Calories in TC Senior vs. Ultium (gelding is dropping weight)

[nervousalter]

My new gelding (10 yr old Appendix - 15.2hh) came to me 100 pounds underweight according to the PPE vet, although she scored him a "5". The stress of moving to his new barn/schedule made him drop more (could start to see his ribs), so I switched him over from the barn's 12%/2.5% sweet feed to a higher fat feed: TC Senior on the advice of the company rep - he won't eat TC Complete. That seemed to work for 2 weeks, but he's become ribby again.

He's in moderate work (in training 4x week), gets 5 flakes of bermuda coastal hay a day (approx 12-15 pounds), is turned out 6 hours, and gets 9 qts (10lbs) of TC Senior spread out over 3 feedings.

Additionally, he's on HylaRX Complete, Farrier's Formula, Omega Horseshine, and a daily wormer. He was wormed with Zimectin Gold a few weeks before I bought him. His teeth have been floated and he's not at all nervous.

He needs more calories, but I'm at a loss as to how to get them into him. Throwing him extra hay isn't working - he gets two flakes at 10pm and 1 at his am feeding and I often find it scattered about in when I get there at 8am.

He's at a large boarding barn, so soaking bp isn't an option, we're in Texas, so alfalfa hay isn't an option... I'm not at the barn during his feeding times (5am / 2:30pm / 10pm), but can set out buckets, although I obviously can't add straight oil to them and leave them to sit out hours until his next feeding.

People have suggested rice bran pellets & Calf-Manna as well as One n' Only. I'm wondering if another more calorie dense grain might be the way to go - Ultium?

I have access to Triple Crown, Nutrena and Purina.

Any help would be appreciated.

[ladipus]

Purina Ultium is a great calorie/nutrient dense food and you often will feed less than other feeds-my 17yr wb show hunter has been on it since i got him 4yrs ago and he looks fantastic-great weight,beautiful topline/condition-in fact people can't believe he's 17yrs.
Before changing feeds-have his teeth been floated lately/properly?that often times makes a difference in maintaining weight?,secondly-even though he's on daily dewormer-has he been paste dewormed every 6 months w/ an ivermectin/praziquantel dewormer? I know you mentioned Zimectrin Gold-i've heard not so great things about that particular dewormer-some people won't ever give it-and that very well could be attributing to his weight loss/unthriftyness.
Another thing to consider-the stress of moving could've brought on some ulcers.

I'd suggest getting him on a probiotic-fastrack or probios work great and help w/ weight gain,and switching to ultium might be a good choice if he'll eat it. Then after a while if he still needs more calories-you could try adding Legends rice bran pellets(if your feed store carries triple crown products they'd probably have legends as its from the same line/makers-which is southern states-which is where triple crown/legends come from)-or Nutrena makes something called Empower for added calories

[nervousalter]

Before changing feeds-have his teeth been floated lately/properly?

Yes, his teeth were floated 6 months ago and the PPE vet recommended they be done in another 6 months. His new vet specializes in Equine Dentistry and said he definitely could go another 6 months, but being concerned about his weight, I asked that he float them early. So within the next couple of weeks, that should be done again.

has he been paste dewormed every 6 months w/ an ivermectin/praziquantel dewormer? I know you mentioned Zimectrin Gold-i've heard not so great things about that particular dewormer-some people won't ever give it-and that very well could be attributing to his weight loss/unthriftyness.

He was getting the Zimectrin Gold every 6 months and I was thinking of giving him another dose just to be sure, but if you have another brand you could recommend, lay it on me.

Another thing to consider-the stress of moving could've brought on some ulcers.

He's so laid back that I can't imagine the change of scenery would have done it, but due to the hurricane last month, we had a couple of evacuee horses move into the barn and one is stabled right next to my gelding. The new horse's dutch door is directly next to my gelding's feed door and corner feeder. The new horse will harass him while he's eating - and that does upset my guy. He'll pin his ears and try to bite back. Could that cause ulcers?

I'd suggest getting him on a probiotic-fastrack or probios work great and help w/ weight gain,

The TC Senior has probiotics in it, so I'm not sure if it's a lack that's a problem.

I'll ask my trainer if the nasty gelding's stall can be switched with the other nicer evacuee's stall across the aisle. I can't have my gelding's stall moved - just spent $60 last night having it dug out thoroughly and rebedded.

[Ambrey]

http://www.animalhealthfoundation.com/Documents/ObesityandLaminitisWhatCanBeDone.pdf

There's a list at the end.

[Simkie]

Have you done a power pak on this horse? That's where I would start. After that, I would add oil (and some alfalfa, if you can swing it.)

[gabz]

Hopefully, you can find out what is bothering the horse. It sounds like he doesn't like the hay he is getting if he's leaving it.

The harassment of a neighboring horse could be upsetting him. If they cannot move that horse, maybe they can at least put YOUR horse's hay on a different wall away from the bully.

An alternative dewormer would be a FULL dose of ivermectin. Make sure your horse is not being underdosed.

Another possibility would be to use something like Sand Clear - a psyllium husk product dissolved in water and fed to him for a week. I use discount store brand for people. 1/2 cup, dissolved in water with a dose of Ration Plus liquid pro/prebiotic, once a day for a week.

Purina Athlete is a high fat supplement. It is extruded pellets. Comes in 50 pound bags and you only need to feed 1 or 2 pounds along with whatever the horse is currently eating. Or.. you could use an equine senior feed. TC, Purina, and other companies make them. They usually have high fat and high fiber contents without a high protein.

[nervousalter]

There's a list at the end.

Thank you so much! I've bookmarked the page. It looks like Ultium has about 20% more calories to the pound than TC Senior and locally it's only a dollar more a bag, so I think I'll start switching him over.

Have you done a power pak on this horse? That's where I would start. After that, I would add oil (and some alfalfa, if you can swing it.)

No, I haven't done a power pak on him. I'd thought about it and recently read a thread on here about using the liquid livestock wormer in its place (same ingredient, less money). I'll order some.


I bought him Calf-Manna, alfalfa pellets and rice bran pellets today and I'm thinking I might be able to give him an extra meal when I go in to clean his stall, so the oil may be an option.

The harassment of a neighboring horse could be upsetting him. If they cannot move that horse, maybe they can at least put YOUR horse's hay on a different wall away from the bully.

They'll only drop the hay in one spot, so what I did tonight was give my guy an extra flake and give the neighboring gelding a half a flake of my hay to keep him busy while my gelding ate.

Or.. you could use an equine senior feed. TC, Purina, and other companies make them. They usually have high fat and high fiber contents without a high protein.

He's on TC Senior now and it has 14% protein, which troubles me a bit, not because I'm worried he'll get hot (he's got a TB build & metabolism with a QH mind), but because of the excess ammonia in his urine. The Ultium has 10% protein, I believe, which I'd be happier with if I'm giving him alfalfa pellets (to balance out the Calcium deficiency in the rice bran pellets). I've got to check the math on that to see what ratio I have to feed the pellets in.

Oh and the Omega Horseshine supposedly - no experience to back this up - will act much like Sand Clear in the gut.

My closet is beginning to look like a feed store...

[Altamont Sport Horses]

Many "senior feeds" are complete feeds in that they are designed so that you can feed that product without feeding any forage. This is for horses that have a hard time chewing forage because they are missing teeth, etc. So, the forage is already in the feed. See TC's description here. http://www.triplecrownfeed.com/seniorfeeding.php This means that although the feed is digestible the senior feeds will generally be less calorie dense and you'd have to feed more volume of those senior feeds than you would another quality feed. I would recommend taking him off the senior feed and replacing it with a good quality pelleted feed with a good percentage of fat. If you continue with the senior feed and have to add even more calories with added fat then you put him at risk for ulcers.

TC recommends feeding 12-15 lbs of their senior feed. Yours is getting about 10 lbs and I suspect is working more than most senior horses would be so he would need even more of the senior feed. Basically, he just isn't getting enough calories.

TC Senior has 10% fat which is actually more than many other feeds. But more calories alone, in a non-senior feed, might work fine for him even if the fat content is closer to 7-8% (like Safe Choice by Nutrena). If you find that he still needs fat you can always use rice bran which you can put into baggies or containers to make it easier for the people feeding at the barn.

[Simkie]

TC recommends feeding 12-15 lbs of their senior feed. Yours is getting about 10 lbs and I suspect is working more than most senior horses would be so he would need even more of the senior feed. Basically, he just isn't getting enough calories.

They only recommend 12 to 15 pounds if the senior feed is the horse's SOLE ration. They recommend 6 pounds if the horse can eat hay.

[hollyhorse2000]

Bite the bullet and spend money on Ulcergard. It's the same as Gastrogard only without a prescription. I decided to try an experiment on my mare recently to see if it make a difference in her girthiness. That part is only a partial success. But in two weeks my mare put on weight! Noticeable even to others, not just me. She wasn't technically a hard-keeper or one I was working to put weight on, but she can get skinnier than I like in the winter and she didn't have quite the layer of fat I'd like over her ribs. Now she does and I'm thinking we'll have to start cutting back on her grain if this continues. The ONLY change was Ulcergard. I didn't even do the full dose. I gave her one full tube the first day, gave a half tube for the next two days and then the recommended 1/4 tube for subsequent days (which is for prevention not actually cure). I've gone through eight tubes. I can't believe the difference in her weight. She had no obvious symptoms other than girthiness.

[ponyjumper4]

They only recommend 12 to 15 pounds if the senior feed is the horse's SOLE ration. They recommend 6 pounds if the horse can eat hay.

Precisely. 6lbs for a 1,000lb horse that is eating hay. More for something heavier.

Also note that Purina Ultium and other Purina and Nutrena feeds are higher in sugar/starch than Triple Crown feeds, so be aware you may see an attitude change, depending on your horse's sugar/starch tolerance.

[nervousalter]

hollyhorse, where did you find the UlcerGard "treatment dose" recommendations? I'm only able to find the "preventative dose" information on their site.

[oldenmare]

Try feeding the powdered Uguard - that works with my guy who is ULTRA stoic - but he is prone to ulcers. I put him on the liquid Uguard the first 30 days (about $35 for the bottle - gallon size) then switch over the the powder (about $60 for 60 day supply). I found this to be a much more affordable option.

[Simkie]

hollyhorse, where did you find the UlcerGard "treatment dose" recommendations? I'm only able to find the "preventative dose" information on their site.

Ulcergard is exactly the same thing as Gastrogard, only with a different label.

In order to TREAT ulcers, you must give one full tube of either once a day. 2.28 grams of omeprazole per 1200 lbs of horse.

In order to PREVENT ulcers, you must give 1/4 tube of either once a day. 0.57 g of omeprazole per 1200 lbs of horse.

Gastrogard is labeled to TREAT, and is an RX. Ulcergard is labeled to PREVENT, and is OTC. As long as you understand the dosing, one can be substituted for the other.

[nervousalter]

Just searched around and saw that they recommend giving that dose for 28 days, so it's about a $1,000 proposition to treat ulcers with UlcerGard? Dear Lord.

I sincerely hope it isn't ulcers - but he is dropping weight, his coat is dull and he's gotten a little mouthy/nippy and often licks his metal stall door. I thought the mouthiness was due to kids giving him treats.

Does anyone know if the scoping needs to be done at the vet's generally? The vet will tranq him when he floats his teeth so I'm wondering if he could be scoped at the same time.

Another question, I've got Major Medical on him - would that cover the treatment?

[Simkie]

Another question, I've got Major Medical on him - would that cover the treatment?

Yup, it sure does! :D

If your vet has a 3 meter scope he should be able to take a look at the stomach on the same day as a float. Not all vets have a scope, though.

[gabz]

I believe that insurance does cover it... the scoping requires that the horse not have ANY food for anywhere from 8 - 12 hours beforehand which can be very bad for any horse - more so for an ulcery one.

Usually people use the GastroGard/Ulcergard treatment for 1 week and if they see an improvement, do the next 3 weeks. 28 days of full tube, then 10 -14 days of 1/2 tube, then 1/4 tube. Once the ulcers are healed, you may be able to use a preventative only...

$1000 may seem like a lot of money, but if you consider the alternative - especially if the horse starts having colic symptoms from not eating...

[Altamont Sport Horses]

They only recommend 12 to 15 pounds if the senior feed is the horse's SOLE ration. They recommend 6 pounds if the horse can eat hay.

I'm sorry, I still don't think it sounds like he is getting enough. I have pasture potatos and open broodmares that eat at least 25 lbs. of good quality hay per day, are turned out at least 9 hours (some are out 24 hours) and eat more than 6 lbs of a pelleted grain (Safe Choice). They are not working and they need that much to maintain weight. They have their teeth done, dewormed regularly, vaccinated, and never go anywhere or have a reason to have ulcers. Most are turned out 24 hours a day and have continuous access to forage in the form of grass and/or hay.

I would think a horse in training 4x/week would need more. I don't know how lush your grass is in turnout, that might help. And perhaps you have very rich hay. If it is just average though, I would think he isn't getting enough between the hay and 10 lbs. of senior.

If he is prone to ulcers you want to limit the volume of grain meals. They overproduce acid when fed grain and larger meals will irritate the top portion of the stomach which is not well protected from stomach acid. I would go with a more calorie and nutrient dense feed and let him have his forage separately. In addition, alfalfa helps horses prone to ulcers. The calcium in the alfalfa soothes the stomach. If you can give alfalfa to your horse before a grain that is supposed to help. We use alfalfa pellets with our horses that are showing to help protect their stomachs while they are stressed. Pellets are easier for us to store and tote around and seem to do the job. I have a friend who suspected her horse may have the beginning of ulcers. She took him off his grain and substituted it with alfalfa pellets. He was feeling great within 5 days. She didn't use any medication or supplements.

Believe or not, horses are smart enough to make the connection between grain and their stomachs hurting. That is why horses with ulcers that aren't severe will eat grass and hay but won't touch their grain. And if you put forage in their grain they will eat the forage out and leave the grain behind. The TC Complete might have been hard on his stomach and that is why he wouldn't eat it. The TC Senior having more forage in it would be easier on his stomach so long as he was eating smallish meals like it sounds you have been doing with him.

Many people who suspect their horse has ulcers choose to treat rather than scope. If the horse doesn't have ulcers, the treatment won't hurt him. Scoping is expensive (make sure that your insurance company won't consider this a pre-existing condition since he came to you thin and it sounds like you have not had him long). They also can't have anything in their stomach for 12 hours prior to the scoping. That alone is going to make the situation worse before you actually start treating.

Since the horse isn't off his feed and only losing weight, I think if I was faced with your situation I would take him off grain and substitute it with alfalfa pellets (I'm assuming you can get pellets in TX), add a vitamin/mineral supplement, and add rice bran for added fat. As far as alfalfa pellets go, we've been able to feed less volume with the alfalfa as compared to grain. I might also take him out of work for a week or two just to help remove stressors and give him a jump start for healing his stomach...if that is indeed the problem.