When are you a professional??

[Fast First]

Hey There!

I have a horse farm in NC and I have been a professional for about 20 years. There is a young woman in the area that teaches lessons, sells and trains horses and has her own website but still competes as a amatuer. I have beginner students that have to compete againest her at recognized shows.

In my opinion, if you teach, train and sell horses and make money doing so.....you are a professional!

What is you're opinion??? Is she afraid to step up and ride against other professional riders so it makes her look good score wise??

In my opinion, step up to the plate and let the ones new to this have a chance!

[2ndyrgal]

Yes she is. Does she place higher than your students? If she does, then I'd probably call her out on it. If not? Hand her (and her students) one of your business cards.

[ThirdCharm]

Yeah, sounds like someone needs to say "Oh, gee, how silly of the secretary to put you in the amateur class, hon, you better get them to put you in Open since you're a professional!"

Usually not an issue in eventing, though... I'm in NC and I almost never see "Amateur" classes at rec events around here......!

Jennifer

[eventrider]

Heidi,

You need to look more carefully at the requirements for divisions. To ride in a "rider" division, you cannot have ridden at a certain level higher than you are competing in the previous 24 months. If this person you are calling a professional has not broken this rule, then they are within their right to show in a rider division. Sounds like sour grapes to me. Technically, Teddy was the last horse I ran at the advanced level, which was in 2005, so I could ride in an Advanced rider division, if that was offered.....or even Prelim rider if that was offered. There is not a division for "professional" riders and "amateur" riders.

Christan

[oldenmare]

Also - to the OP - are you referring to recognized events or recognized dressage shows - because the classes may be listed differently (many rec. dressage shows have an amateur division - may not be separate classes but may have separate high point awards - each show is a little different, of course). This may be creating some confusion.

FWIW - we have a professional here that shows AA at recognized shows - and she still finishes last in all of her classes............. and yet she still has students. She usually blames it on the judges b/c she doesn't ride a warmblood..... and so on and so forth.

Still - not very sporting of her, is it???

[CarolinaGirl]

Heidi,

You need to look more carefully at the requirements for divisions. To ride in a "rider" division, you cannot have ridden at a certain level higher than you are competing in the previous 24 months. If this person you are calling a professional has not broken this rule, then they are within their right to show in a rider division. Sounds like sour grapes to me. Technically, Teddy was the last horse I ran at the advanced level, which was in 2005, so I could ride in an Advanced rider division, if that was offered.....or even Prelim rider if that was offered. There is not a division for "professional" riders and "amateur" riders.

Christan

I don't really consider myself a professional.. but I haven't competed really AT ALL in three years. I competed at a HT this past weekend where when they put up the entries list they had me listed under BNR. I actually emailed them and said I realize I qualify for the division, but I didn't think it was fair because in the past I'd competed at training and had a go or two at prelim before. I've been riding since then.. but my last recognized event was in 2005 at Novice. I never stopped riding, still been taking lessons, and have put some training on a few horses. I just didn't feel it was right to be in the same division as people who were new to the game (or kids), but I guess I like to be fair.

[SMMP]

When I saw the title of this thread, I thought I had inadvertently gone to the hunter forum. :lol::lol:

[Janet]

The RIDER division has NOTHING To do with whether you are a professional or an amateur.

The RIDER division is only about what level you have completed in the last two years.

While it is possible to have an "Amateur" division, they are VERY few and far between.

Really, the only place "Amateur" comes into play in eventing is in the "Amateur" sections of the "Leaderboard".

[GotSpots]

There is not a division for "professional" riders and "amateur" riders.
Christan Not quite. As part of the re-design of the entry forms a couple of years ago, the amateur division was added as an option for organizers. Many horse trials do offer it if there is sufficient demand. The definition of an amateur is in the rules - this year it was for riders who made less than 2500$ from horse-related activities. Next year, USEF rules require that eventing comply with the same amateur rules as apply to the other disciplines, and thus amateurs will not be permitted to make money for teaching, training, or riding horses (read the USEF rules for complete definition).

However, amateurs are not required to enter that division -- and often organizers won't hold an amateur division even if they have enough amateurs to fill one. You can always enter an Open division if you prefer even if you qualify for a restricted division.

[eventrider]

GotSpots,

Thank you for the info about next year. This still means that someone can enter a rider division based on the level they have competed within the last 24 months. Because they will now offer amateur and pro divisions does not change the rules regarding the rider divisions for this year. Will the requirements for "rider" division change next year when they will designate am vs. pro?

Christan

[Janet]

Christian,

They already have an "amateur" division "on the books, though it rarely fills, so is rarely seen. That doesn't change. If you look on the 2008 entry blank, there IS a place to check for "Amateur"

What changes is that, through this year, Eventing had a special "version" of amateur (only applies to Eventing) allowing up to $2500 "pro" income (intended to cover working students or people who teach at "riding only" summer camps). That goes away Dec 1, and Eventing will use the same amateur definition as all the other disciplines.

There is no change to the definition of "Rider", but there is a small change in the definition for "Horse".

You can see an advance copy of the 2009 Eventing rules here (though there MAY be other "extraordinary" rule changes between now and then).
http://www.usef.org/documents/ruleBook/2009/12-EV.pdf

As usual, the definitions of the divisions are in Appendix 3, along with the modifications to the qualification criteria.

I got to see you ride this weekend, though I did not get a chance to introduce myself.

[tbeventer]

This is a messy, messy subject!
Directly out of the rulebook:

SUBCHA PTE R 13-B AMATEU RS AND PROFESI ONALS
GR1306 Amateur Status
1. Regardless of one’s equestrian skills and/or accomplishments, a person is an amateur for all
competitions conducted under Federation rules who after his/her 18th birthday, as defined in
GR101, has not engaged in any of the following activities which would make him/her a professional.
Exception: In the Dressage Division, individuals are only eligible to compete as amateurs
from the beginning of the calendar year in which they reach age 22. See DR119.3. In the
Reining Division, amateur status will be determined per Reining Division, amateur status will be
determined per Reining Division Non Pro Conditions; see amateur status RN105. (For professionals
wishing to be re-classified as amateurs, see GR1308.2.a):
a. Accepts remuneration for riding, driving, showing in halter/in hand, training, schooling or
conducting clinics or seminars.
b. Accepts remuneration for giving instructions in equitation or horse training. (Persons acting as
counselors at summer camps, who are not hired in the exclusive capacity of riding instructors
are excluded and persons giving instruction and training to the handicapped).
c. Accepts remuneration for employment in other capacity (e.g., secretary, bookkeeper, veterinarian,
groom, farrier) and gives instruction, rides, drives, shows in halter/in hand, trains or
schools horses, other than horses actually owned or leased by him/her, when his/her employer
or a member of the family of said employer or a corporation which a member of his/her family
controls, owns, boards or trains said horses.
d. Accepts remuneration for the use of his or her name, photograph or other form of personal
association as a horseman in connection with any advertisement or article to be sold.
e. Accepts prize money in equitation or showmanship classes. Prize money may be accepted by
amateur riders in Dressage.
f. Rides, drives or shows in halter/in hand in competitions, any horse for which he/she or a
member of his/her family or a corporation which a member of his/her family controls, receives
remuneration for boarding, training, riding, driving or showing in halter/in hand.
g. Gives instruction to any person or rides, drives or shows in halter/in hand in competitions any
horse, for which activity another person in his/her family or corporation which a member of his/
her family controls will receive remuneration for the activity.
h. Accepts remuneration, as defined in GR808.2.d, for selling horses/ponies, acts as a paid
agent in the sale of horses/ponies or takes horses/ponies on consignment for the purpose of
sale or training other than those owned wholly or in part by him/her or by a member of his/her
family or farm/ranch/syndicate/partnership/corporation which he/she or a member of his/her
family controls.
i. For Amateurs in Jumper Sections, see JP117.
j. For Amateurs in Eventing sections, see EV Appendix 3 - Participation in Horse Trials.
2. The following activities do not affect the amateur status of a person who is otherwise
qualified:
a. The writing of books or articles pertaining to horses.
b. Accepting remuneration for officiating as a judge, steward, technical delegate, course
designer, announcer or participating as a TV commentator, or accepting bona fide remuneration
for services as a veterinarian, groom, farrier, tack shop operator or breeder, or for accepting
bona fide remuneration for boarding services.
c. Accepting reimbursement for expenses without profit.
d. Accepting a token of appreciation, other than money, for riding, driving or showing in
halter/in hand. (Note: Horse board, prize money, partial support or objects of more than $300
are considered remuneration, not small tokens of appreciation). (Also note: accepting any
amount of money, whether more or less than $300, is considered remuneration.) Prize money
won by an amateur-owner rider/driver/handler in any class (other than equitation or showmanship)
is not considered remuneration.
e. Having the occupation of veterinarian, groom, farrier or owning a tack shop or breeding
or boarding stable in itself, does not affect the amateur status of a person who is otherwise
qualified.
f. Any person who is serving an internship for college credit through his/her respective, accredited
college program, and who has never held professional status, can accept reimbursementfor expenses without profit.

Now... I do recall there being something about making under $2500 in the current year and year prior. I don't see it in this section, but I ran into the whole "are you an amateur" issue this year at a dressage show, because I do have an ammy lisence, although I recently began to teach local pony clubs for a pittance. Dressage states specifically ANY type of renumeration, where the eventing rules mentioned this $2500 cap. I'm not sure if people remember, but it also caused a lot of issues at the beginning of '08, because the rules discussed making over $2500 in prizes OR prize money (yes AEC's were mentioned), so that would mean if a competitor won $2501 in prize money or prizes, they would be a pro.
Like I said, it's VERy messy, so I hope the USEF and USEA can sort the whole lot out before '09! Maybe keep it straight across the board, rather than change from discipline to discipline.

On another note... Rider and Amateur are totally different divisions and here on the West Coast we have amateur divisions through training and then at prelim it's normal to see a Prelim rider division, although most pros are *kind* enough to enter the open division. These rules are far more black and white than the ammy vs. pro rules.

[purplnurpl]

It's not a messy subject at all.

If you make more then 2500 bucks annually in the equestrian world (teaching/training) or have sponsors you don't enter in Amateur divisions.
point blank.

If there is any question AT ALL about the above, just don't enter Am.

Really the only place it may play a part is on the Nutrena Leaderboard or at the AECs.

[pegasusmom]

If you make more then 2500 bucks annually in the equestrian world (teaching/training) or have sponsors you don't enter in Amateur divisions.
point blank.



Until 2009 - then refer to Janet's posting. We almost NEVER get requests for an "amatuer" division here.

[Janet]

This is a messy, messy subject!
Directly out of the rulebook:

SUBCHA PTE R 13-B AMATEU RS AND PROFESI ONALS
GR1306 Amateur Status
...

j. For Amateurs in Eventing sections, see EV Appendix 3 - Participation in Horse Trials.
...
Now... I do recall there being something about making under $2500 in the current year and year prior. That is what the reference to "EV Appendix 3" is about.
I don't see it in this section,
it is in appendix 3, but it goes away Dec 1,
Like I said, it's VERy messy, so I hope the USEF and USEA can sort the whole lot out before '09! Maybe keep it straight across the board, rather than change from discipline to discipline. You can see the 2009 rules on line.

Click on rules, then rulebook, then 2009.

[tbeventer]

That is what the reference to "EV Appendix 3" is about.

it is in appendix 3, but it goes away Dec 1,
You can see the 2009 rules on line.

Click on rules, then rulebook, then 2009.


When I had to deal with the crossover from eventing to dressage this summer, even the USEF and USDF where somewhat perplexed as to the difference between ami vs. pro status, because it wasn't consistent across the board. This was in July and the new rulebook wasn't out...yet, although I'd heard they were doing away with the $2500 rule Dec. 1, anyway. Sucks to have to go pro because you make $100 a month.

[Innocent Bystander]

Sucks to have to go pro because you make $100 a month. Tbeventer, I'm not picking on you specifically, but your comment reflects an attitude that is a pet peeve of mine. Anyone who offers up their services as an instructor, trainer, rider, etc. in our sport, no matter how much money they make, should view themselves as a professional, act like one, and accept the consequences of their actions. Eventing is too high-risk of a sport to do otherwise.

[eventer_mi]

While in theory I agree with the OP, the reality is that every division, regardless of "ammy" or "pro" is pretty darn competitive. Yes, in the "Open" divisions you will probably find yourself competing against the local pros, BN or LN, on their greenies and such, the "Rider" divisions are usually filled with the people on their uber-fancy WBs that have been in full-time training with THEIR local pro, BN or LN. Six to one, half a dozen to the other. I always enter "Rider" because I haven't competed higher than Novice in the past 6 years, I am truly an ammy (meaning I make no income or receive services from my horses, training, lessons, or otherwise), but I could just as easily enter "Open" and probably still place about the same.

I do agree that in the spirit of the rules, if you make any income whatsoever from horses/lessons/training, you SHOULD enter the "Open" division, regardless if your name is Jane Doe or Gina Fiore, but people who don't aren't breaking any rules. I know of one person who technically could compete in the Rider divisions, but doesn't because she says that she is a trainer, and makes her living off of training/lessons, so she enters the Open division. That really gets my respect. It also keeps her from competing against her students, which really wouldn't be that fair to them, although it's well within the rules.

The only person I know of that is breaking a "rule" is this one trainer who makes her living off of teaching lessons and training horses, yet still has listed on her Rider record with the USEA "Amateur". While it's not bothering anyone that I know about, I should be mightily peeved if I found myself competing against her in an Ammy division, say, a championship or something. If this is YOU, please, be an adult and contact the USEA and tell them you're no longer an ammy!

So, I guess, as long as you play by the rules, then you're okay. Nobody can stop you and nobody can complain. Really, what's the difference between the Pro on the fancy, but green bean, and the local ammy, who takes three lessons a week and has her fancy horse in full-time training? Not much, when it comes down to the scores.

[ThirdCharm]

Okay, I was wondering where y'all were finding all these Ammy classes at events! As far as Rider classes, read the rulebook, if they're eligible they are eligible. It doesn't matter if they make money teaching lessons. Sheesh. I really don't think there is much if any advantage to riding in a Rider division, you get plenty of folks on packers, or Novice points-chasers, or whatever. And, apparently sometimes even if you put down Open, the organizer may stick you in a Rider division if they're trying to divvy up divisions evenly and they need the numbers, and one might not notice in time to get them to change it...... I notice the OP competed NR twice last year according to the USEA, so that is surely the case.....

Jennifer

[Kementari]

Tbeventer, I'm not picking on you specifically, but your comment reflects an attitude that is a pet peeve of mine. Anyone who offers up their services as an instructor, trainer, rider, etc. in our sport, no matter how much money they make, should view themselves as a professional, act like one, and accept the consequences of their actions. Eventing is too high-risk of a sport to do otherwise.

I started/trained a greenie last year/earlier this year, western, to be a trail horse. I fail to see what on earth that has to do with eventing being a high-risk sport, or how my calling myself a pro would matter in that vein. I'm all about recognizing and alleviating those risks, but the above is a HELL of leap...

(For the record, I usually say I'm a semi-pro, think the whole ammie/pro split for showing is silly, and didn't hold an ammie card for that reason even when I DID qualify for one...)

[tlw]

So, if I'm understanding all this correctly, a person who makes $20,000 per year giving lessons to BN, N and T level students and who rode A 10 years ago but has not shown above T in the last 5 years would be able to show in a TR class? But, if that person shows at A now but wants to take a client's greenie at Training he/she would have to be in the OT or TH? I don't have a problem with this but I suspect that, for the most part, folks generally show in an appropriate category. Public opinion and ridicule are valuable tools in insuring that people follow the rules. That's not to say that some people just don't understand fair play and proper etiquette but. . . .

[caevent]

Showing here out west, we have amateur divisions at every show, it seems. So if you compete at intermediate on one horse, and novice on another, you can still ride in the novice amateur division instead of open novice or novice rider.

[eventer_mi]

So, if I'm understanding all this correctly, a person who makes $20,000 per year giving lessons to BN, N and T level students and who rode A 10 years ago but has not shown above T in the last 5 years would be able to show in a TR class? But, if that person shows at A now but wants to take a client's greenie at Training he/she would have to be in the OT or TH? I don't have a problem with this but I suspect that, for the most part, folks generally show in an appropriate category. Public opinion and ridicule are valuable tools in insuring that people follow the rules. That's not to say that some people just don't understand fair play and proper etiquette but. . . .

Not only can the person making $20k a year show in the rider division, but conceivably someone like Karen O'Connor could show in the Beginner Novice Rider division if she, say, took two years off from showing to have a baby or something and decided to get back into it. Not that she would, but she COULD.

I wish we had a point system - once you gain enough points, you are requred to move into the "open" divisions. That would keep out the professional ammy point chasers as well as anyone else who continously cleans up in the rider divisions - once you get so many points on that particular horse, you need to change divisions. But, that would probably require too much work for the already overworked show secretaries, so it won't happen any time soon.

[canterlope]

I started/trained a greenie last year/earlier this year, western, to be a trail horse. I fail to see what on earth that has to do with eventing being a high-risk sport, or how my calling myself a pro would matter in that vein. I'm all about recognizing and alleviating those risks, but the above is a HELL of leap...

(For the record, I usually say I'm a semi-pro, think the whole ammie/pro split for showing is silly, and didn't hold an ammie card for that reason even when I DID qualify for one...)Kementari, I think what IB is trying to say is that being a professional isn't about how much money is made, but rather a mind-set that should be adopted when a person puts themselves out as a professional.

All too often in our sport you can go to an event and see "professional" riders, trainers, or coaches who make you wonder what the heck they are doing out there. In many cases, these people are offering their services to make ends meet and don't truly view themselves as professionals. They only call themselves professionals because that is what the rule book says they must do when they accept money in exchange for riding, coaching, or training services.

In a high-risk sport like Eventing, having professionals who don't view themselves as professionals is a less than ideal situation. There is too much at stake and anyone who places themselves in the position where the lives of their students and horses are at risk every time they set foot on cross country must look at their "professional" status as more than just a way to earn a few extra dollars. Certainly the USEA has recognized this fact because this is one of the main reasons why it instituted the Instructor Certification Program.

FWIW, I don't think IB was talking about a situation such as yours. You did not put yourself out as an Eventing Professional. Unfortunately, it isn't possible for the USEF to make exceptions as to professional status in each of its recognized disciplines, so people like you get caught in a less than ideal situation. However, there is a bit of individual responsibility that must be taken into consideration. Anyone who makes the personal decision to accept money in return for riding, training, or coaching services must also be willing to accept the fact that the USEF will classify them as a professional. If they don't want such a distinction, they should not engage in such activities.

[pegasusmom]

We went through this last year when my son was offered a sponsorship from an equine theraputic saddle pad company. After researching the whole deal, we came to the conclusion that in eventing it would almost never have any effect on what divisions he rides in (or requests to ride in). People almost always do the right thing, and for the few that don't - I believe what goes round comes round.

I don't have the numbers for all of our events last year, but I know for at least two of them we had almost no requests to be placed in an amateur division.

[WakeRider]

I must say that i am truly disappointed in the eventing community for the direction which this thread has taken. Since when have we started this ol' tried and true 'hunter-esk' debate?????

For my students and I, it is an honor to compete against the best of the best! There are not many sports where one can compete at their own comfort level, testing their own abilities in competition with past and present Olympians. Remember when finishing the event was good enough??? (note society's materialistic trend!!!) Eventing is a sport where YOU and YOUR HORSE compete as a team against the course and the challenges presented.... not a ribbon competition... i mean come on now, how much $$$ did you spend in the event for a .50 ribbon? I instill this in even my youngest students, who are excited to go in the ring after their idols! Yes, this may sometimes mean no ribbon, but it is the experience that really matters... the character building. And certainly there are smaller and local events where those three phases are much easier to manage, and getting your ribbon is almost certain. If you lose the fun of just completing the event, you lose the true essence of an event. (and mine as well go back to the hunter ring... where ribbons are a'plenty :winkgrin:)

As far as championships go.... if you are competing in the championship division at your designated level... YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO BE COMPETING AGAINST THE BEST OF THE BEST!!!!!! Regardless of the technicalities of rider/horse/open (which for 90% of the time are followed...) you have gotten that far and should be challenged to put forth your best effort. And, surprisingly these pro's are beatable. Who'da thunk, right? :eek:

So, while yes it is annoying that this said trainer doesn't compete in open.... who cares? there are much more pressing issues... keep things fun! (and put in those extra practices to beat her!)

[Kementari]

FWIW, I don't think IB was talking about a situation such as yours. You did not put yourself out as an Eventing Professional. Unfortunately, it isn't possible for the USEF to make exceptions as to professional status in each of its recognized disciplines, so people like you get caught in a less than ideal situation. However, there is a bit of individual responsibility that must be taken into consideration. Anyone who makes the personal decision to accept money in return for riding, training, or coaching services must also be willing to accept the fact that the USEF will classify them as a professional. If they don't want such a distinction, they should not engage in such activities.

I know (well, I hope so, anyhow). ;) I was just pointing out that painting with a broad brush is rarely accurate (which is, in fact, why there are so many issues with the ammie rule to start with). :yes: FWIW, I really don't care that I'm considered a pro (which is not to say that I don't follow the rules - I've not entered an amateur class that I can recall, ever, and certainly wouldn't start now!), for the reasons WakeRider so nicely lays out.

I do understand (and support) the point that professionals need to understand the responsibility and status they are have achieved (or should have achieved, if they are going to call themselves pros) within their own area of expertise. I would certainly not call myself an eventing pro (!), but strive to comport myself in a professional manner in those areas where I do make money. :yes:

[Fast First]

Hey Guys1

Sorry it took me so long to get back to this thread! I have been busy doing my job! Riding 8 horses a day plus my 25 horses at the farm including the BEST stallion in the world!

I guess what I am saying is that:

I feel that if you are a professional (someone who makes $ for lessons and training) I have an issue with someone competing as a person who has only competed to the level of competition when you have competed WAY above that. We need more people in the sport! Give them ONE division where they can compete against people at the same ability level.

The USEF has a great description of a professional and if you make money at it( over 1500.00) You are a PROFESSIONAL!

I just do not see the need to compete against people that are below your level of experience. I feel it is just a way to make yourself look good.


I feel the amateur rider NEEDS a division of their own. There are other divisions a person who is a professional can compete in, OPEN and HORSE. I consider the RIDER division an amateur division, one in which they have not competed above that level.

Sorry that offends some.

Step up, admit who you are, and compete against the BIG boys (an girls) Stop being low down and competing in divisions that you are more than well qualified to compete at.

I would be embarrassed to win against people who have no experience above that level. I think it is a low down way to make yourself look good.

Just my humble opinion.

Just give these guys one division they have a fair chance at, one in which everyone is on the same field of play


PROMOTE THE SPORT OF EVENTING!

[eventer_mi]

Step up, admit who you are, and compete against the BIG boys (an girls) Stop being low down and competing in divisions that you are more than well qualified to compete at.

I would be embarrassed to win against people who have no experience above that level. I think it is a low down way to make yourself look good.
!

Um, the trainer in question has only competed one level above that which she is showing right now, and apparently that was years ago, according to the USEA. So how is she competing waaay above her level?

Also, according to the USEA, you yourself have competed in the Rider divisions twice in 2007 - once at Lumber River, and once at Five Points. Why did you compete in the rider division when you are a professional yourself, taking students to events/HTs? You have every right to compete in the Novice division, because the rules state that you are eligible, just like the trainer whom you are questioning.

I'm not trying to be argumentive, just wondering what the problem is since you are doing the same thing you are accusing the trainer of doing. I agree with you that we could use a system where all is equal, but as in any sport, money and talent play a huge factor in the results. Some of us have money and talent in spades, some of us (like me!) don't have either, so the playing field will never be equal. I guess the answer is to only enter a division where you feel truly comfortable and possibly even a little bored, so that you know you can bring it on when it really counts - your students included.

[eventrider]

I agree with you Heidi, but now I am a little confused about your point. Of the 3 events you competed in last year, 2 of them you rode in Novice Rider, one in Open Novice. Are you saying that anyone who takes money in exchange for lessons, boarding, or selling should not ride in a Rider division, or only if you have ridden at a high level, you should not ride in a Rider division, even if you are eligible? I agree with the spirit of the divisions, but I want to make sure I am not missing your point,

Christan

[Madeline]

I think Fast First has the right idea.

If you take money for sponsorship, riding, or training horses or riders, you are a pro.

If you don't, you are an amateur.

If you take the $ and show as an amateur, you are a scumbag.

How hard is that to understand?

[purplnurpl]

In many cases, these people are offering their services to make ends meet and don't truly view themselves as professionals. They only call themselves professionals because that is what the rule book says they must do when they accept money in exchange for riding, coaching, or training services.



This is very true.
In my case, I'm now a professional because I've been forced to beg for some small sponsorships to help out with feed, equipment, vet care, etc. And I ride back yard/trail horses in an equestrian community. Along with my 9-5 weekday job. Just to make ends meet.

So I'm therefore an Eventing Pro? Guess so.
Do I care? Not so much. I just enter in the Senior or Open divisions. The only time it will really effect me is on the Leaderboard, which I'm would not be on anyway, and when I decide to go Advanced. Usually there is an AA division along with an OA. AA would be nice. But in the end, just getting to circle the A on an entry form is enough to make my heart skip a beat..

Kinda sucked this year though because I cannot apply for any of the Area Scholarships. Open to Amateurs only. That was a kick in the gut.

A Point system would be spectacular.

[subk]

And then you have people like me...

I'm an amatuer that's done the upper levels, trained and sold my own horses, and I don't take money when I ride and school other people's horses--something I do a couple times a week. For me it's not about the ability to BE a professional, just that the liabilty really isn't worth it right now.

[Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl]

I am confused, and amused.

I think it is hilarious that Christan is currently eligible to ride Novice Rider and I am not, but that doesn't have a thing in the world to do with being a professional- or amateur.

Given that these days we check boxes for what we are eligible for, and organizers place us in divisions as suits their schedules, I can't get too riled up about what division someone shows in. When I am crowned Queen of all I Survey, I may institute a point system, but until then, riding and training better than others, then having luck on my side, is my best strategy...

I did mean to ask what the story is with Bruce Davidson being on the Ammy Leaderboard, but I gather he has gone ammy... Is that a gentler word for semi-retiring??

[Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl]

To be fair, the OP did not specify that her beef is with eventrider - if there is a young pro, over 21, who is in fact showing in an Amateur division, that is wrong, and I agree that she should act ethically and not compete as an ammy.

Hats off to organizers for sorting through the options and grouping us as best they can!

[GotSpots]

This is very true.
The only time it will really effect me is on the Leaderboard, which I'm would not be on anyway, and when I decide to go Advanced. Usually there is an AA division along with an OA. AA would be nice. But in the end, just getting to circle the A on an entry form is enough to make my heart skip a beat. Hate to burst your bubble, but as you move up, there are usually FEWER amateur divisions, not more of them. At Preliminary, I'm finding it highly unusual in Area II to have either an amateur or a rider division - I'm getting used to being in a division with two of Boyd's horses, one of Philip's, Jan, Karen, and Will. I don't think I've ever seen an Advanced amateur division - there just aren't enough ammys at that level to merit it.

[eventrider]

I think maybe I have not stated my point correctly, or maybe I am misunderstanding.
My point of this whole thread is that while we may perceive that someone we consider a "pro" should not ride in a "rider" division, that person is perfectly entitled to if they qualify for the division. There is nothing in the rules that states that a "rider" division is for ammy's and an "open" division is for pros. That is a conception some people have in their minds, but it is in fact, not a rule.
Actually Jeannette, I am not eligible for a Novice Rider division (sorry!!), and I have not actually ridden in a "rider" division since I was under 13 years old, but my point was that if I become eligible at some point, I am not breaking any rules by riding in that divsion. It has nothing to do with being a pro. If we do not like that fact, then maybe the rules need to be changed.
The OP was not refering to me in her original post, nor is this thread about me in anyway. I am just trying to understand the logic and direction of this post/thread. If we are all really concerned about there being a "pro" and "amateur" division, then we should do something about it. If not, then this seems like a bit of sour grapes that the OP's students were beat by a local rider. If it comes down to the ethics of it all, then why is the OP riding in a "rider" division while claiming to be a pro? I guess I am missing the point here, but I would like to know what it is, because it seems we may need some changes in our division qualifications. I don't think there is anything wrong with the OP riding in a rider division even if she is a pro, because the rules say she is qualified to do so and it is her choice, or rather, the organizers choice to put her there.
What I am getting out of all of this is that most people feel like there should be different rules for divisions, and amateurs should have their own division at every event where no "pro" can enter, regardless of their riding ability or level they have competed. Should we change the requirements?

[Janet]

I think it is hilarious that Christan is currently eligible to ride Novice Rider and I am not, but that doesn't have a thing in the world to do with being a professional- or amateur.
Jeanette,
This whole thing is very confusing. If Christian IS the rider in question, she was competing at Prelim last weekend. And there were only 10 riders at Prelim, so it is highly unlikely there was a "Prelim Rider" or "Prelim Amateur" division (don't have the list with me at the moment, but I am pretty sure it was only Open Prelim) and I do not know if the results are on line yet. So unless this is her first Prelim in 2 years, she wouldn't be in "Novice Rider" anyway.

[eventrider]

I am not the rider in question. I don't live anywhere near the OP, nor do I compete against her students. I also haven't ridden in a "rider" division in over 15 years that I can remember. I have just been posting on this thread because I am confused about what the problem is with someone (I don't know who that someone is even) riding in a division they are eligible for. Please do not think that I have any problem with the OP, or anyone associated with her, etc. I don't think she has any problem with me either ;). It is all friendly discussion.

Christan

[ThirdCharm]

This _is_ kind of silly. If the problem is with a lower-level pro who has not competed at more than two Training events in the last two years (or whatever the current rule is), competing in a Novice Rider division, well sorry that is the rules and the OP herself took advantage of it by competing in Novice Rider despite being a professional last year. If the OP has since revised her definition of sporting behavior and wishes her students to now have a division free of paid competition, she could certainly petition show management for an AMATEUR division and then they will only have to worry about the trust-fund kids, the golf widows, the professionals' spouses and kids, and the upper level ammies on their green horses. Sheesh. Last time I rode in a Rider division I got beat by a 4* riders kid. Not a huge advantage there.

Or, petition USEA to create a "Limit" division based on points.

Jennifer

[Ajierene]

Personally, I think the division split in the eventing world is much better than the dressage or hunter world and they may do well to adopt it.

As mentioned by previous posters, 'pro' can mean very different things and just because someone is a pro does not mean they are automatically going to win the class.

When I first started eventing, I had already spent a lot of time riding and training horses in the hunter world and jumping over 3'. I have always entered the 'horse' division because I always felt that meant I was competing against other people that were schooled riders on more green horses. It had nothing to do with 'being fair to the competition' and everything to do with placing myself and my horse against competition that would be closest to our level.

My very first event was in elementary, due to some monster related issues about fancy stadium jumps and cross country jumps (the logs were ok, the hay was out to get her and she was going nowhere near it). In Elementary horse, I met other adults doing similar things for similar reasons. One woman had a pin in her ankle from her horse throwing her and she loved eventing but if she tried anything higher, her horse's brains would leak out his ears. Another adult was a fellow student of my trainers with a minor bucking/running off setback. The elementary rider division held mostly the 10 and under crowd.

Now that I am in Novice Horse, I can say I have competed directly against a local big name professional. Did I feel slighted because a pro was in my division? Absolutely not. As a matter of fact, I beat him by more than 10 points in dressage. His test was directly before mine and if that was not that horse's first event, it sure looked like it was. Everything was the boogey monster - I am suprised he scored as low as he did in dressage. I was the better horse/rider on that day. If I were against Karen O'Connor, Bruce Davidson or Phillip Dutton - I would not be upset. They would be very likely on some green young horse.

On the other hand, my trainer, who would be eligible for Novice Rider since she has not competed in more than two years, may enter Novice Rider at a competition. She may do it because she feels 'rusty', but she is on a schooled horse. I would not be annoyed by that either. Maybe she feels that is her level. She may feel the horse is to well schooled to compete against other true Novice Horse entries.

As far as the trainer that went Novice Rider - maybe she checks that box out of habit. Maybe she feels that is where her closest competition is. Maybe she picked that division to avoid being in the same division as one or more students. I would have to reread the original post. I do not remember if she had other students in that division or not.

I like this system better than 'pro' and 'ammy' because it helps define more what you are doing. Whether or not you are a pro - are you a good rider on a horse green to that division or are you a green rider on a schooled horse? You could be a pro as in an assistant trainer and be doing Prelim for the first time on a schooled horse. You would be Prelim rider. If the hunter and dressage world did things this way, they would separate the people who are learning the ropes on a schooled horse and the people who know the ropes (whether they make a living from training horses or have just ridden their whole lives) on a more green horse.

[eventer_mi]

This _is_ kind of silly. If the problem is with a lower-level pro who has not competed at more than two Training events in the last two years (or whatever the current rule is), competing in a Novice Rider division, well sorry that is the rules and the OP herself took advantage of it by competing in Novice Rider despite being a professional last year. If the OP has since revised her definition of sporting behavior and wishes her students to now have a division free of paid competition, she could certainly petition show management for an AMATEUR division and then they will only have to worry about the trust-fund kids, the golf widows, the professionals' spouses and kids, and the upper level ammies on their green horses. Sheesh.

AMEN, sister! Like I mentioned in an earlier post, you either compete against BNTs and their greenies (or not-so-greenies, depending on the division) or against the uber-wealthy/talented/etc on their super-fancy horses. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Last year, I repeatedly got 2nd place to a local pro's wife, riding in the Rider division (which she was perfectly entitled to do), on her fancy WB. Sigh.

The biggest problem I have with this whole thread is the hyposcrisy of it all. The OP has a problem with a local pro riding in the Rider division, supposedly beating the pants off the OP's own students. OP says that local pro should ride in the Open division, because she is a "pro". OP has ridden this past year, in 2 of the three events she has entered, in the Rider division herself.

Hello pot? This is kettle. :confused:

[barnrat]

It is amazing to me that people are so concerned about this when there are so many real problems in the world today! It does not bother me when I compete against pros on green horses... WHO CARES??? I always aim for a personal best. I feel like one of the main problems in America right now is that the nation is full of winers and people that have a false sense of entitlement. Showing is not only about ribbons and points. Besides... the entries at horse trials are shrinking because of the economy, so this could become a mute point in the near future.

[CarrieK]

It is amazing to me that people are so concerned about this when there are so many real problems in the world today!
Ah, but this isn't a "discuss all the real problems in the world today" forum or even a "discuss equine problems that are real and not petty or superfluous."

And when you say in all caps "who cares" well, obviously the OP does on some level or the topic wouldn't have been started. And, in my experience, questions of shamateurs and the rules regarding professional status concern horse people in all breeds and all disciplines.

[Janet]

And, in my experience, questions of shamateurs and the rules regarding professional status concern horse people in all breeds and all disciplines.
But nobody is claiming a pro (or even a "shamateur") entered an "amateur" division. The OP is upset because someone who met the definition of the "Rider" division entered the "Rider" division.

[Kementari]

It is amazing to me that people are so concerned about this when there are so many real problems in the world today! It does not bother me when I compete against pros on green horses... WHO CARES??? I always aim for a personal best. I feel like one of the main problems in America right now is that the nation is full of winers and people that have a false sense of entitlement. Showing is not only about ribbons and points. Besides... the entries at horse trials are shrinking because of the economy, so this could become a mute point in the near future.

Well, clearly YOU care, since you took the time to post on the subject... :lol:

[CarrieK]

But nobody is claiming a pro (or even a "shamateur") entered an "amateur" division. The OP is upset because someone who met the definition of the "Rider" division entered the "Rider" division.
My comments weren't in response to the OP but in response to barnrat, simply stating that the question of and concern with status is a common one in the horse world.

Until, you know, it becomes "mute."