Big Brown injured - out of BC and retired... [Archive]

Glimmerglass

Oct. 13, 2008, 11:33 AM

Hopefully the Sooner native (http://www.netstate.com/states/intro/ok_intro.htm) won't get blamed for the injury ;)

Trainer Rick Dutrow says the 3-year-old colt appeared to kick himself while working on the turf course at Aqueduct with stablemate Kip Deville.

lalahartma1

Oct. 13, 2008, 11:40 AM

Good lord!

QuillcoteFarm

Oct. 13, 2008, 11:55 AM

Just as an aside, I have always wondered why bell boots are not used more in training?:confused:

I dont think bell boots would have prevented what happened. I had an incident with my event horse while going XC with bell boots. He had smashed the inside of his right front with a hind and literally blew a hole in it, the side of his hoof :eek: I can see how this would happen especially when they have racing shoes on.

Like someone else said at least it was not a life threatening injury. ;)

jetandmegs4

Oct. 13, 2008, 11:58 AM

I hope he's ok. That sounds horrible!

findeight

Oct. 13, 2008, 12:04 PM

Had one do that in a trailer despite wraps and bells and all that. Never even hit a bump yet he came out with 3 1/2 hooves instead of 4. It will grow back and they can use some prosthetic type procedures as it grows...make him a new hoof if they have to.

Sh*t happens.

On one hand, sorry for a potentially great career cut too short. On the other hand...well...I never expected him to last this long or face Curlin. Just a feeling that one way or other, he would not race as a 4 year old...or make the BC at 3. Such is the nature of the business any more.

Glimmerglass

Oct. 13, 2008, 12:07 PM

Not that it would make a difference with the end decision, but it does not appear as if their right hand man of Ian McKinlay was there to personally examine the hoof after the injury.

Also if you read the remarks closely it seems that the cut transpired during the workout (6F on turf in 1:12.89.) which actually was a pretty strong effort despite having such a violent occurance during the work.

The injury would take too long to heal to make the Breeder's Cup or any other race this year, his connections said. Co-owners Michael Iavarone - along with his wife and two daughters - and Paul Pompa Jr. observed the work from the backstretch along with trainer Richard Dutrow Jr.

After consultation with blacksmith Alex Leaf - who was at Aqueduct - and noted equine hoof specialist Ian McKinlay - who was not on-site - the decision was made to retire the horse.

Source: DRF 10-13-08 (http://drf.com/news/article/99020.html)

findeight

Oct. 13, 2008, 12:11 PM

Yeah, Glimmer, cannot visulize him continuing at that rate minus half a foot, physics just don't work that way.

Perhaps a little exaggeration...but it is a nasty injury even if it did not really take half the foot.

BTW, is that the same foot as had/has the quarter crack issues or the "good" one?

jengersnap

Oct. 13, 2008, 12:14 PM

Poor fella. His bad hoof was the left, correct? And now he's torn off the right? I never heard the reason the left had problems to begin with. Does anyone know? Best wishes on his recovery.

C.J.

Oct. 13, 2008, 12:17 PM

findeight

Oct. 13, 2008, 12:23 PM

...look as negligent as him popping yet another quarter crack in an already injured hoof.

Anyone think this has anything to do with Curlin and Casino Drive?

Some will no doubt say they were looking for an out and this colt has had undeniable problems with his quarter crack (s).

Who knows.

I wasn't there and don't have any real facts to base an opinion on. I know what I think though.

C.J.

Oct. 13, 2008, 12:35 PM

I don't know--I'm betting he re-popped that quarter crack (same right front that had quarter crack before the Derby) and saying it was a workout injury bc that doesn't look as negligent as him popping yet another quarter crack in an already injured hoof.

Anyone think this has anything to do with Curlin and Casino Drive?

I hate that I am so distrusting and cynical, but this group is hardly the epitome of forthrightness and truth. I know they are now saying that he “tore the bulb off” his right front--if that is true, why were they consulting blacksmiths after it happened? Tearing off of skin seems more like a vet issue to me.

He had quarter-cracks on that foot before, so it seems logically they would return. Until I see pictures otherwise, that is what I am choosing to believe. Sad.

jengersnap

Oct. 13, 2008, 12:38 PM

Found another article:

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hyT-75zk2wGiy4vpY0J9GkwE3XxAD93PN0MG0

The horse was also dealing with a painful quarter crack in his left front hoof. That injury is unrelated to the injury he sustained Monday.

By the way, if you look at the second inset photo where he's being exercised, he has bell boots on, so they probably are standard equipment for his morning gallops.

Glimmerglass

Oct. 13, 2008, 12:55 PM

I'll move up the odds to 60/40 that Curlin will not race in the Breeders Cup Classic now.

His connections were only pushed into doing so because BB was in there and couldn't afford - with the Eclipse award on the line - to dodge him.

However now sans Big Brown I think they can pass on it (if they want to) and try either the Group 1 Japan Cup on dirt or wait until the Grade 2 Clark Handicap at Churchill in early Nov also on dirt. I'm sure the Breeders' Cup officials and Santa Anita and even ABC/ESPN are putting a lot of pressure on them to race. Still if that is Curlin's last race and he stands a decent shot at not winning why do it?

findeight

Oct. 13, 2008, 01:04 PM

How has Curlin been schooling on the synthetic surface?

With all the talk that was going on in his camp about the decision to run or not being up to how he liked it, maybe they have an easy out now?

Which is a shame if they really may dodge it because it's not a sure win for them...what ever happened to racing to find the best?

Maybe same thing that happened to breeding to SOUND racing champions instead of the prematurely retired?

QHJockee

Oct. 13, 2008, 01:08 PM

Anyone think this has anything to do with Curlin and Casino Drive?

I DO I DO! And the hubby does too! Dutrow has always been a pu$$* when it comes to this horse facing Curlin (cuz he knows Curlin would whoop him). Good enough excuse to pull out.

He'll probably been in a foot cast tomorrow just so no one can get a real look at the injury.

horselips

Oct. 13, 2008, 01:18 PM

:rolleyes:
Gee. Big Brown out of the BC due to an injury. Now why does this not only not surprise me, but I'm wondering why it took so long for an 'injury' to happen.

Color me cynical as well.

No, I will not bet you that Curlin won't also get 'injured'.

Selleconn

Oct. 13, 2008, 01:43 PM

I had a horse rip off 1/4 of her hoof and heel. There was a ton of blood and she was initially very lame, but it only took about 3 months for her to be sound again. It took longer than that for the hoof to grow all the way down, which I assume would be necessary to train heavily or race, but it was far from a career ender for an eventer.

harvestmoon

Oct. 13, 2008, 02:05 PM

Lovely. :(

Hope he's okay.

Calico

Oct. 13, 2008, 02:06 PM

I didn't realize he was still at Aqueduct - makes me wonde if he was going to the Breeders Cup at all.

Regardless, about a year ago I placed a Ky Derby futures wager on a little-known 2-year old named Big Brown. Since then, it's been tough listening to assumptions that he only won races because his class was sub-par, and it was tough watching Desormeaux's "wtf" Belmont ride, and tough listening to the various ad hominem attacks against his connections. And even now, there is plenty of eye-rolling at the decision to end his career.

The reality is that Big Brown was a formidable classic distance horse that showed versatility, heart, and talent. And to me, he was a joy to witness in flight. That is what this horse means to me. Thank you Big Brown!

harvestmoon

Oct. 13, 2008, 02:12 PM

Glimmerglass

Oct. 13, 2008, 02:22 PM

I didn't realize he was still at Aqueduct - makes me wonde if he was going to the Breeders Cup at all.

IEAH/Dutrow were consistent in statements that they never planned to ship him to LA unil just a few days before. Some horses do run best when it is almost "right off the plane".

Dutrow said Big Brown would not ship to California until three days before the Classic. (http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/breederscup08/news/story?id=3589779) Tex Sutton was going have him and other Breeders' Cup bound horses on their Oct. 22 flight.

Drvmb1ggl3

Oct. 13, 2008, 02:23 PM

Are people seriously suggesting that Dutrow engineered the horse pulling a quarter to get out of the BC and not face Curlin? Damn, Slick Rick is an even more impressive trainer that I originally thought!

The horse was at Aqueduct because that is where Dutrow is.
It was already announced that the horse would retire at the end of this season, as he he won't heal in time to race this before the end of the year it's no surprise they would announce his retirement after what happened today.

A shame, because I would really have liked to see this horse answer some of the big questions, his Derby and Preakness were some of the most jaw dropping performances in living memory.

findeight

Oct. 13, 2008, 02:41 PM

A shame, because I would really have liked to see this horse answer some of the big questions, his Derby and Preakness were some of the most jaw dropping performances in living memory.

Yep...and now we will never know if he really was a great one or just another in a long string of those with a couple of great performances in them that quickly faded (remember Arazi?) or if he just got lucky.

I believe he did honestly hurt himself but am a bit cynical about the extent, always way too much drama around that one. Too bad.

DickHertz

Oct. 13, 2008, 02:44 PM

What is he stud fee going to be?

I think he'll be a flop at stud. We will see.

Glimmerglass

Oct. 13, 2008, 02:56 PM

What is he stud fee going to be?

I think he'll be a flop at stud. We will see.

Well I'm sure Three Chimneys will have him booked like a Howard Johnsons.

Talking about flops has anyone looked at the overhyped runner of this century - Smarty Jones? Yikes nothing like paying $100k+ at stud or 3x that at auction and what have his 1st crop done? Eh, yea right. More winners have been produced from Birdstone who stands for $10k. I never thought Smarty was more then a flash in the pan on the track with bloated "earnings" from a fat bonus by Oaklawn. At least Big Brown did far more then SJ by running and winning in the Haskell ;)

Laurierace

Oct. 13, 2008, 02:56 PM

Truthfully I was shocked he ever set foot on the track after the Belmont. I firmly believe his foot is secondary to his massive case of Curlinitis. Can't say I blame the poor guy, I would run for the shed too if I were him.

findeight

Oct. 13, 2008, 02:58 PM

Unfortunately, methinks this is not going to be a banner year in the breeding shed anyway.

With some major consolidations and collapses in the corporate world plus the tank in just about all markets, even those used to the kind of income that allows playing at racing may be hurting...or looking at a pink slip. or is getting slapped with one of those little blue folders that mean big legal bills.

Speaking of which, how is that horsey hedge fund that managed BB doing these days?

And what will the final syndication proceeds be?

Glimmerglass

Oct. 13, 2008, 02:59 PM

From Joe Drape - The New York Times "Big Brown Retiring After Hurting Hoof" (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/14/sports/othersports/14racing.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin)

They consulted with their blacksmith, as well as the hoof specialist Ian McKinlay, who managed the fragile feet of Big Brown throughout the colt’s career.

"It’s in a spot you cannot fix and is basically irreparable," Iavarone said. "Ian said we could get creative but we were facing long odds. We decided instead that it was time to retire Big Brown."

"We bought a racehorse that gave everyone around us more joy than anything you can ever imagine," said Iavarone. “As far as his career goes, it’s never going to be complete because, at the end of the day, the two biggest opportunities Big Brown had, we couldn’t make happen for him. He didn’t sweep the Triple Crown. Now he’s not going to run against Curlin."

texang73

Oct. 13, 2008, 03:03 PM

What is he stud fee going to be?

I think he'll be a flop at stud. We will see.

Are the really great racers usually a flop at stud? :cool: Very rare that the offspring can produce the same results...

Blinkers On

Oct. 13, 2008, 03:10 PM

Too too bad. The cynical part of me wants to say Casino Drive won very nicely yesterday. Curlin's been training well over the pro ride. Maybe there is or isn't a very valid reason to not run. If he grabbed a quarter and part of his foot and wears glue on shoes, it is entirely possible that he took a large part of the patch or all of his patch off as well as the shoe of that foot which doesn't leave a whole heap of foot. Which means they would definitely be pressed for time. They are doing the right thing by the horse rather than pressing on. If they had run and he'd run flat, then one would think that would reflect on his fee in he shed. At what his value to Three Chimney's is, they can't afford to have him soundly defeated or defeated at all. They want highest fee value at this point. IMO, BCC was a must beat Curlin and some improved 3 year old on their surface. Need to be horse of the Year, to have the speculated respect/value when he entered the breeding shed. His value in the shed declines as he runs less and less spectacular races. They have to cling to people will breed to BB because he won the Derby impressively.
Curlin's people are in MUCH less pressure to run Curlin if they think he doesn't work well over it this afternoon. It's good for them because they weren't the first one to opt out.

Glimmerglass

Oct. 13, 2008, 03:20 PM

From Ray Paulick's blogging (http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/live-blogging-big-brown-retirement-teleconference/) from the NTRA teleconference this afternoon with Ivarone

Iavarone is asked about whether or not he’ll be cheering for Curlin if he goes in the Classic. "I am completely in Curlin’s corner. If they give me a Curlin hat I’ll wear it."

I'll chip in $5 to dare him to wear a Curlin hat (http://www.horsehats.com/curlin.html) :D

Also cited was a statement from Jess Jackson - Stonestreet Farms:

"My family and I are saddened to learn of Big Brown’s career ending injury during his morning workout. I have always said what an incredible horse Big Brown is and that the bay colt brought energy and excitement to our industry, especially during his run at the Triple Crown.

"I am equally disappointed that Big Brown and Curlin will never compete against each other. It was a dream of mine and thousands of other fans of the sport. Now, we all join together in wishing Big Brown a speedy recovery."

All that said I hope Jerry Moss thinks about cross-entering Zenyatta into the BCC just in case Jackson's camp announces tomorrow they are skipping the BCC. Without Curlin or BB I think she wouldn't be taxed nearly as much.

Madeline

Oct. 13, 2008, 05:02 PM

A shame, because I would really have liked to see this horse answer some of the big questions, his Derby and Preakness were some of the most jaw dropping performances in living memory.

I realize that it's cool to hate BB's connections, but I think that too few people are remembering those explosive bursts we saw in the Derby and Preakness. I think he was brilliant (if possibly undertrained to the Belmont). I wanted to see more, and will wear my "GO BIG BROWN" button with pride.

That said, I haven't warmed up to Curlin.

Go Casino Drive!!

rcloisonne

Oct. 13, 2008, 05:06 PM

Are people seriously suggesting that Dutrow engineered the horse pulling a quarter to get out of the BC and not face Curlin? Damn, Slick Rick is an even more impressive trainer that I originally thought!
Don't you find it rather incredible there's no reported vet involved to confirm "the injury"? Or that they didn't have his usual BN farrier take a peak? Or that Dutrow has been soooo quiet after discovering Curlin was entered in the BC? I'd been waiting for SOMETHING outrageous from this camp. I guess this is it. :lol:

As someone already said, BB couldn't afford to be beaten in this race. And beaten he would have been. Not that he'll amount to a handful of beans in the breeding shed anyway...

Dispatcher

Oct. 13, 2008, 06:48 PM

Don't you find it rather incredible there's no reported vet involved to confirm "the injury"? Or that they didn't have his usual BN farrier take a peak? Or that Dutrow has been soooo quiet after discovering Curlin was entered in the BC? I'd been waiting for SOMETHING outrageous from this camp. I guess this is it. :lol:

As someone already said, BB couldn't afford to be beaten in this race. And beaten he would have been. Not that he'll amount to a handful of beans in the breeding shed anyway...

Yes, interesting. Why no vet? Also, they said there was "...a little bit of blood..." You would think there would have abeen a LOT of blood ripping off the bulb of his heel. Guess they exaggerated a bit.......Hate that.

Rubyfree

Oct. 13, 2008, 07:05 PM

Well... add me to the 'not surprised' club- but really, have you guys seen the picture on the front page on the DRF? I wouldn't call it 'half his hoof'- but holy schnikies, that is ugly. I'm also assuming from the state of the remaining hoof that he had indeed popped another quarter before this incident, considering the angles & location of the glue. I will continue to wonder what this horses career would have been given different handling- now i'm just hoping that he can make a solid recovery, regardless. Whatever we think of his connections, he ran some awe inspiring races, and certainly gave us all something to talk about.

Barnfairy

Oct. 13, 2008, 08:29 PM

Big Brown's RF hoof (http://www.drf.com/images/brownhoof_300x300_101508.jpg)

Would you need to wait for vet confirmation before coming to the conclusion that there should be no racing on that hoof?

There's no cop-out conspiracy here, just another serving of the disappointment that is bound to come sooner or later with anything horse-related. That's all.

Selleconn

Oct. 13, 2008, 08:40 PM

Blinkers On

Oct. 13, 2008, 08:40 PM

They don't need a vet for a horse that grabs a quarter. It's a common problem. Horse stumbles leaveing the gate of during a work, or screws around while training. Boom you have a horse that's grabbed a quarter. That in and of itself is not such a big problem. The problem is that a large amount of the patch that was helping deal the the quarter crack was pulled off to. They would be up against it time wise to get the thing dried out, covered, reshod and comfortable, train, ship, train and run. It's alot to ask.
I believe they had every intent to run. The set him down in company for a sharp work. They got it, but it came with a not running clause. Our loss

Toadie's mom

Oct. 13, 2008, 09:54 PM

I could care less one way or the other as far as the conspiracy, but on my horse with a similar injury, the exposed lamina was bloody, red, and swollen (protruding well beyond the existing hoof wall) for many weeks. That hoof in the picture looks like my mare's looked after 3 months of wrapping and stall rest.

When I heard the media reports this morning I also thought it sounded exactly like an injury one of my horses suffered. He was confined to a stall for 3 months, hand walking for another month, then limited turn out for the 5th month. No offense Selleconn, but if our event horses were worth 30mil., and were stallions, well speaking for myself I'd have damn sure retired mine:yes:!!!!!!!!!

gubbyz

Oct. 13, 2008, 10:41 PM

"Truthfully I was shocked he ever set foot on the track after the Belmont. I firmly believe his foot is secondary to his massive case of Curlinitis."

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Barbara D.

Oct. 14, 2008, 12:28 AM

I could care less one way or the other as far as the conspiracy, but on my horse with a similar injury, the exposed lamina was bloody, red, and swollen (protruding well beyond the existing hoof wall) for many weeks. That hoof in the picture looks like my mare's looked after 3 months of wrapping and stall rest.

The bulb of Big Brown's heel was also torn apart, which is not reflected in a side photo.

It was as if he suffered two separate injuries, although they were obviously connected. The hoof and patch were torn off down to the 'meat' and the coronary band was noticeably swollen. On the back of his foot, he suffered a substantial tear in the bulb - perhaps an inch or so in a semi-circle, that reached to the edge of the torn hoof. That's where the blood came from, although there wasn't as much as one might think with such a deep-looking tear.

JER

Oct. 14, 2008, 01:11 AM

All that said I hope Jerry Moss thinks about cross-entering Zenyatta into the BCC just in case Jackson's camp announces tomorrow they are skipping the BCC. Without Curlin or BB I think she wouldn't be taxed nearly as much.

I'd love to see Zenyatta in the BCC but her connections tend to be very conservative with their horses.

IMO, Curlin should go on to Japan.

justalittlex

Oct. 14, 2008, 08:42 AM

Sorry to read all this, and hope he enjoys his years at stud. Go Zenyatta!

Acertainsmile

Oct. 14, 2008, 08:47 AM

I dont think there is any conspiracy... if they were to get him healed, then fit again to run, it would probably be sometime in February... and that's when the breeding sheds open... so rather than take chances and miss a year, they are retiring him NOW... kind of a no brainer with a horse like this.

findeight

Oct. 14, 2008, 09:36 AM

Nah, no conspiracy. Horse was a ticking time bomb to go out with those feet. Amazed he lasted as long as he did and unfortunate he was hooked up with unpopular connections.

Just wonder how time will treat his race record. Whether mare owners/managers will go for the hype or look at the number of races and times-although they only need to go fast enough to beat what they are in there against. Then there is the hoof issue.

He needed more to prove he was a great one-or just another good one in a crowded field of pricey studs.

We will see how he does when his yearlings hit the sales ring and then the track.

Jleegriffith

Oct. 14, 2008, 09:49 AM

Heads up for gruesome injury picture- http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2792464260058815717cntPFv

This was a picture of my horse who sliced open his foot at the coronary band and had a foot resection. The vets were not involved at all (new bolton) the farrier did all the work with the foot. We did x-ray and the horse was to be on stall rest for a month. The foot is growing back normally now.
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2941314530058815717Ftehns

caryledee

Oct. 14, 2008, 12:26 PM

That's really a shame, but I don't think Big Brown would have been any threat to Curlin. Big Brown looked like the second coming of Secretariat while he was on steroids, but IMO he hasn't been all that impressive since coming off them.

harvestmoon

Oct. 14, 2008, 02:29 PM

The bulb of Big Brown's heel was also torn apart, which is not reflected in a side photo.

It was as if he suffered two separate injuries, although they were obviously connected. The hoof and patch were torn off down to the 'meat' and the coronary band was noticeably swollen. On the back of his foot, he suffered a substantial tear in the bulb - perhaps an inch or so in a semi-circle, that reached to the edge of the torn hoof. That's where the blood came from, although there wasn't as much as one might think with such a deep-looking tear.

Thank you for posting your first hand experience, Barbara.

lalahartma1

Oct. 14, 2008, 03:30 PM

I'm firewalled from drf.....any other photos?

gubbyz

Oct. 14, 2008, 09:38 PM

Curlins in baby!!! Yay!!!

Barbara D.

Oct. 15, 2008, 05:32 PM

I'm firewalled from drf.....any other photos?

There are four shots at www.barbaralivingston.com/gallery/album2008races

If you click on the thumbnails they come up a bit larger.

lalahartma1

Oct. 15, 2008, 05:45 PM

Thanks!

Glimmerglass

Oct. 15, 2008, 05:50 PM

There are four shots at www.barbaralivingston.com/gallery/album2008races

Your shot "BigBrownHoof4BL" as taken from the rear looking towards the front hoof is the more dramatic of the bunch showing just how violent the tear was. As always - brilliant shots! You always get those key pictures that others in the business seem to overlook :)

gubbyz

Oct. 15, 2008, 10:48 PM

Actually it does not look as bad as I thought it would, and I have seen some nasty tears! Patch it up! :lol:

LaurieB

Oct. 16, 2008, 09:49 AM

Thanks for the great pictures, Barbara!

Coral

Oct. 16, 2008, 10:10 AM

A conspiracy? Really guys? Come on now. His feet have been bad from day 1, which is why they work him on the grass as much as possible. This was his last race anyway, they had been saying that for a while so really it makes sense to just retire him.

I think the real question is, does he have any business being in the breeding shed? Are those feet going to be something that he passes on to his progeny or will they get his athleticism with better feet? I'm sure the latter is what everyone is hoping for, and I think someone here mentioned that his feet problems could have been environmental from issues where he grew up. I guess we'll have a better idea two years from now when we see some of his foals.