Farriers, advice please

[TBrescue]

Here's the story. My friend's horse was hot nailed by a farrier that I recommended. This farrier shoed my old horse for about a year without any issues. My new horse is barefoot and I trim myself, so no need for any farrier services now.

First of all, I feel so guilty and responsible-I did recommend this person. Second of all I have never experienced this before, just wondering how often it happens and what is the appropriate behavior from the farrier? This farrier did not seem to accept any responsibility, even after the shoes were subsequently pulled and the horse was obviously bleeding from the hot nail. IMHO the farrier should have been at minimum apologetic and accepting responsibility for the situation. This farrier almost tried to imply that the horse was lame before the trim.

Looking for advice/feedback from farriers and horse owners who have been in this situation. Thanks so much

[Cherry]

In my experience in the horse world this can happen even to the best farriers, but the best farriers will own up to it and make reparations in some fashion--not make excuses. Typically the hot nail is located by tapping on the nail and it is removed (and doctored with iodine) but the shoes don't usually come off.

Personally, I won't deal with people who can't take responsibility for their own actions, even when the truth is staring them in the face!!!! :no: Maybe the horse was lame before it was shod and that is relevant how???? That doesn't account for the blood coming from the hoof where the hot nail was.... Good grief!

It isn't your fault this happened--so knock it off and stop kicking yourself! :winkgrin:

[ReeseTheBeast]

Hot or close nails are just one of those things that happen. Ideal? Nope. But it isn't necessarily a deal-breaker, and certainly not something you should feel guilty for.

As far as the farrier's behavior- I have no comment on that; since I have no further information about the story (how was he approached when asked about the nail, was the horse difficult to handle, etc)...

Not to say that anyone should be using kid gloves or inciting a God complex in a farrier (or anyone else for that matter); but I know that if a person is approached in an accusatory tone and manner, it's common to get a defensive response from said person- whether it be a farrier or otherwise.

(**Not that I'm saying this is what happened! I'm just offering some insight from things I've seen before :))

Incidentally, if the farrier is not interested in making it right or involving himself in fixing up the horse, then I say good riddance and time for your friend to find a competent PROFESSIONAL hoofcare provider. :yes:

[Just Wondering]

IMHO the farrier should have been at minimum apologetic and accepting responsibility for the situation. This farrier almost tried to imply that the horse was lame before the trim.

Looking for advice/feedback from farriers and horse owners who have been in this situation. Thanks so much

Were you there? Or are you getting her side of the story? Perhaps the farrier didn't fall over himself in a manner your friend would of liked?

[TBrescue]

Were you there? Or are you getting her side of the story? Perhaps the farrier didn't fall over himself in a manner your friend would of liked?

I was standing there, trying not to get too involved b/c it's not my horse. I observed the farrier's actions, and IMO, didn't feel that the farrier really owned up to the fact that it was a hot nail at all.

[Rick Burten]

Just out of curiosity, who pulled the shoe and found the hot nail?

Regardless, this can happen to any farrier. Its easy to fix--remove the offending nail, pour in some iodine or the like, stuff a bit of oakum in the nail hole in the shoe and use a different nail hole. Look the owner in the eye, tell them what happened, etc, and go on about the work.

Some owners will fire you on the spot, others, with more than one or two operating brain cells, will not.

A hot nail is much easier to deal with than a close nail because you know right away that something is amiss and can deal with the situation then and there. A close nail usually takes a few days to announce its presence and by then there is often some abscessing occurring. Regardless, the farrier should immediately return and deal with the situation.

Bear in mind the the margin for error when driving a two inch metal spike into an often moving target that is often less than 1/16 inch wide is measured in thousandths of an inch.

[TBrescue]

Just out of curiosity, who pulled the shoe and found the hot nail?

Farrier finished trimming, asked for horse to be walked out and horse was lame. Farrier pulled shoes at owners request, but basically said something along the lines of "he was lame before he was shod" (not sure of exact words used)


Regardless, this can happen to any farrier. Its easy to fix--remove the offending nail, pour in some iodine or the like, stuff a bit of oakum in the nail hole in the shoe and use a different nail hole. Look the owner in the eye, tell them what happened, etc, and go on about the work.

I agree, that's the part that DIDN'T happen. I think if the farrier had stepped up and acknowledged that there was a shoeing issue the owner would have felt better about the situation.



Bear in mind the the margin for error when driving a two inch metal spike into an often moving target that is often less than 1/16 inch wide is measured in thousandths of an inch.

Again, I agree with that too. The horse was pretty quiet til he was hot nailed, then he was very uncomfortable and didn't want to stand still

[Cherry]

I think if the farrier had stepped up and acknowledged that there was a shoeing issue the owner would have felt better about the situation.

Exactly my point! Not only that but, as a farrier, you inspire trust that you actually care about the animal and the kind of work you do--but that didn't happen here. Denial is not just a river in Egypt....

I'm apt to be more forgiving of someone who just tells the truth--that they may not be perfect and screw up from time to time.... :uhoh: If you shoe long enough hot nails happen to all farriers and it sounds as if this guy has been at it long enough to know what he was dealing with, and not try to foist the blame off on anyone (and anything) rather than take responsibility for it.... :(

[cloudyandcallie]

This has happened to me 2x in many many years.

Our old very good but alcoholic farrier years ago quicked/hotnailed Fireball, and reset the shoe. He got a tentanus booster, and all was well. Admittedly accidental, and corrected the problem. This farrier did my 2 horses from childhood well into adulthood, 4 steel shoes each, and hotshoeing with one "boo boo".

Fast forward many years and 2 days before a show in 2001, Cloudy got new shoes, was lame when I got to barn to ride that day, I said he was quicked/hot nailed , BO said no way, farrier was called, came out next day, reset shoe, all was well, Cloudy was sound.

Everyone makes mistakes. And some horses are not cooperative when being shod.

So if the farrier came back out and reset the shoe, without charge of course, that would be OK.

As long as he doesn't do it more than once every 10 or 20 yrs.

[abbydp]

My farrier and I have worked together for years, and become good friends. I have reccommended him to many people, and got him into specialty shoeing with a specialist. I trust him completely with my horse.

His first time working on my boy he ended up with a very painful hot nail. He did however offer to come back and pull it. There was another farrier there at the time that helped me out. As several others have said - it is all in how you handle things. It can and does happen to the best of them. I can not imagine doing that job - I wouldn't live through it - and greatly admire them. I wouldn't write him off yet. If he felt attacked or put on the defensive, that could explain his reaction. If he remains this way in the future, maybe move on. Don't fault him YET for one bad nail.

[TBrescue]

unfortunately it looks like the farrier got him in both fronts. He is crippled lame, will not move at all. I think she got the RF first, and he flinched, then she moved over to the LF and he would not stand on the RF-he reared once and I think that's when she got the LF....or maybe that was WHEN she got the LF?

Vet was called last night, xrays, antibiotics, bute, ice baths, treating for laminitis at this point.

Still waiting to hear back from the farrier :(

[BuddyRoo]

I think that the frequency of hot nails goes up with a horse who won't behave and stand quietly...but generally, it's just one of those things that happens.

I guess I'm not impressed that it wasn't acknowledged more forwardly....I mean, if he thought the horse was lame when he showed up the first time, did he mention it?

The fact that both fronts now seem sore? Maybe it wasn't a hot nail at all.....

[TBrescue]

I think that the frequency of hot nails goes up with a horse who won't behave and stand quietly...but generally, it's just one of those things that happens.

I guess I'm not impressed that it wasn't acknowledged more forwardly....I mean, if he thought the horse was lame when he showed up the first time, did he mention it?

The fact that both fronts now seem sore? Maybe it wasn't a hot nail at all.....


One hot nail is confirmed, because there was blood coming out the nail hole when it was pulled. The other foot I am not sure if it bled or not, but he walked away from the xties visbily lame in front, both sides and not wanting to move. Farrier tried to say horse had thin soles and that is why he was off. I have never seen a horse bleed from shoeing unless it was hot nailed.

[abbydp]

He could have quicked him. That can draw blood.

You guys jinxed me!!!!!!!!!!!!! My boy was shod a week ago today, and first thing this morning he was lame :(. Still sticking up for my farrier, though. More likely a bruise. Have to admit as soon as I saw him I thought of this thread.

[Tom Stovall]

TBrescue in gray

One hot nail is confirmed, because there was blood coming out the nail hole when it was pulled.

How long between the time the horse was shod and the shoes were pulled?

If it's a stick, a pain response is often evident and blood is usually immediately visible because sensitive tissue has been invaded; a close nail is one driven close to, but not into, sensitive tissue. A close nail usually takes 12-72 hours to become "hot" (painful) because it's the product of inflammation, not invasion.

When a farrier sticks a horse, he most always knows it happens when it happens. In the usual order of business, the nail is pulled, a little antiseptic is dribbled into the nail hole, and the nail re-driven or left out, as determined by the severity of the stick. The horse seldom takes a lame step but it's incumbent on him inform the horse's connections that sensitive tissue has been invaded because of the danger of tetanus. The mea culpa is usually something like, "Damn! I stuck your horse: Is he up on his shots?"

Close nails are a whole 'nuther ballgame. There's no blood and the horse doesn't always act sore when nailed up and clinched off - but in a matter of hours or days, they're swinging leg lame. A stick is usually an easy fix, but a close nail can take more time for recovery than it did to become manifest.

The other foot I am not sure if it bled or not, but he walked away from the xties visbily lame in front, both sides and not wanting to move.

They don't have to bleed to be sore, but it's hard to stick one without causing a leak. Blood on the clinch tongs and pooling on the barn floor is a dead giveaway.

Farrier tried to say horse had thin soles and that is why he was off. I have never seen a horse bleed from shoeing unless it was hot nailed.

If thin soles are made even thinner by a farrier's knife, their protective properties are compromised and the horse can become as sore as a bygod.

Most of the time, sticking a horse is no big deal and does not call for effusive apologies, but ethics demand that the horse's connections must be informed of the stick because of the possibility of tetanus. If a farrier sticks a horse, there's no disgrace in letting the client know about it; if a farrier sticks a horse and keeps shut in order to save his ego, whether the horse develops tetanus or not, he's damn sure in the wrong business.

[Rick Burten]

You guys jinxed me!!!!!!!!!!!!! My boy was shod a week ago today, and first thing this morning he was lame :(.

Generally speaking, if a horse has been sound for seven days post shoeing and then goes lame, the shoeing/nailing may not and usually is not, the culprit. Still, I hope you touched base with your farrier and I hope that s/he offered some advise and to return to check the problem out if necessary.

[abbydp]

I don't think it was the shoeing or nailing, just coincidence! I started soaking yesterday, he was better for a while yesterday afternoon. This morning, pretty much 3-legged lame. The vet pulled the shoe 1st thing this morning with the farrier's blessing. As she started checking, the shoe and foot were moist on the lateral side. With the smallest amount of paring, a scrape or 2, right along the nail holes, a bloody abcess opened at the 3rd/4th nail holes. Not sure if it came from the nail or was in between and took the path of least resistance. Doesn't matter, sh*& happens. He has been soaked twice today and in his very very deeply bedded stall. He is an absolute weinie with no shoes (very flat feet so I can't blame him) so my farrier is coming out tomorrow to see if he can put the shoe back on. We are debating as we don't want to close it up and it's right under the shoe, BUT he will be lame as long as there is no shoe, abcess or not, and the farrier doesn't want him to tear up his foot. We will see how he feels tomorrow. He was much better tonight.

Long story short - quickest way to get rid of an abcess - 1 st 24 hours, soak, give banamine in the am, 9 hrs later, turn into small lot only long enough to clean his stall, thinking he hurts so he won't move much, watch him and his buddy race rear buck and generally act like fools not letting you stop them and generally laughing at you in their horsey way, see him soooo much worse in the am and immediately pop the abcess. Total time from slightly off to open abcess 24 hours!