Tell me about these feet...new pictures, page 6

[riana]

I recently changed farriers based on the vet's recommendation. I'm seeing some things in my horses feet that look wrong to me, but I'm no farrier...so I don't really know. She's never been an easy horse to get right. I'd like some opinions on her feet. I'd appreciate it if you could speak slowly and in small words :) I'm trying to learn...

Left front:

Lateral (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2127463970104161560PhCXQR)
Medial (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2182404430104161560TMOsQz)
Solar (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2519685300104161560mmGQkN)
Heels (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2418554730104161560ppPTNG)

Left hind:

Lateral (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2490412050104161560vNOMGw)
Medial (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2034673780104161560WnbBIW)
Solar (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2803212520104161560BZuSmL)
Heels (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2273083680104161560QuoIeN)

Right front:

Lateral (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2454076860104161560hWjIaw)
Medial (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2779604860104161560YKZmEU)
Solar (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2040171870104161560mSOanh)
Heels (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2586290100104161560ZMniaC)

Right hind:

Lateral (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2635524300104161560wtGmuc)
Medial (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2545311850104161560dsMCJq)
Solar (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2724222550104161560ikpzVx)
Heels (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2828624320104161560EyqaIP)

This horse was reshod 10 days ago. Since then, the left hind especially has slipped to the outside by about half and inch and back from the toe by about half an inch. To me, it looks like she's awfully long on the inside on the left hind. I also really don't like how this farrier has the heels of the shoe so narrow that they're ON the frog. The horse also seems to be trending toward underrun behind, which really concerns me, as that's never been a problem before.

Last time this horse was done, the farrier mentioned something about how she's getting sheared heels behind because she travels so narrow. I was really confused by that :confused:

My vet really likes this shoer, and she's really very, very bright...but I'm really getting concerned about my horse's feet. Should I go back to him, or should I scrap that idea and try to find someone new? I just don't know what to do.

We did try barefoot a little while ago and the horse got very sore.

[Sentry Chick]

The toes look long and I can see there is some jamming up at the quarters. Look at the coronary band and you can see that it's being pushed up. I don't know enough yet to be able to tell too much with what's going on with the hoof with the shoe's still on. I sent you a PM with some more info though.

[Patty Lynch]

I am not as experienced as some farriers here but, you do have a sheared LH. The shoe is likely shifting because of it unless the farrier left more room on the lateral branch intentionally. You have balance issues on that foot, foot to shoe surface contact issues on all 4, heel check issues, but there are some issues you dont have either so there are some pluses too. AT least the shoe is a proper size :winkgrin: I also don't know what this farrier had to start with either.

Every farrier is different about the amount of work they put into the job they do.... BUT, IMO, I see a lot of foot on this horse for being 10 days out. Your farrier trims very conservatively. Does your mare have soundness issues?

The majority of the issues I see all begin and end with the trim ;) If the trim isn't right, the shoes will never be right either. The trim plays a huge role. If the trim isn't right, the fit won't be right (no matter how much or how little you modify the shoe), if the fit isn't right, the nail up won't be right. If the nailing isn't right, you get lots of other issues.... you get the point ;)

[Daydream Believer]

The majority of the issues I see all begin and end with the trim ;) If the trim isn't right, the shoes will never be right either. The trim plays a huge role.

Amen to this. That horses problems are 99% trim related. Find someone that can trim properly with or without the shoes and you'll probably get his problems fixed.

[riana]

Thank you for your feedback. It's helpful to know I'm not imagining that there are some things wrong with this trim job/shoe job. I'm frustrated to hear the horse looks long. I don't know why the farrier would leave extra hoof on the horse. This horse does best when her feet are kept short, and he knows that (or should, because we've spoken about it.)

The extra shoe on the lateral side of the left hind was not there when the horse was shod. That shoe was also fit full to the toe. The shoe is quite literally sliding right off the foot. The horse is sore on that leg (well, sore on both hinds) and spend most of her time resting that foot while tied. She will also pick up a hind and sort of kick out before putting it down or resting it. We've had hock problems with this horse (hopefully managed now after hock injections) and it makes me crazy to see this "I'm hurting" behavior. I didn't ride yesterday because I thought her feet were too out of whack.

Could someone please explain/illustrate what sheared heels are? I just don't quite understand that part.

Oh, I also wanted to add: my horse has taken to standing with her hinds under her and her fronts under her. She looks sort of like an elephant on a barrel. I assume this is because she's not comfortable on her feet?

[BornToRide]

The horse does not actually have sheared heels - it is created by unbalanced trimming side to side (medio-lateral ymbalance). I see medio lateral imbalances in all 4 hooves, except the LF isn't quite as bad as the others, however it seems like the LF is being left too high in the heels instead.

And all show the typical forward toe/underslung heel syndrome that is common in shod horses :(

Oh, I also wanted to add: my horse has taken to standing with her hinds under her and her fronts under her. She looks sort of like an elephant on a barrel. I assume this is because she's not comfortable on her feet? This is also often due to incorrect trimming (leaving heels too high in the fronts) and compensation for shoe instability on smooth ground (makes stepping more slippery), so they stand more under for support.

[riana]

And all show the typical forward toe/underslung heel syndrome that is common in shod horses :(


This is what really concerns me, as we used to just have this low toe/low heel problem in the right front (the horse was in a 3 deg wedge on that foot.) Her hind feet used to look great with no underslung heels :(

This farrier is supposed to be great with long toed/low heeled horses. I'm just not seeing it.

[Patty Lynch]

The horse does not actually have sheared heels

What's YOUR definition of a sheared heel?

[riana]

Does anyone else have any thoughts?

[StoneWell]

From looking at the photos the trim itself is really bad, medial/lateral balance hasn't been taken into consideration or if it was it was done incorrectly, ALOT of farriers question themselves on how to balance the hind feet. No matter what kind of shoes any horse has on, if the trim isn't correct then it is all in vain. The shoes the horse has on look like they were just slapped on without much consideration to addressing any imbalance or conformation faults the horse has and I just can't see that continued shoeing as it currently is done will stimulate any heel growth.
(Dr. Stephen O'Grady defines a sheared heel as hoof capsule distortion resulting from the displacement of one heel bulb proximally relative to the adjacent heel bulb.) you can get on his website- equinepodiatry.com and look at the full description.
I love to work with vets and greatly value their knowledge from the fetlock up but they generally don't and never have trimmed or shod a horse and alot of times when one reccommends a farrier it isn't always because they are the best so you just have to be careful and ask around when changing farriers and look at other horses they have done. Good Luck on this farrier drama.

[IsolaBella09]

Yikes, those are some long toes. The balance looks completely off. It's almost as if he's sitting on his heel rather than standing square. Definitely needs to be re-shod or change farriers. Like others have said, trimming is the foundation to shoes. Without proper trimming, your shoes will be all off.

[Pippigirl]

Does anyone else have any thoughts?

Specifically looking at the left hind, I don't see so much of sheared heels. Having said that, I am not a farrier. What I see is a lot of bar on the medial side of the hinds and not so much on the lateral side. On the other feet the balance looks off. I'm not experience with shoes, but the heels look contracted as well as the hairlines being arched.

[Blinkers On]

My idea is who ever shod this horse is a hack.
Horse has way too much toe. Sheered heels not so much. Pull the toe back and the foot will appear very different. The shoes are too big for the horse. I can see a horse having a shoe extended if the farrier is trying to draw the heel back, bu if the toe was as it ought to be... already been said.
The foot looks healthy enough, just needs a new pedicure and likely a very different farrier.
If the shoe's are moving around maybe clips and a different farrier are in order. Personally I'd start with a shoe that fits and someone who's shoeing job doesn't need attention after 10 days.
It can be so frustrating finding one who does the job you like. Or that is useful.

[riana]

Thank you all for your feedback. It's actually really reaffirming to hear "whoever shod this horse is a hack." The farrier I had prior to this new guy didn't address some issues the horse was having (namely the long toe/low heel on the right front, which he wedged up) but I don't feel like he HURT the horse. This new guy is hurting my horse.

Today she was VERY painful and tried to either kick me or bite me if I touched her from the wither back. This is not at all normal for her. She was picking up the hind feet and holding them up...really looked like an "OUCH" thing. She was pointing the fronts. She's just body sore all over. This is just so frustrating after spending $$$ getting this horse sound. I placed my trust in this new farrier and it was obviously misplaced. I don't understand why the vet I use--who has been incredibly brilliant in every other regard--is so high on this farrier. If *I* can see that the trim/shoe job is not good for this horse, why can't she?

I have an appointment with someone new on Wednesday. He's been very highly recommended. I hope he can help.

I am torn on whether or not I should let my vet know about the problems I am having with my horse's feet and the all-over body soreness, and about the new farrier. Should I shoot her an email with the new problems and explain why I'm seeking out someone new? Or should I just move forward with the new guy and let her know later? We have been working pretty closely these last few weeks. I don't want to piss her off, but I do want to let her know my horse is not okay. Any ideas on this?

[BornToRide]

as we used to just have this low toe/low heel problem in the right front (the horse was in a 3 deg wedge on that foot.)
Did the wedging ever help?

IMO sheared heels are mostly created by years of serious unbalanced side to side trimming. I find that the more a horse unevenly wears his hooves due to musculo-skeletal issues, the more they tend to be screwed up by trimming. It is almost like the farriers cannot accomodate the more difficult hooves with their trimming - they seem to have a tendency to trim all hooves the same way, like they only ever have plan A. I currently have a case like this - after only 3 trims the horse's left hoof is starting to look already a lot more balanced. He still has a long ways to go though.

I also looked at another mare today who's developed severely underrun heels again with shoes on. She did not look like that when she was bare last winter - same farrier has been trimming her throughout.

vet I use--who has been incredibly brilliant in every other regard--is so high on this farrier. If *I* can see that the trim/shoe job is not good for this horse, why can't she?

One of the hardest things is for humans to agree on what should be normal. To me normal is a hoof on a wild/feral horse. This is what a healthy, normal hoof should look like. Anything else has been fabricated by one human or another. Many are simply not used to what normal actually looks like. They are used to the hoof pathologies they see every day and if a horse is sound, it is assumed that this is what normal should look like. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Any hoof that flares excessively, has underslung heels or heels that are too high , toes too long, medio-lateral imbalances and heel contraction is NOT a normal and healthy hoof!

[pegasus209]

I agree with the others, I think getting someone new is definetely a good move. I just wanted to commend you for reading your horse so well, and doing something about it. It's tough to find a shoer you really like that works well for each horse! Good luck. Also wanted to say you got some great pictures!
and--yeah, i think I'd email my vet and let her know you had to make changes. Let us know how the new one works out!

[riana]

Did the wedging ever help?

Well, what's your definition of "help" in this case?

The wedge got the bony column in alignment. The horse was in the wedge for a couple years, and that foot never really changed. It's didn't get worse, but it didn't get any better, either.

IMO sheared heels are mostly created by years of serious unbalanced side to side trimming. I find that the more a horse unevenly wears his hooves due to musculo-skeletal issues, the more they tend to be screwed up by trimming.

This horse was balanced side to side 12ish weeks ago when the new guy started with her. She did not come to him with this problem. This has developed in the last 12ish weeks (I'd have to check my calendar for the exact dates.)

It is almost like the farriers cannot accomodate the more difficult hooves with their trimming - they seem to have a tendency to trim all hooves the same way, like they only ever have plan A. I currently have a case like this - after only 3 trims the horse's left hoof is starting to look already a lot more balanced. He still has a long ways to go though.

I also looked at another mare today who's developed severely underrun heels again with shoes on. She did not look like that when she was bare last winter - same farrier has been trimming her throughout.

There are plenty of farriers in this area that are great with the run of the mill horses. They just can't handle any corrective shoeing at all.

There's a guy who does a lot of horses at my barn, CJF, has been recommended a few times as I've been asking around for farriers. I've seen a few of his horses and they're not bad. Nothing special, but they look okay to me. He also does a 20 something yo TB, who's feet I'd never noticed. Well, one day I took a look. He has the MOST underrun feet I've EVER seen, in front and behind. I got talking to his person, who then went and talked to the farrier, asking if they could address the issues, and she was told "That's just how he is. We'll never be able to change him."

Those are the sorts of farriers we've got plenty of :(

[pegasus209]

Riana,
are there any qualified (barefoot) trimmers near you? That may be a direction you could consider.

[BornToRide]

This horse was balanced side to side 12ish weeks ago when the new guy started with her. She did not come to him with this problem. This has developed in the last 12ish weeks (I'd have to check my calendar for the exact dates.) Totally sounds trim related then. Kudos for you to be so observant. Many owners never notice until the horse starts to show lameness issues.

The wedge got the bony column in alignment. The horse was in the wedge for a couple years, and that foot never really changed. It's didn't get worse, but it didn't get any better, either.I was just curious because this is generally what we hear - it either does not change, or it gets worse.


Medio lateral imbalances is one of the most common problems I see in trimming and it tends to be worst in hooves that toe in or out. The tricky part is that you can't just rely on looking at the heels when you pick up the leg, because of how it turns when you do, thanks to its alignment when flexed. The only reliable approach is to actually measure the collateral groove depth at the heels to make sure they are even or pretty darn close to even side to side.

I used to say that out of the numerous farriers around here, there were only two I would let touch my horse, but after what I saw today, I am no longer so sure about one of them........:-(

[riana]

Riana,
are there any qualified (barefoot) trimmers near you? That may be a direction you could consider.

I have no idea. I wouldn't even know where to look.

We tried this horse barefoot. She got very, very sore, very, very quickly. She is really a wimp and is super intolerant of hurting anywhere (which is why she's so upset right now and trying to nail me!) There is no "well, she'll be a bit sore and she'll get over it" with her. She is Not Okay with being sore.

Maybe boots would work? I just don't know anything about them.

I am not opposed to having her barefoot for a bit, but we would HAVE to manage the transition differently than "pull the shoes and see how she does."

[riana]

Totally sounds trim related then. Kudos for you to be so observant. Many owners never notice until the horse starts to show lameness issues.

Jeez, I try. It's so hard sometimes to know what the right thing to do IS. :(

[pegasus209]

I understand . Here's a link that may help you. Good luck! I hope she's comfy soon!
http://www.tribeequus.com/help.html

[BornToRide]

I know, I really do, especially if it comes to horses that are suffering greatly and the owner does not want to hear what needs to be said, because they are so stuck in their ways ............I know of two chronically laminitic horses - nothing the owners have done has helped, while I know one of the horses definitely improved each time when I took the feeding over (I fed no more grain), but sadly, they will not listen to me. They are sure they are doing the right thing. All I can do is try :(

[Blinkers On]

I think if your horse is showing some signs of discomfort at least a call to your vet might be useful. Have a conversation and address your concerns and thoughts. Same with farrier "B." Be VERY expressive and picky about the job and how it's being done. And frank about the horse's history.
Remember any significant change in angle can cause some soreness/adjustment problems. Like taking off a 3 degree pad. Although 3 degrees sounds very small to us, it is actually a fairly big change. Don't expect miracles immediately after the new farrier visits. A gram or two of bute and packing the feet can help with heat and discomfort of changes. As short term therapy.
Don't disparage or bad mouth or maybe even mention who the other guy is/was. Just say you had this job done 10 days or so ago and were quite displeased with the job. And go into the history.
It's been my experience vague on the who and very pointed about the what.

[Tom Bloomer]

I recently changed farriers based on the vet's recommendation.
Based on the photos you posted, you need to find another vet.

My vet really likes this shoer, and she's really very, very bright...
Really? What does she like about him? He must be very attractive. What was your previous farrier doing that was worse than what your "vet's boyfriend" is doing now?

Should I go back to him, or should I scrap that idea and try to find someone new? I just don't know what to do.
If I understand you correctly, you switched farriers not because you had a problem, but because your vet really likes a different farrier.

If you didn't burn your bridges with the previous (ugly?) farrier, perhaps you could talk him into taking you back.

[Tom Bloomer]

NOOOO these aren't sheared heels.

Click here (http://www.blackburnforge.com/images/sheared.jpg)

[Patty Lynch]

NOOOO these aren't sheared heels.

Click here (http://www.blackburnforge.com/images/sheared.jpg)

Tom....Look at the LH heel shot. The medial heel bulb has been shoved proximal relative to the lateral heel bulb. Why is that not considered a sheared heel?

Edited to ask you if you're being sarcastic? Your pic is almost the same as the pic I marked and emailed back to the OP...

[riana]

If I understand you correctly, you switched farriers not because you had a problem, but because your vet really likes a different farrier.

I switched farriers because the horse had been in a wedge pad on one foot for a couple YEARS with zero improvement in that foot. Baring everything else, this horse is now out of the wedge and the boney column is in alignment according to the radiographs.

I was continually harping on my old farrier to back up the toes. When I did not harp on him, the toes got long and the horse got sore. Harping on someone for two years gets old after awhile. I know he felt the same way.

If you didn't burn your bridges with the previous (ugly?) farrier, perhaps you could talk him into taking you back.

I have considered this option. I consider it my last resort. I don't know if my old guy would take me back. We parted ways fairly amicably. My former farrier is not the best option for my horse, but would be better than what I have now. What I want to find is someone who can shoe this horse the way she needs to be done with no harping. The old guy doesn't LIKE to shoe the horse as short as she needs.

[Tom Bloomer]

Tom....Look at the LH heel shot. The medial heel bulb has been shoved proximal relative to the lateral heel bulb. Why is that not considered a sheared heel?

Edited to ask you if you're being sarcastic?
Yes. I don't want people to think I'm attractive, polite, superficial, and politically correct. That saying about beauty and truth is just a crock. The truth is usually pretty ugly.

[Tom Bloomer]

I switched farriers because the horse had been in a wedge pad on one foot for a couple YEARS with zero improvement in that foot. Baring everything else, this horse is now out of the wedge and the boney column is in alignment according to the radiographs. How do you KNOW the radiographs show proper alignment? Do you have Laterals with both feet standing on blocks so the horse is equal weight bearing on both feet? No, you don't because your vet doesn't know how to take laterals for bone alignment evaluation. That course is an ELECTIVE. Do you have anterior/posterior views showing equal joint spacing? No you don't. Your vet doesn't know to look for that either. If your vet knew that stuff, she would also know good farriery from bad . . . you wouldn't be here complaining that she referred you to a hack.

If you want competent professionals working on your horse, then you have to take it upon yourself to investigate ther qualifications, EDUCATION, and experience before you hire them.

Veterinarians do NOT get any education on farriery in vet school unless they choose a technical elective in lameness. What vets know about farriery they learn by taking it upon themselves to study whatever they can wherever they can. Same goes for farriers and trimmers. If you want one that is competent and educated, you have to find out what their educational background is by asking. Simple questions; "How many hours of continuing education have you accumulated?" "What seminars have you been to in the last 3 years?" "What books have you read?" Are you an active member of an educational organization? Do you ever have your peers review and critique your work?

If somebody gets nervous or defensive answering those questions, that ought to be a clue you're dealing with a hack. You can confirm it by asking them "what is a sheared heel?" :yes:

If you want to make an informed decision, then you have to take that responsibility upon yourself to gather INFORMATION, not reccomendation. When you make a decision based on somebody elses rocomendation, you are putting the responsibility for that decision on the person making the recomendation. WHY would you give up YOUR POWER to choose intelligently instead of blindly?

[Patty Lynch]

Yes. I don't want people to think I'm attractive, polite, superficial, and politically correct. That saying about beauty and truth is just a crock. The truth is usually pretty ugly.

Hey now! No knocking Keats :lol::winkgrin:

But I agree, the truth can be pretty ugly.

Now you are attractive, polite, superficial, politically correct, with a sarcastic wit ;)

[Rick Burten]

Tom....Look at the LH heel shot. The medial heel bulb has been shoved proximal relative to the lateral heel bulb. Why is that not considered a sheared heel?
I too am not so sure that this fits the description of classic sheared heels.

http://www.equipodiatry.com/shearhls.htm

http://books.google.com/books?id=0HeO3I8MGFcC&pg=PA386&lpg=PA386&dq=sheared+heels+in+horses&source=web&ots=8U1wUQhLL_&sig=V7FXQRnfBG1TWQNNXB4SOeiFS8Y&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=7&ct=result

I do see many 'issues' with these feet, none of which are insurmountable.

[Patty Lynch]

Thank you, Rick... but, can you please enlighten me then to what term you would use to describe the heels in the pic that Tom has marked?

Cuz I really thought these heels fit into both of the articles you posted. What criteria are they not meeting for the condition? Albeit, it isn't as extreme as we usually see.... but it is there.

It's been a LONG weekend so please excuse me if I'm missing something here :winkgrin: Glad you made it home okay.

[Tom Bloomer]

I too am not so sure that this fits the description of classic sheared heels.
Is that because you know could fix it in one shoeing? Whereas "classic" sheared heel is due to conformational deformity or deformity combined with years of attempts at correcting the deformity - something you can't fix, just help manage.

[Patty Lynch]

If this horse is like this because of conformation and not poor trimming, it will be a long term management case though :confused:

[riana]

How do you KNOW the radiographs show proper alignment? Do you have Laterals with both feet standing on blocks so the horse is equal weight bearing on both feet? No, you don't because your vet doesn't know how to take laterals for bone alignment evaluation. That course is an ELECTIVE. Do you have anterior/posterior views showing equal joint spacing? No you don't. Your vet doesn't know to look for that either. If your vet knew that stuff, she would also know good farriery from bad . . . you wouldn't be here complaining that she referred you to a hack.


YES, I DO have all of those radiographs. I am not an idiot and this is not my first go on this ride. I have been requesting radiographs of this horses' feet EVERY 4 MONTHS for the last 2 or three years.

The shots directly after the new guy did her the first time were impressively good. We all went wow, including the shoer. Can't imagine what the films look like now, but I bet we'll take those shots on Wednesday.

Do you have anything intelligent to add?

[Rick Burten]

Thank you, Rick... but, can you please enlighten me then to what term you would use to describe the heels in the pic that Tom has marked?

Jammed due to wall length imbalance, either conformation or trim induced, or both.

Cuz I really thought these heels fit into both of the articles you posted. What criteria are they not meeting for the condition?
There is no evidence that they are disunited.

It's been a LONG weekend so please excuse me if I'm missing something here :winkgrin: Glad you made it home okay.

If its forgiveness you seek, then a 'man of the cloth', rather than a 'man of the forge' is who you seek. :D Besides, there is nothing to forgive.

Thanks, it was an easy trip and I caught up on some of the sleep I missed during the clinic. :)

ps: The beef jerky was great. I shared it with no one, not even my 'very special to me', dogs. :)

[Tom Bloomer]

It's been a LONG weekend so please excuse me if I'm missing something here :winkgrin:What you missed was breakfast on friday. Since I couldn't make the seminar I went over on Friday morning for breakfast with Rick and other folks what came in early from out of town.

[Patty Lynch]

Yeah, well I guess my invitation got lost :( I missed ya though.

[Rick Burten]

YES, I have been requesting radiographs of this horses' feet EVERY 4 MONTHS for the last 2 or three years.

Why?

The shots directly after the new guy did her the first time were impressively good. We all went wow, including the shoer. Can't imagine what the films look like now, but I bet we'll take those shots on Wednesday.

Hope you'll post them.

Do you have anything intelligent to add?

I can't and won't speak for bro. Bloomer, but does DUH work for you?

[riana]

Why?


Because having a film to point to and say "the vet wants the toes brought back to HERE" was very, very helpful with the old farrier. Remember how I said I had to harp on him to keep the toes short? I wasn't kidding. He listened to the vets and the mark on the films much better than if I just asked if we could shorten the toes.

Hope you'll post them.

Wish I could. Old films were actual film, and the farrier kept them. Only films I have from the new vet are the hocks, as their burner was broken or something when I went back to deal with the feet.

If we shoot new rads on Wednesday, I'll do my best to get copies.

[Patty Lynch]

Jammed due to wall length imbalance, either conformation or trim induced, or both.


There is no evidence that they are disunited.

Ok, what evidence are we looking for? A cleft? There is not cleft in the first pic on this page http://www.equipodiatry.com/shrheel.htm :confused:


I am glad you liked the jerky. Only truly special people get my jerky ;) I appreciate you sharing your knowledge and being there to help educate. I think Dr. O'Grady ate most of Pat's jerky :lol::lol: You were smart to hide yours.

[Tom Bloomer]

There is no evidence that they are disunited.So you are saying that these heels are . . . still reaching across the aisle. Whereas in a truly "sheared" heel, the aisleway, er digital cushion, is wrent along party lines, damaged, pulled apart by special interest rather than united for the common good. Which heel is the democrat and which is the republican? Will the jamb turn into a shear if there is a farriery philibuster? Should farriers from Ohio and Florida vote twice?

[Patty Lynch]

So you are saying that these heels are . . . still reaching across the aisle. Whereas in a truly "sheared" heel, the aisleway, er digital cushion, is wrent along party lines, damaged, pulled apart by special interest rather than united for the common good. Which heel is the democrat and which is the republican? Will the jamb turn into a shear if there is a farriery philibuster? Should farriers from Ohio and Florida vote twice?


THAT was GOOD, Tom :lol::lol:

[Rick Burten]

So you are saying that these heels are . . . still reaching across the aisle.

Yes....


Whereas in a truly "sheared" heel, the aisleway, er digital cushion, is wrent along party lines, damaged, pulled apart by special interest rather than united for the common good.

Indeed....

Which heel is the democrat and which is the republican?

What a silly question! Why the one on the left is the democrat and the one on the right is the republican. :D

Will the jamb turn into a shear if there is a farriery philibuster?

That is a distinct possibility.

Should farriers from Ohio and Florida vote twice?

Absolutely not!! Only farriers from the democratic republic of Chicago are afforded that ability. Even the deceased ones.

[little D]

first I am a farrier. I have been a farrier since 1995 this has been my primary source of income along with training. The first thing I would have to say is no one should comment because if you were not the farrier doing the work so that you were feeling the hoof, the sole , the horse and its reactions how it stands and walks, well you get the picture . then you have no way of determining right or wrong. this farrier may have done the best that he or she could for what they had to work with.

[Rick Burten]

The first thing I would have to say is no one should comment because if you were not the farrier doing the work so that you were feeling the hoof, the sole , the horse and its reactions how it stands and walks, well you get the picture . then you have no way of determining right or wrong.

ummmmmmm, there are some things that are as obvious as a big wart on your nose on which one can indeed comment . By commenting on said conditions, one is not necessarily passing judgment as to the quality of the work or the knowledge, skill and ability of the hoof care provider because as you correctly noted, we weren't there and we don't know what he started with.

Or do you not see some of the issues that are apparent to me, and evidently, others too?


this farrier may have done the best that he or she could for what they had to work with.

Or not........

[little D]

yes I certainly do. But I also know that if I am not doing the work then I dont know what problems this farrier may have incurred. everything from the terrain to what the horse is being used for and the owners pocket book and everything in between can determine what is done.

[riana]

yes I certainly do. But I also know that if I am not doing the work then I dont know what problems this farrier may have incurred. everything from the terrain to what the horse is being used for and the owners pocket book and everything in between can determine what is done.

The pocket book is open (I just want my horse to be SOUND) and the horse has not been used at all since she was shod. She is too body-sore to ride. This soreness is distinctly different than anything I've seen before in her and has developed following this last shoe job.

Former farrier was about $200 every 5 weeks, unless we were using equithane, then it was closer to $300. New farrier was $125 or $150, plus the diesel to haul down to the clinic and the ulcergard for the horse.

I don't know how much the farrier I'm seeing on Wednesday is. If he can make my horse comfortable, it doesn't really matter. He's about an hour south of me, so diesel plus ulcergard plus shoeing fees plus vet exam.

[Tom Bloomer]

Do you have anything intelligent to add?

What I want to find is someone who can shoe this horse the way she needs to be done with no harping.
You don't KNOW the way she needs to be done.

My vet really likes this shoer, and she's really very, very bright...but I'm really getting concerned about my horse's feet.
Neither does your vet. Sorry, but you've put too much evidence out here that convinces me that you think the vet should be telling the farrier how to shoe horses. Vets aren't QUALIFIED to do that. If you feel ANY nonfarrier is better qualified to decide how to shoe your horse than the person you are paying for farrier service, then you do not believe your farrier is qualified to do the work PERIOD. That is the ugly truth.

Until you find a farrier that you KNOW is qualified on their own merit, their own educational background and expertise, you are just paying for contract labor and hoping another layperson (in farriery, veterinarians are laypeople) can help you supervise. Makes about as much sense as having your family practice medical doctor supervise/instruct your dentist or you car mechanic. Even if your MD is very bright, he ain't a dentist and he ain't a mechanic. Just because he likes a particular dentist or mechanic does not mean that the person your MD likes is qualified. It is your teeth and your car. Have you ever felt the need to tell your dentist or your mechanic how to do their jobs? Ever felt you should provide them with instructions from a professional in a different field because they weren't doing it "right?"

Until you can find a farrier that can satisfy you he or she knows more about farriery and is more capable in the PROFESSION than your vet (who is not a professional farrier), you are going to be stuck with your current situation. You don't have to like what I have to say. But it is intelligent and it is the truth.

[Tom Bloomer]

But I also know that if I am not doing the work then I dont know what problems this farrier may have incurred.It doesn't matter. As long as the owner feels it is necissary for another non-farrier to instruct or direct the work of the farrier, the owner OBVIOUSLY does not feel the farrier is qualified.

Would you hire someone to do the work of a qualified professional when you felt they were not a qualified and needed guidance and instruction from someone who is also not a qualified professional in that same field? Is farriery contract labor?

[riana]

And what do YOU think when the toes get long and the horse goes lame? What do YOU think when the toes get backed up and the horse goes sound?

We played that game a few times. Nothing else changed. It was readily apparent to anyone who looked at the horse--professional or not. The farrier would rather have a lame horse with a "perfect" foot than a sound horse with toes too short.

I would LOVE to have a farrier that was good enough to pay attention to what the horse was telling him. Haven't found that yet. The guy I was using is one of two guys that are widely known as "the best" and usually recommended for corrective work. I called the other a couple days ago, and he was not taking new clients.

It must be really, really nice to live in an area that has a lot of farriers that do excellent work and are good at corrective farriery. I don't like in an area like that. The last time I trusted a farrier to do good work (and he was highly recommended by several people, including the vet school) he screwed up my horse so bad that I had to put him down. Now I speak up when I see something wrong. *I* have to be my horse's strongest advocate.

[Tom Bloomer]

Ok, what evidence are we looking for? A cleft? There is not cleft in the first pic on this page http://www.equipodiatry.com/shrheel.htm :confused:
That horse might be an uptight conservative republican or an undecided swing voter.

[Rick Burten]

That horse might be an uptight conservative republican or an undecided swing voter.
Hmm, can you tell a swing voter because s/he swishes his/her tail?

[Pippigirl]

yes I certainly do. But I also know that if I am not doing the work then I dont know what problems this farrier may have incurred. everything from the terrain to what the horse is being used for and the owners pocket book and everything in between can determine what is done.

I'm not sure what conditions the farrier was facing to warrent what's going on with the right hind heels (in addition to the left hind). I don't think the owner's pocket book should dictate how balanced the trim should be.

[Blinkers On]

It's not going to be easy finding a farrier that fits the bill. I know I have be frustrated on occasion with the job that was done when my sometimes difficult but very good farrier is had to find. Loves to fish way too often.

I might not be a farrier or a blacksmith, but I know what I don't want to see after a shoeing job and definitely don't want to see less than 2 weeks after a job was done. I am the customer. I know what I do and don't want a foot to look like at the end of a shoeing and at the end of that shoeing job just before they are re-done again. And had better not have a foot that looks like this horse's (sorry OP) even after 4 weeks!

I am the cold hard cash paying customer. And my cash won't be there for long if I remain unhappy with the work. The farrier is not always right, as shown in these pictures. When it comes to having 25-30 horses in my care going to the farrier's care. We'd best be on the same page or it will be 30 less horses for you to shoe monthly.. that's quite a bit of cash.

I'm not an expert in corrective shoeing, but years and years of being educated and employed in various facets of the horse industry have definitely left a clear image of how I want a healthy foot to look. When it comes to something I don't know enough about, I get educated from some very good people. I am not too shy to ask stupid questions.

The OP is right, And I sincerely hope you find someone who can do the job you are looking for!

[BornToRide]

I'm not sure what conditions the farrier was facing to warrent what's going on with the right hind heels (in addition to the left hind). I don't think the owner's pocket book should dictate how balanced the trim should be.
Yeah, I'd say. Not trimming correctly does harm to the horse, no matter at what rate. That should not happen, ever! Great, now I'm even more puzzled at this kinda logic.........:confused::lol:

[matryoshka]

Riana, shots of the legs from the front and the rear might help, in addition to a conformation shot. Maybe it is just me, but hind foot balance is easier to see when the horse is weighting the foot. No, it isn't just me...I learned that from Esco Buff. Good job taking the pics, BTW.

Does anybody else think the shoe isn't flat on the LH heel shot? It's a good photo, and the medial heel looks higher than the lateral heel. If so, it could be contributing to the problems with that foot.

[riana]

The hind foot shots that I know are weighted are the medials. I had to have her pick up the opposite hind to get those.

The horse was really, really reluctant to actually step down on the left hind. She just wanted to rest it. I was taking the pictures by myself, so I just did lots of tugging on her tail and snapping as quick as I could. I'll see if I have any other left hind heels shots...this isn't a great shot, but definitely shows the back of the left hind, with weight on it: http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2938723330104161560ACQGZH

I did get this picture that night that shows her "elephant on a drum" stance pretty well: http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2364508630104161560urwPbI

I was planning on retaking all of the foot pictures Tuesday night. I'll try to get some more of the horse.

[matryoshka]

Thanks Riana. When you are shooting new pics, would you mind getting more of the hind leg in the view? She looks like she's standing base narrow, and it would be good to see the hock and maybe even her entire hindquarters.

For all that you are getting put through the wringer here, you are doing the right thing by your horse in asking questions and getting more opinions. Hopefully you can sift through the useful (and less useful) stuff provided in this thread.

[Tom Bloomer]

The guy I was using is one of two guys that are widely known as "the best" and usually recommended for corrective work.
Still stuck on the "recommended" and "widely known" thing? Still basing your decision on other people's opinions. If your horse didn't have a problem, YOU would be one of the people making a favorable recommendation. If you know what you are looking for, then find somebody that says they can do it and can show you examples of similar horses they are successful with. Then go look at their work and see for yourself if they are what they say they are. THEN make an appointment.

Don't be surprised if you find somebody who sets shoes back is not popular or respected by mainstream farriers and vets. The "short lever principle" of shoeing is NOT widely accepted in the farrier industry. You are more likely to see this practice done by the "infamous" than the famous.

You are looking for a heretic - someone swimming aginst the tide. The "perimeter fit" for all horses regardless of biomechanical function is sacrosanct in the mainstream of farriery. Like Social Security, it is the "third rail" nobody wants to touch because of fear of being thought of by your peers as "different."

[Rick Burten]

I'm not an expert in corrective shoeing,

IMNTBCHO, neither is anyone, and I do mean anyone, else. Why? Because I don't believe that such a critter(corrective shoeing/trimming) exists.

That said, while there is indeed a 'field' of Therapeutic trimming/shoeing, there are, in the end, only two ways to trim/shoe horses. Correctly or incorrectly. Never Correctively. Perhaps some will ken the subtleties of the difference.

[riana]

Actually, Tom, I guess I did do that when I hired the former farrier. I saw some nice short, balanced feet at the barn, and asked who the shoer was. I saw a couple more horses I liked elsewhere, and found out it was the same guy. What I didn't know until far later is that shoer would agressively bring the breakover back for a period of time--perhaps 2-3 shoeings--and then allow the toes to get long again and start fitting the shoe full to the toe. He doesn't see a short foot as a long-term thing.

I have *never* seen a shoer here bring that breakover back and shorten the toe without some pushing from a vet or owner. I board at a large barn, and we have probably a dozen farriers that regularly come out, if not more. Whenever I see someone new, I'll go take a look. Haven't ever seen anything worth writing home about. Not sure how I'm supposed to find a farrier that keeps the breakover back when there isn't one around here that does that--at least not without some pushing.

[Blinkers On]

IMNTBCHO, neither is anyone, and I do mean anyone, else. Why? Because I don't believe that such a critter(corrective shoeing/trimming) exists.

That said, while there is indeed a 'field' of Therapeutic trimming/shoeing, there are, in the end, only two ways to trim/shoe horses. Correctly or incorrectly. Never Correctively. Perhaps some will ken the subtleties of the difference.



Well you are entitled to your opinion, but these feet look like they need some correcting:yes:

[BornToRide]

The so called "correcting" actually needs to come from the horse, with the support of correct balanced trimming, proper diet and exercise.

Often farriers make the hoof cosmetically look better, by rasping flares and toes down, but the internal structures are still off and it only thins hoofwalls.

In many cases the horse needs to be allowed to grow in a new healthy and well-connected hoof. No amount of creative therapeutic trimming and shoeing can achieve this and is often the case why it fails. You cannot just take the hoof and fix it like a piece of equipment because it is attached to the horse and what goes on with the horse has direct influence over its hoof health also.

The more hoof "fixing" is applied, the worse things usually become.

[Rick Burten]

Often farriers make the hoof cosmetically look better, by rasping flares and toes down, but the internal structures are still off and it only thins hoofwalls.

Mushroom fertilizer!

In many cases the horse needs to be allowed to grow in a new healthy and well-connected hoof. No amount of creative therapeutic trimming and shoeing can achieve this and is often the case why it fails.

More mushroom fertilizer! How do you suppose said horse is going to grow a new healthy and well-connected hoof if the distortions, internal and external are not correctly addressed.

Now, I challenge you to present case studies where therapeutic trimming/shoeing , when correctly instituted, routinely or not so routinely, fails.

You cannot just take the hoof and fix it like a piece of equipment because it is attached to the horse
Were I given to speaking in generalities, I would reply, "Sure you can. Demonstrably so"

and what goes on with the horse has direct influence over its hoof health also.

According to my Guide for Replying to Internet Foolishness, this is where I am supposed to insert, DUH!!!

The more hoof "fixing" is applied, the worse things usually become.

Even more mushroom fertilizer. Or is it that when Your Vauntedness applies her brand of barefoot trimming mysticism, you are not doing any "hoof fixing"? (hopefully there is no sarchasm*(sic) between us).


*"Sarchasm": "the gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the recipient who doesn't get it ..."

[Blinkers On]

So Hoofy, correct me (I hope) if I am wrong. Those feet look ok to you and there is no "correction" that could create a better trim or shoeing job in this case? I've had blacksmiths do a whole lot with a whole lot less foot.
The job is appalling! Would you be proud to call that your own?

[JHUshoer20]

So Hoofy, correct me (I hope) if I am wrong. Those feet look ok to you and there is no "correction" that could create a better trim or shoeing job in this case? I've had blacksmiths do a whole lot with a whole lot less foot.
The job is appalling! Would you be proud to call that your own?
Rick will answer soon but just out of curiosity what exactly do you find so appalling?
George

[Rick Burten]

So Hoofy, correct me (I hope) if I am wrong. Those feet look ok to you and there is no "correction" that could create a better trim or shoeing job in this case?

Never said one way or the other whether these feet look OK to me. But you are correct that there is no correction that could create a better trim or shoeing job. Rather, there are ways to correctly trim and shoe this horse that would, from my unique POV, better address the issues I see with these feet.

I've had blacksmiths do a whole lot with a whole lot less foot.

Really? In my experience it has always been a farrier who is best able to do that of which you speak. However, if I needed some hand wrought hinges, or door handles or other black iron nicknacks, I would go to a reputable blacksmith rather than to a farrier to get the work I needed correctly done.

The job is appalling!

Truly? Without knowing all the exigent circumstances, that is a rather audacious statement for you to make. Are you routinely prone to such excesses?

Would you be proud to call that your own?

It depends.

[Blinkers On]

Honestly, this
Would you be proud to call that your own?

"It depends."
answers all of my questions. Why you'd defend the job, or be as adamant about the job not being absolutely appalling! I could do a better job. Of course cadaver legs aren't living, but what's a nail through the quick once in a while as opposed to some clown crippling your horse. Money well saved.

I am not prone to over reacting or making strong statements. If I walked into the barn and saw a job like this even the day after the job was done. I'd have someone a blacksmith a farrier, a cow trimmer,anyone else in there immediately. It's not acceptable!
I wouldn't pay the guy a red cent.

There wouldn't be a need for what I refer to as corrective shoeing IF the job had been done well to begin with.
Seriously I live and breath horse racing the land of the long toe and the low heel. I of all people ought not to find anything wrong with this, and yet it is blatant that it makes me cringe. Of course I don't subscribe to the long heel thing and LOVE a natural balanced foot.. this is not something evidence in these pictures

[Blinkers On]

Rick will answer soon but just out of curiosity what exactly do you find so appalling?
George

Did you look at the pictures?
the foot is unbalanced. The toe is far too long. The heel needs to be drawn back The shoe doesn't fit the foot.. any of them. It's been a mere ten days and the horse look more than ready to be reset or re shod.
The long toe/low heel thing contributes to such a wide variety of lamenesses. Soft tissue, fracture and so on and so on

[JHUshoer20]

Did you look at the pictures?
the foot is unbalanced. The toe is far too long. The heel needs to be drawn back The shoe doesn't fit the foot.. any of them. It's been a mere ten days and the horse look more than ready to be reset or re shod.
The long toe/low heel thing contributes to such a wide variety of lamenesses. Soft tissue, fracture and so on and so on
And what qualifies you to judge? Have you shod many horses? And before you throw your racetrack resume around I'll mention en passant that yours truly has spent some time on the backside as well. Yes I looked at some of the photos and see no reason for you to be having such a hissy fit.

What exactly do you find so appalling?
George

[Blinkers On]

IF this were my horse. what qualifies me to judge is I'm the owner. I'm not a little girl hoping that the magic guy comes by and gives my pretty pony a pedicure. I am a paying client who is dissatisfied with how the horse's feet look. As the paying customer it needs to be fixed. You've heard the old saying "The client is always right.." I am.
And the same goes for the OP. She is unsatisfied with the job that's been done. Can't blame her! And as such the feet need to be done correctly. She is the customer and a job needs to be done to her satisfaction. She is not happy. Fix it.

Why would I bother to throw any resume of any sort around on a forum? That seems foolish. And frankly I don't need to do so. I know who I am, what I've done, and what I like. And as such my likes as the customer needs to come very very high on the list of things for someone I employ. I don't jump through hoops for people I do business with. As the customer, if they want to retain my business... enter my hoops. And in all honesty if a job is done well, no hoops, no BS. I should NEVER have to show a farrier his work and point out the things I dislike. I prefer people who do superior work without a babysitter. Not enough time in the day to babysit.

[matryoshka]

George, I do see a problem with the way the horse is standing in the last two pics posted. I also think there is a problem when the owner practically has to force a horse to weight a foot. The foot hurts. Something is wrong. That's why the owner is here asking questions. I don't think we can solve that here, but perhaps the owner can learn something that would be helpful.

It could be a simple as a hind-foot abscess. It could be close nails. We won't be able to tell here, but perhaps you experience farriers could offer her some advice for how to get to the bottom of the problem.

[Rick Burten]

Honestly, this
Would you be proud to call that your own?

"It depends."
answers all of my questions. Why you'd defend the job, or be as adamant about the job not being absolutely appalling!

Perhaps because its not? What precisely is your professional expertise that enables you to posit yourself as an authority on the subject?

I could do a better job.

Really? Prove it.

Of course cadaver legs aren't living,
You understate the obvious oh so well.

but what's a nail through the quick once in a while as opposed to some clown crippling your horse.

My argument exactly. why let some alleged hoof care provider(ie: a barefoot trimmer, especially one with a BUAtista mentality) who cannot provide for all the horse's hoof care needs regardless of exigency, cripple your horse?

I am not prone to over reacting or making strong statements.

Really? Well ya' coulda' fooled me..........LOL!

If I walked into the barn and saw a job like this even the day after the job was done. I'd have someone a blacksmith a farrier, a cow trimmer,anyone else in there immediately. It's not acceptable!

Did someone die and you got promoted to ultimate arbiter or acceptable or not acceptable?
Why wasn't I notified? Who elevated you to that exalted position? Based on what?

I wouldn't pay the guy a red cent.

Then you would be guilty of theft of services which, depending on the amount of money involved, could well rise to a felony level. I'd like nothing better than to have someone like you do that (not pay)to me. I think you'd look fetching in stainless steel linked bracelets, and some time behind bars and/or a stiff fine, might just get your attention. So, Bring It!

There wouldn't be a need for what I refer to as corrective shoeing IF the job had been done well to begin with.

At this point in time, you have no real way of knowing whether or not the job was done correctly or not. What you do have is a biased opinion based on incomplete evidence.

Seriously I live and breath horse racing the land of the long toe and the low heel. I of all people ought not to find anything wrong with this, and yet it is blatant that it makes me cringe.

Wo cares? You have yet to establish your credibility when it comes to passing such judgements. And, living and breathing horse racing is not necessarily a qualifier. After all, if you're mucking stalls, you may have become addlepated from inhaling too much ammonia, urea and other chemical deritaves so often found in and around the race track and stables.

Of course I don't subscribe to the long heel thing and LOVE a natural balanced foot.. this is not something evidence in these pictures

Your 'natural balanced foot" may be someone/everyone else's natural un-balanced foot" or vice versa. Especially since you have yet to define what that condition is in your view.

[JHUshoer20]

IF this were my horse. what qualifies me to judge is I'm the owner. I'm not a little girl hoping that the magic guy comes by and gives my pretty pony a pedicure. I am a paying client who is dissatisfied with how the horse's feet look. As the paying customer it needs to be fixed. You've heard the old saying "The client is always right.." I am.
And the same goes for the OP. She is unsatisfied with the job that's been done. Can't blame her! And as such the feet need to be done correctly. She is the customer and a job needs to be done to her satisfaction. She is not happy. Fix it.

Why would I bother to throw any resume of any sort around on a forum? That seems foolish. And frankly I don't need to do so. I know who I am, what I've done, and what I like. And as such my likes as the customer needs to come very very high on the list of things for someone I employ. I don't jump through hoops for people I do business with. As the customer, if they want to retain my business... enter my hoops. And in all honesty if a job is done well, no hoops, no BS. I should NEVER have to show a farrier his work and point out the things I dislike. I prefer people who do superior work without a babysitter. Not enough time in the day to babysit.
Very nice for consumer advocacy. Problem is this ain't Burger King. You don't get it your way you get it the horseshoers way. Now what do you find so appalling and objectionable that you would have done differently? As a knowledgable horse person you've failed to convince me with youre vagueness.

Hey Matryoshka,
How can you tell lameness from a still photo?
George

[riana]

How in the hell did this thread turn into such a pissing match? :confused:

Here are the facts and what I've seen:

This horse did not have medial-lateral imbalance when the new guy started on her. I don't think anyone would say the horse does not have medial-lateral imbalance now.

This horse did not have underrun heels behind when the new guy started on her. They look underrun to me now.

This horse was not standing like an elephant on a barrel when then new guy started on her. She is now.

This horse's hind shoes are sliding off her feet. The old farrier did not have that problem.

This horse beat the hell out of the inside of her hind legs in turnout (particularly the inside of the left hind, which makes sense, since the right hind shoe is sliding left and is extending about a half inch past the hoof wall) and came in ridiculously body sore. This did not happen with the old farrier.

This horse was in a 3 deg wedge pad for a couple years. The new guy was able to get her out of that. Plus one for the new guy.

I am Not Happy that my horse is too sore to ride or that her hind shoes are sliding right off her damned feet less than two weeks after being shod. I can't imagine ANYONE would be pleased with this work or these problems.

I get that there's some unspoken rule that farrier's never criticize each other or something, but I imagine MOST farriers want the horse to be BETTER or at least THE SAME 10 days following shoeing. Not worse. Not so much worse the horse can't even be ridden. I have very simple needs: I want my horse to be sound. This farrier is not making my horse sound. He is making her lame.

Also, can someone please explain to me the therapeutic benefit of having the heels of the shoe on top of the frog?

[BornToRide]

Or simply put - what is more important? The horse's well being or some professionals ego??!! If you make a mistake, be prepared to be questioned about it if you can't admit to it yourself!

Also, can someone please explain to me the therapeutic benefit of having the heels of the shoe on top of the frog?None - it only interferes with the frog's shock absorbing function.

[matryoshka]

Riana, report the off topic posts to the mods. They tried to crack down on this sort of off-topic argument in the past, but we've apparently regressed.

It does sound like you need to change farriers. What you describe is unaccaptable. Have you contacted the farrier and expressed your concerns (sorry if you already said you did and I missed it)? I guess you have to ask yourself if you want to give the farrier a chance to correct his error or move on to somebody else.

[riana]

I have not contacted the farrier or the vet that I have been using for my horse. I've been very torn on whether or not I should, and if I do, when.

The reason I've not contacted the farrier is because I want my horse fixed. I don't want to dick around with partial fixes or no fixes while giving this guy a chance to make things right. I think these problems after only 10 weeks (looked up the dates--the horse was first done at the end of July) with this new guy really means that this shoer is just not the right fit for my horse. I also find it horribly concerning that he recognized the fact the horse has/is developing sheared heels and did NOTHING to address the issue. And, honestly, this thread demonstrates very well why I don't want to go back to him or really even talk to him. What would be the point, if the farrier mentality is "my way or the highway"? Farriers apparently think owners are idiots and have no right to speak up about problems they're seeing in their horse. (And I DID ask if we could keep the shoes off the frogs and he said "I don't think we can do that." Perhaps I should have known then that this was not the farrier for me.)

As for the vet, I think I may send her an email after the horse is reshod. Just a simple "The shoe job was not working for my horse, here's why (link to some pictures) and here's what we're doing to address the issue (more pictures.)" I really do like HER as a vet and don't want to burn any bridges there.

[Moderator 1]

Please remain focused on the OP and not each other. You're welcome to disagree with statements made and provide a conflicting opinion, but keep it focused on helping the OP and her horse.

Thanks,
Mod 1

[matryoshka]

Riana, I wish you the best of luck in finding a good farrier to help your horse. Did you say you are checking out a new farrier on Wednesday? If so, would you mind keeping us posted about how it goes? Or PM me, if you don't want to post to this thread?

[Blinkers On]

Riana, sounds like you are making good decisions for your horse! May the next guy do the job you are looking for and your horse needs! Good for you!
And you do have a good eye!

[riana]

I'd planned on getting some new pictures of the feet and the horse today, but my little dog had surgery and needs to be at home and quiet...so no pictures today.

I do hope to get some shots tomorrow, before my horse goes to see the new farrier (and a new vet, too) and I'll try to get pictures following getting reshod as well.

[BornToRide]

Best wishes for your dog!

[Blinkers On]

No kidding, I hope your dog is ok!! What was the surgery for??

[riana]

About two weeks ago, we found a tumor. Really looked and felt like a lipoma. Turns out it was a mast cell tumor. Little Dog had surgery to remove it about 10 days ago. A week ago, we got the news that we did not get clean margins. We had to treat with steroids for a week before trying again.

Now my poor dog has a 6" incision :( The tumor was only the size of a small marble. I just hope we got it all this time.

[Blinkers On]

Oh man, more than one surgery for this???
Poor baby! They do seem to make a HUGE incision for small cysts.
Did they use internal sutures and glue on the incision or what? Did you get antibiotics for it? What was the pain med given post op??

[riana]

This is the first time my vet has EVER gotten dirty margins...just bad luck. I seem to have a lot of that :( If we'd had clean margins, it would have just been surgery 10 days ago. Because the margins were dirty, we had to remove more tissue today. Mast cell cancer is really pretty aggressive and can have a pretty poor prognosis. My dog's tumor was grade 2, which is ~50% 5 year survival rate, depending on where you look. Getting dirty margins was very disappointing.

There are internal disolvable sutures with staples on the outside. There are also some sutures to relieve tension on the staples. She's on morphine for pain relief and ace for sedation. We're also keeping her on prednisone until the pathology comes back.

[Blinkers On]

Aw man! You got better drugs than we did!
We get labs back tomorrow. I am kind of scared. I will for ever cherish every second more that I have with my boy! This has made me so raw and so know what it would feel like to miss him in my life. Selfishly, I want another 5 years plus. But that is really dreaming!

[riana]

Today was really interesting.

I went to the barn early so I could take some pictures of my horse's feet. We are two weeks out from when she was done last. I found this:

Right Hind (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2998227990104161560VIFfun) and the other side (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2384127670104161560kftWDh). She did not have those tears on Monday.

Here are all the other views from this AM:

Left Front:

Lateral (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2753189880104161560UJetOZ)
Medial (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2035041240104161560xbQses)
Solar (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2383761620104161560SmSMQr)
Heels (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2503968950104161560lNLPBU)
Heels Again (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2653326690104161560VoYubX)

Left Hind:

Lateral (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2429972240104161560DCviLf)
Medial (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2169281730104161560nlHpvU)
Solar (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2226296640104161560TUtBqL)
Heels (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2204341690104161560IekHRq)

Right Hind:

Lateral (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2801976160104161560hJIpzt)
Medial (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2083972330104161560ROwmQh)
Solar (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2609541960104161560BtMOeP)
Heels (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2935712710104161560USvHCu)
Heels, Again (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2885372950104161560IjMJNe)

Right Front:

Lateral (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2637206540104161560poZocT)
Medial (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2274291990104161560TojYcb)
Solar (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2694235990104161560eVSebK)
Heels (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2077035860104161560JiTVOG)
Heels, Again (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2601565000104161560VcsrMm)

Here are some shots of her just standing around: Front feet (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2298772160104161560frvoPX), Hinds (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2815015100104161560SlQvbC), body shot (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2672013320104161560MMknKN), and another (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2855324120104161560DQdGqK).

We drove down to where the farrier is, and my damned horse kicked me when she was coming off the trailer. She was PISSED OFF.

The farrier thought she had crappy feet and that she did not have enough wall for nail on shoes. So he glued on and just used a couple nails where he could.

We got through shoeing one front and trimming another front and the horse let out a big sigh, dropped her head, and started licking and chewing. By the time we were done, she was so relaxed she looked sedated, and the farrier even asked if we'd drugged her. She walked off nice and forward (hadn't realized she'd lost that till it came back) and did not try to kill me when we got home. Her WHOLE demeanor changed nearly instantly when we reshod her. I think that's a really, really good sign. :)

Here are her sneakers (I feel like I should add a Nike swoosh)...they're Eponas. She also has Equi-Pak on all four.

Left Front:

Lateral (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2177159150104161560uzygKy)
Medial (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2209622000104161560jGkSOq)
Solar (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2895029960104161560UGzXCQ)
Heels (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2178834670104161560iXzjCf)
Heels, Again (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2932324700104161560rREpNO)

Left Hind:

Lateral (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2943727490104161560nXYdQL)
Medial (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2134896090104161560UFYWdl)
Solar (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2062593500104161560aqSepp)
Heels (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2343770190104161560fprGzS)
Heels, again (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2585509420104161560ZnpEfl)

Right Hind:

Lateral (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2381298190104161560bbwNru)
Medial (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2693970240104161560uFJopQ)
Solar (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2676731090104161560AGJATr)
Heels (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2663936040104161560pXfSUE)
Heels, again (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2406099120104161560lPPpSl)

Right Front:

Lateral (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2557877830104161560NNfJsV)
Medial (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2418541390104161560thgKQf)
Solar (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2030264940104161560uebBkz)
Heels (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2204267730104161560ipOwsi)
Heels, again (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2653041380104161560nILwVJ)

And here are a couple more of her: body shot (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2511058170104161560oxRBME), hind end (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2842643950104161560fRduFq), and front feets (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2431360200104161560rybMfh).

My horse is MUCH happier on these feet. I am happy that my horse is happy :)

(I hope all those links work. That was a lot of cutting and pasting.)

[BornToRide]

I still see some minor imbalances and think her toes are still too long, but she's obviously feeling better in the soft shoes and the heels look better overall, especially that right front.

I am glad she's feeling better :)

[Patty Lynch]

I think it's interesting that the heels were addressed on all 4 but not the toe. In fact, looking at the pics side by side, very little toe was removed/backed up at all. BUT!! I will say that I think horses with longer pasterns require a longer toe. In some of the photos, the after body shot imparticular, it looks like she does have long pasterns. Does she? How tall is she? Photographs can be hard sometimes though. Glue-on packages can be hard to eval too.

Anyway, it's an improvement for sure just that she is more comfortable :yes: And THAT says it all.

P.S. SHE IS ADORABLE :yes: LOVE her.

[riana]

Any other input?

I am particularly interested in these (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2998227990104161560VIFfun) cracks (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2384127670104161560kftWDh) in the right hind, and what that would be called and what causes that to happen. Is this a Bad Thing? I've never had a horse develop anything like this before.

[Patty Lynch]

Do they go all the way to the horn? The "cracks" look like cracked bulb skin covering the heels.

[riana]

Patty, it looks like we posted at the same time!

To answer some of your questions: she is 16.1. I dont know if she really has longer pasterns...she's my only horse, so it's hard to compare and really say one way or the other for me.

She does have itty bitty feets--she's wearing an aught wide in front and I think a narrow one behind. Maybe that had a role in how the farrier did her?

I am not going to worry about the toes until the horse tell me it's not okay with her. She's very expressive when she's uncomfortable ;)

I have no idea about the cracks and how far they go. Now they're all covered up with glue, so I guess we'll never know? It was just weird how they were not there on Mon and then they were there on Wednes.

[BornToRide]

I will say that I think horses with longer pasterns require a longer toe.
I disagree - it potentially delays breakover, which can make a horse stumble more and create toe loading as well - not good. The 1/2 - 3/4 inch growth just under the coronet band dictates what the actual dorsal hoofwall angle of a hoof should be like and determines the actual , natural toe length of a hoof. The tricky part is to get it to grow out all the way to the ground without flaring. If it does flare away from P3 below that tighter growth, usually the horse is metabolically affected, if it is not a mechanical flare due to incorrect trimming.

I can see in the before photos that the growth under the coronet band IS indeed tighter. If you hold a straight edge against this, you can see how much further back her toes should be. In her case at least 1/4 inch, if not a bit more on the left front!

And lowering the heels without addressing the toes adequately, will make the toes longer!

I am also not sure about that crack without looking at it in person. Does not seem to make sense being a possible quarter crack. but it could be.

[Patty Lynch]

I disagree - it potentially delays breakover, which can make a horse stumble more and create toe loading as well - not good. The 1/2 - 3/4 inch growth just under the coronet band dictates what the actual dorsal hoofwall angle of a hoof should be like and determines the actual , natural toe length of a hoof. The tricky part is to get it to grow out all the way to the ground without flaring. If it does flare away from P3 below that tighter growth, usually the horse is metabolically affected, if it is not a mechanical flare due to incorrect trimming.

I can see in the before photos that the growth under the coronet band IS indeed tighter. If you hold a straight edge against this, you can see how much further back her toes should be. In her case at least 1/4 inch, if not a bit more on the left front!

And lowering the heels without addressing the toes adequately, will make the toes longer!

I am also not sure about that crack without looking at it in person. Does not seem to make sense being a possible quarter crack. but it could be.

Geez, BTR how many long pasterned horses have YOU PROPERLY shod lately????? Do you take into consideration boney column alignment, EVER?? This horse is not BAREFOOT. I could go on and on about mechanics but it's pointless with you. The breakover is back on this horse... probably where YOU would put it if the horse was BAREFOOT. But if you did that, you might want to get some paper towels. There IS such a thing as a PROPERLY shod horse.... You CANNOT use barefoot thinking with shod horses.

[BornToRide]

Geez Patty Lynch, I rather listen to what the horse's hoof tells me than what some humans try to dictate to it. This horse's front hooves tell me that they should have a steeper dorsal hoofwall angle, regardless of what the pastern or shoulder angle may be like. Heck, they might actually improve once the dorsal hoof wall angle is where it SHOULD be!

This is exactly the reason why so many "fixes" fail - because we ignore what the horse is trying to tell us and let our analytical imagination run wild.

And no, I would never shoe a horse, ever. I boot instead :)

[Patty Lynch]

Any other input?

I am particularly interested in these (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2998227990104161560VIFfun) cracks (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2384127670104161560kftWDh) in the right hind, and what that would be called and what causes that to happen. Is this a Bad Thing? I've never had a horse develop anything like this before.

Upon closer looking it does look like at least one side went into the horn. The cause is improper/impeded movement of the hoof wall and the back part of the foot against the shoe. They should go away and now that the cause is removed, not give her any problems. I shudder when I look at those before shots :lol: The lateral heel on the RH doesn't even make ground contact.

[Patty Lynch]

Geez Patty Lynch, I rather listen to what the horse's hoof tells me than what some humans try to dictate to it. This horse's front hooves tell me that they should have a steeper dorsal hoofwall angle, regardless of what the pastern or shoulder angle may be like. Heck, they might actually improve once the dorsal hoof wall angle is where it SHOULD be!

This is exactly the reason why so many "fixes" fail - because we ignore what the horse is trying to tell us and let our analytical imagination run wild.

And no, I would never shoe a horse, ever. I boot instead :)

Good for you :)

I told ya it was pointless :lol:

[rmh]

I have specific opinions on how I want my horses feet A zealot Iam not. Just what we need is another one from either side on this board. Not talking about you Patty.

[Patty Lynch]

Thanks, rmh :)

[Blinkers On]

Today was really interesting.

I went to the barn early so I could take some pictures of my horse's feet. We are two weeks out from when she was done last. I found this:

Right Hind (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2998227990104161560VIFfun) and the other side (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2384127670104161560kftWDh). She did not have those tears on Monday.




Oh jeeze are you kidding? That's not good... Your horse related to Big Brown by chance?

[riana]

:lol: No, not really.

[Blinkers On]

LOL. count yourself blessed...

[BornToRide]

I have specific opinions on how I want my horses feet A zealot Iam not. Just what we need is another one from either side on this board. Not talking about you Patty.
You are not doing the horse's any favors by ignoring what their hooves tell you and go by some type of human prescribed angle adjustment! This is exactly the reason why so many horses' hooves get screwed up. It is the horse's opinion that should count here, not the humans!

[riana]

Well, I looked very carefully for the cracks in the right hind when I was at the barn this evening and they have all but DISSAPEARED. If you know what you're looking for, you can still sort of see the medial one, but you really have to look. It is much more of a line than a crack. I couldn't find the outside one at all.

I actually rode today (it's been AWHILE, with our lameness issues and then the feet issues) and she felt pretty good. Very forward. Very wiggly. It's really hard for me to tell what's lack of fitness and what may be some lingering discomfort, so we're just going to take it slow, and perhaps have a vet recheck in a week or two. What is interesting is the back pain is absolutely resolved. Yay.

[Patty Lynch]

Well, I looked very carefully for the cracks in the right hind when I was at the barn this evening and they have all but DISSAPEARED

This is because her sole is covered in the Epona Shoe. Now the moisture gradient in her feet have changed and the increased moisture has caused the cracks to essentially swell shut ;)

I'm happy to hear the good report on her back :)

[riana]

This is because her sole is covered in the Epona Shoe. Now the moisture gradient in her feet have changed and the increased moisture has caused the cracks to essentially swell shut ;)

Neato. I'm just happy that they're not still there. It feels like we're moving in the right direction.

I'm happy to hear the good report on her back :)

Me too! She's really no fun to be around when she's ouchy. She's really a ...witch. And I can't blame her--I'm not very nice when I'm in pain, either!

[matryoshka]

The difference in the mare's demeanor is substantial! Wow. I'd say the new guy did what the mare needed done. Good on you to keep searching until you found the answer for your horse.

That heel crack would have been worrisome if you didn't have her reshod right away. I had that happen to a horse that came into the rescue with mechanical founder. In three months I had gotten his feet headed in a better direction, some of the damage had grown out, he had some decently connected wall, and he was ready to go back into shoes for trail riding. The dratted "farrier" didn't have the right size shoe in his kit, so he nailed one that was too short onto those poor underrun heels. Within 3 days, a heel crack appeared and I was called out to pull the shoes. I gave her a pair of boots for turnout until she could find a better farrier. Horse was lame for six weeks after that, and the owner was afraid to try another farrier. So I'm still trimming him. The crack went all the way into the coronet and the hoof is now permanently scarred. :mad:

Bad shoeing can really harm a horse. Good shoeing can make a huge difference for the better, as you've seen. Thanks for sharing the new pics with us!

[riana]

The difference in the mare's demeanor is substantial! Wow. I'd say the new guy did what the mare needed done. Good on you to keep searching until you found the answer for your horse.


:lol: I guess that would be the advantage of a sensitive, expressive horse? I always KNOW when things are not right in her world, and I know right away when something has been fixed.

[matryoshka]

I like riding/owning sensitive horses, too. They let you know when you are doing something wrong. Instant feedback. It's especially good for us ADHD types who need constant input in order to stay focused. :lol:

[riana]

Well, it's been five weeks and my horse was just reshod. I thought I'd update with before and after shots.

This is my horse at five weeks post glue on eponas. She's been worked daily since she got her new shoes--a couple weeks of hand walking to build some base fitness, followed by under saddle work these last 3 weeks. I'm not going to link each individual pic...here's the whole set (http://good-times.webshots.com/album/568814992TKQSYc).

The farrier was pleased with the amount of foot growth. We did shoot radiographs of the fronts--there was some concerning bruising on the sole right along where the front of the coffin bone was on both front feet. Rads looked good.

We reset the fronts, put new eponas on behind. Here's (http://good-times.webshots.com/album/568815889mRzmCX) the feet after being redone.

Overall, I'm pleased, and my horse seems to be quite happy in these shoes and with this trim. Her feet look a LOT more normal to me. I feel like we're moving in the right direction :)

[BornToRide]

Looks better, but I still see too much medio-lateral imbalance, especially on the LH and some on the RF, plus some toes and heels are still too long (RF particularly).

Those frequent red lines in the hoofwall on all hooves are metabolic warning signs BTW! I bet the hooves show regular ripples too, except that they are rasped away. That would be another warning sign to me.

[matryoshka]

Still not keen on the LH heels. It looks like the potential for sheering has not been addressed.

There's a pretty deep line from when the mare had a shoeing job she disagreed with. Glad she's going better.

[riana]

Borntoride, the horse is not metabolic. She's had some crappy shoeing and some feed changes. We tried her barefoot for a few weeks, which was a miseable failure. I think most of the bruising is from that.

matryoshka, I *think* we're improving on the left hind. I really wish I had this shot (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2196863680104161560GRvtWf) from the beginning. I think it would show positive change.

My horse does have some left hind issues. She wore that shoe quite a bit more than the right hind. On the left hind, she'd worn off the "Epona" label and had the interior metal showing. On the right hind, she still had the label and no metal. I did have the vet do a lameness exam, and she passed with flying colors (including flexions) so I think it's just going to be something we deal with.

[BornToRide]

Borntoride, the horse is not metabolic. She's had some crappy shoeing and some feed changes. We tried her barefoot for a few weeks, which was a miseable failure. I think most of the bruising is from that.

The red spots that show up all over the hoofwall are signs that there was inflammation present when that part of the hoofwall grew down from the coronet band. Just going barefoot would not cause such red lines in the hoofwall, or most other barefoot horses would have that too.

The fact that this horse also could not go bare without, I assume, being sore, is another sign to me that she IS already affected to some degree!

[riana]

No, the horse is not in any way metabolic. Sorry, but you're wrong. I'm really not going to go into the whole shebang, but we've been there, done that--and this horse is normal on that front.

In addition the the vet stuff, she's been fed low low low NSC for well over a year--longer than these feet have been around.

She's just had shoeing issues. She's also been hitting herself. Just because she HAS had some inflammitory issues does NOT mean she's got Cushings or is IR or whatever. Not this horse.

[BornToRide]

Well, if you ever wanted to know for sure, all you'd have to do is check the horse's insulin and glucose levels. :) Hope you're right.

[Blinkers On]

For only five weeks and this time of year won't help with speedy growth, it's an improvement! Perfection no, but you are aware of that. Keep aiming for your goal, you are doing a good job. There are things to worry about that have been addressed throughout this thread.
Horses can hit for different reasons from a bad shoeing job, poor conformation, and back or hind end issues. In your case, obviously, I take care of the feet and look for other reasons if the change in shoeing doesn't change the hitting.