Thin Older Horse - I'm Desperate

[Sandy M]

Okay. I have two horses a green 4 year old Araloosa that I board near where I live, and my retiree, a 2nd gen. App/TB cross that is retired. He has arthritic stifles. I tried for about a year to keep him going at least in light dressage (he was 2nd/3rd level, former hunter) and trail with stifle injections, but overall that wasn't all that effective. He is/was sound enough for walking trail rides. I tried for almost another year to find someone interested in half-leasing him for trail riding, so I could keep him near where I live also. I was unsuccessful in that regard, and he now lives on irrigated pasture about a 70-90 min drive away from me. The BOs are VERY conscientious and they are as worried and puzzled as I am about his present condition.

He is quite thin. He's been a "borderline" hard keeper, but not really that difficult to keep in good condition in the past. He presently gets free access grass hay all day and is on irrigated pasture - it's not lush but there is grazing. He is in with three other horses, one of whom is is good buddy, all of whom are elderly, slow eaters like he is. None of them hassle each other. He is brought in with his buddy every day and given alfalfa hay, senior feed, a joint supplement, probiotics, ulcer meds, a fat supplement. I tried that "Cool Stance" stuff that's supposed to put weight on anything, and he wouldn't eat it until we added some apple cider vinegar, and in any event, two sacks worth later - no change. He is "SPCA gonna take you away" thin from the withers back, hips look awful. He's always been a slow eater, but they tell me that sometimes he takes as much as five hours to eat his "extra" feed - that's not difficulty eating, just eating...walking away and standing...eventually coming back to eat some more...etc. His teeth have been checked and he appears to have no problem in that regard. We've done blood work, fecal samples, a belly tap - blood work normal, no excess parasite load, belly tap inconclusive - nothing out of the ordinary. Last time I visited him (10 days ago), he was bright and happy to dive into a nice hulless oats and carrots bran mash and scarf it up - but still thin, thin thin!!!

I'm at my wit's end. I am, at this point, getting ready to take him to a clinic and have - what?? A work up?? Local vet suggested abdominal ultrasound, another local vet said, "What would you expect to find from that?" Uh--I don't KNOW. Talked to clinic - they said, well, yes....since our affiliate suggested ultrasound, we could do that. Send us the blood/fecal/belly tap workup from local vet. Maybe make sure your appointment is on the same day their, gulp, cancer specialist is there, because maybe..... I love him dearly, but even if economic times were NOT has hard as they presently are, I don't have a lot of money to throw at this. I'm paying board on two horses, and I'm creeping up to $500 now on inconclusive tests trying to figure out what's wrong with him. I do not believe that just because a horse is old, it will be thin. I have to think something's wrong, but what to do? He doesn't SEEM to be suffering, but they say sometimes he DOES just stand there and is quite dull, other times bright. He has also walked a visible path in the pasture. Is this because he HATES retirement? But he can really only be lightly trail ridden, and no one is interested in him in that regard. AAARGH!!!!

Oh, he's 22.5 years old. His mother died last summer at age 38. His sire is 26 and still standing at stud. Long-lived stock.

Any thoughts? suggestions?

[El Tovar]

My oldest horse who is now a bucking, strapping, young 31yrs, WAS in that shape despite everything I fed.

I simplified out of necessity. I got Triple Crown Senior into him at the recommended rate. 6 pounds was minimum-added 2oz twice a day of Diamond V yeast Culture-feed store special ordered it for us.

The horse is now on a diet.

It works.

[Sandy M]

Can you tell me whether Triple Crown contains molasses? He is allergic to molasses. Can't feed him anything that contains or the hair on his face/neck falls out and he gets a dermatitis condition. Since he's an Appy - pink skinned in many areas, this is not good.

[El Tovar]

Hi Sandy,

get on the triple crown website, call the 800 number, talk to Robin and tell her about his issues...it is possible it has a TEENINCEY amount of molasses-but it is VERY low starch and sugar so you shouldn't have much to worry about there.

if that is the issue, molasses in the SR formula, ask about the lowstarch adn adding ricebran to that.

The Diamond V yeast is CRITICAL...call your feedstore-get the cheapest form of it-ordered it might take a week-they CAN order it!!! I went through hoops at my local feed mill and now they hvae alot of people buying it...

give em' a call!

[JAD]

You could try adding some ground flax seed meal to his mashes. Start out with 1/4 of a cup and work him up to 2 cups a day. It is VERY high in fat and puts weight on a horse in a hurry. It's also great for their feet, coats and has lots of Omega 3 & 6 so it helps their joints too. My old guy loves it and I don't have to worry about overloading him with grain to bulk him up.

Just a thought..:).

Has the vet checked to see if he is absorbing his protein?

[BuddyRoo]

Sandy...how MUCH senior feed and alfalfa cubes are you giving?

One thing I found is that with the senior feeds, since they're designed to be complete feeds, there's a lot of fiber (via beetpulp)...so in order to get all the CALORIES they need, you have to feed quite a bit daily. And that's far too much to eat in one sitting.

Have you thought about simplifying here and just focusing on calories?

I would make sure you are feeding the recommended amount of the senior feed, and me? I'd add oil...in addition to the alfalfa cubes and I would try to split it into 3-4 meals per day.

Since you board, they may not be willing to help a lot w/ that. If that's the case, then I would try to arrange your schedule so that you can go out there at least one more time a day to give him a meal.

I would be inclined to run a basic CBC and chem panel just to rule out low grade systemic infection, anemia, or other indicator of a problem. I would check a fecal.

But honestly, if all else is checking out okay? He may just need a JOB! My old guy declined much more rapidly after he was "retired". Even hand walking, ponying him off your other horse, backing him in hand to help build up that topline and such...anything. Give him SOME job.

Best wishes.

[Sandy M]

The problem is I cannot go out once a day, nor can I pony him or ride him - he is a 90 minute drive away from where I live and I am a commuter who works in SF all day, get home around 5 PM. The BO's have been very good about giving feeds and supplements I provide, however.

He gets five pounds a day of senior feed, another 3 lbs. of plain alfalfa pellets, plus "all you can eat" grass hay and a large flake of alfalfa hay, in addition to his supplements.

He gets "Cool Calories" which is 90% fat - don't know that flax would give him any more than that. The Cool Calories are what I settled on in place of corn or canola oil, since it is more difficult for the BOs to deal with oil handling, not to mention he is an area that is, at least in summer, hot and oil spoils. I would have a difficult time providing them enough oil since I only see him twice a month.

I will get a comparison of Triple Crown with what he's now receiving. He seems to hate rice bran, so no help there. He manages - as they so talentedly do with things they don't like - to filter it out and to the side of anything you mix it with.

The blood and fecal work have been done - all normal. He's also had a bely tap. He has not been scoped - but we put him on ulcer meds just in case - no change.

[Melyni]

Sandy,
YOu might have to steel yourself for this one. BUt it may not be a feed issue. Occasionally in older horses the GI tract loses it's ability to absorb nutrients, and the horse begins to lose weight no matter how well fed it is.
Your horse just might be going into that territory.
A check of he fecal out put could be done, to see if protein and other nutrients are escaping from the GI tract.
If that really is the case, then there isn't much that you can do, esp if you are on a limited budget.
Hulless oats, a fat source, a probiotic or a pre-biotic such as Diamond V yeast can all be tried but may not be effective.
But I'd definitely try adding either Ration-Plus, Fastrack or Diamond V yeast to his current diet and see if that helps him.
Yours
MW

[Sandy M]

Sandy,
YOu might have to steel yourself for this one. BUt it may not be a feed issue. Occasionally in older horses the GI tract loses it's ability to absorb nutrients, and the horse begins to lose weight no matter how well fed it is.
Your horse just might be going into that territory.
A check of he fecal out put could be done, to see if protein and other nutrients are escaping from the GI tract.
If that really is the case, then there isn't much that you can do, esp if you are on a limited budget.
Hulless oats, a fat source, a probiotic or a pre-biotic such as Diamond V yeast can all be tried but may not be effective.
But I'd definitely try adding either Ration-Plus, Fastrack or Diamond V yeast to his current diet and see if that helps him.
Yours
MW

Melyni - I am beginning to fear that may be the case. He's on Fastrack. Has been for nearly a year. I know the fecal did not show any parasite overload, but I cannot read the results myself to know whether there is a lack of protein absorption. I was simply told it was "normal."

[Melyni]

Melyni - I am beginning to fear that may be the case. He's on Fastrack. Has been for nearly a year. I know the fecal did not show any parasite overload, but I cannot read the results myself to know whether there is a lack of protein absorption. I was simply told it was "normal."

You would have to ask for a specific test for protein in the feces. They don't do it normally. It isn't a common condition in horses, well not living ones anyway.

Do your best , but don't beat your self up over it. It happens to all of us in the end.
MW

[JSWiley]

We just got a 26 yr old Friesian gelding that is very thin. He was getting fed Triple Crown Sr and it wasn't keeping weight on him. We got him on beat pulp, rice bran, oats, mix in a little triple crown senior, and then pour the Cocosoya Oil on top of all that and mix together. This oil is very digestible and is supposed to be great for putting weight on hard keepers. It is also great for their hair. PLUS, he LOVES it, it smells like popcorn oil and he licks the feeder clean! I have read/heard that most horses love the taste of it.

Anyways, if you want more info on Cocosoya Oil, visit http://www.cocosoya.com/

Our friesian has been on it for the three weeks we have had him and I can see a big difference in him. Check out my blog for pictures.

Good luck!

[BuddyRoo]

Well...could you pay a little more and have them try to feed 3 times a day?

Reason I ask is that horses really aren't designed to take in one big meal at once. You may be able to get more calories into him with a few more meals per day.

[Sandy M]

Well...could you pay a little more and have them try to feed 3 times a day?

Reason I ask is that horses really aren't designed to take in one big meal at once. You may be able to get more calories into him with a few more meals per day.


I will ask. The thing is, he's ALWAYS been a slow eater, so if they bring him in once and he takes five hours to eventually eat everything, leaving stuff, coming back, etc., that's fine. But they ARE saying that sometimes, he just won't eat. Other times, he does. It's very hard to figure out.

[jherold]

When my senior horse wouldn't gain weight despite everything, I switched her from a senior feed to a performance feed. She just wouldn't eat the volume necessary to keep weight on so the solution for her was a feed that compacted more calories into a smaller volume. She never got exactly fat, but it helped.

[fooler]

Agree that more feedings in smaller portions may be better. My 29+ mare has always been a very slow eater and will leave her food to go play. Sounds like he has too much to eat at one time for his mind set.
Also my girl is doing better since I started giving her soaked alfalfa cubes - she thinks that stuff is wonderful.
Good luck

[pintopiaffe]

Could the hocks be enough of an issue that there is chronic, low level pain?

I've seen that before in not-so-old oldsters... the chronic pain is what gets them. My vet has always said a sign of pain is inability to gain weight when all else is right.

:cry:

I know that's not an answer you want to hear, but one worth investigating. :cry:

[Sandy M]

Could the hocks be enough of an issue that there is chronic, low level pain?

I've seen that before in not-so-old oldsters... the chronic pain is what gets them. My vet has always said a sign of pain is inability to gain weight when all else is right.

:cry:

I know that's not an answer you want to hear, but one worth investigating. :cry:

Hocks are completely fused and pain free, so no. But the stifles ... possible. He is on a joint supplement, but perhaps it's not enough. Still, since he's been sensitive, I dread the thought of pain meds going into his stomach....aaargh!!!

[TKR]

I have 3 that are 30 or almost and 2 more at 20. I have had the best luck with Purina Ultium and Purina Senior. I also feed soaked alfalfa cubes and have used flax seed with success in the mix. All of mine look remarkably good and feel good at this point. I feed them 3 x day. You could have him get whatever feed you want him to have in the AM and then give him a few pounds of soaked alfalfa cubes (maybe for each horse?) and they can take their time eating that through the day. I also give a bit of Senior/Ultium at lunch, but it might help with the calories. You could add the flax seed to the alfalfa cubes. I agree, smaller feedings more frequently is much more effective for these older horses. Good luck!
PennyG

[mhtokay]

Sandy,
YOu might have to steel yourself for this one. BUt it may not be a feed issue. Occasionally in older horses the GI tract loses it's ability to absorb nutrients, and the horse begins to lose weight no matter how well fed it is.
Your horse just might be going into that territory.
A check of he fecal out put could be done, to see if protein and other nutrients are escaping from the GI tract.
If that really is the case, then there isn't much that you can do, esp if you are on a limited budget.
Hulless oats, a fat source, a probiotic or a pre-biotic such as Diamond V yeast can all be tried but may not be effective.
But I'd definitely try adding either Ration-Plus, Fastrack or Diamond V yeast to his current diet and see if that helps him.
Yours
MW

But don't these horses have terrible diarrhea? I thought of that, too, or else cancer inside.

[mhtokay]

I will ask. The thing is, he's ALWAYS been a slow eater, so if they bring him in once and he takes five hours to eventually eat everything, leaving stuff, coming back, etc., that's fine. But they ARE saying that sometimes, he just won't eat. Other times, he does. It's very hard to figure out.


If he's taking that long to eat, then it's already like feeding several times a day, in my opinion.

How about a power pac? those encysted things don't show up on a fecal.

[Cherry]

This would be the time to Power Pac this horse if the vet agrees.... The company who makes Panacur says that April and October are the times to deworm if you want to get those pesky migrating strongyles.... ;)

Have you dewormed for tapeworms also??? Two months after the Power Pac I'd deworm with either double Strongid or Equimax to get tapeworms!!!! ;)

It may be that you have to double the amount of Fastrack you are feeding. I have a TB mare that is tough to keep weight on at times and I have found I have to double the recommended amount of probiotics she's getting in order to see a difference.... :yes: She's twenty-three years old.... :)

If you try everything else and nothing works try putting your guy on Uckele's Tri-Amino supplement--it consists of three amino acids: lysine, methionine and threonine--all of which have a direct bearing on weight gain and maintenance.... :yes: You can throw all the food you want at a horse but if it doesn't have the bacteria, amino acids and enzymes to process the feedstuffs, it will be for naught....

[Calena]

I went through this with my old mare last year. She's 25 now and looks and feels great for her age, but she lost an easy 250 lbs. in a frightening short time last year. After a battery of tests came back normal, the conclusion was that she's old and needs managed differently.

What everyone else said . . .

De-worm, de-worm and de-worm again. Power pac the horse. Then double-dose with the equimax. De-worm every 6 weeks.

Don't forget to check the teeth.

Up the calories. Find something high-cal that the horse likes that doesn't make him sick and feed it as often as possible throughout the day.

Assume low-level pain until proven otherwise. It's normal to get aches and pains as we age and it does contribute to weight loss in the elderly. How are his hooves? We discovered my mare was uncomfortable due to being 2 degrees out of balance on her LF hoof. Digital xrays showed zero arthritis anywhere, but the slight out-of-balance hoof was causing her to be sore in the suspensories if she moved too much. We wedged the hoof and the improvement was instanteous.

My old mare who works five days a week for 45 minutes at walk and trot is on the following maintenance diet (now that we've backed off because her weight is fine):

Morning - 4# oats, three flakes grass hay
Afternoon - 4# oats, three flakes grass hay
Evening - an hour on lush grass, 2-1/2# oats, 2-1/2# alfalfa pellets, 5# alfalfa cubes, multi-vitamin supplement, amino acid supplement and probiotics

Regarding all the oats - it's what the barn feeds and my mare LOVES the oats. She'll take all night to finish the alfalfa pellets, but she scarfs up the oats. When we were putting the weight back on her, she also got 2 cups of cocosoya each day along with 3# of senior feed. This is more food than she's ever eaten in her life, but she obviously needed it.

Regarding the amino acid supplement that Cherry mentioned, it's not unusual for geriatric horses to begin having difficulty absorbing all the protein they need. The amino acid supplement (and the alfalfa) helps them to get the protein they need.

She also gets 1 bute every four days. That's all she needs, but it's really helped her get moving and re-build muscle.

Each horse is different, so I'm not suggesting you do exactly what we did for my mare. You need to find what it is your horse loves to eat and feed plenty of it. What is obvious is that the horse needs managed differently to maintain his health and well being. Exactly what 'differently' consists of is what you need to discover for your horse. God bless and good luck ;).

[Sandy M]

If he's taking that long to eat, then it's already like feeding several times a day, in my opinion.

How about a power pac? those encysted things don't show up on a fecal.

\
Done that. Sigh.

Thanks for all the suggestions. Keep 'em coming. I will print this out and take it with me to the clinic, see what we find/conclude there, talk to BO about feeding changes.

This is a real case of making assumptions that didn't turn out as I had thought. Bought an unstarted 2.5 year old, left him with breeder. My old guy is such a star, I figured that by the time the youngster was ready to start + several months with colt starter, I would be able to find a lessee or half-lessee for old guy, keep him at the same place as the youngster, etc. Perhaps because of the economy, or perhaps because some people don't realize just how costly it can be to keep a horse, I was unable to find a half-lessee. One lady loved him, but insisted that $260 to $280 a month was too much! (And I was going to continue to pay half-board and provide monthly Legend shot and all supplements other than half of his senior feed). I told her that basically, she was getting a full lease for a half-lease price - I would only ride the old fellow occasionally - mostly to pony the baby. Instead, 1.5 years later, I had to find a retirement home. Now, 2 years after the fact, old guy is having problems, everything is getting more expensive, baby is at boarding barn now, and I am laden with guilt. Aaargh!!!!

[katarine]

:(

No easy answers. You could try ulcer guard or other less $$ ulcer treatment, just treat him w/o diagnosing him...see if it's tummy issues.

He's been powerpacked...teeth are good...

Cancer doesn't equal diarrhea, to whomever suggested that. I rode a great horse all over MT in 2005...fit as a fiddle. Dead as a doornail by late Spring 2006. There's not always something to tell you in blinking lights what is going on.

you could try a half gram bute a day, or 1g every other day, see if he's just creaky and bothered.

I don't know. In times like this throwing money at an older horse who you intend to retire- but who has long lived, hale and hearty parents...it's hard.

I think you may need to decide how much money you are able- mentally and fiscally- to throw at this...belly taps, ultra sounds, specialists...etc..Lord knows it's bill upon bill upon bill. With that # in mind you discern how much is vet bills, and how much is potentially euthanasia money. When I think of my great boy, Jake, who's 14...if he was listless and unhappy and not eating...at 22...with arthritic issues and a saddened eye. I think I know what I'd do.

[Sandy M]

:(

No easy answers. You could try ulcer guard or other less $$ ulcer treatment, just treat him w/o diagnosing him...see if it's tummy issues.


I don't know. In times like this throwing money at an older horse who you intend to retire- but who has long lived, hale and hearty parents...it's hard.

I think you may need to decide how much money you are able- mentally and fiscally- to throw at this...belly taps, ultra sounds, specialists...etc..Lord knows it's bill upon bill upon bill. With that # in mind you discern how much is vet bills, and how much is potentially euthanasia money. When I think of my great boy, Jake, who's 14...if he was listless and unhappy and not eating...at 22...with arthritic issues and a saddened eye. I think I know what I'd do.

Yes, this is getting very difficult. We've tried the generic ulcer meds and they have made no difference. I think a part of it very well may be that he just doesn't like being retired, but with his arthritic stifles, walking trail rides is about all he can do (and with winter coming on, even in NoCal, that's not really practical (damned shoe-sucking adobe!) even if I could afford to keep him closer to home.

[thatmoody]

Have you tried Surpass (topical diclofenac) on his stifles? That may ease the pain without as much GI effects as bute.

We also put our old and very thin boy on Missing Link in addition to Fat Cat and TC senior. It really made a difference in his condition (he's shiny and putting on weight now).

And of course the deworming and teeth issue should be addressed - those are (relatively) cheap compared to ultrasound! Our old boy gets his teeth floated every 6 months and the vet checks him at about 4 months (she's out at our barn a lot!) to make sure he's not getting sharp or misaligned.

We are facing this, by the way, with our old dog. He has been ultrasounded, his liver has been biopsied, and they just cannot figure out why he's losing weight and is anemic. They believe now that he has leukemia but I've chosen not to go with the bone marrow biopsy. We've treated the liver dysfunction and he's being monitored, and if he doesn't show any improvement in a month or so we'll have to make some hard decisions. So I really sympathize.

[Chief2]

Sandy, I would be leaning towards a trip to the clinic with this boy. You'll get some answers for your money instead of scattering your forces throughout the feed and supplement industry. I would bring your records (or have them sent), a list of his current diet (include any and all supplements and herbs), his worming schedule/product and a list of your thoughts and concerns so you don't forget to cover anything with them. Then, step back and let them go through the horse. This could be anything from cancer to pain management to a sore foot or a cracked tooth. If the money you have already poured into this has gotten you nowhere, then you have everything to gain and nothing to lose by making the trip. JMO.

[Cheerful1]

Your horse sounds just like my old horse a couple of years ago. You might have already thought of this, but could he have sand in his system? My horse kept dropping weight no matter what I tried. He has always been a somewhat hard keeper. He would have days where he seemed listless and didn't have much appetite, and then progressed until he really started dropping weight quickly and became less and less interested in his food. Finally I took him to the horse hospital, where he stayed for two weeks. They had to tube him every day with oil to move the sand out of him - and - I had been giving him the standard psyllium for a week out of every month prior to this.

After I took him home from the hospital I put him on at least one cup of psyllium every day. The more psyllium I fed him, the more weight he put on, until he was fat and sassy once more. He's 27 now. I can't let up on the psyllium either because he'll start to pick up sand even having hay in front of him 24/7. He has a huge tub that is his feeder so that he can't pull his feed out of it. He's just a vacuumer! He had sand problems in the past but nothing to that extent, and one of the times he was on pasture and hay like your horse.

Just a thought, since it worked wonders for my horse after I tried everything else - blood work, de-worming, ulcer medication, every kind of feed formulation, etc.

[wateryglen]

Could it be something as simple as he just doesn't like the taste of his grain and /or supplements? Mine (same issues) developed a distaste for his pelleted feeds unless I added a cup of sweetfeed to it. Also try soaking his feed. Old horses LOVE mush! I've had excellent results with soaked beet pulp & juice added to his pellets until is soft & damp and he slurps it up. Some horse don't like oils taste wise. And yes I think they start developing a "smaller" stomach when they get old. He has a maximum volume he'll eat now at one time and it's up to me to maximize the calories. Stop the supplements and just let him eat the mush. Mine stopped eating when I added supplements so now he only gets ground flax seed in his mush!!! His teeth are "fine" but he's eating less forage. I can tell from his stool volume so I put him on a "fat & fiber" pellet. Pellets are easier to digest & chew IMHO. Regular bran warm mush will encourage eating/slurping !!! Try that!

Good luck with this vexing problem!

Good luck but it might not need a vet if you try feeding management.

[Watermark Farm]

I board retired horses and have had great luck putting weight on those "mysterious" cases (vet work done and inconclusive) by taking the horse off most hay and putting is on "old man mush" --- hay pellets with water added. I like elk grove stable mix and add some rice bran and probiotics, etc etc etc.
I do find I have to put the horse in on its own for most of the day if he's a slow eater and need 12 hours to finish his food!
Hope your guy is OK.

[meaty ogre]

Sandy, my sympathies to you. It seems so unfair for people who responsibly retire their horses and do everything in their power to end up having them look SPCA skinny, when irresponsible owners leave their horses to fend for themselves and they sometimes wind up OK despite.

I own a bunch of oldsters (only 1 horse under 17), and I'm married to a feed dealer so I have a ton of stuff at my disposal, and I've fed lots of different things over the years with success. Nothing has worked better for me than alfalfa. Depending on the horse's preference, I feed either hay, hay cubes/pellets (soaked), or alfalfa meal made into a nice mash. Lots and lots of alfafla, pretty much as much as you can stuff into them. As others have mentioned, digestive deficiency decreases, and protein is not just used to build muscle, but is actually necessary for the diegestive processes to occur. Fat is a good calorie source, but much of digestion hinges on sufficient protein intake.

The other thing I often find myself going back to is Calf Manna, especially for the ones who don't eat with gusto.

Good luck!

[Sandy M]

This might be stupid, but you seem so dedicated to him. Have you thought of an animal communicator? I could pm you a couple I've heard that are good. See if he is in pain, or why he doesn't like to eat, or if it's the retirement question and let him know why he's where he is, etc.

Please, I appreciate the sincerity of your suggestion, but I don't need some scam artist (or deluded animal lover) to "communicate" with my horse by reading MY reactions. I made an offer to one of these people: Come out to the barn. My horse lives here. My horse knows me. I'm sure, if you can communicate with horses, that you will be able to determine WHICH horse is mine. I'll be in the house. Let me know what he says. Strangely...... no takers on my offer.

[Sandy M]

Sandy, I would be leaning towards a trip to the clinic with this boy. You'll get some answers for your money instead of scattering your forces throughout the feed and supplement industry. I would bring your records (or have them sent), a list of his current diet (include any and all supplements and herbs), his worming schedule/product and a list of your thoughts and concerns so you don't forget to cover anything with them. Then, step back and let them go through the horse. This could be anything from cancer to pain management to a sore foot or a cracked tooth. If the money you have already poured into this has gotten you nowhere, then you have everything to gain and nothing to lose by making the trip. JMO.


Yes, I agree. That's pretty much where I am now. I am about to pick up the telephone and make the appointment.

[goeslikestink]

Okay. I have two horses a green 4 year old Araloosa that I board near where I live, and my retiree, a 2nd gen. App/TB cross that is retired. He has arthritic stifles. I tried for about a year to keep him going at least in light dressage (he was 2nd/3rd level, former hunter) and trail with stifle injections, but overall that wasn't all that effective. He is/was sound enough for walking trail rides. I tried for almost another year to find someone interested in half-leasing him for trail riding, so I could keep him near where I live also. I was unsuccessful in that regard, and he now lives on irrigated pasture about a 70-90 min drive away from me. The BOs are VERY conscientious and they are as worried and puzzled as I am about his present condition.

He is quite thin. He's been a "borderline" hard keeper, but not really that difficult to keep in good condition in the past. He presently gets free access grass hay all day and is on irrigated pasture - it's not lush but there is grazing. He is in with three other horses, one of whom is is good buddy, all of whom are elderly, slow eaters like he is. None of them hassle each other. He is brought in with his buddy every day and given alfalfa hay, senior feed, a joint supplement, probiotics, ulcer meds, a fat supplement. I tried that "Cool Stance" stuff that's supposed to put weight on anything, and he wouldn't eat it until we added some apple cider vinegar, and in any event, two sacks worth later - no change. He is "SPCA gonna take you away" thin from the withers back, hips look awful. He's always been a slow eater, but they tell me that sometimes he takes as much as five hours to eat his "extra" feed - that's not difficulty eating, just eating...walking away and standing...eventually coming back to eat some more...etc. His teeth have been checked and he appears to have no problem in that regard. We've done blood work, fecal samples, a belly tap - blood work normal, no excess parasite load, belly tap inconclusive - nothing out of the ordinary. Last time I visited him (10 days ago), he was bright and happy to dive into a nice hulless oats and carrots bran mash and scarf it up - but still thin, thin thin!!!

I'm at my wit's end. I am, at this point, getting ready to take him to a clinic and have - what?? A work up?? Local vet suggested abdominal ultrasound, another local vet said, "What would you expect to find from that?" Uh--I don't KNOW. Talked to clinic - they said, well, yes....since our affiliate suggested ultrasound, we could do that. Send us the blood/fecal/belly tap workup from local vet. Maybe make sure your appointment is on the same day their, gulp, cancer specialist is there, because maybe..... I love him dearly, but even if economic times were NOT has hard as they presently are, I don't have a lot of money to throw at this. I'm paying board on two horses, and I'm creeping up to $500 now on inconclusive tests trying to figure out what's wrong with him. I do not believe that just because a horse is old, it will be thin. I have to think something's wrong, but what to do? He doesn't SEEM to be suffering, but they say sometimes he DOES just stand there and is quite dull, other times bright. He has also walked a visible path in the pasture. Is this because he HATES retirement? But he can really only be lightly trail ridden, and no one is interested in him in that regard. AAARGH!!!!

Oh, he's 22.5 years old. His mother died last summer at age 38. His sire is 26 and still standing at stud. Long-lived stock.

Any thoughts? suggestions?


be aware some horse dont go past there sell by date and start to go down hill
ask your self -- what is his quality of llife------ be honest with yourself
it might be hs times up

[SuperSTB]

Please, I appreciate the sincerity of your suggestion, but I don't need some scam artist (or deluded animal lover) to "communicate" with my horse by reading MY reactions. I made an offer to one of these people: Come out to the barn. My horse lives here. My horse knows me. I'm sure, if you can communicate with horses, that you will be able to determine WHICH horse is mine. I'll be in the house. Let me know what he says. Strangely...... no takers on my offer.

I just spewed coffee on the keyboard. You probably didn't intend to make a funny- but this got me laughing something good. (wipe tears... giggle giggle)

You've got my sympathanies and jingle on the weight issue. I've had a hard keeper at the barn who was in his mid teens, constant battle over weight and yes sometimes he dropped enough that you'd go "gasp- WTF?" A good nutritional study plus vet work up but as the issue I see with many vet work-ups it's kind of like put hundred dollar bills on the back of a lawn dart and giving it a good chuck not know where the frig it'll land.

Low level pain however- is sneaky and can really rob a horse's life. My pony gets pain meds on and off- she's a punk too. Some days are just bad days. A little pain relief and it's like she turns to a 2yo in the matter of hours.

[MSP]

You need to first eliminate any problems so pull blood. PPID (cushings) is always something to suspect if he has lost his top line. After eliminating possible problems then you can be safer in assuming it is diet and lack of absorption.

Even when they have teeth they can have difficulty chewing and may need to go to a specialist. I can't speak for TC as I can't get it here but the easiest feed for old timers to digest in my area is Purina Senior. It is extruded and so easier for a horse to digest. You will need to figure out what your horse could benefit from, sometimes this is trial and error (or lots of testing).

My 35 year old is PPID and on pergolide (which doesn't help his weight), I have him on Purina senior with oil and water, Pro-Bios, daily wormer (I definitely know this helps keep weight on) and Remission. A very rigorous worming schedule is import ant as well.

[Sandy M]

You need to first eliminate any problems so pull blood. PPID (cushings) is always something to suspect if he has lost his top line. After eliminating possible problems then you can be safer in assuming it is diet and lack of absorption.

Even when they have teeth they can have difficulty chewing and may need to go to a specialist. I can't speak for TC as I can't get it here but the easiest feed for old timers to digest in my area is Purina Senior. It is extruded and so easier for a horse to digest. You will need to figure out what your horse could benefit from, sometimes this is trial and error (or lots of testing).

My 35 year old is PPID and on pergolide (which doesn't help his weight), I have him on Purina senior with oil and water, Pro-Bios, daily wormer (I definitely know this helps keep weight on) and Remission. A very rigorous worming schedule is import ant as well.

Blood work all normal. No Cushings. He's on a senior feed, though not the Purina version. He's allergis to molasses, so he can't eat the Purina kind. As I stated above, he gets senior feed (Nutrena version), he gets a fat supplement (easier to store in hot weather than oil), he gets Fastrak (pro biotics), joint supplement, ulcer supplement (just in case - hasn't made any difference), alfalfa hay (he doesn't waste hay - he just stands there and doesn't eat much), and generic alfalfa pellets.

Going to try soaking them. Going to try Triple Crown. Interestingly, BO took him off ALL extras for 10 days-two weeks to see what would happen: He didn't gain any weight, he didn't lose any weight. Looks absolutely the same. When he's brought in for feed, he digs right in for about 5 or 10 mins, then walks away. Eventually, he will eat everything, but as I said, that can take up to five hours. When I visited him last weekend, he scarfed a bran mash with hulless loats right up - but when I came to get him out of the pasture, the other three horses were quietly eating, and he was standing at the hay rack next to his friend, just standing there, not eating. When I returned him to pasture, I hand-offered him some hay. Not interested. Sigh.

[MSP]

Yes, change feed! Maybe if you can find something he really likes! I am very guarded about Nutrina feed now and I have heard lots of good thing about TC so if you can get it try it.

No molasses is a tough one but I got my old guy to eat when I took him off Senior when he was first diagnosed with PPID. He just could not thrive on regular feed, low NSC or not. So back to extruded! BTW, feed store people didn't know the difference between pellets and extruded feed so be prepared.

Definitely water down the food. If he doesn't like his food try adding something he can tolerate. I used chopped alfalfa to get my guy to eat at one point.

[Sooster]

Sandy,

I board my horse where your horse lives. He ALWAYS has hay in front of him but as you said, eats very slowly. The only other thing I can think of is he misses you? He is very attached to his friend in pasture and I assume he is also attached to you. I had a horse growing up and if I were away from him for a week, he would drop lbs. Sounds silly but really it might have a play in it. Also, I tried Cocosoya oil on my skinny TB and it made a big difference as did the Ultium.

T

[shalomypony]

I make a nice hot mash am and pm for my 36 yr old.He eats TC sr,rice bran oil,cosequin,omega horseshine,and farriers formula..........he also get a water bucket 3/4 full of well soaked alf-timothy cubes am and pm. For lunch he gets a bucket of alfa dengie.But he LOVES the hot food.Actually my youngster gets hot food am and pm too!!

[ddashaq]

Hocks are completely fused and pain free, so no. But the stifles ... possible. He is on a joint supplement, but perhaps it's not enough. Still, since he's been sensitive, I dread the thought of pain meds going into his stomach....aaargh!!!


Is it possible that if he is in constant, low-grade pain he has ulcers? I would imagine that could (among a million other things!) explain why he eats sometimes and not others.

Totally off topic, but is he the gorgeous horse in your profile picture?

[Equa]

Does your horse NEED to be fat and round and shiny? (Obese????)

Longevity is more prevalent in those individuals who are thinner rather than fatter.

I have a 37 year old WB gelding who used to be a "typical" WB shape. He now looks like a skinny old bag of bones. He is still sound and canters and gallops daily. His teeth are fine. LOVES his feed (mare cubes, lucerne chaff and rice bran in a mash) plus hay and plenty of grazing. When I double his feed, he looks no different.

I guess I could ask an animal communicator (my favourite people!) to ask him what, if anything, is bothering him, but I suspect his answers might be fairly mundane....an abusive childhood, an otherwise unremarkable life, anxiety about a change in routine (strange, that) and an inability to remember things....I don't think he'll mention that his supermodel thinness is a cause for body-image concern.

[tma]

I would second checking out the possibility of sand accumulation. That was my first thought, based on what you've already done. Although with the diagnostic processes you've already been through, I am a bit surprised that if it is an issue, that your vet hasn't already discovered, or at least suspected it. A horse with a substantial sand load's gut sound is pretty distinctive. If you can rule that out...(an easy way for you to check would be to place a few manure balls in a container of water, shake it up, leave it for a while to settle and then see if there is much sand settled to the bottom.

Our 31 year old (who has Cushings and whom I have chosen to treat as IR as well...meaning no molasses, among other things) had maintained very well on soaked hay pellets alone as his sole diet for several years (he hadn't been able to chew hay well for a while) + his daily Pergolide, and dry psyllium husk (not pellets) one week/month. He too, takes time to consume his feed.

If your boy can eat hay pellets, it might be worth trying to keep him up in a "dry lot" with free-choice pellets in front of him 24/7, at least to try for a while (a couple of weeks, or more?). Less bulk than the hay + grass, and he might be able to get the nutrition he needs as a result.

If he can't eat/chew dry pellets effectively, try soaking them and see if that helps him. Our boy clearly enjoys his soaked pellets in warm/hot water in cold weather. In very hot weather, we break it up into one extra feeding each day so that it doesn't have a chance to get rancid in the heat before he can clean each serving up.

Beet pulp is also very good for adding calories; I've seen it do wonders for a horse belonging to a friend, that was in a similar situation as you describe.

If/when you've ruled out ulcers, and maybe also growths/masses (via the ultrasound) maybe a closer look at his mouth is warranted. Or maybe before you take the ultrasound step?

When our boy got "picky" about his feed, we discovered that on typical inspection that while his teeth all appeared good (and were all present LOL), on closer inspection it turned out that he actually had a bit of a gap between two of his top, rear molars on both sides, and hay/feed was getting crammed up in the gaps, irritating his gums and making him uncomfortable and reluctant to eat. That's when we went to the soaked pellets - the more moisture, the less likely to get gummed up there. It made a huge difference.

Don't know if this will help your boy or not, but thought I'd throw it all out for whatever it's worth (or not!).

[BostonBanker]

I've seen the product slammed on this forum for being a scam, but what turned my horse around when he was nearly 200 lbs underweight and not interested in eating was Re-Borne (http://www.re-borne-equine.com). I had done everything you mentioned to try and help him; several rounds of bloodwork, the abdominal tap, fecals, tests for lawsonia, scoped for ulcers, treated for ulcers despite not finding any, two different dentists, check for TMJ pain, etc. He was only 11 at the time, and looked so bad that I was scared I'd have to put him down. He would barely pick at hay, and wouldn't touch any sort of grain/beet pulp/mash.

I had him on the Re-Borne for about 2 months. Within a couple of weeks, he started eating, and was polishing off all the hay I would give him, and cleaning up 85% or so of his grain. Even after pulling him off the Re-Borne a couple of months ago, he is still eating like a champion. He's at an absolutely ideal weight right now. If I knew how to post pictures here, I'd give you the before and after shots.

I know colostrum shouldn't work on adult horses. I know the product is a pain to deal with (needs to be kept in the freezer/fridge). I also know it is the only thing, out of 18 months of trying everything, and so much money I don't even want to think about it, that WORKED.

[hayabusagirl]

I have seen a lot of good advice and much of it is what I had to do for my 16.2H TB rescue . One thing that may be going on is that he is depressed which follows the line of thinking of giving him a light job (also w/ no work horses tend to look worse due to atrophy of muscle along their topline which emphasizes their thinness even more). As people have said, do not beat yourself up as it may be something you can not control. You have obviously been trying and love this horse but be thorough in your evaluation to make sure this is not a chronic pain issue...

[Sandy M]

Is it possible that if he is in constant, low-grade pain he has ulcers? I would imagine that could (among a million other things!) explain why he eats sometimes and not others.

Totally off topic, but is he the gorgeous horse in your profile picture?

Yes, the horse in the picture is Erik. That picture was taken when he was about 17 or 18.

I don't know that I could impose upon the BOs to be giving him twice daily branmashes. However, I think they would be willing to soak his feed.

If he is missing me - and that certainly is a possibility, since I have owned him since he was 4 years old and always been is primary rider/caretaker - then I'm stumped. I CAN (barely) afford to keep him where he is. I canNOT afford to keep him where I board my current riding horse. This past weekend, a nice lady said she might be interested in grooming and fussing with him a couple of times a week (for her "horse fix"), and I told her she would be doing me a favor if she would do that, and that if he picked up a bit of weight she was welcome to ride him (ANYONE can ride him - he is Mr. Reliable - the type of horse that stops moving if he feels you get off balance). Maybe that will help. In the meantime, I'm making the clinic appointment - While my funds are limited, I have to think that it will be less expensive in the long run to take advantage of their facilities, rather than keep the local vet coming out time and again trying different diagnostics.

[aburke]

I've seen the product slammed on this forum for being a scam, but what turned my horse around when he was nearly 200 lbs underweight and not interested in eating was Re-Borne (http://www.re-borne-equine.com). I had done everything you mentioned to try and help him; several rounds of bloodwork, the abdominal tap, fecals, tests for lawsonia, scoped for ulcers, treated for ulcers despite not finding any, two different dentists, check for TMJ pain, etc. He was only 11 at the time, and looked so bad that I was scared I'd have to put him down. He would barely pick at hay, and wouldn't touch any sort of grain/beet pulp/mash.

I had him on the Re-Borne for about 2 months. Within a couple of weeks, he started eating, and was polishing off all the hay I would give him, and cleaning up 85% or so of his grain. Even after pulling him off the Re-Borne a couple of months ago, he is still eating like a champion. He's at an absolutely ideal weight right now. If I knew how to post pictures here, I'd give you the before and after shots.

I know colostrum shouldn't work on adult horses. I know the product is a pain to deal with (needs to be kept in the freezer/fridge). I also know it is the only thing, out of 18 months of trying everything, and so much money I don't even want to think about it, that WORKED.

You are right, until now, nobody thought that colostrum could work on older horses. To most people's knowledge, colostrum is only good for the first few hours after birth. What has been found is that certain properties of colostrum are benficial no matter what the age. It can stimulate apetite, as you know, build lean muscle mass, increase immune support, provide a healthier coat, improve gastrointestinal health, and the list goes on. Re-Borne is a fantastic natural product that has a long shelf life and many benefits no matter what the age of your horse might be.

I put a 6 year old mare on the product that was having some respiratory issues and within 5 days it had cleared up and haven't had anymore trouble out of her. Actually I had to take the mare off of the product after 10 days because she was converting feed so effeciently that she was getting to fat. I know that it is hard to believe but that is the truth, everybody ought to give this stuff a shot.

[BornToRide]

Could be somthing hiding in his gut that could be a factor. If it was my horse I'd go back to basics for at least a month - free choice grass hay only supplemented with alfalfa, bran mash and soaked BP as needed and minerals and a no grain vitamin supplement. Ideally I'd have the forage tested and only supplement for what is needed.

I would also treat him for sand accumulations if you have not done so already and screen his poop for blood as well. I do not remember seeing anything about teeth, but theye were probably checked already . However, I have a friend who has an older horse who had regular dental care and who all of a sudden pretty much stopped eating. Turned out she was simply lacking tooth enamel and was no longer able to chew properly. Unfortunately the vet who had done the last dental on that horse never pointed that possibility out to my friend.

Once her diet was converted to soaked pellets, she was back to normal.

Also, gluten intolerance has been found in humans, dogs and cats. I would not be suprised if some horses are affected as well to varying degrees. This could also very well be a possibility in his case, hence the removal of all grain for a while. If that makes a difference , I would no longer feed any grain to this horse.

How was he tested for Cushings? Was he also tested for IR? Does he show any fat pads over his eyes, shoulders or rump? Does he suffer from edema, especially under the eyes? Any other unusual sign that may point to Cushings or IR after all, like white line stretching in the hooves, regular stress lines growing down the hoof wall?

[tpup]

I don't have much else to offer except to say that for my gelding, it took 3 meals per day - not 2. The max amount of TC complete per day, split into 3 meals (about 3 pounds each meal), 1.5 pounds of rice bran pellets lunch meal, 3 quarts soaked BP, corn oil and weight builder. A 3rd meal enables you to get several pounds more quality "groceries" in him. I hope you find out what it is.

[webmistress32]

I had a very thin mare and she was wasting away. blood tests were done every two weeks for three months. the only thing we saw was elevated calcium. in the end it was cancer. :-(