just closed them). Why don't we try not to abuse that generosity?

[LoveMyArabians]

My passion is the Polish bred Arabian... I do know that the Polish State Stud Farms in Poland have a large warmblood breeding program... there are some photos of their successes and here is what the caption reads..

Bialka, for example is a stallion station and they are becoming increasingly a stallion station and training center for warmblood eventing horses. They presented a selection of warm blood stallions, all containing significant Arabian blood. These stallions all have ratings and some are very high level horses. Poland has been moving up in the world of big time eventing...

Here is a link to some photographs, scroll down... http://forums.ablackhorse.com/index.php?showtopic=22318&st=480

Cindy

[allanglos]

Well, Stripes beat me to it - but I'll second the comment, in Northern CA, the Arab sport horse show circuit is HUGE! With a half Arab, she'd be eligible to show at the Arab shows. Some of the classes rival (and even exceed) the USDF Regionals in size, and there are enough shows within an easy commute to keep Stripes and her Arab/WB cross busy all show season.

I actually think the Arabian people have done a fabulous job creating a successful show circuit for their horses and promoting the Arabs and Half Arabs. How many registries can claim such success? Some notable riders and trainers participate in these shows - they are QUITE popular, and some of the horses are very nice quality, and also show in the open shows sucessfully.

As for the F-2 cross - that would shut down the ability to show at the Arab shows (last time I checked, one requirement is that at least one parent be a purebred Arabian), but I suspect Stripes will be plenty busy showing her Escudo/Carli cross and won't want to pull her (see how I've already assumed it will be a filly?) out to have a baby for a while ;)

P.S. - Edgar should post his scores too :lol:


One parent does not have to be a purebred if it is an Anglo Arabian.

And I have a three year old purebred colt that I someday hope to get approved in a Warmblood book down the road (Preferably Selle Francais as my anglos are registered SF). But I have awhile to decide as he is just a month now into dressage training:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFD5NM9vpfY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETjbiJRz3mA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDBCgHyREEU

[LoveMyArabians]

Quote from FriesianX...

I actually think the Arabian people have done a fabulous job creating a successful show circuit for their horses and promoting the Arabs and Half Arabs. How many registries can claim such success? Some notable riders and trainers participate in these shows - they are QUITE popular, and some of the horses are very nice quality, and also show in the open shows successfully.

This is a great comment... it has been a long haul for the visionaries that had started all of this many years ago... finally there is recognition even with-in our own breed to accept that our Arabians are great Sport Horses. It has been a real struggle. Hard to fight change, hard to fight the almighty trainer's dollars and power of main ring. : )

Cindy