Stallion as competitive endurance horse

[Ozalynda]

I am looking for a new endurance horse and am considering a full brother to a CEI*** mare. He is a 5 year old stallion. I would like to hear opinions about the potential difficulties of using a stallion in competition, preferably from people who have also, for better or worse, "been there, done that" . ;)

Gelding is not an option, at least not as a first resort.

Thanks!!!

[Shadow14]

I bought a stallion 2 weeks ago and he was a real jerk. A stallion doesn't relax. At the watering troughs he acts up when any other horse comes near. At the vet checks if a mare is in heat you have a problem. Screaming at everything in sight.
A gelding just doesn't care, he is more relaxed around other horses.
I have been around endurance for 20 years, one of my partners rode a stallion and one day at a ride the stallion turned on him at a vet check and hurt him badly. I know several stallions, one 22 year old morgan and you can not trust them riding along with them. All the stallions I know have a one time or another turned on someone and attacked.
I handled a stallion every day for a few years and I always had to be on my guard in case of a sudden lung with his teeth and he was/is a great gentle boy most of the time.
Other then dedicated for breeding a stallion has no place in a public place and again I have been around stallions all my life, that's 50 years of riding and all all have at one time or another attacked without warning.
If I was/am a competitor I don't want to be anywhere around a stallion and at close quarters like at the lineup for a vet check there is just no place for a stallion.
Again just my 2 cents but alot of experience backing it up.
I cut my boy

[Bank of Dad]

I know lots of folks will come up and say that their stallion was great, calm, etc. However, the woman I bought my current horse from has Arabs off the track. Several years ago she was riding a stallion in a 50 miler, and he was angry and pulling, had an anurysm dissect, and died, falling on her, and ending her riding career.

[BarbeyGirl]

There are some fantastic endurance stallions out there, but not every stallion is (mentally/emotionally) a candidate, and few handlers are up to the task.

There was a stallion at a ride in which I participated recently. He didn't scream all day and night, but the rider's crew did have to bring "his" mare over before he would pulse down at each vet check.

[2Horse]

Shadow, I am sorry you have been around so many not well trained stallions.:(
Not all stallions are like that.;)

[Shadow14]

Shadow, I am sorry you have been around so many not well trained stallions.:(
Not all stallions are like that.;)

I have been around some fantastic stallions, gentlemen in all sense of the word. I brought one in every night for years and real gentlemen but that same gentleman attacked a guy called Andrew who passed him in the woods riding a big quarterhorse. The stallion reared up and if it wasn't for him wearing a heavy winter vest serious damage would have been done. As it was the stallion dragged him off his horse with his teeth.
Another case I saw a friend picked up by the groin on his older stallion at a endurance ride at cross hill, right near the washrooms. The stallion/his stallion picked him up and shook him like a dog shakes a ground hog to kill it.
Yes I have been around some really nice well mannered stallions but something triggers them and they will lash out.
A girl called Sue was riding with her husband who owned this stallion for a very long time and while Sue was passing the stallion lashed out and dragged her clean off her horse by her calf muscle.
No I have been around nice stallions and still feel they have no place at a public ride where for one reason or another an unknowing riding happens to crowd said stallion and a accident happens.
I know about the red ribbon tied in the tail but what if you don't notice it. What if you are passing and the stallion take a dislike.
I can go on and on about accidents seen first hand or told by the hurt party and still feel stallions have no place at a ride, in a crowd, at a common water trough, in a lineup for a vet check or around young people or old people like me.
I have lots of experience breaking and handling horse and you couldn't give me a stallion if I couldn't cut him.

[Dressage_Diva333]

It's sad that some people have such bad opinions on stallions.

I knew a champion endurance stallion, came 2nd in Tevis. Won many BCs, and Top Tenned many times. Very sweet stallion, and very well mannered.

I think that a very, very large part of it depends on how the animal has been handled.


You see stallions all the time at shows. If their handled correctly, their good. Saying that stallions have no place in public is harsh in my opinion. So what are we supposed to do, lock them up and never show them to the public? Thats not practical. Yes, they do require some additional attention, but it's well worth it in my opinion. Whenever I take my mature stallion out people are always coming up to him (many of them are children). I say "go ahead and pet him, just don't touch his head". And I never leave him unattended. I'm a little more hesitant about people touching my 2 1/2 year old colt, just because he's young. He's an exceptionally good boy though, he just hasn't earned my complete trust because of his age. I've heard the bad stories, seen the bad handling, etc... and yes, their more dangerous than geldings, and mares, but it's worth it in my opinion.

[Shadow14]

Where does a stallion spend his life??? Locked away, never a companion horse, in a pasture alone. I have seen the constant pacing of the fence lines, the grooves worn in the ground along the fence, the weight loss in the spring at breeding time. It is a terrible life just so someone can say I ride a stallion. What is the big appeal of a stallion. I rode one in a number of endurance rides in the 90's. I have owned 2 that mounted a mare in front of them while under saddle. I was on one about a week ago that suddenly lunged forward and tried mounting the gelding right in front of him .
Cut him and free him from his solitary restless life. My guy will join others in about another 8-10 days. He is 3 1/2 and has never had a friend. His stall is boarded up to protect him from getting at the mares. He is cut and comming down but it takes time.
It is cruel to condemn a stallion to that lonely restless life. Give me a good gelding any old day. And again I have been around stallions all my life and don't envy them and their life style

[NoDQhere]

I've never posted on this forum before but this just jumped out at me because we have a couple of mares in our breeding program who's sire was a sucessful Endurance horse. His name is Bezalla and he was a purebred arabian. His sire was Bezatal who, if I remember correctly won the Tevis Cup twice. Those two stallions must not have been too bad :).

When I see a post like Shadow's, I wonder where all those rank stallions are. And what breed they were? We Dressage/Hunter/Jumper folk RIDE our stallions. We show them. They are good in company, trustworthy and dependable. We even haul our boys in a trailer with (gasp) mares and sometimes other stallions. The horror;)

[Shadow14]

Mostly Arab, a quarter horse, a saddlebred, a morgan, another morgan, percheron, saddlebred/arab cross, those are the ones I knew quit well and ever one except the percheron at one time or other turned visous sometime.
The quarter horse was a very close pet and the day he grabbed Pete by the stomach and lifted him off the ground was the day he was cut, well the next day.
Think about what part of the stallion does his thinking??? That certainly doesn't have a brain. I remember my friend with the arab stud at the rides always yelling out Station comming through and expecting everyone to give him a wide birth. At the water troughs no one could approach until he was finished. They are just a pain. For every stallion you see at the ride there are hundreds of geldings. That should tell you something. A good gelding is far nicer to be around then a stud.
Like I said I was around the morgan stallion 10 years and a few times in 10 years he lashed out unexpectedly. 10 years but it only takes once to get someone hurt badly.
Sure they show stallions but in a crowded endurance ride where heart rate and relaxing is everything why bother???
Yes we certainly need stallions, I bought one 2 weeks ago but I preformed Brain surgury and now his mind is on grass.

[ThoroughbredFancy]

I gelding could have just as well lashed out aggressively or even a mare could have done such a thing. We cannot predict an animal regardless. They have their own brain and motives. We can try our best to "train" them and get them to preform the tasks that we require and preform well.

I've met some great stallions who I wouldn't have even guessed they were still intact until I looked. I've also heard of some that were just over the top. It's 50/50. I think a lot of it is their upbringing, training, how they are handled and what kind of people they're around.

I wouldn't completely rule out a stallion. Of course I would try him out first and be expected that he may take a little extra care at a young age.

I've known some very dominant mares and geldings so I can't just generalize that trait to stallions.

[Guilherme]

There's no reason why a stallion cannot be a successful endurance horse. Col. Frank Thompkins (who wrote Chasing Villa, the story of the 1916 Punative Expedition into Mexico) rode a 14.2 Arabian stallion through the entire campaign. He put something better than 3000 miles on the horse in less than 90 days with full field equipment under some very hostile conditions. The horse did quite well.

The questions, to me, would be is the horse well trained enough to handle the standard mileu of a ride and are you a sufficiently skilled rider to handle any deviations from training? If somebody walks by with a mare in estrous what's going to happen? If you can honestly say, "Nothing; or if it does I can handle it" then I say "go for it."

If you can't make that statement then you're likely better off to stay with a mare or gelding.

G.

[BarbeyGirl]

Where does a stallion spend his life??? Locked away, never a companion horse, in a pasture alone. I have seen the constant pacing of the fence lines, the grooves worn in the ground along the fence, the weight loss in the spring at breeding time. It is a terrible life just so someone can say I ride a stallion.

It is cruel to condemn a stallion to that lonely restless life. Give me a good gelding any old day. And again I have been around stallions all my life and don't envy them and their life style

Stallions don't need to live in solitary confinement. One of mine shares a paddock with a bred mare; the other with a 2 year old gelding. All four horses are happy and healthy. :yes:

[Dressage_Diva333]

Where does a stallion spend his life??? Locked away, never a companion horse, in a pasture alone. I have seen the constant pacing of the fence lines, the grooves worn in the ground along the fence, the weight loss in the spring at breeding time. It is a terrible life just so someone can say I ride a stallion. What is the big appeal of a stallion. I rode one in a number of endurance rides in the 90's. I have owned 2 that mounted a mare in front of them while under saddle. I was on one about a week ago that suddenly lunged forward and tried mounting the gelding right in front of him .
Cut him and free him from his solitary restless life. My guy will join others in about another 8-10 days. He is 3 1/2 and has never had a friend. His stall is boarded up to protect him from getting at the mares. He is cut and comming down but it takes time.
It is cruel to condemn a stallion to that lonely restless life. Give me a good gelding any old day. And again I have been around stallions all my life and don't envy them and their life style



My two and a half year old lives with two mules, and a gelding. He is totally happy :)

My mature stallion lives with two donkeys. He is also totally happy.

I don't put my guys in with bred mares, just because I don't trust the mares not to hurt them.

And like mentioned above, I trailer my guys together, and with mares (yes, mares in heat as well). No problems.

Somebody also mentioned that relaxation is key in endurance, well, do you think a stallion can go into a Dressage test, or hunter round, screaming and distracted, and do well? No. You just don't see Dressage and H/J stallions acting like that, due to training. Theres no reason endurance horses can't be trained to be like that as well.

[pj]

Shadow, I am sorry you have been around so many not well trained stallions.:(
Not all stallions are like that.;)

They really aren't but having said that I don't want to ride with, show with, anything with any of them.

[Auventera Two]

I think there are a whole lot of well behaved, well adjusted stallions out there. It all comes back to training and socialization. Of course some stallions would never be safe at an endurance event, but I think many of them are fine. Not all of them live in solitary either. I know a breeding stallion whose job was to "babysit" weanlings! :eek: :lol: Seriously, the old man got to live in a big field with all the babies and he was a great grandpa to them.

My neighbor has a brother to my Arab mare - a 7 year old stallion. He lives in a field with a handfull of other Arabians and donkeys. I've never seen any crazy behavior, and in fact I never knew there was a stud in there until I ran across her stallion ad online a few weeks ago. I was shocked as heck. I ride past her house frequently and they all look up at me and maybe make a few trot circles around the field, and then go back to grazing. I had no idea there was a 7 yr old stallion in that field. She said he has 2 foals on the ground, so he has bred mares before.

The famous Khemosabi was ridden by a kid on trail rides with mares. I have a book about him and the owner talks about how awesome he was to deal with - never studdy or misbehaved. He knew what it was to breed, and what it was to work, and he knew the two were NEVER interchangeable.

Everytime we bred one of our mares, we always saw the stallion in person and really spent time with him, asked a ton of questions, and assessed his disposition in detail. We've seen stallions that kids were riding in halters and then stallions that were handled with two handlers and two stud chains and you were told to stand back and not get too close. Obviously, you know which we'd pick for breeding ;)

I think if you have a stallion at an endurance ride you should take extra precautions such as tying him on a hi-line with a halter, and a neck collar with a second rope. I'm not sure if it's safe to just let them go in a paddock?? I'd be concerned about that if I were a stallion owner.

As a rider, I know that when I take my mare to a ride, there could be stallions there, and that's just a chance I take. I think in general, endurance horses tend to be pretty sane, thinking animals. They work hard for a living, and they're well socialized and trained.

And quite honestly, the most vicious unruly behavior I've ever witnessed has always been out of dominant mares.

[Ghazzu]

I took my stallion to a CTR and tied him to the trailer. Tied to the next trailer were two mares. The other riders offered to move them, but there was no problem from either side.

No histrionics at the vet in.
Watering stops and mid-ride check, not an issue.
Post ride check, no problem.

Rode a good piece of the trail alongside another stallion, who was equally well-behaved, although his owner told me that if she'd had a carry permit the forst year she competed, she might have shot him.

Bottom line, it's the horse and the training, not the testicles that are the issue.

I judged CTRs for ~15 years. Saw more nutcase obnoxious geldings and mares than stallions.

Of course, that doesn't stop the stallions from getting blamed for every explosion from a mare or gelding.

[Ghazzu]

Where does a stallion spend his life??? Locked away, never a companion horse, in a pasture alone.

That's an awfully broad assumption, and, in the case of the stallion in my last post, untrue.
He spent his early life turned out with other colts, and his later life, when I owned him, turned out with geldings.



It is a terrible life just so someone can say I ride a stallion. What is the big appeal of a stallion.

The appeal, in my case, was the wonderful offspring he left me.


I rode one in a number of endurance rides in the 90's. I have owned 2 that mounted a mare in front of them while under saddle. I was on one about a week ago that suddenly lunged forward and tried mounting the gelding right in front of him .

Some people get along with stallions, some don't.
Sounds like you're in the latter category.
Not everyone is like you, though.


Cut him and free him from his solitary restless life...
It is cruel to condemn a stallion to that lonely restless life. Give me a good gelding any old day. And again I have been around stallions all my life and don't envy them and their life style

I've been around stallions all my life, as well, and none have been "condemned" to a solitary life.

[HuntrJumpr]

I am not familiar with the CDE world, but Shadow's posts kind of irked me, since they are so strongly anti-stallion. Stallions can be competed the same as any other gender, provided they are handled correctly and have a decent temperament (and if they don't, I feel someone should reconsider their stallionhood. :D) I was watching a Grand Prix the other week and several of the top finishers were stallions. They all came into the ring together and stood while their rider's accepted awards, shook hands with the other [mounted] riders, and completed the victory gallop - yes, the horses were antsy, but so were the geldings and mares that were out there, as they're all top jumpers that just finished competing.

[Foxtrot's]

All well and good if the stallion is under complete control and well behaved. However, the comments of the other competitors might well tell you if it is ok to bring him along, or not. "Oh, he is never like this normally", probably would not cut it.

[Icecapade]

I'll never own anything but stallions if I can help it...

yeah I said it! I would love to say that because I'm part of our preservation breeding program... but I don't actively breed at this point... there is no market here and its hard to do when you board and don't own your property. But I have no reason now to cut him and have had previously no reason... he is well mannered and calm... I'm not sure if he would have a pulse if I cut him! Wonderful temperment and great confirmation... I'll make a killing in pony hunters one day I know! ;)

My stallion is awake to be fed... awake to ride and asleep at all other times... he has a neighbor who paces from time to time and my horse could care less. He is moving to pasture with geldings this month... has lived with geldings and even a herd of mares... *not* in season.... they beat the ever living hell out of him and teach him to stay in his place... watch and protect dumba$$... thats your job... not breed breed breed. And they remind him in about 20 minutes... and he is good for 2 years... where as you can try to teach him that and he never will if he is sequestered away. Stallions are horses too... isolation makes them nuts.

Quietest barn I have ever been to is full of stallions... 15 I think. Pipe panels no electric, no pacing, no screaming. They play and are well adjusted. You take them out or put them in the presence of a mare... walla... stallion. THey are well adjusted NORMAL horses who get a regular life.

I have put several hundred miles on my stallion (who is 15)... and I have to be blunt... I've never met anyone who didn't like my horse. Not because he is so amazing and perfect all the time bla bla bla... but simply because in the 15 years I've owned him.... I never have. least not to my face! (although people do gush over him)

I rode competitively on him before I left for college with my dad's mare... he has never been tied to a trailer... he was always in a portable paddock and very rarely screamed at anyone. He announced himself... and he would talk like any other horse, and yes there is a difference between talking and stallion screams. At a watering troughs I'd be careful to keep a little to myself and make sure he behaved... of course he wanted to touch noses and flirt... but he didn't make a scene. Some people let thier horses do that and if they persist I let them know... but usually I don't say anything and they look at me and go... he is? (last ride I was on took me 10 minutes to convince the woman I was with he was... she simply didn't believe me)

Its the one or two that *aren't* handled well that cause issues. Or people who claim stallion as an excuse. bullshit. they have two jobs... work... and breeding. they need to know the difference and if they don't... they don't go out in public. period. Its PEOPLE not the horses (although... bad mannered stallions that are nasty I firmly believe need cutting... temperment is a MUST)

don't be sexist cause you either don't know them or can't handle them... they will die for you... give you their heart... you just have to win it first and know how to ask. A gelding rarely will do that and a mare hardly ever will... not in the same way a stallion will.

[rainechyldes]

I think there's a salient point being missed in this conversation.
Gender should not be the focus of what makes a good endurance horse. I've owned some doozies of mares and geldings that I'd rather shoot then ride in a 50.

Gender aside - you still need to look at the critical abilities that make a horse successful in any equestrian venture. Endurance as well as others.

Conformation, ability, training, personality, conditioning.

We wouldn't consider a mare or a gelding who didn't have the above as a suitable mount, and I doubt we'd even bring their gender into the conversation except as a descriptor not the reason they aren't suitable.

I've met some absolutely lovely stallions, and I even have had a few nice ones as well.
Stallions dont need to be LOCKED away, in fact, thats the worst thing to do to a stallion, and becomes in my experience oft times a selfullfilling prophecy.

They require the same stimulus and social interaction as any other horse in order to be useful card carrying members of horse society.

Can they be more work then a gelding, - yes, However some people are exceedingly good at handling/dealing with/training and riding a stallion, because they understand that a stallion is still .. a horse. And needs to be treated as such.

In travelling/working in Europe and the Med at a younger age, one thing I have noted is in NA, we tend to pussyfoot around the 'stallion' much more so then in other regions of the world, and our stallions are expected to be out of control ooo scary! when in fact there is no reason for them to be anything at all such as that.

My last stallion lived with his full brother in his pasture (gelding) quite happily and competed in endurance quite willingly and easily, as well as trail riding with friends etc. He was a full arab, but socialized and knew the rules. He knew how to stand tied. as any horse should, regardless of sex and who was walking by.

[Auventera Two]

In travelling/working in Europe and the Med at a younger age, one thing I have noted is in NA, we tend to pussyfoot around the 'stallion' much more so then in other regions of the world, and our stallions are expected to be out of control ooo scary! when in fact there is no reason for them to be anything at all such as that.

My last stallion lived with his full brother in his pasture (gelding) quite happily and competed in endurance quite willingly and easily, as well as trail riding with friends etc. He was a full arab, but socialized and knew the rules. He knew how to stand tied. as any horse should, regardless of sex and who was walking by.

Your post reminds me of the Lipizzaner stallions I watched last year. They came to Green Bay and there were at least 8 or 10 of them, all stallions, working very closely with each other. And beyond that, they were all standing tied to a hitching rail, side by side, in one end of the theatre being groomed, tacked, and prepared. They all just stood there pretty much asleep, hind legs rested, lips flopped down. Even their "baby" that they said was only 5 years old and brand new to the show.

[Guilherme]

In Brazil in 2003 we attended the National Exposition of the Mangalarga Marchador Horse. The opening ceremony included almost 200 kids from 7-18 riding and most were on stallions and most of them were breeding stock. There were no incidents.

As noted we in the U.S. expect ill behavior from stallions then tollerate and excuse it. That's just poor horsemanship. :cry:

It takes a significant level of human ability to handle and train and effectively ride a stallion. So to improve stallion behavior the first thing we have to do is improve human ability.

G.

[Icecapade]

it bothers me so much to see another stallion owner with a misbehaving stallion and giving the ... give me room I have a stallion... thats the way he is line.

oh it makes me mad. I wanna punch em in the throat. they are horses... they behave in public like everyone else. yes they have their mistakes... all horses do... they are not perfect all the time its just how it is.


I realized that the issues was handling them in endurance... and that was what someone else brought it back too. You just need to be aware I think of whats going on.... never really let your guard down, expect something to go wrong. dont' put it past someone else to do something insane that can affect your stallions behavior. (lose mares are a biggie... or people parking to close and tied on the same sides)

(saw a stallion tied so lose he could get around to the back of the trailer to the paint mare on the far side who happened to be in season... he screamed the entire 25 miles... you could hear him for miles around b/c we are the top of the mountain ridge)

That being said... there is a strong argument that stallions do not make the BEST endurance horses... because they spend a lot of 'unrequired' energy monitoring the world. We know several stallions already pointed out here that have made wonderful endurance horses... I'm not sold that mine is LOVES endurance... he loves 15-20 miles of trail... but when we raced he was beat by 50... and we never did a 100. we also were up against a 15 hand mare + 145 rider... my boy is only 13 hands w/ a 160 lb of muscle on top...(I can bench my own body weight... I'm not fat!).

Did 20 miles this weekend with a 4 yrd old mare and TB gelding and a qh gelding... none of whom he knew. We motored right on through... did it in about 4 hours and some change... no issues whatso ever... he looked like he just woke up after I hosed him off and gave him food. No screaming no hollering no stress. Just chilling and doing what we do.

but I digress... its a subject close to my heart ;)

[rainechyldes]

Just a note of interest for you Adventera. Since you mentioned him.:)

My two last stallions were khemosabi's-- in fact my last two geldings were also khemosabi grand babies. Exceptional work ethic and personalities in that bloodline. We just lost our last khemosabi line gelding this past summer.

[JackSprats Mom]

OP- As others have said its not the gender but the horse. There is one thing to consider (and I speak as a stallion owner that gelded him in December). There is ALWAYS a slight concern (regardless of how well behaved the stallion is) of what OTHER people will do around them.

I decided to geld and was VERY happy with the decision. I no longer have to worry about what happens if I fall off. Where I have to put a pen up, what happens when a horse gets loose at a ride at night (which they do alot)

So it depends on whether you're a 'stallion person' some are some aren't and whether there is a reason to keep the horse a stallion and whether his temprement is good enough.