propping?

[dorytuo]

Hello. I'm not so well versed in racing and was reading a post that talked about a horse propping and being DQ'd for it. What does that mean if the horse is propping?

Thanks!

[Laurierace]

Propping is slamming on the brakes and coming to a stop or close to it, most of the time throwing the rider in the process.

[Blinkers On]

Sort of an impromptu sliding stop for race horses. It does occur more often during training and slower speeds than it does at a run, like during a race or a workout. THOUGH it can and does happen. Very bad behaviour during a race and should result in a horse being ruled off. Dangerous in so many ways.

[dorytuo]

Thanks for the info. :) I've only been to the races a handful of times but I've never seen that happen.

[arena run]

Isn't propping more technically a stop on the forehand? Rather than a sliding stop w/the butt in the ground.

I've got a mare who 'props' when coming up onto the first barrel. What you want is their butts up under them and rating into the turn -- but what I get w/her is a bone-jarring JAM_JAM_JAM as she slams onto her front end. sylvia

[tbracer65]

Sort of an impromptu sliding stop for race horses. It does occur more often during training and slower speeds than it does at a run, like during a race or a workout. THOUGH it can and does happen. Very bad behaviour during a race and should result in a horse being ruled off. Dangerous in so many ways.

Exactly. I recently had a horse that never attempted anything in the morning breezes or schooling races (actually breezed extremely well) -- was the favorite first time out & propped 1/2 way through the race. He was on the van the next morning. After watching the replay you could definitely tell he didn't like the stick (never had to use it in the morning besides a tap here or there as he always breezed so well).... but it can be someone else's problem as I refused to train him as that to me is extremely dangerous. The horse was at a dead run. He couldn't prop to a dead stop as he was going so fast so he went left right left stop --- rider went flying -- luckily didn't get hurt. Again -- horse just went through a vet check -- no soundness issues (I've seen them prop from being sore) & had NEVER shown any signs of propping in the mornings. At most he would swish his tail here or there or pin his ears but never even attempted to slow down. I completely agree that they should be ruled off. Unfortunately the horse I had in training will be running down south with another trainer the owner found.:no:

[Blinkers On]

It can be either. Some proppers are very good at it and sink their asses in deep.. even at a decent clip.
Yesterday (I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it myself...) I saw a baby in company with full cup blinkers. Prop sooo low and hard it would have put most cutting horses to shame! The poor guy on his back was singing soprano! He did manage to stay on though. The benefit of the hind end dropping.. you can usually manage to stay aboard... even of your "parts" are making tears stream down your face

[Pat Ness]

After watching the replay you could definitely tell he didn't like the stick (never had to use it in the morning besides a tap here or there as he always breezed so well).... but it can be someone else's problem as I refused to train him as that to me is extremely dangerous. The horse was at a dead run. He couldn't prop to a dead stop as he was going so fast so he went left right left stop --- rider went flying -- luckily didn't get hurt. Again -- horse just went through a vet check -- no soundness issues (I've seen them prop from being sore) & had NEVER shown any signs of propping in the mornings. At most he would swish his tail here or there or pin his ears but never even attempted to slow down. I completely agree that they should be ruled off. Unfortunately the horse I had in training will be running down south with another trainer the owner found.:no:

As an owner, sending my horse off to be trained, I would expect my trainer would help my horse understand what is expected of them. Wouldn't it be great if every horse that a trainer got understood how to naturally rate, naturally pass other horses, naturally take to the stick. That is not the way it is and I am getting tired of trainers that don't seem to want to train - they just want them to have it naturally and then the trainer just wants to condition.

It has been a real eye opener for me to see just what training means to a lot of the race track group. If that were the way it was teaching a horse to do anything, most horses would be shipped. It is ridiculous how many horses are blamed as no talents when I am starting to see it is the fact that anyone can get a trainers license and we have no talent trainers abounding out there.

[Blinkers On]

Upon re reading this, I have to say that we do teach the horses what is required of them. Not all trainers in any part of this sport are created equal. Nor are they equal in jumping, reining, western pleasure etc etc etc.
We are also not very often the people who broke the horse, a disadvantage more than not.
For instance the horse we recently were sent that had been "galloped in a field." Had never seen another horse with a rider, and it's questionable if he really had a rider. It's a wreck waiting to happen. JMO. We managed to get him galloping and sent him out to the farm for a different issue.
People love for us to work miracles with a horse that is maybe broke enough to ride and maybe not.
I cannot for the life of me figure out why so many owners are looking for a deal that ends up costing them in the long run. IE. paying to get a horse "broke" and then having to send it to someone else to actually get the job done.
To further this thought. Many of us play the claiming game. We aren't always claiming a well behaved animal. Or a horse with a hard mouth and bad manners that's been through barn after barn and had many different riders. many different bad riders with worse hands. We often have little time allowed by an owner before they want to run the horse back. So we do what we have to do to get the job done and "please" the owner at the same time. Tough task.

[tbracer65]

As an owner, sending my horse off to be trained, I would expect my trainer would help my horse understand what is expected of them. Wouldn't it be great if every horse that a trainer got understood how to naturally rate, naturally pass other horses, naturally take to the stick. That is not the way it is and I am getting tired of trainers that don't seem to want to train - they just want them to have it naturally and then the trainer just wants to condition.

It has been a real eye opener for me to see just what training means to a lot of the race track group. If that were the way it was teaching a horse to do anything, most horses would be shipped. It is ridiculous how many horses are blamed as no talents when I am starting to see it is the fact that anyone can get a trainers license and we have no talent trainers abounding out there.

Pat -- PM me & I will GLADLY give you the owners phone number & you can try & train this gelding to like being hit with the stick. I would just rather not get someone hurt (or killed when the horse is on the lead & props & the rider gets run over by 5 other horses), trying to 'TRAIN' it out of him. If a horse doesn't like the stick, they don't like the stick. Who knows what he won't like next time (which is why when the owner recommended we enter him next time without a stick I said no way find someone else (actually I recommended he retire him to another discipline)). Some horses have attitudes that you can't train out of them. Being a good trainer is knowing your horse & knowing when they don't want to run. This gelding doesn't want to run which is why I sent him home. A bad trainer that should NOT have a license is the trainer that keeps dangerous horses like this on the track trying to 'train' them out of something they don't obviously want to do. This horse has a TON of talent --- but doesn't want to be 'pushed' to run any faster than he has in his mind. If it's something that's not dangerous then, sure, I'll keep the horse in training as within time the problem should be able to resolve -- but when I find it dangerous ... that horse is sent back home - plain and simple. I'm not going to take an owners money & endanger lives just to keep an owner happy that her horse is in training to race.

[Blinkers On]

I had one this summer that the boys couldn't get to the track let along get around the track. Some how I got the vote. 3/4 cup blinkers, spurs, a whip, a pony to take me to the 5/8 pole like he was breaking me off to work and the bloodly horse found training was far easier than propping. He's one of very few horses that prop that can develop a much better attitude.
I hate that type!
Like what was just expressed it is a very dangerous habit that they can develop.
To be truthful I did hit this horse several times. All while attatched to the pony. I wouldn't dare to hit him while training. I would have been getting in touch with the cannon ball in me!
I did let him know that when I kiss to him he had better jump forward into the bridle in a hurry or a few more solid whacks would be coming his way. We chatted about this before we ever got on the track. He tried me once and I never did have another problem with him. His belly was stinging after he tried me that time.
If I have to get on it to clean up someone else's mess, I do talk quietly, but I do carry a big stick.

[Laurierace]

Pat -- PM me & I will GLADLY give you the owners phone number & you can try & train this gelding to like being hit with the stick. I would just rather not get someone hurt (or killed when the horse is on the lead & props & the rider gets run over by 5 other horses), trying to 'TRAIN' it out of him. If a horse doesn't like the stick, they don't like the stick. Who knows what he won't like next time (which is why when the owner recommended we enter him next time without a stick I said no way find someone else (actually I recommended he retire him to another discipline)). Some horses have attitudes that you can't train out of them. Being a good trainer is knowing your horse & knowing when they don't want to run. This gelding doesn't want to run which is why I sent him home. A bad trainer that should NOT have a license is the trainer that keeps dangerous horses like this on the track trying to 'train' them out of something they don't obviously want to do. This horse has a TON of talent --- but doesn't want to be 'pushed' to run any faster than he has in his mind. If it's something that's not dangerous then, sure, I'll keep the horse in training as within time the problem should be able to resolve -- but when I find it dangerous ... that horse is sent back home - plain and simple. I'm not going to take an owners money & endanger lives just to keep an owner happy that her horse is in training to race.

I am not completely sure that Pat was even referencing you, but either way I commend your decision. I am probably destined to stay a small time trainer because I tell prospective owners that I don't run sore horses....ever! Most owners say thanks but no thanks right then and there but the ones who stay are glad that I follow through with that. If they are sore I send them home even though that means taking money out of my pocket. It takes a real horseman (and probably a not so good businessman) to put the best interest of the animal first before their own pocketbook.

[Pat Ness]

Blinkers On - I agree that cleaning up someone else's mess is way harder and it is rare it is the horse's fault - bad riding or a sore horse is usually the cause of all training problems in all venues of the horse world.

TBRacer65 - I never thought you would think I meant to "train" the whip out of them.
That is cruel. What good would it do as the stick is only supposed to be used as an encouragement tool or a directional tool if they start weaving around. Also, I am all for the ruling off of crops longer then 10". That is enough to help the horse stay on the straight and narrow. Training horses to do their job for the sheer joy of it is possible and if the horse isn't fast enough or willing to put out and they are not sore - then the horse needs to try a different venue. There is a niche for each horse as there is for each human. Anyway, that is my definition of a trainer.

[tbracer65]

I am not completely sure that Pat was even referencing you, but either way I commend your decision. I am probably destined to stay a small time trainer because I tell prospective owners that I don't run sore horses....ever! Most owners say thanks but no thanks right then and there but the ones who stay are glad that I follow through with that. If they are sore I send them home even though that means taking money out of my pocket. It takes a real horseman (and probably a not so good businessman) to put the best interest of the animal first before their own pocketbook.

I wasn't quite sure either ---but she did quote me & it read like she was directing I should have kept the horse in training to 'train' it out of him. It's different when you have a youngster that props in the morning going slow...usually easy to break -- but when they do it DURING a race -- that's all I need to see. I'm like you -- would rather put the best interest of the animal (& who's on them) first before my pocketbook.

[Pat Ness]

The 4 horses we have owned and raced were not claimers, but just learning about racing. So Blinkers On, I do believe you when you mention that it is a different story when the horses have more of a history behind them. For some reason, I got the impression that tbracer65's horse was also a newbie.

And for the record - I am very happy with our trainer we have now.

[solargal]

We had one that took to propping. He was really lazy, so one day a gallop boy got on him and gave him a smack to get going and he propped and wheeled. Well, he dropped him and from that point on was trouble. He never tried it with me and I tried wearing spurs and everything because he wouldn't go out of a slow lope unless it was his idea.

When we put somebody stronger on he would prop working. Prop and wheel. He left very quickly. Never tried to race him. Too dangerous. He never even got an official work because he refused to go fast enough.:lol:

His nickname "fatz". He was gorgeous though.

[SleepyFox]

I had a horse prop during a breeze a week ago and my back is still in so much pain it's ridiculous! :lol: We went to go inside another horse and the horse I was on drew even with the other's flank, slammed on those breaks and bolted hard right. I stayed on, but it wasn't pretty. Not my horse and I don't know anything about him, but it seemed like he didn't want to pass another horse and my feedback was that he has some serious and dangerous issues that need to be addressed ASAP.

I've seen more horses prop on the forehand than do a sliding stop and, from a rider's perspective, the forehand prop is like being in a cartoon - suddenly the horse isn't going forward anymore but you still are. Difficult to stay on and hard on your body even if you don't come off. Usually the prop is followed by a wheel and bolt, which just adds to the fun.