Toxic little black seeds? - update - post #16

[Whistlejacket]

Many thanks in advance. Any help on solving this mystery would be much appreciated.

Within a span of 4 days, 2 of my 3 horses (all pastured in the same field and all fed the same feed, hay, etc.) had identical presentations of colic - after spending all day turned out, found to have obvious abdominal discomfort/pain, palpable small intestine on rectal exam, ultrasound demonstration of dilated small intestine with non-productive peristalsis, and generalized depressed appearance. After observation overnight, it was determined that this was unlikely a surgical-type colic. Endoscopy demonstrated grade 3 of 5 ulcers and numerous little black seeds in the stomach (the stomach wall was coated with them).

When the ulcers were found in the first horse, we (i.e. the vets) attributed the colic episode to the ulcers. However, when the second horse presented identically, the vets all agreed that the overwhelming most likely diagnosis was toxic plant exposure. The ulcers could either be a pre-existing and unrelated condition or could have been induced by the toxin exposure.

I am meeting with the county extension agent tomorrow to go through the fields and also through the hay that I feed. Twenty-four hours before the first horse presented, I started to feed a new load of hay (2/3 new load of hay, 1/3 previous load of hay). The hay is from the same highly reputable grower who I have used for years. But the new load is from this year and the old load was from last year.

Also, 6 weeks ago I changed barns. While the field had always had horses in it (without any kind of colic problem), this is the first season my horses have been in this field.

As for the seeds, they look like little black sesame seeds, except perhaps just a little smaller.

Does anyone have any ideas?

Many thanks! :)

[Tamara in TN]

As for the seeds, they look like little black sesame seeds, except perhaps just a little smaller.

:)

are you in the South ??


best

[Whistlejacket]

Yes, I am in the South - specifically, central Virginia.

[Walela]

Could that possibly be the seeds from Nightshade. We found the dried fruit in some of our hay last year I open the pods and there was the smallest of black seeds in there.. Here is the URL for one of the members of the family...

http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/n/nighde05.html

[Tamara in TN]

Yes, I am in the South - specifically, central Virginia.

then I vote for Jimsonweed...one pod from one plant makes 100+ black seeds in the size you mention ...and one plant makes 50 plus pods...they have already started to open here...

best

[Daydream Believer]

Dallisgrass comes to mind and it can become toxic...the seeds will become almost like ergot if they get a fungus or something. This is a plant I considered as a cause of my mare's laminitis a month ago. We have it in a few places on our farm.

http://www.ncsu.edu/forage/dallis.htm

http://www.cattlenetwork.com/Cow_Calf_Content.asp?contentid=158688

[Daydream Believer]

Another article more specific to horses

http://www.myhorse.com/health/preventative/protect_your_horse_from_toxic_and_poisonous_grasse s.aspx#top

[Boomer]

How about Persimmons?

I have two very large persimmon trees in my pasture which I fence off every fall.

While not poisonous, the seeds are flat and the pulp very sticky. If horses eat too many, it can cause impaction colics. The seeds stick in the stomach and the pulp apparently just makes a mucky hard mass.

From what I have read, one or two are not likely to cause a problem (a lot of horses like them) but a dozen or so.... that said, there's people at work who let their horses eat as many as they like and say "I ain't never had no trouble out of them"....:rolleyes:

[2DogsFarm]

I vote for jimsonweed (Datura) - it has a lovely flower but the seedpods spread hundreds of tiny black seeds and are toxic.
Look for this:

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:HuZagnGHHtIqMM:http://bolincreek.org/images/Jimsonweed.jpg (http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:HuZagnGHHtIqMM:http://bolincreek.org/images/Jimsonweed.jpg)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datura_stramonium


Around here the teenagers have been known to ingest the seeds for kicks.
Pretty stupid, it's a neurotoxin.

[Tamara in TN]

Around here the teenagers have been known to ingest the seeds for kicks.
Pretty stupid, it's a neurotoxin.

even the biggest stoner meth-heads here will NOT mess with Jim....

the old people have told me that it was used to "ease the dying" as a tea...and poultices eased the pain of massive injuries...(wagon falling on you,foot cut off,fingers missing from sawmill)and these recipies will go back to pre 1890...

unlike the stem and leaves and roots the seeds are sweet and a horse would not be deterred like they would by the living plant

best

[Cherry]

I'm familiar with Jimsonweed and its pods and seeds. I have never seen black seeds in any Jimsonweed pod I have ever cut apart.... :no: Of course, there are a couple species of the common datura--one has flowers that are completely white and then there is datura Tatula which has a purple "foot", stalks and midribs and purple in the center of the flower. Perhaps those seeds are black but it's a tender plant and probably wouldn't Winter over here in the U.S.

If you have datura you'll know it--it thrives around barnyards and anywhere the soil is rich and moist. It can be quite invasive unless kept in check.

Garlic and onion chives have black seeds but I can't imagine them causing the kind of problem you are describing....

Please do post back here and let us know if the extension agent found anything.

Yes, people and animals have died from ingesting datura :uhoh: http://www.holoweb.com/cannon/jimsonwe.htm ....

I would be looking at the new hay. I ran into a problem one year with the hay from my trusted long-time supplier. When I cut open a bale of their hay that was a new crop I could smell the smell of nightshade--upon closer inspection the bale was just loaded with horse nettle! That was the only bale.... :eek: I took it back and got a replacement and an apology.... :yes: I love my hay people.... ;)

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=Cherry;3564080]I'm familiar with Jimsonweed and its pods and seeds. I have never seen black seeds in any Jimsonweed pod I have ever cut apart.... :no: Of course, there are a couple species of the common datura--one has flowers that are completely white and then there is datura Tatula which has a purple "foot", stalks and midribs and purple in the center of the flower. Perhaps those seeds are black but it's a tender plant and probably wouldn't Winter over here in the U.S.


these are four sided prickly pods full of black seeds...the flowers are white like trumpet vines and the plants are 4 feet tall...and smell just like horse nettle...these are certainly jimson...

best

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=2DogsFarm;3563884]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datura_stramonium


this photo is the correct one for the one that grows here...

best

[Cherry]

I've opened several pods from different plants of the the white flowering variant at different times and I've yet to see black seeds--they are more of a light reddish brown color.... At what point are they black??? :confused:

[Tamara in TN]

I've opened several pods from different plants of the the white flowering variant at different times and I've yet to see black seeds--they are more of a light reddish brown color.... At what point are they black??? :confused:

this time of the year as the tree leaves change...the plant starts to die back from the pods backward to the stems...

pods go brown and split into the 4 sections and the black seeds fall out...if the OP had hay baled from late last season (sept-nov here or maybe earlier depending on how far N one traveled and when the tree leaves changed) it is possible that they were disturbed and ended up in the hay...jim is the only nightshade I know of in the South (which is why I asked her location) that produces so many seeds in one place...

not like horse nettle that gives you a heads up by color and prickery-ness and of course smell, but not so many seeds...

but a late fall pod ruptured open in a bale would account for the volume of seeds that they saw...and the size and color...it is only in this state were they made into tea here in the old days...

and the seeds themselves don't smell nor does the seed pod after one day....that smell would stay in the stems and crushed leaves...the pod being prickery would be nosed around and scatter the seeds as it was being moved....jmo

best

[Whistlejacket]

Thanks for all the input.

I met with the extension agent yesterday.

We went through the hay, and she does not think that it is the culprit. Of course, the does not exclude a random toxic weed getting into a random flake of hay. (And until this is sorted out, before I give my horses any hay, I meticulously go through each flake to make sure there is nothing unusual in it.)

We also walked through the field. She identified perrlimint (spelling?), which is toxic, but she said the horses usually stay away from it. And she did not know what its seeds look like. There were also a couple other types of weeds that she took samples of in order to bring back to the office for identification.

She very much thinks that the little black seeds in the stomach of both horses are not just a random unrelated finding but are causative / a clue to the etiology of all of this. She is going to send the seed sample to an expert at VA Tech for identification.

Interestingly, the gastric reflux material that was obtained from the second horse at time of presentation was "sweet smelling". Apparently gastric reflux material is usually foul smelling (or at least not sweet smelling). Again, it makes you wonder if that is a clue in sorting this out.

As for the horses, they are both doing okay. The older one (19 yo) really looks like he has been through the wringer, and it may take him a little longer to completely bounce back. But he is doing better each day. And I am very grateful that they both are recovering. And I am very appreciative of the excellent vet care that they received.

Of course, I am still shaking...

Thanks again for the ideas, and I will post an update when the final analysis by the extension agent and the experts at VA Tech become available.

[Cherry]

Thanks, Whistlejacket! Glad to hear your horses are recovering.... :yes:

When you stop to think about it it doesn't take very much to lay a large animal like a horse low (or make 'em lame).... :( If we're lucky we can find the cause but I would have to say the majority of the time we just never find the cause of the problem....

[Walela]

The vet was here this morning and we were talking about this thread she said that IF it was persimmons that coke cola will dissolve the seeds.Feed the horse coke..




Terri

[gabz]

Do you feed a locally prepared grain mixture? After looking through these links, I'm wondering if perhaps there was rapeseed mixed into either some hay or your feed?

How about rapeseed? Some varieties, it seems, can be toxic... see the third link that goes to a book.

image: http://www.pet-supply-store.co.uk/prodimages/6788.jpg

Definition: http://www.tracingpaper.org.uk/2007/08/03/harvesting-rapeseed-black-seeds-for-golden-oil/

Possible Toxicity (book) http://books.google.com/books?id=m4VM9__SKJMC&pg=PA86&lpg=PA86&dq=horse+toxic+plant+rapeseed&source=web&ots=xGOxjNk4EP&sig=ByMQzrTk_pCL7Im8PLsozz2VscE&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result

How it might have gotten into your feed and/or hay
http://www.agmrc.org/agmrc/commodity/grainsoilseeds/rapeseed/


And... lambs quarter seeds are small and very dark
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.wildmanstevebrill.com/JPEG%27S/Plant%2520Web%2520Images/Lamb%27sQuartersFlowers.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.wildmanstevebrill.com/Plants.Folder/Lamb%27sQuarters.html&h=287&w=370&sz=43&hl=en&start=15&um=1&usg=__fgLxbsN4-JeNkApSCdw1jgTryt8=&tbnid=Cq3PShVVgjlTiM:&tbnh=95&tbnw=122&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dtiny%2Bblack%2Bseeds%26um%3D1%26hl%3D en