My horse almost killed herself today

[Beethoven]

Scarest few moments of my life. I am tacking my mare up as I do everyday. I had her in different crossties than usual, but usual if I am there she is fine in crossties so long as nothing comes at her randomly. Anyways I get her boots on and the surcingle on(we were planning on long lining her) and walk to the other side to adjust the pad and all is well. Then I walk back in front of her with the intention of grabbing her bridle and putting it on when out of no where she pulls back. She pulled back hard. She pulled the circle eye hook out flat so the top of the crosstie flung off the wall and hit her in the face. On the bridge of her nose and on the side of her face as well. I did not know that at the time. So once the crosstie goes flying accross the barn, she walks back up to me as usual when she know she did something stupid, but then I see that she is dripping blood from her nose, so I step foward to grab her. Well that set her off and yup she pulled back again and broke the other crosstie and fell down and got her legs caught in a shovel leaning against the wall. I thought she was going to snap a leg or her neck when she got caught in the shovel and went down right next to the wall. It was terifying. I am the only one in the barn as everyone else is in the barn apartment, so I started screaming for help as I thought she was going to die as the blood was by then gushing out of her right nostril. :eek::(

Well everyone came running as they heard her boom and me screaming to call the vet my horse is dying. Thankfully once I got up to her and my trainer came out we realized that the first crosstie had smacked her in the face hard and thats why she had a nose bleed. She had a few cuts and scraps on her legs from falling down and was a bit short on her front leg the first couple steps, but other than that she is okay. Her nose was still slowly dripping randomly when I left, but the vet just felt that she busted a bunch of capillaries up in her nose. It really was so terrifying to watch. I really though she was going to kill herself. I still do not know what made her pull back in the first place. :no: She has been great in crossties for the past year if not longer. She sometimes threatens to pull back but stops as soon as I pull her foward.

Wow it was scary. Sorry just had to share as it was so insane. After I realized she was okay, I almost passed out from the blood and shock of what had just happened. :no:

[eventchic33]

Ummmm Really dumb question, But I gotta ask........ Why was there a shovel or any equipment anywhere near where your horse was tied?
Glad she is ok........

[Windswept Stable]

Oh my! what a scarey thing. So sorry to hear of your bad time today.
Sure hope your horse is feeling better tomorrow. And you too.
Don't you just hate when you want to help them but you cant?

[Beethoven]

Well it was not near where she was tied, but rather she ended up near it after she busted out of the crossties by running backwards. It likes to hang arounf next to the wash rack to clean up poop and such. But still I thought of the same thing as she got caught in it why was the shovel there. Believe me I will make sure that the shovel gets hung up after each use now.

Windswept..yes it is a horrible feeling. Just standing there and not being able to do anything. I think it will be a long time before I will feel safe crosstieing her again. It just not worth it anymore. The last bad incident was 3 years ago when she pulled back broke the hay string and ran backwards and slipped and hit her head.

[Plumcreek]

You were very lucky. My gelding broke the ishium bone of his pelvis hitting the ground after setting back. Eye screws are baaad. Get a 4 screw cross tie ring (Stockyards has a good one) or better yet, a Blocker tie ring for each side of the cross ties.

Glad you were not part of the wreck.

[Beethoven]

You were very lucky. My gelding broke the ishium bone of his pelvis hitting the ground after setting back. Eye screws are baaad. Get a 4 screw cross tie ring (Stockyards has a good one) or better yet, a Blocker tie ring for each side of the cross ties.

Glad you were not part of the wreck.

I have a tie blocker and am definatly going to get another one. I plan on putting them up so that if I ever decide to tie her again it will be with one of those. They are why she was even crosstieing in the first place, but she had been so good at the new barn that I did not put up her tie blocker ring.

[myrna]

things happen so fast sometimes.It makes me crazy when i ask my boarders not to do things like"please don't lead your horse around by his fly mask" or "please don't leave wheel barrows in the aisles".from one boarder i usually just get an eye roll,like i am asking something unreasonable.but my barn,my insurance.I am so glad everything is ok,and you already picked up on what could make it safer.Good for you!

[sublimequine]

Set your crossties up with some string so they'll break, and either use a breakaway halter or a leather halter.

My mare has broken enough halters for me to know this. Better the halter than the horse's face! :eek:

[blackstallion]

How scary! I hope she'll be okay. I was going to warn you to be very careful next time you tie her, since she probably will see those cross ties as what hurt her and not to keen to be attached to them again. I had a mare break a board (never tie a horse to a board :( ) and it whacked her right in the nose. She really never tied again, and would start snorting and blowing and sooner break her neck than be attached to something ever after that.

Jingles for your girl!

[Beethoven]

She always breaks the crossties instead of her breakaway halters..its the weirdest thing. So I have decided only all leather halters from now on so some weak spot will give with hay string ties to the rings on the halter than attached to the crossties. Altough I do not plan on tying her anytime soon.

[Coobie]

So happy to hear everyone is okay! I hate crosstying. I try not to if I can help it. I've just seen too many bad things happen.

[EqTrainer]

Just glad you are both ok.

[LMH]

She always breaks the crossties instead of her breakaway halters..its the weirdest thing. So I have decided only all leather halters from now on so some weak spot will give with hay string ties to the rings on the halter than attached to the crossties. Altough I do not plan on tying her anytime soon.

ALWAYS? As in this happens often?

What about teaching her to not pull back while tied?

Or is that just silly.

[Beethoven]

ALWAYS? As in this happens often?

What about teaching her to not pull back while tied?

Or is that just silly.

Always as in the 4 times in the 3 years I have had her. Yup been there done that after she pulled back badly the first time. I took a full year of teaching her how to tie. She knows how to tie. Most times if she is scared and she backs up enough to hit the end of the crossties she jumps foward as she knows that is not allowed. She is a TB mare and sometimes her mind leaves her body and no amount of training will fix that IMHO. Its been a long time since she has done something like this which is why it was so surprising and scary to me. It was not like she just walked back and set down and pulled. She ran back, hit the end of the crossties and reared up and was shaking her head back and forth while pulling back.
Her brain has not fallen out of her head for a good long time at least a year if not more. It use to happen a lot more(brain falling out of head, not pulling back). She was a rescue so full past handling in not known.

[whaat]

Glad she is ok. Cross ties make me nervous, even with ones that don't care. I now only cross tie with a wall behind. Now mine are all really good at ground tying. I don't know if you have worked on that but it might be a good option for her.

[spaghetti legs]

She always breaks the crossties instead of her breakaway halters..its the weirdest thing. So I have decided only all leather halters from now on so some weak spot will give with hay string ties to the rings on the halter than attached to the crossties. Altough I do not plan on tying her anytime soon.

ALWAYS? As in this happens often?

What about teaching her to not pull back while tied?

Or is that just silly.

hmm.. You are really better off teaching her to tie properly what happens if you have to sell her... tying can be a really big issue... Avoiding the issues aren't going to solve them...

[2bee]

Plenty of horses can not learn to tie safely. I rarely tie solid to anything, even with the ones that "tie" well its not really worth the risk. I use a Blocker Tie Ring, "The Clip", breakaway velco ties etc.

[Melelio]

How is a triple stitched leather halter going to break??? I often wonder this when I see posts about turnout in leather halters.... :confused:

The Blocker rings are great. I don't have a puller in my barn but it's the only thing I use because you just never know.

[Nezzy]

My own horse learned to break out of the crossties recently, altho his first time was fear, the second time he panicked again, and so i got a blocker tie ring. He's doing well with it, but now is learning to pull out of it, so i have to go to the 2nd step. i think i need a second one so i can use them as crossties. he never stands perfectly still, and when i used to use crossties he did. I highly recommend the Blocker, b/c once they break out of crossties, it's very difficult to teach them not to. In my case, my horse panics when he feels the pressure of the crossties. Good luck. i'm glad your horse is mostly ok.

[marta]

sometimes stuff happens and it happens so fast you don't have the time to react.
i remember one time years ago i took a blanket of a school horse and i guess static hit him and he reared and flipped back. i was so scared and felt so guilty. he ended up with a bloody nose from the nose strap on the halter.

[sisu27]

Yikes...glad everyone is ok.

We use string on all our crossties with breakaway clips and I always undo the clip on my horses leather halter. Your story proves that I am not just being paranoid.

[Auventera Two]

She always breaks the crossties instead of her breakaway halters..its the weirdest thing. So I have decided only all leather halters from now on so some weak spot will give with hay string ties to the rings on the halter than attached to the crossties. Altough I do not plan on tying her anytime soon.

Sounds to me like the mare needs to learn how to TIE. Horses that know how to tie don't pull back unless it's a very VERY unsual circumstance. If she "always breaks the crossties" then the heifer has learned she can set back on something and get her way. Sorry but I have very little tolerance for horses who don't tie. What if that was YOUR face that she broke with the tie?! Horses are big animals, and things "just happen" sometimes but horses that don't tie are a people induced problem, almost always.

John Lyons has a VERY good, VERY effective system of training the horse to tie that deals with increasing the pressure slowly and steadily over a course of many sessions. His method doesn't advocate just tie the horse up and let her fight it out. It deals with teaching the horse a go foward cue, then eventually looping the lead around a post or stall wall bar, and holding the end while asking the horse to "go forward" while you give a little pressure. As the horse takes a step, or leans forward, you release the pressure, and pet the horse or give a treat. You repeat many times, eventually eliminating the go forward cue, while increasing the pressure. I've read on forums that people who have used this system have never ever had their horses set back on tie since then.

PLEASE devote the time to train your horse. What if she was flipping over backwards when you rode her? You'd take the time to train that out, or fix the problem, wouldn't you?

I'm sorry people but using break away halters and crossties on baling twine is NOT an acceptable solution, in my not very humble opinion. A LOT of terrible things can happen when that horse sets back and tears the ropes loose. As was seen by the OP! But what if it was worse? What if a kid was behind the horse when she set back and she got kicked or crushed? What if the tie hit YOU in the face, or somebody else and broke bones? What if the horse tears loose and gets on the road, etc.?

I take my horses everywhere, and I never think twice about tying them tight. My 5 yr old was just at the largest trail ride in our state this weekend - 1400 horses. So much commotion you can't even imagine. She was tied tight to the side of my trailer and there she stood eating her hay for an hour while I got everything ready to go. She didn't even look up at all the stuff going on around her. Horses MUST know how to tie for SAFETY reasons.

[Never Let Me Go]

Yeesh! I'm just glad everything turned out okay - that could have been disastrous.

[2bee]

Sounds to me like the mare needs to learn how to TIE. Horses that know how to tie don't pull back unless it's a very VERY unsual circumstance. If she "always breaks the crossties" then the heifer has learned she can set back on something and get her way. Sorry but I have very little tolerance for horses who don't tie. What if that was YOUR face that she broke with the tie?! Horses are big animals, and things "just happen" sometimes but horses that don't tie are a people induced problem, almost always.

John Lyons has a VERY good, VERY effective system of training the horse to tie that deals with increasing the pressure slowly and steadily over a course of many sessions. His method doesn't advocate just tie the horse up and let her fight it out. It deals with teaching the horse a go foward cue, then eventually looping the lead around a post or stall wall bar, and holding the end while asking the horse to "go forward" while you give a little pressure. As the horse takes a step, or leans forward, you release the pressure, and pet the horse or give a treat. You repeat many times, eventually eliminating the go forward cue, while increasing the pressure. I've read on forums that people who have used this system have never ever had their horses set back on tie since then.

PLEASE devote the time to train your horse. What if she was flipping over backwards when you rode her? You'd take the time to train that out, or fix the problem, wouldn't you?

I'm sorry people but using break away halters and crossties on baling twine is NOT an acceptable solution, in my not very humble opinion. A LOT of terrible things can happen when that horse sets back and tears the ropes loose. As was seen by the OP! But what if it was worse? What if a kid was behind the horse when she set back and she got kicked or crushed? What if the tie hit YOU in the face, or somebody else and broke bones? What if the horse tears loose and gets on the road, etc.?

I take my horses everywhere, and I never think twice about tying them tight. My 5 yr old was just at the largest trail ride in our state this weekend - 1400 horses. So much commotion you can't even imagine. She was tied tight to the side of my trailer and there she stood eating her hay for an hour while I got everything ready to go. She didn't even look up at all the stuff going on around her. Horses MUST know how to tie for SAFETY reasons.

Knowing how to tie and actually doing so are two completly different things. I dont see where any of us are saying dont teach the horse to tie. All horses should be trained to tie, but after a horse has broken free several times it is unlikley it will ever tie safely again........at least thats my observation on numerous rescue cases Ive handled. May tie 100 times without incident, but what happens at 101?

The bailing twine/Blocker Tie ring etc are excellent at keeping a situation from getting out of hand.......look at them like a seat belt. Should'nt need them, but when you do theyre priceless. The horses dont know theyre not tied solid, until panic hits and they intended to break away any how...........except now there is no thrashing or violent explosion rearward when something finally breaks. At best the horse calmed down in a few feet and may even still be "tied", at worst the horse is loose........which if it broke free it would have been lose (and possibly hurt) anyway.

[J Swan]

Any of y'all use turtle ties?

[Lori B]

What are turtle ties, blocker rings, etc.????

Pictures? Links?

I just read an article suggesting that instead of putting the baling twine / string between the tie and wall, put it between the tie and the horse, so that exactly what you describe (tie swing around violently, hitting horse in face) is less likely to happen, since the string BETWEEN the horse and the tie can also break.

So glad she's ok. The ability of horses to maim and frighten themselves is breathtaking at times.

[myhorsefaith]

thumbs up for tie blokker rings.

I have them because I have a mare who is a little odd..she is super good so long as you have her attention- she knows how to give to pressure...but she will get in a trance very easily and wake up and automatically freak out. So grooming her i always have to keep her engaged. the tie blocker ring is great because if she does "go there" then when she does "wake up" she's still startled but not trapped. I'd never, ever hard tie her to anything.

[FindersKeepers]

My TB mare had a traumatic crossties incident before I bought her. Chain crossties and too much clutter in the aisleway. Thankfully the person I bought her from shared this with me. So I taught her to ground tie. Then introduced the crossties in the washstall, so there was a wall behind her, and had the crossties loosely tied to the wall with baling twine, just in case. The first few times, she started to back up, but hit the wall which sent her forward...but for some reason pressure applied to them when moving forward doesn't set them off like when they hit it going in reverse (I'm sure there is an instinctual reason for that...but I haven't researched it)

She never broke them, and is now fine, but I swear it was an issue of teaching her it's safe to stand in one spot. It took 2 years, but she then would stand on crossties anywhere, anytime, like a perfect lady.

If you tie her again, you need to make sure that with a small amount of pressure, she can get free. Yes, she needs to learn her manners and learn to stand still, BUT you need to keep her and yourself safe at the same time.

I have had a lot more success teaching them to ground tie and then introducing the crossties than the other way around. Especially with the TB's. It's worth the invested time.

[ExJumper]

1. Baling twine on cross ties
2. No shovels in the aisle!!

My mare never tied well when she had room to back up. Perhaps I should have dome more to fix it, but she tied fine in her stall and such, so I simply didn't tie her in an open aisle. It worked for us. I knew it was a danger area so I chose to avoid that issue by only tying her in her is a stall or something else where her butt was up against something. (She's a forever horse, too, so no worries about selling her to someone who can;t handle it.)

I understand the theory behind a horse knowing that it can't break away when it is tied, but I come from a training background that chose not to pick that fight. Our horses tied, but we used twine for emergencies. None of them became habitual breakers, so we must not have been doing things too wrong.

So although I understand the idea behind NOT using twine or something else breakable, I personally prefer to have the twine there. I would rather have to go catch my horse galloping around the farm with a tie hanging from his halter than pay to fix his broken back.

[Just Wondering]

Eye screws are baaad. Get a 4 screw cross tie ring (Stockyards has a good one) or better yet, a Blocker tie ring for each side of the cross ties.



Anything is bad if not maintained. The attachment location will become loose with the constant tugging of horses over a period of time.

[J Swan]

Turtle ties
http://www.doversaddlery.com/product.asp?pn=X1-27266&sid=froogle&CATALOG_CODE=1X814&EID=X1814001&zmam=1460880&zmas=1&zmac=49&zmap=X1-27266&bhcd2=1223318518


I've used them for years. Like others, I'd rather try and catch a loose horse than pay vet bills..... or hire a backhoe.

I have them for the trailer and in the aisle as cross ties.

What are turtle ties, blocker rings, etc.????

Pictures? Links?

I just read an article suggesting that instead of putting the baling twine / string between the tie and wall, put it between the tie and the horse, so that exactly what you describe (tie swing around violently, hitting horse in face) is less likely to happen, since the string BETWEEN the horse and the tie can also break.

So glad she's ok. The ability of horses to maim and frighten themselves is breathtaking at times.

[mp]

I have had a lot more success teaching them to ground tie and then introducing the crossties than the other way around. Especially with the TB's. It's worth the invested time.

Ground tying is a good thing for any horse to know. :yes:

OP, I'm glad your horse will be OK. Cross ties are an accident waiting to happen. I can count on one hand the number of times I've used them in the last 10 years.

[Ride'emCO]

I've found once a smart horse learns how to break the crossties it's all over. :uhoh: For this reason, I will only crosstie a horse with a wall behind him. Glad your horse is OK. :yes:

[sublimequine]

A2; Breakaway halters and string/twine on crossties ISN'T a solution, it's a safety precaution for two cases..

1. Until the horse learns to tie properly, if it is absolutely neccessary to crosstie it in the meantime.

2. In that rare circumstance even a totally trained horse will pull back (ie, freak accidents).

I groundtie my mare most of the time just because it's convenient, but a few years ago while she was ground tied one of the barn kittens decided my mare's tail was a good ROPE FOR CLIMBING UP. Luckily I was able to keep maresie still until I was able to pry said kitten-with-a-death-wish out of her hair, but yes, she did break her groundtie training and lurched forward when she felt something climbing up her tail. Sorry, can't blame her for that, and THAT'S what I consider a freak accident!!! :lol:

[Nezzy]

What are turtle ties, blocker rings, etc.????

Pictures? Links?

I just read an article suggesting that instead of putting the baling twine / string between the tie and wall, put it between the tie and the horse, so that exactly what you describe (tie swing around violently, hitting horse in face) is less likely to happen, since the string BETWEEN the horse and the tie can also break.

So glad she's ok. The ability of horses to maim and frighten themselves is breathtaking at times.

http://www.blockerranch.com/

My horse cross tied and tied his entire life until this year( he's 16) and he panicked. now he won't cross tie.. So the Blocker Tie ring has been wonderful for me.

[LMH]

I used to use Turtle snaps and the Blocker Ties are WAY super duper mega better.

[Dalemma]

Well your experience is the reason I don't cross tie........It is down right dangerous....so much safer to tie to a clip at head height with a lead rope to the halter.

Hope your horse is recovers.


Dalemma

[ToiRider]

My horse tied well until my new dog decided to jump at his nose while he was tied. Now he is always on the lookout for bogeymen. He still ties fairly well, but I have gone to using the blocker tie ring also, which is wonderful. When he does pull back, there is very little drama because of the blocker tie ring, which has helped him begin to tie well again. I tied him to a substantial tree this summer (just wrapped the rope several times around the tree, thinking it would give if needed), and he pulled back hard. The rope didn't slip and the tree won. That incident has seemed to help him stop pulling back. He ground ties very well, so I often just ground tie him or wrap the rope once around the hitching post. The only time he "leaves" when ground tied is to get in line for the sprayer after I have unsaddled him after a long, hot ride, or to go to the back of the trailer to load himself in after he has been untacked. Occasionally he will head for a patch of grass while waiting for me to put tack up. I can't complain too much with such a cooperative guy.

[isaidwhoa]

I use the Equips in my barn. They came in handy when my mare was whacked in the nose by the farrier's rasp (accident). I particularly like that the soft velcro part is left attatched to the halter for easy catching.

http://www.sporthorseproducts.com/tie-safe-cross-tie-2.html

I'm so glad your mare is going to be alright!

[SuperSTB]

My sister's horse flipped in a martingale :(

I'm holding him just before a hunter pace and start fly spraying his legs. After several squirts he decides- enough- and flies backward catching himself off balance throws his head up and viola the momentum just keeps him going... he wasn't the brightest bulb anyhow.

Horses do stupid things sometimes- heck people do stupid things MOST of the time. Glad to hear your horse is okay though. Scary when they hand you bonehead moments- keep you on your toes right?!!!

[Sithly]

Yikes. That is scary.

Get a couple of these for your crossties: http://theclip.info/

[BoysNightOut]

[QUOTE=Melelio;3562626]How is a triple stitched leather halter going to break??? I often wonder this when I see posts about turnout in leather halters.... :confused: QUOTE]


I fully agree. I worked at a barn last year where one of the horse's got it's leather halter stuck on a water spigot handle made of thick metal. (And before anybody questions this, I didn't see what exactly happened as I was in the feed room, another worker had the horse...basically, she went to get a lead rope from the center aisle after bring the horse in from T/O and the horse went to sniff the spigot when her back was turned, resulting in the halter getting stuck on the handle. It was an accident, and the worker felt horrible, and learned her lesson. The horse is fine now).

But anyways, did the leather halter break? Nope. The thick metal handle did, resulting in the horse's skull whacking againt the hose wheel and having a bloody, minor fracture.

My horse wears a halter with a break-a-way crown, always!

[Deloris - New York]

Wish you luck for future. Hope everyone is ok. Hate the darn cross ties myself but my boarders love them. I have never seen a leather halter that hasn't broke but I guess thats just here. Thats usually why the breakaways are constructed with a leather head piece. Believe me triple stitching doesn't hold up when you have a 1200 lb. animal trying to break it. But yes, the clasps usually bend first.

[Auventera Two]

Well your experience is the reason I don't cross tie........It is down right dangerous....so much safer to tie to a clip at head height with a lead rope to the halter.

Hope your horse is recovers.


Dalemma

Oh for christ sake, it is not dangerous. :rolleyes: How is it any more dangerous than stuffing a 1200 pound prey animal into a metal box and dragging it behind your truck down the highway at 65 mph during rush hour traffic, on the freeway? Or strapping a little piece of leather to it's back and galloping and jumping over 5 foot obstacles? EVERYTHING you do with a horse has the potential to be dangerous or deadly. It's all about TRAINING. TRAINING. TRAINING. TRAINING.

If you can horse trailer a horse, or jump or do dressage or lasso a 600 pound steer and drag it to a stop with a horse, you damn well sure can cross tie the beast in the barn aisle. It all comes down to - what do you "WANT" to train, and what do you want to just glaze over and ignore?!

Good grief.

[marta]

good post;)

when my mare had her one and only hissy fit on cross ties (mentioned in my prior post) the leather crown piece on her nylon halter broke. it actually broke right at the buckle so she's still wearing the halter w/ the same crown piece just that it's one hole higher. but that crown piece was just a single ply flimsy piece of leather. the triple stitched stuff seems a lot more resilient.

[mp]

Oh for christ sake, it is not dangerous. :rolleyes: How is it any more dangerous than stuffing a 1200 pound prey animal into a metal box and dragging it behind your truck down the highway at 65 mph during rush hour traffic, on the freeway? Or strapping a little piece of leather to it's back and galloping and jumping over 5 foot obstacles? EVERYTHING you do with a horse has the potential to be dangerous or deadly. It's all about TRAINING. TRAINING. TRAINING. TRAINING.

If you can horse trailer a horse, or jump or do dressage or lasso a 600 pound steer and drag it to a stop with a horse, you damn well sure can cross tie the beast in the barn aisle. It all comes down to - what do you "WANT" to train, and what do you want to just glaze over and ignore?!

Good grief.

You miss the point.

If you need to move a horse considerable distance, there are really no alternatives except to trailer him. But there are other, safer ways to keep a horse from wandering off.

If something out of the blue happens and a horse panics (and even Arabian wonder horses who are calm in a sea of 1400 horses can panic), he may run off if he's ground tied or set back hard and perhaps break a single tie. I've seen both those situations and the horses came through unscathed or with minor injuries. But because of the way cross ties restrain, a panicked horse can flip over, which can leave it badly injured or dead. I don't care to see that again, thank you.

It's not about TRAINING. TRAINING. TRAINING. TRAINING for me. My horses all tie well and ground tie, too. I don't use cross ties because I don't think they're very safe. There are enough ways for horses to injure themselves. No need to offer them another, IMO.

[Nezzy]

My horse Was TRAINED TRAINED TRAINED for 16 yrs until he spooked and panicked. Now he untrained to cross-ties. It can happen to any horse.

Instead of scolding people for not training their horses, i would rather help them decide what is the best way to tie a horse safely. and so far, the Blocker Tie ring is doing a great job for me. I don't feel safe cross-tying him again, at least not in the traditional style, but i would and probably will get a second blocker ring and use that to cross tie him.

Also the CLIP looks pretty good, too.

Because of the flight instinct of horses, there will never be a perfect way to tie a horse. Some horse, somewhere will end up getting hurt, no matter what method.

[LD1129]

:yes: we do the same thing. Up on the cross ties we have bailing twine between the screw eye and crossties. That way only the bailing twine breaks or at least breaks first.

Set your crossties up with some string so they'll break, and either use a breakaway halter or a leather halter.

My mare has broken enough halters for me to know this. Better the halter than the horse's face! :eek:

[flashy]

Oh for christ sake, it is not dangerous. :rolleyes: How is it any more dangerous than stuffing a 1200 pound prey animal into a metal box and dragging it behind your truck down the highway at 65 mph during rush hour traffic, on the freeway? Or strapping a little piece of leather to it's back and galloping and jumping over 5 foot obstacles? EVERYTHING you do with a horse has the potential to be dangerous or deadly. It's all about TRAINING. TRAINING. TRAINING. TRAINING.

If you can horse trailer a horse, or jump or do dressage or lasso a 600 pound steer and drag it to a stop with a horse, you damn well sure can cross tie the beast in the barn aisle. It all comes down to - what do you "WANT" to train, and what do you want to just glaze over and ignore?!

Good grief.

EXACTLY!!!!!:yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::ye s::yes::yes::yes::yes:

This is one of my pet peeves, listening to people say how dangerous it is to cross tie. And that it is cruel to hard tie a horse so that it CAN learn to tie. And they CAN all learn to tie if given to chance. The blocker rings, twine, quick release snaps are all REWARDING the very behavior you are trying to avoid. And you all are absolutely right, AS LONG AS you use these devises the horse will never safely tie. Are horses not creatures of habit, learn by repetition??????? BUT, DO NOT CROSS TIE A HORSE UNTIL IT KNOWS HOW TO TIE. Do this in a stall so that you can get out of the way and let the horse work through it. This way he is only rewarded by the behavior you are looking for (release of pressure and standing still). And don't go in and try to groom and tack up until the horse will stand there quietly for several hours. It may take a horse with severe issues a few days. Like Auventera Two says it all depends on IF YOU ARE WILLING TO TRAIN the horse. It is no different than any other training issue. We spend hours in the saddle working on issues. But we don't give up just because it becomes hard or say our horses just can't do it. This is the first, most basic and greatest tool you'll ever give your horse. NUFF SAID

[J Swan]

I've never met a horse that couldn't invent a new and interesting way to commit suicide.

Do the best you can to teach them to tie all sorts of ways - but always have a weak link somewhere, in case they get any bright ideas.

Eventually, they'll think of something, even a horse taught to ground tie. Horses will be horses. :rolleyes:

[ybiaw]

You poor thing. I'm glad your horse is ok, and glad you're ok.

Similar thing happened to my guy in August. He's normally an "I don't care" kind of guy in the crossties, but...something startled him and he pulled back, and the crosstie snapped. The clip came back and smacked him in the face, right on the bridge of his nose, just like your horse. LUCKILY - it missed his eye. He had a huge lump on his face - still does, actually - and he bled when it happened, too. I stopped working him for a while afterward, because I figured his nasal passages had to be quite swollen, which would make breathing difficult.

Just something to expect - when the swelling on her face starts to go down, there's going to be some drainage happening. It's going to look like her nose is bleeding again, but it's just old, dried up blood that's being expelled from her sinus. That's what happened with my guy. You may want to consider putting her on some a mild antibiotic or some SMZs to prevent a sinus infection from developing while her nasal passage is all swollen.

[Equibrit]

Just tack her up in the stall.

[sublimequine]

You folks need to lay off her, my goodness. If she wasn't want to crosstie her horse, that is HER CHOICE. Get off her tail about it, it's HER decision, not yours! :no:

OP, I do know how you feel. Regardless of "training", I will NOT tie my horse to anything but a blocker tie ring or equivalent. Does she pull back like a maniac every time? Nope. Has she had bad experiences in the past with tieing, thus an explosive reaction is ALWAYS a possibility, even if the possibility is very small? YES.

If I can diffuse a total breakdown by using a blocker tie ring, then heck yes I'm gonna use one! She may not be perfect about tieing, but at least she doesn't start quivering and rolling her eyes into the back of her head (think she hit the end of a tie once and the pressure on her poll must've been extreme, she's still to this day poll shy about a few very specific things) in anticipation of pain when I put her on the blocker ring now. Not ideal, but ya know what? It's reality. Welcome to the real world, folks. :lol:

[Beethoven]

Wow what a long thread. Anyways my horse knows how to tie, but its rather if she choose to tie or not thats the issue. I spent a year teaching her after she learned she could break loose from being tied. THe first barn I ever had her at had velcro in bewteen the clips and the crosstie and she just had to flick her head and whala she was free. So I did baling twine in between wall and screw eye and she set back as excpeted but broke the hay string anyways so when screaming down the hall with chains attached to her face, so thats when she fell and hit her head the first time which was 3 years ago. I did not tie her for awhile after that except in her stall in a plain nylon halter and a rope, so that she could not get loose and believe me she tried, but eventually saw that standing tied was far easier than fighting. I still did not feel comfortable tying her in hall way crossties(which are dangerous IMO) but she was fine in crossties with 3 walls as she had bounteries. I used the tie blocker ring on one side of hall way crossties and the other just used the crosstie, so if she did test it she would get the release then stop. That worked great and she did not test crossties for a good year in which I moved barns and no longer need the tie blocker ring I felt. She stood for a good 6 months in the crossties at the new barn without incident. A few months ago I was pulling her mane and she decided she did not like that so she pulled back and broke the snap on the tie. So she kinda learned she could get free again. SO the next few days I watched her in the crossties and anytime she moved at all I would correct her and make her stand still. Then last week my trainers son was playing with his dump truck in the barn and came around the corner pushing it full speed at her and that freaked her out and she pulled back and came out of her halter. So ever since then she has been a bit on edge in the crossties which I expected, so we have been working on manners and thats its okay to be tied. So, when she freaked for no reason it was suprising athough it was a stormy day which kinda makes her on edge anyways. So now in my mind we have to start over. She has learned again that she can breakout if she wants to although it did not go as smoothly as planned, which hell may have taught her not to pull back, but I have not tied her since then as she is still swollen and taking days off from the incident.

So now 2 years of work down the drain, and I must start over and I do that by not tying her for awhile so she maybe forgets how to get free or the need and feeling to get free from being tied. I know that sounds weird but she is a very odd horse that I have had people suggest I just put her down as she is too difficult and not worth my time, but to me she is. She will never find another home as she is not suitable for anyone else but me. She doesn't like or deal with anyone else but me well. She is special and not in a good way, but I rescued her and would never put her in that situation again. We have come to an understanding and work well together, so if she never ties again o well...I am the one that will have to deal with it.

Thanks for all the conerns and suggestions.

She is doing well although her face is swollen and she does have some sinus drainage from that side of her face. She got chiropracted tonight and put back into place so she should be feeling good to go once her face heals up.

[Plumcreek]

For the 'train em to tie' crowd... My gelding seemingly had a rib displaced (found later). Eventhough he had stood tied saddled a hundred times before, THIS time he startled at something, puffed up and, I guess, felt the sharp pain from the rib, and set back. The more he set back the more it hurt. If the lead snap had not broken, possibly his neck would have broken instead of his hip projection.

Yeah, train them, but always tie with something that will be wreck proof.
After that experience, I do not want ANYTHING to break so they can hit the ground hard. The blocker tie ring is the best.

On a macabre note, while on the Grand Canyon mule ride, we passed a shelf with a line of hitching rails. The shelf was maybe 15 feet wide, and there was about 12 feet from rail to a 500 foot sheer drop. Wrangler said forrest service packers to Phantom Ranch sometimes used it. We joked that a horse would only set back once there.

[Sithly]

EXACTLY!!!!!:yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::ye s::yes::yes::yes::yes:

This is one of my pet peeves, listening to people say how dangerous it is to cross tie. And that it is cruel to hard tie a horse so that it CAN learn to tie. And they CAN all learn to tie if given to chance. The blocker rings, twine, quick release snaps are all REWARDING the very behavior you are trying to avoid. And you all are absolutely right, AS LONG AS you use these devises the horse will never safely tie. Are horses not creatures of habit, learn by repetition??????? BUT, DO NOT CROSS TIE A HORSE UNTIL IT KNOWS HOW TO TIE. Do this in a stall so that you can get out of the way and let the horse work through it. This way he is only rewarded by the behavior you are looking for (release of pressure and standing still). And don't go in and try to groom and tack up until the horse will stand there quietly for several hours. It may take a horse with severe issues a few days. Like Auventera Two says it all depends on IF YOU ARE WILLING TO TRAIN the horse. It is no different than any other training issue. We spend hours in the saddle working on issues. But we don't give up just because it becomes hard or say our horses just can't do it. This is the first, most basic and greatest tool you'll ever give your horse. NUFF SAID



Heh, heh.

Tying is a little different than most training endeavors. If you haven't learned that yet, you will someday encounter a horse that will teach you. ;)

I compare it to falling off a horse. You can train yourself to be a great rider, thus lessening the chances you will fall, but you can never completely eliminate the risk of falling. No matter how good you are, there's always room for an unexpected catastrophe.

It's the same principle for the horse. You can train a horse to tie, but you'll never untrain the basic nature of the horse. They're still prey animals; there's always a chance they will behave unexpectedly. No matter how well your horse ties, there's always a chance he will pull back. If the horse has had a bad experience tying in the past, then he's especially likely to pull.

The point of the Clip (and I'd assume it's the same for the Blocker, though I have less experience with that) is not to release the pressure -- it's to cushion the hard stop. When the horse sits back, the resistance of the rope spreads out the pressure over a longer period of time, so it's not one solid impact. Think of it like a helmet. A helmet cushions the impact of your head hitting the ground by spreading the force over a longer period of time.

The Clip is not a substitute for teaching the horse to tie. It's just a simple safety device. You can set it to release, or you can set it to hold, whatever you prefer. Either way, you cut out the hard stop. That's the point. Whether or not you choose to allow a complete release is up to you.

Neither the Clip nor the Blocker will keep your horse from learning to tie reliably (when used correctly), but I'll tell you what WILL -- pain. Hitting a hard stop is painful to the horse. It's a bit of a shock to them, and can cause even a well-trained horse to panic.

[2bee]

There is really little point to try and discuss with those people who think TRAINING, TRAINING, TRAINING is the answer. The either cant understand basic horsemanship or dont have enough experience with horses to understand.

[flashy]

Beethoven, I apologize if I came across sounding like I was saying you had not handle the situation the best way possible. Sounds like you have done a great job. And I am so glad that both you and your horse are doing better. She is very lucky to have you:yes:

Sithly thanks for taking the time to explain the principle behind the blocker ring. That makes more sense to me. And in my post I was not talking about any of you because I have no way of knowing how any of you have actually dealt with the situations. I have just seen too many people that have crosstie issues, not go back to the basics of tying in a stall. But they continue to crosstie and continue to have wrecks most all of them resort to the twine and quick release snaps. When I started working in high level show training barns which has been several years now, all the horses must learn to tie. NO if and or buts, babies included. I actually had a hard time with it because I did not like the horses standing so long tied, and it is really scary watching them thrash around, but they do learn patience and to stand quietly. I haven't seen one yet that has not learned. But no I don't have experience with rescues or abused horses, so I am sure that is different.

2bee I am sorry you found my post CONTRIVERSAL and I assure you that it is not just the TRAIN, TRAIN, TRAIN people that maybe have no basic understanding of horsemanship or maybe just not enough experience ;)

[2bee]

Beethoven, I apologize if I came across sounding like I was saying you had not handle the situation the best way possible. Sounds like you have done a great job. And I am so glad that both you and your horse are doing better. She is very lucky to have you:yes:

Sithly thanks for taking the time to explain the principle behind the blocker ring. That makes more sense to me. And in my post I was not talking about any of you because I have no way of knowing how any of you have actually dealt with the situations. I have just seen too many people that have crosstie issues, not go back to the basics of tying in a stall. But they continue to crosstie and continue to have wrecks most all of them resort to the twine and quick release snaps. When I started working in high level show training barns which has been several years now, all the horses must learn to tie. NO if and or buts, babies included. I actually had a hard time with it because I did not like the horses standing so long tied, and it is really scary watching them thrash around, but they do learn patience and to stand quietly. I haven't seen one yet that has not learned. But no I don't have experience with rescues or abused horses, so I am sure that is different.

2bee I am sorry you found my post CONTRIVERSAL and I assure you that it is not just the TRAIN, TRAIN, TRAIN people that maybe have no basic understanding of horsemanship or maybe just not enough experience ;)

No need to apologize. Your admitted experience is not as extensive as mine, we just have different views in reference to those levels of experience. Now that Sithly explained the BTR/Clip, you have the necessary information to help you understand their proper usage.

Something to think about should you ever deal with a horse who has broken away.........you're not training them, you're "re-training" them. You can not erase their memory, they will always remember in that moment of panic they CAN escape if they try hard enough.

[flashy]

2bee, I have dealt with many breakaways. I am responsible for the initial training of around 15 yearlings a year. 4 of those babies are going to the Paint World Show in November!

Im not sure how this thread turned into a debate on who has the most experience, but other than what I told you about not having experience with abused horses and my reference to where I work NOW, you have no idea what my experience level is. You don't know anything about me! Other than I have a different opionion than you. :confused: GEEZ!!!

[Dalemma]

You miss the point.

If you need to move a horse considerable distance, there are really no alternatives except to trailer him. But there are other, safer ways to keep a horse from wandering off.

If something out of the blue happens and a horse panics (and even Arabian wonder horses who are calm in a sea of 1400 horses can panic), he may run off if he's ground tied or set back hard and perhaps break a single tie. I've seen both those situations and the horses came through unscathed or with minor injuries. But because of the way cross ties restrain, a panicked horse can flip over, which can leave it badly injured or dead. I don't care to see that again, thank you.

It's not about TRAINING. TRAINING. TRAINING. TRAINING for me. My horses all tie well and ground tie, too. I don't use cross ties because I don't think they're very safe. There are enough ways for horses to injure themselves. No need to offer them another, IMO.

Thanks You explained it better than I did.

I have to heard too many horror stories about cross ties.

I think the point that I was trying to make is that why not tie your horses the safest way possible..........I also tie with a clip that is designed to protect a horse that is freaking out.

Dalemma

[2bee]

2bee, I have dealt with many breakaways. I am responsible for the initial training of around 15 yearlings a year. 4 of those babies are going to the Paint World Show in November!

Im not sure how this thread turned into a debate on who has the most experience, but other than what I told you about not having experience with abused horses and my reference to where I work NOW, you have no idea what my experience level is. You don't know anything about me! Other than I have a different opionion than you. :confused: GEEZ!!!

I thought we were talking about using the BTR/Clip in the correct manner.

[katarine]

I'm glad everyone was all right, all things considered. Could have been a considerably larger wreck.

I've known a few-very few- horses I consider to be incapable of learning to hard-tie, or cross tie firmly...safely...they have enough baggage that I believe that sufficiently stressed...they are leaving the building, or breaking their neck, or something. One was a broodmare that I think had a screw loose...another a good using mare with a past trainer/rider KNOWN for assaulting horses. Bad stuff happens that sometimes cannot always be undone.

OP...please consider setting her up to succeed by using something like the Blocker Tie Ring. I thought they were hooey until I watched one of Clinton's insufferable infomercials about it. It makes sense and is a super way to help a claustrophic horse cope in a mental bind.

And she who espouses TRAINING TRAINING TRAINING can't currently ask her main mount to walk down the trail the first few miles without pulling her arms off. Look it up ;)

[YankeeLawyer]

What are turtle ties, blocker rings, etc.????

Pictures? Links?

I just read an article suggesting that instead of putting the baling twine / string between the tie and wall, put it between the tie and the horse, so that exactly what you describe (tie swing around violently, hitting horse in face) is less likely to happen, since the string BETWEEN the horse and the tie can also break.


I was taught to put the twine between the tie and the horse. I think people sometimes use the twine at the wall thinking that if the horse gets loose, it will be easier to catch. But the last thing I want is a horse that is freaking out with long ropes dangling all around it.

[2bee]

Oh you are full of shit girlfriend. :rolleyes: In case you've been under a rock for the last month, my horse was diagnosed with ULCERS - severe ones - bleeding. Her crazy behavior has completely gone away since getting the proper medical treatment. I guess you tend to get frantic and panicky when you have painful bleeding ulcers.

For your info - after a whole week off I got on last night - loose rein and hacked all over the property. In fact, we didn't trot at all because I had my old man dog with me and I wanted him to be able to keep up ;)

Funny that in all the years and all the horses we've owned or trained, there was never one that wouldn't tie hard and fast. I guess we were just lucky and hit the gene pool jackpot??? shrug

Well that's just stupid. The percentage of horses who won't tie is pretty small. How many horses could you have possibly owned? I would guess not enough to make a dent in the population.

So basically what you're saying is, since you have'nt owned a horse who would'nt tie.......they dont exist? I believe further intelligent conversation would be impossible with that mentality.

[katarine]

Ahh, I love the smell of BS in the morning. And it's not in my zip code, either lol.


So if I and others on this thread...HAVE known a FEW...just a FEW... horses whose past or wiring made them incapable of handling the claustrophobia of realizing they were held hard and fast...those couple of horses I knew...and others knew..well they must be utter figments of our imaginations, failures of ours and others...because you haven't seen it with your own eyeballs, it just can't be true. Your own narrow frame of experience trumps the collective. That's an interesting way of thinking, if nothing else.

Remember guys...only a few years ago this one who says they can ALL learn to tie....thought that the dock of a horse's tail was one long bone. I keep bringing it up in situations like this because I think it speaks volumes for the relative depth of her reflecting pool. She's learning, but she's got a ways to go ;)

Our dear A2/Two Simple, Summer of the Walking Horse Wailing, 2006:

I still do not understand the tail set. The tail has a rigid BONE running down the middle of it - about 18" long, or longer. So I cannot see how cutting the ligaments on either side of the dock would make 7 inches of the bone stand straight up and then the rest of the bone hang straight down at a 90 degree angle from that short piece standing up in the air. The tail one is one single, solid piece with no joints in it. It would seem to me that BOTH the bone would have to be broken and the liagement would have to also be cut.

[flashy]

Funny that in all the years and all the horses we've owned or trained, there was never one that wouldn't tie hard and fast. I guess we were just lucky and hit the gene pool jackpot??? shrug

I still agree with you Aventera Two, In the past 10 years, I have not come across one that has not got it either. I am not saying it always comes easy, BECAUSE IT DOESN'T. I have seen a few that it has taken quiet awhile. I am just wondering if the ones who have horses that don't get it, give up too easily or if they try to groom, tack, etc before the horse has a chance to get comfortable being tied. My wee ones I tie everyday, starting with 1 hour and work up from there. They are tied in the front of the stall so they can see all that is going on around them. Tractors, gators, other horses everything goes on as normal, we never tippy toe around the spooky ones. When I go in to groom and handle I always untie until I know they are standing absolutly relaxed. When they are totally relaxed being tied then I'll start working with them while tied. If I have one that really wants to thrash around. We have a "Tree of Knowledge" Big oak tree, with a chain suspended from the branch far enough away from the tree that the horse can't get wrapped around it, or even touch it. It is so amazing to see the transformation. The farm I worked at before was a large QH/Appaloosa Show barn, they used the same system but these were all older horses coming in for training with various backgrounds. They learned to tie.

I stated 10 years because before that I had worked in a few places that did not teach the tying and that is where I developed my opinion that allowing a horse to break away only causes more breaking away. So I have seen both methods used and that is how I have come to my conclusion. I will give though, I will not go so far as to say ALL HORSES WILL TIE, because would be foolish. But I will always feel that too many give up too quick and don't give the horse a chance.

[okggo]

Glad your horse is okay!

I use breakaway clasps (cheap things that break way too easily - like if you drop them on the ground too hard). I also ALWAYS leave a lead rope on them and generally if I can I have an end. Basically the only time I'm not holding them is if I'm picking hind feet and even then I've found a rope long enough to allow it.

My theory, cross ties for me are a convenience in that it keeps the horse from moving away when I am grooming the rear side. But I've seen enough accidents involving them to have no comfort not having a secondary catch device.

[Dune]

Trust me, folks, there ARE horses that for whatever reason canNOT be trustworthy "tie-ers". I've only owned one in my life and he was just a bit of a nut in some ways. He had a "panic button" where if something scared him, he'd get the heck out of dodge and ask questions later. Strange, but true. Thankfully, he's the only one like that I've ever owned.

[rivenoak]

I was taught to put the twine between the tie and the horse. I think people sometimes use the twine at the wall thinking that if the horse gets loose, it will be easier to catch. But the last thing I want is a horse that is freaking out with long ropes dangling all around it.

That's the way I was taught as well.

Those dangling ropes are very dangerous to horse & people in the way.

I'm really surprised at all of these folks who do it the other way.

[Deloris - New York]

I think everyone has lost the original question or reason for the post.

Our opinions are greatly valued, other wise she wouldn't have posted in the first place. Funny how we get out of hand.

To the OP, do what you feel is the safest for your horse.

Been around big barns, show barns, backyard barns and have now owned our farm for over 10. All the horses here cross tie and no we have not had a situation as of yet but can and most likely will happen (if said horses are tied most of the time). I've seen lots of accidents from ties not only in the barn but at shows while hooked to trailers. There is alway the "freak" element of the horsey mind and since we don't know what this "freaky" element is, we'll never really know when to expect it. Seen a horse flip over, break away and run but they weren't mine nor were they untrained. They were all trained and reinforsed by same trainer, same barns. Just depends on the horse. Show me a bomb proof horse, that doesn't have something to freak them out and I'll give you my farm.

Just listen to the advise of everyone that says use the safety way to be sure, why take a chance. Reinforsement is always good but doesn't always work 100% of the time, so keep her safe and don't take an unnecessary risk.

Glad you are both ok.

Ever heard the expression, #### happens? Believe me, it really does.;)

[citydog]

It's all about TRAINING. TRAINING. TRAINING. TRAINING.


Anyone who thinks "TRAINING TRAINING TRAINING" can ever 100% override millions of years of evolved instinctual behavior is incredibly naïve. Obviously, every horse should learn how to tie, and you might well get a 99.999% reliability rate through excellent training, but there is *always* the possibility that a circumstance will arise where an animal will revert to its instinctual response. Always.

[Sithly]

Anyone who thinks "TRAINING TRAINING TRAINING" can ever 100% override millions of years of evolved instinctual behavior is incredibly naïve. Obviously, every horse should learn how to tie, and you might well get a 99.999% reliability rate through excellent training, but there is *always* the possibility that a circumstance will arise where an animal will revert to its instinctual response. Always.

Word. :yes:

[flashy]

Anyone who thinks "TRAINING TRAINING TRAINING" can ever 100% override millions of years of evolved instinctual behavior is incredibly naïve. Obviously, every horse should learn how to tie, and you might well get a 99.999% reliability rate through excellent training, but there is *always* the possibility that a circumstance will arise where an animal will revert to its instinctual response. Always.

I believe we all agree. How could we not.