Need Advice; Horse Sale Gone Bad (long, sorry)

[whitehorse8]

I need some advice. I sold a horse in May to a guy who showed up, rode him for maybe 30 minutes and decided to buy him and take him home on the spot.

[coloredhorse]

In your shoes, I'd be inclined to consult a good contract law attorney and tell the buyer: "Fire away." Or better yet, have the attorney contact the buyer.

Did you disclose the horse's history, as described in your post, to the buyer in writing? That will certainly help. (Emails count as "in writing.") What may also help your case is if you have others who can attest to the horse's rideability and your assessment of him ... trainers, other knowledgeable horse people, etc. The fact that such a long time elapsed between the purchase and this latest demand also would seem to stand in your favor, not the buyers.

Speak with an attorney before you do anything, but try not to fret too much. People are quick to holler "I'll sue" or other threats, but I've found they don't often follow through after a well-prepared (and backed by legal counsel!) answer. If you were, in fact, an honest seller, you've met your responsibility.

[Anselcat]

You are not in any way responsible for this horse, in my opinion.

I would do nothing at this point except gather together emails and documents, copies of any of the old ads for the horse, and perhaps write down your recollection of all events (this won't be admissible in court, but will help you remember details). So he sent you a certified letter, big deal. You have a signed bill of sale, and it has been 5 months.

I would respectfully disagree with Coloredhorse about sending an attorney's letter or engaging the buyer in any way right now. Any response just gives him something to react against. Absence of a response on your part means he has to expend more energy to get this thing rolling. Go Gandhi on him, and use passive polite resistance. You are under no obligation to respond to him.

PS. Did this guy's letter actually say the horse "has learned" to be a bully, and "has learned" to take a beating before working? If so, he just admitted that the horse was not that way when he was first purchased, and learned these behaviors while under his care and control! All the more reason to not respond right now, let him write some more letters and see what else he says. The more unreasonable he sounds, the more he helps you.

[olympicprincess]

Did he contact you AT ALL between when you sold the horse and now?

If not, I'd ignore it.

Buyer beware... and HELLO!, it's been what 4.5-5mo now? Lots of poor riding, mental or physical abuse could have happened since then and the horse possibly isn't even the same animal you sold.

They may have ruined him and now want you to buy him back? HA! :rolleyes:

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=whitehorse8;3589768]

Anyway, now we're in October and I got a certified letter in the mail from the buyer saying that I falsely advertised the horse; that he is dangerous and "mental" and has learned to be a bully and balk at everything and has learned that he needs a beating to get him to work. (Although the buyer himself has never beaten him according to the letter.) The horse has bucked him off, bucks all of the time and is crazy. His daughter is a trainer and the horse bucks her all the time.

five mos later ?? ...nah...piss on him...tell him had he decided this in the first week /two weeks you'd be interested...as it stands he's ruined a good horse...and that's on him...

I don't know what to do!

tell the bully to drop dead...now, you probably know how the horse came to have his issues :)

best

[JanM]

It sounds to me as if the buyer doesn't want the horse over the winter and as people have guessed before really wanted a free lease with you taking the horse back after they ruined him. I hope the bill of sale used the correct language about "as is" or other of the recommended wording. By the way, the buyer didn't beat him but I bet the daughter-trainer did and she ruined him. Since you can't buy the horse back (basically giving him and his daughter a free horse to ruin for the summer show season) I would do as Anselcat advises and ignore him. Actually if he and his brat ruined the poor horse as badly as it sounds it seems that euthanasia might be the best choice since you can't afford to take the horse back and reselling him sounds dangerous for some unsuspecting rider. I know this is a terrible situation for you and the horse but you did nothing wrong except run into a person that probably pulls stunts like this on a regular basis to unsuspecting sellers. My heart goes out to you and to this poor animal.

[Bluey]

I would consult with an attorney, best a contract specialist.
That is a small amount of money always well spent, for one hour consultation.
Then do what the attorney tells you, that may be to sit it out anyway.
What if that is not in your best interest right now, but the proper answer to his letter is?

We don't know enough but to guess.
Do you want to proceed with this by guessing?

[enjoytheride]

Did he have a vet check prior to taking the horse? I think a lack of vet check would be good on your case. Also, do you have any videos or show records of this horse while you owned him? I would gather those up, as well as video of you riding this horse or any other horse.

If a lawyer does contact you and you need one of your own you will need some record that the horse was fine when you owned him, that you were honest about his issues, and maybe even some video showing that you as a novice and the child as a juvenile were able to ride this horse.

I also agree to keep the letter, especially if it says the horse "learned" bad habits, this will probably get anything tossed right out since the owner just admitted the horse learned something ie didn't know how to do it when you owned him.

[dacasodivine]

I'm somewhere in the middle between Coloredhorse and Anselcat on this. I don't know that I would completely ignore this person. I think I would respond by certified letter that you are very sorry that he is having problems with HIS horse. That if he was having problems, he should have contacted you within a few weeks or a month of the sale but that as so much time has passed, you are sorry but can't/won't take him back.

I wouldn't remind him that you told him the horse was too much for you or that he had bucked if you don't have it in writing somewhere. He will say you didn't tell him that at the time of sale. Honest people assume others are honest too so don't think anything of saying something that the dishonest person can turn around and use against you.

Do you have e-mails between the two of you? What was in the bill of sale? What was in the ad he responded to?

If you advertised the horse as being too much for you, then he had some notice that the horse could be a handful.

Good luck and don't panic. Chance are he's hoping to bully you into taking the horse back.

[Woodland]

I just want to say that he has had the horse 5 months - who's know what he has done to him in that time period.

However I sold a horse with the phrase AS IS no warranties implied or otherwise. The horse was ridden to death by his FAT new owner within weeks of purchase - who sued me. The judge made us settle out of court - he would not even hear the case. This horse I sold was a beloved old trust worthy schoolie. Not perfect but a damn good reliable mount - it broke my heart to know he suffered and died so soon after I sold him. :cry: And i am still pissed that I could not get ANY satisfaction in court!

[pj]

If you got this letter a week after they got the horse it might be one thing, but now???
I wouldn't be worried about it.

[Anselcat]

I think I would respond by certified letter that you are very sorry that he is having problems with HIS horse. That if he was having problems, he should have contacted you within a few weeks or a month of the sale but that as so much time has passed, you are sorry but can't/won't take him back.

<snip> Honest people assume others are honest too so don't think anything of saying something that the dishonest person can turn around and use against you.

This is exactly why I wouldn't respond. If you write that you would have done something if he called within a month of the sale, he will argue that it shows you knew something was wrong with the horse.

But I totally agree with 'Don't panic and this guy is a bully'.

I personally wouldn't respond to him, but if a one-hour consult with an attorney lets you sleep at night, go for it.

[twinkle]

I am worried about the horse. Do you really want him to stay with this bully? Poor horse.

[whitehorse8]

Thank you to everyone who has responded so far.

[whitehorse8]

I'm worried about the horse too, he was a great horse. But I do not have the financial means to buy him back, and quite honestly am afraid of what I would be getting back as well. I have no idea what this guy did to him!

[macmtn]

I think you covered your butt well with this bill of sale. Sorry for the horse he ruined...but its his. I am in the ignore him until you get a lawyer's letter camp.:(

[5]

I know that this man has money to spend on a lawyer

You 'don't' know that.

Don't you find it odd? A week after the stock market falls this guy who was flush when the market was high is now trying to sell back goods he damaged for full price.

Try taking the car you've driven for the past six months and crashed back to the dealership and ask for all your money back including the money for the gas you used while driving it.

For the last six months you haven't heard a peep from this bully (Who seems from your description to be the type of person would have handed the horse back after a week if there was actually a problem.)

I'll bet that he is trying to send back more than just your horse. I'll bet he is pulling the same thing on the owners of the other horses, trailers, boats, etc. he bought during this economic bubble.


The lawyer is a good idea too just in case.

[whitehorse8]

Here is the letter I received:

[Cherry]

Am I responsible for this horse?
Then, or now???? I would say you "should" be okay--I'm not so sure about the horse though.... :uhoh: I ultimately worry about the poor horse, but that's another thread.....

It sounds to me like a clearcut case of buyer's remorse and I think you ought to be okay. You may need a lawyer though, so start looking around.... ;) The guy doesn't sound as if he was really upfront with you if this horse has his number already (and that's what it sounds like to me).... Look for some witnesses that know what kind of horse experience this guy has and have them summoned to court to testify.... :winkgrin: He does sound like a bully but stand your ground!!!!! :yes:

I wouldn't respond to this guy unless, and until, you run it past a lawyer--just to be on the safe side. If, and when, you do respond tell him what you told us--that the horse was fine when you sold the horse to him and you even had a twelve year old riding that horse. (Call that kid as a witness if you need to! ;) ) Tell him it sounds as if he needs to work with a trainer and have a vet in to assess the horse as it sounds as if the saddle is not fitting him properly and the horse's back and saddle fit may need evaluated. Too bad, so sad--he signed a valid contract and that horse is now his responsibility--not yours, and you will not assume any bills incurred in your name pertaining to said horse!

That may end this problem then and there, especially if the letter is sent on a lawyer's letterhead! :winkgrin:

[BuddyRoo]

He owns the horse. He can euth if he wishes. If he want to try to sue you, he can surely try. I'd consult an attorney.

Bigger picture question is...what do you want to happen to the horse?

Given the "NH" comment in your ad, is it correct to assume the buyer was an NH-er and if so, perhaps got in way over his head with a smart horse who takes advantage of someone who is not particularly assertive?

My steady eddy, kid/hubby/bomb proof mare can be a real bully on the ground if handled consistently by someone who isn't assertive. If you won't be the boss, she will. Is that your horse?

All of this is really irrelevant I guess. I'm just thinking out loud how you could NOT Hear about this for 5 months and all of a sudden the guy has an issue.

[whitehorse8]

He did not have a vet check prior to purchase, just the vaccination records and coggins that I sent with him. He and his daughter "tested" his joints and looked him over thoroughly.

I have one video of a friend riding this horse that I posted with the ad; it shows his quick turns, stops, lead changes, etc. (All of the things that I thought were so great about him, and what made him so good for cutting and penning). I have lots of pictures of me riding this horse at the competitions that I took him to also. (You can tell from most of them that I have no idea what I'm doing.)

[whitehorse8]

I don't think that this buyer was at all in to natural horsemanship training.

[Sparky]

He's had the use of the horse for the summer, and now wants him gone. I don't believe a word about the horse injuring anyone. Your bill of sale covers the "no implied warranties" issue, and you were honest with him and told him the horse had bucked you off once. He chose to pay for it and take it home--it's his horse. Although you may have to face the fact that he might have the horse put down,because he sounds like a big enough bully to do just that, not many vets are going to put a healthy horse down, and send a bill for it to someone they've never met.
Don't respond to the guy.

[whitehorse8]

To those that have PM'd me.....

[Saidapal]

Horses fall in the 'let the buyer beware' category. He's trying to scare you into taking the horse off his hands and scamming you out of some money.

I would ignore the letter. You sold the horse in good faith and now 5 months later he's decided he either can't get along with the horse or has ruined the horse all on his own. Since horses aren't selling he's trying to get out of whats turned into a bad situation for him.

I also agree with that if it will make you feel better go talk to an attorney. But do not talk to him, do not e-mail him, do not write him a letter. Anything you say could be used against you if he pursues this further. When people get letters from lawyers they immediately panic. You don't have to. Sometimes a letter is as far as it will go because they know they don't have no legal leg to stand on and are trying to intimidate you.

Throw the letter in a drawer and don't do anything for now.

[equinelaw]

You disclosed what you knew and didn't try to hide anything. He waived the warrantees--both implied and express. He has had the horse for 5 months. He has a bad case, but that doesn't make defending yourself free.

You can pay a lawyer for 1 hours time, but if I had the case, I would need to know a lot more then just the terms of the contract. In 1 hour I can see what your contract said and make an educated guess, but so can people on COTH.

Whether he has a case or not depends on your state, its laws and its case law. A much worse scenereo is if someone gets badly hurt or killed on that horse. He had bucked, you knew he bucked, you told them he bucked and only a judge or jury can decide who is responsible for serious injuries. Not a lawyer in 1 hour and none of us.

Do not talk to this man until you hear from his lawyer. Then you will have to decide if its cheaper to pay for the euthinasia or your own lawyer. If he gets a lawyer you will need one too and only your lawyer should respond in any way. Sadly, going to court over this case is probably more expensive then any other option. As usual, the lawyers will make money that could have been spent settling.

The man will not sell the horse. You can not buy the horse. If the horse must be put down, at your exense or at his, you may consider finding out if that is a $100-300 option and just do it. If it is the only option besides taking the horse back then its a very cheap way out. Its cheaper then your 1 hour consultation with a lawyer who has no way of checking out any facts. Its cheaper then buying the horse back and finding out it is ruined and dangerous.

I know putting the horse down is drastic and may be very sad, but its better then a whole lot of other options this man could have tried.

Although he was abrupt and not polite, if you break it down he is giving you the option of getting the horse back for 1/2 price or allowing him to put the horse in the safest place there is for it now--in the ground. He is not dumping it at auction, selling it to a bad home, or doing anything cruel to "fix' the horse. He is even doing this before he calls a lawyer. They even sound like they really tried for 5 months to get the horse better, but they just kept making it worse, It could be somethng as simple as a bad saddle or the wrong feed, but they cannot fix it.

If you really love the horse then find the money to buy it back instead of paying a lawyer. If you really just want to make sure the horse does not suffer then pay to put it down, even if thats not "fair". You may have the law on your side, but rights are expensive.

This case is far too complicated to know how a judge will rule. It sounds simple, but its not. How experienced in horse sales is the judge? If you pay a lawyer $5,000 to help you win, have you really won?

Not to be harsh, but you sold the horse to a man who you had only known for 1/2 hour and did not keep checking up on it afterwards. You do not have such a great emotional investment that knowing the horse will be put down will break your heart. Don't admit fault, don't apologize, but call a few Vets and see how much it costs and ask yourself if a few hundred dollars isn't too much to spend to have these people out of your life and the horse not end up in a worse situation.

Even though you did nothing wrong and should not have to worry, you now have to deal with this and he gave you some easy options. It could be much worse:mad:

[HorsesinHaiti]

and then..

It can be hard to predict how far someone like this might try to take the case, especially if they DO manage to get someone bucked off and hurt. Some lawyers will do initial consults for fairly low fees. It might be better 'liability insurance' to go talk to one and get advice on how to avoid any further complications. Especially if you decide for your own benefit to take one of his suggestions, which might give him the idea that you would be a pushover for some other action.

[Bluey]

If you accept to send him any money at all, make a contingency that you get a vet bill first and that you will check with the state veterinary board that it is from a bona fide veterinary, if he is euthanized.
Don't fall for just sending him money.
He may later keep extorting more from you, with some other excuse.
You don't know that he is on the level, he may be, or not.

I would still first talk to an attorney in your state and see where you stand in that.
You don't have to do what the attorney tells you, if you don't feel right about it or doesn't make sense.

[cloudyandcallie]

Do nothing.

Do not talk to him, do not write to him, do not email him.

If he shows up at your place, call the sheriff/police.

If he dumps the horse off at your place, call the sheriff/police and animal control and/or a rescue service. And document everything in a police report.

If he is stupid enough to hire a lawyer to sue you, the venue is the jurisdiction in which you live (where the sale took place) and he must hire a lawyer admitted in your state to sue you in your jurisdiction. Then you will have to hire a lawyer to get the case dismissed, and you can recoup your atty's fees, but not all the anguish and aggravation.

Pity for the horse, but if you get involved in that, you are setting yourself up for liability that you do not have now.

You owe him nothing and you are not legally responsible for anything concerning the horse.

[shawneeAcres]

Thank you to everyone who has responded so far. I wish I knew of a good attorney that I could get some advice from, I am in search of that now. Unfortunately, I live in the middle of nowhere. I feel the same as most of you; it has been 5+ months since he's had the horse! I bought the horse and discovered he was too much for me - I didn't demand the seller to buy him back; I dealt with the issue on my own and re-sold him to someone who supposedly knew what they were doing.

The buyer says that his damages are the purchase price, shipping (he trailered the horse home) and daily board rate if $10.00/day - but that he will accept a settlement of half as a refund.

Unfortunately I don't have any of the email correspondence, which was actually with the buyer's daughter, because I don't have access to that email account any longer. (Unplanned, I had them saved in a folder that I can not recover.) Ugh!! I will type out the letter that was sent to me so you can see exactly what I'm up against.

Here is the description I had posted for this horse for sale:

"HORSE is a great all around horse that will cut, sort, and pen with the best of them. He is very broke and experienced on cattle, neck reins, has a great stop and a turns on a dime. He’s super athletic, and moves great off your leg. He is a quiet and uncomplicated horse to ride and show, with a great attitude and excellent confirmation.* He has extensively competed in ranch sorting and team penning, and is always in the money. He’s also great on the trail. HORSE is completely sound and is a super easy keeper with a great personality and no vices. He has excellent ground manners from natural horsemanship training, clips, ties, bathes, trailers and stands well for the farrier & vet. He is up to date on everything. He is for sale because I don't have enough time to compete and I want to see him ridden to his potential.* He is an extraordinary horse that deserves to be out in the spotlight, not standing in a field. He’s been professionally trained and is ready to show. HORSE has a fantastic pedigree, with lines back to Doc Bar, Peppy San and Man O'War."

Here is my bill of sale:

1. PARTIES: (Buyer and Seller)

2. HORSE PURCHASED: The Seller hereby agrees to sell and the Buyer hereby agrees to purchase, upon the terms and conditions set forth, the following described horse, hereinafter referred to as "the horse."
Name:
Breed:
Reg #:
Color:
Sex:
DOB:

3. PURCHASE PRICE: The total purchase price for the above described horse shall be $ to be paid in full upon execution of this contract.
4. Express Warranties: The Buyer accepts the horse with no expressed or implied warranties.
6. ACCEPTANCE, NOTICE OF CLAIMS AND LIMITATION OF REMEDIES: The Buyer accepts the horse by signing this contract and risk of loss passes immediately. The Buyer is responsible for all veterinary and transportation expenses after the date hereof. All incidental and consequential damages are excluded to the full extent permitted by law.
Date and Signatures

With clause #4 above you should have no problem with this holding up in court. When I sell my horses I have a clause that states the horse is sold as-is with no warranties and the buyer has examined the horse to his/her's satisfaction. I make TWO copies, I sign both and have the buyer sign and give me a copy back for my records. THis came in very handy when I was taken to court earlier this year for a situation similar to yours. The judge took one look at the bill of sale and said NO OTHER EVIDENCE was admissible as the buyer had signed this bill of sale. Even though I had correspondence with the buyers prior to purchase stating a condition that they subsequently tried to sue me for and get me to take the horse back. It pays to have paperwork in order!! Nearly everyone who has ever bought a horse from me has been thrilled and stated how I represented the hrose accurately etc, BUT there is always one person who spoils it! I suspect these people are trying to frighten you to take the horse and give them money. Just sit still, don't respond and put the ball back in their court! BTW, they had a lawyer, I didn't and I won the case.

[goeslikestink]

Did he have a vet check prior to taking the horse? I think a lack of vet check would be good on your case. Also, do you have any videos or show records of this horse while you owned him? I would gather those up, as well as video of you riding this horse or any other horse.

If a lawyer does contact you and you need one of your own you will need some record that the horse was fine when you owned him, that you were honest about his issues, and maybe even some video showing that you as a novice and the child as a juvenile were able to ride this horse.

I also agree to keep the letter, especially if it says the horse "learned" bad habits, this will probably get anything tossed right out since the owner just admitted the horse learned something ie didn't know how to do it when you owned him.

also keep evertyhing logged emails calls etc etc and a copy if you can and contatc a lawyer you can get aid if not earning enoough some lawyers do a 30 mins consultation
for about 50quid here in uk, it can only go through the small claims court if anything as its a cival matter aanything in the norm of about 5k is in small claims court

the horse is a saleable comodity in which case its stands as anything else such as a handbag 31 days refund type thing so he should have contacted you up and within 31days which he hasnt hes had the horse for 5months in which time the horses education is purely done by the humans that are handling him from the day he left you to the time as of today - so therefore his triaining etc is down to them and how they apply it to thehorse - always the horse that sufers in the end what happened more than likely is what happened to you- you was over horsed and so was the neew owner and by rights at that time when he said blah balh was probably bullshit and hes now overhorsed himself

any competition horse like the one you sold should have gone to an expreinced home or in hands that can progress and work the horse in whats hes been competting in joe bloggs average joe
isnt the right person

[Lucassb]

The buyer is a bully and since you sold the horse with no express or implied warranties, you really have little to worry about other than the nuisance and possible expense of defending yourself.

The American Bar Association offers a low cost referral program that can help you find a lawyer. You can find details at http://www.abanet.org/legalservices/findlegalhelp/home.cfm

The programs vary by state, but as an example, where I live in CT, the referral fee is $35 and includes a half hour consultation with a private attorney. You can call or email them about your issue.

Good luck.

[chai]

That's great advice, equine law. It is a difficult situation all the way around and I feel very sorry for whitehorse. But you're right. If the horse is totally fried now to the point where he is dangerous, I think the man who has her is doing the right thing by choosing euthanasia rather than pass the horse along to someone who could get killed or dumping the horse at auction where it could wind up at slaughter. It's just sad all the way around.

[JanM]

I agree with "5"--the man's investments tanked and he wants money, and everyone else is right-don't just send him money if he says he euthanized the horse you must have a statement from a registered vet and proof it is the actual horse and I still wouldn't pay him for it. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that he already sold the horse or sent it to a meat auction, or had it put down for some other reason already and wants you to pay. This man just screams scammer to me and I wouldn't pay him a penny. And I wouldn't tolerate him bothering you directly, he sounds like a bully that may try to harass you into sending him money--that's what the local police there to help you with.

[Flash44]

This is not your fault. Any horse can quickly learn bad habits, and it does not take much for a smart and athletic horse to fiure out who's boss pretty fast. Buyer beware. I've seen plenty of "trainers" who really don't know how to handle a horse that has some attitude, no matter how many years of experience they say they have.

[magnolia73]

OK-
When I bought my horse she was a bitch for the first two months. She reared and was a pain to ride. Broke crossties. Scared the BM. A bit of feed adjustment and a return to more turn out and she is now back to being the quiet, calm horse I purchased.

IMO- I think that "pro daughter" should have realized that things like saddle fit, feed, change in turn out etc. etc. can cause behaviorial changes. And they should have contacted you sooner rather than later. Did they do a pre-purchase and do things like draw blood? Did trainer daughter evaluate the horse? Sounds like they skipped their due-diligence. We have all giggled at ad interpretations "Jumps 5' (out of his pasture)".

Good luck.

[spurgirl]

This person, and his daughter are aggressive bullies who ruined a spirited horse...I have a QH gelding very similar in personality to what you've described this horses' personality as-and he would be ruined too, if he was treated to speeding, reckless, trailer rides, etc., etc....When this man describes beatings "by other trainers" in the past-he is referring to himself and his daughter, because they know of no other way to train, except by force, so they assume all folks do it that way. I am so sorry for you, and this horse you once had. I would consult a lawyer, with all paperwork, videos, pictures, etc., mentioned by other posters-but I agree in not conatcting him in any way. And I would not give him a dime, or take back the horse, unless ordered by a court. As far as the horse bucking on you once, ANY horse can buck here and there, it is their nature, and in no way means that horse was dangerous. Good Luck, so sorry:(

[Ambrey]

Horses, like people, act differently in different environments. When I got my horse, he was very much not like he was at his previous owners'. I had a lot of comments that she must have been dishonest, drugged him, etc.

But once we worked out what was bothering him and he settled and became attatched to his new people, he was back to his sweet self.

Just my way of saying that horses are not cars- they can change behavior and temperament just because they don't like where they are living. I think spurgirl is right and that this horse has learned to be a dominant bully from the new owner.

Good luck with this. I think he's focusing on the ad (which does say the horse is very broke) and not the discussions or experiences he had with you and the horse. He's going to need to be reminded that you told him these things before he bought the horse.

[lovemyrobin]

You will be fine, the buyer is full of sour grapes.

I had a trainer pull this BS on me on a pony I sold. Pony had a verifiable show record, trainers clients came out in rode her twice, chose not to have her vetted because we both used the same vet and I gave her permission to see her records. They (the trainer and clients) were told that the pony needed to be jumped at least once a week by a good pony jock to keep her going. The little girl that was buying her was just starting to learn to canter.

They took the pony to a few shows, got ribbons, we visited the pony several times and saw them at shows. Everything was wonderful, parents loved pony, little girl loved pony. Then 8 months after the sale--BAM my trainer and I get an e-mail from the trainer, come pick up the pony, reimburse the sellers, you lied about the jumping, she has physical problems that you didn't disclose to us, etc..... I ignored the trainer and called the dad, got the real story. Trainer had not been keeping the pony tuned up over jumps, little girl now wanted to "jump", they had bought another HORSE for the little girl, and could we please help because the trainer had washed her hands of the pony.

It was all BS and the trainer was trying to bully me into buying the pony back.

You sold a decent horse and disclosed what you knew about the horse. The current owner has no recourse against you, there is no guarantees on horse behavior. Humans make horses crazy, not vice versa

[equinelaw]

1. PARTIES: (Buyer and Seller)

2. HORSE PURCHASED: The Seller hereby agrees to sell and the Buyer hereby agrees to purchase, upon the terms and conditions set forth, the following described horse, hereinafter referred to as "the horse."
Name:
Breed:
Reg #:
Color:
Sex:
DOB:

3. PURCHASE PRICE: The total purchase price for the above described horse shall be $ to be paid in full upon execution of this contract.
4. Express Warranties: The Buyer accepts the horse with no expressed or implied warranties.
6. ACCEPTANCE, NOTICE OF CLAIMS AND LIMITATION OF REMEDIES: The Buyer accepts the horse by signing this contract and risk of loss passes immediately. The Buyer is responsible for all veterinary and transportation expenses after the date hereof. All incidental and consequential damages are excluded to the full extent permitted by law.
Date and Signatures[/QUOTE]

Again, its not that simple. See #4 here? If it was written just like its posted in my state its not good enough. States VARY and a little thing like font size matters.

The best time to throw 1 hours worth of legal fees at a lawyer is before you sign contracts. That 1 hour afterwards is useless.

This is slightly off topic, but a friend called me to ask about a stableman's lein. Some people had called an attorney for the short quick answer and she had refered them to the state code and explained the procedure. Thast what you get in an hour.

What she didn't know was that the horses in question had been part of a seizure some 4 years ago and the case had been ruled on by the Supreme Court in the last few months. That was the proper answer--do what the SCt told you to-- but you don't know that in a short Q&A session.

Just wait and see if you get a letter from a real lawyer, but this man does not sound like a bully or a crook or a liar. He is trying to do the right thing, but is blaming the wrong person.

[whitehorse8]

My impression from the letter

[archieflies]

If the guy ever intended to involve a lawyer, he would have had the lawyer write the initial letter. Ignore it. :)

[equinelaw]

I can't really tell. His letter could be read either way. If he has a lawyer write you a letter it should be clearer what he is asking for. I read it as he wants to put it down at your expense OR you can give him half to save the horse. Your reading is just as valid.

All the laws of your state are posted on the web. So are the case laws. Everything is there for the searching.
Find out:
1) if there is a certain way to disclaim warrantees in NY
2) what the small claims court limit is and if your sales price falls under that
3) what an ad means in NY. In my state your ad could be either a discription or mere "puffery" just an opinion of how wonderful the horse is. Just depends on the judge and the stage of the moon or something.

Then just google NY horse sale returns months and other word combinations and FindLaw will show you cases with similar facts and you can see how they turned out.

[whitehorse8]

FYI - the sale price

[equinelaw]

It matters becuase in small claims court you do not need a lawyer. Some states actually forbid them:)

[kellyb]

I saw that you had a bill of sale but did it say As-is?

I think the guy is full of shit and is just trying to see if you'll take the bait. I wouldn't do anything, let him find you first before you spend money euthing the horse or getting a lawyer.

[DaisyMae]

I read the letter the same way Whitehorse did. He wants a refund and then she can choose to pick the horse up or the horse will be euthanized at her expense.

I would wait to see if you hear from his lawyer and try not to worry to much until then. I think he's trying to scare you into paying by threatening action from a lawyer and agree with whichever poster said if he truly intended to, the letter you received would have come from a lawyer to begin with.

[wolfatbay2002]

I am with almost everyone else on this, do not respond to his letter. Do gather all letters, videos, pictures, and and info as to all who has ridden or knew this horse when he was yours. Also get some names of attorneys just in case, I am sorry that this is going on, but some people can be jerks.

[steelerino]

A week after I got him he had bucked me off once (a black eye and cracked ribs), run over me from behind (more cracked ribs) as he spooked at waving grass, refused to load, untied himself from my trailer and ran away, etc.

You admitted to "Daughter" after the first bucking session with me and "daughter" that he had bucked you off also. You also mentioned to me, after I bought the horse and inquired as to why he refused to load, that "he holds a grudge!".



OP states that she has not heard from buyer since the horse left her property and she also states that she advised him of his behavior issue. But if you read his letter he worte that the horse bucked him off a week after purchase and it was at that time she told him he does buck on occasion. If OP didn't disclose that info before he bought the horse then I feel the horse was misrepresented. The for sale ad made him sound wonderful, no hint of a behavior problem.

Something doesn't add up.

[pj]

My impression from the letter isn't that I can simply pay to have the horse put down (if that was what I wanted to do), but that the buyer wants his refund and then I either have to pick the horse up or pay to have him put down. Either way, not a cheap option - which unfortunately, makes the decision that much more difficult for me. I lost my job earlier this fall and have no extra money to spend - on a horse, an attorney, or anything. I am going to see if I can find a legal referral through the link provided above (thank you!), but think I may wait to see if I hear from this guy's lawyer first. I tend to agree with most of you, that 5 months is just plain WAY too long to wait to try to re-coup the cost of the horse and also too long to have to ruin a perfectly good horse. Both the buyer and I live in New York, just in opposite ends of the state. Does anyone know what NY laws are? Thank you again for all who have posted!

offer NOTHING. If you offer to pay for putting the horse down it appears that you think/knew the horse was dangerous. I think you'd be opening yourself wide open. If they were having all these problems with the horse from the start you would have heard about it before now.
I'm really sorry for the horse but it you can't buy him back (and whoever heard of wanting board on the horse they bought while they had him? ) you can't.
I'd wait and see if I heard from their attorney and even if you do that doesn't mean they'll actually take it to court. People AND attorneys have used "the letter" to try to scare people into seeing things their way.

[Silly Mommy]

All horses buck. There is no such thing as "bombproof".

When will people get it???

He is a dumbass, ignore him.

[silver2]

Ignore it. It is hard to do so when you are already stressed over losing job, money etc and feel you must do something I know. You are already under pressure and doing ~something~ will make you feel better temporarily and relieve some of the pressure you feel.

But it is a bad idea. So be strong and don't do anything. My sense is that you will not hear from this guy again. Unless he takes some kind of legal action forget him. Even then you will win with that bill of sale.

Try this mental exercise: Put yourself in his shoes- if you bought a horse or a car from someone for cash in the same manner would you go back 5 months later and say "this horse bucks" or "the car needs repairs" and expect to get your money back? Of course not, you can probably imagine the seller laughing at you if you did. Well be that seller and ignore this guy.

[J-Lu]

I'm not a lawyer but I agree with the idea of not contacting this guy unless through legal means. After 5 months, most people would decide to sell the horse that "didn't work out". I can't imagine anyone who would refund the money at this point.

Also, I can't see how he can think that the horse was misrepresented if he came out and RODE him and offered money on the spot. It seems like if he decided not to do a pre-purchase (including drug test) , he doesn't have much to stand on. Many people don't want to pre-purchase the $5K horse but I think these are exactly the type of sales that need them.

I would also wonder if the horse is truly in bad straights or if the guy is exaggerating becuase he wants money back.

Good luck!
J.

[Sunset Ponies]

Just for clarification I didn't read the letter to mean that she had the option of putting him to sleep instead of paying damages. I read it to mean that he wanted damages and that she could either come get him or also pay to have him euthanized. That being said, paying to have him euthanized is not a good idea because paying him anything at this point could be seen as an admission of guilt. I would wait to see if he really plans on proceeding with this before doing anything at all.

[whitehorse8]

I told the buyer

[IndysMom]

BTDT. Got sued (almost 20 years ago!) for "misrepresentation" of a horse that I had sold. Similar story. Came, tried horse, horse was TERRIBLE, bought horse anyway, had him vetted. Kept horse for months (about 5 if I remember correctly), horse dumped her several times, then wanted to return horse to me and wanted purchase price plus boarding fees, sued me in small claims court.

Fortunately, I had witnesses to every conversation I'd ever had with her, including my vet.

Fortunately, I had a savvy judge who basically told her she was an idiot and she LOST.

I did see a lawyer when I got the letter. He spent about an hour with me going over what I needed to do. He wouldn't go to court with me because he said that it was small claims court and I didn't need him. Turned out he was right.

I live in NY, BTW.

So, my advice? Go see a lawyer for a consult once you get the letter from small claims court. In the meantime, gather all your evidence that you have, including any witnesses. Otherwise, ignore the idiot.

[Halt At X]

I read the letter as the buyer was trying to give the OP an ultimatum- Come get Dobbin and give me some money or I put your precious Dobbin in the ground......Sounds like he's trying to bully her to me.....

Honestly, you are not obligated to send him any sort of reply. I would not do a thing until I heard from the lawyer. We'll see if one appears or if this all just goes away once he figures he cannot intimidate you.

Some people are very dishonest and maybe it's just a case of the horse is too much for him too, he is hurting for $$$ and is trying to harp on one little tidbit of info (when you told him he bucked) and turn it against you hoping he can get something in return.

ETA: Please keep us updated as to how this plays out.....

[eclipse]

Don't do anything until you hear from his lawyer officially! Friend of mine sold a lovely horse coming up 3 years ago and is STILL in the middle of a nasty case! (actually sounds like the same guy, only hers was a jumper!):eek: They did vet the horse & even though some things showed up, they still bought & my friend had an iron clad bill of sale written up (and yes, "as is" was included). A few weeks later, he wanted to return the horse saying they Mis-represented it, and they didn't know that he had navicular, etc etc (bullcr@p...they had a complete vet check done!). They threatened to have the horse put down, they threated everything, and my friend was devestated (lawyers sent witnesses to check & put a stop to all that!). She offered to take him back for what they paid less a certain amount, but nope they were greedy & wanted the full amount plus! So lawyers were called! It's STILL being fought, even though it's been to discovery & in front of a retired judge, who all said "dude, you are going to loose; we will not pay you a cent; drop it or we'll see you in court where you'll end up paying for all of our fees too!".....guess what, he's STILL pursuing it and causing nothing but headaches for everyone (I figure he's just a bully with waaaay too much money & time on his hands!)..........sigh

[ddashaq]

I really have nothing new to add, other than the demand for board for the 5 months he had the horse is ridiculous. I don't see how his brain is working to figure that is in any way right. I could understand if after a month he decided he did not want the horse, contacted OP, she agreed to take him back and then never picked horse up. Then it would make sense to bill someone for several months of back board. To demand board on a horse that has been in his ownership (per sale agreement) for 5 months is asinine. What a dimwit.:rolleyes:

Best of luck to you OP, when it is all said and done and public record (if it gets to that) please out this guy so no one else here has to deal with his stupidity.

[andylover]

I feel for you on this one. your contract does not state anything about "as is" and if you go to court, the court can deem you responsible for not selling a safe horse. the contract i have for selling my horses is two pages long and still probably doesnt have all the stuff needed to cover myself or my horses. i didnt see any "right of first refusal" in your contract, meaning he is more than welcome to try to sell the horse to someone else..

[Seal Harbor]

I feel for you on this one. your contract does not state anything about "as is" and if you go to court, the court can deem you responsible for not selling a safe horse. .

I thought that is what this line meant.

4. Express Warranties: The Buyer accepts the horse with no expressed or implied warranties.

[zahena]

Pft, I got bucked off a horse that is pretty much the most mellow horse I've ever ridden two weeks ago and thought I busted my tail bone. Just goes to show, you never know.

Agreed that if he was really going to sue you the initial letter would've come from his attorney.

We had a horse we sold that the new owners beat stupid. Some other friends "stole" him and eventually turned him into the nicest cow horse you ever saw. Anyone could ride him. So this guy story is bull. He's been made crazy by them, not previous owners.

Good luck! Let us know how it works out for you.

[Summit Springs Farm]

Why don't you make a copy of the letter, highlight the expressed warranties line #4.
Sympathize with him, by saying you understand his frustration, but you told him the horse bucks. Nothing new on that one and be nice.

Then explain to him you are not in a position to take the horse back or offer any financial aid to him.

Explain if he want to get into court, it will likely cost him more than half the purchase price plus the board, as well as for you, you don't have resources to get into a court battle and would be detrimental to you as well.

Put this into a letter to him and wait and see. I have found that if you respond nicely and do not ingore someone, they usually will come to a agreement with you.

[Katie-Nicole]

I say ignore it. I bought a mare 4 years ago who is an absolute bully on the ground. I wasn't told of this behavior. I went to look at the mare, and bought her after 30 minutes of a friend and I were looking her over in the barn aisle. She was antsy, and nervous. We weren't allowed to ride due to ice. I was told there was a video of her under saddle but that she "forgot" it. She was asking $750 for her, lowered from an original $1200 asking price. She had her for sale since November and I looked at her in February. I offered her $500 and we settled on $600. I needed 2 weeks to prep a stall and that was written into my bill of sale. 5 days later, I get a call from the seller who says that someone who came and looked at the horse before me called her with an offer of the full asking price and that I could meet that or she would be returning my deposit and selling the horse to the other party. I told her that I didn't violate any of the terms of the agreement and that she was bound to the terms of the bill of sale. Should I violate those terms, then she could sell the horse, but she was obligated to sell me the horse at the terms outlined. I think she was just trying to finagle extra $$ out of me.

Well, I get the horse home and she's NOTHING like she was said she was. She was sold as a bred mare-in-foal (all her ads say 2-for-1 package) and it turns out she was long since barren. This mare was advertised as beginner safe, easy to handle, and she wasn't. This mare would just as soon bite, kick, or run you over, before anything. I heard though the grapevine that the seller was honestly afraid of said horse, and refused to handle it. She wouldn't even turn her out and had someone move her to a clean stall on a different side of the barn the day I came out to look at her, so that I didn't see that she was standing in 4 months of filth. But, in the end, I bought the mare as is, and had enough experience to address the issues. The mare is beginner safe for anyone under saddle, it just takes an experienced horseperson to get her tacked up and to the mounting block. She's pinned vets against the wall, need shoeing stocks to touch her feet, broke her leg kicking my stall walls. She's not a treat. I won't sell her because I've been able to resolve most of her issues, and I don't want her hurting anyone else. She knows how to read people and knows just how much she can get away with given her handler.

I know my seller completely and deliberately misrepresented the horse I bought, and even had the cojones to try to milk more money out of me, but I signed a bill of sale "as-is" and had to deal with my mistake. We all know what a responsible seller should do, but there's buyer's responsibility as well. They're responsible for completely assessing the horse prior to purchase to ensure that it is suitable. Five months later, it's their loss. What if the horse colicked and died within a month of it's purchase. That's their problem, not yours. Same in this case. Bad horse after 5 months, their problem, not yours. You've had no custody or contol of the horse, their training or conditions in that time, and therefore cannot be made responsible for the outcomes of the last 5 months.

[Ambrey]

In some states, I believe, "as-is" does not void the seller's responsibility to disclose known problems.

Maybe the lawyers can confirm?

[Bogie]

I know how hard it is not to respond to this guy, but I agree with those who say do nothing until you hear from a lawyer.

The kind of person who sends this letter is (often) someone who will not respond well to small acts of kindness (such a sympathy) but will see it as a weakness.

I think it's best to not engage him, but to definitely find a lawyer.

Years ago I DID take a horse back. I sold him to a girl who had leased him for 6 months. They opted to buy without a PPE and he started having trouble with his hocks. I offered to take him back (not to repay!) and they accepted. They were relieved not to have a lame horse, I got to make sure my old campaigner stayed safe. I later retired him. I think it's ridiculous that he wants you to buy him back and pay for his board!

[Trevelyan96]

Another thing to consider.... since he threatened to 'euthanize' the horse if you didn't pick him up and buy him back in an unreasonable time frame, the horse may actually already be dead and he's trying to get money out of it.

[equinelaw]

In some states, I believe, "as-is" does not void the seller's responsibility to disclose known problems.

Maybe the lawyers can confirm?

I already did confirm that and gave people a chance to practice protecting themselves by looking up the law in my state so we can play "spot the problem" in that sales contract.

I told OP to look up the law in her state on that very point.

She should still not do a thing until she gets a letter from his lawyer, but peopel can learn from this situation and make sure their sales contracts are good in thier own state. Or not. I kind of prefer them to not learn how to DIY and still pay me, but, you know. . . :winkgrin:

[Sansena]

Another thing to consider.... since he threatened to 'euthanize' the horse if you didn't pick him up and buy him back in an unreasonable time frame, the horse may actually already be dead and he's trying to get money out of it.

Ladies and Germs... WE HAVE A WINNAH!!

[gloriginger]

Here's how I read his letter- ofcourse I do play arm chair psychologist a lot:

His ego is bruised. This guy showed up, rode the horse for a half an hour and thought he could handle him. He got the horse, within a week horse bucks him off. Who only knows what happened in the last 5 months - but I do know one thing- when someone makes a point of saying something like "and I never beat him..." its usually a pretty good indicator that he HAS done just that.

Things have spiraled downward to the point that guy has only one option- to deam the horse "mentally unstable." and to feel entitled to refund plus+ because surely horse was messed up BEFORE he got him. Guy cannot accept that his crappy horsemanship, hard hand and macho attitude is the exact reason that he has this admittedly sensitive horse now in a very bad place. In addition, he wants horse destroyed (or as someone else pointed else- has already done so) because his ego could never handle someone else taking this horse and actually having a working productive relationship. It has to be the horse- and the seller is surely the one who was dishonest.

He will externalize everything, it will never be his fault, and he will do this to more horses. I do think he is a paper tiger, and you should call his bluff but get your things in order just incase he does contact an attorney.

On a side note- my bill of sale for my mare, who I purchased from an attorney- says:

"Sale of REGISTERED NAME, grey seven year old Arabian mare, registration #, sold for sum of ____, on this _ day of _____, 2001, is sold as is, which is with no known defects..."

he sold several horses and was very by the book- just thought I'd ad that.

[eclipse]

My "as is" clause also says:

It is understood that this horse is sold in "as is" condition, that no warranties other than expressly presented in writing herein are to be inferred, or implied, and that any warranty made by Seller or Agent must be written on this Bill of Sale or it is not valid. Any previous oral statements or claims by the seller, if not included in the written contract, are not binding.
---------------

This guy is trying to take you for a ride; do NOT do anything until you have a letter from an actual laywer saying that he is actually suing you! He's a bully and trying to prey on your heart!

[SuperSTB]

This whole thing is frigging sad. Sad for the horse, sad for OP, and sad for the moron who doesn't know how to purchase a horse so probably has done this before.

I wouldn't do anything except consult with a lawyer. It's short money to be prepared.

[Littlecat]

I also had a few bad sales. People are not all alike and some horse people are completely nuts!! I sold a gelding to a girl that had a few trailering issues, but would go on with a lunge line, I also had lost his papers no biggie he was a tb gelding (what do you need papers for a tb gelding for?) The ytook him home and cancelled the check.( when I called her she said she cancelled it because I didnt give her the papers) I did get the money but it was a huge ordeal. I also went to their house to help load him over and over again so they knew how to do it. and gave her daughter a lesson on him. They were idiots, i felt bad for the horse.

Good luck I would ignore him but protect yourself. I know easier said then done when a retainer for lawyer is 2500-.

[dacasodivine]

Okay, I will go along with the masses who say don't respond. I have a problem not responding. Not that I've had a problem like this! I think my thought process on this is that some people get more bent out of shape if you ignore them. I would NOT admit to having finacial problems. That would imply you would give the money back if you could. But since you aren't going to respond to him, that won't be a problem!

You said he kind of bullied you into lowering your price? He's decided you're a push over and is trying to bully you into taking back a horse he's ruined.

I hope the replies have helped you calm down. Keep in mind that you can sue over anything. Doesn't mean they will win.

You do have a signed copy of the bill of sale? That's all you need.

[stryder]

or he will have him euthanized at my expense on his farm.

I'm with those who advise against responding to him. He bought him, he ruined him, the horse is his.

I'm just wondering how this would play out. I mean, really. The guy calls the vet to come out and euth the horse, and calls the renderer to pick up the body. He tells both that they'll be paid by you? While some vets MAY bill HIM (the true owner) for this service, I can't imagine anyone agreeing to bill you - someone they've never met, who is 5 hours away. And the guy who would haul it off or bury it? That guy is going to do the work in advance of payment?

You're kidding, right?:lol:

[philosoraptor]

From a business standpoint: I'd ignore him. Let him try to sue. Sounds like he's not the rider he thought he did.

But if it were me, I'd remain polite with the buyer and I'd ask to go see the horse. The worst thing that can happen to a horse is for him to be owned by someone who hates & resents him and who thinks he's "dangerous", a sure recipe for neglect and abuse. If nothing else, you can see for yourself what the horse can become ( if he's still alive). Maybe he will work with you to find a solution that works for both of you as well as the horse?

This may come down to something as simple as the asshat with a too-narrow saddle with a broken tree. Horse acts out. Guy declares horse "dangerous". Horse is beaten when he acts out. Oy!

[In_The_Ribbons]

"Good luck I would ignore him but protect yourself. I know easier said then done when a retainer for lawyer is 2500-."

Unless you sold your horse as a corporation (and I believe this is not the case), you do not need a lawyer. You can represent yourself in court.

In most states cases under $5K go to small claims courts anyway.

For now, I would do nothing as well, but if you do get sued, there is no need to spend your money on a lawyer. The amount of money involved is really insignificant.

[nightsong]

My impression from the letter isn't that I can simply pay to have the horse put down (if that was what I wanted to do), but that the buyer wants his refund and then I either have to pick the horse up or pay to have him put down.

Sounds a whole lot more like "give me MONEY or I'll KILL THE HORSE. Standard "bully" language for "give me money or ELSE", the "else" is to kill something you presumably care for. i've had a LOT of bullies tell me, "give me money or I'll kill MYsELF," this is a new twist.

[Seven]

In most states cases under $5K go to small claims courts anyway.

For now, I would do nothing as well, but if you do get sued, there is no need to spend your money on a lawyer. The amount of money involved is really insignificant.

I doubt it is "insignificant" to the OP since s/he posted the question. An hour with a lawyer will not cost $2500, and she may even be eligible for a free or low cost (less than $50) consultation that can provide important information specific to New York State, as would be required in this matter. There's been some mis-information posted about how to proceed since laws for each states proceedings are unique to that state.

For example, the small claims limit in NY is either 3,000 OR 5,000 depending on the court in which the claim is filed. Moreover, the letter from the buyer indicates he is seeking additional damages for board/costs, which would quickly put him over any small claims limit in NY. He doesn't have to win to make the claim in his complaint but it does allow him to proceed in civil court with the benefit of counsel, quickly escalating costs for the OP should it go that route.

The New York State Bar Association (http://www.nysba.org/Content/NavigationMenu/PublicResources/NeedaLawyer/Hire_an_Attorney.htm) also provides a free legal referral service as well as many smaller county bar associations where ever the OP lives. S/he should Google her county name with bar association and see what comes up.

The New York State Unified Court system (http://www.nycourts.gov/home.htm) (oversees all state courts) has made significant efforts in recent years to make the court system more accessible to all citizens, so there is a lot more information about how to use the court system, including pro se proceedings. There is a lot of good information on that site but the OP will have to spend some time clicking around and reading. Some courts have established walk in clinics for would-be litigants to get help and advice. Others have access to volunteer lawyer clinics. These pages (http://www.nycourts.gov/courts/nyc/civil/represent.shtml) may be a good starting point.

The buyer has to start the proceeding (either pro se or with counsel in either county where the parties reside - not necessarily the county where the sale took place as previously posted, so s/he may be forced to travel) but it's helpful for the seller to prepare now. The time for response is limited and certain remedies become unavailable after an answer is filed if s/he is unaware of them.

FWIW, I read the buyer's letter the same way the seller does - the buyer wants money settlement from the seller at which time s/he can choose to pick up the horse or euthanize it. It's not really a bully tactic; that's the reasonable way a court might rule. The parties split the damages and then the horse must be disposed of in some way - either reclaimed by the seller or euthanized.

[gieriscm]

Just MHO, but if the purchaser were truly interested in a lawsuit, the letter to you would have come from his attorney, not from him.

[Just Wondering]

II think I would respond by certified letter that you are very sorry that he is having problems with HIS horse.

No sorry. Do not use the word sorry or apolgize in any way. #1 - It is not something you did and need to apologize for and #2 any attorney anywhere will tell you to never apologize upfront. Sadly - to be polite looks like an admission of guilt.

[emaren]

Well, I only read the first page so I don't know if anyone has brought this up. I actually think the wording of your ad describes a much better horse than the horse you described here. You say you don't have time for the horse in the ad, but then describe the horse as too much horse to handle to us on this forum. Then you have "lost" all of the email messages that show how you tell the buyers all that they are getting into and that the ad isn't quite accurate.

I'm thinking your fears of being sued are valid. People don't just send certified letters out of the blue - they were probably contacting you before this and maybe you wouldn't respond or talks broke down??? I have no way to know your real situation, but it really sounds sugar coated to me.

You should also remember that the buyers can find this information on this forum and use that against you in court. There was a Fugly post about someone that recently won their court case against the seller in a similar situation.

[findeight]

IME, when you get a demand letter like this from an individual claiming/threatening to call a lawyer-they are full of sh*t. Those that actually have lawyers will have the lawyer draft and send the letter.

Doesn't sound like anything a lawyer would have advised on with the threat to euth the horse at your expense. A lawyer letter would be much more to the point that you misrepresented the horse and he wants you to take it back and refund.

Also, not sure any correspondance with daughter is going to be that important, your contract is with him, not her. Representing herself as a pro, she should have known better on day one.

But there is a potential problem IMO with your wording of the ad, "very well broke". Anything verbal can be just she said, he said. And he did call and say he had been off and could not get it to load. Maybe he does have a case even after 5 months.

Mind you, I think not but you never know. For that reason keep your mouth shut and do not send anything or talk to him on the phone as anything you say can and will be used against you;).

Honestly, see a lawyer just in case you do hear from him. Best to be ready.

Sounds like he is trying to extort from you by threatening to euth the horse...and if you do not authorize that, not sure he can make you pay for it if he actually does do it, which I doubt.

[Anselcat]

People don't just send certified letters out of the blue.

No, but they do send them when they want to appear to be all serious without actually spending any money or time researching the law. It costs what, all of two bucks to send a letter certified? I give it about as much weight as those advertising letters you get with "official correspondence" stamped all over them in red ink.

[2ndyrgal]

The internet ad will probably be the undoing, a smart lawyer, or even a dumb one will make mincemeat out of you. How do I know? I sold a horse that I did not misrepresent, brag on, guarantee for any purpose at all to a gal who was a "adrenalin x-games type gal" that wanted a specific horse. He had to be dark brown, with no white and a Thoroughbred that she could "gallop across the fields with the wind blowing thru my hair". Found her one, sold her same. He was not dangerous or mean, he was a typical OTTB. When it came winter, she moved him from my barn, to the worst barn in the area. Four months later, she informed me that "the horse was pyscho, unsound, ugly, and not suited for upper level dressage or foxhunting". Now, she had never riden to hounds, or done dressage and was sold a slow buckskin quarter horse that she was currently only trotting around (he wasn't going to do uppper level dressage either( she sued me for the return of her purchase price,as she had given him away, and bought another horse. After six months of depositions, during my husband's triple bypass surgery, I told the lawyer to cut a check for half and tell her to go to hell. I never got the horse back, he had mysteriously "disapeared" from a field somewhere four hours away, never to be seen again. Perhaps the horse was too much for him, perhaps it was too much for you, it's the ad that will ultimately appear to be representing an "easy uncomplicated horse" when if that was the case, you'd have kept him. He can't "euthanize at your expense", no vet will bill you for his horse, but.... ignoring this will not make it go away, get a lawyer and find out if he's had the horse out somewhere, done competitions, whatever, and find out if these people are really horsemen, what they were going to use the horse for to begin with and if they've had any complaints. Good luck.

[mishmash]

[QUOTE=emaren;3598392]Well, I only read the first page so I don't know if anyone has brought this up. I actually think the wording of your ad describes a much better horse than the horse you described here. You say you don't have time for the horse in the ad, but then describe the horse as too much horse to handle to us on this forum. Then you have "lost" all of the email messages that show how you tell the buyers all that they are getting into and that the ad isn't quite accurate.

I agree with the above-how she said she described the horse, and the actual ad itself are two different things.

I see so many posts on here about this subject-some from sellers, how buyer took horse, "messed it up" and now wants compensation/seller to take horse back. And then there are the ones from buyers, claiming they were SO clear with seller on what the wanted, and yet horse they bought was not what they were told they were getting, must have been drugged, etc. Who is right? Dunno. But do know, as a buyer, there are a lot of people out there who will say anything to sell you a horse. Have been on the receiving end of that, and have seen friends on the reciving end. Buyer Beware! Part of selling a horse is to sell you a dream with that horse. Buyers forget it is their job to make that dream come true. If you purchase a horse, and your dreams dont come true, go look in the mirror.

[Seven]

I wouldn't be so quick to assume that just because he started with a certified letter he has not consulted with counsel already. There's no way to know what preparation the buyer has already done (or not done) before sending this letter. In contract disputes there is often a duty to mitigate damages and that's exactly how his settlement offer can be construed. He may be sending this low key letter on advice of counsel (because perhaps he's taken the time to consult one and get a better handle on the laws covering him) before embarking on more costly proceedings.

I'm not advocating the the OP settle at this point but s/he should not necessarily ignore this letter simply because it hasn't yet arrived on attorney letterhead.

The big problem with any dispute such as this (as has been illustrated by several posts) is that it's quite simple to commence legal action when you think you've been wronged and court might provide a remedy. It's also quite costly to defend oneself from that kind of claim and litigation outcomes are unpredictable. The judge could find in the OPs favor, the buyer's favor, or approve a settlement very similar to what's been outlined. No one knows right now how it will be decided. Regardless, it can easily cost more then is currenly at stake just to reach that resolution and that's the perspective the OP has to start considering. That's why if OP is uncomfortable researching this on her own, she really needs to talk to an attorney in her jurisdiction, even if only to get a road map on how to proceed.

[Cielo Azure]

1) I too thought the ad and the description of the animal that you gave us didn't match up.

2) You mention that the buyer was there for only 30 minutes and then bought the horse, correct? Sounds like he assumed that the ad 100% represented the horse. That is your problem. His problem is length of time it has been since he kept the horse. If he really got hurt immediately, as he claims though, he will have health records to back that up and that will improve his chances in a lawsuit. He may be exagerating that though, in order to scare you. Hard to tell.

3) What kind of money is the horse worth? Under 2K or 3K? I would call the buyer up, say you don't want anything bad to happen to the horse and offer to buy the horse back as long as the horse is EXACTLY in the same condition healthwise as when he left the farm. DO NOT ADMIT TO ANYTHING and keep conversation at a minimum. Do not agree to pay board, vet bills, transport to his farm, anything else. Just refund his money. End of story. Pick up your horse and consider it a lesson learned about some people, about wording ads carefully, whatever. 2K or 3K is going to be a lot cheaper than hiring a lawyer. Or phone (or write) him and tell him that you believe that horse was not misrepresented but you are willing to give him half what he paid for the animal, as the animal will now have to be retrained.

4) If he was sold for a lot more than 2K, then consider a lawyer and going the full nine yards. But be careful, you may not win. Furthermore, most lawyers are going to want a retainer to even start working on such a case. I would imagine that they will ask for around...2K up front.

5) My advice (and that is all it is): If you buy the horse back and the horse is somewhere between what he used to be and what the buyer says he is now, just find a new owner ASAP. He is still too dangerous for you and not what you want. Even if you have to give him away. The sooner you are done with the whole mess the better.

6) You can ignore the buyer. Proceed as if nothing happened and let the chips fall where they may. You never hear from him again, or he may harrass you constantly or he sues. That option would eat at my gut though, I hate October surprizes.

[gloriginger]

why do people post without reading the whole thread? Here's a hint, if you click on the persons name you can select the "find all posts by this person" and you can read any additional information they gave after the original post. If you do that BEFORE you post, especially on a Very long thread- many of your questions will be answered.


Granted, I am a bit crabby at the moment...

[tweeter]

Won't the fact that he's had the horse for 5 months enter into it somewhere? A person can do a hell of a lot of damage to even the best natured horse in that length of time. Why wait so long? If he was that bad I should think he'd have know in the first month, if not sooner......UNLESS he was contributing to the problem and now it's totally out of control?

[Cielo Azure]

I wonder if the documented fact that the market for American Quarter horses has dropped like a stone in the last year (much of it in the last six months) can only help the seller. What a quarter horse was worth in June, it isn't what it is worth today. Now, even the best of the best are almost being given away. That alone might come into play into all of this. To the seller: document, document, document. Find those Internet articles about the market for quarter horses and print them out now.

The fact that you SHOWED the horse is probably the most important asset you have. You can not show a horse that is a monster. For me, that is your most compelling arguement as to documenting the behavioral mind set of this horse. We all know that a pscho horse can't easily be shown. If it came to that, it would be easy to convince a judge/mediator of that too. Find documentation (photos of horse and ribbons, you tubes, entry forms, etc) of shows, trail rides, anything that you attended. Get friends to write testimonials to the horse's temperament.

I might be tempted to write the buyer with a letter documenting show awards, entries to shows, trailering to shows, testimonials, etc too. Explain that the horse they are describing could not possibly have accomplished going into a show ring, as he did for you.

Document the drop in horse's values due to the quarter horse market and that this horse just isn't worth as much. Attach this documentation also.

Document time past since sale of horse with no communication from the buyer or seller for months.

Suggest horse rescues that will take horses in your area. But that as much as you hope the buyer and the horse the best of luck , you are in no position to take the horse back, as having lost your job you have NO money(even if you would like to). But be sure to end the letter on the reality is that you did nothing wrong, the horse left your barn as described and you owe them nothing. Then leave it at that.

Send it registered and make it as nice, non-threatening, and as legally sound as possible. As you really don't have any money, try to get friends with some experience to read it before you send it out.

This tactic may be high risk but it may be a higher risk to do nothing. I don't know.

[grayarabs]

Well I would not respond to the man. If the horse had thrown and hurt him badly five days after the sale - maybe he would have a case. But five months? Did the horse ever hurt him - ie doctor or ER visits -documented?
I would not talk to him - I would not offer any kind of money for anything.
A thought - perhaps not a nice one but....... if the horse is such a bucker - why could the guy not sell him as bucking stock?
Also wonder - did the guy ever show the horse? Compete on him - any way to search and find this out? Any way to find out what the guy has done with the horse the past five months?

[tweeter]

Grayarabs, that's exactly what I meant. I've gotten stuck on a horse before, and I'm sure I'm not the only one...but seriously, you buy a horse, say nothing for 5 months and then decide it's a dangerous horse? Ummmm, I don't think so.

I'd say nothing to him and see what he does. If he does decide to persue it, I'd want detailed, documented proof of every single thing that horse has done for the last 5 months. Not just the bad, but where he was stabled, what was he fed, how was he worked, by whom, etc. I can't see where he has a leg to stand on after that length of time.

[macmtn]

SO....WHAT HAPPENED? Inquiring minds are..inquiring..

[DawnT]

I'd like to know too after reading the whole post

[meaty ogre]

Didn't Kentucky pass a mandatory disclosure law pertaining to horse sellers? (I know this is sorta off-topic since I don't know where the OP is from, but it's sort of in the same vein).

I've been googling but haven't been able to find a link to the statute or a comprehensive list of other states that have similar statutes. I've only ever sold one so it's not of the utmost importance to me, but I do think it would be a good resource to have for those that do some selling. I first heard of it in an Equus magazine and I remember thinking that it seemed to be a small but decisive shift in the caveat emptor attitude when it comes to buying a horse to placing more responsibility on the seller's shoulders.

[Flash44]

CERTIFIED LETTERS INDICATE THE PERSON MEANS BUSINESS

I sold a saddle to someone off craigslist, and that sale went bad. To make a long story short, I had to send a letter to the last known address of the buyer and then wait 30 days before I could begin civil proceedings. Attorneys are expensive, and it is possible the buyer was able to get some legal advice for free (off the internet, from a friend, etc) and got the ball rolling wrt a civil case without incurring an attorney fee.

I would research your local laws pertaining to sales of goods, and local contract law, and make sure you have your ducks in a row. Be very careful in how you respond, and I would not respond to this person without having an attorney review my response.