Leg problems in over 80% of shod horses

[BornToRide]

Findings for every horse owner and professional to ponder....I bet if all equine vets would do this (of course while also taking the horses activity levels into account) they would find very similar trends:A review of my clinical re-cords in equine veterinary practice over the past ten years has revealed that 85% of hoof and leg ailments of all kinds have occurred in shod horses, including catastrophic limb fractures. Yet the prevalence of shod horses amongst my clientele during that time was only 48%.The Unfettered Foot (http://www.easycareinc.com/Education/articles/unfettered.aspx)- Dr. Teskey

[Lieslot]

Well, I must be the lucky owner then of a horse that has been shod since he was 3 yrs old (now 14) and never in his life had his shoes pulled, not even for a couple of days.
He's a happy camper on his feet and not had any hoof/shoeing-related lamenesses, other then a torn ligament but that incident I don't relate to shoeing.
This horse has feet to die for ;), hard like rock and grows a ton of foot.

My other guy has been in & out of shoes and sadly, his feet aren't the best.

I guess the numbers, as in this vet's experience won't lie for it, nevertheless I personally still think it entirely depends on the horse and the farrier you have ;) and often the way the horse is trained/ridden or the type of carreer it has. So many factors involved.

[BornToRide]

Of course you would take all of that into consideration when reseraching such data. Also keep in mind that many people just assume for example that arthritis is just a fact of becoming older. What if it is not? What if this is actually caused by the management the horse experienced in his younger life, thankks to shoeing and a diet that promotes inflmamatory processes in the body?

In addition many horse folks do not recognize related problems and often attribute them to something else. They are either not educated enough, or simply chose to ignore a possible connection.

We should be better observers. Compare what we are seeing with other horses take notes and look for trends, because trends show us what's going on.

[Catersun]

Although I think it is really interesting... knowing the climate of this board I believe that it will be taken as an inflammatory statement and I look foward to watching this trainwreck as it happens.....

Out of curiosty what was the exercise stress the injured/noninjured/shod/notshod horses were under.... there is a LOT more at play then just looking at those two numbers. If ya dare.. could you post the link to the rest of the what I hope is an article... I'd love to read more. Ah never mind.. I see the link now.... It's just in the same color the quote is.
*puts a bag of popcorn in the microwave*

[seeuatx]

That's a perfect example of Confusing Cause and Effect Logic, though. Saying that Example A and B occur regularly together, therefore A must be the cause of B... it's a complete fallacy.

Was there a control group? How was this "study" conducted? Did the examples of shod and unshod horses live in the same environments and have the same training/ exercise programs? Too many variables can come into play. The logic that was used is faulty to say the least.

[rcloisonne]

Findings for every horse owner and professional to ponder....I bet if all equine vets would do this (of course while also taking the horses activity levels into account) they would find very similar trends:A review of my clinical re-cords in equine veterinary practice over the past ten years has revealed that 85% of hoof and leg ailments of all kinds have occurred in shod horses, including catastrophic limb fractures. Yet the prevalence of shod horses amongst my clientele during that time was only 48%.The Unfettered Foot (http://www.easycareinc.com/Education/articles/unfettered.aspx)- Dr. Teskey
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Dr. Teskey employs the same logic as Katy's Watts' "bread as the source of all evil" post on the soy is bad thread:

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=169332&page=5

Wonder if it ever occurred to Dr. Teskey that shod horses sustain more injuries because they're used in athletic competition far more often than unshod horses? Probably not. :rolleyes:

[Kementari]

Wonder if it ever occurred to Dr. Teskey that shod horses sustain more injuries because they're used in athletic competition far more often than unshod horses? Probably not. :rolleyes:

Precisely. :yes:

Remember, there are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.

[Ambrey]

Remember, there are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.

Statistics do not lie. People lie (or are mistaken) about what statistics mean.

Indeed, this is not research. This is an example of looking for what you'd like to see and finding it- something that almost anyone can do if they try hard enough! :D

Research employs the scientific method. Start with a hypothesis and test the hypothesis. Research takes into consideration known issues- researcher bias among them (for example, he is using only his own practice. What if he is biased in diagnosing problems in shod vs. unshod horses?). Selection bias is a huge issue, and why it is so difficult to do research when you can't randomly assign categories (almost all things are self selected. Horses used harder tend to be shod).

Research ALWAYS includes the limitations of the analysis.

For what it's worth, in my highly scientific study of my sample of 2, both previously unshod horses required shoes due to significant issues. So now we have two equally valid studies that contradict each other ;)

For what it's worth, there are statistical analysis techniques that can be used on this type of data that would be more elucidative. One could even correct for the work levels of the horses, environment they are kept in, etc if he had records of such things.

[pines4equines]

However, there is something to this barefoot thing...

When I was a kid in the 70s, I rode at this one barn that all school horses were barefoot due to the owner's financial contraints, really. There was no lameness...None. I was there from 1969 - 1980. No lameness in these school horses.

I also worked concurrently from aprox. 1973 - 1985 as a show/race/breeding groom at various other barns in the area where everything was shod and there was alot of fussing around with all types of shoes to keep these things going? Some of these show horses used alot less than the above school horses.

When I was a kid, I could never figure out why all this lameness and sometimes in very young horses where this school barn had no lameness and school horses going until their mid 30s.

Now, almost 40 years later, my horses are all barefoot but they do not work hard at all. One thing I do question about barefoot is if I was showing in the jumpers and was required to do a timed final on grass and it had just rained, I would prefer shoes as a rider.

I also think some horses are more likely to be lame with shoes and some horses could just go forever, do whatever you want, whenever you want and you could throw a set of shoes on the sucker that Herman Munster would be jealous of and that horse would stay sound. Who knows? I'd also be curious to study conformation in regards to shoeing and non shoeing.

I don't think there is one answer to this and it'll be several years before we see the solution.

[J.D.]

Findings for every horse owner and professional to ponder....I bet if all equine vets would do this (of course while also taking the horses activity levels into account) they would find very similar trends:A review of my clinical re-cords in equine veterinary practice over the past ten years has revealed that 85% of hoof and leg ailments of all kinds have occurred in shod horses, including catastrophic limb fractures. Yet the prevalence of shod horses amongst my clientele during that time was only 48%.The Unfettered Foot (http://www.easycareinc.com/Education/articles/unfettered.aspx)- Dr. Teskey


SO?

You have to much time on your hands and your are not riding your horse(s) enough:yes::eek::lol:

[shawneeAcres]

Well, one must take into consideration that perhaps many of the hroses he sees are broodmares, retired, etc and would not be shod and would not be in work, therefore less incidence of leg problems. Usually a shod horse is in work. Now I love to be able to keep a horse barefoot, but the harsh reality is that, once I leave my fam I have no idea of what sort of footing, rocks etc I am going to be faced with at a competition, hence many of mine are shod. However, I do pull shoes in the winter and many of the schoolie types can go unshod here, but they also aren't being worked nearly as strenuously as a horse that is regularly competing.

[LarkspurCO]

:eek:

Oh, pu-leeeeez!

[J.D.]

:eek:

Oh, pu-leeeeez!


Exactly!!

[pj]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Wonder if it ever occurred to Dr. Teskey that shod horses sustain more injuries because they're used in athletic competition far more often than unshod horses? Probably not. :rolleyes:

BINGO!!!!! I guess I'm one lucky person, too!! Well I really am come to think about it.
So far in my 47 years of owning horses, trail, hunter jumper, combined I've never had a horse lame period with the exception of one with an absess who was barefoot by the way.
The others have always been shod year round.

[Tom Stovall]

BornToRide in gray, stuff deleted

Findings for every horse owner and professional to ponder....

The recounting of a slanted observation is not a "finding," it's just an opportunity to add to one's stockpile of stupidity if one gives it any credence.

I bet if all equine vets would do this (of course while also taking the horses activity levels into account) they would find very similar trends:

A review of my clinical re-cords in equine veterinary practice over the past ten years has revealed that 85% of hoof and leg ailments of all kinds have occurred in shod horses, including catastrophic limb fractures. Yet the prevalence of shod horses amongst my clientele during that time was only 48%.

LMAO! During the years I worked as a track plater, 100% of all the hoof and leg aliments occurred on shod horses - which fact is just as meaningless as Tesky's nonsense.

[BornToRide]

Took a 20 + year old QH mare out of shoes yesterday. Nothing majorly wrong with the hooves and the trim per se, but the horse was short stepping and did not look comfortable. Has done this for quite some time. The non-dominant left front was more contracted , as it often happens in smaller footed , halter horse type QH which are then labeled as being "clubby". Owner told me though that she works out of it when ridden which at first made me think it might be more muscle related.

I checked her muscles in the shoulders and could not really find anything wrong there that may have accounted for the short stepping. I told the owner that I suspected the shoes more than anything.

The mare immediately improved after the removal of the shoes - much better movement. I checked on her again to make sure I wasn't just imagining things and wanted the owner to watch her too and sure enough - the mare now has a much longer stride and is nicely heel loading as she should. Still not 100%, but at least 80% improved.

Now I am hoping to convince to keep shoes off this mare for the rest of her life. I think she will be much better without any. :yes:

This sure made my day today :)

[ThirdCharm]

I have also noticed that school horses tend to be wonderfully sound when compared to their racing/showing counterparts. Oddly enough this holds true whether they are shod or not. The one thing that DOES seem to be consistent is that they also tend to be smaller and more sturdily built, and while they put in more hours they do not jump as high or run as fast as their fancier brethren.

I also agree that it is more likely that shod horses are "out there doing" instead of being pasture puffs, and are therefore more likely to sustain injuries for that reason alone.

The vet in the OP must have missed the Scientific Method lecture.... you'd think they'd give it more than once!

Jennifer

[retreadeventer]

Most people don't know what lame is anyhow. Watch any run of the mill schooling show on any given Saturday all over the country.

[pattnic]

Remember, there are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.

Statistics do not lie. People lie (or are mistaken) about what statistics mean.

Or, as my stats prof told us: Figures don't lie, but liars figure.

[magnolia73]

A review of my clinical re-cords in equine veterinary practice over the past ten years has revealed that 85% of hoof and leg ailments of all kinds have occurred in shod horses, including catastrophic limb fractures. Yet the prevalence of shod horses amongst my clientele during that time was only 48%.

Could it be that shod horses tend to do more than barefoot horses? IE, most racehorses, eventers, jumpers- sport horses are shod than barefoot. And the typical barefoot horse seems to have a less stressful job in general. Light trail riding, beginner lessons etc.

[wateryglen]

Leg problems in 80% of ALL HORSES!!! :rolleyes::p

I don't like people who open a thread trying to pick a fight or start a trainwreck but alas.....I will watch & drink my mojitos!!! :D
Why can't we all just be friends and respect each others opinions?!!

[Kementari]

Statistics do not lie. People lie (or are mistaken) about what statistics mean.

Semantics. ;) My point (and Disraeli's point ;)) was that you can make the numbers appear to say just about anything you'd like, if you know what you are doing. Or if you are totally ignorant - which is what this vet's "research" seems to indicate... :eek:

[jetsmom]

That's like having a survey that finds that " 80% of starving horses, in abuse cases, are barefoot". So I guess having shoes makes horses process food more efficiently? Or could it possibly be that people that starve horses are too cheap to provide hoof care/shoes?

The conclusions that shoes cause leg injuries is not taking cause and effect into the equation. What type of work was the horse doing (most performance horses are shod)? Did they shoe the horse because of an injury (ie wedge pads)?

[Bogie]

Most people don't know what lame is anyhow. Watch any run of the mill schooling show on any given Saturday all over the country.

My thoughts exactly. I rode plenty of "sound" school horses as a kid. I'd like to know if they'd still look sound to my more educated eye today. Probably not.

In my scientific study of shoes/barefoot . . . I had my Trakehner barefoot for 12 weeks while regrowing his feet (lost a lot of hoof wall in the early summer, as wet/dry cycling had wreaked havoc on his feet). After 3 months his feet looked pretty good, but he still had very thin soles and was uncomfortable on anything except grass . . . put front shoes on him two weeks ago (he's always been barefoot behind) and he has happy feet! Moves MUCH better, ready to go and full of himself. Shoes rock.

[Bluey]

That's a perfect example of Confusing Cause and Effect Logic, though. Saying that Example A and B occur regularly together, therefore A must be the cause of B... it's a complete fallacy.

Was there a control group? How was this "study" conducted? Did the examples of shod and unshod horses live in the same environments and have the same training/ exercise programs? Too many variables can come into play. The logic that was used is faulty to say the least.

That fellow is typical of a theory in seach of a validation.

He is manipulating data so it shows what he wants to prove.

You can "prove" that the earth is flat by measuring a small flat area only.:p

[J Swan]

[quote=wateryglen;3560217I will watch & drink my mojitos!!! :D
[/quote]


My new favorite is Chocolate Temptations. But it doesn't go well with Mango Rum. At least not on an empty stomach.


I bet all the horse owners who shoe their horses voted for Bush, too. So the percentage of horse owners who shoe their horses and who have horses with leg problems has a direct correlation to the aw heck what was the question? :D

[PiaffeDreams]

Took a 20 + year old QH mare out of shoes yesterday. Nothing majorly wrong with the hooves and the trim per se, but the horse was short stepping and did not look comfortable. ....
The mare immediately improved after the removal of the shoes - much better movement. I checked on her again to make sure I wasn't just imagining things and wanted the owner to watch her too and sure enough - the mare now has a much longer stride and is nicely heel loading as she should. Still not 100%, but at least 80% improved.

Now I am hoping to convince to keep shoes off this mare for the rest of her life. I think she will be much better without any. :yes:

This sure made my day today :)

I've got a pair of really great expensive running shoes. Nothing wrong with them. They fit, look fine, and even feel fine standing around, but when I run in them, I'm not comfortable. I take them off and immediately I'm a lot "sounder". I guess I shouldn't wear any shoes at all anymore. :cool:

[creseida]

Hmm... my old mare Cressy had to wear shoes all the way around due to pre-existing damage to 2 of her hoof walls. She was sound and ridden until she was 26. No lameness or arthritis to speak of.

When she contracted EPM last year, she could not balance well enough for my farrier to shoe her back feet, so she went without. During her treatment for EPM, she had to be put down. Why? Not because of the EPM directly, but because her damaged back foot could not withstand the pressure of her standing on it most of the time without the support of the shoe. The hoof wall collapsed and cracked open and she abscessed.

Her other back leg was not strong enough to support her with the EPM, so she spent most of the time resting on the one foot.

Once she abscessed, she didn't have a back leg to stand on. Had I been able to keep a back shoe on her, the foot probably would not have failed and I might still have her today. I euthanised her last year. She would have been 28 this year.
-----------
My OTTB Chuck goes barefoot fine. He wears his feet well and winds up getting lightly trimmed 2x year. The farrier checks him every time he comes out and says, "He's fine, put 'im away."

My KWPN mare Sassy, OTOH, cannot go without shoes at all. I tried pulling her back shoes and within 2 weeks she had worn the hoof wall down completely BELOW the level of the sole. She was not flat-footed, her sole was BELOW the level of the hoof wall. It didn't break away - it WORE DOWN smoothly, as if it had been filed away. My farrier was just dumbstruck, he'd enver seen anything quite like it before and had a helluva time putting shoes back on.

I guess I should just pull her shoes and let her wear her feet down to bloody nubs?

[Miss-O]

Wonder if it ever occurred to Dr. Teskey that shod horses sustain more injuries because they're used in athletic competition far more often than unshod horses? Probably not. :rolleyes:

To add....how many people use shoes as therapy for a pre-existing problem? It's not that far of a stretch to say that those horses may still have residual problems or a tendency to have lameness problems, regardless of if the shoes alleviate some of their pain.

Personally I think this guy is full of it and a vet should be educated enough to know what constitutes a viable study vs. bull. So he's lost credibility with me already.

But it would be interesting to see a wide range study done the CORRECT way on this matter.

[Guilherme]

Findings for every horse owner and professional to ponder....I bet if all equine vets would do this (of course while also taking the horses activity levels into account) they would find very similar trends:A review of my clinical re-cords in equine veterinary practice over the past ten years has revealed that 85% of hoof and leg ailments of all kinds have occurred in shod horses, including catastrophic limb fractures. Yet the prevalence of shod horses amongst my clientele during that time was only 48%.The Unfettered Foot (http://www.easycareinc.com/Education/articles/unfettered.aspx)- Dr. Teskey

I suspect that this is because horses that are shod are more likely to be involved in more demanding athletic pursuits.

We certainly just shoe the horses that are doing something.

G.

[LuvMyNSH]

At the barn I used to work at 100% of the lameness issues were in shod horses.

That's because the only unshod horses were the broodmares and babies.

Hmmm...now that I think about it, 100% of the lameness issues were in horses that wore bits! And treed saddles! Both these things are clearly causing horses to go lame. :D

[Foxtrot's]

Who IS Dr Teskey?

Aren't most horses vets see lame?

[poltroon]

Well, one must take into consideration that perhaps many of the hroses he sees are broodmares, retired, etc and would not be shod and would not be in work, therefore less incidence of leg problems.

Or the vet isn't called, and the lameness goes away on its own.

When I lived in the city, the horses were all in work and if the horse was lame, the vet was coming by anyway (there were so many horses) and so any lameness that lasted more than a day or two saw a vet. Now that I have horses on 24x7 turnout, not in work, or otherwise no big deal to just give the horse a week off, I have the luxury of "wait and see" on 24/7 turnout - and I was surprised to see how many things resolved on their own, in about the same time frame that I would expect if a vet were called and we were to wrap nightly, etc.

[equinelaw]

Critical thinking skills alrm went off when title said 80% and quote said 85%. Already proof of misreading statement and not reading for comprehension. 5% of horse got sound just by posting the message!:)

[Kareen]

While I do agree there is nothing conclusive about any of it, I defintely think management deserves thought at any time and it would be nice to see a study where comparable groups are evaluated (e.g. group of horses doing the same work a) shod b) unshod)
It only makes sense that an extra weight added to the most distal part of an animal's limb that is designed for fast accelleration will cause significantly different impact over time.
Scientific research should be directed to this question. Whether or not this colleague's statements have been taken out of contest I can not say, at least I nowhere read the conclusion that shoeing per se was causing lameness. What is so laughable about someone who spends time thinking how things could possibly be improved - I don't know.

[J Swan]

5% of horse got sound just by posting the message!:)

:lol::lol:

[goeslikestink]

or could it be that shoeing horses show up the problems of the unshod horse over 80% out of 100%
many people dont know there horses are lame unshod becuase the horse doesnt nod
as if unsound on all four feet they wouldnt notice
but if shod and addressed with corrective shoeing then perhaps it would

always two sides to a debate and not just one

[Brave2Xrails]

Maybe there is just one farrier in Dr. Tesky's area and he is really, really crappy.

[Tom Stovall]

Brave2Xrails in gray

Maybe there is just one farrier in Dr. Tesky's area and he is really, really crappy.

Since we already know there's at least one veterinarian in Dr. Tesky's area that's "really, really, crappy," it could be that his slice of the sandpile attracts crappy. :)

Tesky is the darling of the lunatic fringe of the barefoot movement; he's so far out of touch with reality that even some hardcore barefooters find his rantings to be embarrassing.

[IFG]

However, there is something to this barefoot thing...

When I was a kid in the 70s, I rode at this one barn that all school horses were barefoot due to the owner's financial contraints, really. There was no lameness...None. I was there from 1969 - 1980. No lameness in these school horses.

I also worked concurrently from aprox. 1973 - 1985 as a show/race/breeding groom at various other barns in the area where everything was shod and there was alot of fussing around with all types of shoes to keep these things going? Some of these show horses used alot less than the above school horses.

When I was a kid, I could never figure out why all this lameness and sometimes in very young horses where this school barn had no lameness and school horses going until their mid 30s.

Now, almost 40 years later, my horses are all barefoot but they do not work hard at all. One thing I do question about barefoot is if I was showing in the jumpers and was required to do a timed final on grass and it had just rained, I would prefer shoes as a rider.

I also think some horses are more likely to be lame with shoes and some horses could just go forever, do whatever you want, whenever you want and you could throw a set of shoes on the sucker that Herman Munster would be jealous of and that horse would stay sound. Who knows? I'd also be curious to study conformation in regards to shoeing and non shoeing.

I don't think there is one answer to this and it'll be several years before we see the solution.

Might also be attributable to what we call the "healthy worker" effect in epidemiology. If the horse has a problem he either gets shod or goes down the road. The horses left that are barefoot are sound. However, this is not necessarily due to an association between the shoeing habits and the soundness.

[camohn]

Findings for every horse owner and professional to ponder....I bet if all equine vets would do this (of course while also taking the horses activity levels into account) they would find very similar trends:A review of my clinical re-cords in equine veterinary practice over the past ten years has revealed that 85% of hoof and leg ailments of all kinds have occurred in shod horses, including catastrophic limb fractures. Yet the prevalence of shod horses amongst my clientele during that time was only 48%.The Unfettered Foot (http://www.easycareinc.com/Education/articles/unfettered.aspx)- Dr. Teskey

My personaly gut feeling would be this: first of all some farriers are better than others. We have quite a few farriers around me and only 2 would I actually let shoe my horse. The other is that I would take bets that the shod horses are shod because they are generally in a lot harder work than the unshod ones. I would only take stock in the study if it was done on shod and unshod horses that were in the same amount of work for equal comparison.Lots of the horses here are unshod. BUT of the ones in regular work: 4 are shod all around (get shoes pulled in the winter when out of work), one is in front shoes, one is unshod and front feet are starting to crack/needs to go into front shoes and 2 are and will stay unshod.

[Kementari]

Brave2Xrails in gray

Maybe there is just one farrier in Dr. Tesky's area and he is really, really crappy.

Since we already know there's at least one veterinarian in Dr. Tesky's area that's "really, really, crappy," it could be that his slice of the sandpile attracts crappy. :)


*Lemonade on monitor alert!* :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[sid]

This could support my personal experience that 80% of the farriers I've seen over the years aren't that good at it -- whether it be trimming OR shoeing properly.

Lucky for me, for the last 15 years I've been fortunate to have one who is among the 20% who are outstanding...and whose shoeing skill is the reason my horses (many I've had from birth and are now in their late teens), after years of hard work, continue to stay sound.

[Mav226]

Do they have leg problems because they are shod or are they shod because they have leg problems?

Is it possible that shod horses tend to do more demanding work which might precipitate leg problems?

While there are exceptions, I can think of lots of young or only moderately active horses who are unshod. But most racehorses or competitive show horses are shod. Seems like a pretty unfair comparison....apples to oranges, you might say.

[flyingchange]

Took a 20 + year old QH mare out of shoes yesterday. Nothing majorly wrong with the hooves and the trim per se, but the horse was short stepping and did not look comfortable. Has done this for quite some time. The non-dominant left front was more contracted , as it often happens in smaller footed , halter horse type QH which are then labeled as being "clubby". Owner told me though that she works out of it when ridden which at first made me think it might be more muscle related.

I checked her muscles in the shoulders and could not really find anything wrong there that may have accounted for the short stepping. I told the owner that I suspected the shoes more than anything.

The mare immediately improved after the removal of the shoes - much better movement. I checked on her again to make sure I wasn't just imagining things and wanted the owner to watch her too and sure enough - the mare now has a much longer stride and is nicely heel loading as she should. Still not 100%, but at least 80% improved.

Now I am hoping to convince to keep shoes off this mare for the rest of her life. I think she will be much better without any. :yes:

This sure made my day today :)

:lol::lol::lol::dead::dead::rolleyes:

[altjaeger]

Now that you've successfully trashed this study, please tell this non-horseowner, are shoes even necessary if you never let the horse onto anything but grassy fields and dirt arenas? Along the Gulf Coast, rocks are pretty much non-existent.

[Brave2Xrails]

Now that you've successfully trashed this study, please tell this non-horseowner, are shoes even necessary if you never let the horse onto anything but grassy fields and dirt arenas? Along the Gulf Coast, rocks are pretty much non-existent.

I don't see how members pointing out design flaws in a study, flaws that can (and appear to) lead to serious questions about the validity of the findings, is "trash[ing the] study"...

As for shoes being necessary if the horse is only on certain footing: I'd say it depends on the horse. Everybody on this board probably has a story about some hony they once knew who had hooves of steel and could do a hundred mile endurance over a rock strewn hard packed trail and never bat an eye. On the other hand, my buddy has a retired TB who has feet that are the consistency of feta cheese. He goes from his grass pasture to his well-bedded stall and back to pasture again but if he didn't have shoes his feet would crumble and blow away in a mild breeze.

[gottalovethecowgirl]

I agree with barefoot! I think it is the best thing that has happened to all of my, and my friends horses. I think she is right that the circulation of the hoof does suffer, and with that the shock absorption to the hoof also.

"There are more than a dozen ways that shoes are known to damage the feet, legs, and circulatory system of the horse (see A Lifetime of Soundness by Dr. Hiltrud Strasser). The worst damage comes from loss of circulation in the hoof, and loss of shock absorption.

Circulation: When the horse steps down on his foot, the cone-shaped hoof wall flexes wider at the bottom; when he lifts it off the ground, it returns to its narrower "closed" shape. This spread-and-squeeze acts like a pump, pulling blood into the foot with each step.

Horsehoes are nailed onto the foot when it is in the closed, off-the-ground position. With a shoe on, the hoof can't flex, so the pump doesn't work; not enough blood and nutrients are pulled into the foot to build and maintain strong tissues. Therefore, the quality of sole, wall, and frog is poor; injuries are slow to heal; and the white line deteriorates over time and becomes stretchy.

A rough estimate is that a medium-sized, barefoot horse pumps a gallon (4 liters) through its four feet in about 20 strides.

Shock absorption: In the tough yet elastic barefoot hoof, the flexing of the weighted hoof can absorb as much as 2,000 lbs. of concussion. But the horseshoe holds the foot inflexible, canceling out 75% of its ability to absorb shock. Instead, the concussion goes on up the leg and damages joints and tendons that were not designed to take so much shock. "

But, to you guys saying that most professional horses (the ones that win anything) are shod. Also, that we that do barefoot don’t go anywhere with them or ride them at all. I know tons of professional ranches that are catching on to the barefoot.

One farm is http://www.sdpbuffaloranch.com/
(i interned here for a few summers and rode almost all of the horses)

almost 80% of there horses INCLUDING show horses and stallions are barefoot. All of the time! They have had spectacular winners like

TR DUAL REY,#3795517 has won $291,110.84 in NCHA dollars
of which $388.08 is used to determine eligibility for the 2008 point year
and has the following Awards: COA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZdGPpl5jZ4
(video of what he does)

HIGHLIGHTCAT,#4145539 has won $134,912.97 in NCHA dollars
of which $3,683.66 is used to determine eligibility for the 2008 point year
and has the following Awards: COA

here is a video of him preforming
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-J5L...eature=related

BOTH OF THESE STALLIONS ARE BAREFOOT


One more thing I would like to touch on is why is it that you guys have to continually improve upon the horse shoe system not getting it right the first time? When barefoot trimming still uses the model that mother nature invented when she invented the horse? A wild horse can cover 20-30 miles of terrain a day for there entire lifespan without ever seeing a horse shoe.

Don't get me wrong some horses that are kept in stalls almost all the time, and don't have room to run most of the day SHOULD NOT be barefoot because the horses feet wont develop like they would if they were on pasture for most of the day and running and playing. getting that shock absorption and circulation they need in the foot. I just see red when people discount barefoot saying it must not work because it goes against the norm. When there are examples like those I have already listed where it does work in the competition arena.

did my homework this time;)

[altjaeger]

I don't see how members pointing out design flaws in a study, flaws that can (and appear to) lead to serious questions about the validity of the findings, is "trash[ing the] study"...

I didn't mean anything by that. "Trashing", to me, = "pointing out design flaws that can lead to serious questions about the validity of the finding".

[JHUshoer20]

I agree with barefoot! I think it is the best thing that has happened to all of my, and my friends horses. I think she is right that the circulation of the hoof does suffer, and with that the shock absorption to the hoof also.
So you and tamara are still blaming shoes for your horse tying up?????:rolleyes:

"There are more than a dozen ways that shoes are known to damage the feet, legs, and circulatory system of the horse (see A Lifetime of Soundness by Dr. Hiltrud Strasser). The worst damage comes from loss of circulation in the hoof, and loss of shock absorption. More than a dozen? Name a few more. Your claims of loss of circulation and shock absorption are demonstrably incorrect.

Circulation: When the horse steps down on his foot, the cone-shaped hoof wall flexes wider at the bottom; when he lifts it off the ground, it returns to its narrower "closed" shape. This spread-and-squeeze acts like a pump, pulling blood into the foot with each step.
A proven falsehood.

Horsehoes are nailed onto the foot when it is in the closed, off-the-ground position. With a shoe on, the hoof can't flex, so the pump doesn't work; not enough blood and nutrients are pulled into the foot to build and maintain strong tissues. Therefore, the quality of sole, wall, and frog is poor; injuries are slow to heal; and the white line deteriorates over time and becomes stretchy.
Is this also coming from tamara?

A rough estimate is that a medium-sized, barefoot horse pumps a gallon (4 liters) through its four feet in about 20 strides.
By which research study? Cites?

Shock absorption: In the tough yet elastic barefoot hoof, the flexing of the weighted hoof can absorb as much as 2,000 lbs. of concussion. But the horseshoe holds the foot inflexible, canceling out 75% of its ability to absorb shock. Instead, the concussion goes on up the leg and damages joints and tendons that were not designed to take so much shock. "
Again demonstrably incorrect. Put down Strasser's manifesto and try reading some credible research.

But, to you guys saying that most professional horses (the ones that win anything) are shod. Also, that we that do barefoot don’t go anywhere with them or ride them at all. I know tons of professional ranches that are catching on to the barefoot.
True they are, what's a "professional ranch" by the way?

One farm is http://www.sdpbuffaloranch.com/
(i interned here for a few summers and rode almost all of the horses)

almost 80% of there horses INCLUDING show horses and stallions are barefoot. All of the time!

In most of our experience breeding stallions as well as broodmares and babies are barefoot about 100% of the time. Shoes are only needed for horses that work for the most part.

TR DUAL REY,#3795517 has won $291,110.84 in NCHA dollars
of which $388.08 is used to determine eligibility for the 2008 point year
and has the following Awards: COA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZdGPpl5jZ4
(video of what he does)

HIGHLIGHTCAT,#4145539 has won $134,912.97 in NCHA dollars
of which $3,683.66 is used to determine eligibility for the 2008 point year
and has the following Awards: COA

here is a video of him preforming
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-J5L...eature=related

BOTH OF THESE STALLIONS ARE BAREFOOT
As breeding stallions usually are. Were they shod when they competed? Bet they were.


One more thing I would like to touch on is why is it that you guys have to continually improve upon the horse shoe system not getting it right the first time? When barefoot trimming still uses the model that mother nature invented when she invented the horse? A wild horse can cover 20-30 miles of terrain a day for there entire lifespan without ever seeing a horse shoe.
Study some more. Horseshoes are one of the oldest tools known to man. They've changed very little in thousands of years. What changes are you talking about?

Wild horses never covered that much ground in their lives. Most of them stand around and eat grass all day. 20 to 30 miles is what an army marched when at full speed and don't look now but army horses were all shod.

Don't get me wrong some horses that are kept in stalls almost all the time, and don't have room to run most of the day SHOULD NOT be barefoot because the horses feet wont develop like they would if they were on pasture for most of the day and running and playing. getting that shock absorption and circulation they need in the foot. I just see red when people discount barefoot saying it must not work because it goes against the norm. When there are examples like those I have already listed where it does work in the competition arena.

did my homework this time;) Not quite. If you did your homework on this one I'll grade you an F. You really believe that one who stands in a stall and does nothing needs shoes but not one that works?:no:

By the way...... How come you deleted your other post?
George

[lstevenson]

The vet in the OP must have missed the Scientific Method lecture.... you'd think they'd give it more than once!



:lol: yeah, you would think.

[atr]

BTR, I have taken horses barefoot before who have felt fabulous as soon as the shoes came off, but were very footsore by the next day.

[gottalovethecowgirl]

OK here is my reply to that. I don't believe that my horses tying up was caused simply by being shod. We have found out since her episode that it wasn't the first time it had occurred. However, I do know that since we removed her shoes and have gone to Pete Ramey's Barefoot Trims on her there have been NO re-occurrences. And in the studying I have done I attribute that to increased circulation IN THE FOOT. It is a proven fact that problems such as Navicular disease and foundering is more common in shod horses then in barefoot. Read any barefoot article and it will probably touch on this somewhere.

As for Tamera, before becoming a barefoot trimmer, she was a licensed Farrier for over 15 years. She completed her apprenticeship under several vets and experienced farriers, and has studied extensively with the well known barefoot trimmer Pete Ramey. If you get Horse and Rider magazine, you will see he has been mentioned in there a few times. They have even done an article with him. So she is not just some one who woke up one day and said I want to try this she studied about it and questioned it for a while before she became a barefoot trimmer.

"Circulation: When the horse steps down on his foot, the cone-shaped hoof wall flexes wider at the bottom; when he lifts it off the ground, it returns to its narrower "closed" shape. This spread-and-squeeze acts like a pump, pulling blood into the foot with each step." you say this is a proven false hood. i would like to see the articles where it is proven wrong. i am not attacking you but i would just like to see it.

You want sites well I got this from Pete Rameys book. But I am sure if you put barefoot trimming on any search and look around there sites offered there you will find those facts.

Professional ranch in my definition is one that is known and has won earnings on more than a few horses.

These stallions were not shod on almost all of there shows. I know this to be the case because I was and am an exercise rider for most of them.

I agree that horse shoes have been around for centuries. But I believe unless you can find data that early horses were actually born with shoes on, barefoot wild horses have been around longer.;)

I realize that this has become a contemptuous subject, and so this will be my last post. I understand that there are two sides to every issue, and that any data or study can be manipulated to agree with either side. However, if I have been able to raise awareness for barefoot in any way to anyone, then my mission has been completed.

[J.D.]

gottalovethecowgirl-OK here is my reply to that. I don't believe that my horses tying up was caused simply by being shod. We have found out since her episode that it wasn't the first time it had occurred. However, I do know that since we removed her shoes and have gone to Pete Ramey's Barefoot Trims on her there have been NO re-occurrences. earnings on more than a few horses.

.......



WE, guess you and you team change her diet also? That usually takes care of the ty-up thing:rolleyes:

[Guilherme]

Now that you've successfully trashed this study, please tell this non-horseowner, are shoes even necessary if you never let the horse onto anything but grassy fields and dirt arenas? Along the Gulf Coast, rocks are pretty much non-existent.

The Golden Rule of Equine Husbandry is that you give the horse what it needs, when it needs it, and in appropriate quantity and quality.

As soon as you find somebody applying some absolute, beyond the above, to any question of husbandry, training, etc. then you can pretty well bet your last nickle that you're dealing with a zealot.

Any "study" that as it is based upon anacdote and assumption deserves to be "trashed."

While it's absolutely true that the "default state" of the horse should be barefoot it's equally true that some horses need shoes.

To answer your specific question I'd say, "maybe so and maybe not." If you're talking about a "pasture ornament" who does no work then it's likely that the answer will be "no." If you're talking about a horse in work, particularly serious work where you will have significant foot abrasion, then the answer is likely "yes."

The horse in front of you will always give you a true answer. :)

G.

[Ambrey]

Number one rule of research and statistics.

"Correlation does not equal causation."

Before any more of you come up with your "We brought the lame horse in and after taking her shoes off (changing her diet, taking better care of her, getting her away from the horse that was kicking her, or in some other way changing her environment" she was fine!

I had a lame horse and put shoes on him, and now he's fine. So, shoes cure lameness. I just proved it!

[altjaeger]

I keep reading the expression "work", but how much work does a lesson horse, do, for example? I asked that question at my RS and the answer was 2, sometimes 3, group lessons per day, 6 days per week. Much of the time in a group lesson is spent just standing around. Is that really that hard on a horse's feet?

The above is not meant to be questioning of the need for shoes. I don't even have an opinion on that.

[JHUshoer20]

OK here is my reply to that. I don't believe that my horses tying up was caused simply by being shod. We have found out since her episode that it wasn't the first time it had occurred. However, I do know that since we removed her shoes and have gone to Pete Ramey's Barefoot Trims on her there have been NO re-occurrences. And in the studying I have done I attribute that to increased circulation IN THE FOOT. It is a proven fact that problems such as Navicular disease and foundering is more common in shod horses then in barefoot. Again false. Read the links Rick posted concerning azoturia and become enlightened. Read any barefoot article and it will probably touch on this somewhere. No doubt. Barefoot articles say many outlandish things. I'd bet somewhere they blame horseshoeing for the Lindbergh kidnapping as well.:eek:

As for Tamera, before becoming a barefoot trimmer, she was a licensed Farrier for over 15 years. Stop right there! Licensed by who? What state, country, or pari-mutual jurisdiction? She completed her apprenticeship under several vets and experienced farriers, Since when do vets offer horseshoeing apprenticeships? How long was the duration of this training? What specialties did she learn? Did she ever become certified by any organization? Gain entrance into the union? Perhaps most importantly how much money was earned by her clientele off of the work she performed in her storied career? and has studied extensively with the well known barefoot trimmer Pete Ramey. This one I do believe. Sorry, still not impressed. If you get Horse and Rider magazine, you will see he has been mentioned in there a few times. They have even done an article with him. Uh no, must have missed it. Wonder how I got this far down the road without a subscription to such a helpful publication So she is not just some one who woke up one day and said I want to try this she studied about it and questioned it for a while before she became a barefoot trimmer. Sounds more like she couldn't make it as a horseshoer so went with something easier if in fact there is any truth to her having ever tried the trade:yes:


I agree that horse shoes have been around for centuries. But I believe unless you can find data that early horses were actually born with shoes on, barefoot wild horses have been around longer.;)
We all know none are born with shoes on but neither are they born wearing saddles and bridles either. Matter of fact I highly doubt that you or any other human goes barefoot all day every day either. Why don't you ask Mr Ramey how many feral horses live past age 10? Being as they don't carry riders, pull wagons, or work in any way shouldn't they have great longevity in their all-natural lifestyle?

I realize that this has become a contemptuous subject, and so this will be my last post. I understand that there are two sides to every issue, and that any data or study can be manipulated to agree with either side. However, if I have been able to raise awareness for barefoot in any way to anyone, then my mission has been completed.
Ah, so a woman on a mission. To rid the world of evil shoes, or as Dr "Sole Callous" Bowker calls them "Perimiter Loading Devices". Is nothing that hasn't been tried. Especially on this website. Perhaps maybe I can interest you in signing my petition for an immediate and total ban on dihydrogen monoxide. Is a much more worthy cause.
George

[PiaffeDreams]

Perhaps maybe I can interest you in signing my petition for an immediate and total ban on dihydrogen monoxide. Is a much more worthy cause.
George

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

I'll have to remember that one.

[LMH]

gottalovethecowgirl, you are killing me. Really you are.:eek:

IF you are going to jump on a forum like this and sing the saving graces of barefoot (something I really don't recommend unless you are bored and have a thick skin)...PLEASE at LEAST spout of facts that are correct and can't be disputed.

If you are in the US, there IS no farrier 'licensing'-lack of information in one topic is grounds to discredit you on any topic.

Please explain to me how LACK of circulation in the hoof can cause tying up.

Are you sure shoes cause LACK of circulation? If so, why doesn't the foot die and fall off?

As far as navicular-actually more information (that I have seen) focuses on the cause being from improper hoof form (very high heels or long forward heels) as opposed to simply the application of the shoe....could you please provide information to correct this if I am wrong.

Honestly I have bare horses...but these types of round and rounds just make it more difficult for those that actually HAVE good information on barefoot to make any impact.

There are enough fruitloop barefoot freaks out there-we really don't need anymore.:no:

[J.D.]

LMH;-gottalovethecowgirl, you are killing me. Really you are.:eek:

......There are enough fruitloop barefoot freaks out there-we really don't need anymore.:no:



Eassssyyyyy Counselor, Easssyyyy!!!:winkgrin:

[LMH]

Me???? Geez I am on the same team and this stuff is over the top for me!:lol:

Heck if *I* am offending a fellow member of the fringe imagine what happens when Sir Stovall arrives on the scene! :eek:

[Buffyblue]

Barefoot articles say many outlandish things. I'd bet somewhere they blame horseshoeing for the Lindbergh kidnapping as well.:eek:
George


:lol:Iced coffee just hit the computer screen on that one!!:lol:

[J.D.]

LMH-Me???? Geez I am on the same team and this stuff is over the top for me!:lol:

Yep, You. When the fringe gets to be the "Lunatic Fringe", it becomes unbearable even for the faithful:eek::D





Heck if *I* am offending a fellow member of the fringe imagine what happens when Sir Stovall arrives on the scene! :eek:


No your not, the 'Lunatic Fringe" or Zealot cannot be offended; they come in spout like a whale and swim off. "The Fringe" use, IMO, a logical approach in some manners to their approaches. They can go out into left field but know their way back to home base in a lot of cases.:yes::cool:

Mr. Tom will be Mr. Tom; succinct and to the point as always:uhoh:

[flshgordon]

Took a 20 + year old QH mare out of shoes yesterday. Nothing majorly wrong with the hooves and the trim per se, but the horse was short stepping and did not look comfortable. Has done this for quite some time. The non-dominant left front was more contracted , as it often happens in smaller footed , halter horse type QH which are then labeled as being "clubby". Owner told me though that she works out of it when ridden which at first made me think it might be more muscle related.

I checked her muscles in the shoulders and could not really find anything wrong there that may have accounted for the short stepping. I told the owner that I suspected the shoes more than anything.

The mare immediately improved after the removal of the shoes - much better movement. I checked on her again to make sure I wasn't just imagining things and wanted the owner to watch her too and sure enough - the mare now has a much longer stride and is nicely heel loading as she should. Still not 100%, but at least 80% improved.

Now I am hoping to convince to keep shoes off this mare for the rest of her life. I think she will be much better without any. :yes:

This sure made my day today :)

You do realize that it is ENTIRELY possible and I would say very likely that the mare had a CRAPPY farrier (yes there are a few out there) and that just removing the shoes didn't necessarily fix the problem. I would assume you gave the horse a trim (unless you are an idiot and just pulled off the shoes and did nothing) so it's actually way more possible that someone had just poorly balanced the feet before and you fixed it.

I won't even comment on the OP other than what an assinine "research study". Barefoot nazis should just take one look at that and realize why most people have little tolerance for their preaching. When one of their own prophets spouts such obviously unfounded BS, it makes the whole lot look bad.

And yes....I have 2 non-shod horses.

[flyingchange]

I have stayed away from these barefoot vs. shoes debates on this forum, and therefore I have, until recently, not been exposed to the obnoxious and annoying barefoot zealots. It was nice being insulated from these people. However, now I have a horse for sale on equine.com, and so I get calls every now and then about him. So the first thing one of my prospective buyers asked in a recent call was "is he shod or barefoot?" to which I responded that he is shod. Well, she had "real reservations" about buying a shod horse because:

- shoes cause navicular :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
- horses wearing shoes can't feel their feet - their feet are numb ... :lol::lol::lol:
- and my favorite: "horses aren't born with shoes!!!"

Well, I didn't say it but I was thinking "and neither are humans!!!

Have no probs with barefoot - I have had horses barefoot and have one )(who is retired) who is bf. Most of us, as another poster put it so well, let our horses tell us if they need shoes or not.

[J.D.]

flshgordon..... Barefoot nazis should just take one look at that and realize why most people have little tolerance for their preaching. When one of their own prophets spouts such obviously unfounded BS, it makes the whole lot look bad.

And yes....I have 2 non-shod horses.


I used to have 3/4 barefoot until I gave one away. So, as a farrier I "know" what barefoot does to certain horses and what shoes do to certain horses. The benefits/detriments of both protocols to each individual horse can be productive and destructive. And there you have it, the conundrum of the individual horse:cool:

[Tom Bloomer]

Are you sure shoes cause LACK of circulation? If so, why doesn't the foot die and fall off?

The chondrocoronal ligaments keep the foot from falling off. :lol:

[LMH]

oh.

[JHUshoer20]

I have stayed away from these barefoot vs. shoes debates on this forum, and therefore I have, until recently, not been exposed to the obnoxious and annoying barefoot zealots. It was nice being insulated from these people. However, now I have a horse for sale on equine.com, and so I get calls every now and then about him. So the first thing one of my prospective buyers asked in a recent call was "is he shod or barefoot?" to which I responded that he is shod. Well, she had "real reservations" about buying a shod horse because:

- shoes cause navicular :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
- horses wearing shoes can't feel their feet - their feet are numb ... :lol::lol::lol:
- and my favorite: "horses aren't born with shoes!!!"

Well, I didn't say it but I was thinking "and neither are humans!!!

Have no probs with barefoot - I have had horses barefoot and have one )(who is retired) who is bf. Most of us, as another poster put it so well, let our horses tell us if they need shoes or not.
If it's an animal you care much about they did you a favor. Not sure if you'd really want to sell a decent horse to a whacko like that anyway:no:
George

[Rick Burten]

I'd bet somewhere they blame horseshoeing for the Lindbergh kidnapping as well.:eek:

Nope, that allegation does not exist because it has been proven beyond an unreasonable(sic) doubt, that the kidnapping was a conspiracy of members of the extreme left of the BUA. Bruno was their unwitting dupe.

Ah, so a woman on a mission. To rid the world of evil shoes, or as Dr "Sole Callous" Bowker calls them "Perimiter Loading Devices".

F. Strasser has managed to become alienated from even those who are somewhat like minded, but follow the utterances of a different barefoot guru. The esteemed Dr. Bowker has a pretty good press agent and a convincing line of mushroom fertilizer.

Perhaps maybe I can interest you in signing my petition for an immediate and total ban on dihydrogen monoxide. Is a much more worthy cause.
George

ROTFLMFAO!!! It might just solve most, if not all, of the world's problems. Would it be possible to just ban it in select places? I can think of several dozen right off the bat.....

[Rick Burten]

There are enough fruitloop barefoot freaks out there-we really don't need anymore.:no:
I luv it!!!!!!

In addition to being spot on, this is also a concise and fully accurate description of one Terrible Tommy Tesky who, among other misstatements and hyperbole, has compared the ancient Chinese practice of foot binding to the art and science of horseshoeing. And there have, it seems, been enough pilgrims out there who have bought into his mushroom fertilizer.

[Cielo Azure]

Findings for every horse owner and professional to ponder....I bet if all equine vets would do this (of course while also taking the horses activity levels into account) they would find very similar trends:A review of my clinical re-cords in equine veterinary practice over the past ten years has revealed that 85% of hoof and leg ailments of all kinds have occurred in shod horses, including catastrophic limb fractures. Yet the prevalence of shod horses amongst my clientele during that time was only 48%.The Unfettered Foot (http://www.easycareinc.com/Education/articles/unfettered.aspx)- Dr. Teskey


Snort!!! Most athletes wear expensive track shoes. As athletes age, they have higher rates of arthritis than the average population. IT MUST BE THE EXPENSIVE TRACK SHOES!!!

Duh. We can solve this issue of higher rates of arthritis in the older athlete by recommending that they go bare foot! It makes perfect sense to me:winkgrin:

[Rick Burten]

Barefoot didn't help Zola Budd.........

[Jumphigh83]

Before I read ANY of the posts I thought..."yeah because performance horses who do the most work are mostly SHOD...so any horse not doing too much would be unshod and less likely to get hurt..." reading through I guess you guys have it under control. That was really a kind of stupid conclusion based on that premise. I really liked the three lies...what lies, bigger lies and statistics??!! That's all!

[Guilherme]

I keep reading the expression "work", but how much work does a lesson horse, do, for example? I asked that question at my RS and the answer was 2, sometimes 3, group lessons per day, 6 days per week. Much of the time in a group lesson is spent just standing around. Is that really that hard on a horse's feet?

The above is not meant to be questioning of the need for shoes. I don't even have an opinion on that.

Consider that an owner is going to use their personal horse for a lesson. The lesson is 50 min. (40 min. in motion and 10 min. static) and the horse will be warmed up for 30 min. and cooled out for 10. The total distance traveled will be approximately 9.6 miles calculated as follows:

Time Speed Distance
Gait (Min) (Ft/Sec. (Feet)
Walk, Warmup 15 6 5400
Walk, Lesson 15 6 5400
Gait, Warmup 10 12 7200
Gait, Lesson 15 12 10800
Canter, Warmup 4 22 5280
Canter. Lesson 10 22 13200
Cooldown 10 6 3600

Speed assumptions and distance calculations are:

Gait Time (Min) Speed (MPH) Distance (MI)
Walk 40 4 2.7
Gait 25 8 3.4
Canter 14 15 3.5
Total: 9.6

I don't claim perfection in these numbers; I do think that they are "ball park accurate" and give a reasonable approximation of distances covered.

Now consider that the rider takes two lessons per week (as they are serious) and will work the horse at least twice more using the same basic program (and probably adding some "hacking out" at the end of non-lesson work periods). You've now got a horse traveling a minimum of almost 40 miles per week, and likely closer to 50. Depending on the quality of the hoof tissue and the terrain upon which the work is performed wear may exceed growth. If this is true then shoes will be required. If wear does not exceed growth then shoes will not be required.

Lessen the distance (one lesson, fewer work sessions, no hacking out, etc.) and you'll get one answer to the "shoe question." Increase the work (more hacking out, more lessons, long trail rides, etc.) and answer may well change.

Change the scenario a bit (make the horse a "schoolie" doing multiple lessons per day with shorter warmup and cooling out periods) and the miles can really add up without the horse ever leaves the school.

This is only one definition of work, but it is one. :)

G.

P.S. Sorry I could not make the columns format; I couldn't figure that one out. Hope it still makes basic sense.

[goeslikestink]

I agree with barefoot! I think it is the best thing that has happened to all of my, and my friends horses. I think she is right that the circulation of the hoof does suffer, and with that the shock absorption to the hoof also.

"There are more than a dozen ways that shoes are known to damage the feet, legs, and circulatory system of the horse (see A Lifetime of Soundness by Dr. Hiltrud Strasser). The worst damage comes from loss of circulation in the hoof, and loss of shock absorption.

Circulation: When the horse steps down on his foot, the cone-shaped hoof wall flexes wider at the bottom; when he lifts it off the ground, it returns to its narrower "closed" shape. This spread-and-squeeze acts like a pump, pulling blood into the foot with each step.

Horsehoes are nailed onto the foot when it is in the closed, off-the-ground position. With a shoe on, the hoof can't flex, so the pump doesn't work; not enough blood and nutrients are pulled into the foot to build and maintain strong tissues. Therefore, the quality of sole, wall, and frog is poor; injuries are slow to heal; and the white line deteriorates over time and becomes stretchy.

A rough estimate is that a medium-sized, barefoot horse pumps a gallon (4 liters) through its four feet in about 20 strides.

Shock absorption: In the tough yet elastic barefoot hoof, the flexing of the weighted hoof can absorb as much as 2,000 lbs. of concussion. But the horseshoe holds the foot inflexible, canceling out 75% of its ability to absorb shock. Instead, the concussion goes on up the leg and damages joints and tendons that were not designed to take so much shock. "

But, to you guys saying that most professional horses (the ones that win anything) are shod. Also, that we that do barefoot don’t go anywhere with them or ride them at all. I know tons of professional ranches that are catching on to the barefoot.

One farm is http://www.sdpbuffaloranch.com/
(i interned here for a few summers and rode almost all of the horses)

almost 80% of there horses INCLUDING show horses and stallions are barefoot. All of the time! They have had spectacular winners like

TR DUAL REY,#3795517 has won $291,110.84 in NCHA dollars
of which $388.08 is used to determine eligibility for the 2008 point year
and has the following Awards: COA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZdGPpl5jZ4
(video of what he does)

HIGHLIGHTCAT,#4145539 has won $134,912.97 in NCHA dollars
of which $3,683.66 is used to determine eligibility for the 2008 point year
and has the following Awards: COA

here is a video of him preforming
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-J5L...eature=related

BOTH OF THESE STALLIONS ARE BAREFOOT


One more thing I would like to touch on is why is it that you guys have to continually improve upon the horse shoe system not getting it right the first time? When barefoot trimming still uses the model that mother nature invented when she invented the horse? A wild horse can cover 20-30 miles of terrain a day for there entire lifespan without ever seeing a horse shoe.

Don't get me wrong some horses that are kept in stalls almost all the time, and don't have room to run most of the day SHOULD NOT be barefoot because the horses feet wont develop like they would if they were on pasture for most of the day and running and playing. getting that shock absorption and circulation they need in the foot. I just see red when people discount barefoot saying it must not work because it goes against the norm. When there are examples like those I have already listed where it does work in the competition arena.

did my homework this time;)


stallions are often barefoot so ot to hurt the female during whatevers if breeding and they are some times kept just for that requirement and sometimes due that fact dont actually do any work others might compete during the un breeding season ie show jumping or dresage and more than likely be shod in order to protect the horses feet

after all when one has a stallion of breeding quality then they want to show it of at its best
and one wouldnt put a mare to a lame stallion--

and by the by theres been many a topic on strassers triming protocol of which hers is the abusive triming and not one that one should base trimers on,

[Thomas_1]

What a load of *****

Do people actually give any credence to such rubbish!?

Oh and another piece of statistical fact of huge interest...........

You'll be amazed to know that according to statistical average everyone has one testicle :winkgrin:

[Kementari]

You'll be amazed to know that according to statistical average everyone has one testicle :winkgrin:

*snort* :lol:

You know, every horse I've ever owned who went lame has been chestnut. Chestnut colouring causes lameness! :eek:

[findeight]

...has compared the ancient Chinese practice of foot binding to the art and science of horseshoeing. And there have, it seems, been enough pilgrims out there who have bought into his mushroom fertilizer.

Well, I can certainly agree with the similarity in the 2 practices. After all, the species are almost identical in foot structure.

Wrapping with linen strips and nailing a steel shoe directly to the foot are too similar to be a coincidence. Obviously, protection/support and growth restriction are one and the same.

Brilliant.

May I have a mushroom please.

[Ambrey]

And we all put shoes on our yearlings and refuse to change the size to keep their hooves small (since that's so desirable).

[Rick Burten]

Well, I can certainly agree with the similarity in the 2 practices. After all, the species are almost identical in foot structure.

Really? Then you need to go and take Comparative Anatomy 101. And before you go and put your ignorance on further display, you might want to first engage in some basic critical thinking.

Wrapping with linen strips and nailing a steel shoe directly to the foot are too similar to be a coincidence.

Are you that stupid or just obtuse?

Obviously, protection/support and growth restriction are one and the same.

Obvious only to the SII(severely intellectually impaired). Do you perchance have lemmings in your lineage?

May I have a mushroom please.

You've been eating the fertilizer for too long and so, you are no longer eligible to partake of the mushrooms, magic or otherwise. Stick to what you eat and digest best.

[J Swan]

Wrapping with linen strips and nailing a steel shoe directly to the foot are too similar to be a coincidence. Obviously, protection/support and growth restriction are one and the same.



In that case, maybe I should be wrapping my hips and thighs with linen bandages and nailing the strips together with a horseshoe.

:winkgrin::cool:

[findeight]

Really? Then you need to go and take Comparative Anatomy 101. And before you go and put your ignorance on further display, you might want to first engage in some basic critical thinking.



Are you that stupid or just obtuse?



Obvious only to the SII(severely intellectually impaired). Do you perchance have lemmings in your lineage?



You've been eating the fertilizer for too long and so, you are no longer eligible to partake of the mushrooms, magic or otherwise. Stick to what you eat and digest best.


Ummmm...OK.

Sometimes some of us like a little humor. Guess not this one.

[J Swan]

Ummmm...OK.

Sometimes some of us like a little humor. Guess not this one.

I got it - and it was funny!:)

[creseida]

sarchasm - the gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn't get it.

[wateryglen]

2 words.....DUCT TAPE!

Think of it! Better than shoes; better than barefoot!!! Duct tape will git R done!!!

Wrap you feet in it or your thighs or your hips or you head......:p

Pass the mojitos...I'm getting empty here!! :D

[J Swan]

No mojitos for me - those suckers knock me on my big butt!

I bought a bottle of "Chocolate Temptation" at the ABC store. Goes well with Cheese Nips. :D

[findeight]

sarchasm - the gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn't get it.


I like that one:lol:.

Getting way too serious around here lately.

Do mushrooms go with margaritas?

[LarkspurCO]

Do mushrooms go with margaritas?

Yes, but you may wake up with your car wrapped around a tree.

[ExJumper]

Wow. As a scientist, that conclusion brings tears to my eyes.

And for anyone who is interested, a little light reading on the subject of people drawing ridiculous conclusions from general information:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cum_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc

[oldenmare]

double oops - and this is WITHOUT the tequila.... need some popcorn, too..... must make grocery list NOW

[oldenmare]

Bloody hell!!! How did I miss that the train wreck was acoming!!! And I haven't restocked the tequila from the last train wreck on this board.....

There ought to be an alert system..... little PM notifications going off to all emails or whatever - beeper alerts, sirens, etc....

Whoa (pun intended for the reading dense) is me - unstocked liquor cabinet and its only Monday....

oldenmare (the owner of many many shod horses with no lameness issues over the past 20 some years.... guess that makes me a scientific oddity instead of just an oddity)...

[tkhawk]

I did read the report and was surprised at his conclusion

"The shod and deformed foot is a sad and sorry sight, harmful to the horse. The bare and healthy foot is a joy to behold, and does no harm, of course"

I am surprised a vet would be that far out of the mainstream.. I am sure everybody has their reasons-myself I have one horse shod and one barefoot-whatever works. But was surprised by a vet being this adamant about something..

[Kyzteke]

Shoes reduce circulation to the foot?

THAT is an easy one to prove or disprove.

1. Take x number of horses -- barefoot.

2. TAKE PULSES...that is the barometer of blood going into the foot. Get a solid base line for each horse, so would need to take place over the course of time...a month maybe.

3. Apply shoes to said horses.

4. Re-do #2

BINGO -- pretty darn definitive data. If the pulse is reduced or bounding or even consistantly elevated and thready after shoes, that would indicate that *at least* shoes change the quality of the blood flow to a horse's feet.

Is there some hungry grad student out there who would like to do such a study?

[goeslikestink]

there are 2 people on this bb that i have read in last 10mins or so that dont recognise a lameness issue or can determine what leg

there are lots of posts that have hock injections - as in when do i start to have hock injections or simular

so-- my side of debate is
call a farrier your horse feet might need addressing properly


like i said many people dont recognise the source of the problem so they tend to go for the cheaper option as quick fix

[wateryglen]

Cheese nips dipped in Chocolate Temptations?!!! :eek: Whoa!! I see a new tailgate food a comin'!!
I'm coming over for breakfast! :yes:
No margaritas go best with carrot sticks not mushrooms you silly!! That's a well founded scientific conclusion. Mushrooms will decrease your leg pulses way too low and that could be harmful!
And was I mistaken or wasn't mojitos the official train wreck drinK!!! ??
slurp! :D

[Auventera Two]

There are enough fruitloop barefoot freaks out there-we really don't need anymore.:no:

Wait. What?

I just sent in my application to the FBF Governing Society of America, Inc. I was expecting a return reply in 7-10 business days! :eek: :cry: Awww man this just sucks.

[findeight]

I was the original one that suggested we switch to mojitos a few months ago....my bad. Mojitos and Mushrooms...and a Kolarabi stick.

[Auventera Two]

Shoes reduce circulation to the foot?

THAT is an easy one to prove or disprove.

1. Take x number of horses -- barefoot.

2. TAKE PULSES...that is the barometer of blood going into the foot. Get a solid base line for each horse, so would need to take place over the course of time...a month maybe.

3. Apply shoes to said horses.

4. Re-do #2

BINGO -- pretty darn definitive data. If the pulse is reduced or bounding or even consistantly elevated and thready after shoes, that would indicate that *at least* shoes change the quality of the blood flow to a horse's feet.

Is there some hungry grad student out there who would like to do such a study?


While I don't agree that shoes decrease circulation in the feet, your proposed "study" is faulty. :cool: :lol: First - a detectable digital pulse at the digital artery or vein is not necessary a desirable thing to start with. Some horses do always have a faint digital pulse, but a lot of them do not, or not at least that I've ever been able to find.

Second, the pulse felt above the hoof capsule doesn't tell you the quantity or quality of blood flow moving through each venous plexus inside the capsule, and the subsequent nourishment of all structures. It IS possible for circulation to be reduced or eliminated alltogether in one plexus but not in others.

For example, a foundered horse may have a bounding pulse, or even only a slight detectable digital pulse, but still have loss of circulation at the dorsal aspect of the pedal bone.

Only veinograms and arteriograms can adequately and accurately depict the details of blood flow, or lackthereof, in the hoof capsule. Of course there are always outward clues in the structures themselves, but for the level of study you're talking about, I'd say veinograms and arteriograms would be mandatory.

[Rick Burten]

Something to ponder from the late Dr. James Rooney, DVM on the subject of blood flow within the hoof capsule.

"Measuring such flow accurately and over a period of time and interpreting the results properly is a difficult task and not for casual diddling around. I am not an expert in peripheral vascular physiology and neither are any of those who are making claims about the foot and hoof vascular flow. Just shooting in a dye and taking pictures or slapping on a Doppler ultrasound does not mean the results are being correctly interpreted.
There is so much myth and nonsense spouted to support crackpot theorizing about the foot of the horse, it is only a miracle that man has not succeeded in destroying the animal utterly."

[J Swan]

I am surprised a vet would be that far out of the mainstream.. I am sure everybody has their reasons-myself I have one horse shod and one barefoot-whatever works. But was surprised by a vet being this adamant about something..


Well, the way I figure it, someone has to graduate at the bottom of the class.

[Jumphigh83]

I pulled the shoes from my show mare and she GOT IN FOAL! So unshod horses are more likely to get in foal....Oh yeah there was that breeding thing too...probably no correlation!:lol::lol: