"Working Student": Who, what, when, where, & why! [Archive]

tx3dayeventer

Oct. 20, 2008, 11:50 AM

Question for all you experienced trainers out there...

PLUS! Can I hear from anyone who's BEEN a working student! What did you like? What did you hate?

Thanks everyone, in advance!

I was a working student for Jim Graham for 4 years from 17 1/2 to 21 y.o. The hours were REALLY long (we averaged 90+ hours a week). Days off were scarce. The housing provided was icky (but he has a new house there now, of course after I left:D). The instruction and learning was AMAZING!!!! I would gladly do it again!

I already cliniced with him and went to his farm for the summers so it was a natural fit to stay the summer after I graduated from HS. WE did not get paid. We paid $600 a month for 1 horse. But when you think his lessons run $100/per lesson we were actually saving money!!! We got at least 3 or 4 lessons a week (when he was home and not judging, clinicing, etc). We got coaching at shows included. We did have to take care of and braid his horses at shows but WORTH IT!!

All in all I would not change those four years for anything in the world!!!!

Oldenburg Mom

Oct. 20, 2008, 11:57 AM

tx3dayeventer

Oct. 20, 2008, 12:04 PM

So,...tx3dayeventer, ... sorry to ask this, but...how did you live? I mean, he gave your three squares, right? I'm not trying to pry into your personal finances,...but what did you do for ... shampoo, popcorn, and gummi bears (:lol:) — those things we all can't live without!!! :lol:

Actually, he provided us with a trailer house. We had to provide our own meals. My parents were VERY generous, as were 99% of the other WS's parents in paying for EVERYTHING else. I guessed they figured in what they were saving on lessons and coaching, they could cover the rest. However, there was one girl I shared a room with that had NO outside support and was doing it on her own. She was B pony clubber and taught lots of lessons in the evening while we covered for her at the barn. She also hit the streets and got some sponsors to help with her costs. Jim was VERY understanding that she needed to make some money to pay her costs and worked with her on her "work hours". Sometimes she came in late b/c she taught an early lesson or something. She also had some paid rides. People LOVED having their horses in training with Jim even though he wasn't riding it.

However, we did have Thanksgiving up at his house for those of us that did not fly home for the holidays. We aslo had Xmas & Boxing Day meals :D

Oldenburg Mom

Oct. 20, 2008, 12:24 PM

Ah, I suspected as much...but didn't want to assume. It must have been a lot like paying for college...in fact, it was a higher education (and I mean that seriously!)

If you were going to hire a working student, what would *you* offer?

tx3dayeventer

Oct. 20, 2008, 12:33 PM

I would offer free board on 1 horse (not including alfalfa, supplements, special feed, etc. [basically anything that the other horses weren't getting]), a place to live, and lessons. Depends on the "caliber" of the trainer is whether I would expect them to pay. Jim is a USET selector/4* rider/"O" judge/ etc. so I would expect to pay for the privilege of riding with him. If I, personally, was going to have a working student I would not pay them or expect them to pay. They would work everything off. There is enough time in the evenings for a waitressing job/teaching lessons if needed. I would also allow them to have training rides that the owner paid board on (rider gets money but she pays me board, make sense?) for some extra cash.

Oldenburg Mom

Oct. 20, 2008, 12:41 PM

Yes, makes a lot of sense. How would you handle shows? Whether dressage/eventing or h/j?

tx3dayeventer

Oct. 20, 2008, 12:51 PM

Yes, makes a lot of sense. How would you handle shows? Whether dressage/eventing or h/j?

What do you mean by handle shows?

If it is what I am thinking... [and this is what I used to have to do for JG]

I would include all coaching/trailering if they needed it and they (the WS) would need to do the same chores they do at home (stalls, buckets, water, feed, groom, sweep, clean tack, etc) as well as hand walk, polish brass, braid, etc etc.

Once home from show... they would need to unload the trailer, clean it out, clean all tack, wash pads, etc and then restock trailer with stuff normally kept in there once clean for next show.

If they had a training ride....
I would work with them on the coaching fees, although most owners will cover these as well as entry fees. If not, the horse usually does not get shown.

Did that answer your question?

fizzyfuzzybuzzy

Oct. 20, 2008, 12:52 PM

As a former working student for many teachers, from Lendon Grey (who has a similar program to tx3dayeventer, but no boarding if you have your own horse) to some smaller town but good trainers to 4* event rider. The most important thing to me is, if you say you are going to do something when you hire the person, DO IT! If daily lessons on thier horse is part of thier compensation, don't let it fall to the wayside EVER. Even if they say it's ok, it's NOT ok. If they are too tired to ride, offer a training ride. Otherwise, you won't keep a student more than a couple of months. I never worked harder than when I worked with the eventer, but I LOVED every minute of it, since she understood that education was also part of the deal, and would teach me any spare moment we had. Even standing at the rail with me at shows and pointing out positives and negatives of the other riders. We also became good friends, we had a good give and take, and that's important as well. The rest of the details were not as important to me.

Saidapal

Oct. 20, 2008, 01:47 PM

Oldenburg Mom

Oct. 20, 2008, 01:56 PM

Working student for a dressage instructor one summer. No money pay, housing (a room) and meals provided. Board on my horse and one lesson a day six days a week.

Learned alot. Worked my a## off. Wouldn't do it again. I landed in a miserable situation and was glad to get out of there.

Saidapal,

What went wrong...if you can write about it. Was it the personalities ... too much work? Not enough time off? What did you learn the most about?

Oldenburg Mom

Oct. 20, 2008, 01:59 PM

The most important thing to me is, if you say you are going to do something when you hire the person, DO IT! If daily lessons on their horse is part of their compensation, don't let it fall to the wayside EVER. Even if they say it's ok, it's NOT ok.

If they are too tired to ride, offer a training ride. Otherwise, you won't keep a student more than a couple of months.

Yes, this is what I've found, generally speaking, not with a working student arrangement, as I've never been there. But people doing what they say they're going to do ... well, that's a snowball in hell!!!

What's a training ride?

2DogsFarm

Oct. 20, 2008, 02:00 PM

Closest I came to WS was at a boarding/lesson barn where I cared for the school horses in exchange for lessons.
So many hours worked = a lesson with my trainer.

I learned a lot about horse care, feeding, grooming, caring for tack.
Also worked in the office scheduling lessons on occasion.
They stabled carriage horses there so I picked up some info on drafts and harness as well.

I was an adult (mid-30s) at the time and lived within public transportation distance of the barn, so no housing was needed.
I'd do it again if I found the right place.

BCEVENTER

Oct. 20, 2008, 02:40 PM

Did a summer as a sort-of-working student. Wouldn't do it again. Was NOT worth it at all. I paid board and had to drive to and from the barn everyday 45 mins away (one way). I paid for everything exculding lessons. Trainer was not clear about what was expected and so neither of us ended up happy. I have since learned that I was not the first one with this problem.

Oldenburg Mom

Oct. 20, 2008, 03:02 PM

Saidapal

Oct. 20, 2008, 03:22 PM

Saidapal,

What went wrong...if you can write about it. Was it the personalities ... too much work? Not enough time off? What did you learn the most about?

Trying to answer this question has made me realize how bitter I still am after all these years, so please overlook the tone.

Fact one - I still had to work part time to pay my living expenses (car payment, car insurance, deodorant, shampoo - basic stuff). When we talked beforehand she said she understood. In reality she didn't like it.

Fact two - I had taken clinics with her before taking the offer and she knew my horse. From day one she hated my horse. Didn't feel like she had any talent (true or not she could have said so beforehand).

Fact three - Basically I hadn't realized until I was there that I had somehow agreed to be her slave. (Note: I don't mind hard work - I have five acres now I take care of all by myself along with three horses - and I was a lot younger then.)

Fact four - She talked behind all the students backs, and because of it I was never able to really fit in with the other students. She was always pitting us against each other. (Realized this in hindsight.)

I was planning on staying indefinitely to learn as much as I could. After two months I loaded up my horse and came home. I learned afterwards that very few of her full time students stayed for long. Ask around before you go, don't just believe what the person tells you. I have heard of good experiences, but most of the ones I've heard about have been like mine. Too much for too little about sums it up. I think it would have worked out better if I hadn't lived there because it gave her too much control over my life. The part time students seemed to fare better and were able to escape every day. I wasn't.

Oldenburg Mom

Oct. 20, 2008, 03:34 PM

Saidapal

Oct. 20, 2008, 03:59 PM

I admit this was just from my perspective, but I tried to talk to her once and that was pretty much when I realized it was time to go home. BCEventer stated it pretty clearly - there was no communication. I think she was looking for someone with money and a super fine horse who could help her increase her business, and she settled for me so neither of us were happy.

MissintheSouth

Oct. 20, 2008, 04:41 PM

My experience as a working student:

What's the "deal" you've offered? Housing included, no pay (but free lessons and shipping, training at shows). Responsibilities included barn work, riding horses, showing some but not a whole lot, lots of grooming/jump crew work at shows, braiding, lunging, wrapping, etc. Rode 2-4 horses per day, 6 days/week. The position lasted a summer (I was in college). The position did not include bringing my own horse (I didn't have one so it wasn't an issue for me).
What's the age? I was 19
Where did you find one? I found this trainer (not a BNT but regular show attending, busy barn, and shows 2/month in the summer) through my old trainer who knew she was looking for someone.
How has it/did it work out? Great experience, it was worth it! Lots of work but I learned more than I ever would have just riding my own horse and being a client only.
How long did it take you to find one? I looked for about 3 months.

Now I am helping my trainer find a working student for WEF this year. We have someone lined up, so here is the experience we have had so far with that:

What's the "deal" you've offered? Living expenses (rent) included but meals not included except at shows where she is working full time. No pay, but there will be time for her to work part time on her days off at one of the vendor booths which we will help her arrange if she likes. Duties include daily barn work (feed, muck stalls, manage barn), grooming, riding 2-5 horses/day 5x week with 2 days partly off (no barn work). Benefits include horsemanship & riding experience, lessons, training at shows, clinic with BNT on one of the barn horses, and the experience of being at WEF.
What's the age? 18
Where did you find one? I have known her since I was in college
How has it/did it work out? Stay tuned.
How long did it take you to find one? She approached us so we didn't look at all.

MissintheSouth

Oct. 20, 2008, 04:49 PM

Saidapal,

That sounds like a bad situation from: "From day one she hated my horse."

How can anyone in the "business" hate a horse? Every horse has something to teach, no matter how broken down, no matter how poor the conformation,... no matter what.

There may be horses I LIKE more than others, but there are none I hate. And a working student does not equal a slave.

Lord have mercy, why can't people just respect each other. *sigh*

Just one thing to add - I would be very careful if you are looking for a position that you are clear about that trainer's views and teaching/riding style. Everyone is different, and as a kid I wasn't really able to objectively look at someone and say "thanks, you are very talented rider/trainer, but you just aren't a good fit for me" and walk away. I would see a successful trainer/program and would contort my own feelings and views to be able to justify riding/working for them. As I got older I realized that these situations always ended in my driving home from a show with tears in my eyes and a chip knocked off my confidence. It's much harder to walk away once you are working for someone that you have core disagreement with.

Elys

Oct. 20, 2008, 05:13 PM

My experience was similar to Saidapal's. I had to work a part time job just to cover basic bills and the BO and BM said that it was fine, but they were actually not fine with it. We were 45 minutes from the nearest town, so I had to do my grocery shopping at 11:30 at night after the PT job and then had to drive home and be up at 7 to feed. Between both jobs I was working 80-90 hours per week and did not have any time off (not even a half day or evening to hang out with friends, or just "chill") for the 4 months I was there. In the words of the BM, "I need to use you while I have you" for why I didn't get time off. (like I was a piece of equipment) One night about 2 months in, I got done in time to watch my favorite TV show (first TV I had time to watch in 2 months) and I actually cried I was so happy.

The whole time I was there, I did not recieve a single complete lesson to improve my riding. I was already well versed in horse care, so I had really wanted to improve my riding. The most instruction I got was when I was on some of her horses in training and she would give me little tips and tidbits. Most of the training issues we had, I figured out on my own.

Basically a lot was promised and not followed through on. And I was a slave. When I finally called it quits and went home (15 hours away), my mom freaked out and said it looked like I had a terminal illness. My face was all sunken and I had dark circles under my eyes. I literally slept for 2 days straight.

Sad part was, I did like the BM, and I did enjoy myself at times while I was there. Mostly when she'd let me take my own horse out on a ride, which was usually twice a week. Part of the problem was the BO too...he was a little psycho and made things more than difficult.

So my advice:
-Iron out all the details before hand and stick to it.
-Teach the student. So many barns forget that they are there to learn, not just work.
-Keep the work level reasonable and give them some time off every now and then.
-I truly believe that most issues can be solved if the BO/BM will just put themselves in the students' shoes every now and then.

Sorry it all was so wordy. Hope this helps! Good luck!:D

outwestPoloPlayer

Oct. 20, 2008, 06:25 PM

What's the "deal" you've offered? Housing included, board on one horse, 5 day work week (approx 50 hours/week), and $1500 month. In exchange, I fed, rode 2 to 5 horses per day including my own, tacked, cleaned tack, raked the arena, did turnout, set courses, etc. I didn't do any mucking. I had a lesson most days, sometimes on my own horse, sometimes on a client horse. Some days I had a couple of lessons and some days, I didn't have any. I was also the one who got called in to ride any horse that was a problem. The majority of the riders were very self-suficient but if one of the horses tossed their rider on the trail and they wanted someone else to work them through it, I was up!

The trainer in question was a 4* eventer but not one of the top household names. She is very well known in that region of the country and has been short-listed for the team, won Rolex a few times, featured in Practical Horsemen and COTH, etc. A great knowledge base.

What's the age? I was 22 and had just graduated from college-- still wasn't sure what I really wanted to do so I did this for approximately 6 months while I figured things out.

Where did you find one? In the Chronicle of the Horse

How has it/did it work out? Honestly it was a great experience and really one of the only working student experiences that I think someone without other financial means could do. The trainer understood that we all had bills to pay and provided a salary so that you didn't have to run yourself ragged working a zillion hours per week. She tended to keep people long term (the woman I replaced had been there 10 years and left to compete at Rolex). That said, people at that level can be perfectionists and, although I ended up being quite good friends with the trainer, it was tough in the beginning.

BCEVENTER

Oct. 20, 2008, 06:40 PM

I think alot of my bitterness toward my situation also comes from not being able to work with any other horses than my own, at all. Not one. I tacked up her horse once for her. That was it. I was kinda more like a working slave, not student. Even if I didn't get to ride, I would have been happy lunging, pulling manes, etc.

FuelsterFarm

Oct. 20, 2008, 07:46 PM

I spent 2 years from age 22-24 with a BNT in CA, it was an interesting situation. There were three of us WS and usually between 18 and 20 horses. No turnout. Labor that cleaned stalls. Our 6 day a week job was to get each horse out of their stall for work about an hour per day. Our day off was Sunday, which meant that the horses were in their stalls an extra 24 hours without a break. Of course, we still had to feed 3x each Sunday, which meant not going too far. I almost never left for more than a couple of hours as I could not let "my" horses sit in their stalls.

Pay was $300 per month. Housing provided in an OK guest house without heat, TV or even a radio. Meals were to be provided for us, but consisted of only dinner each evening (the same thing nearly every day) - we had to scrounge through leftovers for any other food or take it out of our own money as the owners ate most meals out.

One of us had to drive the BNT's daughters to and from school and extracurricular activities, another had to clean the kitchen, the third had to iron all of the BNT's shirts. We worked together to keep the arena and grounds in good shape, stack hay, clean tack, organize the house and office, take dictation for BNT's upcoming book, etc. The days were really long!

We had a group lesson 5x per week. I hated it, but felt that I couldn't leave beacuse of the horses and the kids, to whom I had grown very close.

My second gig was with another really BNT in FL from ages 25-27.

Pay was $400 per month and I had my own efficiency apartment in a really nice place. Moped also included. (How I loved that pink moped)!

Lessons were to be given 5x per week, but almost never happened. I did get to hack out and school some GP horses and some up and coming talents, but was lucky to get 1 lesson per week. I also watched BNT riding, coaching her students (as my time allowed) and watched some other BNT's coaching. Got to go to some really big shows (to watch, rather than riding as I was told I would be).

Worked ridiculously long hours, rarely with a day off as my to do list got longer as time went by (you name it - picking up clients from the airport, pulling manes, turnout, daily bathing of horses, laundry for horses and BNT, holding horses for farrier and massage therapist, tacking up and down for most clients, running personal errands for clients as well as BNT, etc). Was a virtual slave. Loved the people and the place, but this was not what I had in mind.

In my experience, it was indeed like paying for college all over again, but without gaining as much educationally. The other WS's that I know had generous parents and were able to bring their own horses along (in both situations, the WS had to pay for boarding, which negated any pay we recieved). Had I been able to work another job, I would have done the same, but with the workload and the need to sleep once in a while, it would have been virtually impossible.

I would do it again simply for the exposure to a side of the business I would not have been able to see otherwise. As far as improving my own riding, I would not take the same track.

fizzyfuzzybuzzy

Oct. 20, 2008, 10:33 PM

A training ride was when my coach rode my horse, instead of me getting a lesson. I liked her to ride him, so she knew what he felt like, where he was in his training, a different way of doing something that would get a better result.

Edited to add: I'm not sure if you are the one hiring the WS or the WS, but in addition to getting a training ride if no lesson, if the training ride isn't possible, there should be some sort of monetary compensation for EVERY missed session, agreed upon in writing in advance.

je.suis

Oct. 20, 2008, 11:04 PM

well, allow me to add a story from back in the day. as a working student for a famous grand prix rider, one was given housing (in a practically condemed house) and a schooling maybe once per week on your own horse. no meals, no pay. as a matter of fact, the monthly board bill was $1,000 which was a discount from regular student's board. your job duties included tacking up, riding client's horses (sometimes 2 or three/day) cleaning tack, grooming. every once in a while, you'd be lucky enough and he's sit on your horse and give it a school for you. .....and we were thrilled to death to be there,showing, working hard and knowing we were riding with one of the best in the world. one w.s had 3 horses. yes, $3000/mo board bill. we knew there were alot of riders who wanted our jobs so we sucked it up and learned a lot. i was quite a bit younger then !!!!

nightsong

Oct. 20, 2008, 11:45 PM

I did it for a brief while. No housing or meals provided; I kept my townhouse. ALL I DID was clean stalls. No feeding or turnout, those were for higher-level employees. ALL I GOT were group lessons a couple of time a week with a snarky employee and ONE lecture on how much to feed a boarding horse that I KNEW was WRONG (start every horse on two pounds of grain a day) and that Thoroughbreds and Arabs were the best endurance riidng horses. WTF???. ANd I quit my PAYING job for this???

Oldenburg Mom

Oct. 21, 2008, 08:18 AM

Edited to add: I'm not sure if you are the one hiring the WS or the WS, but in addition to getting a training ride if no lesson, if the training ride isn't possible, there should be some sort of monetary compensation for EVERY missed session, agreed upon in writing in advance.

Looking FOR a WS, but don't want to go into any detail as it would conflict with advertising.

I am reading all of the posts very carefully as I think they are VERY important views. Most of all, with any sort of "arrangement" clear boundaries need to be drawn, and (to use an old Wall Street expression) expectations managed. THAT'S what I hear most of you saying.

Actually, I think the MOST important point is very simple: a WS is not a slave, they are there to learn. Really learn. Having said that, so far I have learned that most students SAY they'd be willing to do ... well, whatever, but when it comes down to it? When they have to show up, do the work, etc., there's always a problem. FizzyFuzzyBunny said it best: The most important thing to me is, if you say you are going to do something when you hire the person, DO IT!True true true. But it must be from BOTH sides...

I think the best solution to all this is simple: a written agreement. As a WS you are responsible for: x,y,z. As the trainer I am responsible for: a,b,c. Once a week there should be 30-second (or longer if necessary) "You ok—any complaints?" from both sides.

I'd love to hear from anyone that's HIRED a WS. How did it work out?

findeight

Oct. 21, 2008, 11:54 AM

Judging from the endless stream that has come thru barns I have been in, expectations and definitions need to be etched in stone and understood ahead of time.

Owner needs to understand the WS is not a barn slave and is trading labor for learning in more or less equal percentage. It is not a way to get free barn help.

WS needs to understand labor needs to be provided to earn the learning. Also helps if WS is at a riding level to perform the riding duties without constant supervision, this is not a place to learn basic skills in the saddle or barn mangement basics-need to bring that to the table.

IME those with their own horses did not really have much time left for them and the best WS didn't bring them. Those that did, did not last as they did not realize what was actually involved was not an ongoing clinic for them and their horse.

Strikes me that trading labor for both board and housing for self plus a meal allowance is a stretch when the job they are mimicking pays less then those would add up to if you just hired somebody. Therefore expectation of that is usually met with disappointment when it does not happen.

Look at it this way, if the barn charges 800 a month just for board and $50 a pop for lessons which the working student thinks they will be getting 3 days a week, they better be prepared to work $1200 a month off...add housing on top (even cheap)? It gets unrealistic.

UNCeventer

Oct. 21, 2008, 12:21 PM

I have been looking for a little bit.

I am a college grad as well as a Graduate A in PC. I have bills to pay and would therefore need some kind of salary, housing and board. I am wanting to take some time to ride before I go to grad school. I have found some of these that are offered, but sadly, they are all filled. I am willing to work hard, but like some of you have already mentioned, I want to learn more about riding. I would love to be able to ride my horse (a lesson everyday is not necessary- but every other day), and then ride and get lessons on other horses too. I would also love to go to the shows and groom (maybe ride depending on the show).

I worked for a not BNT and although there was no salary, I had housing, board for the horse, and meals. There was an opportunity for me to teach the local PC and housesit for xtra money. She gave me a lesson almost every day. We had 2 small barns. I was responsible for feeding and blanketing, etc one barn and when I finished, I went to help her finish the other barn. Sometimes it included doing stalls, sometimes grooming, sometimes picking pastures. I was able to get a few lessons on her horses while she rode another horse. Sometimes she would tell me to go do trot sets on horse x and y. I learned a lot, but I also didnt have as many bills to pay as I do now.

Lucassb

Oct. 21, 2008, 12:37 PM

Years ago, I was a WS for a MNT. I got housing (in a much nicer than average house) board for one horse, and a small salary which allowed me to cover basic expenses (meals, clothing, gas.) It was a fairly unusual situation in that it was at a private farm with only a handful of clients (all friends of the owner.) I did a lot of grooming type work - tacking and untacking for the trainer, including any kind of prep (longe, hand walk etc) that was required. If the owner rode, I tacked up for her, might get on first to warm the horse up, and stayed to set jumps for her, taking the horse from her when she was finished. I did the after care (bathing, wrapping, etc) after she or the trainer rode. Also pitched in to help with barn chores - I fed several mornings a week (when I had the early shift) and helped with turnout. If we were short handed for some reason (groom out sick for example) I would help with stalls, but that was fairly rare. I did a lot of work on the sales horses, who often came in looking a bit rough. They'd get bathed, clipped, manes pulled, and rubbed on until they looked like show horses - at which point I often got to have lessons on them as part of their evaluation and fitness program. Got to hack out regularly on a really stunning piece of property, too, which was lovely. I did not get lessons on my own horse - who always got ridden last, after all the other work was done - but I did get training on the sales horses. I guess the thought was that it was more worthwhile to school the sales horse and the fact that I got anything out of it was a bonus!

I did also have responsibility for the tack room, customer lounge and office which were to be kept immaculate at all times.

I really enjoyed it and still use a lot of what I learned back then on a regular basis. I never wanted to do it as a career, though... even back then I knew I wanted to ride as an amateur and keep the horses for fun, not as a job.

Oldenburg Mom

Oct. 21, 2008, 12:56 PM

Wow, I am learning so much from this thread. Thanks, everyone, for contributing. Anyone who is looking for a WS ought to print this out and save it!!! :yes:

Lucas (how the heck are you girl????) that sounded like a very nice setup ... EXCEPT, you didn't get any training on your horse. I think the student should be respected. Training on WS's horse? Training on client's horses/horses in training? Let the student make the choice ...

UNCeventer, good luck with your search. It sound like, from what former WS's have written on this thread, that your expectations are pretty reasonable.

I did it for a brief while. No housing or meals provided; I kept my townhouse. ALL I DID was clean stalls. No feeding or turnout, those were for higher-level employees. ALL I GOT were group lessons a couple of time a week with a snarky employee and ONE lecture on how much to feed a boarding horse that I KNEW was WRONG (start every horse on two pounds of grain a day) and that Thoroughbreds and Arabs were the best endurance riidng horses. WTF???. ANd I quit my PAYING job for this???

Nightsong, sorry, I'm not laughing AT you, but your last comment...And I quit my PAYING job for this??? made me smile. How many times have I thought the same thing .... whoooboy, yes. AND, I'm getting paid for my current job ... :lol:

Zen and Horses

Oct. 21, 2008, 09:46 PM

I have views from both sides, having been and had working students. Of my own WS experiences I can honestly say I was a sucker and was simply taken advantage of. The horse business is hard and most successful professionals have no sympathy for the weak, naive, and not-so-savvy. I refuse to repeat upon others the ways in which I have been mistreated, many of which have already been described by others on this thread.

In taking on WS I find the biggest factor in a successful outcome is accurately sizing up the temperment of the prospect (kind of like looking at young horses. Not so politically correct, but true.) Some charming young ladies are so charming they are willing to charm their way into a better (or more entertaining) situation as soon as they meet the BNT you yourself may train with. (Been there.)

Some sweet girls love the horses but cannot really comprehend the physical demands of the lifestyle. (Suburban life and 2 riding lessons per week have in NO WAY prepared them for living with the dirt, dust, blisters, sore backs, stomped toes, oozy wounds, and mounds of sweaty tack.)

Some arrogant folks figure if they can ride the broncs up the street from their uncle Bob's house, they can ride any ol' six figure horse in your barn too. They refuse to admit them six figure 'nags require a different style of riding from their usual 'skin'o'my'teeth' xcountry bareback with a halter and lead system of horse training.

Some folks are not prepared to deal with the often times unfair nature of the business. (Yes, Blane and Bethany and their former Grand Prix horses will be in your training level dressage or Level 0 jumper class, and yes they will beat you. Get used to it. It will happen a lot.)

I recall having read Lendon Grey in an article saying the briefest stint she'd ever had from a working student was a matter of hours.

Like a lot of facets of the horse business, be prepared to work a lot on finding a good WS. Prepare to be disappointed. Be prepared for the WS to come up lame, crazy, or burnt out. (I recommend radiographs, a drug test, and try the 'flex' test where you fold her in half backwards for 60 seconcds and see if she can still jog off on a hard surface carrying a 50 lb sack of grain... ) Welcome to yet another fantastically steep learning curve!!

Lucassb

Oct. 21, 2008, 10:30 PM

Lucas (how the heck are you girl????) that sounded like a very nice setup ... EXCEPT, you didn't get any training on your horse. I think the student should be respected. Training on WS's horse? Training on client's horses/horses in training? Let the student make the choice ...

Hey! I'm good!... how are you!!?

It actually WAS a really good set up. And I liked it well enough that I actually graduated and became the FT barn manager there for a while, which I enjoyed.

FWIW, I didn't really worry too much about not getting lessons on my own horse (and the deal I negotiated was for "lessons"... not "lessons on my own horse," so it was all on the up and up.) It was actually useful to get training on the other horses, which I then got to play around with and apply to my solo riding on my own horse, without too much concern about messing something up on a sale horse in front of clients. Some riding and experimenting with those techniques without the trainer standing there every second was very good practice.

Across Sicily

Oct. 22, 2008, 12:01 AM

I was an apprentice (same as ws, kinda) at a very BNT's barn for a year. I came in having already been assistant trainer to a lesser known, but still BNT. I was paid $100 per week with meals, housing, and a car provided. (I did not have my own, car use was v sporadic) I brought a horse too which was free to me.

My duties included mucking out in the mornings along with the rest of the help, graining if the trainer (he liked to feed most days) hadn't already gotten to it, then I was assistant to one of the 3 trainers (all big names under the same roof operating as the same barn, very common in my breed). She specialized in my chosen discipline and is very, very good at it. Duties under her included care of 10+ (it varied) horses, including grooming, their health, sheath cleaning, bathing, clipping, tacking up, etc etc etc. I did much of the groundwork and she would usually ride or drive. Around noon me (I was only WS) or another employee would hay horses, afternoons would finish up working horses (other trainers had 10 ish horses in their strings as well) then usually involve ourselves in some sort of special project, cleaning the barn or washing the arena walls or re-painting assorted outbuildings (I liked doing that, actually, it was kind of fun and a nice change). Later in the afternoon I was usually responsible (if someone else didn't get to it first, but it was mostly my domain) for letting all the broodmares and foals in, feeding/watering the broodmare barn, and cleaning it (not mucking, just raking aisles and such). Also my job to make sure there was plenty of hay in that particular building. Then we would feed main barn and pasture-kept horses and sweep up in the main barn. Usually lessons would begin around this time and I tended to teach 1-3 of them per day, the trainer I worked under was the instructor and she taught about as many. (Weekends were different; she taught lessons most of the day and I worked horses. If she was gone I taught all of the lessons.) We would usually close up around 7 at night, sometimes later if we had a really late lesson. (oh how I hated those) When I had my original horse there I rode her after everything was done. I sold her during my time there and got a new show horse; he was kind of integrated into my trainer's string and was worked during the day.

For the most part, I was treated very well. At my previous position (assist. trainer) my employer was supposed to provide me with meals and money at horse shows and never did; there was one show I simply neglected to bring my money with me and mostly went hungry for five days - horrible. Wouldn't do that again. (It's why I quit) Anyway, at this place I ate well, was entertained well (the trainers and I all shared this enormous, gorgeous house) and bonded with most of the people there (save for crotchety old head trainer - he's a piece of work).

I wouldn't so much get lessons as my trainer would say 'hey, come ride or drive this horse' and work with me that way. She would give me lessons with my horse (who was a project and bought as such). She was very good, very patient and to this day I think she is the best at what she does.

I worked very hard, but we all did, especially my trainer. She was out there later than anyone else (except me, I stayed with her) and really worked her butt off. She is extremely successful in the showring.

I finished out with an offer for a permanent position and an opportunity to move up as trainer once crotchety head trainer retires. :) Don't know yet if I'll do it, but it is a wonderful offer nonetheless, considering who these trainers are. I left to go back to college and kept my horse in training there. I usually work horse shows for them, not only to work off my horse's entry fees etc but because I admire and respect them and have so much fun with them! I am planning to return this summer. (college gets in the way!)

vanillabean

Oct. 22, 2008, 12:02 AM

Chiming in here from the positive side- We get free board, lessons 5x a week on own horse, housing, and small salary. With very good trainer who is experienced in producing professionals.
I've heard of other similar set ups as well, so I know they are out there.
But it is the kind of situation that people can stay in for years as they develop as riders. It isn't easy, but it isn't impossible, either.
The hardest thing is to find a young person (speaking for my peers;-) ) who is actually willing to work hard, and wants to learn, and can keep their head on straight.

LisaB

Oct. 22, 2008, 08:24 AM

Never been a ws but been around plenty of outfits that allow ws.
Okay, first and foremost, you need to have a full time trainer at your facility. Especially if they are working on your babies. And you can't expect a certain 'someone' to be consistent with this. In your situation, the ws is going to be farm help mostly and then working with youngsters, they need to understand this. Most ws don't realize that most of the time is spent on the ground, not in the saddle. There's a ton to learn about horsemanship and then there's just the monotony of stall cleaning. But that's life and they need to know that.
I would say if you want a ws, I would put it more like after school and weekend help. In your area, you should find some kid who's good with horses to help you out and take instruction from someone.

Tamsin

Oct. 22, 2008, 10:17 PM

I was never a working student myself, but my daughter was for a year. In her situation, she received free room (in the trainer's house) and free meals, but no pay. She took her horse with her and had to pay $500/month in board which we were told was a reduced rate. Her work included all of the usual barn chores, riding 3-4 horses a day, grooming at shows, and doing whatever else around the farm she was asked to do. She received several lessons each week and the trainer took a genuine interest in her progress. So it was basically a good situation, at least compared to the experiences others have described.

However, the hours were EXTREMELY long. She worked 14 hours each day six days a week. She usually got one day off a week, but sometimes even this was spent with the horses if they were at a show or her own horse needed attention. So this amounts to working 84+ hours a week, every week. She had no time to keep in touch with friends or engage in any kind of recreation--they finished late in the evening, ate, showered, slept, and got up the next morning at 6 am and did it all again. No wonder working students end up "lame, crazy, or burnt out" as a previous poster said. How many of you would like to work as someone's employee doing physical labor 84 hours/week for no pay?

I think it's too bad that most working student positions have become these extreme jobs that seem designed to demoralize and discourage even the most enthusiastic young women. Would it be so hard for trainers/BO to adopt a more humane work schedule for their students?

petesperson

Oct. 23, 2008, 07:04 AM

I haven't read all the replies but will throw in my 2 cents from long ago... I worked for a summer when I was 21 as a WS for a BN hunter/eq T... The deal was no housing, meals or board, but $125/week and reimbursement for gas (I drove 35 miles to get to the barn)... I mucked, fed, groomed, turned out, cleaned tack, readied clients' horses for lessons, and did some rehab of a horse coming back from layup (hand walking and light hacking), plus groundskeeping (sweeping, raking, weeding of flower beds, manure spreading... the latter being the really plumb assignment because you got to sit down, albeit on the broken tractor seat!)... I rarely went to shows because I was at the bottom of the totem pole (and wasn't that keen b/c I theoretically had a boyfriend... although I rarely saw him during this stint)... I worked 10-11 (or 12) hours a day, 6 days a week, and sometimes went a couple of weeks without a day off... I was supposed to get lessons, but I think I had only 1 or 2... the trainer was pregnant (which I didn't know when hired), and between her pregnancy and show schedule and other stuff, she was rarely in the barn... I lost 20 lbs in a matter of weeks (I was down to about 100 lbs on a 5'6" frame)... and my trainer scoffed at my loose clothes and asked if I was spending my pay on groceries! (in fact, I had very little money after rent, utilities, car ins and was sometimes too tired to eat what food I had!)... after 3.5 months, I quit (to work in an office job with health insurance), and the trainer was genuinely shocked! Not a very good learning experience, other than learning I could work like a dog and survive, sorta!