Help me out -- Hackamores...

[jazzrider]

So I spent last night and most of this morning surfing and reading about hackamores. I've decided to try a hackamore for Jazz (yes, I've been talking about it for a while, but I'm finally motivated), who because of his injury will only be used for light riding and hacking. He has TMJ issues and really fusses with a bit in his mouth. I've been riding him for the past year with just a halter and clip reins, because he's that easy. But we're at the point where we're ready to start riding out a bit more, and I want just a bit more control because he can be a bit opinionated when he's in the mood (typical QH). So I've been surfing to learn more about hackamores, and which are the "kindest" and least likely to aggravate his TMJ issues. I think I've decided we'd like to try a Parelli :eek: hackamore and a bosal. I've been surfing for used (cheap) ones since we're just in the experimental phase, and found a used Parelli hackamore for a nice, cheap price. I'm a little more overwhelmed by the options for a bosal.

Any advice, recommendations, links? Any alternatives?

(I will add, because it will likely be asked -- we are addressing his TMJ issues. His story is long and complicated, but we are doing what we can. He can also go nicely in a bit, but he's grumpy by nature and is less grumpy without something in his mouth. And since he's just so good, I'd like to reward him with something kind and easy.)

Thanks for any advice you can give!

[Lilykoi]

You might check out the Bitless Bridle. You can find them on ebay in fake leather for under
$100. My mare came to me in a double wire and had some issues with it as you can imagine. Switched to a snaffle with no problem and then tried the bitless. She goes quite well and no longer has the issue of "bit anxiety". She is also very easy to ride and whoa is not a problem. I jump her, trail ride and anything else with it. Had to jazz it up with a fancy browband, they're a bit plain otherwise. I would reconsider a bosal. They look kind but are actually a bit tough on the nose.
Here's where you can find the Bitless: http://www.bitlessbridle.com/
Good luck!

[horselips]

Some horses can learn to quickly avoid side-pull type hackamores by inverting their necks and sticking their noses straight up in the air. Doing this renders it useless.

I prefer a modified Little S:

http://www.barrelracer.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/littles.jpg

Or modified Jim Warner:

http://www.bitsnmore.com/images/catalog (http://www.bitsnmore.com/images/catalog/reinsman_bits_web_read/R935b.jpg)


I modify them by using a round/rolled leather curb strap and wrapping the nose piece with yarn.

;)

[katarine]

don't do the bosal. Frankly the really good ones are pricey and the cheaper ones are crap. They are hard by design- or should be- and can be a PITA to maintain on the face- avoiding rubs, slight adjustments up/down, etc. I love them, don't get me wrong, but unless you are using them as a training tool developing a true bridle horse, I don't think they have a place on a trail horse's face.

For simplicity, comfort, etc...without long shanks to bang on a water bucket- the Little S, Beetle, or Jim Warner are all good ones. I have the Little S and it's just easy on the horse- not much 'whoa' but tons of lateral feel and yes- some will say it's got a horrid, hard nose band (so adjust it loose and quit riding their darn face so much) and a dreadful curb chain (really, see above parenthetical eye rolling). I have a zillion hours on mine and for less than 40 bucks, you can't go wrong. One thing to note it does need the stabilizing cable at the end of the shanks- but salt/sweat will eat it up...just replace with a bit of cord, or a slobber bar, or a bit of leather. Done. As with any hackamore or snaffle...a browband bridle is more stable.

[chicamuxen1]

I've got to say, I don't recommend people use just a halter to ride out on trails. that is what the parelli hackamore is. It's a halter with reins. a friend of mine really got into Parelli training and she did compete her horse in a halter but she raised this horse and did Parelli with him all the way. She insisted that her teenage daughter ride her young horse this way until the horse did a bad spook and bolt and her daughter had a bad fall. Yes, I know, sh*t happens. I just suggest you use a bit more than a halter.

I have included a couple of links to Indian Bosals below. The first link shows the Indian Bosals on the right side of the page, made of leather. The second link is a nice low cost rope type. I have one of these and find that I can ride a steady, reliable horse in this quite nicely. I wouldn't try it for competition as that same level headed horse would exhaust me with one of these on. but you can pleasure ride pretty well in one. It's very similar to the "bitless Bridle" except as the criss-cross pressure is down low. The Indian Bosal can be attached to any type of bridle which is a plus and keeps the cost down.

Bonnie S


http://www.outwestsaddlery.com/html/bosals____mecates.html
http://www.crazyropes.com/plinbo.html

[Icecapade]

My dad and I raced in rope halter bridles for years... my mom's mare wasn't as fond of them and we often layered a snaffle over the rope halter... and clipped the reins through the snaffle ring to the rope halter.... it have a little more ass to the bridle without actually being a direct bit.

The rope halter bridles MUST have knots on the nose band... four is usually what it takes, two on each side. If they don't you simply allow the horse to brace on a single solid rope essentially... the idea most easily said is an atheltic shoe, (i.e tenny) vs a high heel... which one hurts more when you step on it... the high heel... more lb/sq area. and I'm not saying its a pain thing... but there has to be something to get the horse's attention... as someone said.... s&*t happens. you have to have SOMETHING that will grab there attention.

I'm a big fan of hackamores (not mechanical) and bosals... slight difference tehcnically speaking. bosals are usually finer for a more advanced horse... hackamores have more weight and can really bang up a horses head... without any riders interferance.... used them many times on greener horses who get distracted... I can give them a good twap or let them rattle around with it on their own. they are heavy enough to get their attention...

not sure I would recommend a hackamore for long rides though... they can really tear a horse's jaw up. bosals are for a more advanced horse... so thats a training issue.

good luck!

[jazzrider]

Great info everyone. Really :yes:. I'm trying to keep reading the info out there, and I have to say I'm a little intimidated about being sure I've set it up/put it on right. I did buy the used Parelli hackamore this morning, since it was such a nice deal so I'll have that to try out soon.

I'm feeling a little less sure about the bosal, so will investigate some of your other recommendations ($15 for that indian hackamore is a great deal -- thanks for the link!). Will also look into the Warner and beetle hackamores.

Right now I'm just looking for inexpensive options to try -- understanding that I may just turn around and resell them.

Bonnie -- We only hack around our property in a halter -- he hasn't been up to more than that. I agree it's much safer to have more control out on trail, hence my search for a hackamore that's he'll like. Our trail rides will likely not be more than 2 hours, on easy terrain.

If it helps guide your advice -- Jazz is well trained, responsive, and not particularly forward. He will collect as if he's on a bit when I ride him in the halter and just jiggle the rains once or twice (he has dressage training). He's easy to turn and easy to stop. Not so easy to go. :D He's extremely smart, quick to learn, and quick to manipulate. When he's annoyed he shakes his head up and down and grits his teeth. if he were to act up on trail his usual thing is to try to walk/run backwards, or do a small little rear (lifting up only about six inches, because anything more would take too much effort). He hates any kind of discomfort. He's a complete whimp, and a bit of a momma's boy. My SO calls him a princess, and my BFF calls him "Little Lord Fauntelroy." See my profile for his pic.

[Icecapade]

if he is less likely to be 'forward' I really wouldn't go in a mechanical hackamore. I used to ride in one.. .because the gelding I rode didn't like bits and thats what the owner rode in (I was young and didn't know better) it's very hard to deal with a horse already having momentum issues forward to put a very very leverage mechanical thing on their face... it its OK for going along. *I dont' condemn anyone for using it* I just never recommend them or use them anymore... you can't finesse them or feel with the horse (not talking upper level dressage feel here). It's very hard I think to 'talk' to a horse with it. There is *NO* lateral movement you can expect with it... only poll bending and good brakes.

If he shakes his head a lot... a medium rawhide hackamore could be useful... easy to bump around to where you need them and if they shake they beat their own heads up, it can be a bit startling for them so let them play with it a bit... first time I used it on my stallion he was so startled that it *bit* him when he tossed his head he nearly lost me! I laughed cause I hadn't done anything!

[gabz]

I'm not sure what would or would not affect the horse's TMJ...

I have read that some endurance riders have used the Monty Robert's dually halter instead of bitted bridles. It is essentially, a web halter with 2 rounded "cords" with rings on either end, that pass through the lower cheek ring on the halter.

Similar in function to a side-pull,except that it provides nose pressure.
I'll try to find a photo / link and come back.
http://www.montyroberts.com/shop_tack_training.html#

[jazzrider]

Thanks Gabz for the link :). I'm still researching, and trying to find used options to buy and try out.

So far I've got a Parelli hackamore coming, and an indian hackamore that I can borrow to try out.

I really would like to try a bitless bridle (Dr. Cooks), but they are just too expensive and I can't seem to find any used.

Any opinions on an English jumping hackamore? Not that we'll be doing any jumping, but it looks simple, not harsh, would attach nicely to his existing bridle, and I found a used one cheap. :D

[craz4crtrs]

I have tried all types of hackamores over the years, of course it helps if you are older than dirt. :winkgrin: (50) Years ago I used the mech type. Hate them now, way too severe and too much leverage. Exceptions are the Little S (if you are careful, any bit or hack can be severe) and the cloverleaf hack.

My horses are all different in their preferences. All my horses are very well trained and are regularly ridden in plain snaffles, but are also used to curb bits and their favorite hacks.

Gator - 24 yr old arab gelding. He works in the bosal, but prefers a cloverleaf type of hack (kind of like the Little S but with a leather noseband and independent shanks). http://www.horse.com/zoomimages.aspx?sku=WBE12 Similar to a leverage type english jumping hack. The noseband english hack is just a side pull, but not as stable. He likes a western type sidepull, too. http://www.horse.com/zoomimages.aspx?sku=WCB56 Rope halter is fine, too.

Gem - 27 yr old qh gelding. He loves the bosal, fine in the clover leaf. Not as good in a halter, fine in the sidepull.

Toby - 13 yr old fjordX gelding. He works well in a bosal, as long as it isn't too hard or snug. He likes a half inch one and a 3/8 super soft flexible bosal. Very sensitive horse. He hates the clover leaf hack, too much pressure, even though it is so mild. He loves a sidepull, unfortunately he needs a 17 inch browband, so most of the rack western bridles don't fit him. I also used a Cook's bridle on him and he hated it. Too much leverage/pressure for him. Same thing on the indian type hack. He can't stand anything that doesn't release fast enough.

I wish I could get a loping hackamore to fit my fjordX, he would love that and so would the others, but they work well in so many other things. The 17 inch browband is the issue again. http://www.nrsworld.com/istarimages/mp/DM-112!DENMO-917433.jpg

Just some ideas.

[Janelle123]

Hello. I use a mechanical hackamore on my mare because she does better in it than a snaffle. I also use just a rope halter and reins, actually most of the time, but I use the MH on the trail for a bit more control if needed. I like to think that I have light hands and a quick release. I actually do get lateral flexion in the MH (we practice a lot).

Originally I only got the MH because that is what the former owner used to ride her in and I wasn't aware it had such a bad rap.

I'd like to hear more on you guys' opinions as to whether you think I 'should' continue to use it if it seems to be working well, or if not, some specific reasons (more explanation on how it functions and why you think it's detrimental to the horse) why I should not. Thanks!

I looked at a lot of those links above and I like the cloverleaf style one...I initially wanted to try the indian bosal, but then I didn't think it looked conducive to a quick release. I'm not familiar with the little S. Is it's main difference less leverage?

[sublimequine]

Hello. I use a mechanical hackamore on my mare because she does better in it than a snaffle. I also use just a rope halter and reins, actually most of the time, but I use the MH on the trail for a bit more control if needed. I like to think that I have light hands and a quick release. I actually do get lateral flexion in the MH (we practice a lot).

Originally I only got the MH because that is what the former owner used to ride her in and I wasn't aware it had such a bad rap.

I'd like to hear more on you guys' opinions as to whether you think I 'should' continue to use it if it seems to be working well, or if not, some specific reasons (more explanation on how it functions and why you think it's detrimental to the horse) why I should not. Thanks!

I looked at a lot of those links above and I like the cloverleaf style one...I initially wanted to try the indian bosal, but then I didn't think it looked conducive to a quick release. I'm not familiar with the little S. Is it's main difference less leverage?

I think if the horse goes really well in the mech hack, then there's no issue sticking with it. BUT I also believe a horse should go in the simplest, gentlest option you can muster successfully. Sometimes it's not an overnight thing either, but a gradual "step down" through a few hacks and setups.

For example, I rode my mare in a "big hack" for quite a long time. It's the plain mechanical hackamore with the long 8in shanks. She went just fine in it, no problems, but it wasn't ideal for trail rides because the dang shanks were so long they'd drag on the ground when she was trying to graze! :lol:

So I started searching for another mechanical hack with shorter shanks. Tried a few that are unsuccessful because maresie didn't like the feel of them, but FINALLY after about 4 or 5 months I found a used english mech hackamore on ebay, that the shanks have actually been bent outward slightly. This way, the shanks kind of "float" away from maresie's face, and don't bother her like the other smaller hacks did. So we went in that for I'd say 4 months or so.

Finally, got to try a bitless bridle by cook. That's what she's currently going in. She goes well in it, and honestly I have all the responsiveness in it than I did in the "big hack", but it's a lot simpler and way less leverage involved. BUT, I think if I had tried going straight from the big hack to the bitless bridle, it would've been a bit tricky. Going from the big hack, to the small hack, to the bitless has worked wonderfully.

Eventually I may try and move her all the way down to a sidepull (she's kinda heavy in a sidepull at the moment, she knows she can lean on them and have me hold her head for her with the reins, the brat! :lol: ), but for now she's really going well in the bitless bridle and my cues are no stronger than in the big hack. So I definitely consider that a sucess. :yes:

[SarahR]

I use a Spanish Jaquima on my Paso Fino mare. She's great in it, very responsive and backs up with the lightest touch:

noseband: http://www.casadosa.com/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=194

curb:
http://www.casadosa.com/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=156

You can put them on a regular headstall. Here's what it looks like set up (mine has the above noseband and curb):
http://www.casadosa.com/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=137

My husband has been riding our TWH colt in a loping hackamore and he's doing great in it. They aren't cheap either (ours is borrowed...need to set aside some $$$ to get our own).

Sarah in Durango
www.fourcornerstrails.com
I'm sure you could find them on eBay for less, too.

[jeano]

I've always wanted to try this set up, but since both my critters go fine in a bit....havent coughed up the dough
http://www.hought.com/end.s.hackamore.html

[jazzrider]

Just a quick update. I'm still waiting on the Parelli hackamore. The seller got a new horse and may flake out on selling it to me (even though I've already send a check). In the mean time, I've ordered and got this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Lower-Side-Pull-Rope-Halter-Hackamore-Bitless-Bridle_W0QQitemZ320237967290QQihZ011QQcategoryZ317 7QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l126 2

I chose it after much discussion with the wonderful person who sells them, who gave me good advice. This is one of the mildest hackamores she sells and a good start. I rode Jazzy in it for the first time today and he didn't seem to mind it at all. It may actually may be too mild -- but we'll see. We just rode in the ring and around the property -- so I need to do a test ride off property when he's a bit more zippy. But we seem to like it.

[katarine]

??seriously?? That's second rate sidepull at best. It's a rope halter....retied so you have two knots offset at the bottom instead of one.

Ok, well, all righty then. I need to get better at renaming something and making money off it as new and improved.

[saratoga]

I've always wanted to try this set up, but since both my critters go fine in a bit....havent coughed up the dough
http://www.hought.com/end.s.hackamore.html

I have the S Hackamore bridle from Hought and I love it. Took me awhile to buy it because its quite $$$, but it was worth the price.

Before that, for many years for endurance, I used a big ol' mechanical hackamore with huge shanks because I had one laying around and I started to use it and it worked fine. You just need to have really good hands for those though, or the horse is going to be really uncomfortable and reactive. It worked fine for me though- tons of control and I only had to put the tiniest amount of pressure on it to get a response.....Then I bought the S-hack bridle set up because the smaller shanks and lighter weight appealed to me. It works well for all 3 of my horses, definitely not as much "whoa" but works fine, seems comfortable for them and they all respond well to it.

I wouldnt want to ride in any kind of halter either.

[jazzrider]

??seriously?? That's second rate sidepull at best. It's a rope halter....retied so you have two knots offset at the bottom instead of one.

Ok, well, all righty then. I need to get better at renaming something and making money off it as new and improved.

I wanted to start with the kindest, simplest hackamore and work myself up from there -- remember, we've never used any hackamore on this horse before. I also was looking for something inexpensive to try -- and this one fit the bill. Can't talk to whether it's a new or old design, or whether it's first or second rate -- and it doesn't matter to me. We're in the trial phase right now, and we're giving it a try.

Seems to me that the Parelli hackamore for over $100 that's made of rope is a bigger rip off.

[Countryclips]

When I started training my 2 Rockies at age 3 I used a rope sidepull and they did wonderfull. This fall I decided to use a bit but they did not like it. so put an old fleece lined leather short shank hack on each of them and was amazed at how well they did with it. They gaited great and stopped really well. I tried it out on several other horses I have and each did super. The only one that did poor was a 6 year old MFT that I just started riding in August after some rehab from an abusive trainer. She just does not understand yet how to give to pressure so fights it. But for an inexpensive hackamore I can't complain. Now is this one supposed to be harsh? It has a chain chinstrap.

[katarine]

What I don't like and think is a bit of a rip off is where the reins are attached on this halter you bought, Jazz. and yes, Anything with PP name on it is jacked up because he can get away with it. Good for him LOL

This is where I'm coming from ...a traditional sidepull is going to cue the horse's face higher up ---like almost midway between nostril and eyeball...the seems a good place, where a horse following/yielding to pressure is going to be good with, to follow that feel pretty readily--- it's consistent and broadly saying the the right side of the face, hey, let's give and turn left, find some slack. What you've bought here (IMO, just MO) setting lower and pulling at the opposite side of their face...on an angle, pulling both back (vertically) AND laterally...something in my gut says 'resistance'- it's bracey by design- that's just what my mind's eye sees.

Look- I was at a little show last weekend, watched a girl riding a cute horse alllll over in a rope halter, having a large time...but that horse was braced braced braced- never bent his neck laterally, certainly never softened his poll- she wasn't heavy on her reins but he was super uneducated about giving and feel and softening. It was almost like she was skiing on his face- but on slack. That's what this thing looks like to me. Pseudo step in the right direction.

But hey, YMMV ;)

[sublimequine]

What I don't like and think is a bit of a rip off is where the reins are attached on this halter you bought, Jazz. and yes, Anything with PP name on it is jacked up because he can get away with it. Good for him LOL

This is where I'm coming from ...a traditional sidepull is going to cue the horse's face higher up ---like almost midway between nostril and eyeball...the seems a good place, where a horse following/yielding to pressure is going to be good with, to follow that feel pretty readily--- it's consistent and broadly saying the the right side of the face, hey, let's give and turn left, find some slack. What you've bought here (IMO, just MO) setting lower and pulling at the opposite side of their face...on an angle, pulling both back (vertically) AND laterally...something in my gut says 'resistance'- it's bracey by design- that's just what my mind's eye sees.

Look- I was at a little show last weekend, watched a girl riding a cute horse alllll over in a rope halter, having a large time...but that horse was braced braced braced- never bent his neck laterally, certainly never softened his poll- she wasn't heavy on her reins but he was super uneducated about giving and feel and softening. It was almost like she was skiing on his face- but on slack. That's what this thing looks like to me. Pseudo step in the right direction.

But hey, YMMV ;)

That's not an equipment problem though, that's a training problem.

[jazzrider]

Actually, it's a good point. I was down in the barn last night trying to figure out just how high up on the face it's supposed to go, and ended up setting it up to be just a bit higher than the picture (he's got a short, short little head). So we'll see how that goes.

I will say that the woman who made the hackamore, in our discussion, really stressed that lateral flexion needed to be taught before using a hackamore like this -- she even included a little primer in the mailing envelope about it. Fortunately, Jazz isn't much of a bracer and flexes laterally quite nicely, so I won't really know how good this hackamore will be for him until he acts up. He hates crossing small ditches so I may bring him to one at my neighbor's today to do a test -- rather than out on trail. Either that or I can put a real saddle on him -- that will make him good and grumpy since we've been riding with a bareback pad for the last year. :D

I'll let you know how it goes.

[katarine]

That's not an equipment problem though, that's a training problem.

When the equipment won't support the training, you have both problems.

[sublimequine]

When the equipment won't support the training, you have both problems.

I don't think that's true. If you're doing things right it's perfectly capable to reach a horse to give and be soft in the 'bridle' (in this case, a halter used for riding :lol: ) using a rope halter.

[katarine]

We could agree to disagree. I don't like a rope halter - used as a bridle- to teach/reinforce lessons about lateral flexion. It's fine when you're on the ground because of where you are oriented or likely to be. From the saddle...where a horse's issues might include being tensed/bracey/chargey/tight...I think the horse's needs are better served with different gear. JMO.

[sublimequine]

We could agree to disagree. I don't like a rope halter - used as a bridle- to teach/reinforce lessons about lateral flexion. It's fine when you're on the ground because of where you are oriented or likely to be. From the saddle...where a horse's issues might include being tensed/bracey/chargey/tight...I think the horse's needs are better served with different gear. JMO.

I think it all just depends on the individual horse. My mare doesn't go real well in rope halters for riding, they're actually too strong for her, with the knots in the nose. I have a rope sidepull similar to the one she ordered (only the reins come from the side of the face like a traditional sidepull), and I actually put a fleecy over the nose to cover the knots. She goes better in it that way, and by eliminating the use of the knots, it basically rides exactly like a traditional sidepull now.

BUT like I said, that's just one horse. I've seen other horses go beautifully in rope halters/sidepulls, whatever you wanna call it. Nice draped rein, neck reining beautifully, soft in the 'bridle', good flexion, etc. It can be done. :yes:

[craz4crtrs]

When I started training my 2 Rockies at age 3 I used a rope sidepull and they did wonderfull. This fall I decided to use a bit but they did not like it. so put an old fleece lined leather short shank hack on each of them and was amazed at how well they did with it. They gaited great and stopped really well. I tried it out on several other horses I have and each did super. The only one that did poor was a 6 year old MFT that I just started riding in August after some rehab from an abusive trainer. She just does not understand yet how to give to pressure so fights it. But for an inexpensive hackamore I can't complain. Now is this one supposed to be harsh? It has a chain chinstrap.

If it looks like this, no it is very mild with limited leverage. You can even put a leather curb strap on it. Like I said before, I only have one horse that doesn't like it. http://www.horse.com/zoomimages.aspx?sku=WBE12

I also said in my previous post that I really like a loping hack or a regular western sidepull, but couldn't get one in my horse's size, he's a fjordX.

I have two large size bridles made by Buckaroo leather. They fit him great. I found their website and they do make larger sidepulls and loping hacks. I contacted them and they will make the bigger browbands on the shorter cheekpieces, or vice versa. That would work great on my guy. I plan on ordering one from them, just haven't decided what I want.

They have a few sidepull or loping hack options.
All leather sidepull...
http://www.buckarooleather.com/products_gfx/LH225LS.full.jpg

Regular sidepull...
http://www.buckarooleather.com/products_gfx/LH225.full.jpg

Loping hack w/cotton reins....
http://www.buckarooleather.com/products_gfx/RW330c.full.jpg

Loping hack w/nylon rope reins...
http://www.buckarooleather.com/products_gfx/RW330.full.jpg

Now, about the rope halter type of sidepull. You will have a little more lateral control than with a plain halter, BUT, this type of rig won't be as stable on a horses face. That is what the browband and along with the fiador (throatlatch) or regular throatlatch does. It keeps the bridle in place. Look at the difference of the above sidepulls vs what you are getting. If it works, great. If you both like the hack, but it slips around, consider looking at a more conventional sidepull.

[katarine]

I've seen other horses go beautifully in rope halters/sidepulls, whatever you wanna call it.

Those two terms are not interchangeable in my mind. Therein lies the difference. OK one of many differences, between your mind and mine.

Carry on ;)

[sublimequine]

I've seen other horses go beautifully in rope halters/sidepulls, whatever you wanna call it.

Those two terms are not interchangeable in my mind. Therein lies the difference. OK one of many differences, between your mind and mine.

Carry on ;)

I think we've got some confusion as to what I'm referring to. Here's what I'm talkin about:

Here's a "rope halter with reins":
http://naturalhorsemanship.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/bridle-rides-up-72.jpg

Here's a "rope sidepull":
http://www.sunsethalters.com/sierra.jpg

They're advertised differently, but the exact same thing.

[katarine]

Sidepulls should be leather, with rope noses, and multiple places to adjust them for stability. This thread already has good examples shown.

Rope halters - with our w/o funky or additional loops...are rope halters. adding loops doesn't make it a sidepull (in my world, in more traditional terms) anymore than earrings and pearls would make my husband, my wife ;)

[Auventera Two]

All 3 of my horses go great in a rope halter with reins - never had a problem. I guess I just don't use them regularly because I don't like the looks of them. Just a personal choice I guess. But I have used them several times on each of my horses when I'm going to be hacking around the fields at home or if I ended up at the ride location without my bridle. Yes, I've done it a couple times. The only reason I even own rope halters is that they are required in my mounted patrol group.

I like the Little S a LOT. I do not like that chain under the chin. I replaced it with a leather curb strap, also replaced the hobble with a cord. Also I replaced the nose with a Beta flat noseband from Hought. Later I ditched the "S" shanks and just attached the reins, noseband, and leather curb to 2 small rings so there was zero leverage action. My horse goes great in that too. But she is extremely sensitive in the nose and mouth. Extremely sensitive.

I have her back in a bit now because the last long ride I did in my modified S Hack, it was really hot, she was sweating under the Beta noseband, and she got really scurfy, skin peeling, etc. It then got sensitive. She's going so well in this bit I'm going to leave her in it for as long as she keeps enjoying it. I'll switch her up again if I have to.

I like it that my horses can go in just about anything from rope halter to curb bit to snaffle bit to sidepull to hackamore. I also think it's about training more than equipment.

I used to have an Arabian mare (died at about 30 years old) that could be ridden 100% safely and happily with a string around her neck. She was a reining horse in her hayday and ooooooh was she sensitive. She was taught to neckrein and stop like there was no tomorrow. What a really cool horse. I rode her a LOT with no bridle at all, just that loop around her neck.

[sublimequine]

Sidepulls should be leather, with rope noses, and multiple places to adjust them for stability. This thread already has good examples shown.

Rope halters - with our w/o funky or additional loops...are rope halters. adding loops doesn't make it a sidepull (in my world, in more traditional terms) anymore than earrings and pearls would make my husband, my wife ;)

Rope equipment aside, by your definition none of these are sidepulls:

http://www.horse.com/Western-Tack/Headstalls/Nylon-Side-Pull-WQA10.html

http://www.nrsworld.com/istar.asp?a=6&id=38074!RUHTE

http://www.rods.com/p/425,129_Flat-Leather-Nose-Sidepull.html

So what would you call these?

But in either case, we're getting off topic. Not all rope tack are rope halters, and not all sidepulls are leather with a rope nose. I think OP should try as many choices as she can, and I totally applaud her for trying something gentle first. Good luck OP, let us know what your horse thinks of what you ordered! :yes:

A2; I didn't know about the neoprene/beta? noseband making your mare's nose all scurfy and peeling. Has it healed over? Sorry that happened! :(

[katarine]

SE =those are sidepulls...your superfluous point is taken on the strap materials/nose materials..but the really key point of mine - the key difference between a sidepull and a rope halter...remains: can you tell me what it is? Because that's my main and key point. Not nylon vs leather vs beta.

Training equipment should fit the horse well. That helps you train better. Sidepulls are better than rope halters for training from the saddle.

And my Little S hacks continue to sport their original dreadful rope noses and no one after all these years has sweated/scurfed/pinked up/reddened up/bled slightly/bled profusely/cried/whimpered...nothing. Maybe a thin sliver of sweat. The horrors.

I don't 'not' applaud Jazz for opting for kindest first. I think the OP and I are fine, thanks very much...we're just talking here. I remain unconvinced a modified rope halter is as stable on the face as a piece of riding equipment and ideal - particularly for a TWH who may have a lot of head shake. I'd rather see a real sidepull or a polite, small, mechanical hackamore.

JMO.

[jazzrider]

I don't 'not' applaud Jazz for opting for kindest first. I think the OP and I are fine, thanks very much...we're just talking here. I remain unconvinced a modified rope halter is as stable on the face as a piece of riding equipment and ideal - particularly for a TWH who may have a lot of head shake. I'd rather see a real sidepull or a polite, small, mechanical hackamore.

JMO.

True, and to be honest -- I don't mind the side conversation because it's all educational for me (and I'm used to the bickering :winkgrin:). But I should clarify, K, that the hackamore is for my QH Jazz, who is a well trained in both dressage and reining, and not my TWH. So the only head shaking that occurs is when he's annoyed with me. :D

[sublimequine]

SE =those are sidepulls...your superfluous point is taken on the strap materials/nose materials..but the really key point of mine - the key difference between a sidepull and a rope halter...remains: can you tell me what it is? Because that's my main and key point. Not nylon vs leather vs beta.

Training equipment should fit the horse well. That helps you train better. Sidepulls are better than rope halters for training from the saddle.

And my Little S hacks continue to sport their original dreadful rope noses and no one after all these years has sweated/scurfed/pinked up/reddened up/bled slightly/bled profusely/cried/whimpered...nothing. Maybe a thin sliver of sweat. The horrors.

I don't 'not' applaud Jazz for opting for kindest first. I think the OP and I are fine, thanks very much...we're just talking here. I remain unconvinced a modified rope halter is as stable on the face as a piece of riding equipment and ideal - particularly for a TWH who may have a lot of head shake. I'd rather see a real sidepull or a polite, small, mechanical hackamore.

JMO.

I never stated you weren't encouraging OP to go for the kindest first, I was saying that to try and head back towards being on topic. Had nothing to do with what you've said so far, and it's something we both can agree on.

Otherwise, I still disagree on basically everything else. But we already know we'll never come to an agreement on much of anything, as history has demonstrated. :lol:

[Auventera Two]

And my Little S hacks continue to sport their original dreadful rope noses and no one after all these years has sweated/scurfed/pinked up/reddened up/bled slightly/bled profusely/cried/whimpered...nothing. Maybe a thin sliver of sweat. The horrors.

Well that's great it works for you. Some horses have more sensitive skin than others. Particularly if they're ridden 5 or 6 days a week. I used to ride 1-2 hours a day, 5 days a week on my QH - did it for months - and never had a problem with the rawhide nose on the Little S. The POA and the Arab both however have gotten rub marks from it. What works for some horses might not work for others.

[katarine]

So, Sublime ...are you going to answer my question?

SE =those are sidepulls...your superfluous point is taken on the strap materials/nose materials..but the really key point of mine - the key difference between a sidepull and a rope halter...remains: can you tell me what it is? Because that's my main and key point. Not nylon vs leather vs beta.


Jazz- good! Glad to hear it's the QH ;) My TWH gets defensive if he's asked to move out in a halter on a slack line...too much action in the line and he worries, so I'm sensitive to that about them...my SSH/TWH filly though, would never even NOTICE. Goat.

[sublimequine]

So, Sublime ...are you going to answer my question?

SE =those are sidepulls...your superfluous point is taken on the strap materials/nose materials..but the really key point of mine - the key difference between a sidepull and a rope halter...remains: can you tell me what it is? Because that's my main and key point. Not nylon vs leather vs beta.


Jazz- good! Glad to hear it's the QH ;) My TWH gets defensive if he's asked to move out in a halter on a slack line...too much action in the line and he worries, so I'm sensitive to that about them...my SSH/TWH filly though, would never even NOTICE. Goat.

I don't have anything to prove to you, so no, I'm not going to answer your question. :lol:

[jazzrider]

Goat.

Is this a statement or a question? :lol:

[katarine]

That horse IS a goat. Ate most of a 50lb sack of corn, a bale of alfalfa, and I don't know how much Triple Crown Complete. Vetted her pretty hard and heavy and soon as we caught her...and she had ZERO ill effects.

And SE, I wanted clarification if you understood what I'd posted. You'd rather be a smart ass, that's your choice.

[Auventera Two]

A2; I didn't know about the neoprene/beta? noseband making your mare's nose all scurfy and peeling. Has it healed over? Sorry that happened! :(

Thanks sublime. :) No, it isn't back to normal yet. I think it was just too much use (too many days of riding) with too much heat/sweat. I've read about the Zilco breastcollars rubbing like that too but I've never had that problem so I was really surprised. But she's doing really well in this bit so I'll carry on with this path for a while.

[sublimequine]

Thanks sublime. :) No, it isn't back to normal yet. I think it was just too much use (too many days of riding) with too much heat/sweat. I've read about the Zilco breastcollars rubbing like that too but I've never had that problem so I was really surprised. But she's doing really well in this bit so I'll carry on with this path for a while.

I'm glad you found a bit she likes. I use Corona on my mare whenever she gets peely or scurfy (she's got sensitive skin so I have to deal with it more often than I'd like :dead: ), it works pretty quickly. :)

[Auventera Two]

I've never tried Corona but I've heard so many good things, I'll have to give it a try.

[sublimequine]

I've never tried Corona but I've heard so many good things, I'll have to give it a try.

It's great stuff. Inexpensive, and really keeps the skin soft so that the peeling stops and keeps things from getting chapped. The only downside to it really for me is that it attracts dirt, so every day when I use it I have to clean the area super-good, then reapply a "fresh layer" of it. :lol:

I like it too because it's really thick, so it doesn't run if the horse is outside in the rain, or if it's warm out. :)

[jazzrider]

Ok, I'm just giving a quick update, now that I've had time to try out the low side pull on Jazz (I didn't get the Parelli halter -- the seller flaked out at the last minute).

I have to say that Jazzy really likes it. He's been good as gold, despite my attempts to rile him a bit to see how effective it is. So I haven't been able to test it when he's being a jerk (which on rare occasions he can be -- stubborn and stiff and bracing). He gives to it nicely, doesn't seem to mind the tension on his nose or sides at all. He's responsive, and very relaxed in it (more so, oddly, then when I ride him in a halter and lead rope). So we like it. But because he's not ready to hit the trail yet (we're just getting him fit in my ring, around the property and my neighbor's field) and he's been strangely happy (Jazz tends to be a bit grumpy by nature) it hasn't been truly tested.

My gut tells me that while this is a keeper, maybe we need to try something with just a wee bit more control for when we hit the trail.

So any suggestions for the next step, that won't cost me a ton?

[jazzrider]

Bumping this up for opinions on an affordable next try...

[sonata]

Personally, I would give the englsh or cloverleaf hackamore a try. It is inexpensive, has a leather nosepiece that is padded with fleece. My old 1/2 arab went great in it. I rode him the last 18 years of his life in it. He died at the age of 25. His little sister goes great in hers. She is very quick and responsive, but much happier than in any bit that i tried. She also has a low pallet, like her brother, so most bits were quite uncomfortable. The hackamore runs around 20.00 at most tack stores.

[katarine]

My answer is unchanged from my original posting(s).

[goeslikestink]

Thanks Gabz for the link :). I'm still researching, and trying to find used options to buy and try out.

So far I've got a Parelli hackamore coming, and an indian hackamore that I can borrow to try out.

I really would like to try a bitless bridle (Dr. Cooks), but they are just too expensive and I can't seem to find any used.

Any opinions on an English jumping hackamore? Not that we'll be doing any jumping, but it looks simple, not harsh, would attach nicely to his existing bridle, and I found a used one cheap. :D

i wouldnt reccomend any hackmore as it works on the most sensitve part of the horse
ie the bridge of his nose its a severe bitless peice of equipment and only to be used by expreince hands if used incorrectly you can cut of his airways and i certainly wouldnt reccomend it for a novice rider either to use in work schooling or jumping
if yu want the horse to b more obediant then go back to basics and learn to ride the horse from butt to poll to a relaxed yaw via schooling the horse in the corrct manner

[sublimequine]

i wouldnt reccomend any hackmore as it works on the most sensitve part of the horse
ie the bridge of his nose its a severe bitless peice of equipment and only to be used by expreince hands if used incorrectly you can cut of his airways and i certainly wouldnt reccomend it for a novice rider either to use in work schooling or jumping
if yu want the horse to b more obediant then go back to basics and learn to ride the horse from butt to poll to a relaxed yaw via schooling the horse in the corrct manner

You can only obstruct breathing if the hackamore is placed too low on the nose. And some styles of bitless setups are extremely forgiving, even moreso I'd say than a snaffle. A sidepull is a good example of this.

And a lot of people jump bitless, there are quite a few famous show jumpers that go in :GASP!: mechanical hackamores. :lol:

[goeslikestink]

You can only obstruct breathing if the hackamore is placed too low on the nose. And some styles of bitless setups are extremely forgiving, even moreso I'd say than a snaffle. A sidepull is a good example of this.

And a lot of people jump bitless, there are quite a few famous show jumpers that go in :GASP!: mechanical hackamores. :lol:
yes that correct there are famous show jumpers that jump in hackamores but then thye are more expreinced than the average joe bloggs

[jazzrider]

i wouldnt reccomend any hackmore as it works on the most sensitve part of the horse
ie the bridge of his nose its a severe bitless peice of equipment and only to be used by expreince hands if used incorrectly you can cut of his airways and i certainly wouldnt reccomend it for a novice rider either to use in work schooling or jumping
if yu want the horse to b more obediant then go back to basics and learn to ride the horse from butt to poll to a relaxed yaw via schooling the horse in the corrct manner

Thanks for the feedback on the jumping hackamore GLS, I'll keep it in mind. If you read the thread you would know that I'm not a novice rider, that we're certainly not planning on jumping in it (Jazz is recovering from an injury and will only be able to do very light riding), and that he is well trained and a good horse who knows "the basics" better than me. He has TMJ issues and since he's so good and we'll really just be puttering around (and I've been riding him for the past year in just a halter and lead rope), I'm looking for a very mild hackamore to use out on trail that will give me a small amount of control if he has a difficult moment.

I'm actually thinking right now that I'll look for a sidepull that isn't made of rope...

[sublimequine]

Thanks for the feedback on the jumping hackamore GLS, I'll keep it in mind. If you read the thread you would know that I'm not a novice rider, that we're certainly not planning on jumping in it (Jazz is recovering from an injury and will only be able to do very light riding), and that he is well trained and a good horse who knows "the basics" better than me. He has TMJ issues and since he's so good and we'll really just be puttering around (and I've been riding him for the past year in just a halter and lead rope), I'm looking for a very mild hackamore to use out on trail that will give me a small amount of control if he has a difficult moment.

I'm actually thinking right now that I'll look for a sidepull that isn't made of rope...

horse.com has a nylon one that has I think a cotton nose for $20. Or if you wanted something fancy, there's a few places that make one with a leather nose, but those are pretty expensive.

They also have rawhide nose ones, but I don't really think those are any less abrasive than rope.

[Bogie]

I've written quite a bit about riding bitless. If you're interested, here are some of my articles:

On the Bit(less) Bridle: A Comparison (http://equineink.wordpress.com/2008/04/04/on-the-bitless-bridle-a-comparison/)

LG Bitless Bridle offers Calibrated Control
(http://equineink.wordpress.com/reviews/lg-bitless-bridle/)
Dr. Cook's Bitless Bridle: Will a Cross Under Design Work for your Horse? (http://equineink.wordpress.com/2008/09/30/dr-cooks-bitless-bridle-will-a-cross-under-design-work-for-your-horse/)

Micklem Multibridle Side Pull Configuration (http://equineink.wordpress.com/2008/05/20/micklem-multibridle-side-pull-configuration/)

Micklem Multibridle Medium and Strong Configurations
(http://equineink.wordpress.com/2008/09/29/micklem-multibridle-medium-and-strong-bitless-configurations/)
Which type of bitless bridle you use depends on how your horse responds to pressure on his head. Some do better with poll pressure, others do better with a side pull; others with some curb action. It also depends on whether you want to ride with contact.

Among the true mechanical hackamores, I prefer the Little S but wrap the rope in fleece.

[jazzrider]

Thanks for the links, Bogie!