When/how to talk to your farrier? (Heel/trimming question)

[texaseventer]

I am a little concerned about the way my farrier is trimming my horse's foot, that he doesn't have enough heel.

I am no expert. I just know what I see elsewhere (on a lot of the horses at Greenwood last weekend for example) and I am getting concerned.

I am not sure how to open this conversation. He's a really nice guy and the last time I asked him to trim my horse's toes back a bit and square them up a little (he was forging and hitting his front shoes) he did and it was great... there was no problem with me commenting on the way he was doing the back feet.

I don't know why I'm so anxious about this conversation so any suggestions (or pictures of good/bad feet) would be appreciated.

I am trying to find someone to give me a 2nd opinion as well, I am doing my homework and looking for other trustworthy farriers in my area to give me an "opinion".

So if I say "Mr. Farrier, I'm concerned about the amount of heel my horse has. Can you leave it to grow... or can you tell me about your process here"?

This guy does all the horses in my barn save for 2 (one of whom has a medical issue). I don't want to cause a ruckus but I want my horse's feet to be well cared for! He comes first! This wonderful pony tries his heart out for me every single day and I want to be doing the best thing I can for him!

Suggestions, photos, etc...? Has anyone been in this position before?
Thank you!!

[flyingchange]

It is a tough one ....

I have found the least "insulting" way to ask my farrier about how he is trimming is to just say that the vet commented on this or that and wanted me to know why he is trimming/shoeing a certain way.

Heel length is a tough one. Some OTTBs that have no heel and lots of toe seem to have a very hard time getting any heel growth as their whole foot/hoof has been allowed to grow out in front of them for so long. So the farrier can trim off the toe and set the shoe back to try to support the heel. But 4 weeks later you can have a whole lot of toe and still no heel. I have had this problem with a very sweet and valuable (in the TB breeding world) TB mare.

Anyway, good luck talking to your farrier. It is not a fun thing to plan to do - but once you are actually doing it, not usually a big deal if they are reasonable (sometimes this is a big IF, I know!).

[Hilary]

I'd just start talking to him - I talk with my farrier all the time - ask questions - why does this look like it does, what's going on with that, compared to the other horse, this one looks different etc.

She is VERY opinionated and sometimes I just have to let her talk if she's got an odd idea (or just listen as she rants and rails about how AWFUL my TB's feet are) , but I think if you start talking with him as a genuinely interested horse owner, you'll start a dialog that will allow you to ask more questions, and be more directive if need be.

Even something like "you know, I went to an event last weekend and noticed a lot of horses seemed to have a ton of heel. Sparky's feet don't look like that - can you tell me why?"

if he is worth his salt he'll be able to explain the hows and whys.

Some horses will never have a lot of heel.

[texaseventer]

Thanks, both of you :)

My baby is an appendix QH who raced as a 3 year old but not for long!

I think I will just open the conversation with "you know, I saw a lot of horses..." and let him talk. When I asked him to change up his back feet he came out and redid them free of charge, so I think (hope) he'll be open to my concerns.

Thank you!

[Long Shadow Farm]

Most of the time farriers love to talk about what is going on and why. I know that my current farrier and I are always discussing what is going on with the horses feet and if we can do anything to improve them. Matter of fact, we are going to put a small wedge on my OTTB's fronts next time because he isn't growing enough heel to suit my farrier. If your farrier is so sensitive to his job, he gets upset when you ask a simple question, then I would be concerned.

Bobbi

[snoopy]

I can never understand some people's reluctance to speak to their farriers...I just do not get it. I have one of the best in the area and I still "remind" him to leave the heal alone and trim back the toe. Some farriers are not on board with this thought process and if they give you a hard time, find another one.
This whole "god" complex given to farriers is beyond me.

Explain to your farrier that long toes and low heals is a no no for event horses.

Also my vet and my farrier meet once a year for a joint "pow-wow" session and all three of us are on the same page when it comes to how the feet should be done.

[LOVE*MY*NAGS]

I can't understand why anyone has an issue talking to the farrier. I ask my farrier all kinds of questions!! He LIKES THAT I ASK QUESTIONS!!! He answers them!! Thats what he's there for!
For an example, I had an issue with my horse tripping. Thats the reason I changed farriers, to this guy. I told him my concern. He explained why my horse tripped (angles, toe, heel, etc....) and changed some things. Point blank told me: "See how that works, if he still trips, call me and I will change (whatever he did) more and we will take care of it". He wants to have my horse move correctly. Farriers aren't mind readers, they aren't riding your horse or watching them on a daily basis. If you don't tell him, he's not going to know, so he will probably continue to do the same trim over and over assuming he's doing a good job for you!!!! TALK TO HIM!!!!!! Say to Mr. Farrier "I noticed my horse has really low heels compared to all these horses feet, is this OK?" Or whatever your concern is........Spit it out!! I don't think he's going to bite you.......

[flyingchange]

From a farrier's perspective (I'm not a farrier but am friends with several) ...

Farriers can become reluctant to discuss shoeing/trimming principles with clients because of bad experiences with lay people in the past. Specifically, clueless horse owners who read an article or two or attend a trimming seminar or have a friend look at their horse's feet, or a vet - and they then get some "different" ideas on how their horses should be trimmed/shoed. They unfortunately go about "discussing" the issue with the farrier in kind of a shitty way, with a "my way or the highway" approach. And the shit of it is that they are clueless and have no idea what they are talking about. Farrier either is able to patiently talk to the clueless client and educate them or they meet in the middle (with farrier sometimes having to do trims that he is reluctant to do). In this second case scenario, horse sometimes goes lame and, guess who gets blamed....

So, the issue is not that the farriers don't want to talk about farrier principles with owners ... its just that many times they have had one or many bad experiences with owners who decide to get involved and are clueless. Suddenly owner demands changes to a horse who is going perfectly fine - sound as a dollar - with zero basis except they "heard" this or their friend said "that" ....

If the owner is willing to learn and is respectful in his or her approach to the discussion and asking questions, then it is different. Especially if the owner is willing to truely learn. But someone coming in "off the street" so to speak, and questioning this and demanding that when they don't know what they are talking about is rather insulting and annoying to anybody practicing a trade that they have acutally earned credentials to do and have been busting their asses doing for years.

You wouldn't just walk into someone's lab and start questioning everything they are doing - you would put some careful thought into how you would execute such a task. Same with a farrier. That's all I'm saying.

[texaseventer]

Thanks :)

I don't think my farrier is god or a mind-reader. I'm not scared to talk to him. I just don't know HOW to open this conversation ensuring that I'm not sounding like I'm attacking his work!

As I said before, I asked him to trim up my horse's back feet differently and he was very open to that. I guess the heel trim thing I just feel a little differently about - since with the back feet issue, my horse was definitely hitting his front shoes... this was an obvious cause/effect (which has since been solved). The heel thing is more my own observation.

:) Thanks everyone!

[LOVE*MY*NAGS]

OK ~ How about "Wow, you really fixed my horses problem with his forging! Thanks so much........I had another question about my horses front feet........"
I don't think that sounds attacking.
And if he really needs to be sweetened up, theres always chocolate chip cookies:)

[CookiePony]

He might well have plenty of heel-- it just is underrun and crushed.

If you post pictures over at Horse Care then you can get suggestions on exactly what to say to your farrier.

[jpalisades]

If you have any concerns/questions about how you horse is trimmed or shod, ASK!!

Some farriers are great about explaining why he/she did things a certain way. One thing I have learned after 14 years training horses (mostly OTTBs for eventing) is- if you farrier is going to get "nasty" about the owner of the horse (who is paying his bills, by the way) asking questions or telling him/her that something has changed and 'could it be he/she has made any changes lately'..... get another farrier.

You need to have a farrier who is confident in their work, able to accept when something may be wrong, and is willing to work with you and your other horse professionals who work on/with your horse!

[JB]

I started talking to my farrier by comment on how I'd gotten interested in hoof care and had been reading. I mentioned something I was seeing in my horse (long toes) and asked about how that compared to what I'd been reading about "keep toes short".

Over the course of a few conversations, it became clear, through his answers to my questions, that he wasn't willing to change. He actually told me "I can't back his toes up without making him sore."

So, because things ended up going that direction , I changed farriers, and the first thing the new one did was back the toes up and guess what, horse wasn't sore :rolleyes:

So, my point is, start conversations aimed at "I'm trying to learn", and start basing opinions on what sort of feedback you are getting.

[dwblover]

I agree with JB, when I have something I really want to discuss with my farrier I always pose it as a question. I asked farrier number one "What are the reasons that his left toe is longer than his right?" He answered that if he trimmed it more the horse would be lame. After a few more months of a lame horse, I switched. New farrier cut a lot of toe off, and horse was better. Even with the new farrier we have discussions about my guy's feet. Luckily my vet had taken radiographs so I use those as a reference point. My guy's left heel needed to be raised according to the x-rays and my new farrier was reluctant. But my horse was hurting, so I simply said "according to the radiographs that were taken very recently the angle on that left foot needs to change. What's your opinion?" He was very willing to at least try it and my horse is now a happy boy. But you do have to be an advocate for your horse and if you truly feel something needs to change you may just have to keep bringing it up.

[BornToRide]

I am not sure how to open this conversation. He's a really nice guy and the last time I asked him to trim my horse's toes back a bit and square them up a little (he was forging and hitting his front shoes) he did and it was great... there was no problem with me commenting on the way he was doing the back feet.


Generally speaking, you should not have to. Any good hoof care provider should be able to spot problems and address them without them being pointed out to them!

Now having said this, I see your horse wears shoes. Shoes always interfere with hoof form and proprioception by taking away the necessary ground stimulation a hoof needs to grwo healthy!

A horse generally forges because they do not get the front hooves out of the way fast enough . This is usually due to delayed break-over from proprioception inhibition thanks to shoes and/or long toes.

Shoes also often create underslung heels and forward growing toes in horses that are prone to that, no matter how much the farrier brings that toe back each time and support the heels with the shoe. A diet high in starches and sugars can often exacerbate this problem too.

Bottom line - your farrier may be limited as to what he can do, depending on other contributing factors!

Now if he does whack the heels off each time, than that would be completely a trimming issue, in which case he should know better!

[amastrike]

Say, "gee, it looks like my horse doesn't have much heel in comparison to other horses I've seen, why is that?" Ask questions to get to the point, don't just come right out with "um, I don't think you're trimming my horse right, he has no heel." Most farriers are happy to talk about their work. Just ask why he's trimming the way he is. He might have a darn good explanation for why your horse's feet are they way they are, or he might agree to do what you've implied you want and trim to keep/create heel.

[Larbear]

Suggestions, photos, etc...? Has anyone been in this position before?
Thank you!!

Well, you should try to talk to your farrier but...you might want to call around and get some references for other farriers just in case.

[Larbear]

I can never understand some people's reluctance to speak to their farriers...I just do not get it.

Afraid of confrontation maybe? Either that or not knowing who else to take over the job if the conversation goes badly. After two times trying to talk to my farrier about the the concerns I had with my horse's feet (balance issues and underrun heels) I was left a note that it was time for me to work with someone else...hindsight though, turned out to be a good thing.

[BornToRide]

This is what I experienced:

Mare with very upright front end conformation and high heels started to have issues under saddle. It quickly escalated to dangerous behavior. I was called in to do bodywork on her and remarked that I thought the proble stemmed from her front hooves with the very high heels.

Farrier wanted to argue with me about his trimming.:rolleyes: Long story short - Horse was seen by a different farrier, trimmed correctly and all shoulder and under saddle issues resolved. The horse is back to normal.

It is often very difficult to speak with an insecure, defensive person. They can't even listen long enough to the other person concerns because they are way too occupied with justifying what they did, since possibly admitting to mistakes is perceived too much as weakness.....

[LMH]

Am I the only one that has an issue with having to explain to a farrier how to do his job? Or any professional, for that matter.

Seriously, IF i have to have 'the talk' in my mind I am just postponing THE TALK...the thank you for your commitment but I will be seeking service elsewhere.

[Posting Trot]

To be fair, though, I think in the OP's case, "the talk" with the farrier is really one based on wanting to know why her horse's feet look different from some other horses' feet. And maybe it's a good thing they do, and it's just a question of the farrier being able to explain what he's doing and why it's right for her horse.

The OP asked for websites/pictures as well. You might go to http://www.hopeforsoundness.com (http://www.hopeforsoundness.com/) which is the NB site. There's an excellent tutorial on balancing the hoof that has pictures as well as detailed drawings.

You could also look at the case studies on the http://www.ironfreehoof.com (http://www.ironfreehoof.com/) page. This is a barefoot site, but it can give you an idea of what a balanced hoof looks like (which is similar whether the horse is shod or not).

[texaseventer]

You have summed up my dilemma very diplomatically and thank you very much for the online references!

I don't have reason to think something is WRONG, I just want to educate myself. If my horse indeed doesn't have enough heel I want to know why he's being trimmed a certain way... I don't want to come across as being a know it all because I read a few articles about hoof care you know?

Myself, I would hate it if someone just fired me without asking WHY I did something a certain way. I have a sound, happy horse. I just want to know if I should be concerned about his heel. So I'm going to ask. My current farrier, other farriers. I'm going to educate myself with other opinions!

I really appreciate everyone's help and suggestions. Keep 'em coming if you've got them! :) The farrier will be here in two weeks so I'll be speaking to him then.

Mandy and Joy

[Daydream Believer]

I can speak from the perspective of both an owner and a trimmer...and I now trim for clients. It has been interesting to have been on both sides of the fence. I have had farriers in the past that were very defensive and I've had some that shared and taught everything they knew happily. My initial trainers were farriers...it was not until the last couple of years that I've worked with barefoot trimmers mostly.

As for owners asking me questions..I encourage it. I try to explain what I see when I evaluate a new horse and I try to educate at the same time and share the plan to bring their horse's feet into good function (if there is a problem). As a trimmer, I can't fix a horse's feet sometimes without the owner being completely on board as part of the team. People respond so much better when you treat them like a team member and not someone who just stands there and holds the horse and writes the check. I think my clients like my style...I am getting busier than ever and I had one client tell me the other day that they like that I do not talk down to them and was willing to explain things in detail.

I wanted to add to that your best defense is to educate yourself on good hoof form and good trimming/farrier practices. Get on some of the websites posted and check out the case studies. Know what a hoof pathology is and how it can be fixed or dealt with.

As for how to deal with this farrier...approach him in a respectful way and just say that you were wondering why his feet are like they are as compared to some other horse. Don't accept a blow off answer like "those are his genes" either...I can tell you that 9 times out of 10 it's not genetic but trim, health, or environment related. Ask what the plan is to fix his problems and what you can do as the owner to help. You might be pleasantly surprise...and if you don't get a satisfactory response, you might consider looking for a new farrier.

[JHUshoer20]

As I've said before there are only 2 kinds of horseshoers. Those who have been fired and those who will be. Sounds like this guy is about to be. Shame too, sounds like he's served you well but is about to become a casualty of a fickle owner.

Very oftentimes all it really takes is a new friend, barn buddy, or trainer entering the picture saying "my shoer is great, yours sucks, you really ought to be using mine." We have all gained work as well as lost it this way. Often it ends a years long good working relationship. We accept it as part of the horse business.

To the OP if your horse is doing well and sound and the guy shows up and provides a good service quit your daggone worrying and let the guy do his job in peace!:o:yes:
George

[Larbear]

As I've said before there are only 2 kinds of horseshoers. Those who have been fired and those who will be. Sounds like this guy is about to be. Shame too, sounds like he's served you well but is about to become a casualty of a fickle owner.


Yup owners that try to ask questions and educate themselves...fickle. It's no wonder some people get intimidated to have conversations with their farriers.



To the OP if your horse is doing well and sound and the guy shows up and provides a good service quit your daggone worrying and let the guy do his job in peace!:o:yes:
George

So as the OP had mentioned she thinks her horse has 'no heel's'. So. If he really does have heels but they're underrun, he's fine for the moment but down the road? If she can educate herself to see if they're really underrun, would it not be better to address this sooner than later?

[texaseventer]

Thanks Larbear :)

As for the post eluding to me being a "fickle" owner, I do take offense. I am trying to educate myself and I am asking questions on HOW TO APPROACH this subject with my farrier. I like him. He's taken my questions and answered them before. I'm just a bit worried how to broach this specific topic. Again, I want to educate myself and I am not interested in firing my farrier.

And yes, this is about down the road. We have another horse at our barn who is now being treated for a chronic condition that the vet says is a result of her being shod w/ such little heel for so many years. I just want to be sure I am doing the BEST THING FOR MY HORSE - now and in the future.

Thanks everyone for all your constructive advice and suggestions.

Mandy

[LJ1972]

There are different ways to word things. I wouldn't say to him - "Why did you do my horse's heels this way", but I might ask him, "Why do you think my horse's heels are like this? They look different than others I have seen" That puts the focus on your horse, and it doesn't make it sound like you are questioning his work. Most farriers I have worked with enjoy explaining their opinion of your horses' feet. But, most of them don't like to feel criticized, just like anybody else.

[saddleup]

I guess it boils down to whether or not you have a good relationship with your farrier. I've used my farrier for 13 years, and I wouldn't hesitate -- I haven't hesitated -- to ask him what he's doing and why as he's cared for my three horses.

I don't see what the big deal is, frankly. Just ask your question.

[Tom Bloomer]

I'm going to educate myself with other opinions!Why not educate yourself by studying hoof care from a reputable source of information?

You could start with a good book:

http://www.amazon.com/Maximum-Hoof-Power-Performance-Management/dp/0876059647

Then your discussion with your farrier would be informed and intelligent instead of your information being based on the "opinions" of other laypeople who probably don't know any more aout hoof care than you do.

You've already got sombody in this thread trying to feed you bogus information and junk science on proprioception (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception). Don't step in it!

[Tom Stovall]

texaseventer in gray, stuff deleted

As for the post eluding to me being a "fickle" owner, I do take offense.

Why? You haven't talked to your farrier about what you perceive to be a problem involving your farrier; instead, you've posted on a forum infested with layfolk and folks of the barefoot persuasion, many of whom know less about hoof care than you do.

I am trying to educate myself and I am asking questions on HOW TO APPROACH this subject with my farrier.

You're going at it with an apparently preconceived notion that your farrier is doing something wrong.

I like him. He's taken my questions and answered them before. I'm just a bit worried how to broach this specific topic. Again, I want to educate myself and I am not interested in firing my farrier.

Fair enough. If you want to educate yourself, then go to the nearest library and find Stashak's, Adams, Lameness in Horses. It's the more-or-less standard text for vet students and reference for practicing equine practitioners and you'll find a wealth of information within its covers. If you want an overview of hoofcare and pathologies affecting the hoof, see <http://www.equipodiatry.com/>. Stay away from the barefoot websites, most of them are so full of junkscience, disinformation, misinformation, propaganda, and outright lies that a layperson will have trouble separating fact from fantasy.

And yes, this is about down the road. We have another horse at our barn who is now being treated for a chronic condition that the vet says is a result of her being shod w/ such little heel for so many years.

While it's trendy and politically correct to blame the farrier for everything but the Kennedys' assassinations, in reality, unless the vet is clairvoyant, he could not possibly know whether a presentation of LTLH (i.e., heel fibers growing medially to the hoof's central axis instead of laterally) was the result of bad shoeing, the horse's bad choice of antecedents, or some other reason! Despite the nonsense one reads on this and other forums, it is impossible to determine the exact cause of any chronic LTLH presentation and anyone who claims they can will probably lie about something else.

I just want to be sure I am doing the BEST THING FOR MY HORSE - now and in the future.

I applaud your intent to educate yourself, but you won't find that education on this forum. After you hit the stacks and take a look at Dr. O'Grady's website for some background, why not just have a heart-to-heart with your farrier? Occum's Razor is alive and well. :)

[Posting Trot]

I'm pretty sure I heard somewhere that Lee Harvey Oswald was a farrier (>snark<).

[BornToRide]

I applaud your intent to educate yourself, but you won't find that education on this forum.
Wow - that seems to be a rather limited view of the world. You just tried to educate her, did you not??!! You will find education EVERYWHERE as long as you apply critical thinking to what you read! :yes:

You've already got sombody in this thread trying to feed you bogus information and junk science on proprioception (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception). Don't step in it!Wonder how much feeling you still have when you wear cloves and shoes because it definitely numbs the perception of the hand and foot....hmmmmmmm, you must be superman if this does not affect you:D

[JHUshoer20]

Why not educate yourself by studying hoof care from a reputable source of information?

You could start with a good book:

http://www.amazon.com/Maximum-Hoof-Power-Performance-Management/dp/0876059647

Then your discussion with your farrier would be informed and intelligent instead of your information being based on the "opinions" of other laypeople who probably don't know any more aout hoof care than you do.

You've already got sombody in this thread trying to feed you bogus information and junk science on proprioception (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception). Don't step in it!


I applaud your intent to educate yourself, but you won't find that education on this forum. After you hit the stacks and take a look at Dr. O'Grady's website for some background, why not just have a heart-to-heart with your farrier? Occum's Razor is alive and well. :)

As usual I find myself in agreement with Mssrs Bloomer and Stovall.

If you are looking for serious and reputable information this and similar such websites are the last place to be looking.

Ditto's to Tom B on that proprioception BS.
George

[Walela]

Has a horse owner I say do what you intended to do read, read read.;)..


The following web site as far as I'm concerned is for the SHOER...
http://www.equipodiatry.com/:no::eek:

The bare foot sites have great info...Medical site are good too. The following is a good page to read..
http://www.hoofdoctor.net/page/page/3348638.htm..

[edit]

Your concerned about the heels, I have not learned much on that for SHOEING;)..because we are barefoot, the only way we'll have shoes is if the Doc orders it....:eek:...
A lot of folks don't like Pete Ramey but, we are adults and can figure out what doesn't sound right (after we get the basics), Pete's site talks to the Owner and the shoer...

http://www.hoofrehab.com/hoof%20articles%20by%20Pete%20Ramey.htm

I'm wish you well on your journey...

[Walela]

Oh I forgot to add. food for thought:

Farrier trims a horse that forges...solves problem....

Barefoot Trimmer comes in does her thing on the same horse that forges...solves problem the first time around and does not trim the foot flat....:cool:...

[Tom Stovall]

Walela in gray, stuff deleted

Has a horse owner I say do what you intended to do read, read read.;)..

Quantity is a poor substitute for quality. It's not how much one reads, it's what one reads that counts in terms of the acquisition of knowledge.

The following web site as far as I'm concerned is for the SHOER...
http://www.equipodiatry.com/:no::eek:

Dr O'Grady's annotated website considers the virtues of various appliances as well as bare feet, a fact that damns it out of hand among the lunitic fringe of the barefoot movement. Small wonder you find it unpalatable.

The bare foot sites have great info...Medical site are good too. The following is a good page to read..
http://www.hoofdoctor.net/page/page/3348638.htm..

Savoldi is a farrier who has a theory based on in vitro observations. His hypotheses haven't been tested in vivo, and he makes no pretense of their being tested.

[edit]

A lot of folks don't like Pete Ramey but, we are adults and can figure out what doesn't sound right (after we get the basics), Pete's site talks to the Owner and the shoer...

If you really are an adult, perhaps you might consider how the term "critical thinking" applies to Ramey's version of hoof care.

http://www.hoofrehab.com/hoof%20articles%20by%20Pete%20Ramey.htm

Dollars to donuts, you can't tell the difference between any of the many designer trims and those described in Dollar or Lungwitz - but don't let reality interfere with your public display of personal ignorance. :)

[Kaeleer]

I'm going to try to stay away from the barefoot vs shoeing debate, because I don't think it has relevance to the OP's question, really.

I'm married to a farrier / trimmer (and yes, I use the term interchangably because his practice is pretty much 50/50). He is far happier to have a client ask him a question, so that he can address whatever is on the client's mind, rather than have the client run off and find another farrier.

Having said that, there are ways and means to approach this. The problem with posting a question like this on a BB is you get the usual "Oh, he's a farrier, ergo he's an asshole and you should fire him anyway" responses. I'm also a professional. My clients question me, but there are ways and means to go about it. Don't come to me with something you saw on a recent episode of LA Law and expect me to be as patient as if you simply said "why?"

In other words : if what you want to know is WHY your horse's heels look like that, then ask "why?" If you don't understand the answer, ask him to explain it. If necessary, get him to draw pictures (my husband still has to draw pictures for me, because I am totally mentally challenged when it comes to understanding him otherwise).

FWIW, education is only worth something if there is no agenda behind it, so consider very carefully where you source your information. If it sounds like religion, chances are it is. If it sounds as if it's trying to sell you something, chances are it is.

[shakeytails]

I can never understand some people's reluctance to speak to their farriers...I just do not get it.

I don't understand, either. 99% of the time I just let the farrier do his job as he sees fit, but I've asked/told farriers to trim certain horses in a certain way before- never had a problem, and I'm pretty blunt about it. I also don't hesitate to ask my trainer and/or farrier about any change in show shoes... though it seems that on the rare occasion a change is made that I don't like, they don't like either and it's corrected. Just ask, the worst that could happen is you'll have to find a new farrier.

[Walela]

Mr. Stovall,
First of all I was taught to respect my elders and I'll not argue with you.. I will say the statement."If you really are an adult", does sound childish... second of all the knowledge that you have will die with you...Third how can you as an older adult judge someone's opinion and things that they seen .. I never claimed to be farrier or Trimmer..I have personnely HAD one of your finest CJF Farrier/ CFJ test Exaimer (retired) tending our horses and and several our peoples horses in our neighbor hood and he done a piss poor job.. dressing the hoof is (my opinion) all apart of the process... These folks around put him in the road fast.... He has written and published several articiles on trimming hoofs....The old saying walk a mile in my shoe...I'm just like the OP, in the learning process..By the way no disrecept intend as to the sex of the Trimmer/Farrier.. I say it as I see it...And no, if you must know we don't have disposalable income to by a horse/s..But when you see a horse half dead and you do have a GOOD heart and want to try to do something about...Been there done that...
From what I've seen and read I admire the hell out of Dr O'Grady...As a Farrier you should know that the website has been worded toward the Farrier..
I offend wonder why you guys (Farriers) get a bad attitude when some speaks of learning why you do this and that...Would you go to your Dr and just lay/sit there and let him do what ever he wants to, to you without asking you questions .It appears to me that you feel that you are inferor to some folks. I don't need an answer to the or anything for that matter...Living in a small world in fine for some folks..

I have followed a lot of your teaching and admire your work but, you have one hell of an attitude sometimes, not just with me but all the way around..
No I don't write eloquint as you do but, I tend to get my point across...

Have a good day

[Rick Burten]

Mr. Stovall,
First of all I was taught to respect my elders and I'll not argue with you..

What does respecting one's elders have to do with engaging in discourse with them? Perhaps your education was/is incomplete.............

I will say the statement."If you really are an adult", does sound childish..

But only to a child........

second of all the knowledge that you have will die with you...

Demonstrably and regularly, proven incorrect.

Third how can you as an older adult judge someone's opinion and things that they seen ..

You just don't get it, do you? Besides, what does being an 'older adult' have to do with it?

I never claimed to be farrier or Trimmer..

There is a God........

I have personnely HAD one of your finest CJF Farrier/ CFJ test Exaimer (retired) tending our horses and and several our peoples horses in our neighbor hood and he done a piss poor job.. dressing the hoof is (my opinion) all apart of the process... These folks around put him in the road fast....

Mushroom fertilizer!! Were that the case, he wouldn't still be in business. Besides, with your demonstrable lack of knowledge, you are in no position to offer comment about the quality of the work performed.

He has written and published several articiles on trimming hoofs....

Have you read them? Do you agree or disagree with them? Why? In which publications might these articles be found? Does he "practice what he preaches"?

The old saying walk a mile in my shoe...I'm just like the OP, in the learning process.

Then perhaps it would be wise if you remained silent and were thought a fool, rather than opening your mouth and confirming the observation.

By the way no disrecept intend as to the sex of the Trimmer/Farrier..

Again, what does that have to do with the subject at hand?

I say it as I see it...

Rule #1: When you find yourself deep in a hole, stop digging.
Rule#2. When that hole is in a pile of mushroom fertilizer and the top of the hole is level with your upper lip, keep your mouth shut......

And no, if you must know we don't have disposalable income to by a horse/s..But when you see a horse half dead and you do have a GOOD heart and want to try to do something about...Been there done that...

Have you ever considered that if you can't afford them you shouldn't buy/own them?

From what I've seen and read I admire the hell out of Dr O'Grady...As a Farrier you should know that the website has been worded toward the Farrier..

Actually, its worded towards anyone who has more than one or two operant specks of gray matter.

I offend wonder why you guys (Farriers) get a bad attitude when some speaks of learning why you do this and that...

You did mean "often" rather than "offend", though offend, in the context you use it, could be construed as accurate......

Besides, we(farriers) don't get offended when someone is honestly trying to learn, but when TSS is on display and it is evident that it will remain the operating condition of the individual, well, the rest you might say, is history.....

Would you go to your Dr and just lay/sit there and let him do what ever he wants to, to you without asking you questions

I hope you actually meant that I would be asking my doctor questions rather than as you posited it. That being the case, I let the doctor do his/her job and only question him/her when there is something I don't understand or than might concern me. But I don't question every move s/he makes while I am in his/her care.

.It appears to me that you feel that you are inferor to some folks.

Bro. Stovall? ROTFLMFAO!! Thank you for bringing a smile to my face.

I don't need an answer to the or anything for that matter...Living in a small world in fine for some folks..

Its good you know your place in the natural(if not unnatural) order of things. That being the case, why are you trying to improve your standing in the hierarchy?

I have followed a lot of your teaching and admire your work but, you have one hell of an attitude sometimes, not just with me but all the way around..

Yes he does. And he's earned it. What's your excuse?

No I don't write eloquint as you do but, I tend to get my point across...

That's "eloquent" and if your point is a cross, how can it be a point :confused: LOL!

Have a good day

Why thank you. Fact is though, I really don't need your permission or direction to do so. Go figure......

[Larbear]

Having said that, there are ways and means to approach this. The problem with posting a question like this on a BB is you get the usual "Oh, he's a farrier, ergo he's an asshole and you should fire him anyway" responses. I'm also a professional. My clients question me, but there are ways and means to go about it. Don't come to me with something you saw on a recent episode of LA Law and expect me to be as patient as if you simply said "why?"


Well, haven't really seen any posts outright dissing the farrier nor cries of "fire him anyways". The fact that there are a lot of threads where people are asking questions about the feet demonstrate that yeh, a lot of people are uncomfortable about approaching their farrier. And why? Cuz it seems you need some sort of script so they don't get all impatient. I really don't see why you can't ask a question and imo, I don't see what difference it makes what brings up the question in the first place...whether it's something you heard from an individual, a professional, or ran across on *gasp* the internet.

[Tom Stovall]

Walela in gray

First of all I was taught to respect my elders and I'll not argue with you.. I will say the statement."If you really are an adult", does sound childish...

It was a fair question: Are you an adult? Your generalizations, phrasing, and use of logical fallacies strongly suggest immaturity. My apologies if you've attained majority, it was an honest mistake.

second of all the knowledge that you have will die with you...

One hates to disappoint, but over the years, I've done a bit of writing as well as countless seminars, wet labs, lectures, and demonstrations for everybody from 4-H kids to Texas A&M faculty veterinarians. Admittedly, I'm a bit of a show dog and I'm not the least bit bashful, so what little I know about foot care has probably infected a few others.

Third how can you as an older adult judge someone's opinion and things that they seen ..

Judging the validity of an opinion is done by comparing one's personal experience with that of whomever is doing the expressing. My experience, your expression.

I never claimed to be farrier or Trimmer..I have personnely HAD one of your finest CJF Farrier/ CFJ test Exaimer (retired) tending our horses and and several our peoples horses in our neighbor hood and he done a piss poor job.. dressing the hoof is (my opinion) all apart of the process...

So what? Even if it were true, forming a rigid opinion about every member of a trade on the basis of the performance of a single individual is a great example of "stupid is as stupid does."

These folks around put him in the road fast.... He has written and published several articiles on trimming hoofs....

I guess that settles it.

The old saying walk a mile in my shoe...I'm just like the OP, in the learning process..

Not quite: you apparently think you know it all.

By the way no disrecept intend as to the sex of the Trimmer/Farrier.. I say it as I see it...

Your remark alleging the superiority of female farriers was sexist and prejudiced. It's a bit late for damage control: If that's really the way you see things, you might want to have a little talk with your health care professional.

And no, if you must know we don't have disposalable income to by a horse/s..But when you see a horse half dead and you do have a GOOD heart and want to try to do something about...Been there done that...

If you're not making a living with your horses and don't have sufficient disposable income, you can't afford horses. Period! Doubtless, the horse was "mistreated" and you "rescued" him from someplace horrific at great personal sacrifice; on the other hand, self-aggrandizing tales of personal altruism tend to be mostly bullshit.

From what I've seen and read I admire the hell out of Dr O'Grady...As a Farrier you should know that the website has been worded toward the Farrier..

As a student of hoof care, I find Dr. O'Grady's website to be a great reference source. Unfortunately, when confronted with some of the pathologies on the site, if one does not have the necessary knowledge and motor skills with which to put the recommended mechanical treatments into practice, then one must either denigrate the website or make excuses for one's ineptitude in order to salve one's ego.

I offend wonder why you guys (Farriers) get a bad attitude when some speaks of learning why you do this and that...

Do broad, sweeping, meaningless, generalizations run in your family? I know quite a few farriers, but I don't know any who fail to answer questions about why they do things a certain way - it comes with the territory.

Would you go to your Dr and just lay/sit there and let him do what ever he wants to, to you without asking you questions.

Your question is a logical fallacy in which the premise presumes the conclusion to be demonstrated. As in, "When did you quit beating your wife?"

It appears to me that you feel that you are inferor to some folks.

LMAO! My motor skills have degenerated to the point that I've lost a step or two, but you'll be happy to learn that I'm just as arrogant as I ever was.

I don't need an answer to the or anything for that matter...Living in a small world in fine for some folks..

You're not making a helluva lot of sense, would you care to rephrase?

I have followed a lot of your teaching and admire your work but, you have one hell of an attitude sometimes, not just with me but all the way around..

Obviously, I don't suffer fools all that well.

No I don't write eloquint as you do but, I tend to get my point across...

Your point? :)

[JHUshoer20]

Would you go to your Dr and just lay/sit there and let him do what ever he wants to, to you without asking you questions
Actually yes I would. I'd never think to try to tell a Dr his job. If for some reason I lost confidence in that practitioner I'd find another one that I had confidence in but I'd never question him because to do so would imply that I didn't think he knew what the heck he was doing.

Doctors are a good example however because they are intelligent enough NOT to put step by step instructions over the internet as to how to do your own appendectomies at home.

They also are licensed by medical boards thus they don't have Orderlies, Aids, Nurses and PE's out there practicing medicine convincing the gullible that their better qualified and a beter choice than real Drs:yes:
George

[Walela]

Georgie boy, no one ask you:winkgrin:..
Go haul some horses;)

[Rick Burten]

Why should George or anyone else wait to comment or not comment on something you or anyone else has written?

After all, you get to control the content of what you post, but you don't get to control who responds or how, or why.

Don't like the heat? Stay the hell out of the kitchen......

[Walela]

My kitchen is air condition.....:)

[Rick Burten]

Then its time you learned how to cook.

[Moderator 1]

We started to edit the off-topic exchange that began the current trajectory of this thread, but instead of continuing that task, we're opting to post a few reminders:

Avoid the personal commentary, as well as inflammatory generalizations that almost without fail will lead down a path of zingers exchanged between posters. If there's an inappropriate, off-topic post, report it.

Stay focused on the original topic. We actually moved this thread to Horse Care from the eventing forum so that the OP could get some input from farriers, etc.

She's looking for input on how to communicate concerns with her horse care provider and resources for furthering her education. Nobody should be making this into an attack against the OP, farriers, trimmers, other posters, etc.

Let's help her out with some information. We're not all likely to share the same opinions or have the same answers to a given question <:lol:>, but those different opinions should be able to occupy the same space and foster productive discussion without the personal, off-topic back-and-forth.

In general, though you may not agree with a given approach to a problem, we'd hope that anyone visiting this site at least thinks they're acting in the best interests of the horses they're responsible for. To insinuate otherwise--whether specifically or generally--is of course going to get hackles raised. So, please discuss; don't point fingers.

Thanks,
Mod 1

[2DogsFarm]

Why not just be honest?
Tell him you noticed a lot of horses you've seen seem to have more heel and ask why your horse shouldn't be trimmed the same way.
If he can give you a reasonable answer at least you know he can discuss this sort of issue.

Hopefully he is not the Prima Donna-type farrier like one I had who would talk only to the trainer (even though I wrote the checks).
Yeah...and Mrs Rockefeller talks only to God.... :mad:

[Tom Bloomer]

Wow - that seems to be a rather limited view of the world. You just tried to educate her, did you not??!! You will find education EVERYWHERE as long as you apply critical thinking to what you read! :yes:

Wonder how much feeling you still have when you wear cloves and shoes because it definitely numbs the perception of the hand and foot....hmmmmmmm, you must be superman if this does not affect you:D
Your confusion between the words "perception" and "proprioception" is prima facia evidence that you are facing a steep learning curve in regards to "critical thinking" about neurological motor functions.

Far as I know, the sobriety test for proprioception is valid evidence in a court of law whether or not the accused was wearing gloves at the time the arresting officer administered the test. But, you could try it! If you ever get pulled over for a DUI, put your gloves on and see if you can beat the charge. "Your Honor, I couldnt touch my fingers to my nose with my eyes closed because I was wearing gloves." You could call Dr. Bowker as an expert witness on neurological motor coordination and proprioceptive impairment . . .

[Tom Stovall]

2DogsFarm in gray, stuff deleted

Why not just be honest?

Honesty can be a rare commodity around a horse barn.

Tell him you noticed a lot of horses you've seen seem to have more heel and ask why your horse shouldn't be trimmed the same way.

The question presumes the possibility of such a trim, something most assuredly not in evidence.

If he can give you a reasonable answer at least you know he can discuss this sort of issue.

Without first attaining some meaningful background (not the nonsensical, anti-scientific, propaganda found on many the barefoot websites), the OP can't possibly know whether the farrier's answer is reasonable or ridiculous.

Hopefully he is not the Prima Donna-type farrier like one I had who would talk only to the trainer (even though I wrote the checks).

Most farriers working primarily for trainers usually don't spend a helluva lot of time talking to owners because the owners are seldom at the barn while the farrier's working; depending on the discipline, a farrier can cash an owner's checks for years without ever meeting the owner.

Yeah...and Mrs Rockefeller talks only to God.... :mad:

If memory serves, it was the Lowells, not the Rockerfeller's, who had seniority in terms of having a direct line to the deity. :)

"I am from the town of Boston,
The land of the bean and the cod,
Where Cabots speak only to Lowells,
And Lowells speak only to God..."

[Moderator 1]

We've removed some posts. Stay on topic.

[grayarabs]

Can the OP post photos of the hooves in question?